Interesting, I am one step away from clarifying my idea ;p. My idea of a good skill system is basically a class based system backwards...I know XD
The thing that the skill based system has is exactly what you said, the character experienced a little bit of warrior and is fine with it, but doesn't want it to be his main focus, so he changes to learn a few archer abilities, he then realizes he loves sniping people and hiding from afar so he chooses to specialize in that role and leave warrior as a secondary skill. In a class based system you would be forced to play as a warrior as your primary role, but in skill based system you could choose your primary role over time after tasting every skill, this could easily be done if for each 5 levels you advanced, you could choose to RELOCATE a skill point you might not like, maybe you tried out warrior, archer and mage, but you decide to stick with 1st -archer/ 2nd -mage, so you use your relocating items to relocate a few points from warrior which you don't really need that much to become much better at your chosen skills. At the end when you reached an extreme, advanced enough in one or two orientations (Warrior, archer, mage) you would be given an spectacular ability like you said.
In class based system you are forced to choose without knowing how your play style will be forced to be, while in a WELL MADE skill based system you can choose what to be overtime as you experiment. So yeah I agree with you, its all thanks to poor game design from the developers, an MMO should be made thinking about the crucial features from the start instead of your typical target and attack MMO template (wow, RoM, Allods and probably many more I haven't bothered with).
Have you played D&D Online? Its not like RoM where you have a primary and secondary class. You can multiclass up to three classes and you choose which class to raise every time you go to train up a level. You retain all the abilities of each class you have chosen. You could easily start as a warrior and then train as a wizard for a level, then add another level to warrior, then add a couple rogue levels. Its very flexible and doesn't really force you into any primary role at all.
Of course the downside of any game that gives that kind of flexibility is that you end up with a lot of people that try to do too much and end up sucking at everything. The same thing could happen in most skill based games as well so no big deal there.
If you haven't played DDO its worth a look, at least to check out their Builds Forum just to see what kind of characters people come up with. The game doesn't use a crappy target and attack combat either. Who knows, maybe it will turn you into a fan of class based games. If nothing else, its a prime example of what can be done with character development that is deep as hell and flexible enough to make just about anything.
I've actually been a little disappointed with Fallen Earth's skill system. Its feeling an awful lot like a game with 6 classes. Rifle, Pistol, and Melee, then three more with the same weapon choices and a crafting focus. The mutations and factions tack on a little diversity, but no more than talent trees do in WoW or the class customization of many other games.
Were MMOs fail is at making an effective and entertaining tutorial on tips of how to build your character, be it class based or skill based.
If I were ever to design a tutorial I'd do this:
I'd make a little zelda style fairy (A Shiny Blue ball with bug wings) yell at you, "Don't even think about trying to train all the skills", "just focus on the few ones you really like or you are going to sorely FAIL" and have the fairy keep crashing against everything.
All tutorials I have seen never catch my attention, with a hilarious guide I am sure I would have paid attention.
I checked the forums and these are just the kind of characters I am talking about, but I still prefer to do it backwards though, I guess we all think differently.
if I could just gather all these ideas, character build, interactive world and epic combat gameplay, it would be epic.
Originally posted by wisesquirrel If I were ever to design a tutorial I'd do this: I'd make a little zelda style fairy (A Shiny Blue ball with bug wings) yell at you, "Don't even think about trying to train all the skills", "just focus on the few ones you really like or you are going to sorely FAIL" and have the fairy keep crashing against everything.
Were MMOs fail is at making an effective and entertaining tutorial on tips of how to build your character, be it class based or skill based. If I were ever to design a tutorial I'd do this: I'd make a little zelda style fairy (A Shiny Blue ball with bug wings) yell at you, "Don't even think about trying to train all the skills", "just focus on the few ones you really like or you are going to sorely FAIL" and have the fairy keep crashing against everything. All tutorials I have seen never catch my attention, with a hilarious guide I am sure I would have paid attention. _________________________________________________________________________________________ I checked the forums and these are just the kind of characters I am talking about, but I still prefer to do it backwards though, I guess we all think differently. if I could just gather all these ideas, character build, interactive world and epic combat gameplay, it would be epic.
Honestly, thats part of the challenge of the MMO is to figure out on your own how to efficiently work your character's class and which are appropriate given they allow you to recover from mistakes on your build/character setup. I don't think a tutorial is necessary if not should be discouraged because then people are just going to want the developers to tell them how to play the game as well. We're not left with too many options to distinguish the good from the bad players if everyone is being told how to effectively build up their characters.
No tutorial needed, leave it up to the players to figure it out. When I play RTS's, there's no programmer leading me on with tutorials on the best strategies for a particular race/faction is or in an FPS, which weapon I should be using at a given time. Again, that's the challenge of the game and even if they did not allow you a way to fix a talent selection or a choice made, it would make each of those development choices THAT much more important. Maybe people would stop flying through the game that way and learn to take their time and consider all their actions.
It would still be best if they could at least warn you to not make a complete mistake from which you couldn't recover from.
No guides on perfect build (The community is probably going to brag about theirs and tell everyone it is the best), because even I'm lost when I start any MMO, especially if it is too different from others, if I ever make one it will probably be completely different from these lame excuses to amuse me ;p.
It would still be best if they could at least warn you to not make a complete mistake from which you couldn't recover from.
Or, alternatively, to allow you to make ammends on your mistake.
With ye olde UO, for example (from what I read) - you could have at maximum, about 700 skill points, and there were heaps of skills, levelupable to 100 each.
Say you have all 700 skill points used, you could then decide to train a new skill, but reduce another skill for it.
Funnily enough, the closest thing I can think of that closely relates is Pokemon Red through to Diamond, where you have four moves and must "forget" an old skill in order to learn a new one.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
I head about how everyone in DF was basically a carbon-copy of one another skill-wise.
At least with classes I'm not like everyone else.
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I head about how everyone in DF was basically a carbon-copy of one another skill-wise. At least with classes I'm not like everyone else.
Depends on many things, but overall it depends on how you make the skill system work, and how you balance different skills.
Adding different types of attacks and attack types adds an element to the player...
Basically, if you make the skill sets either really complex, or really simple, you would likely get a fairly varied bunch of play styles.
But I heard that you could level every skill as high as you wanted, so in the end, you could do anything you damn well please.
Playing: World Of Warcraft Resting From: Nothing Retired: EQ2, CoH, Tabula Rasa, SWG, Warhammer, AoC Waiting For: SWTOR, APB Love(d): Tabula Rasa, SWG, World Of Warcraft, Age of Conan
If you mean obsession to be able to customize our character along the way, well its a bit more fun that having to choose a straight path which you can never go back again later.
You chose to be a warrior, you can't be a wizard now.
In a well made skill based system a warrior can do decent magic.
And no, no MMO so far has done a decent skill system so I wouldn't compare those with class based ones just yet..
If you mean obsession to be able to customize our character along the way, well its a bit more fun that having to choose a straight path which you can never go back again later. You chose to be a warrior, you can't be a wizard now. In a well made skill based system a warrior can do decent magic. And no, no MMO so far has done a decent skill system so I wouldn't compare those with class based ones just yet..
Asheron's Call had a nice skill based system. If it came out before Everquest then we would probly be seeing more skill systems than class based.
Ok I'm just saying, don't compare Asheron's call as a skill based game, it makes them look bad.
I haven't played it, but I heard it lets you level all skills to the Max level, and that's not customization, thats jsut someone that is good at everything and that really discourages grouping.
Asheron's call isn't a good example of skill based games.
But I heard that you could level every skill as high as you wanted, so in the end, you could do anything you damn well please.
Yes, there aren't distinct playstyles in DF and everyone's a sort of muddied hybrid. The only vaguely defined roles are that you have two main types of armor, heavy and light, with light being used by casters and heavy being used by melee/archers (because heavy armor carries casting penalties.)
It definitely weakens the presence of roles in the game. Not a crippling failure but a disappointment as roles add a lot of teamplay to multiplayer games. Teamplay isn't nonexistant in DF (there's quite a few support buffs), but it plays a weakened role in the gameplay.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I notice in pretty much any post where someone posts an idea for their game, they always have to list classes. But why? It's an inferior outdated system that locks the player into a certain playstyle. I know a few people are going to rush in here and say "Balance!", but imo that's bullshit, what matters most is the player's ability to have fun and play the way they want to play, and I think classes get in the way of that. I wouldn't say entirely skill-based like Darkfall though is an optimal system either, because everyone can do everything and that's no good either. Really I think the best system is a design your own class where you get a certain amount of points to pick various skills from a list, and a limited amount of points to choose your starting dexterity and stuff. So I'm wondering, is there any reason that most of you advocate classes over a "build your own class" system? Have you guys ever tried an alternate system?
Policeman has mid-life crisis and quits his job. Policeman goes to academy and trains to be a Fireman. Policeman is now a Fireman. Swap "Policeman" and "Fireman" and it's still correct.
People are not always "locked" into one state of being or occupation throughout their lives, or else many more people would still be a "Student", "Fast-Food Clerk", "Intern", "Benchwarmer", etc. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the topic of this thread, but I don't think this particular analogy works here.
Then you haven't made a meaningful decision at all. You are looking to avoid meaningful decisions and have essentially bypassed one of the fundamental tenants of gaming. Also, choosing to be a generic mish-mash of all roles has no context without having class based games to give it any meaning. Without class based gaming you wouldn't be a Mage + Theif + Warrior, instead you would just be a 'character' that, in the end, is just like everyone else. You would be playing a class based game with only one class.
how is it possible that nobody has yet to mention the greatest skill based game of all time ? hello, star wars galaxies people. 250 skill points to be spent on whatever you pleased. and whats with all this obsession of "balance" ? is there some sorta rule that says we all must be equal in an mmo ? Star Wars Galaxies didnt have balance, it even had an alpha class that in most cases was unbeatable. there were cookie cutter templates that were hard to kill as well. but yet people didnt flock to them. there were plenty of soft combat templates that people played. they didnt care about being the best. they took up supplemental healing skills under the medic tree or they took up additional scouting skills for extra hide / bone / meat harvesting off animals. and the beautiful part about this skill system, you could always tinker with it. you werent locked into a skill set like in city of heroes. you werent stuck with a class like warlock in world of warcraft. in star wars galaxies if you tired of being a bounty hunter you could simply drop the skills and then work on new ones in different professions. this system also offered something quite unique from today's MMO's. non-combat professions werent a secondary skill in Galaxies. If you choose to be an armorsmith you would have less skill points to put into combat professions. so guess what, crafters were really dedicated folks because they tended to not be focused on combat. sure some of them took a few skill points and put it into rifles or something but most of them spent every point in crafting, merchant skills, etc. a crafter was soley a crafter dedicated and interdependant upon other crafters for components and on combat players to buy their goods. class based games ultimately only offer gameplay for "achiever" type players. they lack exploration, open play, interdependance, and the ability to play any way you desire. hopefully one day someone will recognize the sheer brilliance that Star Wars Galaxies skill system was and copy it.
You know what's changed....the players. Back then it was all about having fun with your characters, and enjoying "living" in a virtual "world". That's how MMOs were intended to be.
Now you can't have merchant and caster classes because everyone wants to be the best. These new players can't understand the concept of playing a game and enjoying it without "winning"
But I guess that's a conversation for a completely different thread...
Ok I'm just saying, don't compare Asheron's call as a skill based game, it makes them look bad. I haven't played it, but I heard it lets you level all skills to the Max level, and that's not customization, thats jsut someone that is good at everything and that really discourages grouping. Asheron's call isn't a good example of skill based games.
This post has so many wrongs its not even funny :P
Asheron's Call is one of very few good examples of skill based system you can find.
Ok I'm just saying, don't compare Asheron's call as a skill based game, it makes them look bad. I haven't played it, but I heard it lets you level all skills to the Max level, and that's not customization, thats jsut someone that is good at everything and that really discourages grouping. Asheron's call isn't a good example of skill based games.
This post has so many wrongs its not even funny :P
Asheron's Call is one of very few good examples of skill based system you can find.
LOL no doubt!
Whomever he's been talking to obviously hasn't played Asheron's Call either.
wisesquirrel: I haven't played it, know nothing about it except heresay, but it's not a good example of a skill based game so you can't use it.
How can you argue with that logic, lmfao!
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
Wow, I read through that whole mess... not sure why some people felt the need to just keep comign back to repeat their one-liner, "you're stupid and your idea is stupid," sort of responses. Pretty sure we picked up your sentiment after your first post on, like, page two.
I think that individual had trouble differentiating classes and roles. I see "class" as a term coming from like social "class systems" being something you're born into (character is created into) and which they can never escape from. You're blue collar you'll always be blue collar... I don't care if your talent tree is spec'd for plumber, sprinkler fitter, or construction worker... you're stuck with it. On the other hand "role" is more akin to your chosen task... something that is maliable... tank or off-tank is one we see people moving between. I would call "healer" a role... while Priest/Shaman/Druid are classes that fill that role.
In a classless system there would be people choosing to fill ROLES, not people making CLASSES, by my definition.
Some people will certainly choose to recreate the "trinity" roles: Tank, Healer, and DPS. But others will choose middle of the road builds to off-heal, or off-tank, and other game place focuses they prefer. Including some who may avoid combat roles all together if givent he option. Overall, I would say that those people most interested in grouping would be likely to recreate the trinity roles, while those who solo would be likely to build characters who are durable and do at least decent DPS... possible with some weak self-healing or medic skills to patch themselves up between fights.
Yes, stats-based leveling has more risk of people "gimping" their toon, which can be addressed by having good tutorials or an official site hosted set of resources... a wiki or e-guides. Couple that with options for resetting stats with either a cool down... or some other requirement... to avoid abuse of that option. That way if someone HAS brutally gimped themselves they can fix it. Perhaps say... once a day you can hit minus on a skill point to free up that point and put it elsewhere, if you have made a BIG boo-boo and want to redo it all (now-now-now I dun wanna wait); have them pay a $2.50 micro transaction to reset all their points for that character. Mistake fixed (or they can do one a day and never pay a dime for their stupidity).
There are ways to inhibit people from trying to be "everything at once", others have mentioned having caps... which is a perfectly reasonable restriction. Others have suggested some +atributes having a corresponding negative effect to other attributes, also reasonable, although I prefer the carrot to the stick. Example... if anyone can learn to wear any kind of armor, have the heavy armor not have much magic resistance and next to no boosts to caster stats, while the light armor has magic resistance and good stats. A tank won't want that light armor other than one or two pieces to help against magic... and a caster won't want full plate gear is he's still going to get flattened when hit with ranged magic.
Two casters going into PvP on each other... one in light armor and one in heavy... if they've stacked their personal attributes equivalantly then the one who has chosen gear suited to his/her role will be able to pound the "battle mage" using ranged attacks before rattle-pants can reach them.
One "stick" trait I think of is if the types of gear Light, Med, Heavy also had an effect on your aggro range... meaning that heavier stuff is "noisier" (rattle-rattle). You could keep "rogue"-types out of mail and plate armor that way because that shit is too noisy and messes with their stealth abilities. This makes medium and light gear more appealing. Will some idiot wear it anyway? Sure. Might not matter as much in a crowded PVP situation like a "surge" battle front.
One thing that comes to mind to me about skills... like spells learned and the like... would be to have only so many slots on your interface for spells, these are the ones your toon can "cast from memory" and once in-combat you cannot open your spell book or change what is equipped to your toon's hands. You're too "busy" fighting to grab your book or search your bag for another weapon. This way, even if you've got a TON of spells or fighting-moves you've added to your repetoire, you're having to make choices about what to have available... sort of like slotting skills in Guild Wars. Even just 1-0 plus Shift 1-0 gives a player 20 key-bound slots to use. That should be ample.
These are just tweaks to nudge people toward "roles", they do not create "classes", because there isn't flat out pidgeon-holing of the characters from point of creation only encouragement toward roles for those that may gimp themselves. Community habits of forcing cookie cutter builds on people cannot be avoided so long as there is ANY customization to characters. Class-based or stats-based, some douche will always try to tell you how to play your game. Some guilds will demand people in a stats game respec to fit a needed role, I'm sure, but it is the individual player's choice to play with that guild or not. The presence ot those jerks doesn't negate the validity of stats-based games any more than they invalidate class games with talent trees for their behaviour.
Wow, I read through that whole mess... not sure why some people felt the need to just keep comign back to repeat their one-liner, "you're stupid and your idea is stupid," sort of responses. Pretty sure we picked up your sentiment after your first post on, like, page two.
I think that individual had trouble differentiating classes and roles. I see "class" as a term coming from like social "class systems" being something you're born into (character is created into) and which they can never escape from. You're blue collar you'll always be blue collar... I don't care if your talent tree is spec'd for plumber, sprinkler fitter, or construction worker... you're stuck with it. On the other hand "role" is more akin to your chosen task... something that is maliable... tank or off-tank is one we see. I would call "healer" a role... while Priest/Shama/Druid are classes that fill that role.
In a classless system there would be people choosing to fill ROLES, not people making CLASSES, by my definition.
Some people will certainly choose to recreate the "trinity" roles: Tank, Healer, and DPS. But others will choose middle of the road builds to off-heal, or off-tank, and other game place focuses they prefer. Including some who may avoid combat roles all together if givent he option. Overall, I would say that those people most interested in grouping would be likely to recreate the trinity roles, while those who solo would be likely to build characters who are durable and do at least decent DPS... possible with some weak self-healing or medic skills.
Yes, stats-based leveling has more risk of people "gimping" their toon, which can be addressed by having good tutorials or an official site hosted set of resources... a wiki or e-guides. Couple that with options for resetting stats with either a cool down... or some other requirement... to avoid abuse of that option, so if someone HAS brutally gimped themselves they can fix it. Perhaps say... once a day you can hit minus on a skill point to free up that point and put it elsewhere, if you have made a BIG boo-boo and want to redo it all now-now-now; have them pay a $2.50 micro transaction to reset all their points for that character. Mistake fixed (or they can do one a day and never pay a dime for their stupidity).
There are ways to inhibit people from trying to be "everything at once", others have mentioned having caps... which is a perfectly reasonable restriction. Others have suggested some +atributes having a corresponding negative effect to other attributes, also reasonable, although I prefer the carrot to the stick. Example... if anyone can learn to wear any kind of armor, have the heavy armor not have much magic resistance and next to no boosts to caster stats, while the light armor has magic resistance and good stats. A tank won't want that light armor other than one or two pieces to help against magic... and a caster won't want full plate gear is he's still going to get flattened when hit with ranged magic. Two casters going into PvP on each other... one in light armor and one in heavy... if they've stacked their personal attributes equivalantly then the one who has chosen gear suited to his/her role will be able to pound the "battle mage" using ranged attacks before rattle-pants can reach them. One "stick" trait I think of is if the types of gear Light, Med, Heavy also had an effect on your aggro range... meaning that heavier stuff is "noisier" (rattle-rattle). You could keep "rogue"-types out of mail and plate armor that way because that shit is too noisy and messes with their stealth abilities. This makes medium and light gear more appealing. Will some idiot wear it anyway? Sure. Might not matter as much in a crowded PVP situation like a "surge" battle front.
These are just tweaks to nudge people toward "roles", this does not create "classes", because there isn't flat out pidgeon-holing of the characters from point of creation. Community habits of forcing cookie cutter builds on people cannot be avoided so long as there is ANY customization to characters. Class-based or stats-based, some douche will always try to tell you how to play your game. Some guilds will demand people in a stats game respec to fit a needed role, I'm sure, but it is the individual player's choice to play with that guild or not. The presence or those people doesn't negate the validity of stats-based games.
There's a few reasons why this just doesn't work. First, with your gear selection idea, everyone is gonna choose the same thing anyway. Because No one in game wants to be less effective than anyone else. If wearing Heavy Armor as a mage hurts your spell casting, then you won't want to wear any of it.
Secondly, and you said it yourself. Some people will choose to recreate the "Holy Trinity" roles, some people won't. Sounds great. But if I'm a Holy Trinity Healer, then I'm gonna want to party with a "Holy Trinity" Tank. Because a hybrid fighter would have less hp, less strength, and less ability to draw aggro and protect my ass. And that ultimately , means he will need more healing in less time. All the Hybrid players will be forced to group on their own, and well, thats just a mess. Parties need structure, and combat roles create that.
Thirdly, The "ultimate build syndrome" cannot be avoided. Its the main thing that drives me crazy in games. I mean seriously, how many times in a game session do you hear or read, "Whats the best build for ____ (whatever class)?" I used to hate when people would ask me that in DDO. When I would tell them they could build their character however they wanted they would just act as though I were an idiot, (as if to say DOES NOT COMPUTE). Then turn and ask people until someone gave them an answer.
Speaking of DDO, that's a great example. You can mix and match up to 3 classes in that game. But if I have my choice between a fighter/barbarian/rogue and a fighter to tank for my party, I'm gonna go for the pure fighter, if I need a Damage dealer, I'd rather have the pure barbarian, and I want a pure rogue to backstab and disarm traps instead of a gimpy one.
Comments
Have you played D&D Online? Its not like RoM where you have a primary and secondary class. You can multiclass up to three classes and you choose which class to raise every time you go to train up a level. You retain all the abilities of each class you have chosen. You could easily start as a warrior and then train as a wizard for a level, then add another level to warrior, then add a couple rogue levels. Its very flexible and doesn't really force you into any primary role at all.
Of course the downside of any game that gives that kind of flexibility is that you end up with a lot of people that try to do too much and end up sucking at everything. The same thing could happen in most skill based games as well so no big deal there.
If you haven't played DDO its worth a look, at least to check out their Builds Forum just to see what kind of characters people come up with. The game doesn't use a crappy target and attack combat either. Who knows, maybe it will turn you into a fan of class based games.
I've actually been a little disappointed with Fallen Earth's skill system. Its feeling an awful lot like a game with 6 classes. Rifle, Pistol, and Melee, then three more with the same weapon choices and a crafting focus. The mutations and factions tack on a little diversity, but no more than talent trees do in WoW or the class customization of many other games.
Were MMOs fail is at making an effective and entertaining tutorial on tips of how to build your character, be it class based or skill based.
If I were ever to design a tutorial I'd do this:
I'd make a little zelda style fairy (A Shiny Blue ball with bug wings) yell at you, "Don't even think about trying to train all the skills", "just focus on the few ones you really like or you are going to sorely FAIL" and have the fairy keep crashing against everything.
All tutorials I have seen never catch my attention, with a hilarious guide I am sure I would have paid attention.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
I checked the forums and these are just the kind of characters I am talking about, but I still prefer to do it backwards though, I guess we all think differently.
if I could just gather all these ideas, character build, interactive world and epic combat gameplay, it would be epic.
As long as its not a paperclip!
Honestly, thats part of the challenge of the MMO is to figure out on your own how to efficiently work your character's class and which are appropriate given they allow you to recover from mistakes on your build/character setup. I don't think a tutorial is necessary if not should be discouraged because then people are just going to want the developers to tell them how to play the game as well. We're not left with too many options to distinguish the good from the bad players if everyone is being told how to effectively build up their characters.
No tutorial needed, leave it up to the players to figure it out. When I play RTS's, there's no programmer leading me on with tutorials on the best strategies for a particular race/faction is or in an FPS, which weapon I should be using at a given time. Again, that's the challenge of the game and even if they did not allow you a way to fix a talent selection or a choice made, it would make each of those development choices THAT much more important. Maybe people would stop flying through the game that way and learn to take their time and consider all their actions.
It would still be best if they could at least warn you to not make a complete mistake from which you couldn't recover from.
No guides on perfect build (The community is probably going to brag about theirs and tell everyone it is the best), because even I'm lost when I start any MMO, especially if it is too different from others, if I ever make one it will probably be completely different from these lame excuses to amuse me ;p.
Or, alternatively, to allow you to make ammends on your mistake.
With ye olde UO, for example (from what I read) - you could have at maximum, about 700 skill points, and there were heaps of skills, levelupable to 100 each.
Say you have all 700 skill points used, you could then decide to train a new skill, but reduce another skill for it.
Funnily enough, the closest thing I can think of that closely relates is Pokemon Red through to Diamond, where you have four moves and must "forget" an old skill in order to learn a new one.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
I head about how everyone in DF was basically a carbon-copy of one another skill-wise.
At least with classes I'm not like everyone else.
Playing: World Of Warcraft
Resting From: Nothing
Retired: EQ2, CoH, Tabula Rasa, SWG, Warhammer, AoC
Waiting For: SWTOR, APB
Love(d): Tabula Rasa, SWG, World Of Warcraft, Age of Conan
Depends on many things, but overall it depends on how you make the skill system work, and how you balance different skills.
Adding different types of attacks and attack types adds an element to the player...
Basically, if you make the skill sets either really complex, or really simple, you would likely get a fairly varied bunch of play styles.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
Depends on many things, but overall it depends on how you make the skill system work, and how you balance different skills.
Adding different types of attacks and attack types adds an element to the player...
Basically, if you make the skill sets either really complex, or really simple, you would likely get a fairly varied bunch of play styles.
But I heard that you could level every skill as high as you wanted, so in the end, you could do anything you damn well please.
Playing: World Of Warcraft
Resting From: Nothing
Retired: EQ2, CoH, Tabula Rasa, SWG, Warhammer, AoC
Waiting For: SWTOR, APB
Love(d): Tabula Rasa, SWG, World Of Warcraft, Age of Conan
Whats the Obsession with Classless system?
My genitals were recently smashed by a plombee. Thus, I cannot properly comment on your idiotic thread. Cheers!
poopee
Indeed.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
If you mean obsession to be able to customize our character along the way, well its a bit more fun that having to choose a straight path which you can never go back again later.
You chose to be a warrior, you can't be a wizard now.
In a well made skill based system a warrior can do decent magic.
And no, no MMO so far has done a decent skill system so I wouldn't compare those with class based ones just yet..
Asheron's Call had a nice skill based system. If it came out before Everquest then we would probly be seeing more skill systems than class based.
Ok I'm just saying, don't compare Asheron's call as a skill based game, it makes them look bad.
I haven't played it, but I heard it lets you level all skills to the Max level, and that's not customization, thats jsut someone that is good at everything and that really discourages grouping.
Asheron's call isn't a good example of skill based games.
I would sign for
"Email me when the next MMORPG without classes is released"
Yes, there aren't distinct playstyles in DF and everyone's a sort of muddied hybrid. The only vaguely defined roles are that you have two main types of armor, heavy and light, with light being used by casters and heavy being used by melee/archers (because heavy armor carries casting penalties.)
It definitely weakens the presence of roles in the game. Not a crippling failure but a disappointment as roles add a lot of teamplay to multiplayer games. Teamplay isn't nonexistant in DF (there's quite a few support buffs), but it plays a weakened role in the gameplay.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Example of 2 Classes: Policeman and Fireman.
A Policeman can't do a Fireman's job.
A Fireman can't do a Policeman's job.
This thread is dumb.
Policeman has mid-life crisis and quits his job. Policeman goes to academy and trains to be a Fireman. Policeman is now a Fireman. Swap "Policeman" and "Fireman" and it's still correct.
People are not always "locked" into one state of being or occupation throughout their lives, or else many more people would still be a "Student", "Fast-Food Clerk", "Intern", "Benchwarmer", etc. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the topic of this thread, but I don't think this particular analogy works here.
Then you haven't made a meaningful decision at all. You are looking to avoid meaningful decisions and have essentially bypassed one of the fundamental tenants of gaming. Also, choosing to be a generic mish-mash of all roles has no context without having class based games to give it any meaning. Without class based gaming you wouldn't be a Mage + Theif + Warrior, instead you would just be a 'character' that, in the end, is just like everyone else. You would be playing a class based game with only one class.
I believe an applause is in order
You know what's changed....the players. Back then it was all about having fun with your characters, and enjoying "living" in a virtual "world". That's how MMOs were intended to be.
Now you can't have merchant and caster classes because everyone wants to be the best. These new players can't understand the concept of playing a game and enjoying it without "winning"
But I guess that's a conversation for a completely different thread...
This post has so many wrongs its not even funny :P
Asheron's Call is one of very few good examples of skill based system you can find.
This post has so many wrongs its not even funny :P
Asheron's Call is one of very few good examples of skill based system you can find.
LOL no doubt!
Whomever he's been talking to obviously hasn't played Asheron's Call either.
wisesquirrel: I haven't played it, know nothing about it except heresay, but it's not a good example of a skill based game so you can't use it.
How can you argue with that logic, lmfao!
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
Wow, I read through that whole mess... not sure why some people felt the need to just keep comign back to repeat their one-liner, "you're stupid and your idea is stupid," sort of responses. Pretty sure we picked up your sentiment after your first post on, like, page two.
I think that individual had trouble differentiating classes and roles. I see "class" as a term coming from like social "class systems" being something you're born into (character is created into) and which they can never escape from. You're blue collar you'll always be blue collar... I don't care if your talent tree is spec'd for plumber, sprinkler fitter, or construction worker... you're stuck with it. On the other hand "role" is more akin to your chosen task... something that is maliable... tank or off-tank is one we see people moving between. I would call "healer" a role... while Priest/Shaman/Druid are classes that fill that role.
In a classless system there would be people choosing to fill ROLES, not people making CLASSES, by my definition.
Some people will certainly choose to recreate the "trinity" roles: Tank, Healer, and DPS. But others will choose middle of the road builds to off-heal, or off-tank, and other game place focuses they prefer. Including some who may avoid combat roles all together if givent he option. Overall, I would say that those people most interested in grouping would be likely to recreate the trinity roles, while those who solo would be likely to build characters who are durable and do at least decent DPS... possible with some weak self-healing or medic skills to patch themselves up between fights.
Yes, stats-based leveling has more risk of people "gimping" their toon, which can be addressed by having good tutorials or an official site hosted set of resources... a wiki or e-guides. Couple that with options for resetting stats with either a cool down... or some other requirement... to avoid abuse of that option. That way if someone HAS brutally gimped themselves they can fix it. Perhaps say... once a day you can hit minus on a skill point to free up that point and put it elsewhere, if you have made a BIG boo-boo and want to redo it all (now-now-now I dun wanna wait); have them pay a $2.50 micro transaction to reset all their points for that character. Mistake fixed (or they can do one a day and never pay a dime for their stupidity).
There are ways to inhibit people from trying to be "everything at once", others have mentioned having caps... which is a perfectly reasonable restriction. Others have suggested some +atributes having a corresponding negative effect to other attributes, also reasonable, although I prefer the carrot to the stick. Example... if anyone can learn to wear any kind of armor, have the heavy armor not have much magic resistance and next to no boosts to caster stats, while the light armor has magic resistance and good stats. A tank won't want that light armor other than one or two pieces to help against magic... and a caster won't want full plate gear is he's still going to get flattened when hit with ranged magic.
Two casters going into PvP on each other... one in light armor and one in heavy... if they've stacked their personal attributes equivalantly then the one who has chosen gear suited to his/her role will be able to pound the "battle mage" using ranged attacks before rattle-pants can reach them.
One "stick" trait I think of is if the types of gear Light, Med, Heavy also had an effect on your aggro range... meaning that heavier stuff is "noisier" (rattle-rattle). You could keep "rogue"-types out of mail and plate armor that way because that shit is too noisy and messes with their stealth abilities. This makes medium and light gear more appealing. Will some idiot wear it anyway? Sure. Might not matter as much in a crowded PVP situation like a "surge" battle front.
One thing that comes to mind to me about skills... like spells learned and the like... would be to have only so many slots on your interface for spells, these are the ones your toon can "cast from memory" and once in-combat you cannot open your spell book or change what is equipped to your toon's hands. You're too "busy" fighting to grab your book or search your bag for another weapon. This way, even if you've got a TON of spells or fighting-moves you've added to your repetoire, you're having to make choices about what to have available... sort of like slotting skills in Guild Wars. Even just 1-0 plus Shift 1-0 gives a player 20 key-bound slots to use. That should be ample.
These are just tweaks to nudge people toward "roles", they do not create "classes", because there isn't flat out pidgeon-holing of the characters from point of creation only encouragement toward roles for those that may gimp themselves. Community habits of forcing cookie cutter builds on people cannot be avoided so long as there is ANY customization to characters. Class-based or stats-based, some douche will always try to tell you how to play your game. Some guilds will demand people in a stats game respec to fit a needed role, I'm sure, but it is the individual player's choice to play with that guild or not. The presence ot those jerks doesn't negate the validity of stats-based games any more than they invalidate class games with talent trees for their behaviour.
There's a few reasons why this just doesn't work. First, with your gear selection idea, everyone is gonna choose the same thing anyway. Because No one in game wants to be less effective than anyone else. If wearing Heavy Armor as a mage hurts your spell casting, then you won't want to wear any of it.
Secondly, and you said it yourself. Some people will choose to recreate the "Holy Trinity" roles, some people won't. Sounds great. But if I'm a Holy Trinity Healer, then I'm gonna want to party with a "Holy Trinity" Tank. Because a hybrid fighter would have less hp, less strength, and less ability to draw aggro and protect my ass. And that ultimately , means he will need more healing in less time. All the Hybrid players will be forced to group on their own, and well, thats just a mess. Parties need structure, and combat roles create that.
Thirdly, The "ultimate build syndrome" cannot be avoided. Its the main thing that drives me crazy in games. I mean seriously, how many times in a game session do you hear or read, "Whats the best build for ____ (whatever class)?" I used to hate when people would ask me that in DDO. When I would tell them they could build their character however they wanted they would just act as though I were an idiot, (as if to say DOES NOT COMPUTE). Then turn and ask people until someone gave them an answer.
Speaking of DDO, that's a great example. You can mix and match up to 3 classes in that game. But if I have my choice between a fighter/barbarian/rogue and a fighter to tank for my party, I'm gonna go for the pure fighter, if I need a Damage dealer, I'd rather have the pure barbarian, and I want a pure rogue to backstab and disarm traps instead of a gimpy one.