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"YOU CAN'T" - not a good recipe for Win.

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  • soassoas Member Posts: 14

    Though I can understand the need to get the game on multiple platforms and operating systems, I also think of how many games that added this on as they could.

     

    Since its still not even in a closed beta yet, we can only assume so much. Cryptic is very limited on waht they can say right now. They could be working on a cross over as we speak, but can not say anything because they do not want to dissipoint or make false hopes.

     

    I seen many games that these were added just shortly before launch.

    All we can do is hope for the best.

  • tamgrostamgros Member Posts: 88
    Originally posted by DevilXaphan


    LOL.........the basic absence of any 3d movement in a space MMO is rediculous as any good space RTS game has this.


    I forsee not a lot of people playing this.

    Maybe if you even knew a little bit about the game, you might actually like it?

     

    There is 3D movement!   What they don't have is full neutonian physics in flight.  There is a huge difference there.  Many games don't have full neutonian physics.  It's hard to do with an MMO and make it right. JGE is having a really hard time.  ST doesn't really use neutonian physics that much anyway (though i suppose that is up for debate) so they avoided it all together and went to make some great gameplay.  Look at the game play, it is MUCH BETTER than any MMO i've ever seen:

     

     

    Again, you can clearly see the 3D nature, the activity, etc.  And this is one of the very first missions!!! Go to almost any other MMO and what do you see in the noob areas?  People standing around using one or two skills, that's what...

     

  • OsiasOsias Member Posts: 14

    Having skimmed the OP and a few of the following pages i simply want to say this -



    We must not focus on the "Can nots" which will be presented to us with the release on STO. Yes there are things we all want to do in the game which sadly we will not be able to do, but this is a flaw inherent to all games.



    Instead allow us to focus on the "Can Do's" which we're being given with the release of the game.  Here for the very first time and possibly for the last time we're being given an MMO Based entirely on one of Televisions all time greatest fanchises and a show which Most if not all of us have grown up with.



    I think given the wide range of possibilities which Cryptic has with STO that they are making a fantastic begning and i dearly hope that i will be able to be part of the community and player base for many years to come so that i can be part of this MMO. It might not deliver exactly what i want out of the gate.



    But that's the thing about MMOs.



    They're always under development, even when they've hit stores.



    STO Will be awesome.

  • tamgrostamgros Member Posts: 88
    Originally posted by Osias


    Having skimmed the OP and a few of the following pages i simply want to say this -



    We must not focus on the "Can nots" which will be presented to us with the release on STO. Yes there are things we all want to do in the game which sadly we will not be able to do, but this is a flaw inherent to all games.



    Instead allow us to focus on the "Can Do's" which we're being given with the release of the game.  Here for the very first time and possibly for the last time we're being given an MMO Based entirely on one of Televisions all time greatest fanchises and a show which Most if not all of us have grown up with.



    I think given the wide range of possibilities which Cryptic has with STO that they are making a fantastic begning and i dearly hope that i will be able to be part of the community and player base for many years to come so that i can be part of this MMO. It might not deliver exactly what i want out of the gate.



    But that's the thing about MMOs.



    They're always under development, even when they've hit stores.



    STO Will be awesome.

    Yeah, very good point. If they were going to make an MMO that tried to do everything, it would never be released.

     

    Just think about it, what if a show tried to do 'everything' in the ST universe?  Lol, it's just not possible.  Rekhan said it pretty well when he said something like, "a lot of the time, development is just content triage".  Lol, i think that's soooo true.

  • KhorolKhorol Member Posts: 8

    I don't see being captain as being stuck to one specific class.  Your skills will determine what your strengths are, on away missions as well as your ship. Not only that there are diff kinds of ships. There is a lot more variety than some people think.

  • buegurbuegur Member UncommonPosts: 457

    I can't believe there is 14 pages of mostly complaining that STO isn't going in the direction the poster wants so this game is destine to failure.  The three main complaints of only captains, no bridge or interior and no real 3D movement have been well documented. So if thats the features that are going to break this game for you just move on.  Frankly those three things are either repugent to me or don't matter in the least to me (3D movement).  When the game included those items, I just moved on as it was obvious to me the game wasn't being made for me.  I didn't whine day after day, weeks on end because it didn't meet my expectations.  I actually respected those that wanted the game for the direction the Devs were designing it, boring as it may of seemed to me.  Now the game in my opinion is heading in a direction I wished it would from the start with sides, intergalactic conflict, exploration, and planet away missions.  As hard as it is for some to believe those of us excited about the game now have no desire to go back to what the old design had.  I'm amazed there is even two people that think being a side kick character  would be in the least bit enjoyable!  I can't even imagine how you could make enough missions that would include each member of a crew tasks in an enjoyable scenario, which is why I would guess they dropped that idea.  I could imagine many long missions where a engineer or doctor (etc) had nothing at all to do, who would want to play for hours on end with basically no purpose for three quarters of the time?  Anyways give it a rest guys, the ceaseless ranting about whats not to be is getting repetitious and rather boring!

  • ericbelserericbelser Member Posts: 783

    That's okay, I am continually amazed at people who think that something other than "ship as avatar" means playing "side kick" characters.

    Consider the following: Assume the game has integrated voice comms and starship interiors you can walk around (at least partial ones); Each "Bridge crew" consists of the following 4 positions - all physical consoles on the bridge: command, helm, weapons, and engineering. (Maybe a fifth for "science" - who knows). Now, each of these positions contributes directly to combat by the skills of the character in them modifying the ships stats. Each position also opens up "special maneuvers" using that speciality - like combo openings or chains in fantasy MMOs.

    Each bridge position is in turn a broad "archetype" for a character /clas line - so there are different types of engineer specialist etc.

    A group, or partial group, that plays together operates sort of as a group does in a traditional fantasy MMO; with each position firing off abilities to do things. (might involve mini games, might not)

    Now the soloist (and any empty slots in a partial group) have to be filled by either random NPC assignment or specific crew recruitment. The NPCs provide lower levels of the same boosts that PCs do and the basic level of any special maneuvers possible. A solo PC captain who has the skills and needs/wants to do some more impressive special can get up and physically swap consoles on the bridge. Get the idea?

    Obviously on "away" teams, the PC group functions as a normal independent MMO group...while the solo (or empty positions) gets NPC "pets" to fill the slots. (The same way they all get NPC "redshirts" to fill slots on a ground team)

    - Just one possible way they *could* have done things that wouldn't be "pushing one button in 12hrs" or whatever.

     

     

     

  • ktanner3ktanner3 Member UncommonPosts: 4,063
    Originally posted by ak_vader


    I bet i could make an I can't list about every game ever made as long my arm.  So untill we've played it I'll keep a positive attitude. 



     

    Good point.

    Currently Playing: World of Warcraft

  • ktanner3ktanner3 Member UncommonPosts: 4,063
    Originally posted by ericbelser


    That's okay, I am continually amazed at people who think that something other than "ship as avatar" means playing "side kick" characters.
    Consider the following: Assume the game has integrated voice comms and starship interiors you can walk around (at least partial ones); Each "Bridge crew" consists of the following 4 positions - all physical consoles on the bridge: command, helm, weapons, and engineering. (Maybe a fifth for "science" - who knows). Now, each of these positions contributes directly to combat by the skills of the character in them modifying the ships stats. Each position also opens up "special maneuvers" using that speciality - like combo openings or chains in fantasy MMOs.
    Each bridge position is in turn a broad "archetype" for a character /clas line - so there are different types of engineer specialist etc.
    A group, or partial group, that plays together operates sort of as a group does in a traditional fantasy MMO; with each position firing off abilities to do things. (might involve mini games, might not)
    Now the soloist (and any empty slots in a partial group) have to be filled by either random NPC assignment or specific crew recruitment. The NPCs provide lower levels of the same boosts that PCs do and the basic level of any special maneuvers possible. A solo PC captain who has the skills and needs/wants to do some more impressive special can get up and physically swap consoles on the bridge. Get the idea?
    Obviously on "away" teams, the PC group functions as a normal independent MMO group...while the solo (or empty positions) gets NPC "pets" to fill the slots. (The same way they all get NPC "redshirts" to fill slots on a ground team)
    - Just one possible way they *could* have done things that wouldn't be "pushing one button in 12hrs" or whatever.
     
     
     

    Well then you should be really happy with the away missions in this game because that is exactly what happens. But then again, I'm sure that was just a typo on your part or maybe you "forgot" this little fact which has been common knowledge for awhile now for anyone that actually visited the site and got their own facts.

     

    Currently Playing: World of Warcraft

  • ZerothLawZerothLaw Member Posts: 24

    Yeah, thats the thing. You can play with your friends... in ground missions. Just not for on the ship. Do you know why? Cryptic tried it, and couldn't find a way to make it fun for everyone. They did consider it, but they decided that it was more important for the game to be fun, than to be a Sim.

    Cryptic has some massive Star Trek fans on staff, that outdo us in the IRC room for geekiness and trivia knowledge, and thats saying something. If it could have worked, they would have done it.

  • DominatamDominatam Member Posts: 4
    Originally posted by ZerothLaw


    Yeah, thats the thing. You can play with your friends... in ground missions. Just not for on the ship. Do you know why? Cryptic tried it, and couldn't find a way to make it fun for everyone. They did consider it, but they decided that it was more important for the game to be fun, than to be a Sim.
    Cryptic has some massive Star Trek fans on staff, that outdo us in the IRC room for geekiness and trivia knowledge, and thats saying something. If it could have worked, they would have done it.



     

    To me, i think both systems have their merits in terms of fun gameplay.  It's just hard to imagine a AAA MMO trying the player crew option for a game as complex as ST. There is just too much there.  It's a lot easier if all the crews have to do is man turrets...

     

    I also find it funny that many people bring doom on this MMO because it isn't doing something that no other MMO has even attempted.  I mean, does that even make the least bit of sense?  Clearly at least the chance of failure would increase if they went on out on such a limb. 

  • cipher_nemocipher_nemo Member Posts: 14
    Originally posted by Dominatam
    I also find it funny that many people bring doom on this MMO because it isn't doing something that no other MMO has even attempted.  I mean, does that even make the least bit of sense?  Clearly at least the chance of failure would increase if they went on out on such a limb. 

    Me too. Although I found the OP's fantasy interview a bit entertaining, there's always going to be criticism for any new MMO.

    If it's not the "WoW measuring stick", it's the "canon measuring stick". :(

    Oh well, I realize Cryptic can't put in everything the entire community wants at launch (nor should they). We'll still have a fun Star Trek based MMO that will grow and mature over time.

  • ak_vaderak_vader Member Posts: 8
    Originally posted by ZerothLaw


    Yeah, thats the thing. You can play with your friends... in ground missions. Just not for on the ship. Do you know why? Cryptic tried it, and couldn't find a way to make it fun for everyone. They did consider it, but they decided that it was more important for the game to be fun, than to be a Sim.
    Cryptic has some massive Star Trek fans on staff, that outdo us in the IRC room for geekiness and trivia knowledge, and thats saying something. If it could have worked, they would have done it.

     Totally agree, I read there post on what they felt after trying it bridge crew style, and was glad they had tried it, but I was praying it would end up as each of us captaining our own ship.  Being fun is just as, or more important then cannonish sim.  There will plenty of team work, and opportunity to work with friends.  I for one am very impressed with cryptic on STO so far.  I would like for people to play it before criticizing it.  

     

     

  • ericbelserericbelser Member Posts: 783
    Originally posted by ktanner3


    Well then you should be really happy with the away missions in this game because that is exactly what happens. But then again, I'm sure that was just a typo on your part or maybe you "forgot" this little fact which has been common knowledge for awhile now for anyone that actually visited the site and got their own facts.

     



     

    Umm, no - that would be *why* I used that example.

    They could have done it for space combat too - they *chose* not to. >shrug<

    Depends on how you see the game. To me, "away teams" seem like a fairly optional part of the game and one that is strangely divorced from the space game.

    Them saying they "couldn't find a way to make it fun" is like the utter morons at SOE saying that no one wanted to play a prospector (or miner) in SWG...it was just an idiotic statement.

  • DanescuDanescu Member Posts: 9
    Originally posted by ericbelser


    Depends on how you see the game. To me, "away teams" seem like a fairly optional part of the game and one that is strangely divorced from the space game. 

    They may be "optional" to you, but away teams are a great ST universe asset, often a good way to show the interaction between characters.

    Having multiple PCs aboard a ship would offer extra immersion to the game, but at the risk of losing out a lot of players due to the fact that they couldn't spend enough online time with the rest of the crew. It shouldn't feel like raiding, having to rely on 4-5 people to achieve your goals, though it seems some people have problems getting away from that preconception.

    This is supposed to be a game, not a job.

  • GuardiousGuardious Member Posts: 81

    Hello Everyone,

    We like as you know to keep things civil here at MMORG.COM and I ask that it stay's that way here in this thread. Keep it constructive and too topic and it can continue. If not , you know the outcome.

    Thank you,

    Guardious

  • SprenonSprenon Member Posts: 13

    I think that STO will do just fine. 

    I've been folowing it since April, and am anxiously awaiting for it's release.

    I know that ship interiors will not be in at launch, and I certainly understand that

    a ship won't host multiple players.  I agree with Cryptic in this regard - There's really

    no way that they could implement this feature and make it fun.

    I think people should try the game out before serving judgement.

  • law573law573 Member UncommonPosts: 89
    Originally posted by GrumpyMel2


    In entertainment venues, the words "You Can't" are not a good recipie for success. This is the core of why I think STO is going to be a huge dissappointment for many fans. Because of the genre we are dealing with, people are going to come into the game with  expectations to be able to do certain things.... when they find out this is not supported, there is going to be a huge let down factor.
    To illustrate, imagine this hypothetical conversation between Cryptic and a potential fan.


    Fan - "I'm so stoked, I'm finaly going to be able to play an MMO where I can be the Chief Engineer aboard a starship in the Trek universe".
    Cyptic - "I'm sorry but you can't play the Chief Engineer, you MUST be the Captain of your ship."
    Fan - "What about my freind Bob, we played the FASA rpg...and he liked to play the Captain and I liked playing the Engineer. If I have to be Captain what does he play aboard our ship?"
    Cryptic - "You can't play aboard the same ship with Bob, every ship is crewed by only a single player who MUST be Captain...all other positions MUST be filled by NPC's".
    Fan - "That stinks. Well can I at least invite Bob aboard to show him all the tinkering I've done with the engines down in Engineering?"
    Cryptic - "Sorry but you can't. Players can't beam over to other players ships. The only Player that can be aboard your ship is. You."
    Fan - " So I can't be the Chief Engineer and I can't invite anyone aboard my ship. So what do I do when I tinker with stuff down in Engineering. Do I have to take screenshots to send them to other players to show off Engineering aboard my ship."
    Cryptic - "I'm sorry but there IS no Engineering aboard your ship....or rather I should say it's not represented in game.... none of the interior areas aboard your ship are represented....so you can't go there, show them to anyone or tinker with any of the equipment there."
    FAN - "So what happens in a fight when my front shield goes down and I do a half-loop to put my aft shields to the enemy. If cant goto Engineering, how do I get my front shield-back online? Does my NPC Engineer do it for me automaticaly?"
    Cryptic - "Uhm...you can't do a half-loop in this game... we only support WASD movement and an elevator function.... there is no pitch or roll control"
    FAN - "So what happens when I loose my front shield facing? How can I quickly manuver my ship so that I'm not exposing a weakend shield."
    Cryptic - "Oh Don't worry about that.... shield facings are irrelevant... you can instantly transfer power to any shield facing you want by pressing a button on your hot-bar."
    FAN - "Shield facings are irrelevant....and I'm limited in the control of movement and positioning of my ship. So what determines victory in Space Combat?"
    Cryptic - "Ah well, if you do more damage to your opponent then they have hit points...er, I mean shield energy and structural points. Then you win!"
    FAN - "Uhm.....so where do tactics come into play?"
    Cryptic - "Oh that's easy... Depending upon your class... and upon the Pets...er I mean Bridge Crew you have equiped during the fight....you have certain specials on your hot-bar that buff you or debuff your enemies or let you do more powerfull attacks.... just like in WOW.... for instance there is a Photon Torpedoes of Doom special attack you can get that lets you fire 40 torpedoes all at once!"
    FAN - "Photon Torpedos of Doom.... specials....this is SCIENCE Fiction we are talking about, not Magic right??? Don't torpedo tubes have a certain built in rate of fire.... how can you explain how stuff like that is supposed to work?? "


    Cryptic - "Oh....easy.... we don't"

     



     

    As far as ship interiors go, Cryptic's actual answer is "Not at launch"

    You are playing a video game. By definition that means you are not hardcore.

  • James_CookJames_Cook Member Posts: 8

    Every game has "You can't" stuff. If games didn't have that, it would be legitimate to call that game a LIFE. Cuz there are not gonna be any kind of distinction between game and life anymore - since u can do everything u can do in life.

     

    P.S. Most of the stuff listed is out-dated or wrong interpretation anyway.:) The game has many features and is worth a try.

  • BidiotBidiot Member Posts: 5

    there's prolly a good reason why you cant do it in the first place.

  • IG_SlayerIG_Slayer Member Posts: 13

    WOW...pretty much everyone here is so negative...think positive or STFU...we dont want to hear your endless whining!

  • IG_SlayerIG_Slayer Member Posts: 13

    If you don't have anything positive to say...go back to playin' WoW and EVE...at least give Cryptic a chance. After all the game hasn't been released yet....

  • heremypetheremypet Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 528

    The first time I head the words "Star Trek Online", I imagined creating a character on whatever races home planet you picked, then either joining a guild who can acquire a ship by some means, or joining the federation when you can be assigned to a ship by Starfleet.  Either way, I was sure it would be ships full of players, working together exploring space.

    Then I realized that they would probably make it stupid, just like every other game it seems these days.  Sure enough, after hearing that ever player would have their own ship and every player would be the captain, I instantly lost all interest in the game, which was quite a feat on their part considering I'm a fan of the series.

    "Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."

  • malcombexmalcombex Member Posts: 14

    A ship crewed with real players would never leave port.   Where the hell is  my helmsman - oh hes not home from work yet.

    Oh ok then Mr checkov  you have the helm - when youve quite finished jumping up and down like an idiot and where the hell is my scienece officer disapeared to ? Oh yeah hes got bad lag captain. What a joke - Cryptic are doing the best and only really viable option open to them . END OF

  • heremypetheremypet Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 528
    Originally posted by malcombex


    A ship crewed with real players would never leave port.   Where the hell is  my helmsman - oh hes not home from work yet.
    Oh ok then Mr checkov  you have the helm - when youve quite finished jumping up and down like an idiot and where the hell is my scienece officer disapeared to ? Oh yeah hes got bad lag captain. What a joke - Cryptic are doing the best and only really viable option open to them . END OF

    If by helmsman you mean the guy that normally sits at the helm, yea he might be dead IRL for all the crew knows.  That doesn't mean that posts should be inflexible.  The capt. could give an order to plot a course, and if no one is at the helm, any qualified member of the crew should be able to fill that position.

    Imagine if Chekov were acting as though he was out of his mind, jumping up and down at his station, what do you think Kirk would have done?  He would have had him removed and gave another crew member orders to man the helm.

    Have you ever played the Half-Life mod 'Natural Selection'?  When the match starts the players decide on the captain, who sits in the command seat and gives orders RTS style to the rest of the people who are playing FPS style.  The game works pretty well actually.  If people start disobeying orders and the mission is lost, then those players look bad towards the team, and so people typically work together and follow orders.  If the commander gives an order to a player to build a sensor, but that player just stares at the floor, the commander will give the command to someone else and get on the mic asking what the hell this guy is doing.  If he keeps being an idiot than he will probably be kicked from the server.

    There are typically enough people on at any given time to play matches, likewise guilds in STO could 'handle' different types of ships depending on the size and competence of the guild.  None of that is stopping mister floor examiner from getting his own little craft, but to think that HE will be the captain of a STARSHIP along with everyone else is just dumb.

    Almost everything about the world of Star Trek revolves around teamwork.  How fitting that as a modern MMO, it is now every man for himself.

    "Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."

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