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The Reason WoW Clones seem stail and not innovating, isnt because its a WoW clone, but because WoW t
tro44_1
Member Posts: 1,819
After reading a post by TheHatter in one of my other threads, something that he/she pointed out in his/her discussion over WoW clones, made me realize that most WoW clones are innovating.
(Quote) Someone obviously hasn't played much Warhammer. It really is almost a direct clone reskinned, dumbed down (yearh, it's possible lol) and a couple features added to WoW. It even feels like you're playing WoW, even with those couple features they added. If you have played and you still don't think it is, then I've always wondered something... How do brail monitors work? Or do you just have a program that reads stuff to you like in 7 Pounds?
SWG tried to clone WoW. If you deny that, you're just trolling.(/Quote)
the part in red is what really got to me. What I realize is that, most people rant on and calling them WoW clones, and saying things such as they are not innovating.
Yet what many fail to realize is that many so called WoW clones, are Simply building off of WoW. Just as WoW has built off of EQ, which built off DnD, ext.
But each time one of the past MMORPG historic clones did this, nobody seemd to complain as much.
For example. Warhammer, seems to build off of WoW, but trys to make a innovating approuch at adding DAoC elements into the mix, and changing it into a PvP focused game, with less Item worrying.
This may have failed in many fans eyes, but it still was innovating, in the same way, that WoW changed the Hard core settings of EQ, with more of the Classes being nothing but RTS units with more spells.
But where most of the Differences get over shadowed, is when Blizzard add New game Elements into WoW, before the (WoW Clone as we call it), comes out. Which basically diuls down the excitement over the newly things that New MMOs bring to the table.
I may sound like iam defending WoW clones, thats because I am.
Nobody can deny what I said about WoW taking new rivle mmo's innovating ideas, and adding them to the already polished WoW.
Just look at te past history of WoW, and their targeted MMO that they were bashing.---
----------------
WoW Vanilla: MMO target= EQ and EQ2
WoW TBC: TARGET= Guild Wars
WoW WoTLK: Target= Warhammer and AoC
WoW CAT: target = AION
-------------------
Blizzard always does this thrend. They take ideas from current hype threats, and improve on those ideas, and add them to polished old WoW. This is what makes many of the newer things that these Clones try to branch off into, seem Even more stail, with the Been there, done, that mind set.
Sorry for long rant btw
Comments
Most mmo often takes ideas off one another and implement into their own game. Nothing wrong regarding that, as long as its not a obvious rip off, like some game gona release in a few days time.
But they are stale because they offer nothing new coming out after WoW. Same things just different skin, a little favour added here and there. They do have innovative ideas, but very little. The whole of the game still feels like the same as WoW, and that's where the clone comes in...
RIP Orc Choppa
TBH the "WAR is a WOW clone" comments always sort of confuse me. The primary gameplay in WAR is RVR, which is wholly different from what you do in WOW.
Personally I can think of a lot of reasons why WAR failed to hit a homerun. None of them revolve around being a "clone" or not. I also see many reasons why they didn't meet with total failure.
For that matter it'd take some effort to convince me that WOW has incorporated Public Quests or RVR (the two defining WAR traits.) So from my point of view, very little of WAR's ideas are used in WOW.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
to the OP.
what you are describing is similar to how Paul ,when in The Beatles, would listen to what was popular coming out, find what was new and unique and immediatly incorporate it into what they were doing on their newest album.
to take the point further, this is why companies have departments and employees focused entirely on marketing. thats how businesses work. nothing amazing to discover about it and its funny that you seem to be just 'noticing' that this is how things play out in the world of business. i also apologize if that sounded condescending. i actually think you post is decent.
i will also add that i am a big Warcraft fan, since the first rts, and i fucking love The Beatles. so take that however i guess.
The term should be "EQ Clone" since wow basically took everything EQ had and streamlined it to the point where it was alot more player friendly.
Ima say its called "wow clone" since most people never even heard of an MMO before wow. EQ probaby had 750k subs vs wow's 11M so all these people never knew anything before it. imo
Could you say what features? only Achivements come to mind, but I didn't play GW, WAR or AoC so I don't know. And what is from Aion in Cataclysm?
Why people QQ when a new WoW clone comes out is because they have spent the last 2-3 years playing WoW and want something different. There is no denying games copying off each other. I swear SWTOR will have elements from traditional roleplaying games (as you pointed out) and also elements from WoW since it "works".
What gets me is that real innovation today is usually not backed with funding. But that is sound business I guess.
But let's be honest with ourselves. Do we really want innovation??? I bet when a new innovating game comes out we will simply bash it, not recognize it's uniqueness and QQ about it later. I'm pretty sure I would. Look at WAR which had, IMO, alot of innovating ideas. Bashed after a couple of months...
So stick with stuff that works but make it your own. Welcome to biznezz baby!
<<< Currently playing -> WoW, waiting for SWTOR >>> Favorite games developer - (old)Black Isle and Bioware. Most fun fantasy MMO currently dominating the market, WoW. Most fun Sci-Fi MMO out there, EvE online.
My blog - norrsken.wblogg.se
Could you say what features? only Achivements come to mind, but I didn't play GW, WAR or AoC so I don't know. And what is from Aion in Cataclysm?
I haven't played WoW myself but after having some numerous and lengthy talks with a WoW fan, we both came to a conclusion (he admitted) that a lot of the changes from vanilla WoW in regarding PvP was inspired by Guild Wars. My view has only been reinforced by talking to other people and reading these forums.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
No. You're not smart because you said that.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
All of us want/yearn for innovative games. Remember before War comes out? The hype regarding the RvR, PQ etc.... And needless to say hundred thousands of players flock to buy the game.
The game "fail" not because of being innovative, but because it doesn't. Small world, tons of bugs, T4 problems, boring pve, class issues, cc etc...
Imo, companies should continue to come out with new ideas, learn from those that have "fail" and come out with something new soon, else i believe this genre as we know it will die...
RIP Orc Choppa
If a player puts his focus more on the game mechanics (e.g. classes, skills, combat mechanics, crafting mechanics) then of course it will matter to him/her if these aspects were "cloned".
On the other hand if the player is more interested in the lore and the "evolving story", then it shouldn't matter whether the game mechanics were cloned. Provided the setting itself is distinct enough.
Well, you can always find some similarities behind game concepts. Why not call PvE MMOs a elaborated and rehashed version of "Gauntlet Online" ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauntlet_(arcade_game) , endlessly running through dungeons in a team or solo). Why not call PvP MMOs a elaborated and rehashed "Bomberman Online" ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomberman , compete against friends or strangers).
To return to the topic. Who's copying whom? It's the old "Chicken or the egg" problem ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_or_the_egg ). Even if a MMO targets a certain audience you will have all types of players, even those not targeted in the first place. A player won't stay forever with the same game, but more probably be switching games from time to time. And of course a player will get an idea of which game mechanics he/she likes or dislikes. Players will voice their wishes. And the developer will consider player's wishes and eventually include them into their own games.
This is probably the best argument for keeping a game under wraps and tight NDA prior to release.
If you have something innovative, the last thing you want to do is tell your competition.
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
Could you say what features? only Achivements come to mind, but I didn't play GW, WAR or AoC so I don't know. And what is from Aion in Cataclysm?
I haven't played WoW myself but after having some numerous and lengthy talks with a WoW fan, we both came to a conclusion (he admitted) that a lot of the changes from vanilla WoW in regarding PvP was inspired by Guild Wars. My view has only been reinforced by talking to other people and reading these forums.
Could you give an example of a feature that was copied by WoW from GW?
Could you give an example of a feature that was copied by WoW from GW?
I believe someone who has more experience from WoW might be more qualified. I can only give you an example how PvP was in the release of Guild Wars.
I cannot recall if vanilla WoW had arena battles at all.
GW on the otherhand had 4v4 arena from the start as well as a sort of ongoing mini tournament where one would go in with team of 8. Then there were 8v8 GvG matches as well. All instanced.
-Arena battles were pretty much just deathmatches with some small variances depending on the map played.
-The tournament or "Hall of Heroes" as it was called then (now I beliece its "Heroes Ascent") had multiple objectives varying from different maps. There were 8v8v8 King of the hill, (8v8)v(8v8) or even (8v8)v(8v8)v(8v8) Deathmatches, 8v8 Capture the flag. As a final battle there was (8v8)v8v(8v8) where the side teams would wipe each other out in a deathmatch and then the map would end in a 3-team king of the hill with the survivor of the last round (the winner of the last HoH).
-I will put GvG as simply as I can: 2 teams of 8 with a base(fortress) of their own with NPCs defending it. Main objective is to kill the Guild Lord(tough NPC) of the other team who sits in the base. There was also a flag stand. If a team would hold the stand for 120 consecutive seconds(2min) the team would get bonus maxhealth & maxmana as well as all their skills would be recharged. There was a respawn in their own base every 2min for the players who died but dying cause penalty to maxhealth & maxmana.
These 3 types of PvP were present at release - more came afterwards. WoW released about half a year earlier than GW but GW did have open betaweekends where some of these PvP types where played before WoW's release. I don't know if this is relevant or not but FYI.
More than anything we talked with my WoW playing friend about the GvG in GW and the WoWs version where there was a PvP type something like this. I hear it was something like 60v60 with some other secondary objective in the middle between the two bases than a flagstand where one team would get an advatage. Atleast this, I think, was a near direct copy of GW's GvG.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
No. You're not smart because you said that.
I never said I was smart. I'm simply stating a fact. Any monkey can do that.
<<< Currently playing -> WoW, waiting for SWTOR >>> Favorite games developer - (old)Black Isle and Bioware. Most fun fantasy MMO currently dominating the market, WoW. Most fun Sci-Fi MMO out there, EvE online.
My blog - norrsken.wblogg.se
No. You're not smart because you said that.
I never said I was smart. I'm simply stating a fact. Any monkey can do that.
I don't know what to say... Did you just call yourself a monkey? I respect you, sir.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
A game doesn't need to be innovative. Nothing matters if the game isn't fun to play. Gameplay > All. Period.
I'm just happy at least one MMO developer gets this concept (Blizzard).
No. You're not smart because you said that.
I never said I was smart. I'm simply stating a fact. Any monkey can do that.
I don't know what to say... Did you just call yourself a monkey? I respect you, sir.
Maybe or was it meant to provoke you into lateral thinking. Not sure.
<<< Currently playing -> WoW, waiting for SWTOR >>> Favorite games developer - (old)Black Isle and Bioware. Most fun fantasy MMO currently dominating the market, WoW. Most fun Sci-Fi MMO out there, EvE online.
My blog - norrsken.wblogg.se
No. You're not smart because you said that.
I never said I was smart. I'm simply stating a fact. Any monkey can do that.
I don't know what to say... Did you just call yourself a monkey? I respect you, sir.
Maybe or was it meant to provoke you into lateral thinking. Not sure.
Fail for both then. Cheers.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Could you give an example of a feature that was copied by WoW from GW?
I cannot recall if vanilla WoW had arena battles at all.
Nope, none at all.
They were introduced as small scale level 70 PvP content with the Burning Crusade expansion back in Jan '07.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Could you give an example of a feature that was copied by WoW from GW?
I believe someone who has more experience from WoW might be more qualified. I can only give you an example how PvP was in the release of Guild Wars.
I cannot recall if vanilla WoW had arena battles at all.
GW on the otherhand had 4v4 arena from the start as well as a sort of ongoing mini tournament where one would go in with team of 8. Then there were 8v8 GvG matches as well. All instanced.
-Arena battles were pretty much just deathmatches with some small variances depending on the map played.
-The tournament or "Hall of Heroes" as it was called then (now I beliece its "Heroes Ascent") had multiple objectives varying from different maps. There were 8v8v8 King of the hill, (8v8)v(8v8) or even (8v8)v(8v8)v(8v8) Deathmatches, 8v8 Capture the flag. As a final battle there was (8v8)v8v(8v8) where the side teams would wipe each other out in a deathmatch and then the map would end in a 3-team king of the hill with the survivor of the last round (the winner of the last HoH).
-I will put GvG as simply as I can: 2 teams of 8 with a base(fortress) of their own with NPCs defending it. Main objective is to kill the Guild Lord(tough NPC) of the other team who sits in the base. There was also a flag stand. If a team would hold the stand for 120 consecutive seconds(2min) the team would get bonus maxhealth & maxmana as well as all their skills would be recharged. There was a respawn in their own base every 2min for the players who died but dying cause penalty to maxhealth & maxmana.
These 3 types of PvP were present at release - more came afterwards. WoW released about half a year earlier than GW but GW did have open betaweekends where some of these PvP types where played before WoW's release. I don't know if this is relevant or not but FYI.
More than anything we talked with my WoW playing friend about the GvG in GW and the WoWs version where there was a PvP type something like this. I hear it was something like 60v60 with some other secondary objective in the middle between the two bases than a flagstand where one team would get an advatage. Atleast this, I think, was a near direct copy of GW's GvG.
I didn't remember either but seems that yes, Arena was introduced in the BC:
www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/burningcrusade/index.xml#arena
"WoW takes ideas of new games that build off of it, before they come out"
OMFG - you mean they're PSYCHIC!!! Flee... flee for your very LIVES!!!
Could you say what features? only Achivements come to mind, but I didn't play GW, WAR or AoC so I don't know. And what is from Aion in Cataclysm?
Arena was added for the GW players, Achievements, phasing and Wintergrasp for the WAR players and Since I havent tried Cat yet I have no comment on Aion players unless blizzard plans to add in Flight combat.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Arena was added for the GW players, Achievements, phasing and Wintergrasp for the WAR players and Since I havent tried Cat yet I have no comment on Aion players unless blizzard plans to add in Flight combat.
There was talk about in flight combat for WotLK, but what we got was couple PVE quests where you shoot NPCs.
Could you say what features? only Achivements come to mind, but I didn't play GW, WAR or AoC so I don't know. And what is from Aion in Cataclysm?
Arena was added for the GW players, Achievements, phasing and Wintergrasp for the WAR players and Since I havent tried Cat yet I have no comment on Aion players unless blizzard plans to add in Flight combat.
That's really a shallow way to say it. I mean, if I enjoyed WAR and GW, I wouldn't come to WoW just for those features. I can tell you what they plan for Cataclysm tho:
-A more sandboxish class customisation(By removing talents that simply increase a number, they'll add a lot more ability talents and talents that change your playstyle. Stat-increasing talents are replaced by Mastery system and Path of the Titans allows extra customisation through special DPS/Healer/Tank-wide abilities and stats). This one is rather big, it has the potential to change the way classes play by a lot and will offer more ways to play specs(For example, Shadow priests might now choose to play as a DoT class, as a nuker class or as a hybrid. I've read somewhere that they might give Frost-school magic to Shadow Priests. And this is only one of the 30 specs). I think it's a good idea.
-3.3 bringing battlegroup-wide LFG, and Blizzard is thinking to expand the "battlegroup-wide" features even more. Who knows, some day, realm communities may be extended to battlegroup communities.
-Guild leveling(Guild leveling will offer guild abilities like Mass Ressurection, more guild options and probably even a "Top 10 world guilds" laddership, depending on how they'll make the levels);
-Rated battlegrounds(With a more casual approach than arena, you won't lose any rating when you lose games, but you'll still need high rating for "bigger" rewards like gear, titles, mounts, etc);
-Hunters getting a huge revamp, their resource being replaced with an Energy-like bar called Focus(just like it should have been). Talent changing/Mastery/Path of the Titans will cause a lot of impact on them as well.
These might not be that original, but they fit into the game nicely. Overall, WoW will be a lot more customisable than it was in Vanilla/BC/WOTLK. This isn't just a "face revamp". Knowing how much Blizzard has to balance to not make arena horribly imbalanced, I wouldn't say it will be a simple clone of newly released MMOs.
Could you give an example of a feature that was copied by WoW from GW?
I believe someone who has more experience from WoW might be more qualified. I can only give you an example how PvP was in the release of Guild Wars.
I cannot recall if vanilla WoW had arena battles at all.
GW on the otherhand had 4v4 arena from the start as well as a sort of ongoing mini tournament where one would go in with team of 8. Then there were 8v8 GvG matches as well. All instanced.
-Arena battles were pretty much just deathmatches with some small variances depending on the map played.
-The tournament or "Hall of Heroes" as it was called then (now I beliece its "Heroes Ascent") had multiple objectives varying from different maps. There were 8v8v8 King of the hill, (8v8)v(8v8) or even (8v8)v(8v8)v(8v8) Deathmatches, 8v8 Capture the flag. As a final battle there was (8v8)v8v(8v8) where the side teams would wipe each other out in a deathmatch and then the map would end in a 3-team king of the hill with the survivor of the last round (the winner of the last HoH).
-I will put GvG as simply as I can: 2 teams of 8 with a base(fortress) of their own with NPCs defending it. Main objective is to kill the Guild Lord(tough NPC) of the other team who sits in the base. There was also a flag stand. If a team would hold the stand for 120 consecutive seconds(2min) the team would get bonus maxhealth & maxmana as well as all their skills would be recharged. There was a respawn in their own base every 2min for the players who died but dying cause penalty to maxhealth & maxmana.
These 3 types of PvP were present at release - more came afterwards. WoW released about half a year earlier than GW but GW did have open betaweekends where some of these PvP types where played before WoW's release. I don't know if this is relevant or not but FYI.
More than anything we talked with my WoW playing friend about the GvG in GW and the WoWs version where there was a PvP type something like this. I hear it was something like 60v60 with some other secondary objective in the middle between the two bases than a flagstand where one team would get an advatage. Atleast this, I think, was a near direct copy of GW's GvG.
Well, Capture the Flag/Base is a children's game and an army's exercise that has been around for maybe centuries. Arena combats, the same or older. So assuming WoW took that from GW is at least a matter of discussion...
And taking into account that GW's main feature is having to choose a fixed set of skills before entering the instance/arena, I don't know how can GW's and WoW's PvP relate...