...and yet you were just calling MMO players the crazy ones.
Sarcasm douchebag. Get outside more often. It's a movie in theaters now.
Oh sorry, I mistook you for a token internet slug. Maybe if you didn't follow up a long rant on how sad people are with the whole end of the world thing I wouldn't have figured such. Next time use more smileys or something, seems to be the only way "sane" people use emotion to reflect text these days.
I'm not saying I didn't get suckered into the whole MMO bullshit like a lot of other people. There just comes a time when you dediced it is time to move on. My cousin and I have played these games for longer than we'd both care to admit. We've had several discussions multiple times about how sad it is that we've become so engrossed in these games that when we become bored in real life we get that urge to play an MMO. This genre is highly addictive and fo rthat I say grats to the developers utilizing this. I just can't stand to play any of these games anymore. I keep giving them a shot in hopes of playing casually but that doesn't really offer much personally. My cousin and I discussed how much time we have lost to playing MMOS and then tried to find something that we've at least dedicated half or 1/4 of that amount of time to that is productive. We couldn't come up with anything. And it's not all to blame on MMOS. If you look at society now they don't know what's going on if they didn't hear it on CNN. It's just sad that this Nation has fallen so short and we blame it on politicians we wouldn't have appointed if we were paying attention, and then say this country is doomed. Apathy is the best policy. It's worked for the US government for far too long now. It's time we take a break from all this bullshit we like to distract ourselves with and actually apply ourselves to what we desire and to impact the world around us. As great as we think we our with our technology, at least our "primitive" ancestors knew of fate and a consequence for their actions. Our generation doesn't really care. If we did we wouldn't be arguing about bullshit commercialism like videogames. We're all just to goddamn soft to admit that we've let corporate America take our balls.
Welcome to the consumer generation.
Dont' think I'm attempting to proclaim I'm holier than thou. I'm just a loser like you all who decided to put an end to this bullshit. Oh? Why am I posting here? I went to check my bank statement and the post showed up in my mailbox. I am done with these games. I am done with this "community". I'd rather be a slave than dedicate my leisure time to a game that isn't worth a fuck.
That all sounds great on paper, but like I said in two posts, I STILL CAN'T DO WHAT I WANT in a Sandbox MMO. I can't make a mad scientist type of guy and do research and come up with crazy stuff. I can't make a wizard who lives in a tower in the middle of nowhere and does something similar. Both would probably look and explore the world from a distance most of the time. I can't make a Soong-like guy who makes artificial life and sends it out. I can't make a Caine-like guy (from Kung Fu) who wanders the world and rights wrongs.
Theme Park games don't allow these things either, but at least with the Caine-like guy it is a good bit closer to being doable. Sandbox games just don't do what I want them to do.
Key phrase if your quote, what you want them to do. Most of the things you listed, you can achieve more closely in a sandbox MMO than you can in a themepark MMO. Yes, it won't be exact, but you won't be confined to the same railed character development/quest treadmill that you would be in a themepark MMO. Living in a tower in the middle of nowhere? UO let you do that. As per researching something new, that's purely a software limitation in that they would have to come up with some new innovative mechanic to allow for players to research/create/develop new items (that are balanced) within the MMO. Much of the other things you stated you can do, but it requires something called roleplaying. Sandbox MMOs facilitate roleplaying, where as most themepark MMO barely even acknowledge it, let alone support it.
Naturally that's the key phrase. It's why I don't play Sandbox MMOs after all. I am not saying my wants apply to everyone in any way shape or form. And it is very important (as far as I am concerned) to realize that my personal wants is somewhat of a take it or leave it. Yeah, there are Sandboxes that let me have an Tower in the middle of nowhere. Magical/scientific research and viewing things from afar are NOT possible however, so that tower in the middle of nowhere is more of a pain than anything else. It's a package deal for me.
Yes, these things are software limitations, but that's how it goes, with sandboxes. The limit of what you can do is software, so if you want a game to express your creativity (which is what I'd want a sandbox for) and the game doesn't let you do that because of software limitations, then you are stuck. Maybe that same game satisfies others. I am, of course, speaking for myself, as befits the topic. I did generalize slightly when I said that there are other people who probably feel similar to me (software limitations are not to be dismissed, as they are a very big deal towards why people don't just all play Sandboxes, imho).
And people DO roleplay in Themeparks. I imagine it is about as common as in Sandboxes, but I can't be sure (I don't think either of us has any decent statistics on this).
Originally posted by Ceridith
Anyhow, the extent of character-created stuff is not as clear-cut as you pretend. When I played WoW for a while (quit about 6 months ago), I made a big difference in Wintegrasp on Farstriders by organizing people and leading them.
And then a few hours later the zone reset and your effort meant absolutely nothing. Which was exactly my point, that themepark MMOs do not give players any measure of longterm influence on the gaming world. A sandbox MMO on the otherhand, would let you say, build a new town/city with other players. Sounds far more lasting than 'winning' control over a zone that resets as if nothing happened after a couple hours.
Some let you do that sure. But those towns don't necessarily stick if you come back a year later, I'd think. Anyhow, I'm not particularly interested in building a town. I like flexing my strategy and tactics muscles and in WoW Wintergrasp let me do that (the biggest limitation being getting people to listen to me and figuring out what level of organization a random raid can take, but I developed something of a reputation while I did it). Nice thing about this is that I could do it WHEN I chose to. If I went to a sandbox game I'd have to schedule myself and people to do that and slowly build up a coalition as well. Not particularly interested in doing that, but I could get into it if a Sandbox offered the other sorts of things I'd be looking for (e.g. having to schedule my real life for such things is a tax I'd be more willing to pay then). That said, eventually fighting to get people to listen got a bit old and tiresome which is one reason why I quit WoW.
I don't know, I admit I haven't played a TON of sandbox games. They've generally felt fairly grindy and time-consuming to me. More so than well-made quests (which give a nice change of pace when they ARE well-made...crappy quests are quite grindy too, of course).
Originally posted by Ceridith
Similarly, often people can have a big impact on the economy in such games (it isn't like the computer puts things on the AH).
Playing the auctionhouse is not even in the same ballpark as real virtual economy with complex supply and demand models, heavy inter-dependency and reliance on items crafted by other players. In a game like WoW, you can without much more difficulty still get to max level, and get the best gear, without buying a single thing from another player, crafted or otherwise.
That's not true. Best gear requires crafted consumables at the very least, and especially in WotLK crafted gear helps out a TON. Yeah, it isn't as detailed as sandboxes, but I think you are making mountains out of molehills. There are differences, but in a well-made MMO player crafted stuff matters (for a while it didn't in WoW, but they are moving back to it mattering -- some of the best stuff IS crafted). That said, I don't particularly care about a player-made economy, honestly.
Originally posted by Ceridith
Yeah, Sandbox games allow more, but the story-element is really lacking.
Hand-held quest-fed story? Yes of course there's less, because quests are a core mechanic in themepark MMOs, and sparingly used in sandbox MMOs. That by no means makes any story or lore non-existent. And even so, the lore and story can be influenced more by players, rather than being pre-determined, pre-fed quest descriptions.
Well, if there's a Sandbox MMO with forces of evil that people can eventually join and armies and evil powers uniting that good-aligned players would need to band together to defeat, then let me know. Yeah, I am sure there is some lore in Sandboxes, but I haven't heard of it being nearly as epic. Haven't heard of eldritch powers or ancient technologies being awakened in any Sandbox. Maybe I'm just not familiar with the right ones. I'm under the impression almost all Sandboxes rely on the players to do everything. That sounds nice, but in a realistic world the rest of reality is doing stuff to.
Let's take a Pseudo-Stargate Sandbox, starting from the first episode. The basic premise of the MMO then is that you start as some low-level guy in the US or elsewhere and you can gain ranks or otherwise advance yourself (doing so outside of the military). But the Goul'd (sp?) HAVE been awakened to the presence of Earth, so they are still doing stuff too. If you sit around and do nothing, Earth might get destroyed. Heck, maybe you DO something and are part of that destruction! Or, maybe you go and find the Ancients or Asgard and get some help from them, or maybe you find a way to the Pegasus Galaxy and and awaken the Wraith. Is there a sandbox like that, with a world that REACTS to what people do? If so, then I'd play that. (Btw, nothing in my above description requires the force-feeding of ANY quests, but if you have multiple servers it might mean one has Earth destroyed at a later date and another does not).
Originally posted by Ceridith
Want to be an archeologist in a sandbox game? Want to be an explorer and find hidden secrets? I haven't seen one that really allows either to any significant extent. Themepark games generally allow more discovery, even if everyone is doing it. Better than nothing.
You've really not played much of any sandbox MMOs then. Every single one I've played had countless points of interest to explore, waiting to be discovered. The only difference is that you don't have quests holding your hand to lead you to them.
My apologies. I wasn't clear. I meant something more like what I just said above or otherwise having significant things to find (in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, not just a fun fact).
Want to be an archeologist in a sandbox game? Want to be an explorer and find hidden secrets? I haven't seen one that really allows either to any significant extent. Themepark games generally allow more discovery, even if everyone is doing it. Better than nothing.
You've really not played much of any sandbox MMOs then. Every single one I've played had countless points of interest to explore, waiting to be discovered. The only difference is that you don't have quests holding your hand to lead you to them.
My apologies. I wasn't clear. I meant something more like what I just said above or otherwise having significant things to find (in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, not just a fun fact).
The first two games that come to mind are UO with its treasure maps and SOS bottles, and EVE with archaeology and wormhole space.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Want to be an archeologist in a sandbox game? Want to be an explorer and find hidden secrets? I haven't seen one that really allows either to any significant extent. Themepark games generally allow more discovery, even if everyone is doing it. Better than nothing.
You've really not played much of any sandbox MMOs then. Every single one I've played had countless points of interest to explore, waiting to be discovered. The only difference is that you don't have quests holding your hand to lead you to them.
My apologies. I wasn't clear. I meant something more like what I just said above or otherwise having significant things to find (in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, not just a fun fact).
The first two games that come to mind are UO with its treasure maps and SOS bottles, and EVE with archaeology and wormhole space.
Like I said though (and I looked into th Eve stuff based on your post, though not UO), Sandboxes generally seem to composed of two parts: there's the dynamic part and the (mostly) static part. Players ARE the dynamic part, they are the only source of change, beyond perhaps very small-scale random events (like wormholes in Eve). Everything else in the world is pretty much static and unchanging...lifeless.* I like my games to make me feel like the other parts of the world have life in them, which Themeparks do fairly well (though no MMO does great here afaik).
I suppose Zaxxon earlier in the thread talked about this a bit, where he said that Sandboxes don't have a "linear" component. At least, I think he was getting at this idea.
*I said this in a very different way. You didn't quote where I said it, but you quoted where I referenced to what I said (the "something more like what I just said above"...above).
AOC is pretty linear. I recall being on a forest path I could not leave (i.e. invisible walls) and not being able to progress past some tied up women unless I sorted through the dialogue boxes in exactly the order the dev's intended for me. (Huge amount of choices? I sure didn't see them.) Contrast that with Everquest, in which I started in the Barbarian village of Halas and was free to wander about town and explore outside of town. Sure, Halas had walls, but they were village walls, not invisible do-the-quest-or-you-cannot-leave walls. Now linearity may be on some slider bar, but I prefer that slider to be moved more towards the "free choice" side than the "storyline side", and I think I am not alone. But no, your style of gaming is not the same and it makes me wonder if that if you favor storyline and isolated gameplay, then why play an MMO at all? Do not RPG's pretty much fit your desired game standards?
Well you can nitpick a linear experience out of any game, but that doesn't really make an argument for the game being linear. I could be disgruntled about prerequisite skills in EVE (omg, invisible walls blocking my advancement!) or I could whine about not being able to proceed directly to 50 Sword skill from 1 Sword skill...or I could realize design constraints make games interesting, and these tiny bits of linearity don't end up ruining the overall experience.
Invisible walls where it appears like you should be able to walk is just flat-out bad level design. No player, sandbox or otherwise, wants bad level design.
TBH, nitpicking the first 10 mins of AOC gameplay as being linear is rather silly. You quite quickly save the chick and proceed on to a good variety of different quests to run. Is it sandbox-style variety? No. But it's certainly not linear. You pop back and forth between day/night at will and are free to run quite a few sidequests to the main storyline, if memory serves.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Want to be an archeologist in a sandbox game? Want to be an explorer and find hidden secrets? I haven't seen one that really allows either to any significant extent. Themepark games generally allow more discovery, even if everyone is doing it. Better than nothing.
You've really not played much of any sandbox MMOs then. Every single one I've played had countless points of interest to explore, waiting to be discovered. The only difference is that you don't have quests holding your hand to lead you to them.
My apologies. I wasn't clear. I meant something more like what I just said above or otherwise having significant things to find (in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, not just a fun fact).
The first two games that come to mind are UO with its treasure maps and SOS bottles, and EVE with archaeology and wormhole space.
Sorry...you can cut Eve
So tired of the people wh rate this game so highly. I tested it. I played it after. I got bored.
Really not a good example to use and I wish the fans of Eve would stop. You like it....that's awesome. But it's like talking people into liking green beans. Might be good....but friggin YUCK!!!!
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Want to be an archeologist in a sandbox game? Want to be an explorer and find hidden secrets? I haven't seen one that really allows either to any significant extent. Themepark games generally allow more discovery, even if everyone is doing it. Better than nothing.
You've really not played much of any sandbox MMOs then. Every single one I've played had countless points of interest to explore, waiting to be discovered. The only difference is that you don't have quests holding your hand to lead you to them.
My apologies. I wasn't clear. I meant something more like what I just said above or otherwise having significant things to find (in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, not just a fun fact).
The first two games that come to mind are UO with its treasure maps and SOS bottles, and EVE with archaeology and wormhole space.
Sorry...you can cut Eve
So tired of the people wh rate this game so highly. I tested it. I played it after. I got bored.
Really not a good example to use and I wish the fans of Eve would stop. You like it....that's awesome. But it's like talking people into liking green beans. Might be good....but friggin YUCK!!!!
What?!?!
Because you don't like Eve people need to stop calling it a good or great game? Well I think WoW is shitty I guess people can stop talking about that also.
Wtf is this? "I hate that game so everyone should just stop enjoying it and using it in a discussion!!!"
Want to be an archeologist in a sandbox game? Want to be an explorer and find hidden secrets? I haven't seen one that really allows either to any significant extent. Themepark games generally allow more discovery, even if everyone is doing it. Better than nothing.
You've really not played much of any sandbox MMOs then. Every single one I've played had countless points of interest to explore, waiting to be discovered. The only difference is that you don't have quests holding your hand to lead you to them.
My apologies. I wasn't clear. I meant something more like what I just said above or otherwise having significant things to find (in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, not just a fun fact).
The first two games that come to mind are UO with its treasure maps and SOS bottles, and EVE with archaeology and wormhole space.
Sorry...you can cut Eve
So tired of the people wh rate this game so highly. I tested it. I played it after. I got bored.
Really not a good example to use and I wish the fans of Eve would stop. You like it....that's awesome. But it's like talking people into liking green beans. Might be good....but friggin YUCK!!!!
What?!?!
Because you don't like Eve people need to stop calling it a good or great game? Well I think WoW is shitty I guess people can stop talking about that also.
Wtf is this? "I hate that game so everyone should just stop enjoying it and using it in a discussion!!!"
Somethings wrong with people like you.
No....
I have played it and tested it. I also have been gaming since pong. I know what I like and don't.
You people who love Eve go out of your way to advertise it IMO. And it's false advertisement to me. All the posts I see speak of things that just are not so great as you would claim they are. (like the 58 hour tutorial)
And when people speak out against it's popularity, you fans act like we are all crazy.
<--- not crazy
<--- just not crazy for Eve.
Get it now?
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Want to be an archeologist in a sandbox game? Want to be an explorer and find hidden secrets? I haven't seen one that really allows either to any significant extent. Themepark games generally allow more discovery, even if everyone is doing it. Better than nothing.
You've really not played much of any sandbox MMOs then. Every single one I've played had countless points of interest to explore, waiting to be discovered. The only difference is that you don't have quests holding your hand to lead you to them.
My apologies. I wasn't clear. I meant something more like what I just said above or otherwise having significant things to find (in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, not just a fun fact).
The first two games that come to mind are UO with its treasure maps and SOS bottles, and EVE with archaeology and wormhole space.
Sorry...you can cut Eve
So tired of the people wh rate this game so highly. I tested it. I played it after. I got bored.
Really not a good example to use and I wish the fans of Eve would stop. You like it....that's awesome. But it's like talking people into liking green beans. Might be good....but friggin YUCK!!!!
What?!?!
Because you don't like Eve people need to stop calling it a good or great game? Well I think WoW is shitty I guess people can stop talking about that also.
Wtf is this? "I hate that game so everyone should just stop enjoying it and using it in a discussion!!!"
Somethings wrong with people like you.
No....
I have played it and tested it. I also have been gaming since pong. I know what I like and don't.
You people who love Eve go out of your way to advertise it IMO. And it's false advertisement to me. All the posts I see speak of things that just are not so great as you would claim they are. (like the 58 hour tutorial)
And when people speak out against it's popularity, you fans act like we are all crazy.
<--- not crazy
<--- just not crazy for Eve.
Get it now?
Not every Eve post is directed toward you. Obviously if you dislike a game you can ignore the Eve fans saying the game is great.
I do the same with the WoW fans. No need to tell someone that Eve doesn't belong on their personal "awesome" list. Everyone has their own preferences.
Instead of saying eve sucks and giving some bullshit gaming history of yourself why don't you post a bit on why you dislike the game atleast that would lead to a discussion.
There are no true sandbox mmorpgs. The closest one out there is Second Life, and it's considered more of a giant chat room. Every other mmorpg is just varying levels of themepark. Some are more than others. Some give you more choices on how to advance, but none give you the total freedom that is the true definition of a sandbox mmorpg. All these "hardcore" gamers that post thread after thread about how they hate themepark games and casual gamers and claim their mmorpg is sandbox are just fooling themselves in a vain attempt to put other people down to make themselves feel special.
There are no true sandbox mmorpgs. The closest one out there is Second Life, and it's considered more of a giant chat room. Every other mmorpg is just varying levels of themepark. Some are more than others. Some give you more choices on how to advance, but none give you the total freedom that is the true definition of a sandbox mmorpg. All these "hardcore" gamers that post thread after thread about how they hate themepark games and casual gamers and claim their mmorpg is sandbox are just fooling themselves in a vain attempt to put other people down to make themselves feel special.
There are no true sandbox mmorpgs. The closest one out there is Second Life, and it's considered more of a giant chat room. Every other mmorpg is just varying levels of themepark. Some are more than others. Some give you more choices on how to advance, but none give you the total freedom that is the true definition of a sandbox mmorpg. All these "hardcore" gamers that post thread after thread about how they hate themepark games and casual gamers and claim their mmorpg is sandbox are just fooling themselves in a vain attempt to put other people down to make themselves feel special.
Don't take the term sandbox so literally.
Completey agree here. Too mach thinking and not enough just playing IMO.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Want to be an archeologist in a sandbox game? Want to be an explorer and find hidden secrets? I haven't seen one that really allows either to any significant extent. Themepark games generally allow more discovery, even if everyone is doing it. Better than nothing.
You've really not played much of any sandbox MMOs then. Every single one I've played had countless points of interest to explore, waiting to be discovered. The only difference is that you don't have quests holding your hand to lead you to them.
My apologies. I wasn't clear. I meant something more like what I just said above or otherwise having significant things to find (in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, not just a fun fact).
The first two games that come to mind are UO with its treasure maps and SOS bottles, and EVE with archaeology and wormhole space.
Sorry...you can cut Eve
So tired of the people wh rate this game so highly. I tested it. I played it after. I got bored.
Really not a good example to use and I wish the fans of Eve would stop. You like it....that's awesome. But it's like talking people into liking green beans. Might be good....but friggin YUCK!!!!
I never stated whether the game was good, bad or otherwise. The question was about games with exploration and significant things to find in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, and I presented two. Your post is a rant about EVE which is wholly unrelated to the topic at hand.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I hope future developers aren't checking this forum. All this themepark vs sandbox bullshit...these are things you put on your box for better marketing. You need elements from both types to make a fun game...but fun these days, nah.
It's either about cloning WoW or spitting out cool stuff like "Hardcore sandbox for the real gamer" made to hide the obviously bad game they made. I've yet to see another decent fantasy game, because there hasn't been one since WoW was released.
I wonder why the hell they call them MMORPGs anyway, RPG element is long dead in this genre and MMO one is reduced to MO.
Comments
Sarcasm douchebag. Get outside more often. It's a movie in theaters now.
Oh sorry, I mistook you for a token internet slug. Maybe if you didn't follow up a long rant on how sad people are with the whole end of the world thing I wouldn't have figured such. Next time use more smileys or something, seems to be the only way "sane" people use emotion to reflect text these days.
I'm not saying I didn't get suckered into the whole MMO bullshit like a lot of other people. There just comes a time when you dediced it is time to move on. My cousin and I have played these games for longer than we'd both care to admit. We've had several discussions multiple times about how sad it is that we've become so engrossed in these games that when we become bored in real life we get that urge to play an MMO. This genre is highly addictive and fo rthat I say grats to the developers utilizing this. I just can't stand to play any of these games anymore. I keep giving them a shot in hopes of playing casually but that doesn't really offer much personally. My cousin and I discussed how much time we have lost to playing MMOS and then tried to find something that we've at least dedicated half or 1/4 of that amount of time to that is productive. We couldn't come up with anything. And it's not all to blame on MMOS. If you look at society now they don't know what's going on if they didn't hear it on CNN. It's just sad that this Nation has fallen so short and we blame it on politicians we wouldn't have appointed if we were paying attention, and then say this country is doomed. Apathy is the best policy. It's worked for the US government for far too long now. It's time we take a break from all this bullshit we like to distract ourselves with and actually apply ourselves to what we desire and to impact the world around us. As great as we think we our with our technology, at least our "primitive" ancestors knew of fate and a consequence for their actions. Our generation doesn't really care. If we did we wouldn't be arguing about bullshit commercialism like videogames. We're all just to goddamn soft to admit that we've let corporate America take our balls.
Welcome to the consumer generation.
Dont' think I'm attempting to proclaim I'm holier than thou. I'm just a loser like you all who decided to put an end to this bullshit. Oh? Why am I posting here? I went to check my bank statement and the post showed up in my mailbox. I am done with these games. I am done with this "community". I'd rather be a slave than dedicate my leisure time to a game that isn't worth a fuck.
Naturally that's the key phrase. It's why I don't play Sandbox MMOs after all. I am not saying my wants apply to everyone in any way shape or form. And it is very important (as far as I am concerned) to realize that my personal wants is somewhat of a take it or leave it. Yeah, there are Sandboxes that let me have an Tower in the middle of nowhere. Magical/scientific research and viewing things from afar are NOT possible however, so that tower in the middle of nowhere is more of a pain than anything else. It's a package deal for me.
Yes, these things are software limitations, but that's how it goes, with sandboxes. The limit of what you can do is software, so if you want a game to express your creativity (which is what I'd want a sandbox for) and the game doesn't let you do that because of software limitations, then you are stuck. Maybe that same game satisfies others. I am, of course, speaking for myself, as befits the topic. I did generalize slightly when I said that there are other people who probably feel similar to me (software limitations are not to be dismissed, as they are a very big deal towards why people don't just all play Sandboxes, imho).
And people DO roleplay in Themeparks. I imagine it is about as common as in Sandboxes, but I can't be sure (I don't think either of us has any decent statistics on this).
Some let you do that sure. But those towns don't necessarily stick if you come back a year later, I'd think. Anyhow, I'm not particularly interested in building a town. I like flexing my strategy and tactics muscles and in WoW Wintergrasp let me do that (the biggest limitation being getting people to listen to me and figuring out what level of organization a random raid can take, but I developed something of a reputation while I did it). Nice thing about this is that I could do it WHEN I chose to. If I went to a sandbox game I'd have to schedule myself and people to do that and slowly build up a coalition as well. Not particularly interested in doing that, but I could get into it if a Sandbox offered the other sorts of things I'd be looking for (e.g. having to schedule my real life for such things is a tax I'd be more willing to pay then). That said, eventually fighting to get people to listen got a bit old and tiresome which is one reason why I quit WoW.
I don't know, I admit I haven't played a TON of sandbox games. They've generally felt fairly grindy and time-consuming to me. More so than well-made quests (which give a nice change of pace when they ARE well-made...crappy quests are quite grindy too, of course).
That's not true. Best gear requires crafted consumables at the very least, and especially in WotLK crafted gear helps out a TON. Yeah, it isn't as detailed as sandboxes, but I think you are making mountains out of molehills. There are differences, but in a well-made MMO player crafted stuff matters (for a while it didn't in WoW, but they are moving back to it mattering -- some of the best stuff IS crafted). That said, I don't particularly care about a player-made economy, honestly.
Well, if there's a Sandbox MMO with forces of evil that people can eventually join and armies and evil powers uniting that good-aligned players would need to band together to defeat, then let me know. Yeah, I am sure there is some lore in Sandboxes, but I haven't heard of it being nearly as epic. Haven't heard of eldritch powers or ancient technologies being awakened in any Sandbox. Maybe I'm just not familiar with the right ones. I'm under the impression almost all Sandboxes rely on the players to do everything. That sounds nice, but in a realistic world the rest of reality is doing stuff to.
Let's take a Pseudo-Stargate Sandbox, starting from the first episode. The basic premise of the MMO then is that you start as some low-level guy in the US or elsewhere and you can gain ranks or otherwise advance yourself (doing so outside of the military). But the Goul'd (sp?) HAVE been awakened to the presence of Earth, so they are still doing stuff too. If you sit around and do nothing, Earth might get destroyed. Heck, maybe you DO something and are part of that destruction! Or, maybe you go and find the Ancients or Asgard and get some help from them, or maybe you find a way to the Pegasus Galaxy and and awaken the Wraith. Is there a sandbox like that, with a world that REACTS to what people do? If so, then I'd play that. (Btw, nothing in my above description requires the force-feeding of ANY quests, but if you have multiple servers it might mean one has Earth destroyed at a later date and another does not).
My apologies. I wasn't clear. I meant something more like what I just said above or otherwise having significant things to find (in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, not just a fun fact).
You've really not played much of any sandbox MMOs then. Every single one I've played had countless points of interest to explore, waiting to be discovered. The only difference is that you don't have quests holding your hand to lead you to them.
My apologies. I wasn't clear. I meant something more like what I just said above or otherwise having significant things to find (in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, not just a fun fact).
The first two games that come to mind are UO with its treasure maps and SOS bottles, and EVE with archaeology and wormhole space.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
You've really not played much of any sandbox MMOs then. Every single one I've played had countless points of interest to explore, waiting to be discovered. The only difference is that you don't have quests holding your hand to lead you to them.
My apologies. I wasn't clear. I meant something more like what I just said above or otherwise having significant things to find (in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, not just a fun fact).
The first two games that come to mind are UO with its treasure maps and SOS bottles, and EVE with archaeology and wormhole space.
Like I said though (and I looked into th Eve stuff based on your post, though not UO), Sandboxes generally seem to composed of two parts: there's the dynamic part and the (mostly) static part. Players ARE the dynamic part, they are the only source of change, beyond perhaps very small-scale random events (like wormholes in Eve). Everything else in the world is pretty much static and unchanging...lifeless.* I like my games to make me feel like the other parts of the world have life in them, which Themeparks do fairly well (though no MMO does great here afaik).
I suppose Zaxxon earlier in the thread talked about this a bit, where he said that Sandboxes don't have a "linear" component. At least, I think he was getting at this idea.
*I said this in a very different way. You didn't quote where I said it, but you quoted where I referenced to what I said (the "something more like what I just said above"...above).
Well you can nitpick a linear experience out of any game, but that doesn't really make an argument for the game being linear. I could be disgruntled about prerequisite skills in EVE (omg, invisible walls blocking my advancement!) or I could whine about not being able to proceed directly to 50 Sword skill from 1 Sword skill...or I could realize design constraints make games interesting, and these tiny bits of linearity don't end up ruining the overall experience.
Invisible walls where it appears like you should be able to walk is just flat-out bad level design. No player, sandbox or otherwise, wants bad level design.
TBH, nitpicking the first 10 mins of AOC gameplay as being linear is rather silly. You quite quickly save the chick and proceed on to a good variety of different quests to run. Is it sandbox-style variety? No. But it's certainly not linear. You pop back and forth between day/night at will and are free to run quite a few sidequests to the main storyline, if memory serves.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You've really not played much of any sandbox MMOs then. Every single one I've played had countless points of interest to explore, waiting to be discovered. The only difference is that you don't have quests holding your hand to lead you to them.
My apologies. I wasn't clear. I meant something more like what I just said above or otherwise having significant things to find (in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, not just a fun fact).
The first two games that come to mind are UO with its treasure maps and SOS bottles, and EVE with archaeology and wormhole space.
Sorry...you can cut Eve
So tired of the people wh rate this game so highly. I tested it. I played it after. I got bored.
Really not a good example to use and I wish the fans of Eve would stop. You like it....that's awesome. But it's like talking people into liking green beans. Might be good....but friggin YUCK!!!!
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
You've really not played much of any sandbox MMOs then. Every single one I've played had countless points of interest to explore, waiting to be discovered. The only difference is that you don't have quests holding your hand to lead you to them.
My apologies. I wasn't clear. I meant something more like what I just said above or otherwise having significant things to find (in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, not just a fun fact).
The first two games that come to mind are UO with its treasure maps and SOS bottles, and EVE with archaeology and wormhole space.
Sorry...you can cut Eve
So tired of the people wh rate this game so highly. I tested it. I played it after. I got bored.
Really not a good example to use and I wish the fans of Eve would stop. You like it....that's awesome. But it's like talking people into liking green beans. Might be good....but friggin YUCK!!!!
What?!?!
Because you don't like Eve people need to stop calling it a good or great game? Well I think WoW is shitty I guess people can stop talking about that also.
Wtf is this? "I hate that game so everyone should just stop enjoying it and using it in a discussion!!!"
Somethings wrong with people like you.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
You've really not played much of any sandbox MMOs then. Every single one I've played had countless points of interest to explore, waiting to be discovered. The only difference is that you don't have quests holding your hand to lead you to them.
My apologies. I wasn't clear. I meant something more like what I just said above or otherwise having significant things to find (in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, not just a fun fact).
The first two games that come to mind are UO with its treasure maps and SOS bottles, and EVE with archaeology and wormhole space.
Sorry...you can cut Eve
So tired of the people wh rate this game so highly. I tested it. I played it after. I got bored.
Really not a good example to use and I wish the fans of Eve would stop. You like it....that's awesome. But it's like talking people into liking green beans. Might be good....but friggin YUCK!!!!
What?!?!
Because you don't like Eve people need to stop calling it a good or great game? Well I think WoW is shitty I guess people can stop talking about that also.
Wtf is this? "I hate that game so everyone should just stop enjoying it and using it in a discussion!!!"
Somethings wrong with people like you.
No....
I have played it and tested it. I also have been gaming since pong. I know what I like and don't.
You people who love Eve go out of your way to advertise it IMO. And it's false advertisement to me. All the posts I see speak of things that just are not so great as you would claim they are. (like the 58 hour tutorial)
And when people speak out against it's popularity, you fans act like we are all crazy.
<--- not crazy
<--- just not crazy for Eve.
Get it now?
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
You've really not played much of any sandbox MMOs then. Every single one I've played had countless points of interest to explore, waiting to be discovered. The only difference is that you don't have quests holding your hand to lead you to them.
My apologies. I wasn't clear. I meant something more like what I just said above or otherwise having significant things to find (in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, not just a fun fact).
The first two games that come to mind are UO with its treasure maps and SOS bottles, and EVE with archaeology and wormhole space.
Sorry...you can cut Eve
So tired of the people wh rate this game so highly. I tested it. I played it after. I got bored.
Really not a good example to use and I wish the fans of Eve would stop. You like it....that's awesome. But it's like talking people into liking green beans. Might be good....but friggin YUCK!!!!
What?!?!
Because you don't like Eve people need to stop calling it a good or great game? Well I think WoW is shitty I guess people can stop talking about that also.
Wtf is this? "I hate that game so everyone should just stop enjoying it and using it in a discussion!!!"
Somethings wrong with people like you.
No....
I have played it and tested it. I also have been gaming since pong. I know what I like and don't.
You people who love Eve go out of your way to advertise it IMO. And it's false advertisement to me. All the posts I see speak of things that just are not so great as you would claim they are. (like the 58 hour tutorial)
And when people speak out against it's popularity, you fans act like we are all crazy.
<--- not crazy
<--- just not crazy for Eve.
Get it now?
Not every Eve post is directed toward you. Obviously if you dislike a game you can ignore the Eve fans saying the game is great.
I do the same with the WoW fans. No need to tell someone that Eve doesn't belong on their personal "awesome" list. Everyone has their own preferences.
Instead of saying eve sucks and giving some bullshit gaming history of yourself why don't you post a bit on why you dislike the game atleast that would lead to a discussion.
Oh and no one gives a shit if you played Pong.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Just funny here at MMORPG.com
Eve seems to be the "Holy Grail"
While WoW is "The Antichrist"
Just makes my roll my eyes.....
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
There are no true sandbox mmorpgs. The closest one out there is Second Life, and it's considered more of a giant chat room. Every other mmorpg is just varying levels of themepark. Some are more than others. Some give you more choices on how to advance, but none give you the total freedom that is the true definition of a sandbox mmorpg. All these "hardcore" gamers that post thread after thread about how they hate themepark games and casual gamers and claim their mmorpg is sandbox are just fooling themselves in a vain attempt to put other people down to make themselves feel special.
How COULD anyone choose a themepark over a sandbox, OP...
I will gladly play a good sandbox when you start paying for my sub... Until then,
.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Don't take the term sandbox so literally.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Don't take the term sandbox so literally.
Completey agree here. Too mach thinking and not enough just playing IMO.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
You've really not played much of any sandbox MMOs then. Every single one I've played had countless points of interest to explore, waiting to be discovered. The only difference is that you don't have quests holding your hand to lead you to them.
My apologies. I wasn't clear. I meant something more like what I just said above or otherwise having significant things to find (in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, not just a fun fact).
The first two games that come to mind are UO with its treasure maps and SOS bottles, and EVE with archaeology and wormhole space.
Sorry...you can cut Eve
So tired of the people wh rate this game so highly. I tested it. I played it after. I got bored.
Really not a good example to use and I wish the fans of Eve would stop. You like it....that's awesome. But it's like talking people into liking green beans. Might be good....but friggin YUCK!!!!
I never stated whether the game was good, bad or otherwise. The question was about games with exploration and significant things to find in terms of gameplay and how the world acts, and I presented two. Your post is a rant about EVE which is wholly unrelated to the topic at hand.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
OK, we understand, EVE was too much for you to handle, leave off already.
Doesn't change the fact it is a game with many sandbox features, whether or not you enjoy it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I hope future developers aren't checking this forum. All this themepark vs sandbox bullshit...these are things you put on your box for better marketing. You need elements from both types to make a fun game...but fun these days, nah.
It's either about cloning WoW or spitting out cool stuff like "Hardcore sandbox for the real gamer" made to hide the obviously bad game they made. I've yet to see another decent fantasy game, because there hasn't been one since WoW was released.
I wonder why the hell they call them MMORPGs anyway, RPG element is long dead in this genre and MMO one is reduced to MO.