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why such an obsession with classes?
Scottc
Member Posts: 680
I notice in pretty much any post where someone posts an idea for their game, they always have to list classes. But why? It's an inferior outdated system that locks the player into a certain playstyle. I know a few people are going to rush in here and say "Balance!", but imo that's bullshit, what matters most is the player's ability to have fun and play the way they want to play, and I think classes get in the way of that.
I wouldn't say entirely skill-based like Darkfall though is an optimal system either, because everyone can do everything and that's no good either. Really I think the best system is a design your own class where you get a certain amount of points to pick various skills from a list, and a limited amount of points to choose your starting dexterity and stuff.
So I'm wondering, is there any reason that most of you advocate classes over a "build your own class" system? Have you guys ever tried an alternate system?
Comments
A game has to have character.
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Classes also help people play and live out their favorite archetypes. I can't count the number of times that I thought a character was cool like Legolas from Lord of the Rings and wanted to play an Archer type class or watching heads get decapitated in Gladiator and wanted me to make a badass Warrior/Brawler type class.
Also, on the developer side, it helps them link things together into a form of a system. It does help with balance tremendously. Compare balancing out a class-based game to balancing out a skill-based game where anyone can pick any variety of skill. I would say the latter would be a much greater challenge for anyone.
Class provides the boundaries for people to act and play within. It gives people unique traitors apart from at least the other classes. Sure, there's still work to be done in the genre to get more differentiation within classes, but games have been working on that portion for the last year and there's plenty of experimentation to do within the industry. It's still so new and its so broad which is more to say than most other genres.
I finish with saying that classes are a needed implementation depending on how the system for the whole game is designed as a whole and it can be seen as a good thing especially in terms of the archetypes mentioned in the beginning.
I wouldn't say that the class system is out-dated or obsolete, it's just different from a skill-based system. Aside from what the above poster mentioned, a class system also makes it much easier to confidently form parties with other players. If you're looking for someone to heal, you can look for clerics or druids, instead of having to ask someone to list their skills, or trust them when they say they're a "healer" that they haven't packed up on nukes and then brought one heal skill that just doesn't quite do the job. And class systems can offer a great deal of customization. Look at DAoC or Guild Wars. Both have their merits. I enjoyed EVE and Oblivion's skill-based systems for a time too (although something I noticed in EVE is that when you're going to PvP you end up being forced into cookie cutter builds that are so well known they get.. well... class names. And the game becomes class-based anyway.)
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I think the people who want to play their favorite archetypes are a minority and/or new to gaming in general. With a create your own class system those players can still play their favorite archetypes anyway.
Also, you say that classes gives unique traits, but that's insignificant because everyone is still corralled into a certain role with very few choices on how to play compared to a create your own class system.
I haven't played Eve Online, but the one I have played that has a build your own class system was Asheron's Call, and nobody is forced into cookie cutter builds there, unless you consider that because a bunch of people share a single skill they're all the same class. Even if people do choose the same class, new players are still offered the freedom to play how they want to play, and they still have the capability to have major variations in gameplay.
And you know that by?
Classes are more popular/wanted then classless games (check how sandbox games and fantasy mmorpgs are in popularity)
And you know that by?
Classes are more popular/wanted then classless games (check how sandbox games and fantasy mmorpgs are in popularity)
Well, the majority(read all) sandbox games are designed by indie companies and arent on the same quality level that the multi million dollar productions that companies behind fantasy MMORPG's make.
And you know that by?
Classes are more popular/wanted then classless games (check how sandbox games and fantasy mmorpgs are in popularity)
What does sandbox have to do with classes/skill based? You could easily have a "themepark" (i hate you for making me use this word) game with a freeform character creation system. If you look at the rest, you'll notice that they all focus on PvP content with looting. This tends to scare off prospective players. So I wouldn't say that classes are more popular and wanted than classless games, because you don't have a modern example of one that focuses on PvE content.
Also, I don't know that, it's an assumption I make based on a majority of the people I speak to who play MMORPGs. The ones who love class based games never actually played one with freeform character development.
So by your words since they are indie and not blizzard (to name a popular company) then they have an excuse on making a non popular game and can't do something good?
Mount & Blade anyone? Made by indie and is very popular
Fallen Earth made by indie and is still getting profit I don't see it failing anytime soon till they don't screw everything.
Most people would rather just pick a class, level it, have no say in the spells/abilities you gain as you level and even less at level cap through limited class trees.
I would rather think up my own class that's tailored to my play style than roll a class just to find out that it really isnt me and have to start over.
I like the flexibility in skill systems.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Amen brother.
I always wondered why the game divides everything into classes, here are the reasons I am guessing:
Now, I noticed most MMORPG combat systems are pretty boring to my point of view, most of these have a stand still and spam something from your 27 skill library, the classes make this seem like fun to my opinion when they are actually just annoying you (Every time I stopped playing an MMO and went back to real life, real life suddenly seemed so exciting).
My idea of fun combat is jumping around all the place as if you were some kind of mysterious ninja, assassin or leaping in front of your foe with a blow from your giant (anime styled
) sword or raising your ridiculously huge shield against such an attack, dodging not only swords but actual arrows matrix style.
My opinion on Classes
I used to play Allods CB(before I found out I was just going through my usual brainwashed routine when I suddenly couldn't get to the next level), when I was playing there, it REALLY DEPRESSED ME to hear, I need a healer, made me think, one guy just takes damage while another one heals and the more damage dealers you have the faster the boss goes down.
Boss fights in current MMOs are not what I had in mind, you could last 20 hours fighting a boss and still not die because you have a healer that keeps healing you, the boss doesn't make any climax special attacks that freak you out saying like INCOMING and dodging some sort of giant hammer or tree he pulls out. Boss fights aren't fun nor exciting.
What I previously thought
I Though, well I guess they can;t make such a dream like combat with an MMO, its probably just not possible, a game I recently got to test (Not saying which), had a combat system pretty close to my dream combat system, so now I realize that Devs are just doing this for the money and not for an actually fun game.
I am pretty sure everyone here has dreamed up their own MMO and I have too, I am not going to tell you about it right now, but I will tell you this, in my dream MMO which is now possible, I don't plan to have classes, I don't plan to have the same wow style combat.
Orientations
In my dream MMO I plan to have an orientation system, all characters start pretty crappy with no class (How embarrassing :S), but as you develop any skills (Sword Blow, Sword Shock, Aim, Firing Speed) you advance towards one of 3 orientations warrior, ranger or disciple (The disciple being the mage type guy, whatever) and can eventually mold out your own character as one of these 3 things or a mixture of 2 of them.
I agree classes are outdated and I one day hope to make my own attempt to a failure of an MMO with my vision.
Generally I prefer classes to skills, though the way Guildwars and CoX did it is good too.
Reason being I can play a much better deveoped character using a class system. Meaning if I wanted to play a deathknight like character I could combine skills, like armor, sword, black magic etc., and get a character like a deathknight, however it isn't of the same quality, a WoW deathknight has runes and runic power as well as spells and abilities specialy made for the death knight. The character feels very unique, from other classes anyway all deathknights are pretty much the same.
So the developers have a clear advantage over me which is they can create a class from the ground up and custom tailor it to be a certain way whereas I have to work with the skills in the game.
I consider skills to be better when you want to make a character the developers hadn't put in the game, otherwise if you are wanting to play a warrior type you would be better off with the high quality developer made class rather than combining generic skills to make a warrior. But even then the unique character you make would still suffer from a cut in quality. And really most the characters people make suffer from being absolutely stupid without any thought put into the character other than power.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Like classless system would not have any "classes". Pfff... You're just kidding yourself.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I agree with this. Classes when made by developers are better but I think the people that enjoy making their own are just interested in Making them.
A big part of the game is hand crafting a class on your own (actually this is most if not all of the game in a sandbox).
I would rather make a Paladin on my own even if its just a basic PLated character with a few buffs, heals and Anti undead spells (tunr undead, smite).
Its fun to make them.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
I can practically use your own argument against you. What are classes exactly? Just a set of predefined skills that define what the character itself can undertake (and also not partake in). So in regards to being coralled into a certain role, that's also seen in skill based games. In order to fulfill any role in a skill-based game at a basic level, you still need the basic skill for anything in regards to the game despite the existence (or lack thereof) of cookie cutter builds.
I know you tried mentioning AC and how you can play however you like in regards to cookie cutter builds. He does have a point aside from what you pointed out in that in order to fulfill any role in any skill based game, you're going to have to acquire that base skill. You want to dish out damage and shoot fireballs. You'll need the skill that shoots fireballs. You want to heal, well you're going to need the basic healing skill aside from min/maxing and trying to be the most efficient. There are some base skills required that pigeon hole you into a role anyway or else you simply would not be able to even perform the given role.
As in regards to your argument against archetypes, first of all, those are based on thoughts and opinions and does not neglect the fact that these classes are fulfilling a stereotype (which was my main point, read between the lines please). I'm not speaking in terms of roleplaying either, there are some things from peoples experiences that might draw certain people to certain classes/archetypes and you can try to deny it all you like. Don't tell me you like playing a mage purely based off the fact you wanted to play a DPS class or you wanted a warrior because you wanted to be able to take damage, there are more inherent things involved then purely the gameplay system when people decide on what game they play and what their avatar is representing in the game.
Just a few things to chew on aside from the fact that classes/archetypes/stereotypes just makes things easier for the players as well as developers (seen as good or bad depending on what type of person you are and which side of the game you fall under).
I like the way FFXI does it. It gives you a ton of jobs to choose from, all available on any day(provided you unlocked them, which I also love doing) all on one character plus given the ability to mix and match to make a hybrid type character utilizing the subjob system.
Having a full skill based character has never appealed to me. I've never felt comfortable enough using custom characters games like Oblivion or Neverwinter Nights option. Good thing those games also gave me more streamlined class choices.
There's a difference between predefined templates and ones that can be constructed by the player.
Gives people a sense of freedom.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
My problem with skill-based games is everyone ends up the same or too similar for my taste. I like having a least a sense of being _somewhat_ unique. I think Wow's talent system is a step in the right direction even though im a huge EQ fan.
There's a difference between predefined templates and ones that can be constructed by the player.
Gives people a sense of freedom.
Yes. The bad skill combinations are the "freedom".
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
That's a fault of the game design. WoW's talent system isn't a step in the right direction either, because it is the epitome of cookie cutter.
UO had "cookie cutter" specs, but there was still a ton of room for customization.
Classes are popular because the people who created this genre played D&D and based their game upon it's foundation. Classes are easier to balance than a list of individual skills which may be combined in ways unforeseen by even the games designers.
I much prefer skill based progression. It gives me a much greater sense of individuality and adds danger to PvP encounters because you truly do not know what you're up against in any given encounter (unless you have a skill that lets you evaluate your opponent!). I enjoy creating my own classes and continuing to make choices throughout the game, rather than a single big choice at character creation which you are thereby stuck with for the duration of your playing experience.
I just wish that class based games took even more inspiration from D&D and added in skills in tandem with classes. There are a TON of skills in D&D and they add so much flavour to each character that it's a shame to see MMOs do nothing but focus on combat game after game.
There's a difference between predefined templates and ones that can be constructed by the player.
Gives people a sense of freedom.
Yes. The bad skill combinations are the "freedom".
OP skill templates change constantly if you choose to follow them your just a mindless toad.
I see these people in Eve all the time, they rage quite when they finally get nerfed. Free thinking and not following cookiecutters that both sub genres are plagued with is the way to go imo.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
A skill based system is much more elegant than classes. A character feels much more unique if its not a exact copy of every other one of his class and level.
The good thing about classes is that they make the players to accept weaknesses that their characters have. A Fighter can’t heal, a mage can’t wear plate armour, and so on.
If the skill system allows it everyone will end up being a battlemage-healer. A system where everyone can learn everything like darkfall has does not work.
So a skill system needs a quite complicated set of caps and restrictions in that a player must accept a weakness if he chooses a power.
There's a difference between predefined templates and ones that can be constructed by the player.
Gives people a sense of freedom.
Yes. The bad skill combinations are the "freedom".
OP skill templates change constantly if you choose to follow them your just a mindless toad.
I see these people in Eve all the time, they rage quite when they finally get nerfed. Free thinking and not following cookiecutters that both sub genres are plagued with is the way to go imo.
Oh yes. Its freedom when a guy can make a armor tanking Raven with LAZOR BEAMZ or a freaking Thanatos with SHIELD TRANSFER ARRAYS. Yeah... I feel free... wooptie doo... jeez...
FYI there are ways to make class-based games flexible. Case and point: Dungeons & Dragons.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
There's a difference between predefined templates and ones that can be constructed by the player.
Gives people a sense of freedom.
...the illusion of freedom...