To remove grinding, MMOs should use other systems than the "level-based" system that we are used to. Look at EVE, you can progress without grinding. Look at UO, you can progress without even killing ONE mob, if you don't want to.
Removing grinding IS possible, its just very hard to do in a lvl-based MMO. The first problem is that when you play a lvl-based MMO, you want to get to max lvl ASAP. There is no "take it slow, enjoy the ride" , it just doesn't work because lvl-based mmos are designed to be more fun when you reach max lvl. That is the first thing that the developer would have to fix, I think. Make the game enjoyable at ALL levels.
-Make meaningful PVP take place at ALL levels, not just lvl cap.
-Balance the PVP so that the gap is not too huge between levels. A lower lvl player should still stand a chance.
-Make fun PVE content for ALL levels (dungeons, even raids)
-Again, balance the PVE so that the gap is not too huge between levels. A low level player should have access to high level zones too. It should be hard for him, but not impossible.
In summary ... make levels a LOT less significant than what we are used to. Only THEN will it be possible to "enjoy the ride" and take it slow, without worrying about the grind. Because right now, if you want to have fun pvp, you have to get to max lvl ASAP. (sad truth). If you want to have access to the cool pve encounters, you also have to reach the lvl cap asap.
So, it can be done, but why WONT it be done? Because developers would have to actually create content to keep everyone entertained, instead of just making us kill another million of mobs. For the same paycheck.
Originally posted by Silverchild So, it can be done, but why WONT it be done? Because developers would have to actually create content to keep everyone entertained, instead of just making us kill another million of mobs. For the same paycheck.
No. Grind is what players want, not the devs. Games are shaped by players otherwise development companies would go broke.
Imagine a game where only capable, smart and skilled player could advance in the game. Not many people would play such game.
Grind is the mechanics that creates equal chances for all players and make you to advance regardless of your skills.
make it risky (like EVE Online), enable player created content (outsourcing contracts, crafting orders, research to other players, base/city building, open world PvP/RvR with actual goals, quests with dynamic progression and ability to change the world youre playing in (not instanced though), quests with mixed PvE/PvP content (there were a few in Guild Wars i think), exploration quests where after building a seafaring ship/spacecraft with your guild/group youre able to travel and discover new lands/planets and establish bases/cities - that'd be my ideal MMO with minimal grind but nonetheless, grind is integral even to EVE (rat hunts) and other sandbox MMOs, balancing the game to minimalize the feel of the gind is the way to go now i think
I am really sick of hearing about grinding. Everything you do to progress in a game or real life could be considered a grind. First you need to establish what you are considering a grind.
A grind is a trivially easy process repeated till your eyes bleed.
I disagree, a grind I think is anything being repeated, taking longer or used more than you want it to be, does not have to be easy it could be very hard, as long as you don't like it.
You like it or not, it's a grind. Even if it's the best thing in the world it's still a grind.
I disagree. A grind is a dull, or monotonous, or laborious repetitive task. Repeating something doesn't make it a grind. Your mental state makes it a grind.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
there is no possible way to end a grind. Even if the game started you off max level and stats you would still grind. Through one form or another you will grind. so i dont understand your question.
I disagree. A grind is a dull, or monotonous, or laborious repetitive task. Repeating something doesn't make it a grind. Your mental state makes it a grind.
Venge Sunsoar
A grind is a repetitive task. Then there is the dull, monotonous and/or laborious grind as well.
A grind is always a grind, even if someone enjoys doing it while someone else finds it tedious.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
The answer is really simple. ELLIMINATE LEVELS! Eve online does it. No grinding. If dev's broke away from levels there would be no grind to level. There may be grind to make money, but that seems to be a bit more acceptable than grinding to better your characters skill. If WoW or Aion had no levels but merely skill(or skill levels?) It would be a completely different ball park. No more getting ganked by lvl 50's or 80's for WoW. Take away levels = way less grind.
In EVE you grind for ISK by mining so you can buy ships.
The grind has been moved, not eliminated.
Your ships are your levels, and instead of "grinding" on Mobs that drop gold and loot, you grind on mines that drop materials.
Mining is just one way of making isk, there are numerous, from mission running, to ratting, to manufacturing, to research etc. you can play the game for years and never mine a single asteriod if you dont want to (and most dont!) then there is piracy, moon mining - not the same as asteriod mining as you need a pos in 0.0 to moon mine, but pos' are not just for moon mining, the list of ways to earn isk in Eve really is limited to your own imagination, and is as boring, or not.. as you make it.
A grind is something that someone finds to be repetative and boring, though the have to do it to reach a goal.
Now I'll use combat as my example to remove grind,
Generically we either quest, kill random mobs, and run dungeons to level. They 3 methods often intertwine but we will refer to them separately for this example. SInce these are the only methods we have to level and most games focus on questing, we feel that leveling becomes a grind of repetative questing. However, if there were 6 ways of leveling that were all viable ways of executing the final goal of max level, then the grind would be gone. WoW is moving towards this actually. Since you can now get exp from world PvP and battleground PvP, there is 2 more ways of leveling. Thus, you will ultimately spend less time killing X wolfs for pelts. With a multitude of options players will never be over exposed to certain mechanics of a game and therefore never grind.
The problem with this theory lies is that fact that developing so many ways of leveling/crafting/raiding etc takes a lot of resources that most developers dont have. With the extreme success of WoW , Blizzard has nearly unlimited amounts of money to re-invest into WoW and give it these things. That is why WoW has continued to be #1, no one can put out the kind of polished and amount of quality content they constantly do on a regular basis.
For the record so that I do not get flammed by fan bois, I DO NOT PLAY WOW but it is a great example.
I disagree. A grind is a dull, or monotonous, or laborious repetitive task. Repeating something doesn't make it a grind. Your mental state makes it a grind.
Venge Sunsoar
A grind is a repetitive task. Then there is the dull, monotonous and/or laborious grind as well.
A grind is always a grind, even if someone enjoys doing it while someone else finds it tedious.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't believe a grind is a repetitive task. I believe in order to be a grind it has to something the person doesn't like.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Grinding is the equivalent to work in a game. Your going to have to strive to achieve a goal regardless. Always going to be some kinda form of work(grind) in games.
When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?
As I have stated, if grind cannot be eliminated then how do developers mask the grind and make it fun? What I am asking of this creative community is to put their ideas up and prove to all that maybe, just maybe, there are some really good ideas to be had out here. Just from what I've read of the responses, I KNOW, I can SEE that there ARE a lot of great ideas here.
Comments
To remove grinding, MMOs should use other systems than the "level-based" system that we are used to. Look at EVE, you can progress without grinding. Look at UO, you can progress without even killing ONE mob, if you don't want to.
Removing grinding IS possible, its just very hard to do in a lvl-based MMO. The first problem is that when you play a lvl-based MMO, you want to get to max lvl ASAP. There is no "take it slow, enjoy the ride" , it just doesn't work because lvl-based mmos are designed to be more fun when you reach max lvl. That is the first thing that the developer would have to fix, I think. Make the game enjoyable at ALL levels.
-Make meaningful PVP take place at ALL levels, not just lvl cap.
-Balance the PVP so that the gap is not too huge between levels. A lower lvl player should still stand a chance.
-Make fun PVE content for ALL levels (dungeons, even raids)
-Again, balance the PVE so that the gap is not too huge between levels. A low level player should have access to high level zones too. It should be hard for him, but not impossible.
In summary ... make levels a LOT less significant than what we are used to. Only THEN will it be possible to "enjoy the ride" and take it slow, without worrying about the grind. Because right now, if you want to have fun pvp, you have to get to max lvl ASAP. (sad truth). If you want to have access to the cool pve encounters, you also have to reach the lvl cap asap.
So, it can be done, but why WONT it be done? Because developers would have to actually create content to keep everyone entertained, instead of just making us kill another million of mobs. For the same paycheck.
Imagine a game where only capable, smart and skilled player could advance in the game. Not many people would play such game.
Grind is the mechanics that creates equal chances for all players and make you to advance regardless of your skills.
Where is the game without some type of grind?
make it risky (like EVE Online), enable player created content (outsourcing contracts, crafting orders, research to other players, base/city building, open world PvP/RvR with actual goals, quests with dynamic progression and ability to change the world youre playing in (not instanced though), quests with mixed PvE/PvP content (there were a few in Guild Wars i think), exploration quests where after building a seafaring ship/spacecraft with your guild/group youre able to travel and discover new lands/planets and establish bases/cities - that'd be my ideal MMO with minimal grind but nonetheless, grind is integral even to EVE (rat hunts) and other sandbox MMOs, balancing the game to minimalize the feel of the gind is the way to go now i think
A grind is a trivially easy process repeated till your eyes bleed.
I disagree, a grind I think is anything being repeated, taking longer or used more than you want it to be, does not have to be easy it could be very hard, as long as you don't like it.
You like it or not, it's a grind. Even if it's the best thing in the world it's still a grind.
I disagree. A grind is a dull, or monotonous, or laborious repetitive task. Repeating something doesn't make it a grind. Your mental state makes it a grind.
Venge Sunsoar
there is no possible way to end a grind. Even if the game started you off max level and stats you would still grind. Through one form or another you will grind. so i dont understand your question.
A grind is a repetitive task. Then there is the dull, monotonous and/or laborious grind as well.
A grind is always a grind, even if someone enjoys doing it while someone else finds it tedious.
In EVE you grind for ISK by mining so you can buy ships.
The grind has been moved, not eliminated.
Your ships are your levels, and instead of "grinding" on Mobs that drop gold and loot, you grind on mines that drop materials.
Mining is just one way of making isk, there are numerous, from mission running, to ratting, to manufacturing, to research etc. you can play the game for years and never mine a single asteriod if you dont want to (and most dont!) then there is piracy, moon mining - not the same as asteriod mining as you need a pos in 0.0 to moon mine, but pos' are not just for moon mining, the list of ways to earn isk in Eve really is limited to your own imagination, and is as boring, or not.. as you make it.
A grind is something that someone finds to be repetative and boring, though the have to do it to reach a goal.
Now I'll use combat as my example to remove grind,
Generically we either quest, kill random mobs, and run dungeons to level. They 3 methods often intertwine but we will refer to them separately for this example. SInce these are the only methods we have to level and most games focus on questing, we feel that leveling becomes a grind of repetative questing. However, if there were 6 ways of leveling that were all viable ways of executing the final goal of max level, then the grind would be gone. WoW is moving towards this actually. Since you can now get exp from world PvP and battleground PvP, there is 2 more ways of leveling. Thus, you will ultimately spend less time killing X wolfs for pelts. With a multitude of options players will never be over exposed to certain mechanics of a game and therefore never grind.
The problem with this theory lies is that fact that developing so many ways of leveling/crafting/raiding etc takes a lot of resources that most developers dont have. With the extreme success of WoW , Blizzard has nearly unlimited amounts of money to re-invest into WoW and give it these things. That is why WoW has continued to be #1, no one can put out the kind of polished and amount of quality content they constantly do on a regular basis.
For the record so that I do not get flammed by fan bois, I DO NOT PLAY WOW but it is a great example.
A grind is a repetitive task. Then there is the dull, monotonous and/or laborious grind as well.
A grind is always a grind, even if someone enjoys doing it while someone else finds it tedious.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't believe a grind is a repetitive task. I believe in order to be a grind it has to something the person doesn't like.
Venge Sunsoar
Grinding is the equivalent to work in a game. Your going to have to strive to achieve a goal regardless. Always going to be some kinda form of work(grind) in games.
When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?
As I have stated, if grind cannot be eliminated then how do developers mask the grind and make it fun? What I am asking of this creative community is to put their ideas up and prove to all that maybe, just maybe, there are some really good ideas to be had out here. Just from what I've read of the responses, I KNOW, I can SEE that there ARE a lot of great ideas here.
For a developer to end grinding would mean for them to not create a subscription based model. That correct?