Until PvP is truly fleshed out from this superficial, backwater barbaric label of: full loot, death penalties, need for balance or artificial goals created by developers to tassel over, PvP will never be accepted as just being a part of all things MMO.
The day we can get developers to start making MMORPWs (Massively Multiplayer Role Playing World) instead of MMORPGs in the general sense we can move beyond these trivial spats of how PvP should be handled. Until developers inject MORAL penalties on a PvP driven player's character to follow that player around even after he caused a death of another and give meaning to the actual ACT of killing someone then players will decide what is worth fighting for and what is not.
That in itself would do much more for the genre that simply tacking on 4th wall penalties.
What should the moral penalties be for "killing" someone who will be resurrected in a few moments? Surely the penalties should be as light an evanescent as the effects of the crime? The consequences for "murdering" another player in an MMO are unrealistically light because the consequences of being murdered are also so very light.
Regardless, I think it should be up to the players to enforce moral decisions. They are probably the single most important factor in character immersion, and taking them away because you think other people aren't doing it right is tantamount to playing the game for me. No thanks.
Their points are valid in terms of PvP disappearing. I think most devs have come to the conclusion that managing both PvP and PvE in a shared environment is too big a workload for one dev team. Everything is trending more toward either full PvP or little/no PvP, and only one of those formats has a track record for making big bucks.
IMO, most PvP chatter on the boards is just epeen nonsense. Pointless cries of carebear, PVE'ers are inferior gamers, etc... sure it gets old, but if devs are listening, the trend doesn't seem to indicate it.
IMO, many PvP'ers got what they wished for in Darkfall; an ideologically uncompromising PvP experience. No auto attack, no targetting, full loot, ffa PvP. As a result, players are playing in remarkably silly ways. An ultimate example in "be careful what you wish for"...
May it be covered in college sociology papers worldwide...
darkfall is a horrible game that's why people hate it
Again, be careful what you wish for...
i'm pretty sure they didn't wish for a horrible game
Sometimes what people wish for makes for a horrible game.
Wishes matter not, they are irrelevant if bad game design and business model are present. Darkfall was a low budget low quality project from an inexperienced tiny european dev studio. They had a good vision, but the project was doomed by bad management and project leads. Furthermore its not just a wish many have for that style of game, but rather, the desire for another UO which has yet to be emulated.
So why is it so important to the PvPers here that there be no such thing as a pure PvE MMO? Yet totally acceptable to have a pure PvP MMO.
A MMO doesn't NEED PvP such as others are suggesting. Single player games are not PvP. A PvE MMO would be more concentrated on story, crafting,RP, and community. Devs would simply be able to spend their time adding content and story. Players could still affect the world in many ways without PvP conflict. Quests and storylines that could alter the world by destroying cities, or changing a dungeon n such.
And why do we always need to talk classes and balancing? Did nobody play UO or Pre-nge SWG? Can't we get away from the narrowminded WoW level formula? Not everyone is made equal, yet we expect this in all MMOs. Everybody needs to be able to do the same thing as the next guy. It's that varity of characters that make the grouping better and makes the PvE a bit more challanging.
I for one would love to see a pure PvE MMO with lots of exploring, crafting, and where players all need to rely on each others varity of skills to take on the PvE areas. Where there is no endgame because there is always something to do with friends...and the world keeps expanding. And where a newbie can hook up with a vet and they can explore/play in the same areas. Not separated because newbies can't go where the vets can.
But noooo...says the PvPer. They need a game where everybody is the same level,every class is balanced, and can get the same epic loot and it's gotta be fair for everybody. Or they want games that they can gank every newbie that logs into the game.
As long as MMOs keep trying to cater to both playstyles, neither group will be happy with any MMO.
Until PvP is truly fleshed out from this superficial, backwater barbaric label of: full loot, death penalties, need for balance or artificial goals created by developers to tassel over, PvP will never be accepted as just being a part of all things MMO.
The day we can get developers to start making MMORPWs (Massively Multiplayer Role Playing World) instead of MMORPGs in the general sense we can move beyond these trivial spats of how PvP should be handled. Until developers inject MORAL penalties on a PvP driven player's character to follow that player around even after he caused a death of another and give meaning to the actual ACT of killing someone then players will decide what is worth fighting for and what is not.
That in itself would do much more for the genre that simply tacking on 4th wall penalties.
What should the moral penalties be for "killing" someone who will be resurrected in a few moments? Surely the penalties should be as light an evanescent as the effects of the crime? The consequences for "murdering" another player in an MMO are unrealistically light because the consequences of being murdered are also so very light.
Regardless, I think it should be up to the players to enforce moral decisions. They are probably the single most important factor in character immersion, and taking them away because you think other people aren't doing it right is tantamount to playing the game for me. No thanks.
I remember back in the days of MUD's, I played Dragon Realms. I remember that you could steal from other players, even in towns. I remember that even if you caught them trying, there were no decent ways for retribution. You couldn't detain them, and If you attacked them, you were sent to jail for some amount of time. They had a sherriff system that you were supposed to report to for stealing, but you had to find the sherriff in a set amount of time, and you'd have to search for him all over town, and even if you found him, you still didn't get your money back. In short, moral/justice systems are tough, and would probably have to be extremely sophisticated.
Devs have quite the challenge to get PvP right. Unless everyone has the same specs, the same weapons, the same skills(character-based), there will always be cries of imbalance. Even then, there will be people complaining about the code being in preference of Intel/AMD, ATI/NVidia, XP/W7... etc...
Devs probably know, SHOULD know, that PvP games have a built in attrition to them. You'll have the l33ts who naturally love the game, the middle folks, and the players who almost always get beat. Those who always get beat will get tired of being beat and drop their subs, and the next least good players will start recieving the beatdowns. They'll quit, and the cycle continues. All you can do as a developer is keep sweetening the pot for new players to come in. But in a PvP battle between the beginner and the expert, you know that that new player is more than likely not gonna last the month.
So how do you overcome these problems and create a successful PvP MMO? How do you appease the majority of PvP players who by nature are stringent PvP fundamentalists, yet so often disagree on what those fundamentals are?
TBH, if I were a gaming dev, I'd say, "what's our next PvE mmo gonna be?".
So why is it so important to the PvPers here that there be no such thing as a pure PvE MMO? Yet totally acceptable to have a pure PvP MMO. A MMO doesn't NEED PvP such as others are suggesting. Single player games are not PvP. A PvE MMO would be more concentrated on story, crafting,RP, and community. Devs would simply be able to spend their time adding content and story. Players could still affect the world in many ways without PvP conflict. Quests and storylines that could alter the world by destroying cities, or changing a dungeon n such. And why do we always need to talk classes and balancing? Did nobody play UO or Pre-nge SWG? Can't we get away from the narrowminded WoW level formula? Not everyone is made equal, yet we expect this in all MMOs. Everybody needs to be able to do the same thing as the next guy. It's that varity of characters that make the grouping better and makes the PvE a bit more challanging. I for one would love to see a pure PvE MMO with lots of exploring, crafting, and where players all need to rely on each others varity of skills to take on the PvE areas. Where there is no endgame because there is always something to do with friends...and the world keeps expanding. And where a newbie can hook up with a vet and they can explore/play in the same areas. Not separated because newbies can't go where the vets can. But noooo...says the PvPer. They need a game where everybody is the same level,every class is balanced, and can get the same epic loot and it's gotta be fair for everybody. Or they want games that they can gank every newbie that logs into the game. As long as MMOs keep trying to cater to both playstyles, neither group will be happy with any MMO.
Its not that there shouldnt be a pure PvE mmorpg, just that there WONT be one. As mentioned earlier, PvE mmo's carry more risk, the target audience is smaller than those who prefer both pvp and pve focused games, all pvp mmorpgs feature a form of pve, since it is the tool for character progression. Those who enjoy pvp are often times those who like challenges, and a challenge is the core mechanic of what a video game is. A rule set that creates challenges. Right now, PvE is not necessarily a challenge, its a time sink. Its grind. Enemies are scaled by more hp and attack power, but not by intelligence. They are predictable. Do you understand? PvE in its own right is a form of alienation, or anti-immersion if certain qualities are missing.
PVE only mmorpgs cannot be a viable large market game until the technology and design allows for advanced AI. Player input as the challenge does not hurt the frame rate or the technology, computer run AI does. It is for this reason that PvE games cannot be realized as a challenge rather than a time sink at this time.
Like the film Avatar, Cameron waited until the technology allowed for the film he wanted to create without the previous limitations. The same has to happen for certain types of games as well.
The major publishers will not make a PvE only title for the reason that there is less profit to be made from it, its only a niche market and as many have seen, the communities an be pretty harsh towards the publisher/developer. To reach the widest audience, both pvp and pve needs to be present, giving the player the choice as to which they want to participate in. Some people need to realize that as players you shouldnt whine about not having access to all the content even though its not part you want to play (pvp).
It is very time consuming to create scripted PvE content, which most often has to be instanced. Its expensive to keep huge teams working on such things, which is why when a mmorpg is released the team is moved onto different projects. YOU dont keep the same team working on the same mmorpg indefinately. It doesnt work that way. Therefore PvP keeps the game running through player driven content, conflict and challenges. Believe it or not, competing with another player in social status, in money, in gear, in a PVE only game is still PVP.
The computer cannot compete like a rational thinking human can in a mmorpg, and until there is progress on that field as well as huge leaps and bounds with internet speeds... its just not going to happen. Try not to confuse that with those who enjoy PvP as well not wanting there to be PvE only games.
Finally, pvp and pve are not isolated nor black and white. They both stem from the same form of challenge in game theory. To want one and not the other is actually impossible for a mmorpg... there will always be elements of both, or else it ceases being a mmorpg.
I wonder why the OP even did this. It's not like it is going to change the Devs minds into making the best PvE game ever. They're gonna continue doing what they want to do regardless if they see this thread or not, it isn't up to this community if the next game is either PVE or PVP XD. ...and no we will not let you have your PVE, for we have the power to do whatever we feel like doing bwuahahahaha!
Just to let you know, I did this because I wanted to state what I liked in a game and to see what others thought about the idea. I believe that a lot of people really would like a full PVE MMO, but it seems to me that the people who support PVP are always more vocal on the forums. Don't really know why that is, but it does seem to be the trend.
Their points are valid in terms of PvP disappearing. I think most devs have come to the conclusion that managing both PvP and PvE in a shared environment is too big a workload for one dev team. Everything is trending more toward either full PvP or little/no PvP, and only one of those formats has a track record for making big bucks.
IMO, most PvP chatter on the boards is just epeen nonsense. Pointless cries of carebear, PVE'ers are inferior gamers, etc... sure it gets old, but if devs are listening, the trend doesn't seem to indicate it.
IMO, many PvP'ers got what they wished for in Darkfall; an ideologically uncompromising PvP experience. No auto attack, no targetting, full loot, ffa PvP. As a result, players are playing in remarkably silly ways. An ultimate example in "be careful what you wish for"...
May it be covered in college sociology papers worldwide...
darkfall is a horrible game that's why people hate it
Troll you never played Darkfall your just one of those many who jump on the bandwagon and spread lies around that Darkfall is horrible.
Its not its a great mmo for those who love a open free non instance sandbox world with free for all full loot pvp it was always intended to be for nich market only a few can handle harsh pvp thats why its not popular not becouse its horrible.
Now go troll somewhere else.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
TBH, if I were a gaming dev, I'd say, "what's our next PvE mmo gonna be?".
Virtually all of them do anyway. Really, the OP's plea is like asking for more rain in England. Sure, it doesn't rain all the time, but jeez, there's more than enough for any reasonable person. What new MMOs aren't going to be heavily PvE-centric? ST:O? Nope. SW:TOR? Nope. And so on. And really, it's not that I mind. I only play one MMO, so all the others can be world of happy rainbowfunland onlinecraft for all I care. But honestly, someone complaining about there not being enough PvE games sounds like those rich white guys who complain about being racially discriminated against. The point I was making was that you can't legislate against asshattery. The more rules and restrictions you put on player interaction, the more safety and loopholes you give the Greater Internet Fuckwads to fire from. The only way to avoid dealing with GIFs is to play single player, or maybe private server. Otherwise you want players to be free to deal with those who offend them. Will those freedoms be abused? Of course - that's the very nature of freedom. It's up to the players to see that use outweighs abuse - and if interacting and working with other players is not what you like, why are you even playing an MMO? The example I am thinking of here is EvE; 99.9% of what gets called griefing, smacking, scamming & so forth goes on in hi-sec, where players are restricted from shooting each other. In 0.0, you know who your friends are, and if they turn on you, then they are punished by your corp or alliance or coalition, as appropriate. People are far better behaved in null-sec.
Actually I was asking for an all PVE game, not a PVE-centric game. If you look at SW-TOR and ST-Online, they both claim they will implement some form of PVP later. I just haven't seen a game that has mixed the two that has been a success yet in satisfying both types of player. It always seems that the PVP players do not get enough PVP content or the PVE'ers are always being balanced because of PVP.
The best success so far has been WOW for melding both together which has been quite successful in MMO's. But most PVP'ers state they want more of a hardcore PVP game, so I like the current trend of seeing the PVP games go full PVP to satisfy or try to satisfy that market. Maybe some people do not like the current PVP games out there, but maybe those games will evolve to what they want.
I would like a full PVE game just like the PVP'ers want a full PVP game. No reason to hate me or label me because my goals are not the same as your goals.
If you look at the current list of MMO games, almost all of them are a mix of PVE/PVP with probably LOTRO and WoW being the closest to full PVE games. Most games either have instanced PVP, special PVP servers etc.
If you develop a game for PVE with the intent to later incorporate PVP into the game it seems that one or the other has to suffer from whatever one is being developed at the time.
It may never happen or it may, but this is what I would like to see. Plain and simple.
Too much roll not enough role these days. We've slipped very far from the tabletops that these games were entirely based on, in an RPG it is the players versus the world, not the players competing. I had a guy ask me once in a game I ran when he'd get to pit his barbarian against the paladin. I told him never because that isn't what the game is about. Then he asked: "Then how do I win the game if I can't play against anyone."
Stupid question I know, but that's what I get for trying to introduce story mode to a tournament fighter fan.
Don't get me wrong, I PvP. It's called Team Fortress and is fair and balanced since there are no upgrades to be had by anyone.
I just want to know at what point exactly the ROLE in Role-Playing Game was forgotten and which idiot it was that thought that was a good idea.
PvP'ers vs PvE'ers ... 'Carebears' vs 'Power Rangers' (yeah thats what I call em, deal with it) This is one of those debates that will go on from now until the end of time. The truth of the matter is that a game focusing on just one of the two will always be considered a niche game. Developed for a very specific consumer. If you have x number of players wanting pvp and x arguing for pve, the developers will melt both game styles together to try and get the most subscriptions they can, the most profit.
Now, doing that well is where the problem is, and where the most arguing comes in.. 'If they would have just done....' 'Why cant they just...' 'How hard is it too...'
As you can see I really dont have a point other than trying to get those who insist one style is better than the other to try and accept that one cannot live without the other... I guess.. I'm going to go eat a cookie now.
Until PvP is truly fleshed out from this superficial, backwater barbaric label of: full loot, death penalties, need for balance or artificial goals created by developers to tassel over, PvP will never be accepted as just being a part of all things MMO.
The day we can get developers to start making MMORPWs (Massively Multiplayer Role Playing World) instead of MMORPGs in the general sense we can move beyond these trivial spats of how PvP should be handled. Until developers inject MORAL penalties on a PvP driven player's character to follow that player around even after he caused a death of another and give meaning to the actual ACT of killing someone then players will decide what is worth fighting for and what is not.
That in itself would do much more for the genre that simply tacking on 4th wall penalties.
What should the moral penalties be for "killing" someone who will be resurrected in a few moments? Surely the penalties should be as light an evanescent as the effects of the crime? The consequences for "murdering" another player in an MMO are unrealistically light because the consequences of being murdered are also so very light.
Regardless, I think it should be up to the players to enforce moral decisions. They are probably the single most important factor in character immersion, and taking them away because you think other people aren't doing it right is tantamount to playing the game for me. No thanks.
I think you misunderstood where I was going with that. Currently there is no penalty for killing someone in most MMOs. And it's that very thing that makes deciding to kill someone based solely on if you think you can take them down. Well in my book it wouldn't be the only thing players would have to think over.
What if you got a "ill-will aura" on your character every time you killed someone? And multiple killings would make that aura stronger and stronger. Example:
1 kill = npc shunning (higher prices for goods and services)
2 kills = open PvP (Kinda like gray mode from UO)
3 kills = Shutout mode (KoS from NPC guards)
Each level would decay at a rate of one level for every 24 real hours, unless you repented at a church (just like UO) or with a traveling friar. And each time you repent it would lower your ill-will by one level. Of course repenting is allowed once every 12 real hours. A system like this would actually get players to think more about IF they should kill a person rather than if they COULD kill a person.
When I say moral penalties I'm thinking more in line with creative ways developers can use to draw players more into a believable thriving world rather than superficial penalties that do more harm than good.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
/signed! Never were there truer words! You got your years, PVPer, now its time we get some niceness for our wishes. I am so sick and tired of everything revolving around that stupid PVP of yours. Give me cool powers, give me story, give me a complex world where no PVP nerfing and whatever comes with PVP happens.
how about i give you a single player game, and you can invite your friends over and take turns ... you got your pve and your social activity all in 1 shot right there,
How about I give you an arena style game like TF2 and you guys have endless PVP? =P
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
"now I would like an AAA game to come out that is only PVE to satisfy the PVE gamers like myself. A game which has expansive areas to run around in for exploration. A multitude of classes that are quite different form each other with a wide selection of races to make the mix really varied."
Ever play X-box 360 or Playstation 3? I heard they have quite a few pve only games.
"now I would like an AAA game to come out that is only PVE to satisfy the PVE gamers like myself. A game which has expansive areas to run around in for exploration. A multitude of classes that are quite different form each other with a wide selection of races to make the mix really varied."
Ever play X-box 360 or Playstation 3? I heard they have quite a few pve only games.
Well the MMO hobby is supposed to be about social interaction in a different environment, now for most people (I certainly hope) social interaction does not mean ganking. There has been plenty of posts here talking about that " A PVE stand alone title is not feasible anymore it has to include PvP" and I am not to sure about that there is just as much proof that the PvP titles are unfeasible and that is why they put in PvP in everything at the moment. Furthermore the fact that almost all PvP titles have been "dumbed down" as per the PvPers themselves, to accomodate the "Carebears" proves that there is not enough PvP players out there.
And if you really are into high stress and anxiety I can recommend taking a job in retail customer service especially now in Christmas, that will get your adrenaline flowing!
Its a comon mistake by PVPers to claim that PVE content is for single player games only. There are alot of ways to involve a comunity into PVE content and alot of the PVE driven MMOs today do that. Social aspects of these games are much more sought after than the "kill or be killed" features of the niche PVP genre. At the same time features like Auction houses take on a life on their own in many of these games - since the crafting and gathering systems in PVE oriented games are usually much better thought out and give more options for meaningfull ingame markets.
Thus... PVE MMO games have a huge succsess rate amongs gamers. Cause most of the time they are simply more enjoyable where the comon goal of pretty much everyone is reached. And competition is still going on - just in diffrent form as killing the "enemy".
Comments
What should the moral penalties be for "killing" someone who will be resurrected in a few moments? Surely the penalties should be as light an evanescent as the effects of the crime? The consequences for "murdering" another player in an MMO are unrealistically light because the consequences of being murdered are also so very light.
Regardless, I think it should be up to the players to enforce moral decisions. They are probably the single most important factor in character immersion, and taking them away because you think other people aren't doing it right is tantamount to playing the game for me. No thanks.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Their points are valid in terms of PvP disappearing. I think most devs have come to the conclusion that managing both PvP and PvE in a shared environment is too big a workload for one dev team. Everything is trending more toward either full PvP or little/no PvP, and only one of those formats has a track record for making big bucks.
IMO, most PvP chatter on the boards is just epeen nonsense. Pointless cries of carebear, PVE'ers are inferior gamers, etc... sure it gets old, but if devs are listening, the trend doesn't seem to indicate it.
IMO, many PvP'ers got what they wished for in Darkfall; an ideologically uncompromising PvP experience. No auto attack, no targetting, full loot, ffa PvP. As a result, players are playing in remarkably silly ways. An ultimate example in "be careful what you wish for"...
May it be covered in college sociology papers worldwide...
darkfall is a horrible game that's why people hate it
Again, be careful what you wish for...
i'm pretty sure they didn't wish for a horrible game
Sometimes what people wish for makes for a horrible game.
Wishes matter not, they are irrelevant if bad game design and business model are present. Darkfall was a low budget low quality project from an inexperienced tiny european dev studio. They had a good vision, but the project was doomed by bad management and project leads. Furthermore its not just a wish many have for that style of game, but rather, the desire for another UO which has yet to be emulated.
So why is it so important to the PvPers here that there be no such thing as a pure PvE MMO? Yet totally acceptable to have a pure PvP MMO.
A MMO doesn't NEED PvP such as others are suggesting. Single player games are not PvP. A PvE MMO would be more concentrated on story, crafting,RP, and community. Devs would simply be able to spend their time adding content and story. Players could still affect the world in many ways without PvP conflict. Quests and storylines that could alter the world by destroying cities, or changing a dungeon n such.
And why do we always need to talk classes and balancing? Did nobody play UO or Pre-nge SWG? Can't we get away from the narrowminded WoW level formula? Not everyone is made equal, yet we expect this in all MMOs. Everybody needs to be able to do the same thing as the next guy. It's that varity of characters that make the grouping better and makes the PvE a bit more challanging.
I for one would love to see a pure PvE MMO with lots of exploring, crafting, and where players all need to rely on each others varity of skills to take on the PvE areas. Where there is no endgame because there is always something to do with friends...and the world keeps expanding. And where a newbie can hook up with a vet and they can explore/play in the same areas. Not separated because newbies can't go where the vets can.
But noooo...says the PvPer. They need a game where everybody is the same level,every class is balanced, and can get the same epic loot and it's gotta be fair for everybody. Or they want games that they can gank every newbie that logs into the game.
As long as MMOs keep trying to cater to both playstyles, neither group will be happy with any MMO.
What should the moral penalties be for "killing" someone who will be resurrected in a few moments? Surely the penalties should be as light an evanescent as the effects of the crime? The consequences for "murdering" another player in an MMO are unrealistically light because the consequences of being murdered are also so very light.
Regardless, I think it should be up to the players to enforce moral decisions. They are probably the single most important factor in character immersion, and taking them away because you think other people aren't doing it right is tantamount to playing the game for me. No thanks.
I remember back in the days of MUD's, I played Dragon Realms. I remember that you could steal from other players, even in towns. I remember that even if you caught them trying, there were no decent ways for retribution. You couldn't detain them, and If you attacked them, you were sent to jail for some amount of time. They had a sherriff system that you were supposed to report to for stealing, but you had to find the sherriff in a set amount of time, and you'd have to search for him all over town, and even if you found him, you still didn't get your money back. In short, moral/justice systems are tough, and would probably have to be extremely sophisticated.
Devs have quite the challenge to get PvP right. Unless everyone has the same specs, the same weapons, the same skills(character-based), there will always be cries of imbalance. Even then, there will be people complaining about the code being in preference of Intel/AMD, ATI/NVidia, XP/W7... etc...
Devs probably know, SHOULD know, that PvP games have a built in attrition to them. You'll have the l33ts who naturally love the game, the middle folks, and the players who almost always get beat. Those who always get beat will get tired of being beat and drop their subs, and the next least good players will start recieving the beatdowns. They'll quit, and the cycle continues. All you can do as a developer is keep sweetening the pot for new players to come in. But in a PvP battle between the beginner and the expert, you know that that new player is more than likely not gonna last the month.
So how do you overcome these problems and create a successful PvP MMO? How do you appease the majority of PvP players who by nature are stringent PvP fundamentalists, yet so often disagree on what those fundamentals are?
TBH, if I were a gaming dev, I'd say, "what's our next PvE mmo gonna be?".
Its not that there shouldnt be a pure PvE mmorpg, just that there WONT be one. As mentioned earlier, PvE mmo's carry more risk, the target audience is smaller than those who prefer both pvp and pve focused games, all pvp mmorpgs feature a form of pve, since it is the tool for character progression. Those who enjoy pvp are often times those who like challenges, and a challenge is the core mechanic of what a video game is. A rule set that creates challenges. Right now, PvE is not necessarily a challenge, its a time sink. Its grind. Enemies are scaled by more hp and attack power, but not by intelligence. They are predictable. Do you understand? PvE in its own right is a form of alienation, or anti-immersion if certain qualities are missing.
PVE only mmorpgs cannot be a viable large market game until the technology and design allows for advanced AI. Player input as the challenge does not hurt the frame rate or the technology, computer run AI does. It is for this reason that PvE games cannot be realized as a challenge rather than a time sink at this time.
Like the film Avatar, Cameron waited until the technology allowed for the film he wanted to create without the previous limitations. The same has to happen for certain types of games as well.
The major publishers will not make a PvE only title for the reason that there is less profit to be made from it, its only a niche market and as many have seen, the communities an be pretty harsh towards the publisher/developer. To reach the widest audience, both pvp and pve needs to be present, giving the player the choice as to which they want to participate in. Some people need to realize that as players you shouldnt whine about not having access to all the content even though its not part you want to play (pvp).
It is very time consuming to create scripted PvE content, which most often has to be instanced. Its expensive to keep huge teams working on such things, which is why when a mmorpg is released the team is moved onto different projects. YOU dont keep the same team working on the same mmorpg indefinately. It doesnt work that way. Therefore PvP keeps the game running through player driven content, conflict and challenges. Believe it or not, competing with another player in social status, in money, in gear, in a PVE only game is still PVP.
The computer cannot compete like a rational thinking human can in a mmorpg, and until there is progress on that field as well as huge leaps and bounds with internet speeds... its just not going to happen. Try not to confuse that with those who enjoy PvP as well not wanting there to be PvE only games.
Finally, pvp and pve are not isolated nor black and white. They both stem from the same form of challenge in game theory. To want one and not the other is actually impossible for a mmorpg... there will always be elements of both, or else it ceases being a mmorpg.
Just to let you know, I did this because I wanted to state what I liked in a game and to see what others thought about the idea. I believe that a lot of people really would like a full PVE MMO, but it seems to me that the people who support PVP are always more vocal on the forums. Don't really know why that is, but it does seem to be the trend.
Their points are valid in terms of PvP disappearing. I think most devs have come to the conclusion that managing both PvP and PvE in a shared environment is too big a workload for one dev team. Everything is trending more toward either full PvP or little/no PvP, and only one of those formats has a track record for making big bucks.
IMO, most PvP chatter on the boards is just epeen nonsense. Pointless cries of carebear, PVE'ers are inferior gamers, etc... sure it gets old, but if devs are listening, the trend doesn't seem to indicate it.
IMO, many PvP'ers got what they wished for in Darkfall; an ideologically uncompromising PvP experience. No auto attack, no targetting, full loot, ffa PvP. As a result, players are playing in remarkably silly ways. An ultimate example in "be careful what you wish for"...
May it be covered in college sociology papers worldwide...
darkfall is a horrible game that's why people hate it
Troll you never played Darkfall your just one of those many who jump on the bandwagon and spread lies around that Darkfall is horrible.
Its not its a great mmo for those who love a open free non instance sandbox world with free for all full loot pvp it was always intended to be for nich market only a few can handle harsh pvp thats why its not popular not becouse its horrible.
Now go troll somewhere else.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Actually I was asking for an all PVE game, not a PVE-centric game. If you look at SW-TOR and ST-Online, they both claim they will implement some form of PVP later. I just haven't seen a game that has mixed the two that has been a success yet in satisfying both types of player. It always seems that the PVP players do not get enough PVP content or the PVE'ers are always being balanced because of PVP.
The best success so far has been WOW for melding both together which has been quite successful in MMO's. But most PVP'ers state they want more of a hardcore PVP game, so I like the current trend of seeing the PVP games go full PVP to satisfy or try to satisfy that market. Maybe some people do not like the current PVP games out there, but maybe those games will evolve to what they want.
I would like a full PVE game just like the PVP'ers want a full PVP game. No reason to hate me or label me because my goals are not the same as your goals.
If you look at the current list of MMO games, almost all of them are a mix of PVE/PVP with probably LOTRO and WoW being the closest to full PVE games. Most games either have instanced PVP, special PVP servers etc.
If you develop a game for PVE with the intent to later incorporate PVP into the game it seems that one or the other has to suffer from whatever one is being developed at the time.
It may never happen or it may, but this is what I would like to see. Plain and simple.
/agreed
Too much roll not enough role these days. We've slipped very far from the tabletops that these games were entirely based on, in an RPG it is the players versus the world, not the players competing. I had a guy ask me once in a game I ran when he'd get to pit his barbarian against the paladin. I told him never because that isn't what the game is about. Then he asked: "Then how do I win the game if I can't play against anyone."
Stupid question I know, but that's what I get for trying to introduce story mode to a tournament fighter fan.
Don't get me wrong, I PvP. It's called Team Fortress and is fair and balanced since there are no upgrades to be had by anyone.
I just want to know at what point exactly the ROLE in Role-Playing Game was forgotten and which idiot it was that thought that was a good idea.
PvP'ers vs PvE'ers ... 'Carebears' vs 'Power Rangers' (yeah thats what I call em, deal with it) This is one of those debates that will go on from now until the end of time. The truth of the matter is that a game focusing on just one of the two will always be considered a niche game. Developed for a very specific consumer. If you have x number of players wanting pvp and x arguing for pve, the developers will melt both game styles together to try and get the most subscriptions they can, the most profit.
Now, doing that well is where the problem is, and where the most arguing comes in.. 'If they would have just done....' 'Why cant they just...' 'How hard is it too...'
As you can see I really dont have a point other than trying to get those who insist one style is better than the other to try and accept that one cannot live without the other... I guess.. I'm going to go eat a cookie now.
What should the moral penalties be for "killing" someone who will be resurrected in a few moments? Surely the penalties should be as light an evanescent as the effects of the crime? The consequences for "murdering" another player in an MMO are unrealistically light because the consequences of being murdered are also so very light.
Regardless, I think it should be up to the players to enforce moral decisions. They are probably the single most important factor in character immersion, and taking them away because you think other people aren't doing it right is tantamount to playing the game for me. No thanks.
I think you misunderstood where I was going with that. Currently there is no penalty for killing someone in most MMOs. And it's that very thing that makes deciding to kill someone based solely on if you think you can take them down. Well in my book it wouldn't be the only thing players would have to think over.
What if you got a "ill-will aura" on your character every time you killed someone? And multiple killings would make that aura stronger and stronger. Example:
Each level would decay at a rate of one level for every 24 real hours, unless you repented at a church (just like UO) or with a traveling friar. And each time you repent it would lower your ill-will by one level. Of course repenting is allowed once every 12 real hours. A system like this would actually get players to think more about IF they should kill a person rather than if they COULD kill a person.
When I say moral penalties I'm thinking more in line with creative ways developers can use to draw players more into a believable thriving world rather than superficial penalties that do more harm than good.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
how about i give you a single player game, and you can invite your friends over and take turns ... you got your pve and your social activity all in 1 shot right there,
How about I give you an arena style game like TF2 and you guys have endless PVP? =P
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
"now I would like an AAA game to come out that is only PVE to satisfy the PVE gamers like myself. A game which has expansive areas to run around in for exploration. A multitude of classes that are quite different form each other with a wide selection of races to make the mix really varied."
Ever play X-box 360 or Playstation 3? I heard they have quite a few pve only games.
Well the MMO hobby is supposed to be about social interaction in a different environment, now for most people (I certainly hope) social interaction does not mean ganking. There has been plenty of posts here talking about that " A PVE stand alone title is not feasible anymore it has to include PvP" and I am not to sure about that there is just as much proof that the PvP titles are unfeasible and that is why they put in PvP in everything at the moment. Furthermore the fact that almost all PvP titles have been "dumbed down" as per the PvPers themselves, to accomodate the "Carebears" proves that there is not enough PvP players out there.
And if you really are into high stress and anxiety I can recommend taking a job in retail customer service especially now in Christmas, that will get your adrenaline flowing!
Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.
He who can describe the flame does not burn.
Petrarch
Its a comon mistake by PVPers to claim that PVE content is for single player games only. There are alot of ways to involve a comunity into PVE content and alot of the PVE driven MMOs today do that. Social aspects of these games are much more sought after than the "kill or be killed" features of the niche PVP genre. At the same time features like Auction houses take on a life on their own in many of these games - since the crafting and gathering systems in PVE oriented games are usually much better thought out and give more options for meaningfull ingame markets.
Thus... PVE MMO games have a huge succsess rate amongs gamers. Cause most of the time they are simply more enjoyable where the comon goal of pretty much everyone is reached. And competition is still going on - just in diffrent form as killing the "enemy".