Well, to play devil's advocate, why not? Or why not just for the sense of story?
Because that's not a game. A game is competitive. As someone else said - you might as well be watching TV or reading a book.
But the thing is you are caught up on the semantics of a word.
Ok, so it's not a game. For some who can think a bit more outside the box, it doesn't have to be a game. It can be a toy. Or just something else that they like.
Because it is very clear that other players are finding other experienes in these worlds that fall outside of what a game is.
To then take it to the next level, some people are very interested in the social aspects. Heck, if you listen to the old swg players they say that it was the unique social aspects that made swg the "game" that it was.
Well, being social does not mean that one has to be in competition. There "can" be competition but it seems that being social is a way for players to enjoy the world in a way that is very personal.
So though you might have to have competition in your mmo's my sense is that others have found ways to enjoy these worlds that have greater resonance with their own unique sensibilities.
Well said. With that argument out of the way, I will add my thoughts on the thread title.
Heroes come in all forms. Is the person serving soup to the homeless any less of a hero then the Iraq War Veteran?
Is the elementary school teacher who inspires their pupils to excel in life any less of a hero then the police officer that dies in the line of duty protecting innocents?
Is the person that gives honest advice to someone who asks for help over a general chat channel any less a hero then the priest that saves you from experience loss?
Hmmm...
Nothing excites jaded Grandmasters more than a theoretical novelty
Originally posted by Nightbringe1 I spent over a decade as a PnP DM. I also ran Rolemaster, Shadowrun, Champions, GURPS,
Vampire / Werewolf / Mage (both tabletop and LARP), organize Warhammer campaigns, and ran countless others. Trust me, a game where the players face no danger gets stale very rapidly. If I could find a group of players in the area I live now, I would start up a Dungeon Hack campaign.
You have internet access. Local players are not needed. I would like to do some online RPGing, myself.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I don't know, it just seems most games lack any sort of feeling of danger these days.
I 100% agree.
topmost superhit tip to game developers,hire some paper & pen Dungeon Masters and we might have some kind of future here.
I spent over a decade as a PnP DM. I also ran Rolemaster, Shadowrun, Champions, GURPS,
Vampire / Werewolf / Mage (both tabletop and LARP), organize Warhammer campaigns, and ran countless others.
Trust me, a game where the players face no danger gets stale very rapidly.
If I could find a group of players in the area I live now, I would start up a Dungeon Hack campaign.
But there is danger and there is "danger". This is why this discussion doesn't work very well when applied to different types of people.
I also ran a Dungeons and Dragons campaign. And though mine was very story driven, my players would indeed face danger. The thing is, my players weren't really into the whole permadeath thing and they really enjoyed creating and molding their characters.
So though I would put them in dangerous situations and even leave it up in the air as to whether or not they "could" die, in the end, there was a happy ending. They enjoyed the journey and everyone had a good time. Or, if there was a death, then there could be a quest to bring that person back. Or, if there was a penalty there was a quest that they could erase that penalty. In the end, it was about the storytelling.
Like when you see a movie and the heroine is tied to a moving table saw and the hero (or reverse these if you prefer) is fighting to get to her and you know that he is going to be successful but there is still that nagging doubt that "what if he doesn't make it".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Lexiscat Well said. With that argument out of the way, I will add my thoughts on the thread title. Heroes come in all forms. Is the person serving soup to the homeless any less of a hero then the Iraq War Veteran? Firstly - unless you are talking about an Iraqi soldier - he's a war criminal. The invasion of Iraq was illegal.
Secondly - heroism requires risk. What risk is involved in serving soup? Is the elementary school teacher who inspires their pupils to excel in life any less of a hero then the police officer that dies in the line of duty protecting innocents? Yes, absolutely. "Hero" does not just mean "good person". Is the person that gives honest advice to someone who asks for help over a general chat channel any less a hero then the priest that saves you from experience loss? Hmmm...
Neither of those is a hero, unless the priest took some risk to help you.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by Lexiscat Well said. With that argument out of the way, I will add my thoughts on the thread title. Heroes come in all forms. Is the person serving soup to the homeless any less of a hero then the Iraq War Veteran? Firstly - unless you are talking about an Iraqi soldier - he's a war criminal. The invasion of Iraq was illegal.
Secondly - heroism requires risk. What risk is involved in serving soup? Is the elementary school teacher who inspires their pupils to excel in life any less of a hero then the police officer that dies in the line of duty protecting innocents? Yes, absolutely. "Hero" does not just mean "good person". Is the person that gives honest advice to someone who asks for help over a general chat channel any less a hero then the priest that saves you from experience loss? Hmmm...
Neither of those is a hero, unless the priest took some risk to help you.
My turn to try this thing:
1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage
2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement
3 plural usually heros : submarine 2
4 : an object of extreme admiration and devotion : idol
they sound like heroes to me. the soup lady, not the soldier =P
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Originally posted by Sovrath But the thing is you are caught up on the semantics of a word. Ok, so it's not a game. For some who can think a bit more outside the box, it doesn't have to be a game. It can be a toy. Or just something else that they like.
Absolutely, but don't call it a game - which is what the thread is about.
Painting is a fun activity for many people, but unless it is some form of competition - say for a prize for best painting - it isn't a game.
But that's the thing, in the end it almost doesn't mattter. Because players have found their own reasons to play.
Now, where I draw the line is when players join a game and expect that it suit their own tastes. That bothers me quite a bit.
But if we aren't going to call these games then I can easily see devs just naming them multi-player online role playing experiences" mmorpe's
There, problems solved.
No matter what you call these things they still are going to attract players of all sorts. And game companies and devs want players. We all know that many mmo players are just so particular that they will drop a sub at a moment's notice.
"The update took too long"
"My quest requires me to read"
"They changed my skill, and though I have others, I am not happy so I've ended my sub..."
"The textures are a bit off here and there and that's a no go for me"
etc.
So with a sea of these people it makes sense for devs to find a group and make games for them. And it seems that it is the casual players who do this.
By the way, dominos is a game. However, there are people who use dominos to create interesting artistic creations that have the sole purpose of being knocked down in a sequence.
There are also many card games but people have found other uses for the "pieces"
people have found reasons to play mmorpgs where comeptition might not really matter to them in the scheme of things.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I also ran a Dungeons and Dragons campaign. And though mine was very story driven, my players would indeed face danger. The thing is, my players weren't really into the whole permadeath thing and they really enjoyed creating and molding their characters. So though I would put them in dangerous situations and even leave it up in the air as to whether or not they "could" die, in the end, there was a happy ending. They enjoyed the journey and everyone had a good time. Or, if there was a death, then there could be a quest to bring that person back. Or, if there was a penalty there was a quest that they could erase that penalty. In the end, it was about the storytelling. Like when you see a movie and the heroine is tied to a moving table saw and the hero (or reverse these if you prefer) is fighting to get to her and you know that he is going to be successful but there is still that nagging doubt that "what if he doesn't make it".
More or less the same thing here.
Characters only really died as acts of sacrifice of stupidity. The rest of the time things would always seem to work out. That is not to say the charactes never had any detrimental consequences though.
For example, once, when fighting a vampire, the entire party wound up losing a few levels. Lacking the magic to counter this loss they regained their lost levels the old fashioned way, by continuing to have fun playing the game. Since the game was about the journey and not the story the characters were in no rush to reach max level anyways.
/shrug: We also tended to retire characters once they got to powerful. Sometimes those retired characters would show up as NPC's in future campaigns.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
More or less the same thing here. Characters only really died as acts of sacrifice of stupidity. The rest of the time things would always seem to work out. That is not to say the charactes never had any detrimental consequences though. For example, once, when fighting a vampire, the entire party wound up losing a few levels. Lacking the magic to counter this loss they regained their lost levels the old fashioned way, by continuing to have fun playing the game. Since the game was about the journey and not the story the characters were in no rush to reach max level anyways. Sounds good to me - especially if the game has alternate builds, so you could change your character around a bit when re-levelling.
/shrug: We also tended to retire characters once they got to powerful. Sometimes those retired characters would show up as NPC's in future campaigns.
Retirement (at least for normal content) is something I would like to see in MMOs. Let there some special 'heroic' events they can participate in occasionally, but they would be inactive most of the time until the level cap was increased.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
OH! You mean a strict "waste my time unless I have 8 hours a day", death penalty. I understand. Games are for fun and entertainment. Try not to forget this.
No risk means no accomplishment. You might as well be playing solitaire.
If I want accomplishment I'll save more in my 401k.. or fix that leaky faucet my wifes been on my butt about.. In a GAME I want fun.
Originally posted by Talgen If I want accomplishment I'll save more in my 401k.. or fix that leaky faucet my wifes been on my butt about.. In a GAME I want fun. Okay. What is fun in a game for you?
They're MMORPG's not MMOLS's (life simulators)
They are hero simulators.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by Talgen If I want accomplishment I'll save more in my 401k.. or fix that leaky faucet my wifes been on my butt about.. In a GAME I want fun. Okay. What is fun in a game for you?
They're MMORPG's not MMOLS's (life simulators)
They are hero simulators.
They are role playing games. you play the role of a character. hero or not, thats up to whoever is playing it.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Originally posted by Talgen If I want accomplishment I'll save more in my 401k.. or fix that leaky faucet my wifes been on my butt about.. In a GAME I want fun. Okay. What is fun in a game for you?
They're MMORPG's not MMOLS's (life simulators)
They are hero simulators.
A heroic simulator fits the definition of "game". If you want a different meaning you have to use a different word or clarify like "competitive gaming". You can have your own option about what is fun but trying to add meaning to words because they don't support your argument is simple nonsense.
Originally posted by Talgen If I want accomplishment I'll save more in my 401k.. or fix that leaky faucet my wifes been on my butt about.. In a GAME I want fun. Okay. What is fun in a game for you?
They're MMORPG's not MMOLS's (life simulators)
They are hero simulators.
They are role playing games. you play the role of a character. hero or not, thats up to whoever is playing it.
And I think that says a lot.
during closed beta of LOTRO, someone commented on how pve ai was not exciting, didn't make the blood go pumping and that was a reason to incorporate full pvp. Because what type of challenge is there playing against a dumb AI opponent?
I offered the suggestion that it wasn't about the challenge at all and the fight itself wasn't really a goal for many players. That instead it was one point along a greater story.
So instead of looking at it like:
"I went along the path and FINALLY found some combat"
it was more like:
"Sir robin was on his way to Bree when a goblin jumped out in front of him. There was a brief scuffle but the goblin was no match for Sir Robin. He paused to wonder why such a creature would find itself so far from its usual haunts but moved his thougths to the task at hand as it seemed that storm clouds started darkening his path.... Not a good day to leave his cloak at home but nevertheless he had to make it to Bree before the storm hit as he had a rendevous at the Prancing Pony that couldn't be missed"
This seemed to agree with many posters (I think I used different examples though) as the combat was only part of their journey and it didn't matter if the AI gave them a challenge or not.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Sovrath And I think that says a lot. during closed beta of LOTRO, someone commented on how pve ai was not exciting, didn't make the blood go pumping and that was a reason to incorporate full pvp. Because what type of challenge is there playing against a dumb AI opponent? I offered the suggestion that it wasn't about the challenge at all and the fight itself wasn't really a goal for many players. That instead it was one point along a greater story.
You shouldn't sacrifice 'game' for 'story', when you can get 'story' from other sources - movies, books, TV.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by Sovrath And I think that says a lot. during closed beta of LOTRO, someone commented on how pve ai was not exciting, didn't make the blood go pumping and that was a reason to incorporate full pvp. Because what type of challenge is there playing against a dumb AI opponent? I offered the suggestion that it wasn't about the challenge at all and the fight itself wasn't really a goal for many players. That instead it was one point along a greater story.
You shouldn't sacrifice 'game' for 'story', when you can get 'story' from other sources - movies, books, TV.
Opinion.
There is no reason to assume that it is considered a sacrifce to some. Conversely one could say that one should never incorporate improv in their stories because one sacrifices good story telling. But we know that there is quite a lot of work that goes into doing just that.
The thing is MMO D., you are very focused on the idea that mmo's have to be a game and that these games must incorporate competition in a variety of ways.
And others (myself included) are saying that players are finding other sources of entertaiment that go beyond competition and more into interactive story telling. Because of this devs are taking notice and minimizing certain aspects and expanding others.
In the end what is happening here is you are looking at one face of a quarter (1/4th of an american dollar in case you don't know or hail from elswhere... didn't check so apologies) and others are looking at the other face.
You are saying "NO! It's heads! Why can't you see that!" And they are saying "No! It's Tails... why can't you understand that!"
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Thank you for making me seem mainstream and reasonable to other posters.
Seriously, Aero, that was excessive. You know, if you're crying or seeing red at the end of writing a post, you should back away from the discussion for a while.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Mostly, I'm simply tired of seeing the games that come out these days. Either they're the same thing, release after release, or they are unique but can hardly struggle to survive.
That, and I was watching some "Penn & Teller's Bullshit", so I have a little urge to relay "passionate" remarks, for the time being.
If a game environment makes someone that angry, and in that desperate need of a hug they should seriously consider getting professional help.. please no more youtube videos of upset player smacking around an innocent monitor or keyboard..
OH! You mean a strict "waste my time unless I have 8 hours a day", death penalty. I understand. Games are for fun and entertainment. Try not to forget this.
No risk means no accomplishment. You might as well be playing solitaire.
Sad that you look to a game for a sense of accomplishment.
My response:
Sad that people take building and painting miniatures for a sense of accomplishment. Sad that people take reading fluff novels with zero literary value for a sense of accomplishment. Sad that people take raising utterly useless children for a sense of accomplishment. Sad that people who are 'good' at an FPS (we'll say MW2 now since apparantly everyone is plaything that) for a sense of accomplishment. Sad that morons who talk about politics are treated with respect.
Shall I go on?
The ONLY reason why video games are looked down on whenever anybody talks about accomplishment is because there is no actual object you can touch or look at. There are, or at least used to be, video games that took tremendous amounts of dexterity, hand eye coordination and mental reflexes in order to complete things. Ninja Gaiden Black on the hardest difficulty comes to mind. It's one thing to say, 'oh it's a video game, pfft', but it's entirely another to actually have the reflexes and coordination to not get completely destroyed.
Designing an mmo around people who like to be challenged (personally I like facing a challenge every day, as many times through the day as possible...so adding another one, for me, is a plus) is a bad idea because it's a small crowd. However, designing an mmo with OPTIONS to create a more challenging atmosphere (in a dungeon, a PvP ladder, etc.) is entirely doable.
The main design problem though is gear. It's impossible to design everything to be equally challenging across gear levels. Most people enjoy mmo's because of character progression of which getting gear happens to be a large component. And the majority of people never grow out of the desire for more shinies, so it's equally impossible to remove gear from the equation. Well, to be accurate, there is only one way to remove gear from the equation.
Mostly, I'm simply tired of seeing the games that come out these days. Either they're the same thing, release after release, or they are unique but can hardly struggle to survive.
That, and I was watching some "Penn & Teller's Bullshit", so I have a little urge to relay "passionate" remarks, for the time being.
Maybe you should blame developers for making bad games, and not players for not wanting to play a game because they dont have 4 hours a night to burn. Im not saying you have no life, Im just saying that alot of people that play games dont have that kind of time. Just to appease you, if thats possible, I do have 4 hours a night to burn. I do have plenty of free time. But I still dont enjoy games with full loot free for all pvp or games that make my last 3 hours of gaming useless just because I made a mistake. So I dont play them.
And maybe if developers made unique games that were any good, I would play them. Good or not, that maybe just my opinion, but its my opinion that matters when it comes to buying a game is it not?
Games like EVE are very high in my esteem, and I dont even like EVE. But I respect it and would like to see more games like it out there.
Everything I said here is my opinion. I disagree with some people and agree with others. Thats all there is, if you cant accept that, then that is your problem. And I dont think I insulted anyone (yet). I might have disagreed with them, but I havent called anyone names.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
OH! You mean a strict "waste my time unless I have 8 hours a day", death penalty. I understand. Games are for fun and entertainment. Try not to forget this.
Mr Bloodworth nailed it on the head.
To the OP, do not generalize everyone's playstyle to be near to that of yours. It isn't quite so simple.
The people that started playing mmo's when they started getting popular don't have near the amount of free time as they once did, so the mmo developers have adapted. Just because you have the time for such non entertainment doesn't mean that many other people do.
Sad that you look to a game for a sense of accomplishment.
My response:
Sad that people take building and painting miniatures for a sense of accomplishment. Sad that people take reading fluff novels with zero literary value for a sense of accomplishment. Sad that people take raising utterly useless children for a sense of accomplishment. Sad that people who are 'good' at an FPS (we'll say MW2 now since apparantly everyone is plaything that) for a sense of accomplishment. Sad that morons who talk about politics are treated with respect.
Shall I go on?
The ONLY reason why video games are looked down on whenever anybody talks about accomplishment is because there is no actual object you can touch or look at. There are, or at least used to be, video games that took tremendous amounts of dexterity, hand eye coordination and mental reflexes in order to complete things. Ninja Gaiden Black on the hardest difficulty comes to mind. It's one thing to say, 'oh it's a video game, pfft', but it's entirely another to actually have the reflexes and coordination to not get completely destroyed.
Designing an mmo around people who like to be challenged (personally I like facing a challenge every day, as many times through the day as possible...so adding another one, for me, is a plus) is a bad idea because it's a small crowd. However, designing an mmo with OPTIONS to create a more challenging atmosphere (in a dungeon, a PvP ladder, etc.) is entirely doable.
The main design problem though is gear. It's impossible to design everything to be equally challenging across gear levels. Most people enjoy mmo's because of character progression of which getting gear happens to be a large component. And the majority of people never grow out of the desire for more shinies, so it's equally impossible to remove gear from the equation. Well, to be accurate, there is only one way to remove gear from the equation.
K', I'll bite.
When you paint a miniature, would it be more rewarding if... should you happen to make a mistake, somebody would grab it and stomp it into a lead pancake? If you don't think so, then you're probably more aligned to my point of view than the OP's.
Sure, there is accomplishment in achieving something in games. The difference is, I don't think that accomplishment is so serious that it need be tied to serious risk or a forced grind "punishment". Further, I don't think adding risk attaches ANY MORE MEANING to an accomplishment in a game.
I DO have a bit of pride over the fact that in Tekken I can beat all the Eddie Gordo players I've played against with... BRIAN FURY. I like that I just went over to my brothers house last weekend and played Guitar Hero for the first time, and beat him on about 7 out of 9 songs... though I like that I can play an ACTUAL guitar better, but back on topic...
NONE of that would have been more interesting, exciting, challenging if I had to delete my guy and start over, or stand in the corner with dunce cap on for 10 minutes if I lost.
The OP's topic, like all other similar posts before it, is pure epeen nonsense. "I'm hardcore cuz I want tough death penalties!" IMO, a true hardcore player doesn't want to be sitting back in safe harbor grinding the materials to remake the armor and XP they lost, they want to get back into the area/raid/instance that took them out, and figure out how to succeed.
Comments
But the thing is you are caught up on the semantics of a word.
Ok, so it's not a game. For some who can think a bit more outside the box, it doesn't have to be a game. It can be a toy. Or just something else that they like.
Because it is very clear that other players are finding other experienes in these worlds that fall outside of what a game is.
To then take it to the next level, some people are very interested in the social aspects. Heck, if you listen to the old swg players they say that it was the unique social aspects that made swg the "game" that it was.
Well, being social does not mean that one has to be in competition. There "can" be competition but it seems that being social is a way for players to enjoy the world in a way that is very personal.
So though you might have to have competition in your mmo's my sense is that others have found ways to enjoy these worlds that have greater resonance with their own unique sensibilities.
Well said. With that argument out of the way, I will add my thoughts on the thread title.
Heroes come in all forms. Is the person serving soup to the homeless any less of a hero then the Iraq War Veteran?
Is the elementary school teacher who inspires their pupils to excel in life any less of a hero then the police officer that dies in the line of duty protecting innocents?
Is the person that gives honest advice to someone who asks for help over a general chat channel any less a hero then the priest that saves you from experience loss?
Hmmm...
Nothing excites jaded Grandmasters more than a theoretical novelty
You have internet access. Local players are not needed. I would like to do some online RPGing, myself.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I 100% agree.
topmost superhit tip to game developers,hire some paper & pen Dungeon Masters and we might have some kind of future here.
I spent over a decade as a PnP DM. I also ran Rolemaster, Shadowrun, Champions, GURPS,
Vampire / Werewolf / Mage (both tabletop and LARP), organize Warhammer campaigns, and ran countless others.
Trust me, a game where the players face no danger gets stale very rapidly.
If I could find a group of players in the area I live now, I would start up a Dungeon Hack campaign.
But there is danger and there is "danger". This is why this discussion doesn't work very well when applied to different types of people.
I also ran a Dungeons and Dragons campaign. And though mine was very story driven, my players would indeed face danger. The thing is, my players weren't really into the whole permadeath thing and they really enjoyed creating and molding their characters.
So though I would put them in dangerous situations and even leave it up in the air as to whether or not they "could" die, in the end, there was a happy ending. They enjoyed the journey and everyone had a good time. Or, if there was a death, then there could be a quest to bring that person back. Or, if there was a penalty there was a quest that they could erase that penalty. In the end, it was about the storytelling.
Like when you see a movie and the heroine is tied to a moving table saw and the hero (or reverse these if you prefer) is fighting to get to her and you know that he is going to be successful but there is still that nagging doubt that "what if he doesn't make it".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Neither of those is a hero, unless the priest took some risk to help you.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Neither of those is a hero, unless the priest took some risk to help you.
My turn to try this thing:
1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage
2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement
3 plural usually heros : submarine 2
4 : an object of extreme admiration and devotion : idol
they sound like heroes to me. the soup lady, not the soldier =P
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Absolutely, but don't call it a game - which is what the thread is about.
Painting is a fun activity for many people, but unless it is some form of competition - say for a prize for best painting - it isn't a game.
But that's the thing, in the end it almost doesn't mattter. Because players have found their own reasons to play.
Now, where I draw the line is when players join a game and expect that it suit their own tastes. That bothers me quite a bit.
But if we aren't going to call these games then I can easily see devs just naming them multi-player online role playing experiences" mmorpe's
There, problems solved.
No matter what you call these things they still are going to attract players of all sorts. And game companies and devs want players. We all know that many mmo players are just so particular that they will drop a sub at a moment's notice.
"The update took too long"
"My quest requires me to read"
"They changed my skill, and though I have others, I am not happy so I've ended my sub..."
"The textures are a bit off here and there and that's a no go for me"
etc.
So with a sea of these people it makes sense for devs to find a group and make games for them. And it seems that it is the casual players who do this.
By the way, dominos is a game. However, there are people who use dominos to create interesting artistic creations that have the sole purpose of being knocked down in a sequence.
There are also many card games but people have found other uses for the "pieces"
people have found reasons to play mmorpgs where comeptition might not really matter to them in the scheme of things.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
More or less the same thing here.
Characters only really died as acts of sacrifice of stupidity. The rest of the time things would always seem to work out. That is not to say the charactes never had any detrimental consequences though.
For example, once, when fighting a vampire, the entire party wound up losing a few levels. Lacking the magic to counter this loss they regained their lost levels the old fashioned way, by continuing to have fun playing the game. Since the game was about the journey and not the story the characters were in no rush to reach max level anyways.
/shrug: We also tended to retire characters once they got to powerful. Sometimes those retired characters would show up as NPC's in future campaigns.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Retirement (at least for normal content) is something I would like to see in MMOs. Let there some special 'heroic' events they can participate in occasionally, but they would be inactive most of the time until the level cap was increased.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
No risk means no accomplishment. You might as well be playing solitaire.
If I want accomplishment I'll save more in my 401k.. or fix that leaky faucet my wifes been on my butt about.. In a GAME I want fun.
They're MMORPG's not MMOLS's (life simulators)
They are hero simulators.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
They are hero simulators.
They are role playing games. you play the role of a character. hero or not, thats up to whoever is playing it.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
They are hero simulators.
A heroic simulator fits the definition of "game". If you want a different meaning you have to use a different word or clarify like "competitive gaming". You can have your own option about what is fun but trying to add meaning to words because they don't support your argument is simple nonsense.
They are hero simulators.
They are role playing games. you play the role of a character. hero or not, thats up to whoever is playing it.
And I think that says a lot.
during closed beta of LOTRO, someone commented on how pve ai was not exciting, didn't make the blood go pumping and that was a reason to incorporate full pvp. Because what type of challenge is there playing against a dumb AI opponent?
I offered the suggestion that it wasn't about the challenge at all and the fight itself wasn't really a goal for many players. That instead it was one point along a greater story.
So instead of looking at it like:
"I went along the path and FINALLY found some combat"
it was more like:
"Sir robin was on his way to Bree when a goblin jumped out in front of him. There was a brief scuffle but the goblin was no match for Sir Robin. He paused to wonder why such a creature would find itself so far from its usual haunts but moved his thougths to the task at hand as it seemed that storm clouds started darkening his path.... Not a good day to leave his cloak at home but nevertheless he had to make it to Bree before the storm hit as he had a rendevous at the Prancing Pony that couldn't be missed"
This seemed to agree with many posters (I think I used different examples though) as the combat was only part of their journey and it didn't matter if the AI gave them a challenge or not.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You shouldn't sacrifice 'game' for 'story', when you can get 'story' from other sources - movies, books, TV.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
You shouldn't sacrifice 'game' for 'story', when you can get 'story' from other sources - movies, books, TV.
Opinion.
There is no reason to assume that it is considered a sacrifce to some. Conversely one could say that one should never incorporate improv in their stories because one sacrifices good story telling. But we know that there is quite a lot of work that goes into doing just that.
The thing is MMO D., you are very focused on the idea that mmo's have to be a game and that these games must incorporate competition in a variety of ways.
And others (myself included) are saying that players are finding other sources of entertaiment that go beyond competition and more into interactive story telling. Because of this devs are taking notice and minimizing certain aspects and expanding others.
In the end what is happening here is you are looking at one face of a quarter (1/4th of an american dollar in case you don't know or hail from elswhere... didn't check so apologies) and others are looking at the other face.
You are saying "NO! It's heads! Why can't you see that!" And they are saying "No! It's Tails... why can't you understand that!"
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Thank you for making me seem mainstream and reasonable to other posters.
Seriously, Aero, that was excessive. You know, if you're crying or seeing red at the end of writing a post, you should back away from the discussion for a while.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Someone needs to learn a little self control.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Nah.
Mostly, I'm simply tired of seeing the games that come out these days. Either they're the same thing, release after release, or they are unique but can hardly struggle to survive.
That, and I was watching some "Penn & Teller's Bullshit", so I have a little urge to relay "passionate" remarks, for the time being.
If a game environment makes someone that angry, and in that desperate need of a hug they should seriously consider getting professional help.. please no more youtube videos of upset player smacking around an innocent monitor or keyboard..
No risk means no accomplishment. You might as well be playing solitaire.
Sad that you look to a game for a sense of accomplishment.
My response:
Sad that people take building and painting miniatures for a sense of accomplishment. Sad that people take reading fluff novels with zero literary value for a sense of accomplishment. Sad that people take raising utterly useless children for a sense of accomplishment. Sad that people who are 'good' at an FPS (we'll say MW2 now since apparantly everyone is plaything that) for a sense of accomplishment. Sad that morons who talk about politics are treated with respect.
Shall I go on?
The ONLY reason why video games are looked down on whenever anybody talks about accomplishment is because there is no actual object you can touch or look at. There are, or at least used to be, video games that took tremendous amounts of dexterity, hand eye coordination and mental reflexes in order to complete things. Ninja Gaiden Black on the hardest difficulty comes to mind. It's one thing to say, 'oh it's a video game, pfft', but it's entirely another to actually have the reflexes and coordination to not get completely destroyed.
Designing an mmo around people who like to be challenged (personally I like facing a challenge every day, as many times through the day as possible...so adding another one, for me, is a plus) is a bad idea because it's a small crowd. However, designing an mmo with OPTIONS to create a more challenging atmosphere (in a dungeon, a PvP ladder, etc.) is entirely doable.
The main design problem though is gear. It's impossible to design everything to be equally challenging across gear levels. Most people enjoy mmo's because of character progression of which getting gear happens to be a large component. And the majority of people never grow out of the desire for more shinies, so it's equally impossible to remove gear from the equation. Well, to be accurate, there is only one way to remove gear from the equation.
Maybe you should blame developers for making bad games, and not players for not wanting to play a game because they dont have 4 hours a night to burn. Im not saying you have no life, Im just saying that alot of people that play games dont have that kind of time. Just to appease you, if thats possible, I do have 4 hours a night to burn. I do have plenty of free time. But I still dont enjoy games with full loot free for all pvp or games that make my last 3 hours of gaming useless just because I made a mistake. So I dont play them.
And maybe if developers made unique games that were any good, I would play them. Good or not, that maybe just my opinion, but its my opinion that matters when it comes to buying a game is it not?
Games like EVE are very high in my esteem, and I dont even like EVE. But I respect it and would like to see more games like it out there.
Everything I said here is my opinion. I disagree with some people and agree with others. Thats all there is, if you cant accept that, then that is your problem. And I dont think I insulted anyone (yet). I might have disagreed with them, but I havent called anyone names.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Mr Bloodworth nailed it on the head.
To the OP, do not generalize everyone's playstyle to be near to that of yours. It isn't quite so simple.
The people that started playing mmo's when they started getting popular don't have near the amount of free time as they once did, so the mmo developers have adapted. Just because you have the time for such non entertainment doesn't mean that many other people do.
Sad that you look to a game for a sense of accomplishment.
My response:
Sad that people take building and painting miniatures for a sense of accomplishment. Sad that people take reading fluff novels with zero literary value for a sense of accomplishment. Sad that people take raising utterly useless children for a sense of accomplishment. Sad that people who are 'good' at an FPS (we'll say MW2 now since apparantly everyone is plaything that) for a sense of accomplishment. Sad that morons who talk about politics are treated with respect.
Shall I go on?
The ONLY reason why video games are looked down on whenever anybody talks about accomplishment is because there is no actual object you can touch or look at. There are, or at least used to be, video games that took tremendous amounts of dexterity, hand eye coordination and mental reflexes in order to complete things. Ninja Gaiden Black on the hardest difficulty comes to mind. It's one thing to say, 'oh it's a video game, pfft', but it's entirely another to actually have the reflexes and coordination to not get completely destroyed.
Designing an mmo around people who like to be challenged (personally I like facing a challenge every day, as many times through the day as possible...so adding another one, for me, is a plus) is a bad idea because it's a small crowd. However, designing an mmo with OPTIONS to create a more challenging atmosphere (in a dungeon, a PvP ladder, etc.) is entirely doable.
The main design problem though is gear. It's impossible to design everything to be equally challenging across gear levels. Most people enjoy mmo's because of character progression of which getting gear happens to be a large component. And the majority of people never grow out of the desire for more shinies, so it's equally impossible to remove gear from the equation. Well, to be accurate, there is only one way to remove gear from the equation.
K', I'll bite.
When you paint a miniature, would it be more rewarding if... should you happen to make a mistake, somebody would grab it and stomp it into a lead pancake? If you don't think so, then you're probably more aligned to my point of view than the OP's.
Sure, there is accomplishment in achieving something in games. The difference is, I don't think that accomplishment is so serious that it need be tied to serious risk or a forced grind "punishment". Further, I don't think adding risk attaches ANY MORE MEANING to an accomplishment in a game.
I DO have a bit of pride over the fact that in Tekken I can beat all the Eddie Gordo players I've played against with... BRIAN FURY. I like that I just went over to my brothers house last weekend and played Guitar Hero for the first time, and beat him on about 7 out of 9 songs... though I like that I can play an ACTUAL guitar better, but back on topic...
NONE of that would have been more interesting, exciting, challenging if I had to delete my guy and start over, or stand in the corner with dunce cap on for 10 minutes if I lost.
The OP's topic, like all other similar posts before it, is pure epeen nonsense. "I'm hardcore cuz I want tough death penalties!" IMO, a true hardcore player doesn't want to be sitting back in safe harbor grinding the materials to remake the armor and XP they lost, they want to get back into the area/raid/instance that took them out, and figure out how to succeed.
I thought that game's main purpose was having fun and entertainment.
And also I thought that this type of videogames weren't focused around a single person, but instead focused around a community of players.
But hey, maybe I was wrong all this time.....
I tend to agree with Op on a certain level.
As in no such game sadly exists to this point which is fun for me.