I think the main argument against 'challenging' mmo's is that the old way was just a time-sink. I think people are forgetting something pretty pertinent. MMOs are a time-sink. You are playing to waste time or entertain yourself as time passes. So are you saying you are wasting your game time? Time you'd rather be using to race to the endgame, right?
I think maybe what people are saying is they used to enjoy the trip up, and you learned your character and other people through it, and in addition they found it more immersive having to look around a dark zone worried about a train of skeletons whacking you. What the 'time sink' people are describing is a desire to rip through the game so they can get to the "elite" endgame, something not so elite when newb zones are empty and most of the server is max level (because it takes a month).
Players are just saying they prefered spending their time in suspense, since if they screwed up, yes, it would be an inconvinience or 'time sink.' This kept their attention in the game. In WoW, you try to stay awake as you watch the download bar at the bottom fill up. Watch a movie while you grind! Its like a chore you are getting out of the way. In EQ players used to have to actually play the game to play the game. I think that is what players/posters are thinking on.
Playing: DO Trial, EVE 1 Day Buy a PLEX promo. Played: UO, EQ, AC, GW, WoW, CoX, EQ2, AoC, WURM Online, Ryzom, Eve Online, FE Trial Genres: 4x strategy, Sim Racing, American/Euro RPG, Fighters
I think the main argument against 'challenging' mmo's is that the old way was just a time-sink. I think people are forgetting something pretty pertinent. MMOs are a time-sink. You are playing to waste time or entertain yourself as time passes. So are you saying you are wasting your game time? Time you'd rather be using to race to the endgame, right?
I think maybe what people are saying is they used to enjoy the trip up, and you learned your character and other people through it, and in addition they found it more immersive having to look around a dark zone worried about a train of skeletons whacking you. What the 'time sink' people are describing is a desire to rip through the game so they can get to the "elite" endgame, something not so elite when newb zones are empty and most of the server is max level (because it takes a month).
Players are just saying they prefered spending their time in suspense, since if they screwed up, yes, it would be an inconvinience or 'time sink.' This kept their attention in the game. In WoW, you try to stay awake as you watch the download bar at the bottom fill up. Watch a movie while you grind! Its like a chore you are getting out of the way. In EQ players used to have to actually play the game to play the game. I think that is what players/posters are thinking on.
Great Observation.
I am guilty of getting swept up with all the cool addons to help simplify my game play so I can watch reruns of Family Guy while grinding out some simple quests. Multitasking FTL
I've recently returned back to EQ and I can say with 100% certainty that it is no less stupid than WoW. They are both equally crappy games. Even SWG, my first "kiss", turned out to be really, really horrible when I went to try out SWGemu.
I've come to realise that the whole MMORPG genre has always been a very bad game genre. They are very boring to play and the mechanics are hardly ever anything other than lame. Mediocre at best.
How did I realise this revelation? All my friends have quit playing them, but I still clinged to them. I realised that the fun I had was because I played them with friends; both people I met online and irl. Every single good memory I have of MMORPGs is of me and my bizarre antics with my friends.
And this takes us back to the problem with modern MMORPGs. The most recent new MMORPG I've played is Champions Online, and like most modern MMOs, it's so solo friendly that it actually hurts your XP to group with anyone. There's no need to play with others, thus no one does. I tried several times to spark up some conversation in the general chat, but rarely did anything come out of it.
In conclusion: maybe MMORPGs actually haven't gotten better or worse. I think that they are pretty much the same now as they were in the past. The only thing that I can see that has changed drastically is the mentality of the players. Without the players MMORPGs are just bad games with mechanics that feel so old and outdated that they make old atari games seem fresh and innovative. Which is what they pretty much are when you get down to it. Whether it's EQ or WoW, old or new, it doesn't really matter. Both suck and so does the genre.
I've recently returned back to EQ and I can say with 100% certainty that it is no less stupid than WoW. They are both equally crappy games. Even SWG, my first "kiss", turned out to be really, really horrible when I went to try out SWGemu. I've come to realise that the whole MMORPG genre has always been a very bad game genre. They are very boring to play and the mechanics are hardly ever anything other than lame. Mediocre at best. How did I realise this revelation? All my friends have quit playing them, but I still clinged to them. I realised that the fun I had was because I played them with friends; both people I met online and irl. Every single good memory I have of MMORPGs is of me and my bizarre antics with my friends. And this takes us back to the problem with modern MMORPGs. The most recent new MMORPG I've played is Champions Online, and like most modern MMOs, it's so solo friendly that it actually hurts your XP to group with anyone. There's no need to play with others, thus no one does. I tried several times to spark up some conversation in the general chat, but rarely did anything come out of it.
In conclusion: maybe MMORPGs actually haven't gotten better or worse. I think that they are pretty much the same now as they were in the past. The only thing that I can see that has changed drastically is the mentality of the players. Without the players MMORPGs are just bad games with mechanics that feel so old and outdated that they make old atari games seem fresh and innovative. Which is what they pretty much are when you get down to it. Whether it's EQ or WoW, old or new, it doesn't really matter. Both suck and so does the genre.
Hey I found a great deal on a '66 Ferrari that was sitting at a dealership. I was really excited since everyone said this particular model was great. It broke down on the ride home, and it wasn't even that fast. Ferrari sucks.
Seriously though, see what you mean about solo stuff, can make it boring.
Playing: DO Trial, EVE 1 Day Buy a PLEX promo. Played: UO, EQ, AC, GW, WoW, CoX, EQ2, AoC, WURM Online, Ryzom, Eve Online, FE Trial Genres: 4x strategy, Sim Racing, American/Euro RPG, Fighters
It's been 10 years since the release of Ultima: Online, back in good old 2009 we would have thought that by now games would be on such a level classics like Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, would pale in comparison. However it is now 2009, and most gamers who have played MMO's for any period of time would agree that nothing on the market today can even live up to these original releases. Nostalgia aside, when critically examining these games, it appears as though with each new release the games are being dumbed down; It reminds me alot of the Mike Judge movie: Idiocracy where overtime people became dumber and dumber as technology allowed them more and more luxeries. What I have been wondering is why no games with depth and challenge have been introduced to the market since 2003; The closest we have come is darkfall (don't get me started on that tangent) and in many ways I don't even feel as though, it has lived up to it's potential. Am I the only one who feels like this? Is that why there are no more deep challenging games on the market? What do you guys think?
Yes, you and a minority of the players. I started with UO & EQ and they *are* pale in comparison to the newer modern MMOs in terms of features and fun factor.
Is that why UO has Player-Housing, Taming, Player-Driven Economy, Skill-based system and plenty of more features which are vastly superior to modern day mmo's?
It's been 10 years since the release of Ultima: Online, back in good old 2009 we would have thought that by now games would be on such a level classics like Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, would pale in comparison. However it is now 2009, and most gamers who have played MMO's for any period of time would agree that nothing on the market today can even live up to these original releases. Nostalgia aside, when critically examining these games, it appears as though with each new release the games are being dumbed down; It reminds me alot of the Mike Judge movie: Idiocracy where overtime people became dumber and dumber as technology allowed them more and more luxeries. What I have been wondering is why no games with depth and challenge have been introduced to the market since 2003; The closest we have come is darkfall (don't get me started on that tangent) and in many ways I don't even feel as though, it has lived up to it's potential. Am I the only one who feels like this? Is that why there are no more deep challenging games on the market? What do you guys think?
Yes, you and a minority of the players. I started with UO & EQ and they *are* pale in comparison to the newer modern MMOs in terms of features and fun factor.
Is that why UO has Player-Housing, Taming, Player-Driven Economy, Skill-based system and plenty of more features which are vastly superior to modern day mmo's?
It's been 10 years since the release of Ultima: Online, back in good old 2009 we would have thought that by now games would be on such a level classics like Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, would pale in comparison. However it is now 2009, and most gamers who have played MMO's for any period of time would agree that nothing on the market today can even live up to these original releases. Nostalgia aside, when critically examining these games, it appears as though with each new release the games are being dumbed down; It reminds me alot of the Mike Judge movie: Idiocracy where overtime people became dumber and dumber as technology allowed them more and more luxeries. What I have been wondering is why no games with depth and challenge have been introduced to the market since 2003; The closest we have come is darkfall (don't get me started on that tangent) and in many ways I don't even feel as though, it has lived up to it's potential. Am I the only one who feels like this? Is that why there are no more deep challenging games on the market? What do you guys think?
Yes, you and a minority of the players. I started with UO & EQ and they *are* pale in comparison to the newer modern MMOs in terms of features and fun factor.
Is that why UO has Player-Housing, Taming, Player-Driven Economy, Skill-based system and plenty of more features which are vastly superior to modern day mmo's?
SWG had those as well. Big whoop.
I was making a comparison to modern-day mmo's, SWG isn't one of those (i liked SWG alot back in the days).
I'm trying to make the point modern mmo's are all about grinding combat to max-level instead of having various paths you can choose. I like living worlds, not static dumbed down combat-grindfest worlds.
Oh the good old days of SWG.... A game with EVERYTHING in it for EVERYONE. From every type of Combat to all kind of crafters with a real player based economy. The ressources system was awesome. Better resources with better crafters were making better things. Too bad they spoiled that game.. Wish game companies would look at what SWG was before and make something similar. The game had everything to keep you in it.. Just hope one day some dev will remember how complete that game was ..
Ultima and EQ enjoyed something that new MMORPGs don't....and thats lack of competition.
If you didn't like how something worked in Ultima, you dealt with it because there was nothing else. You put up with the bad to experience the good. That wasn't neccessarily a bad thing....you can't knee jerk react to something if there is no where else to go.
Today there are hundreds of options for MMO gaming so new successful MMORPGs are developed to apeal to the masses. Try to make EVERYONE as happy as possible ALL of the time. Blizzard can't get away with what Ultima got away with in 97' or 98' because the new fickle MMO crowd would jump ship without a second thought.
Which brings us to today. Niche games (ala pre-pub 16 Ultima Online) that are deep, challenging, and quite frankly...aimed at a more mature audience....are not sustainable because of the precident that games like World of Warcaft, Aion, WAR, (insert linear theme park MMO Here), have made it impossible to pull enough player base to be profitable. And as a result, all the big publishers that have the bank to put together a quality game avoid it like the plauge.
You mention full loot system to anyone in WOW and you'd get slapped and called a blaspheme. You mention common item system or only having 3 stats and 2 main class types and watch as their face curls in disgust. WHEN in actuallity....all those things worked well and are one of the main reasons that made Ultima work so well.
What it all boils down to is that while there is a market for MMO gamers that are looking for some kind of challenge in a game that isn't defined by a gear check.....there just isn't enough of us for a Blizzard, Squarsoft, EA to take a chance on with the amount of competition in the market today.
The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.
quoted in yellow.--------- Why do people like it so much and always make posts about missing it? Obviously there is something there.
Usually the only people who miss it are the gankers who are doing it in the first place. They want your stuff. The people who actually get ganked aren't so hot on the idea.
and what do you base that on?
Are you saying you think people seriously enjoy getting robbed by characters specifically constructed to do just that?
Everquest was my first and I personelly liked the death penalty where you loose exp. Usaully a couple hours of grinding was taken away. That punishment added tons of excitement becuase if you screwed up running into a situation you are not able to handle or being careless you paid the price. Most of the time you were able to figure a way to get somewhere without being discovered so not to die loosing the exp. Todays games graphic wise are always improving but I agree with the OP, they are dumbed down games taking away the thrill that is needed to make our palms and armpits sweat from the excitement of serviving a run to the zone line of Mistmoore being chased by 20 vampires while yelling " Train to Zone, Train to Zone"
The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.
quoted in yellow.--------- Why do people like it so much and always make posts about missing it? Obviously there is something there.
Usually the only people who miss it are the gankers who are doing it in the first place. They want your stuff. The people who actually get ganked aren't so hot on the idea.
and what do you base that on?
Are you saying you think people seriously enjoy getting robbed by characters specifically constructed to do just that?
I don't think people enjoy getting robbed.....I think people get a rush from the sense of danger and risk involved in doing something in a game.
When I PvP'd in Ultima Online my pulse would jump through the roof and adrenaline would pump. I've been playing WOW for 3 years and NOT ONCE has that happend in PvP or PvE.
In UO there were certian roads on the map that I bought stuff from vendors on and I did my business as quick as possible and got the hell out because there was sense of REAL danger there. NOT ONCE have I had that feeling playing WOW, WAR, etc.
I didn't play a lot of EQ, but I'd imagine there would be a similar effect when getting in a fight that you weren't very confident you would make it out alive. You die, you pay the consequence......it makes the fights you choose (and sometimes the ones you dont) more meaningful, and by consequence more exciting.
I'm not saying its for everyone....but I think the niche following is more expansive than griefers and a-holes.
It's been 10 years since the release of Ultima: Online, back in good old 2009 we would have thought that by now games would be on such a level classics like Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, would pale in comparison. However it is now 2009, and most gamers who have played MMO's for any period of time would agree that nothing on the market today can even live up to these original releases. Nostalgia aside, when critically examining these games, it appears as though with each new release the games are being dumbed down; It reminds me alot of the Mike Judge movie: Idiocracy where overtime people became dumber and dumber as technology allowed them more and more luxeries. What I have been wondering is why no games with depth and challenge have been introduced to the market since 2003; The closest we have come is darkfall (don't get me started on that tangent) and in many ways I don't even feel as though, it has lived up to it's potential. Am I the only one who feels like this? Is that why there are no more deep challenging games on the market? What do you guys think?
You are one hundred percent true. I'm an old schooler from Asherons Call myself and none of these crap ass mmorpg's live up to the old school titles or my expectations for that matter. I am currently not playing any mmorpg's because they all are horrible, Ived played them all you name it I have played it, nothing will ever compare to the old school mmorpg titles. It seems like mmorpg's are getting worst and worst, why?, because the companies are looking at dollar bills and not fun factors associated with it in the process.
Ever since AC, EQ, EQ2 and AC2 and shadowbane, this genre has become a pile of shit.
mmorpg's flop faster then mcdonalds cheese burgers these days.
The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.
quoted in yellow.--------- Why do people like it so much and always make posts about missing it? Obviously there is something there.
Usually the only people who miss it are the gankers who are doing it in the first place. They want your stuff. The people who actually get ganked aren't so hot on the idea.
and what do you base that on?
Are you saying you think people seriously enjoy getting robbed by characters specifically constructed to do just that?
OMG after playing that game I looked down and my mouse was gone.....Someone in that game took my mouse!
What was taken from you was data.... Nothing more, you still have your life (real). If you get better at playing a game, you don't loss. If you don't get better at playing it, maybe its not for you. If you can't pick a games that is for you, ask your mom or dad to help.
If you would like to play a game that has no winner, play Tic Tac Toe. If you fined that Tic Tac Toe has a winner, stop playing MMOs.
If you are playing a game that is a win or loss type, get better at it, or don't play.
If you don't like to play with others in games you loss, well all I can say is seek help.
PS. Before EQ, UO, WOW, I played DFLW, and people that could not play that game came onto sites, got shot and left. (alot) At some point thay quite or got better.
So what do you what to do, just change the game so you don't die!
LOL
GROW UP
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.
Everquest was my first and I personelly liked the death penalty where you loose exp. Usaully a couple hours of grinding was taken away. That punishment added tons of excitement becuase if you screwed up running into a situation you are not able to handle or being careless you paid the price. Most of the time you were able to figure a way to get somewhere without being discovered so not to die loosing the exp. Todays games graphic wise are always improving but I agree with the OP, they are dumbed down games taking away the thrill that is needed to make our palms and armpits sweat from the excitement of serviving a run to the zone line of Mistmoore being chased by 20 vampires while yelling " Train to Zone, Train to Zone"
XP loss on death isn't bad for PvE games, but I wouldn't recommend it for PvP.
Lineage 2 actually came real close to putting together the right mix of sandbox / linear progression open world enviornment with a Wild Wild West mentality. The Korean MMO influences (Crazy Grind, Stingy Droprates) and Botters ultimately killed it.....but had a very good risk / reward mix.
Everquest was my first and I personelly liked the death penalty where you loose exp. Usaully a couple hours of grinding was taken away. That punishment added tons of excitement becuase if you screwed up running into a situation you are not able to handle or being careless you paid the price. Most of the time you were able to figure a way to get somewhere without being discovered so not to die loosing the exp. Todays games graphic wise are always improving but I agree with the OP, they are dumbed down games taking away the thrill that is needed to make our palms and armpits sweat from the excitement of serviving a run to the zone line of Mistmoore being chased by 20 vampires while yelling " Train to Zone, Train to Zone"
XP loss on death isn't bad for PvE games, but I wouldn't recommend it for PvP.
Lineage 2 actually came real close to putting together the right mix of sandbox / linear progression open world enviornment with a Wild Wild West mentality. The Korean MMO influences (Crazy Grind, Stingy Droprates) and Botters ultimately killed it.....but had a very good risk / reward mix.
exp loss or skill penalty has worked in all the games i liked. In lineage 2 their was exp loss, that game was pretty fun.
Everquest was my first and I personelly liked the death penalty where you loose exp. Usaully a couple hours of grinding was taken away. That punishment added tons of excitement becuase if you screwed up running into a situation you are not able to handle or being careless you paid the price. Most of the time you were able to figure a way to get somewhere without being discovered so not to die loosing the exp. Todays games graphic wise are always improving but I agree with the OP, they are dumbed down games taking away the thrill that is needed to make our palms and armpits sweat from the excitement of serviving a run to the zone line of Mistmoore being chased by 20 vampires while yelling " Train to Zone, Train to Zone"
XP loss on death isn't bad for PvE games, but I wouldn't recommend it for PvP.
Lineage 2 actually came real close to putting together the right mix of sandbox / linear progression open world enviornment with a Wild Wild West mentality. The Korean MMO influences (Crazy Grind, Stingy Droprates) and Botters ultimately killed it.....but had a very good risk / reward mix.
exp loss or skill penalty has worked in all the games i liked. In lineage 2 their was exp loss, that game was pretty fun.
I think the XP Loss discouraged PvP....expecially at the higher levels where dieing would set you back several hours of grinding to make up.
XP loss is okay for dieing to NPCs....monsters are predictable, they have limited aggro ranges and boss fights are scripted. Monsters are easily avoidable and XP Loss can be managed.
Players, on the other hand, are not predictable....they will chase you down from across the screen and are adaptive to the actions YOU take...the ultimate AI. Its much easier to die to a player than it is to non player characters.
Lineage also had a very small % chance to drop an item from inventory....which added a fair bit of importance to fights.
An interesting death penalty that Ultima Online had for waring factions was temporary stat loss. All your skills (attributes) are lowered by some percent (similar to rez sickness in WOW) for like 10 or 15 minutes after death so that people don't rez up and just run back in to the battle.
As in all things you will never find a happy medium that will keep everyone happy the only way truly to do that would be to release servers with different play sets on them.
Great idea in potential but companies arent here to cater to us when you can simply make a mash and grind themepark game - release it full of bugs and get people to cough up money before its even release by calling it early access.
Todays gamer is merely a sheep, who hasnt expeirenced the true meaning of half the words they like to quote such as grind - see EQ, or sandbox - see EVE,ryzom etc.
Death penatlies are a good idea - there is no perfect way to balance it. However working with it is the way forward - rather than simply taking these ideas out, why not play with them see what you come up with? Eh game companies?
After giving it some thought (and doing a lot of reading, this is a long thread) heres my 2 cents;
At an early point of this thread i found some discussion upon an analogy being made of the evolution of literature and that of MMOs. On that line of thought i would agree with those posters who consider the genre stagnant, aside from any stance regarding wether classic games are better than contemporary releases, there seems to have been little inovation in aspects regarding game mechanics, newer games having simply refined and polished said features. In the history of all art movements, revolutions are almost always followed by a period of refinement which eventually leads to stagnation (and a new revolution) Neoclasicism led to its polar oposite, Realism, which in turn begot a Romanticism that oposed both, and would be later substituted by modernism and so on and on...
As loathsome as i may personally find WOW, i must grant it certain historical value. It was a work of refinement, not inovation, and like such works much more sofisticated than its predecesors. It was only revolutionary in that it brought the MMO genre to the mainstream and a much a wider audience, which it would have been unable to do without virtues (whatever else, it has managed to engender a passionate following) but much like many works of such nature (I would compare the amount of time it requires of dedicated players with the excesses of baroque architecture) it has now become stagnant.
I dont think comparing this game with McDonalds is entirely off base because much as McDonalds it has changed the habits of people. Its not just that imitation has strangled creativity, but much like McDonalds it has become too convenient an option; People seem to resub to it in much the same manner that they frequent McDonalds as it has become an acceptable (if not exciting) stapple to their taste. The analogy can be taken further and we may even speak of a fast food MMO trend, and yes while we may argue that Burguer King is better than McDonald's it really isnt worlds apart. I very much doubt MMOs as a genre are at a dead end, but unless some genius developer actually has a revolution on the wraps, i think the genre will remain stagnant for a long time.
One more thing, it is my opinion that people who prefer RPGs to action games like first person shooters really are looking for games that provide more an intelectual challenge than a test of reflexes. So far, many of the solutions MMOs have ofered us (such as gearing or specs) have somewhat failed in making games chalenging at the level of individual battles (that soon become repetitive) which may be the reason more elements of action oriented games have been making their way into MMOs. I think that in finding ways to deal with the unexpected that rely more in fast thinking than in button mashing a learned contingency, may be the key to finding the next revoultion in the genre.
Just to make things clear... I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
The reason people always choose mcdonalds is to associate wow with fast food which holds a very negative stigma in our society. A nation where over 50% of the population is overweight, obese even and most people simply must have something to blame, anything. That is why you never head people complete the analogy, wow is like mcdonalds so other mmos are like _________, because it would expose just how flawed the comparison is between such dissimilar products.
Why do you never hear people compare wow to other products that dominate their respective industries, like google, ipod, etc? The reason is that people don't want to associate wow with something that has become successful as a result of releasing a better product. It is the same reason so few actually compare wow to other mmos and instead hide behind analogies about hamburgers or gross hyperbole instead of actually discussing the comparison of mmo to mmo.
It is a video game and no matter how many similarities people try to draw, at the end of all the discussion you are still talking about a hamburger as if it somehow parallels the inner workings of a video game.
Wow is successful, because it is a very well crafted and managed product in a market filled with that is dominated by products that are not very well crafted and more often than not very mismanaged. So many other companies are making it trivial for warcraft to dominate the market. It really is just that simple.
What was taken from you was time. The time invested in obtaining the gear that was just taken from you. The time invested in the XP that you lost when you died. The time necessary to recover from death.
Such is the reason that harsh death penalties and full looting have fallen out of fashion; time means a lot to most people; we don't get enough of it to be willing to sacrifice it needlessly.
Challenge and penalty are two very different concepts.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
My 1st MMO was DAoC. Me and about 5 of my buddies all started playing it at the same time.
We all loved that game, many many hours of fun over the course of about 3-4 years. I have not found a game since that has given me that feeling of community, fun and just overall enjoyment.
Having said that if you are looking to play an " old school MMO" unless I am mistaken most if not all are still up and going. DAoC, EQ, AC, UO ect. all still have servers up and running with a small but dedicated community playing them.
GO play them if you want that experience. Unfortunatly for you modern day MMO's will not be released with this " old school model". They want a slice of that huge multi billion dollar pie and the small amount of people who would play a new game with these rulesets just dont matter.
For me it is time to move out of the MMO world. Me and a few friends started playing D&D PnP again, picked up some console RPGs and having more fun doing those than the last 3 years in any MMO.
No offense to some people, but the genre has changed. Either change with it or move on to something you actually do enjoy until a game comes along that fits you, or go back to the " old" games you do enjoy. If EQ, AC, ect. were so great why are complaining about WoW, Aion, ect when THOSE games are still up and running, go play em if you like em so much.
we all know there is something terribly wrong with mmo's, especially those of us who were there at the very beggining and have witnessed the genre unfold sometimes in horrible directions. my personal back catalouge of mmo gaming is quite substantial, and i think it would be fair to say that the genre has gone from being a fresh, liberating expirience to a complacent chore over the course of a decade. the personal liberty that once existed in mmo's has slowly been replaced with dependance of the community upon the devs! think about it, in most mmo's now we arnt even free to build a unique character, we are given pre built classes! we cannot choose our own enemies or wars within a game, they are pre selected for us on some silly race notion! a player driven economy isnt even a thought anymore! i could list endless attacks against player liberties which have in turn sedated the genre in all but a few cases but i think i have written enough for now.
i joined this website back in 2003 and although i rarely comment, i do lurk through the site looking and waiting for 'the one' to arrive as i know many others do, we are like a dormant force. the big difference now is that i look to the indy devs as the mainstream devs have completely and utterly lost their way!
Starved? http://warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=118569 Ok For those whining, Be courageous and watch You're only starved if you are too stubborn to look. In a few years time people will QQ and say how stupid we were ...
Comments
I think the main argument against 'challenging' mmo's is that the old way was just a time-sink. I think people are forgetting something pretty pertinent. MMOs are a time-sink. You are playing to waste time or entertain yourself as time passes. So are you saying you are wasting your game time? Time you'd rather be using to race to the endgame, right?
I think maybe what people are saying is they used to enjoy the trip up, and you learned your character and other people through it, and in addition they found it more immersive having to look around a dark zone worried about a train of skeletons whacking you. What the 'time sink' people are describing is a desire to rip through the game so they can get to the "elite" endgame, something not so elite when newb zones are empty and most of the server is max level (because it takes a month).
Players are just saying they prefered spending their time in suspense, since if they screwed up, yes, it would be an inconvinience or 'time sink.' This kept their attention in the game. In WoW, you try to stay awake as you watch the download bar at the bottom fill up. Watch a movie while you grind! Its like a chore you are getting out of the way. In EQ players used to have to actually play the game to play the game. I think that is what players/posters are thinking on.
Playing: DO Trial, EVE 1 Day Buy a PLEX promo.
Played: UO, EQ, AC, GW, WoW, CoX, EQ2, AoC, WURM Online, Ryzom, Eve Online, FE Trial
Genres: 4x strategy, Sim Racing, American/Euro RPG, Fighters
Great Observation.
I am guilty of getting swept up with all the cool addons to help simplify my game play so I can watch reruns of Family Guy while grinding out some simple quests. Multitasking FTL
I've recently returned back to EQ and I can say with 100% certainty that it is no less stupid than WoW. They are both equally crappy games. Even SWG, my first "kiss", turned out to be really, really horrible when I went to try out SWGemu.
I've come to realise that the whole MMORPG genre has always been a very bad game genre. They are very boring to play and the mechanics are hardly ever anything other than lame. Mediocre at best.
How did I realise this revelation? All my friends have quit playing them, but I still clinged to them. I realised that the fun I had was because I played them with friends; both people I met online and irl. Every single good memory I have of MMORPGs is of me and my bizarre antics with my friends.
And this takes us back to the problem with modern MMORPGs. The most recent new MMORPG I've played is Champions Online, and like most modern MMOs, it's so solo friendly that it actually hurts your XP to group with anyone. There's no need to play with others, thus no one does. I tried several times to spark up some conversation in the general chat, but rarely did anything come out of it.
In conclusion: maybe MMORPGs actually haven't gotten better or worse. I think that they are pretty much the same now as they were in the past. The only thing that I can see that has changed drastically is the mentality of the players. Without the players MMORPGs are just bad games with mechanics that feel so old and outdated that they make old atari games seem fresh and innovative. Which is what they pretty much are when you get down to it. Whether it's EQ or WoW, old or new, it doesn't really matter. Both suck and so does the genre.
Hey I found a great deal on a '66 Ferrari that was sitting at a dealership. I was really excited since everyone said this particular model was great. It broke down on the ride home, and it wasn't even that fast. Ferrari sucks.
Seriously though, see what you mean about solo stuff, can make it boring.
Playing: DO Trial, EVE 1 Day Buy a PLEX promo.
Played: UO, EQ, AC, GW, WoW, CoX, EQ2, AoC, WURM Online, Ryzom, Eve Online, FE Trial
Genres: 4x strategy, Sim Racing, American/Euro RPG, Fighters
AC1 Best game ever lol. I would not mind seeing 1-20 clones of this game....
Yes, you and a minority of the players. I started with UO & EQ and they *are* pale in comparison to the newer modern MMOs in terms of features and fun factor.
Is that why UO has Player-Housing, Taming, Player-Driven Economy, Skill-based system and plenty of more features which are vastly superior to modern day mmo's?
Yes, you and a minority of the players. I started with UO & EQ and they *are* pale in comparison to the newer modern MMOs in terms of features and fun factor.
Is that why UO has Player-Housing, Taming, Player-Driven Economy, Skill-based system and plenty of more features which are vastly superior to modern day mmo's?
SWG had those as well. Big whoop.
Yes, you and a minority of the players. I started with UO & EQ and they *are* pale in comparison to the newer modern MMOs in terms of features and fun factor.
Is that why UO has Player-Housing, Taming, Player-Driven Economy, Skill-based system and plenty of more features which are vastly superior to modern day mmo's?
SWG had those as well. Big whoop.
I was making a comparison to modern-day mmo's, SWG isn't one of those (i liked SWG alot back in the days).
I'm trying to make the point modern mmo's are all about grinding combat to max-level instead of having various paths you can choose. I like living worlds, not static dumbed down combat-grindfest worlds.
Oh the good old days of SWG.... A game with EVERYTHING in it for EVERYONE. From every type of Combat to all kind of crafters with a real player based economy. The ressources system was awesome. Better resources with better crafters were making better things. Too bad they spoiled that game.. Wish game companies would look at what SWG was before and make something similar. The game had everything to keep you in it.. Just hope one day some dev will remember how complete that game was ..
Ultima and EQ enjoyed something that new MMORPGs don't....and thats lack of competition.
If you didn't like how something worked in Ultima, you dealt with it because there was nothing else. You put up with the bad to experience the good. That wasn't neccessarily a bad thing....you can't knee jerk react to something if there is no where else to go.
Today there are hundreds of options for MMO gaming so new successful MMORPGs are developed to apeal to the masses. Try to make EVERYONE as happy as possible ALL of the time. Blizzard can't get away with what Ultima got away with in 97' or 98' because the new fickle MMO crowd would jump ship without a second thought.
Which brings us to today. Niche games (ala pre-pub 16 Ultima Online) that are deep, challenging, and quite frankly...aimed at a more mature audience....are not sustainable because of the precident that games like World of Warcaft, Aion, WAR, (insert linear theme park MMO Here), have made it impossible to pull enough player base to be profitable. And as a result, all the big publishers that have the bank to put together a quality game avoid it like the plauge.
You mention full loot system to anyone in WOW and you'd get slapped and called a blaspheme. You mention common item system or only having 3 stats and 2 main class types and watch as their face curls in disgust. WHEN in actuallity....all those things worked well and are one of the main reasons that made Ultima work so well.
What it all boils down to is that while there is a market for MMO gamers that are looking for some kind of challenge in a game that isn't defined by a gear check.....there just isn't enough of us for a Blizzard, Squarsoft, EA to take a chance on with the amount of competition in the market today.
quoted in yellow.--------- Why do people like it so much and always make posts about missing it? Obviously there is something there.
Usually the only people who miss it are the gankers who are doing it in the first place. They want your stuff. The people who actually get ganked aren't so hot on the idea.
and what do you base that on?
Are you saying you think people seriously enjoy getting robbed by characters specifically constructed to do just that?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Everquest was my first and I personelly liked the death penalty where you loose exp. Usaully a couple hours of grinding was taken away. That punishment added tons of excitement becuase if you screwed up running into a situation you are not able to handle or being careless you paid the price. Most of the time you were able to figure a way to get somewhere without being discovered so not to die loosing the exp. Todays games graphic wise are always improving but I agree with the OP, they are dumbed down games taking away the thrill that is needed to make our palms and armpits sweat from the excitement of serviving a run to the zone line of Mistmoore being chased by 20 vampires while yelling " Train to Zone, Train to Zone"
quoted in yellow.--------- Why do people like it so much and always make posts about missing it? Obviously there is something there.
Usually the only people who miss it are the gankers who are doing it in the first place. They want your stuff. The people who actually get ganked aren't so hot on the idea.
and what do you base that on?
Are you saying you think people seriously enjoy getting robbed by characters specifically constructed to do just that?
I don't think people enjoy getting robbed.....I think people get a rush from the sense of danger and risk involved in doing something in a game.
When I PvP'd in Ultima Online my pulse would jump through the roof and adrenaline would pump. I've been playing WOW for 3 years and NOT ONCE has that happend in PvP or PvE.
In UO there were certian roads on the map that I bought stuff from vendors on and I did my business as quick as possible and got the hell out because there was sense of REAL danger there. NOT ONCE have I had that feeling playing WOW, WAR, etc.
I didn't play a lot of EQ, but I'd imagine there would be a similar effect when getting in a fight that you weren't very confident you would make it out alive. You die, you pay the consequence......it makes the fights you choose (and sometimes the ones you dont) more meaningful, and by consequence more exciting.
I'm not saying its for everyone....but I think the niche following is more expansive than griefers and a-holes.
You are one hundred percent true. I'm an old schooler from Asherons Call myself and none of these crap ass mmorpg's live up to the old school titles or my expectations for that matter. I am currently not playing any mmorpg's because they all are horrible, Ived played them all you name it I have played it, nothing will ever compare to the old school mmorpg titles. It seems like mmorpg's are getting worst and worst, why?, because the companies are looking at dollar bills and not fun factors associated with it in the process.
Ever since AC, EQ, EQ2 and AC2 and shadowbane, this genre has become a pile of shit.
mmorpg's flop faster then mcdonalds cheese burgers these days.
quoted in yellow.--------- Why do people like it so much and always make posts about missing it? Obviously there is something there.
Usually the only people who miss it are the gankers who are doing it in the first place. They want your stuff. The people who actually get ganked aren't so hot on the idea.
and what do you base that on?
Are you saying you think people seriously enjoy getting robbed by characters specifically constructed to do just that?
OMG after playing that game I looked down and my mouse was gone.....Someone in that game took my mouse!
What was taken from you was data.... Nothing more, you still have your life (real). If you get better at playing a game, you don't loss. If you don't get better at playing it, maybe its not for you. If you can't pick a games that is for you, ask your mom or dad to help.
If you would like to play a game that has no winner, play Tic Tac Toe. If you fined that Tic Tac Toe has a winner, stop playing MMOs.
If you are playing a game that is a win or loss type, get better at it, or don't play.
If you don't like to play with others in games you loss, well all I can say is seek help.
PS. Before EQ, UO, WOW, I played DFLW, and people that could not play that game came onto sites, got shot and left. (alot) At some point thay quite or got better.
So what do you what to do, just change the game so you don't die!
LOL
GROW UP
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.
XP loss on death isn't bad for PvE games, but I wouldn't recommend it for PvP.
Lineage 2 actually came real close to putting together the right mix of sandbox / linear progression open world enviornment with a Wild Wild West mentality. The Korean MMO influences (Crazy Grind, Stingy Droprates) and Botters ultimately killed it.....but had a very good risk / reward mix.
XP loss on death isn't bad for PvE games, but I wouldn't recommend it for PvP.
Lineage 2 actually came real close to putting together the right mix of sandbox / linear progression open world enviornment with a Wild Wild West mentality. The Korean MMO influences (Crazy Grind, Stingy Droprates) and Botters ultimately killed it.....but had a very good risk / reward mix.
exp loss or skill penalty has worked in all the games i liked. In lineage 2 their was exp loss, that game was pretty fun.
XP loss on death isn't bad for PvE games, but I wouldn't recommend it for PvP.
Lineage 2 actually came real close to putting together the right mix of sandbox / linear progression open world enviornment with a Wild Wild West mentality. The Korean MMO influences (Crazy Grind, Stingy Droprates) and Botters ultimately killed it.....but had a very good risk / reward mix.
exp loss or skill penalty has worked in all the games i liked. In lineage 2 their was exp loss, that game was pretty fun.
I think the XP Loss discouraged PvP....expecially at the higher levels where dieing would set you back several hours of grinding to make up.
XP loss is okay for dieing to NPCs....monsters are predictable, they have limited aggro ranges and boss fights are scripted. Monsters are easily avoidable and XP Loss can be managed.
Players, on the other hand, are not predictable....they will chase you down from across the screen and are adaptive to the actions YOU take...the ultimate AI. Its much easier to die to a player than it is to non player characters.
Lineage also had a very small % chance to drop an item from inventory....which added a fair bit of importance to fights.
An interesting death penalty that Ultima Online had for waring factions was temporary stat loss. All your skills (attributes) are lowered by some percent (similar to rez sickness in WOW) for like 10 or 15 minutes after death so that people don't rez up and just run back in to the battle.
As in all things you will never find a happy medium that will keep everyone happy the only way truly to do that would be to release servers with different play sets on them.
Great idea in potential but companies arent here to cater to us when you can simply make a mash and grind themepark game - release it full of bugs and get people to cough up money before its even release by calling it early access.
Todays gamer is merely a sheep, who hasnt expeirenced the true meaning of half the words they like to quote such as grind - see EQ, or sandbox - see EVE,ryzom etc.
Death penatlies are a good idea - there is no perfect way to balance it. However working with it is the way forward - rather than simply taking these ideas out, why not play with them see what you come up with? Eh game companies?
After giving it some thought (and doing a lot of reading, this is a long thread) heres my 2 cents;
At an early point of this thread i found some discussion upon an analogy being made of the evolution of literature and that of MMOs. On that line of thought i would agree with those posters who consider the genre stagnant, aside from any stance regarding wether classic games are better than contemporary releases, there seems to have been little inovation in aspects regarding game mechanics, newer games having simply refined and polished said features. In the history of all art movements, revolutions are almost always followed by a period of refinement which eventually leads to stagnation (and a new revolution) Neoclasicism led to its polar oposite, Realism, which in turn begot a Romanticism that oposed both, and would be later substituted by modernism and so on and on...
As loathsome as i may personally find WOW, i must grant it certain historical value. It was a work of refinement, not inovation, and like such works much more sofisticated than its predecesors. It was only revolutionary in that it brought the MMO genre to the mainstream and a much a wider audience, which it would have been unable to do without virtues (whatever else, it has managed to engender a passionate following) but much like many works of such nature (I would compare the amount of time it requires of dedicated players with the excesses of baroque architecture) it has now become stagnant.
I dont think comparing this game with McDonalds is entirely off base because much as McDonalds it has changed the habits of people. Its not just that imitation has strangled creativity, but much like McDonalds it has become too convenient an option; People seem to resub to it in much the same manner that they frequent McDonalds as it has become an acceptable (if not exciting) stapple to their taste. The analogy can be taken further and we may even speak of a fast food MMO trend, and yes while we may argue that Burguer King is better than McDonald's it really isnt worlds apart. I very much doubt MMOs as a genre are at a dead end, but unless some genius developer actually has a revolution on the wraps, i think the genre will remain stagnant for a long time.
One more thing, it is my opinion that people who prefer RPGs to action games like first person shooters really are looking for games that provide more an intelectual challenge than a test of reflexes. So far, many of the solutions MMOs have ofered us (such as gearing or specs) have somewhat failed in making games chalenging at the level of individual battles (that soon become repetitive) which may be the reason more elements of action oriented games have been making their way into MMOs. I think that in finding ways to deal with the unexpected that rely more in fast thinking than in button mashing a learned contingency, may be the key to finding the next revoultion in the genre.
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
The reason people always choose mcdonalds is to associate wow with fast food which holds a very negative stigma in our society. A nation where over 50% of the population is overweight, obese even and most people simply must have something to blame, anything. That is why you never head people complete the analogy, wow is like mcdonalds so other mmos are like _________, because it would expose just how flawed the comparison is between such dissimilar products.
Why do you never hear people compare wow to other products that dominate their respective industries, like google, ipod, etc? The reason is that people don't want to associate wow with something that has become successful as a result of releasing a better product. It is the same reason so few actually compare wow to other mmos and instead hide behind analogies about hamburgers or gross hyperbole instead of actually discussing the comparison of mmo to mmo.
It is a video game and no matter how many similarities people try to draw, at the end of all the discussion you are still talking about a hamburger as if it somehow parallels the inner workings of a video game.
Wow is successful, because it is a very well crafted and managed product in a market filled with that is dominated by products that are not very well crafted and more often than not very mismanaged. So many other companies are making it trivial for warcraft to dominate the market. It really is just that simple.
Wrong.
What was taken from you was time. The time invested in obtaining the gear that was just taken from you. The time invested in the XP that you lost when you died. The time necessary to recover from death.
Such is the reason that harsh death penalties and full looting have fallen out of fashion; time means a lot to most people; we don't get enough of it to be willing to sacrifice it needlessly.
Challenge and penalty are two very different concepts.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
My 1st MMO was DAoC. Me and about 5 of my buddies all started playing it at the same time.
We all loved that game, many many hours of fun over the course of about 3-4 years. I have not found a game since that has given me that feeling of community, fun and just overall enjoyment.
Having said that if you are looking to play an " old school MMO" unless I am mistaken most if not all are still up and going. DAoC, EQ, AC, UO ect. all still have servers up and running with a small but dedicated community playing them.
GO play them if you want that experience. Unfortunatly for you modern day MMO's will not be released with this " old school model". They want a slice of that huge multi billion dollar pie and the small amount of people who would play a new game with these rulesets just dont matter.
For me it is time to move out of the MMO world. Me and a few friends started playing D&D PnP again, picked up some console RPGs and having more fun doing those than the last 3 years in any MMO.
No offense to some people, but the genre has changed. Either change with it or move on to something you actually do enjoy until a game comes along that fits you, or go back to the " old" games you do enjoy. If EQ, AC, ect. were so great why are complaining about WoW, Aion, ect when THOSE games are still up and running, go play em if you like em so much.
we all know there is something terribly wrong with mmo's, especially those of us who were there at the very beggining and have witnessed the genre unfold sometimes in horrible directions. my personal back catalouge of mmo gaming is quite substantial, and i think it would be fair to say that the genre has gone from being a fresh, liberating expirience to a complacent chore over the course of a decade. the personal liberty that once existed in mmo's has slowly been replaced with dependance of the community upon the devs! think about it, in most mmo's now we arnt even free to build a unique character, we are given pre built classes! we cannot choose our own enemies or wars within a game, they are pre selected for us on some silly race notion! a player driven economy isnt even a thought anymore! i could list endless attacks against player liberties which have in turn sedated the genre in all but a few cases but i think i have written enough for now.
i joined this website back in 2003 and although i rarely comment, i do lurk through the site looking and waiting for 'the one' to arrive as i know many others do, we are like a dormant force. the big difference now is that i look to the indy devs as the mainstream devs have completely and utterly lost their way!
C
best editing of wow i have ever saw
now we need those guys to do the same for aion