it comes down to this: if you're not getting $10 or $12 or $15 worth of entertainment for your money, unsubscribe and use the money for something that delivers more satisfaction to you.
I'm an accounting major, so none of this is a surprise to me. If you know much about business, you'll know that some of those expenses are not necessary. While benefits, insurance, debt, depreciation, rent, supplies and etc are necessary, R&D, conference, sales, entertainment, and so on aren't.
Spoken like a true accountant.
Nope, project planning across a global company doesn't require any conferences at all. And R&D? So completely unnecessary an expense.
lol, I'll have to agree with you.
sorry nate, but that WAS spoken by a true accouuntant.
As someone who works with sales, marketing and usually the Managers, V.P.'s, etc, It is customary to take visiting employees out or in order to lure a possible employee to your company you might have an interview over lunch. Or even to thank a team for working the weekend you might treat them to dinner.
Also, Holiday Parties or birthdays parties come under entertainment or Employee Morale depending on the company.
R&D means you will be in business years down the line or better tools for your current project.
As far as your box sales argument I wonder if all and all the creation of an MMO might cost more than a stand alone game, especially when you include the teams that run them.
p.s. if you work for a large company (or even small company) I can only imagine the discussions you are going to have with the president when he has some partners visiting from overseas and he wants to expense it. Are you going to tell him that he shouldn't do that because it's unecessary?
There is waste, that is true. but it's up to your business and office managers to help curtail that waste.
edit 2, I also wonder if you might reconsider and be a business major. I know for sure that in several of my companies that had onsite accountants, none of them did anything other than account for the money and then report this to those who had the power of decision making.
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I'm an accounting major, so none of this is a surprise to me. If you know much about business, you'll know that some of those expenses are not necessary. While benefits, insurance, debt, depreciation, rent, supplies and etc are necessary, R&D, conference, sales, entertainment, and so on aren't.
Spoken like a true accountant.
Nope, project planning across a global company doesn't require any conferences at all. And R&D? So completely unnecessary an expense.
Some of this depends on how the company defines some of their expenses. I worked for a small startup that was purchased by a larger company and we had these expenses. We had R&D even though we were small. the idea is to have a pipeline of products or ways of making your current products better.
We're talking about a MMO company here, not pharmaceuticals or something. Most MMO companies are also fairly small and new, so don't have the same "additional" expenses that a large and older company may have. For instance, R&D may be necessary if you're developing and keeping up to date your own engines, software, and hardware (who does their own hardware?). After the game is released though, how large would your R&D team actually be and would it need its own account? As above, new tools, new games, etc.
Conferences? What kind of conferences is a MMO company going to have that are necessary? There are plenty of Expo's and game company get togethers that are sponsered by some other source. Funding needs provided for these things, but how much really does all of that cost? Okay, I get it, a global company does incur expenses that a local company won't, but a small MMO company, just starting out shouldn't be worried about this right now. Large companies that should worry about this, should also be producing games that are AAA in quality, thus doesn't really pertain to my post, since they should be priced roughly the same.
conferences is broader than that. If a V.P. or someone in Marketing wants to go to an industry conference there will be internal expenses associated with that. Part of this could also go under Travel. But some of the bills could go under conferences to defer the cost away from other types travel expenses for example, to other offices or food and hotel expenses that are not conference related. There are conferences for training as well besides industry conferences. Also, if they bring materials or sets or anything to a conference the company might lump that with conferences.
So yes, I have thought about all of these things, and if I was the CEO of a MMO company, I'd get my foot in the door of this genre by producing a well made, albeit smaller and less graphically significant, MMO. I'd sell the game for a low cost up front, and have the subscription fee lower than the big dogs. I'd be affordable enough so that those dedicated to the big dogs would feel safe enough to try my game out, and even subscribe to it alongside the big dogs in the genre.
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The standard has been 15$ a month since UO, I have no clue what it was you were playing that pitched for less. In fact, the first game I remember going for less was FFXI, and that changed depending on how many alts you had.
You are wrong. I played UO for 4 years (2000 - 2004) and it was 10$ a month, later raised to about 13$ a month. In fact, I never played UO when it was 15$ a month. I noticed you said it was 15$ in 98, I didn't play during that time but I can assure you in 2000 it was only 10$. this is all in the USA btw, I'm not sure if UO was in any other coutry so maybe that is what you were referring too.
For instance, R&D may be necessary if you're developing and keeping up to date your own engines, software, and hardware (who does their own hardware?). Or keeping up with industry standard hardware or expanding and adapting the latest social media and community content for your site, or unifying systems between your existing project and your upcoming one (you do have a second product in the wings, right?). An MMO isn't 'done' when you release it. It's an evolving project that grows with the changes in technology and how your players play your game.
After the game is released though, how large would your R&D team actually be and would it need its own account? You're an accounting major asking if R&D should have its own line item?
I agree keeping up to date on hardware and software systems is important. NcSoft's R&D total is 25% of their salary total. That's a huge figure. I can see Intel's or Apple's R&D budget being that high, but a software company?
For instance, R&D may be necessary if you're developing and keeping up to date your own engines, software, and hardware (who does their own hardware?). Or keeping up with industry standard hardware or expanding and adapting the latest social media and community content for your site, or unifying systems between your existing project and your upcoming one (you do have a second product in the wings, right?). An MMO isn't 'done' when you release it. It's an evolving project that grows with the changes in technology and how your players play your game.
After the game is released though, how large would your R&D team actually be and would it need its own account? You're an accounting major asking if R&D should have its own line item?
I agree keeping up to date on hardware and software systems is important. NcSoft's R&D total is 25% of their salary total. That's a huge figure. I can see Intel's or Apple's R&D budget being that high, but a software company?
Well remember that's a very small snippet of part of one of their Quarterly reports. To really get a clear picture of their expenses and income one really should take a look at the entire report.
I included the numbers because it felt somewhat odd not to.
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I'm not really familiar with the value of the dollar now as opposed to 10 years ago, but 15$ a month probably isn't as much as a raise in price as people might think.
I would personally pay $1,000/month to play the game I'm currently playing as well as all of the previous MMO's I've tried. I spend way, way more going to a pro football game or a bar when I attend. MMO companies should be charging a lot more than $15 LOL. Every single MMO that is available is worth $100/month easily , so paying $15/mo is a joke. If paying a monthly sub fee to play an online game is even a consideration you really need to stop playing them and find a new hobby.
The current free month that you get after purchasing most MMOs is good enough for me. Glad to pay after that, tbh, although I do wish the prices were as cheap as they used to be... I remember EQ being between $10 and $12 / month... same with DAoC, until the raised it, as the OP says. I am, though, glad that FFXI is the only game so far that has tried the [base subscription fee + $x / alternate character] formula. That's just rediculous. At least you can play any and all classes on one character in that game...
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I believe if the industry is going to move forward and make the money they love and be profitable its time for a sub fee hike to 20$ a month however if they do such a thing no more of this trading card games for loots or cash shops everything must be available to players in game and can be earned.
Here's how I would do an example of a future approach to sub fees and cash shops
Tiers of Subscription Game Or F2P
Platinum Level- 20$ Monthly- No strings attached , No Cash Shops , Open Content To Everyone, All Items Earned In Game, No Trading Card Loot Pyramid Schemes, Normal Progression Of Toons Allowed, Free Transfers, Max Toon Slots Allowed, Free Name Race Sex Changes.
Silver - Free To Play, Cash Shops Allowed, Trading Card Loot Pyramid Schemes Allowed , Pay For Content Allowed, Pay For Levels, Pay For Gold. Casuals And People That Want to Play This Version Play Away It Pays For Platinum Content Development And It Allows Content To Be Opted Out On
In a way I think this would be a reasonable way to go considering there are players out there that just want to get to the end and move on the silver package would be for them and if they didnt like certain content they dont have to pay for it, you don't like to craft? dont pay for the crafter profession. Essentially both are the same thing and gives the people that want to play Platinum the game they always wanted to play with the F2P profits earned thru all the MTs its a win win for both parties tbh.
I keep reading this thread, and I wonder why. I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall.
How many times have I said in my thread that this isn't whether or not $15/mo is a lot of money or not? Yet people keep replying with comments relating to whether or not it's a lot of money. It really makes me wonder if anyone has any brains at all.
How many times have I said that the thread isn't about whether or not a game should charge a subscription fee? Yet people still reply with posts trying to prove that they should have subscriptions. Well duh, of course a game with continuous costs need continuous income.
The bottom line people, and I hope it sinks in this time, is that all games aren't created equal, yet they are equally the same price per month. Name 5 other products in the world that's EXACTLY the same price as their competitors? Video games, some movies, music, books...anything else? Even then, their prices vary after a while. Better yet, let's look at monthly fee based stuff, since that's a better comparison. Does Blockbuster Online charge the exact same price as Netflix? Does cable cost the exact same as satellite TV? What about cell phone service or phone service to your house? What about trash and utilities where you have choices? My point is that while a subscription is justified, the amount chosen is based on industry standard, not on something that makes more sense. One cell phone company may offer similar service and charge similar prices, but they aren't exactly the same. Some price theirs lower than others, while some try to justify the cost of their plans and keep the price the same.
There's a difference between choosing one game over another due to personal preference and choosing one game over another due to technical issues, quality, a lack of service, and/or a lack of features. What I'm getting from this thread, is that games that fit in the loosing end of the latter category, should not alter their subscription prices, because you all think they deserve that money, no matter what. Well if that's the case, then I guess I "deserve" to make $15/mo at least if I decide to develop a MMO and release it, no matter how buggy, how little features, how graphically inferior, and how little service I offer when compared to the competitors.
I know, some people think that the market will weed these games out. Well, have they? No, developers just let games limp along. How many games have actually closed down? How do they compare to games that most here would think should be closed down?
The bottom line people, and I hope it sinks in this time, is that all games aren't created equal, yet they are equally the same price per month. Name 5 other products in the world that's EXACTLY the same price as their competitors? Video games, some movies, music, books...anything else?
Originally posted by nate1980 Now what we have is players accustomed to paying a monthly fee, and $15/mo at that. Is this reasonable?
<massive blather snipped>
Do people pay it? I believe some number of them do. Therefore it is reasonable.
I see this a lot. People have some idea that a price has to be "fair" according to some criteria they make up. Prices are fair if people are willing to pay them (and have a choice not to). Period. Things are worth what someone is willing to spend.
Now what we have is players accustomed to paying a monthly fee, and $15/mo at that. Is this reasonable?
Yes. 50 cents a day is very reasonable. Box price gets you 30 days of play time which is at least double what you would get out of a single player game at the same expense. A lot of single games you can beat in a week. So yeah $3.75 for a week of game play is very reasonable when you could be spending $50 or $60 bucks a week on single player games.
Hasn't pretty much everything in life went up in price due to inflation in the past 10 years?
Game subscriptions aren't the only things that have gone up in price. Why should they be the only ones to stay the same?
Also @ mmoluva
Not everyone has that much money.
I agree that 15$ isn't really much, as you'd easily spend more on a night out. There is no way I'd pay $100 a month.
Sure, there are plenty of gamers that spend more a month on item mall games. But if all games were so expensive, the population would be very low and they would surely fail.
You know, when i was a kid I could get a 5 pack of wrigley's for 5 cents. 30 years later i pay 35 cents for the same product. Games went from 9, 12, 15 and they are going to go higher. MMO's especially now that the market has exploaded and all those "C" average business execs believe they found Cortez's lost gold. To me the price is worth the product. WoW i think could be more expensive. WAR deserves to be FTP. They are the same price. However, i would feel ripped off to pay 14.99 for WAR. Its really a matter of perspective and gives weight to the saying gamers use "vote with your checkbook".
Here, I'll make an off the wall prediction, the 14.99 price point won't stand much longer, and either SWTOR or perhaps Blizzards next new MMO will break it by moving up to 16.99 or more.
The current price point is strongly influenced by the price of WOW. As it goes, so goes much of the market in the past 5 years.
Here in Florida Walt Disney World is the market leader, they raise their prices every year and Busch Gardens and other Florida attactions increase their prices to match. (but never exceed)
Once someone like Blizzard or Bioware breaks the barrier, every new game after it will match.
Doesn't matter if its fair, it is just what the market will be willing to bear.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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There's a difference between choosing one game over another due to personal preference and choosing one game over another due to technical issues, quality, a lack of service, and/or a lack of features. What I'm getting from this thread, is that games that fit in the loosing end of the latter category, should not alter their subscription prices, because you all think they deserve that money, no matter what. Well if that's the case, then I guess I "deserve" to make $15/mo at least if I decide to develop a MMO and release it, no matter how buggy, how little features, how graphically inferior, and how little service I offer when compared to the competitors. I know, some people think that the market will weed these games out. Well, have they? No, developers just let games limp along. How many games have actually closed down? How do they compare to games that most here would think should be closed down?
What point do you consider limping? It's hard to say when there's a gorilla sitting in the room--and I think we all know what MMO that is ;-) When I was working for Warhammer Alliance (before and after WAR's release), everyone thought it would be a "WoW Killer." People bought into the hype, and the game sold 750k games. Last I checked, they have about 200k subscriptions. Compared to its release, that would definitely be "limping." Compared to WoW, the same. However, when thinking about it without comparison, would you consider 200k limping?
Also, personally--although I'm not in accounting, but rather English--I think you deserve to charge whatever you want. People will pay what they want, and if they don't want to pay for your game, they won't--which is a prime example of how WAR went from 750k purchased to 200k subscribed ;-)
The bottom line people, and I hope it sinks in this time, is that all games aren't created equal, yet they are equally the same price per month.
And we've said that this is because of public perception. Just because YOU don't look at price points doesn't mean that others don't.
Did y9ou not read my post about the cello teacher? About perception of value?
Yes, and I was later going to comment on how your post was the only logical reason for a company to keep their subscription rates the same, even when their CEO sees that their game isn't as popular as they planned on. I'm not opposed to people disagreeing with me, but it seems people on this website will find a reason to disagree with anyone starting a thread, no matter what was said, or who said it. People just want to argue and belittle others.
Your point is true, but isn't the whole truth. I'm not saying I have the whole truth, but as a CEO, with a new game in an overly saturated market, I'd price my game just below market standard. Put another way, picture yourself selling an item on the auction house. Say the item you're about to sell is similar to others selling for 5g, and there are 20 of them on the AH. Do you sell yours for 5g, or would you sell it for just under that? Another example: You're shopping for a new computer. One is $1,200, and the other is $1,100. Both are roughly the same specs. Which one would you buy? This is very common sense stuff for me, yet everyone seems to completely miss the point.
The only reason most games have a common price is competition. But eventually inflation will force companies to raise that rate up from $15. It's amazing that the price has remained so stable for so long.
OK, yes. $15 a month for any of them is reasonable. That's dirt cheap, and I say that because it's not worth the paperwork necessary to do it for less, and least, not these days. Someone suggested $5 a month? Might as well go F2P and have an RMT. The thing is, if people are paying a monthly fee, any monthly fee, then they expect something for their money other than what buying the box got them. So, the company has to give them something for their monthly fee. That's why $15 is a fair minimum. Personally, I'm amazed they can make money at even that price.
Put another way, picture yourself selling an item on the auction house. Say the item you're about to sell is similar to others selling for 5g, and there are 20 of them on the AH. Do you sell yours for 5g, or would you sell it for just under that? Another example: You're shopping for a new computer. One is $1,200, and the other is $1,100. Both are roughly the same specs. Which one would you buy? You are comparing necessity (or perception of one) with entertainment. People shop for best value for the items they feel they need. When it comes to leisure or entertainment, people place convenience and expedient delivery a higher priority over price.
"Name 5 other products in the world that's EXACTLY the same price as their competitors? Video games, some movies, music, books...anything else?" - Nate1980
When people look to spend their money on those, most of them will go to the most convenient location or the place with the widest selection. The price is often low priority for low dollar entertainment.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
When people look to spend their money on those, most of them will go to the most convenient location or the place with the widest selection. The price is often low priority for low dollar entertainment.
Maybe you don't compare prices. I do. Why do you think Amazon got so popular? It was cheaper than local bookstores. People download music via torrents of questionable quality rather than buying the CD with a known good quality. I wait for movies to come onto DVD then rent them rather than pay theater prices.
I'm not opposed to people disagreeing with me, but it seems people on this website will find a reason to disagree with anyone starting a thread, no matter what was said, or who said it. People just want to argue and belittle others.- Well of course they do, what was your purpose in starting the thread if not to discuss and debate the OP with the folks here. Welcome to forum PVP.
Put another way, picture yourself selling an item on the auction house. Say the item you're about to sell is similar to others selling for 5g, and there are 20 of them on the AH. Do you sell yours for 5g, or would you sell it for just under that? Great example. In Aion a very common phenomenon on the auction house is that many items hit a "floor" that the players are willing to accept and you will see a half dozen or more listings at the same price by different players, none who will go below it, as they realize there's no value in the -1 strategy. Same thing in effect with MMO's, sellers of smaller games need as much revenue as possible and doubt people will subscribe to their game over another for the sake of 2 bucks a month. Another example: You're shopping for a new computer. One is $1,200, and the other is $1,100. Both are roughly the same specs. Which one would you buy? This is very common sense stuff for me, yet everyone seems to completely miss the point. In this example you fail to take into account the effects of brand name, advertising, overall style and even if the specs are 100% identical, (they never are, in computers and certainly not in MMO's) and I most certainly would pay 100 bucks more for a Toshiba laptop vs an HP because I have a perception of higher quality with the former mfg and in the terms of a 1200 computer, 100 bucks isn't worth the difference.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Comments
it comes down to this: if you're not getting $10 or $12 or $15 worth of entertainment for your money, unsubscribe and use the money for something that delivers more satisfaction to you.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Spoken like a true accountant.
Nope, project planning across a global company doesn't require any conferences at all. And R&D? So completely unnecessary an expense.
lol, I'll have to agree with you.
sorry nate, but that WAS spoken by a true accouuntant.
As someone who works with sales, marketing and usually the Managers, V.P.'s, etc, It is customary to take visiting employees out or in order to lure a possible employee to your company you might have an interview over lunch. Or even to thank a team for working the weekend you might treat them to dinner.
Also, Holiday Parties or birthdays parties come under entertainment or Employee Morale depending on the company.
R&D means you will be in business years down the line or better tools for your current project.
As far as your box sales argument I wonder if all and all the creation of an MMO might cost more than a stand alone game, especially when you include the teams that run them.
p.s. if you work for a large company (or even small company) I can only imagine the discussions you are going to have with the president when he has some partners visiting from overseas and he wants to expense it. Are you going to tell him that he shouldn't do that because it's unecessary?
There is waste, that is true. but it's up to your business and office managers to help curtail that waste.
edit 2, I also wonder if you might reconsider and be a business major. I know for sure that in several of my companies that had onsite accountants, none of them did anything other than account for the money and then report this to those who had the power of decision making.
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Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Spoken like a true accountant.
Nope, project planning across a global company doesn't require any conferences at all. And R&D? So completely unnecessary an expense.
Some of this depends on how the company defines some of their expenses. I worked for a small startup that was purchased by a larger company and we had these expenses. We had R&D even though we were small. the idea is to have a pipeline of products or ways of making your current products better.
We're talking about a MMO company here, not pharmaceuticals or something. Most MMO companies are also fairly small and new, so don't have the same "additional" expenses that a large and older company may have. For instance, R&D may be necessary if you're developing and keeping up to date your own engines, software, and hardware (who does their own hardware?). After the game is released though, how large would your R&D team actually be and would it need its own account? As above, new tools, new games, etc.
Conferences? What kind of conferences is a MMO company going to have that are necessary? There are plenty of Expo's and game company get togethers that are sponsered by some other source. Funding needs provided for these things, but how much really does all of that cost? Okay, I get it, a global company does incur expenses that a local company won't, but a small MMO company, just starting out shouldn't be worried about this right now. Large companies that should worry about this, should also be producing games that are AAA in quality, thus doesn't really pertain to my post, since they should be priced roughly the same.
conferences is broader than that. If a V.P. or someone in Marketing wants to go to an industry conference there will be internal expenses associated with that. Part of this could also go under Travel. But some of the bills could go under conferences to defer the cost away from other types travel expenses for example, to other offices or food and hotel expenses that are not conference related. There are conferences for training as well besides industry conferences. Also, if they bring materials or sets or anything to a conference the company might lump that with conferences.
So yes, I have thought about all of these things, and if I was the CEO of a MMO company, I'd get my foot in the door of this genre by producing a well made, albeit smaller and less graphically significant, MMO. I'd sell the game for a low cost up front, and have the subscription fee lower than the big dogs. I'd be affordable enough so that those dedicated to the big dogs would feel safe enough to try my game out, and even subscribe to it alongside the big dogs in the genre.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You are wrong. I played UO for 4 years (2000 - 2004) and it was 10$ a month, later raised to about 13$ a month. In fact, I never played UO when it was 15$ a month. I noticed you said it was 15$ in 98, I didn't play during that time but I can assure you in 2000 it was only 10$. this is all in the USA btw, I'm not sure if UO was in any other coutry so maybe that is what you were referring too.
I agree keeping up to date on hardware and software systems is important. NcSoft's R&D total is 25% of their salary total. That's a huge figure. I can see Intel's or Apple's R&D budget being that high, but a software company?
I agree keeping up to date on hardware and software systems is important. NcSoft's R&D total is 25% of their salary total. That's a huge figure. I can see Intel's or Apple's R&D budget being that high, but a software company?
Well remember that's a very small snippet of part of one of their Quarterly reports. To really get a clear picture of their expenses and income one really should take a look at the entire report.
I included the numbers because it felt somewhat odd not to.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'm not really familiar with the value of the dollar now as opposed to 10 years ago, but 15$ a month probably isn't as much as a raise in price as people might think.
I would personally pay $1,000/month to play the game I'm currently playing as well as all of the previous MMO's I've tried. I spend way, way more going to a pro football game or a bar when I attend. MMO companies should be charging a lot more than $15 LOL. Every single MMO that is available is worth $100/month easily , so paying $15/mo is a joke. If paying a monthly sub fee to play an online game is even a consideration you really need to stop playing them and find a new hobby.
The current free month that you get after purchasing most MMOs is good enough for me. Glad to pay after that, tbh, although I do wish the prices were as cheap as they used to be... I remember EQ being between $10 and $12 / month... same with DAoC, until the raised it, as the OP says. I am, though, glad that FFXI is the only game so far that has tried the [base subscription fee + $x / alternate character] formula. That's just rediculous. At least you can play any and all classes on one character in that game...
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http://www.angelfire.com/space/usenet/ [IGNORE THEM, THEY JUST WANT ATTENTION!]
I believe if the industry is going to move forward and make the money they love and be profitable its time for a sub fee hike to 20$ a month however if they do such a thing no more of this trading card games for loots or cash shops everything must be available to players in game and can be earned.
Here's how I would do an example of a future approach to sub fees and cash shops
Tiers of Subscription Game Or F2P
Platinum Level- 20$ Monthly- No strings attached , No Cash Shops , Open Content To Everyone, All Items Earned In Game, No Trading Card Loot Pyramid Schemes, Normal Progression Of Toons Allowed, Free Transfers, Max Toon Slots Allowed, Free Name Race Sex Changes.
Silver - Free To Play, Cash Shops Allowed, Trading Card Loot Pyramid Schemes Allowed , Pay For Content Allowed, Pay For Levels, Pay For Gold. Casuals And People That Want to Play This Version Play Away It Pays For Platinum Content Development And It Allows Content To Be Opted Out On
In a way I think this would be a reasonable way to go considering there are players out there that just want to get to the end and move on the silver package would be for them and if they didnt like certain content they dont have to pay for it, you don't like to craft? dont pay for the crafter profession. Essentially both are the same thing and gives the people that want to play Platinum the game they always wanted to play with the F2P profits earned thru all the MTs its a win win for both parties tbh.
I keep reading this thread, and I wonder why. I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall.
How many times have I said in my thread that this isn't whether or not $15/mo is a lot of money or not? Yet people keep replying with comments relating to whether or not it's a lot of money. It really makes me wonder if anyone has any brains at all.
How many times have I said that the thread isn't about whether or not a game should charge a subscription fee? Yet people still reply with posts trying to prove that they should have subscriptions. Well duh, of course a game with continuous costs need continuous income.
The bottom line people, and I hope it sinks in this time, is that all games aren't created equal, yet they are equally the same price per month. Name 5 other products in the world that's EXACTLY the same price as their competitors? Video games, some movies, music, books...anything else? Even then, their prices vary after a while. Better yet, let's look at monthly fee based stuff, since that's a better comparison. Does Blockbuster Online charge the exact same price as Netflix? Does cable cost the exact same as satellite TV? What about cell phone service or phone service to your house? What about trash and utilities where you have choices? My point is that while a subscription is justified, the amount chosen is based on industry standard, not on something that makes more sense. One cell phone company may offer similar service and charge similar prices, but they aren't exactly the same. Some price theirs lower than others, while some try to justify the cost of their plans and keep the price the same.
There's a difference between choosing one game over another due to personal preference and choosing one game over another due to technical issues, quality, a lack of service, and/or a lack of features. What I'm getting from this thread, is that games that fit in the loosing end of the latter category, should not alter their subscription prices, because you all think they deserve that money, no matter what. Well if that's the case, then I guess I "deserve" to make $15/mo at least if I decide to develop a MMO and release it, no matter how buggy, how little features, how graphically inferior, and how little service I offer when compared to the competitors.
I know, some people think that the market will weed these games out. Well, have they? No, developers just let games limp along. How many games have actually closed down? How do they compare to games that most here would think should be closed down?
Notice what all those things have in common?
Give me liberty or give me lasers
<massive blather snipped>
Do people pay it? I believe some number of them do. Therefore it is reasonable.
I see this a lot. People have some idea that a price has to be "fair" according to some criteria they make up. Prices are fair if people are willing to pay them (and have a choice not to). Period. Things are worth what someone is willing to spend.
Yes. 50 cents a day is very reasonable. Box price gets you 30 days of play time which is at least double what you would get out of a single player game at the same expense. A lot of single games you can beat in a week. So yeah $3.75 for a week of game play is very reasonable when you could be spending $50 or $60 bucks a week on single player games.
I don't see the real problem here...
Hasn't pretty much everything in life went up in price due to inflation in the past 10 years?
Game subscriptions aren't the only things that have gone up in price. Why should they be the only ones to stay the same?
Also @ mmoluva
Not everyone has that much money.
I agree that 15$ isn't really much, as you'd easily spend more on a night out. There is no way I'd pay $100 a month.
Sure, there are plenty of gamers that spend more a month on item mall games. But if all games were so expensive, the population would be very low and they would surely fail.
You know, when i was a kid I could get a 5 pack of wrigley's for 5 cents. 30 years later i pay 35 cents for the same product. Games went from 9, 12, 15 and they are going to go higher. MMO's especially now that the market has exploaded and all those "C" average business execs believe they found Cortez's lost gold. To me the price is worth the product. WoW i think could be more expensive. WAR deserves to be FTP. They are the same price. However, i would feel ripped off to pay 14.99 for WAR. Its really a matter of perspective and gives weight to the saying gamers use "vote with your checkbook".
Here, I'll make an off the wall prediction, the 14.99 price point won't stand much longer, and either SWTOR or perhaps Blizzards next new MMO will break it by moving up to 16.99 or more.
The current price point is strongly influenced by the price of WOW. As it goes, so goes much of the market in the past 5 years.
Here in Florida Walt Disney World is the market leader, they raise their prices every year and Busch Gardens and other Florida attactions increase their prices to match. (but never exceed)
Once someone like Blizzard or Bioware breaks the barrier, every new game after it will match.
Doesn't matter if its fair, it is just what the market will be willing to bear.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What point do you consider limping? It's hard to say when there's a gorilla sitting in the room--and I think we all know what MMO that is ;-) When I was working for Warhammer Alliance (before and after WAR's release), everyone thought it would be a "WoW Killer." People bought into the hype, and the game sold 750k games. Last I checked, they have about 200k subscriptions. Compared to its release, that would definitely be "limping." Compared to WoW, the same. However, when thinking about it without comparison, would you consider 200k limping?
Also, personally--although I'm not in accounting, but rather English--I think you deserve to charge whatever you want. People will pay what they want, and if they don't want to pay for your game, they won't--which is a prime example of how WAR went from 750k purchased to 200k subscribed ;-)
And we've said that this is because of public perception. Just because YOU don't look at price points doesn't mean that others don't.
Did y9ou not read my post about the cello teacher? About perception of value?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
And we've said that this is because of public perception. Just because YOU don't look at price points doesn't mean that others don't.
Did y9ou not read my post about the cello teacher? About perception of value?
Yes, and I was later going to comment on how your post was the only logical reason for a company to keep their subscription rates the same, even when their CEO sees that their game isn't as popular as they planned on. I'm not opposed to people disagreeing with me, but it seems people on this website will find a reason to disagree with anyone starting a thread, no matter what was said, or who said it. People just want to argue and belittle others.
Your point is true, but isn't the whole truth. I'm not saying I have the whole truth, but as a CEO, with a new game in an overly saturated market, I'd price my game just below market standard. Put another way, picture yourself selling an item on the auction house. Say the item you're about to sell is similar to others selling for 5g, and there are 20 of them on the AH. Do you sell yours for 5g, or would you sell it for just under that? Another example: You're shopping for a new computer. One is $1,200, and the other is $1,100. Both are roughly the same specs. Which one would you buy? This is very common sense stuff for me, yet everyone seems to completely miss the point.
The only reason most games have a common price is competition. But eventually inflation will force companies to raise that rate up from $15. It's amazing that the price has remained so stable for so long.
OK, yes. $15 a month for any of them is reasonable. That's dirt cheap, and I say that because it's not worth the paperwork necessary to do it for less, and least, not these days. Someone suggested $5 a month? Might as well go F2P and have an RMT. The thing is, if people are paying a monthly fee, any monthly fee, then they expect something for their money other than what buying the box got them. So, the company has to give them something for their monthly fee. That's why $15 is a fair minimum. Personally, I'm amazed they can make money at even that price.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Maybe you don't compare prices. I do. Why do you think Amazon got so popular? It was cheaper than local bookstores. People download music via torrents of questionable quality rather than buying the CD with a known good quality. I wait for movies to come onto DVD then rent them rather than pay theater prices.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon