Well, Capture the Flag/Base is a children's game and an army's exercise that has been around for maybe centuries. Arena combats, the same or older. So assuming WoW took that from GW is at least a matter of discussion... And taking into account that GW's main feature is having to choose a fixed set of skills before entering the instance/arena, I don't know how can GW's and WoW's PvP relate...
Who they took the CTF, KOTH or arena from is unimportant. To my knowledge GW was the first to incorporate these game types in an MMORPG type of combat. Blizzard saw how popular those features were in GW so they included those features in their own game. That is what this is about.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Personally I feel that it is not necessarily WHAT concept has been copied from another game (whether it is WoW or anything else for that matter), but it is HOW it is copied and subsequently refined that makes all the difference. And money does not guarantee success in doing that.
And this is what happens with certain games that came after WoW. The devs saw the concepts in WoW and attempted to integrate them into their own games, but did so in such a poor way that they failed to achieve their goal, and that was to attract a sizeable playerbase. But it's not Blizzard's fault if the competition fail to implement a feature or even the whole of their game badly.
On the other hand, this is why WoW is so popular, it takes concepts (both from previous games and new games) and refines them into a formula that many find appealing. No one can deny this fact. And this is what differentiates WoW from its so-called "WoW Clone" competitors.
Personally I feel that it is not necessarily WHAT concept has been copied from another game (whether it is WoW or anything else for that matter), but it is HOW it is copied and subsequently refined that makes all the difference. And money does not guarantee success in doing that. And this is what happens with certain games that came after WoW. The devs saw the concepts in WoW and attempted to integrate them into their own games, but did so in such a poor way that they failed to achieve their goal, and that was to attract a sizeable playerbase. On the other hand, this is why WoW is so popular, it took previous concepts and refined them into a formula that many find appealing. No one can deny this fact. And this is what differentiates WoW from its so-called "WoW Clone" competitors.
QFT - people arent mad that WoW stole their games ideas, they are mad that they did so and made it infinitely better. I dont kniw how blizzard does it, they just do.
Personally I feel that it is not necessarily WHAT concept has been copied from another game (whether it is WoW or anything else for that matter), but it is HOW it is copied and subsequently refined that makes all the difference. And money does not guarantee success in doing that. And this is what happens with certain games that came after WoW. The devs saw the concepts in WoW and attempted to integrate them into their own games, but did so in such a poor way that they failed to achieve their goal, and that was to attract a sizeable playerbase. On the other hand, this is why WoW is so popular, it took previous concepts and refined them into a formula that many find appealing. No one can deny this fact. And this is what differentiates WoW from its so-called "WoW Clone" competitors.
QFT - people arent mad that WoW stole their games ideas, they are mad that they did so and made it infinitely better. I dont kniw how blizzard does it, they just do.
It all depends on the mindset of the developers. I'm not saying WoW is perfect. Not by any means. However, the things it DOES do right far outweigh the things it doesn't do right. And thats why it continues to dominate the market.
MMO devs throughout the industry have to realise that the first hurdle they have to overcome is to match WoW in terms of quality in how Blizzard implement its elements (e.g. a full leveling experience, end game that has acheived a reasonable level of quality in terms of solo/group and raid gameplay). No half-assed quest system that only covers 50% of the levels. No stunning graphics that can only be run on a NASA computer. No gameworld who's playfields are vastly wide apart and connected by insta-travel. No cumbersome UI that deliberately hardwork to use. Game servers and client software that can stand having more than 6 people in view. Only once they achieve this goal of quality can MMO devs possibly hope to then build on that good foundation by applying the unique features that sets their game apart from its competition (e.g. sandbox elements, unique dungeon experiences, interesting forms of travel, housing, crafting, etc, etc).
Just like any other industry, the MMO market needs to come to terms with this mindset shift. No longer can devs hope to churn out a low-quality product any more and expect to ride it out by spending the next 2 years implementing even the most basic elements. Not if they want a solid playerbase that will keep with them for longer than a month. The MMO playerbase expects a certain level of quality, and it will be quick to point out any that don't. So rather than shying away from what WoW has accomplished, MMO devs should be using WoW as the benchmark (in terms of quality NOT necessarily features).
I look forward to the day of hearing about an MMO that not only matches the WoW quality level, but then surpasses it by adding its own unique featureset which has the equal level of quality.
After reading a post by TheHatter in one of my other threads, something that he/she pointed out in his/her discussion over WoW clones, made me realize that most WoW clones are innovating. (Quote) Someone obviously hasn't played much Warhammer. It really is almost a direct clone reskinned, dumbed down (yearh, it's possible lol) and a couple features added to WoW. It even feels like you're playing WoW, even with those couple features they added. If you have played and you still don't think it is, then I've always wondered something... How do brail monitors work? Or do you just have a program that reads stuff to you like in 7 Pounds? SWG tried to clone WoW. If you deny that, you're just trolling.(/Quote)
the part in red is what really got to me. What I realize is that, most people rant on and calling them WoW clones, and saying things such as they are not innovating. Yet what many fail to realize is that many so called WoW clones, are Simply building off of WoW. Just as WoW has built off of EQ, which built off DnD, ext. But each time one of the past MMORPG historic clones did this, nobody seemd to complain as much. For example. Warhammer, seems to build off of WoW, but trys to make a innovating approuch at adding DAoC elements into the mix, and changing it into a PvP focused game, with less Item worrying. This may have failed in many fans eyes, but it still was innovating, in the same way, that WoW changed the Hard core settings of EQ, with more of the Classes being nothing but RTS units with more spells. But where most of the Differences get over shadowed, is when Blizzard add New game Elements into WoW, before the (WoW Clone as we call it), comes out. Which basically diuls down the excitement over the newly things that New MMOs bring to the table.
I may sound like iam defending WoW clones, thats because I am. Nobody can deny what I said about WoW taking new rivle mmo's innovating ideas, and adding them to the already polished WoW. Just look at te past history of WoW, and their targeted MMO that they were bashing.--- ---------------- WoW Vanilla: MMO target= EQ and EQ2 WoW TBC: TARGET= Guild Wars WoW WoTLK: Target= Warhammer and AoC WoW CAT: target = AION ------------------- Blizzard always does this thrend. They take ideas from current hype threats, and improve on those ideas, and add them to polished old WoW. This is what makes many of the newer things that these Clones try to branch off into, seem Even more stail, with the Been there, done, that mind set.
Sorry for long rant btw
The biggest problem I have with the entire "wow clone" argument is that it's a largely baseless and irrelevant topic that is only used as a blanket statement to convey that the particular product did not excite that person enough to not recieve criticism. Let me say it this way, what offline/console RPG did you play that was radically different from the others? I've played most of them from KOTRO,FF,Phantasy Star,Star Ocean and the list goes on and on.
Many of these games shared features and the prevelant complaint was rarely "this is a <insert last game here> clone!" for one the audience was younger and I think still more open about what they found to be "fun" about playing video games, I can really only speculate here. But the point remains most video game genres use very similar systems to each other and for myriad reasons only mmo players whine and moan over "cloning".
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
The biggest problem I have with the entire "wow clone" argument is that it's a largely baseless and irrelevant topic that is only used as a blanket statement to convey that the particular product did not excite that person enough to not recieve criticism. Let me say it this way, what offline/console RPG did you play that was radically different from the others? I've played most of them from KOTRO,FF,Phantasy Star,Star Ocean and the list goes on and on. Many of these games shared features and the prevelant complaint was rarely "this is a <insert last game here> clone!" for one the audience was younger and I think still more open about what they found to be "fun" about playing video games, I can really only speculate here. But the point remains most video game genres use very similar systems to each other and for myriad reasons only mmo players whine and moan over "cloning".
Maybe MMOs don't have to be exclusively RPG. RPG is just one part of the MMO experience and there is no reason why there shouldn't be MMOFPSs, MMORTSs or even MMOracingsims. Single player games offer many different ways to play, from game mechanics to settings, so it is very different from the current situation in the MMO space.
What you have now is extremely limited playground only with different kinds of swings, and honestly, swings are kind of a grind.
Even the RPG genre is poorly represented, where are Oblivions and Mass Effects that offer that core roleplaying mechanic using different mechanics and settings? And I mean done well and worth playing, not something you need to finance until it gets to a playable state.
At least that's my take on it, stop looking at RPGs as the only way to do an MMO.
So stick with stuff that works but make it your own. Welcome to biznezz baby!
No. You're not smart because you said that.
I never said I was smart. I'm simply stating a fact. Any monkey can do that.
I don't know what to say... Did you just call yourself a monkey? I respect you, sir.
Maybe or was it meant to provoke you into lateral thinking. Not sure.
Fail for both then. Cheers.
Abit late Quirhid but here goes.
My meaning was that humans are linked to monkeys and on occasion we may act like monkeys. Simple. Like what I'm about to write now. I think we are all, including myself, talking crap when multimillion dollar companies design games with the sole purpose of addicting people. Why is this so you ask? Because it generates cash flow. What other reason would there be. Why do americans fight on foreign soil 100% of the time? Resources. Take your fucking pick mate. Who gets recruited first? The older or younger people? Check the EvE banner running on top of the page (no offense), no credit card required. Need I say more. Big bizznezz. Do I have to be smart to know this?
It's not about the essence of gaming anymore (R.I.P FFVII). Yeah I'm crying but I long for the times when a game could hold me in it's grip AND keep me in suspense. Now it's equipment this, equipment that. Communicate. TEAM WORK. Get more and be big and powerful. Take control in our virtual world since you lack it in the real world. And while you are at it we are going to throw in some other side effects from online gaming. It pisses me off.
So yeah excuse me if I think we behave like monkeys from time to time.
<<< Currently playing -> WoW, waiting for SWTOR >>> Favorite games developer - (old)Black Isle and Bioware. Most fun fantasy MMO currently dominating the market, WoW. Most fun Sci-Fi MMO out there, EvE online.
Maybe I missed something, but where in that entire post is there any correlation between humans and monkeys. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I fail to see the relevance when talking about MMOs. Also, when looking at research into how monkeys actually behave it's pretty impressive given their current state of development. When talking about mass community situations (ie MMOs) I believe you'll find a lot more relevance when looking at it from a herd mentality perspective.
Maybe I missed something, but where in that entire post is there any correlation between humans and monkeys. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I fail to see the relevance when talking about MMOs. Also, when looking at research into how monkeys actually behave it's pretty impressive given their current state of development. When talking about mass community situations (ie MMOs) I believe you'll find a lot more relevance when looking at it from a herd mentality perspective.
The relevance is this. Do MMO's promote anything positive to our world. Do we enrich our world somehow. Do we feel enriched by playing an MMO. Or are we just in an online rat-race. Note:I used rat this time
When I used to play games I would usually feel good after a session. I'm not saying I don't feel good in MMO's. I do but that's not the point. I took something FROM those games and expressed them in the real world.
Now we log on to raid. Log off. Log on to say hi. Log off. Log on to do dailies. Log off. Where is the game? The puzzles. The choices. The EMOTION FFS.
(EDIT - Dammit maybe I'm just getting older)
<<< Currently playing -> WoW, waiting for SWTOR >>> Favorite games developer - (old)Black Isle and Bioware. Most fun fantasy MMO currently dominating the market, WoW. Most fun Sci-Fi MMO out there, EvE online.
Warhammer was built off of DARK AGE OF CAMELOT (yeah you know that game that came out after EQ and BEFORE WoW and was pretty popular around 2002-2004-and it was made by Mythic?). Mythic made Dark Age of Camelot before they made WAR and they built WAR off of that--like the whole faction v. faction idea---they got that from daoc (rvr).
Anyone who says WAR is built of WoW, hasn't played DAoC- and WoW is probably their first MMO.
Also, I don't think WoW was built off EQ- but that's not to say that Blizzard didn't use EQ as a guide or w/e.
Maybe I missed something, but where in that entire post is there any correlation between humans and monkeys. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I fail to see the relevance when talking about MMOs. Also, when looking at research into how monkeys actually behave it's pretty impressive given their current state of development. When talking about mass community situations (ie MMOs) I believe you'll find a lot more relevance when looking at it from a herd mentality perspective.
The relevance is this. Do MMO's promote anything positive to our world. Do we enrich our world somehow. Do we feel enriched by playing an MMO. Or are we just in an online rat-race. Note:I used rat this time
When I used to play games I would usually feel good after a session. I'm not saying I don't feel good in MMO's. I do but that's not the point. I took something FROM those games and expressed them in the real world.
Now we log on to raid. Log off. Log on to say hi. Log off. Log on to do dailies. Log off. Where is the game? The puzzles. The choices. The EMOTION FFS.
(EDIT - Dammit maybe I'm just getting older)
Dude, if you want emotion, read a good book or play an adventure game. You won't find any of those things in MMOs. Sorry.
Games are about having fun. Period. Everyone has different ideas of fun, of course. And therein lies the problem. People can't seem to cope with the fact that others enjoy different things. Unable to see things from another perspective than their own.
After reading a post by TheHatter in one of my other threads, something that he/she pointed out in his/her discussion over WoW clones, made me realize that most WoW clones are innovating. (Quote) Someone obviously hasn't played much Warhammer. It really is almost a direct clone reskinned, dumbed down (yearh, it's possible lol) and a couple features added to WoW. It even feels like you're playing WoW, even with those couple features they added. If you have played and you still don't think it is, then I've always wondered something... How do brail monitors work? Or do you just have a program that reads stuff to you like in 7 Pounds? SWG tried to clone WoW. If you deny that, you're just trolling.(/Quote)
the part in red is what really got to me. What I realize is that, most people rant on and calling them WoW clones, and saying things such as they are not innovating. Yet what many fail to realize is that many so called WoW clones, are Simply building off of WoW. Just as WoW has built off of EQ, which built off DnD, ext. But each time one of the past MMORPG historic clones did this, nobody seemd to complain as much. For example. Warhammer, seems to build off of WoW, but trys to make a innovating approuch at adding DAoC elements into the mix, and changing it into a PvP focused game, with less Item worrying. This may have failed in many fans eyes, but it still was innovating, in the same way, that WoW changed the Hard core settings of EQ, with more of the Classes being nothing but RTS units with more spells. But where most of the Differences get over shadowed, is when Blizzard add New game Elements into WoW, before the (WoW Clone as we call it), comes out. Which basically diuls down the excitement over the newly things that New MMOs bring to the table.
I may sound like iam defending WoW clones, thats because I am. Nobody can deny what I said about WoW taking new rivle mmo's innovating ideas, and adding them to the already polished WoW. Just look at te past history of WoW, and their targeted MMO that they were bashing.--- ---------------- WoW Vanilla: MMO target= EQ and EQ2 WoW TBC: TARGET= Guild Wars WoW WoTLK: Target= Warhammer and AoC WoW CAT: target = AION ------------------- Blizzard always does this thrend. They take ideas from current hype threats, and improve on those ideas, and add them to polished old WoW. This is what makes many of the newer things that these Clones try to branch off into, seem Even more stail, with the Been there, done, that mind set.
Sorry for long rant btw
That is so true I said this along time ago and people didn't want to hear It. the SWtor DEV know this by now and thats why you can't get so much as a fake screen shot of SWtor if they don't want It out, hell still don't even know the races.
But yeah I remember Warhammer WoW Riped them off bad lol
World Battleground Que
Achievements
Hunters redesigned Jumpback Disengage
O god I can go on with tons of other games, SO word to the wise DEV. keep a tight lip on It hell Ill even go as far as no info at all up till closed beta.save the hype for the last few months, so no e3 show sneeks nothing just let the people know that Its in the making then BAM closed beta lol
WoW took Aion's stigma system and added the glyph system, which is almost an exact replica. If you like through the discussions during Wotlk launch you,l see lots of talk of making Hunters more melee focused. Aka Aion style, i assume but not certain that Death knights Death grip skill was also 'Borrowed' from Aion's templar.
Flying mounts were made way cheaper after years of insignificant changes, all to counter 'Aion has flying' marketing gimmick.
Ofcourse, this shouldnt come as a surprise, infact this is how all MMO developers should work. Innovation equals success is a rarity, copy and improve is much proven concept.
We,l see if Diablo3 copying God of War works out too.
Improve Aion's Graphics with a simple text file that you can create by yourself:
-Increase in-game Field of View to 175% or more
-Increase view distance for players to 100 meters with camera at max distance
The biggest problem I have with the entire "wow clone" argument is that it's a largely baseless and irrelevant topic that is only used as a blanket statement to convey that the particular product did not excite that person enough to not recieve criticism. Let me say it this way, what offline/console RPG did you play that was radically different from the others? I've played most of them from KOTRO,FF,Phantasy Star,Star Ocean and the list goes on and on. Many of these games shared features and the prevelant complaint was rarely "this is a <insert last game here> clone!" for one the audience was younger and I think still more open about what they found to be "fun" about playing video games, I can really only speculate here. But the point remains most video game genres use very similar systems to each other and for myriad reasons only mmo players whine and moan over "cloning".
Maybe MMOs don't have to be exclusively RPG. RPG is just one part of the MMO experience and there is no reason why there shouldn't be MMOFPSs, MMORTSs or even MMOracingsims. Single player games offer many different ways to play, from game mechanics to settings, so it is very different from the current situation in the MMO space.
What you have now is extremely limited playground only with different kinds of swings, and honestly, swings are kind of a grind.
Even the RPG genre is poorly represented, where are Oblivions and Mass Effects that offer that core roleplaying mechanic using different mechanics and settings? And I mean done well and worth playing, not something you need to finance until it gets to a playable state.
At least that's my take on it, stop looking at RPGs as the only way to do an MMO.
I dont think you get the point. It is human nature to copy and Improve on whats already been done. If we didnt do this, then there would be only one type of Car, or one type of Computer, and so on so on. get the picture yet? this logic goesnt just fit to RPG, but it fits everywhere.
WoW took Aion's stigma system and added the glyph system, which is almost an exact replica. If you like through the discussions during Wotlk launch you,l see lots of talk of making Hunters more melee focused. Aka Aion style, i assume but not certain that Death knights Death grip skill was also 'Borrowed' from Aion's templar. Flying mounts were made way cheaper after years of insignificant changes, all to counter 'Aion has flying' marketing gimmick. Ofcourse, this shouldnt come as a surprise, infact this is how all MMO developers should work. Innovation equals success is a rarity, copy and improve is much proven concept. We,l see if Diablo3 copying God of War works out too.
Blizzard keep it no secret that they make games based on what they like. The great thing about Blizzard though is they take from other people and make it ten times better and that is why they're one of the best developers around. Just a frigging shame thanx to WoW we wont be seeing Warcraft 4 until at least 2013
WoW Vanilla: MMO target= EQ and EQ2 WoW TBC: TARGET= Guild Wars WoW WoTLK: Target= Warhammer and AoC WoW CAT: target = AION ------------------- Blizzard always does this thrend. They take ideas from current hype threats, and improve on those ideas, and add them to polished old WoW. This is what makes many of the newer things that these Clones try to branch off into, seem Even more stail, with the Been there, done, that mind set.
Sorry for long rant btw
Could you say what features? only Achivements come to mind, but I didn't play GW, WAR or AoC so I don't know. And what is from Aion in Cataclysm?
My bad for taking so long to post, my computer net was acting up.
But here I go, not all, but a good chunk of it.
WOW and OTHER
----------------------------
TBC = GUILD WARS:
Arena PvP = Arena PvP
Heroics = Hard Mode
Gems = part of the Upgrading system (with weapon handles and such, but forgot what it called), and the Guild Wars inscription system.(yes I know this also came from Diablo)
Smaller Raids 10units = Norm Large Groups in GW of 8 units
More PvE and PvP gear seperation = PvP Gear system
Massive Rep Grinding = Guild Wars main PvE focus
Eye of the Storm (with its Caping system of # standing near by a cap objective) = Alliance Battles plus GvG (yes I know WoW had this # caping tower system in Vanilla's Plague Lands also)
Blood Elf Dance = Even riped from Ritualist Dance (ok not big deal, Neo Di I know)
Flying Everywhere = Aion's Flying hype (yes I knwo you cant fly everywhere)
Even the Name of the Xpac = Check out the Site's info page, and you can see the Catalysm as the word writen all over it. (I also found that interesting)
New PvP zone = The Abbidis (what ever you spell it) the PvP system in Aion.
Return of Flying Sieges = Aion's Flying combat
The World itself being torn apart = The Aion's whole Faction vs Faction visual Role Playing concept (yes I know Mastrom has a strong part in Warcraft Lore as being a big rift in the planet)
Also you can see some Darkfall in Cat as well, as somebody pointed out above, as Blizzard trys to become more Sandbox like
CAT = Darkfall
Worgen = Wolf Race in Darkfall (yes I know the Worgen as a playable race was planed long before Vanilla)
Talent System revamped = Skill System
------------------------------
Again like I said. Iam not trying to rant on WoW, or even the idea of cloning. I support it. Because it is human nature to copy and try to improve on ideas. Just stop and think about it for a moment.
If TBC, WoTLK, and Cat never came out, then how would the WoW vs WAR argument would have turned out? or the WoW vs AION, or the WoW vs Whatever? Think about that for a second.
That seems a bit stretched... at least from the few ones I can compare. While seems proved that it's true WOW keeps up with new ideas from other new MMOs, they do it in their own way, for the looks of what you posted.
That seems a bit stretched... at least from the few ones I can compare. While seems proved that it's true WOW keeps up with new ideas from other new MMOs, they do it in their own way, for the looks of what you posted.
I agree with wow has huge staff but to be able copy idea implement them in short period is pretty hard.With that said you can't deny that wow out right takes games best features tome knowledge,battlegrounds,etc.. I am suprised WoW does have public quests yet.I don't think WoW tries to take ideas before games come out but if games comes out or is in the process being released and they like idea they don't hesitate to put it their game as quickly as possible.
Dont forget WAR implemented gaining XP from PVP. They also had a feature that allowed you to join a battleground from anywhere in the world...
WoW soon added those features. I'd play WAR but WOW has pretty much all of WARS features and more! Plus WoW's movment, combat and general game play is more fluent. WARs classes all felt the same.
Dont forget WAR implemented gaining XP from PVP. They also had a feature that allowed you to join a battleground from anywhere in the world... WoW soon added those features. I'd play WAR but WOW has pretty much all of WARS features and more! Plus WoW's movment, combat and general game play is more fluent. WARs classes all felt the same.
To correct you sir/ma'am, GW had xp/items/reputation/unlock points to be had from PvP from the get-go.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Dont forget WAR implemented gaining XP from PVP. They also had a feature that allowed you to join a battleground from anywhere in the world... WoW soon added those features. I'd play WAR but WOW has pretty much all of WARS features and more! Plus WoW's movment, combat and general game play is more fluent. WARs classes all felt the same.
I was gaining XP in PVP in EQ2 long before WAR came out. And I was looting gold and items from PVP. I didnt play it, but you'll probably find PVP in EQ1 was also giving level ups 10 years ago...
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
I dislike WoW, for many reasons, but i am not a hater in any way. For a lot of people its casual style gameplay is refreshing.
They jump on the market to compete with other games really fast. I am sure there are more examples of this but i know this because i was following WAR's release.
The Tome of Knowledge idea was out there and soon after WoW announced that WoTLK would have an achievement system simular to that of the ToK. By no means is this "stealing the idea" as it was in LOTRO and all the next gen consoles, but it succesfully ruined some of WARs hype to the WoW players because they are no longer looking at a new feature in WAR, making WAR seem more like a WoW Clone.
The day war launched, Blizzard allowed trasnfers from PvE to PvP realms, attempting to make the people that liked RVR more interested in coming back to WoW after their month trial.
This is a genius technique to keeping players. Although i find it rather annoying because i want to see the MMO market expand..
Dont forget WAR implemented gaining XP from PVP. They also had a feature that allowed you to join a battleground from anywhere in the world... WoW soon added those features. I'd play WAR but WOW has pretty much all of WARS features and more! Plus WoW's movment, combat and general game play is more fluent. WARs classes all felt the same.
To correct you sir/ma'am, GW had xp/items/reputation/unlock points to be had from PvP from the get-go.
That may be so. I think its no conicidence that WOW implemented those things just after WARS release. I dont think Blizzard worried to much about EQ1/2 (No compition) or even Guild Wars. I believe tho that WAR did hurt WOW somewhat and therefore WOW decided to take a few features from WAR knowing they'd implement them alot better. Also getting back any subs they may have lost. I hope I've got my point across. Maybe I didnt explain myslef clearer before.
Comments
Who they took the CTF, KOTH or arena from is unimportant. To my knowledge GW was the first to incorporate these game types in an MMORPG type of combat. Blizzard saw how popular those features were in GW so they included those features in their own game. That is what this is about.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Personally I feel that it is not necessarily WHAT concept has been copied from another game (whether it is WoW or anything else for that matter), but it is HOW it is copied and subsequently refined that makes all the difference. And money does not guarantee success in doing that.
And this is what happens with certain games that came after WoW. The devs saw the concepts in WoW and attempted to integrate them into their own games, but did so in such a poor way that they failed to achieve their goal, and that was to attract a sizeable playerbase. But it's not Blizzard's fault if the competition fail to implement a feature or even the whole of their game badly.
On the other hand, this is why WoW is so popular, it takes concepts (both from previous games and new games) and refines them into a formula that many find appealing. No one can deny this fact. And this is what differentiates WoW from its so-called "WoW Clone" competitors.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
QFT - people arent mad that WoW stole their games ideas, they are mad that they did so and made it infinitely better. I dont kniw how blizzard does it, they just do.
QFT - people arent mad that WoW stole their games ideas, they are mad that they did so and made it infinitely better. I dont kniw how blizzard does it, they just do.
It all depends on the mindset of the developers. I'm not saying WoW is perfect. Not by any means. However, the things it DOES do right far outweigh the things it doesn't do right. And thats why it continues to dominate the market.
MMO devs throughout the industry have to realise that the first hurdle they have to overcome is to match WoW in terms of quality in how Blizzard implement its elements (e.g. a full leveling experience, end game that has acheived a reasonable level of quality in terms of solo/group and raid gameplay). No half-assed quest system that only covers 50% of the levels. No stunning graphics that can only be run on a NASA computer. No gameworld who's playfields are vastly wide apart and connected by insta-travel. No cumbersome UI that deliberately hardwork to use. Game servers and client software that can stand having more than 6 people in view. Only once they achieve this goal of quality can MMO devs possibly hope to then build on that good foundation by applying the unique features that sets their game apart from its competition (e.g. sandbox elements, unique dungeon experiences, interesting forms of travel, housing, crafting, etc, etc).
Just like any other industry, the MMO market needs to come to terms with this mindset shift. No longer can devs hope to churn out a low-quality product any more and expect to ride it out by spending the next 2 years implementing even the most basic elements. Not if they want a solid playerbase that will keep with them for longer than a month. The MMO playerbase expects a certain level of quality, and it will be quick to point out any that don't. So rather than shying away from what WoW has accomplished, MMO devs should be using WoW as the benchmark (in terms of quality NOT necessarily features).
I look forward to the day of hearing about an MMO that not only matches the WoW quality level, but then surpasses it by adding its own unique featureset which has the equal level of quality.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
The biggest problem I have with the entire "wow clone" argument is that it's a largely baseless and irrelevant topic that is only used as a blanket statement to convey that the particular product did not excite that person enough to not recieve criticism. Let me say it this way, what offline/console RPG did you play that was radically different from the others? I've played most of them from KOTRO,FF,Phantasy Star,Star Ocean and the list goes on and on.
Many of these games shared features and the prevelant complaint was rarely "this is a <insert last game here> clone!" for one the audience was younger and I think still more open about what they found to be "fun" about playing video games, I can really only speculate here. But the point remains most video game genres use very similar systems to each other and for myriad reasons only mmo players whine and moan over "cloning".
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Maybe MMOs don't have to be exclusively RPG. RPG is just one part of the MMO experience and there is no reason why there shouldn't be MMOFPSs, MMORTSs or even MMOracingsims. Single player games offer many different ways to play, from game mechanics to settings, so it is very different from the current situation in the MMO space.
What you have now is extremely limited playground only with different kinds of swings, and honestly, swings are kind of a grind.
Even the RPG genre is poorly represented, where are Oblivions and Mass Effects that offer that core roleplaying mechanic using different mechanics and settings? And I mean done well and worth playing, not something you need to finance until it gets to a playable state.
At least that's my take on it, stop looking at RPGs as the only way to do an MMO.
No. You're not smart because you said that.
I never said I was smart. I'm simply stating a fact. Any monkey can do that.
I don't know what to say... Did you just call yourself a monkey? I respect you, sir.
Maybe or was it meant to provoke you into lateral thinking. Not sure.
Fail for both then. Cheers.
Abit late Quirhid but here goes.
My meaning was that humans are linked to monkeys and on occasion we may act like monkeys. Simple. Like what I'm about to write now. I think we are all, including myself, talking crap when multimillion dollar companies design games with the sole purpose of addicting people. Why is this so you ask? Because it generates cash flow. What other reason would there be. Why do americans fight on foreign soil 100% of the time? Resources. Take your fucking pick mate. Who gets recruited first? The older or younger people? Check the EvE banner running on top of the page (no offense), no credit card required. Need I say more. Big bizznezz. Do I have to be smart to know this?
It's not about the essence of gaming anymore (R.I.P FFVII). Yeah I'm crying but I long for the times when a game could hold me in it's grip AND keep me in suspense. Now it's equipment this, equipment that. Communicate. TEAM WORK. Get more and be big and powerful. Take control in our virtual world since you lack it in the real world. And while you are at it we are going to throw in some other side effects from online gaming. It pisses me off.
So yeah excuse me if I think we behave like monkeys from time to time.
<<< Currently playing -> WoW, waiting for SWTOR >>> Favorite games developer - (old)Black Isle and Bioware. Most fun fantasy MMO currently dominating the market, WoW. Most fun Sci-Fi MMO out there, EvE online.
My blog - norrsken.wblogg.se
Maybe I missed something, but where in that entire post is there any correlation between humans and monkeys. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I fail to see the relevance when talking about MMOs. Also, when looking at research into how monkeys actually behave it's pretty impressive given their current state of development. When talking about mass community situations (ie MMOs) I believe you'll find a lot more relevance when looking at it from a herd mentality perspective.
The relevance is this. Do MMO's promote anything positive to our world. Do we enrich our world somehow. Do we feel enriched by playing an MMO. Or are we just in an online rat-race. Note:I used rat this time
When I used to play games I would usually feel good after a session. I'm not saying I don't feel good in MMO's. I do but that's not the point. I took something FROM those games and expressed them in the real world.
Now we log on to raid. Log off. Log on to say hi. Log off. Log on to do dailies. Log off. Where is the game? The puzzles. The choices. The EMOTION FFS.
(EDIT - Dammit maybe I'm just getting older)
<<< Currently playing -> WoW, waiting for SWTOR >>> Favorite games developer - (old)Black Isle and Bioware. Most fun fantasy MMO currently dominating the market, WoW. Most fun Sci-Fi MMO out there, EvE online.
My blog - norrsken.wblogg.se
Let's get something straight here...
Warhammer was built off of DARK AGE OF CAMELOT (yeah you know that game that came out after EQ and BEFORE WoW and was pretty popular around 2002-2004-and it was made by Mythic?). Mythic made Dark Age of Camelot before they made WAR and they built WAR off of that--like the whole faction v. faction idea---they got that from daoc (rvr).
Anyone who says WAR is built of WoW, hasn't played DAoC- and WoW is probably their first MMO.
Also, I don't think WoW was built off EQ- but that's not to say that Blizzard didn't use EQ as a guide or w/e.
The relevance is this. Do MMO's promote anything positive to our world. Do we enrich our world somehow. Do we feel enriched by playing an MMO. Or are we just in an online rat-race. Note:I used rat this time
When I used to play games I would usually feel good after a session. I'm not saying I don't feel good in MMO's. I do but that's not the point. I took something FROM those games and expressed them in the real world.
Now we log on to raid. Log off. Log on to say hi. Log off. Log on to do dailies. Log off. Where is the game? The puzzles. The choices. The EMOTION FFS.
(EDIT - Dammit maybe I'm just getting older)
Dude, if you want emotion, read a good book or play an adventure game. You won't find any of those things in MMOs. Sorry.
Games are about having fun. Period. Everyone has different ideas of fun, of course. And therein lies the problem. People can't seem to cope with the fact that others enjoy different things. Unable to see things from another perspective than their own.
That is so true I said this along time ago and people didn't want to hear It. the SWtor DEV know this by now and thats why you can't get so much as a fake screen shot of SWtor if they don't want It out, hell still don't even know the races.
But yeah I remember Warhammer WoW Riped them off bad lol
World Battleground Que
Achievements
Hunters redesigned Jumpback Disengage
O god I can go on with tons of other games, SO word to the wise DEV. keep a tight lip on It hell Ill even go as far as no info at all up till closed beta.save the hype for the last few months, so no e3 show sneeks nothing just let the people know that Its in the making then BAM closed beta lol
The last good mmorpg was WoW in 2004 and every mmorpg I liked has been ruined by turning it into WoW like SWG.
Interesting read, and mostly true.
WoW took Aion's stigma system and added the glyph system, which is almost an exact replica. If you like through the discussions during Wotlk launch you,l see lots of talk of making Hunters more melee focused. Aka Aion style, i assume but not certain that Death knights Death grip skill was also 'Borrowed' from Aion's templar.
Flying mounts were made way cheaper after years of insignificant changes, all to counter 'Aion has flying' marketing gimmick.
Ofcourse, this shouldnt come as a surprise, infact this is how all MMO developers should work. Innovation equals success is a rarity, copy and improve is much proven concept.
We,l see if Diablo3 copying God of War works out too.
Improve Aion's Graphics with a simple text file that you can create by yourself:
-Increase in-game Field of View to 175% or more
-Increase view distance for players to 100 meters with camera at max distance
-Lots of other settings
Learn how by reading this guide at Aionsource
http://www.aionsource.com/forum/general-guides/84379-definite-guide-aions-graphical-settings-performance-tips.html
Maybe MMOs don't have to be exclusively RPG. RPG is just one part of the MMO experience and there is no reason why there shouldn't be MMOFPSs, MMORTSs or even MMOracingsims. Single player games offer many different ways to play, from game mechanics to settings, so it is very different from the current situation in the MMO space.
What you have now is extremely limited playground only with different kinds of swings, and honestly, swings are kind of a grind.
Even the RPG genre is poorly represented, where are Oblivions and Mass Effects that offer that core roleplaying mechanic using different mechanics and settings? And I mean done well and worth playing, not something you need to finance until it gets to a playable state.
At least that's my take on it, stop looking at RPGs as the only way to do an MMO.
I dont think you get the point. It is human nature to copy and Improve on whats already been done. If we didnt do this, then there would be only one type of Car, or one type of Computer, and so on so on. get the picture yet? this logic goesnt just fit to RPG, but it fits everywhere.
Blizzard keep it no secret that they make games based on what they like. The great thing about Blizzard though is they take from other people and make it ten times better and that is why they're one of the best developers around. Just a frigging shame thanx to WoW we wont be seeing Warcraft 4 until at least 2013
Could you say what features? only Achivements come to mind, but I didn't play GW, WAR or AoC so I don't know. And what is from Aion in Cataclysm?
My bad for taking so long to post, my computer net was acting up.
But here I go, not all, but a good chunk of it.
WOW and OTHER
----------------------------
TBC = GUILD WARS:
Arena PvP = Arena PvP
Heroics = Hard Mode
Gems = part of the Upgrading system (with weapon handles and such, but forgot what it called), and the Guild Wars inscription system.(yes I know this also came from Diablo)
Smaller Raids 10units = Norm Large Groups in GW of 8 units
More PvE and PvP gear seperation = PvP Gear system
Massive Rep Grinding = Guild Wars main PvE focus
Eye of the Storm (with its Caping system of # standing near by a cap objective) = Alliance Battles plus GvG (yes I know WoW had this # caping tower system in Vanilla's Plague Lands also)
Blood Elf Dance = Even riped from Ritualist Dance (ok not big deal, Neo Di I know)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
WoTLK = Warhammer
Lake WinterGrasp = Keep Battles
Achievements = Tomb of Knowlege
More PvP focused Game play = Warhammer's main focus
Tank classes with stronger PvP roles = Warhammer's tanking system hype
Paladins with Stronger PvP Damage role, and PvE dps roles = Warhammer's Warrior-Priest Hype
Enhcanment Shaman's 5hit instant cast talent (what ever it called) = Warhammer's Shaman mechanic (cant even deny this one)
The Siege Weapons = Warhammer's siege weapons (yes I know there were Sieges in WC3)
Newly added Auto Grouping system for Wintergrasp = Warhammer's PvP area/ PQ grouping system
New Cross Server LFG grouping system = again just another upgrade of the Warhammer grouping system.
Support Classes with more Hybrid roles = Warhammer's "no support only class"Hype thing
The First new BG in the X-pac (forgot the name) = Warhammer's Instanced combat
The isle of Conquest = Warhammer's Major City sieges
-------------------------------------------------------
CAT = AION
Flying Everywhere = Aion's Flying hype (yes I knwo you cant fly everywhere)
Even the Name of the Xpac = Check out the Site's info page, and you can see the Catalysm as the word writen all over it. (I also found that interesting)
New PvP zone = The Abbidis (what ever you spell it) the PvP system in Aion.
Return of Flying Sieges = Aion's Flying combat
The World itself being torn apart = The Aion's whole Faction vs Faction visual Role Playing concept (yes I know Mastrom has a strong part in Warcraft Lore as being a big rift in the planet)
----------------------------------------------------
Also you can see some Darkfall in Cat as well, as somebody pointed out above, as Blizzard trys to become more Sandbox like
CAT = Darkfall
Worgen = Wolf Race in Darkfall (yes I know the Worgen as a playable race was planed long before Vanilla)
Talent System revamped = Skill System
------------------------------
Again like I said. Iam not trying to rant on WoW, or even the idea of cloning. I support it. Because it is human nature to copy and try to improve on ideas. Just stop and think about it for a moment.
If TBC, WoTLK, and Cat never came out, then how would the WoW vs WAR argument would have turned out? or the WoW vs AION, or the WoW vs Whatever? Think about that for a second.
That seems a bit stretched... at least from the few ones I can compare. While seems proved that it's true WOW keeps up with new ideas from other new MMOs, they do it in their own way, for the looks of what you posted.
I agree with wow has huge staff but to be able copy idea implement them in short period is pretty hard.With that said you can't deny that wow out right takes games best features tome knowledge,battlegrounds,etc.. I am suprised WoW does have public quests yet.I don't think WoW tries to take ideas before games come out but if games comes out or is in the process being released and they like idea they don't hesitate to put it their game as quickly as possible.
Dont forget WAR implemented gaining XP from PVP. They also had a feature that allowed you to join a battleground from anywhere in the world...
WoW soon added those features. I'd play WAR but WOW has pretty much all of WARS features and more! Plus WoW's movment, combat and general game play is more fluent. WARs classes all felt the same.
To correct you sir/ma'am, GW had xp/items/reputation/unlock points to be had from PvP from the get-go.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I was gaining XP in PVP in EQ2 long before WAR came out. And I was looting gold and items from PVP. I didnt play it, but you'll probably find PVP in EQ1 was also giving level ups 10 years ago...
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
I do see a lot of OP's points.
I dislike WoW, for many reasons, but i am not a hater in any way. For a lot of people its casual style gameplay is refreshing.
They jump on the market to compete with other games really fast. I am sure there are more examples of this but i know this because i was following WAR's release.
The Tome of Knowledge idea was out there and soon after WoW announced that WoTLK would have an achievement system simular to that of the ToK. By no means is this "stealing the idea" as it was in LOTRO and all the next gen consoles, but it succesfully ruined some of WARs hype to the WoW players because they are no longer looking at a new feature in WAR, making WAR seem more like a WoW Clone.
The day war launched, Blizzard allowed trasnfers from PvE to PvP realms, attempting to make the people that liked RVR more interested in coming back to WoW after their month trial.
This is a genius technique to keeping players. Although i find it rather annoying because i want to see the MMO market expand..
Some of those points are really pulled out Tro.
Heroic concept was there since Vanilla was released(with 10man dungeons that could be done as 5man. Those who did them as 5man got bonus quests).
The massive rep grind was in vanilla as well, and it was even worse than BC.
Of course WoW copied some features in these games, but some of them were long before WoW was even released.
To correct you sir/ma'am, GW had xp/items/reputation/unlock points to be had from PvP from the get-go.
That may be so. I think its no conicidence that WOW implemented those things just after WARS release. I dont think Blizzard worried to much about EQ1/2 (No compition) or even Guild Wars. I believe tho that WAR did hurt WOW somewhat and therefore WOW decided to take a few features from WAR knowing they'd implement them alot better. Also getting back any subs they may have lost. I hope I've got my point across. Maybe I didnt explain myslef clearer before.