i wont buy, at least with free testing, another mmo from sony online. i sure as hell wont buy another mmo from blizzard, wow got so messed up with burning crusade ive lost all faith in blizzard hence forth. and i dont know about funcom, i liked aoc this spring but then the tier 2 raids were so broken and unplayable it was rediculous how they didnt fix it. (not like we couldnt figure out how to kill them broken but the actual zones would crash or kick half the raid mid boss fight so it was literally 100% impossible to complete the content).
SoE (MxO, EQ, EQ2, SWG) I think i've had enough of. NCSoft is almost there, I did like City of Heroes for a while, and Lineage 2 seemed like it could have been cool with some effort, but most of their products I wouldn't have thought about buying anyway so I can't really say I've been burned.
I see Mythic mentioned a few times, most likely from WAR vets, while DAoC vets have alot more right to complain. Either way, Mythic never intentionally screwed over their playerbase, unlike SOE.
Oh yes, they did. They released a big bowl of crap while claiming repeatedly it was complete and only needed 'polish'. They nerfed xp right before release. They shoved the ward system in our faces after release.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Never gonna blacklist a developer, every so often they may actually make a really great game. But naturally a few I will be extra wary about.
Funcom. Anarchy Online had arguably the worst launch ever in MMO history, but they actually managed to get the game playable after 2-3 months. Age of Conan had a much better launch but they skipped out on the content of the game. It quickly became a grind since they didn't have enough quests or instances. It also didn't deliver on what the box claimed. Sieges didn't work, the AH had to be closed down due to exploits etc. So when it comes to Funcom, I will beta test their games but won't buy them until several months after release cause their games are usually unfinished until then.
SOE. I actually loved Everquest 2 and didn't mind the limited Station Cash shop since really the stuff there don't make you powerful, you might get to 80 a week before me with the buyable xp potions but that don't matter much. SWG, here people wrongly just accuse SOE for ruining the game, but truly you should blame Lucas Arts more. They gave SOE free reigns to totally remake the game since they thought they could be WoW in space. Sigil was the ones responsible for the entire Vanguard mess, SOE just stepped in and saved it. Looking forward to trying both The Agency and DC Universe Online from them. Still hope they get rid of Smedley.
The developer I have the most problems with is Turbine. Their games are not bad just uninspired which is really strange considering the ip's they have worked on. how can you fail with Lord of the Rings really? That game should be second to none, but the game play was just so so. not bad, not excellent just luke warm. Same with Dungeons & Dragons Online. They made a mistake there by not going with a more well known setting such as Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance or even Planescape really. Had they taken any setting besides Eberron it would have turned out better. Still it's a fun game and I plan to play the f2p version.
Sic semper tyrannis "Democracy broke down, not when the Union ceased to be agreeable to all its constituent States, but when it was upheld, like any other Empire, by force of arms."
There is no company out there that has done me so wrong I would black list them. The closest I would have come would have been Funcom but they have improved AOC so much they redeemed themsleves enough I will take a look at Secret World and still enjoy AOC.
I have been one of the lucky ones who have not expereienced many of the challenges or issues others have. I also think that many folks bring some of the issues on themself and blame the publisher/ Developer. (IE: Pre-order game on last day of beta and are pissed bacuset hey did not get the beta email in time to try the game).
Also, I have, at times, probably been in blissful ignorance to some issues because I just don't care that much. I have more important things in life than having angst over one of my hobbies. I also tend to be a half full person. I would probably never consider who I WOULD NOT buy a game from and rather look to those I WOULD buy a game from.
Originally posted by wolfmann I'd rather miss out on one good game, than being treated as dirt, and served half working games, and have to deal with customer support thats more eager to get your creditcard number than helping you out. I'm not that addicted to gaming, or shinies that I will "HAVE" it no matter what.
That's your choice of course, but I find that line of reasoning somewhat silly.
If, for example, SOE was to announce that they had acquired Star Wars: The Old Republic from Bioware/EA and would be taking charge of the general running of it once it had been released; it wouldn't kill my interest in the game.
I'd certainly not be enthusiastic at the prospect, but I'd continue to follow the game and, if it still looked appealing, wouldn't hesitate to buy it at release. If it sucked then I'd just not play it.
We roll the dice on every MMO we purchase at release and the worst that can happen is that we waste the cost of a retail box a couple of times a year. It's hardly the end of the world.
Sure we roll the dice on every purchase, but past history is a very good indicator of what you are likely to encounter with a company. Especially a company that has a long track record of repeating the same mistakes over and over.
If a company has a habit of buying mmos from other companies and driving them into the ground, there isn't much reason to expect anything different the third time around.
It would be like expecting funcom to have one of the most polished, content complete mmo releases in history. While it could happen, the historical trend suggests that it will not.
SOE maybe... They ruined one of the best sandbox and PvE games ever: SWG and Vanguard respectively.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration ______\m/_____ LordOfDarkDesire
EA ruined UO with thier AoS exp and thus ruined a perfect game, Funcom for AO and Aoc both were really bad games from the start, NCsoft for Tabula Rasa good game with alot of great things flushed down the toliet, Mythic for thinking pvp is the only thing in the world people like to do in MMO's And Soe ohhh SOE the things they have done over the years in my opnion ar criminal. From EQ the 2 months were some peoples cards got charged 129.99 by mistake then took them almost 6 months to refund the money to SWG where they took in my opnion one of the best MMO's of our time and killed it. Fact is every company seems to make a mistake hell Cryptic right now by letting some players that pre ordered early start the game and the other 80% that pre ordered months ago sit and wait..
I can go on for hours about back ally things these companys have done in the end no one company is great but a game can be (Here is to hope) Lets all hope Bioware Comes out and does an amazing job with Tor...
SOE for me too. It is unlikely I will ever buy a game made by them again unless they come out with something completely amazing.
Cryptic, Mythic and Turbine I am just very cautious with and will wait until a few months after launch to see what people say after staying in the game for a while.
For me, it would be Blizzard. The only game I liked from them was "the lost vikings". Except for that, I found all their games to be severely overrated and boring.
Other than Blizzard...well...SOE won't ever get my money again.
------------------------------------------ Basil Fawlty: [to telephone operator] I've been trying to get through to the speaking clock... Well, it's engaged... Well, it's been engaged for ten minutes. How is this possible? My wife isn't talking to it.
I judge games on their own merits and not because of the developer they may come from. If I like a game I will play it. Judging games based on their developers is pure stupidity. I really don't care if game X was developed by a company that screwed up game Y. As long as game X is fun to play that is all that matters. If they find a way to screw up game X in the future than I will stop playing it and move on to something else. What I won't do is go on to a forum and whine and cry every chance I get that the company is evil because they screwed up game X. It's just a game after all and there are plenty more to play. Getting all worked up over a company because they screwed up their game is a complete waste of time and is stupidity at it's finest.
I will never buy a game from SOE or Jagex again... EVER. Boycott them both. LOL
It has everything to do with customer service... It is like this, You go eat at a restaurant, they spit in your food and give you crappy service.. Are you going back to eat there again? HELL NO! The same goes for games.
Judging games based on their developers is pure stupidity.
Bren
If you buy a coffee maker from a company and it continually breaks, the customer service was not helpful and it doesn't perform as advertised would you think it smart to buy another coffee maker from the same company?
What if you bought a car from a company and had nothing but but problems with everything and hundreds of thousands of other people had similar experiences with that model. Why would it be stupidity to judge the next vehicle they sell based on their previous products?
I would never call it stupidity to make an informed decision based on a companies history, especially when they might have a long history of doing the same things over and over again. Personally I think it is smart consumer sense to avoid problematic companies until they make efforts to show they have made changes to correct their problems.
I Personally I think it is smart consumer sense to avoid problematic companies until they make efforts to show they have made changes to correct their problems.
But if you never buy another product from them you will never know if they made that effort now will you. Your other arguments are mute since a real world product has little to do with software. Game companies change dev teams like most people change their underwear. The chances of the same exact same dev team making two different games are slim to none. This would be like that coffee maker company or the car maker replacing half of their production staff in between each coffee pot or car. The comparison really doesn't hold up.
As for the customer service part of it I have yet to see a MMO company that didn't have shitty customer service. Even Blizzard and Turbine have loads of problems in this department and they are considered by most to be the best. If you want good customer service you have the wrong hobby as it's hard to come by with any of these companies. Every single major MMO company has already been mentioned in this thread alone. You rule all of those out and who are you going to buy your games from? Like I said... stupidity at it's finest.
Edit: Now that doesn't mean that I buy games without trying them first or at the very least seeing some good reviews. This is just common sense and everyone should do this. Also I would never pre-order a game or pay for more than a 1 month sub especially if the game is a MMO. This is even stupider than judging the game on the company as you never know how a game is going to change by the time it releases or how it will be a month from now. If your smart you never get burned as you never set yourself up for the fire.
I'm surprised by the amount of people saying who the developer is doesn't matter. Of course it matters.
If you bought a car and it turned out to be very reliable and last a long time, wouldn't you first consider that company for your next car? I would and do. And if you buy a car and it constantly has problems and costs a lot of money to keep running, wouldn't you avoid that car company in the future?
Same for TVs, PCs, Appliances, mattresses, airlines, etc etc etc. So why in the gaming world would it suddenly be normaly to not judge a product by it's company. Just like every other market that exists, a video game company is likely to produce the same level of product time and time again. So when you start noticing that SOE puts out crap, or EA puts out crap, you quickly learn to not waste your money on crap.
Unless of course you don't use your brain and just keep saying "Well maybe next time it will be good, oh guess not, maybe next time, or next time........" That makes far less sense then not buying from a company who puts out crap.
But hey who is to argue when the country that many of us post from had an economy collapse from people and companies doing stupid things repeatedly, and then the government bailed them all out so they could do stupid things again. Can't expect people to use their head and learn that when a company screws up to be done with it and move on to a different one.
I judge games on their own merits and not because of the developer they may come from. If I like a game I will play it. Judging games based on their developers is pure stupidity. I really don't care if game X was developed by a company that screwed up game Y. As long as game X is fun to play that is all that matters. If they find a way to screw up game X in the future than I will stop playing it and move on to something else. What I won't do is go on to a forum and whine and cry every chance I get that the company is evil because they screwed up game X. It's just a game after all and there are plenty more to play. Getting all worked up over a company because they screwed up their game is a complete waste of time and is stupidity at it's finest.
Bren
I think that is pretty much it.
I guess what I would say more from my personal view is... I won't buy ANY MMO unless I get to beta it or trial it.
I have purchased most MMO's that were relased... going back to Ultima Online. I just couldn't wait to try something else and to be honest I was pretty happy with most MMO's I tried (at least for a while).
In the last few years it has seemed more like flushing 100 dollars (becuase I have to buy at least two copies for the household) for 30 days... So my view changed to I want to see it... and make up my mind. Reviews and forums cannot tell you if you will personally enjoy a game.
So yes there are developers (mostly development companies) that have pissed me off. Yet if they made a game I really enjoyed.. I would play it.
Anyone who blindly blacklists a publisher or devoloper doesnt really understand how this industry works.
Go ahead and assume every game X devoloper releases will be bad because of their past and you will only end up missing out on good games.
I suggestion you just devolop a more indepth screening process, that way you dont end up buying crappy games and regretting it.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Comments
i wont buy, at least with free testing, another mmo from sony online. i sure as hell wont buy another mmo from blizzard, wow got so messed up with burning crusade ive lost all faith in blizzard hence forth. and i dont know about funcom, i liked aoc this spring but then the tier 2 raids were so broken and unplayable it was rediculous how they didnt fix it. (not like we couldnt figure out how to kill them broken but the actual zones would crash or kick half the raid mid boss fight so it was literally 100% impossible to complete the content).
SoE (MxO, EQ, EQ2, SWG) I think i've had enough of. NCSoft is almost there, I did like City of Heroes for a while, and Lineage 2 seemed like it could have been cool with some effort, but most of their products I wouldn't have thought about buying anyway so I can't really say I've been burned.
Oh yes, they did. They released a big bowl of crap while claiming repeatedly it was complete and only needed 'polish'. They nerfed xp right before release. They shoved the ward system in our faces after release.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
1. Mythic (mark jacobs as a individual i wont touch a game with his name on it either)
2. Funcom - i had fun playing it but the lie's the retarded forum moderation made me cancel and never look back.
3. Sigil
Never gonna blacklist a developer, every so often they may actually make a really great game. But naturally a few I will be extra wary about.
Funcom. Anarchy Online had arguably the worst launch ever in MMO history, but they actually managed to get the game playable after 2-3 months. Age of Conan had a much better launch but they skipped out on the content of the game. It quickly became a grind since they didn't have enough quests or instances. It also didn't deliver on what the box claimed. Sieges didn't work, the AH had to be closed down due to exploits etc. So when it comes to Funcom, I will beta test their games but won't buy them until several months after release cause their games are usually unfinished until then.
SOE. I actually loved Everquest 2 and didn't mind the limited Station Cash shop since really the stuff there don't make you powerful, you might get to 80 a week before me with the buyable xp potions but that don't matter much. SWG, here people wrongly just accuse SOE for ruining the game, but truly you should blame Lucas Arts more. They gave SOE free reigns to totally remake the game since they thought they could be WoW in space. Sigil was the ones responsible for the entire Vanguard mess, SOE just stepped in and saved it. Looking forward to trying both The Agency and DC Universe Online from them. Still hope they get rid of Smedley.
The developer I have the most problems with is Turbine. Their games are not bad just uninspired which is really strange considering the ip's they have worked on. how can you fail with Lord of the Rings really? That game should be second to none, but the game play was just so so. not bad, not excellent just luke warm. Same with Dungeons & Dragons Online. They made a mistake there by not going with a more well known setting such as Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance or even Planescape really. Had they taken any setting besides Eberron it would have turned out better. Still it's a fun game and I plan to play the f2p version.
Mythic and EA
I will never again play another MMO from SOE.
Sony Online entertainment.
Sic semper tyrannis "Democracy broke down, not when the Union
ceased to be agreeable to all its constituent States, but when it was upheld, like any other Empire, by force of arms."
SOE
NSoft
Aventurine
EA
=============================
I have a soap box and I am not afraid to use it.
This.
MMORPG History:
Playing - EVE Online.
Played (Retired) - AO, SWG, MxO, WoW, RFO, SoR, CoX, EQ2, GW, L2, Vanguard, LotRO, AoC, TCoS, Aion.
Favourite MMO - Pre-CU SWG, 3 Years, 4 Accounts, 2 Pre-CU Jedi (1 Pre-9).
Awaiting - Star Wars: The Old Republic, The Secret World, Earthrise.
There is no company out there that has done me so wrong I would black list them. The closest I would have come would have been Funcom but they have improved AOC so much they redeemed themsleves enough I will take a look at Secret World and still enjoy AOC.
I have been one of the lucky ones who have not expereienced many of the challenges or issues others have. I also think that many folks bring some of the issues on themself and blame the publisher/ Developer. (IE: Pre-order game on last day of beta and are pissed bacuset hey did not get the beta email in time to try the game).
Also, I have, at times, probably been in blissful ignorance to some issues because I just don't care that much. I have more important things in life than having angst over one of my hobbies. I also tend to be a half full person. I would probably never consider who I WOULD NOT buy a game from and rather look to those I WOULD buy a game from.
That's your choice of course, but I find that line of reasoning somewhat silly.
If, for example, SOE was to announce that they had acquired Star Wars: The Old Republic from Bioware/EA and would be taking charge of the general running of it once it had been released; it wouldn't kill my interest in the game.
I'd certainly not be enthusiastic at the prospect, but I'd continue to follow the game and, if it still looked appealing, wouldn't hesitate to buy it at release. If it sucked then I'd just not play it.
We roll the dice on every MMO we purchase at release and the worst that can happen is that we waste the cost of a retail box a couple of times a year. It's hardly the end of the world.
Sure we roll the dice on every purchase, but past history is a very good indicator of what you are likely to encounter with a company. Especially a company that has a long track record of repeating the same mistakes over and over.
If a company has a habit of buying mmos from other companies and driving them into the ground, there isn't much reason to expect anything different the third time around.
It would be like expecting funcom to have one of the most polished, content complete mmo releases in history. While it could happen, the historical trend suggests that it will not.
SOE maybe... They ruined one of the best sandbox and PvE games ever: SWG and Vanguard respectively.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
______\m/_____
LordOfDarkDesire
I think every Company has done something stupid
EA ruined UO with thier AoS exp and thus ruined a perfect game, Funcom for AO and Aoc both were really bad games from the start, NCsoft for Tabula Rasa good game with alot of great things flushed down the toliet, Mythic for thinking pvp is the only thing in the world people like to do in MMO's And Soe ohhh SOE the things they have done over the years in my opnion ar criminal. From EQ the 2 months were some peoples cards got charged 129.99 by mistake then took them almost 6 months to refund the money to SWG where they took in my opnion one of the best MMO's of our time and killed it. Fact is every company seems to make a mistake hell Cryptic right now by letting some players that pre ordered early start the game and the other 80% that pre ordered months ago sit and wait..
I can go on for hours about back ally things these companys have done in the end no one company is great but a game can be (Here is to hope) Lets all hope Bioware Comes out and does an amazing job with Tor...
SOE for me too. It is unlikely I will ever buy a game made by them again unless they come out with something completely amazing.
Cryptic, Mythic and Turbine I am just very cautious with and will wait until a few months after launch to see what people say after staying in the game for a while.
For me, it would be Blizzard. The only game I liked from them was "the lost vikings". Except for that, I found all their games to be severely overrated and boring.
Other than Blizzard...well...SOE won't ever get my money again.
------------------------------------------
Basil Fawlty: [to telephone operator] I've been trying to get through to the speaking clock... Well, it's engaged... Well, it's been engaged for ten minutes. How is this possible? My wife isn't talking to it.
I judge games on their own merits and not because of the developer they may come from. If I like a game I will play it. Judging games based on their developers is pure stupidity. I really don't care if game X was developed by a company that screwed up game Y. As long as game X is fun to play that is all that matters. If they find a way to screw up game X in the future than I will stop playing it and move on to something else. What I won't do is go on to a forum and whine and cry every chance I get that the company is evil because they screwed up game X. It's just a game after all and there are plenty more to play. Getting all worked up over a company because they screwed up their game is a complete waste of time and is stupidity at it's finest.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
I will never buy a game from SOE or Jagex again... EVER. Boycott them both. LOL
It has everything to do with customer service... It is like this, You go eat at a restaurant, they spit in your food and give you crappy service.. Are you going back to eat there again? HELL NO! The same goes for games.
I'll never, every give a dime to SOE again. The reasons are pretty obvious and well known.
I'd be very very cautious before giving any money to Funcom again.
And frankly, Cryptic's recent RMT in Champions Online has put me off from buying any of their products either.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
If you buy a coffee maker from a company and it continually breaks, the customer service was not helpful and it doesn't perform as advertised would you think it smart to buy another coffee maker from the same company?
What if you bought a car from a company and had nothing but but problems with everything and hundreds of thousands of other people had similar experiences with that model. Why would it be stupidity to judge the next vehicle they sell based on their previous products?
I would never call it stupidity to make an informed decision based on a companies history, especially when they might have a long history of doing the same things over and over again. Personally I think it is smart consumer sense to avoid problematic companies until they make efforts to show they have made changes to correct their problems.
But if you never buy another product from them you will never know if they made that effort now will you. Your other arguments are mute since a real world product has little to do with software. Game companies change dev teams like most people change their underwear. The chances of the same exact same dev team making two different games are slim to none. This would be like that coffee maker company or the car maker replacing half of their production staff in between each coffee pot or car. The comparison really doesn't hold up.
As for the customer service part of it I have yet to see a MMO company that didn't have shitty customer service. Even Blizzard and Turbine have loads of problems in this department and they are considered by most to be the best. If you want good customer service you have the wrong hobby as it's hard to come by with any of these companies. Every single major MMO company has already been mentioned in this thread alone. You rule all of those out and who are you going to buy your games from? Like I said... stupidity at it's finest.
Edit: Now that doesn't mean that I buy games without trying them first or at the very least seeing some good reviews. This is just common sense and everyone should do this. Also I would never pre-order a game or pay for more than a 1 month sub especially if the game is a MMO. This is even stupider than judging the game on the company as you never know how a game is going to change by the time it releases or how it will be a month from now. If your smart you never get burned as you never set yourself up for the fire.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
SOE
Not only for the poor choices the company head has made but in my experience the staff have been deceitful and corrupt.
PIRATE LORDS
I'm surprised by the amount of people saying who the developer is doesn't matter. Of course it matters.
If you bought a car and it turned out to be very reliable and last a long time, wouldn't you first consider that company for your next car? I would and do. And if you buy a car and it constantly has problems and costs a lot of money to keep running, wouldn't you avoid that car company in the future?
Same for TVs, PCs, Appliances, mattresses, airlines, etc etc etc. So why in the gaming world would it suddenly be normaly to not judge a product by it's company. Just like every other market that exists, a video game company is likely to produce the same level of product time and time again. So when you start noticing that SOE puts out crap, or EA puts out crap, you quickly learn to not waste your money on crap.
Unless of course you don't use your brain and just keep saying "Well maybe next time it will be good, oh guess not, maybe next time, or next time........" That makes far less sense then not buying from a company who puts out crap.
But hey who is to argue when the country that many of us post from had an economy collapse from people and companies doing stupid things repeatedly, and then the government bailed them all out so they could do stupid things again. Can't expect people to use their head and learn that when a company screws up to be done with it and move on to a different one.
I think that is pretty much it.
I guess what I would say more from my personal view is... I won't buy ANY MMO unless I get to beta it or trial it.
I have purchased most MMO's that were relased... going back to Ultima Online. I just couldn't wait to try something else and to be honest I was pretty happy with most MMO's I tried (at least for a while).
In the last few years it has seemed more like flushing 100 dollars (becuase I have to buy at least two copies for the household) for 30 days... So my view changed to I want to see it... and make up my mind. Reviews and forums cannot tell you if you will personally enjoy a game.
So yes there are developers (mostly development companies) that have pissed me off. Yet if they made a game I really enjoyed.. I would play it.
Anyone who blindly blacklists a publisher or devoloper doesnt really understand how this industry works.
Go ahead and assume every game X devoloper releases will be bad because of their past and you will only end up missing out on good games.
I suggestion you just devolop a more indepth screening process, that way you dont end up buying crappy games and regretting it.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson