Originally posted by Guillermo197 All I smell here in this last minute RADICAL decision, is Micro Transactioned Respecs / char slots! Money Money Money! All they care about. That's why Cryptic should go die in a fire. They screwed over people in Champions Online during Headstart / Launch. And now they do it YET AGAIN with Star Trek Online. Way to go Cryptic!
Dude. You have and many others have been on this and the STO forum for a long-time now. You expect this to be a surprise knowing that Cryptic knows that the shallowness, rudimentary and adolescent nature of this game-play requires a 'milking' mechanism of what few subscribers they do get?
Comon, dont be so shocked. Many of us will be laughing at the geniuses that bought a life-time for something so pre-historic. Those folks have done nothing but embarass themselves and contribute to the ever de-evolution of the mmo/mmorpg genre.
For those that know the are close to my age oO the song is American pie For those way to young to know the song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZhhj9-glyY You may know Weird Al's version. A long, long time ago...
I can still remember
How that STO used to make me smile.
And I knew if I had my chance
That I could make those Klingons dance
And, maybe, I'd be happy for a while.
But february made me shiver
With every interview they did deliver.
Bad news on the doorstep;
I couldnt take one more step.
I cant remember if I cried
When I read about my Orion bride,
But something touched me deep inside
The day that STO died.
So bye-bye, you STO guy.
Flew my Ship to the Dev,
But there inspiration was dry.
And them good old Klingons were starting to cry
Singin, "thisll be the day that STO dies.
"thisll be the day that STO dies."
Did you want these crappy Quests,
And do you have faith in these meaningless tests,
If the Dev tells you so?
Do you believe in STO,
Can Cryptic save it's mortal soul,
And can you teach me how to level real slow?
Well, I know that youre in love with STO
`cause I saw you postin on the MMO.
You both kicked off your shoes.
Man, I dig those chicks both green and blues.
I was a lonely teenage Captain Kirk
With a pink carnation and a confident smirk,
But I knew I was out of luck
The day that STO died.
I started singin,
"My-My, this here STO guy."
Flew my ship to the devs,
But there inspiration was dry.
Them good old Klingons were starting to cry
And singin, "thisll be the day that STO dies.
"thisll be the day that STO dies."
But on topic this was predicted many times sucks that it came true but most should have known it was coming. Gotta wait to see what they do now with all this negative feedback revolving around this move.
Hopefully this go around they will accept that this is bad and will try and fix it.
Quoted for pure awesomeness. Props on the lyrics, and I actually sang it as I read it :P
On topic, this thread has given me much enlightenment on my opinion of STO and Cryptic. I'm not one to actually bash any MMO, but the two facts I see thus far in this thread is that CO is barely heard of nowadays and Paragon Studios back at NCSoft is still creating for COX. It honestly doesn't look good for Cryptic, though I still wish them the best.
EDIT: I guess the one thing I disliked after researching this a little is that they changed a significant part of the game AFTER they offered their lifetime subscriptions. I hope refunds are available.
Originally posted by GrayGhost79 The problem is Cryptic has a nice little feature for this and it is the reason they did it. Item Mall! Learn to love it as it will be basically your only viable option to fix your gimped toon. The other options are spend a lifetime farming to get the funds to do so in game or re-roll your toon with your limited slots and repeat the exact same content you just did over and over until you get a template you like for your toon.
Now to address regrinding specifically. You do not want to do to much regrinding in a Cryptic game. It will not have the content needed to keep you entertained for more than a time or two through. While this does not apply to everyone it sure seemed to apply to most in CO hence the horrid sub numbers for that MMO.
I firmly believe that RMT's and monthly fees can NOT co-exist in a successful game. I could debate why I feel this way for days on end, but it boils down to RMT customers meaning more $, which leads to more design time which leads to less bang for your monthly buck.
For regrinding, I don't know how you could make regrinding "new" and exciting...nor do I think it should be. It should be a penalty of sorts. So I really don't have a big issue with how SWG handled it in the past. SWG pre-NGE had a great system IMO. Player driven, player organized, player friendly and XP scaled high when grouped with the right people. It may have amounted to simply running the same missions over and over again (Bols north), but it was a social event as much as it was a grind.
For those that know the are close to my age oO the song is American pie For those way to young to know the song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZhhj9-glyY You may know Weird Al's version. A long, long time ago...
Originally posted by GrayGhost79 The problem is Cryptic has a nice little feature for this and it is the reason they did it. Item Mall! Learn to love it as it will be basically your only viable option to fix your gimped toon. The other options are spend a lifetime farming to get the funds to do so in game or re-roll your toon with your limited slots and repeat the exact same content you just did over and over until you get a template you like for your toon.
Now to address regrinding specifically. You do not want to do to much regrinding in a Cryptic game. It will not have the content needed to keep you entertained for more than a time or two through. While this does not apply to everyone it sure seemed to apply to most in CO hence the horrid sub numbers for that MMO.
I firmly believe that RMT's and monthly fees can NOT co-exist in a successful game. I could debate why I feel this way for days on end, but it boils down to RMT customers meaning more $, which leads to more design time which leads to less bang for your monthly buck.
For regrinding, I don't know how you could make regrinding "new" and exciting...nor do I think it should be. It should be a penalty of sorts. So I really don't have a big issue with how SWG handled it in the past. SWG pre-NGE had a great system IMO. Player driven, player organized, player friendly and XP scaled high when grouped with the right people. It may have amounted to simply running the same missions over and over again (Bols north), but it was a social event as much as it was a grind.
I miss grind groups TBH, as boring as it sounds it really wasn't. The skill based leveling in SWG was one of the best I've experienced far superior over games like the TES series or others like it.
It also forced you to learn what skills suited your build and which skills didn't, so much better than locking you into a build and carbon copy of everyone else.
TBH I don't mind them selling the respec as much as I mind them offering it without making you regrind your build. As pointed out above a mistake should be penalized, being able to pay rl cash for one is just lame. That's just me, and my opinion of the have it now game play we keep getting spoon fed.
As far as STO goes allowing you to just pick up any skill as you progress forever is just a horrible Idea, Jack's of all trades do not belong in MMO's. I'm glad they changed it, I would hope it stays that way.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For regrinding, I don't know how you could make regrinding "new" and exciting...nor do I think it should be.
There are two good approaches to "regrinding" :
1) have more than one area for a level. For example, in Vanguard, like LoTRO, each race has a different starting area, with different quests. These are all the same level, and you could not do them all on one character. That makes it fun to start over, with new quests and new enemies. There is more content than one toon could really do.
2) create radically different characters and do the same content again. For example, in CoH, it was ok to go back and redo those same areas, now that you are 100% different (say a defender instead of a blaster). The playstyle is dramatically different, and that makes regrinding still fun.
Originally posted by karmaeso EDIT: I guess the one thing I disliked after researching this a little is that they changed a significant part of the game AFTER they offered their lifetime subscriptions. I hope refunds are available.
Perhaps Craig Zinkievich, executive producer of STO, was groomed all to well by Bill Roper.
For regrinding, I don't know how you could make regrinding "new" and exciting...nor do I think it should be. There are two good approaches to "regrinding" : 1) have more than one area for a level. For example, in Vanguard, like LoTRO, each race has a different starting area, with different quests. These are all the same level, and you could not do them all on one character. That makes it fun to start over, with new quests and new enemies. There is more content than one toon could really do. 2) create radically different characters and do the same content again. For example, in CoH, it was ok to go back and redo those same areas, now that you are 100% different (say a defender instead of a blaster). The playstyle is dramatically different, and that makes regrinding still fun. I don't think STO has either of these options.
I don't think regrinding should be fun or exciting, it should be a penalty for not having studied or attempting to understand the skills you were picking.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I miss grind groups TBH, as boring as it sounds it really wasn't. The skill based leveling in SWG was one of the best I've experienced far superior over games like the TES series or others like it.
Oh yes I miss the original SWG type game, you won't find anything like that in any modern MMO game these days. 20 man groups hunting Krayts, raiding SF faction bases, Nightsisters, Geo cave and the Janta million credit grinds. If you got tired of being a master pikeman, all it took was a couple hours to change your template to master swordsman or something.
Now it's pretty difficult to find groups in most games, even City of Heroes has dwiddled down in active groups ever since the misison architect patch. I have a hard time spending more than 10 minutes in that game these days.
For regrinding, I don't know how you could make regrinding "new" and exciting...nor do I think it should be. There are two good approaches to "regrinding" : 1) have more than one area for a level. For example, in Vanguard, like LoTRO, each race has a different starting area, with different quests. These are all the same level, and you could not do them all on one character. That makes it fun to start over, with new quests and new enemies. There is more content than one toon could really do. 2) create radically different characters and do the same content again. For example, in CoH, it was ok to go back and redo those same areas, now that you are 100% different (say a defender instead of a blaster). The playstyle is dramatically different, and that makes regrinding still fun. I don't think STO has either of these options.
I don't think regrinding should be fun or exciting, it should be a penalty for not having studied or attempting to understand the skills you were picking.
Again lol this is not something you should wish for in a Cryptic game. I can assure you that if your toon works well or better it will not do so for long lol. The combination of skill you use can go from effective to worthless in a day with Cryptic. When that happens you need to hit the forums and raise heck for days to insure a free retcon comes your way to fix there mistake.
Your toon is likely to be broken often, the sad part is that if and when it does happen it likely will not be your fault.
I miss grind groups TBH, as boring as it sounds it really wasn't. The skill based leveling in SWG was one of the best I've experienced far superior over games like the TES series or others like it. It also forced you to learn what skills suited your build and which skills didn't, so much better than locking you into a build and carbon copy of everyone else. TBH I don't mind them selling the respec as much as I mind them offering it without making you regrind your build. As pointed out above a mistake should be penalized, being able to pay rl cash for one is just lame. That's just me, and my opinion of the have it now game play we keep getting spoon fed. As far as STO goes allowing you to just pick up any skill as you progress forever is just a horrible Idea, Jack's of all trades do not belong in MMO's. I'm glad they changed it, I would hope it stays that way.
Maybe you should actually try play the game first. As you making a complete ass out of yourself. So much missinformation. It's not even funny. Not to mention that you are highly contradicting yourself.
The NO Skill CAP gives people freedom and choice! And the ability to focus on one single character and being able to try out different things.
If it promotes anything, then it's versatility and more diverse playerbase. As people aren't afraid of gimping themselves, make mistakes... as they are able to correct it.
Now, with a sudden CAP in place. The only thing it promotes is LIMITING players. Make them scared of gimping themselves and so promote Cookie Cutter Build Templates EVERYONE is going to use!
So it achieves NOTHING! Only by forcing people to reroll more characters. Wich means they have to BUY char slots. Or force them to BUY Respecs.
This whole sudden drastic change is fully motivated by GREED! Money money money for their Item Mall. Nothing more!
For regrinding, I don't know how you could make regrinding "new" and exciting...nor do I think it should be. There are two good approaches to "regrinding" : 1) have more than one area for a level. For example, in Vanguard, like LoTRO, each race has a different starting area, with different quests. These are all the same level, and you could not do them all on one character. That makes it fun to start over, with new quests and new enemies. There is more content than one toon could really do. 2) create radically different characters and do the same content again. For example, in CoH, it was ok to go back and redo those same areas, now that you are 100% different (say a defender instead of a blaster). The playstyle is dramatically different, and that makes regrinding still fun. I don't think STO has either of these options.
This is why the "suddenly limited skill points" thing is such an issue for me. Having limited toons is not a prob for me with this game, as there aren't many classes. Unlimited SP would have given me the means to have some flexibility in my gameplay without having to repeat old content. Now they're gonna limit skill points, so now I have to repeat all the content, and then they'll make me pay for more character slots just so I can repeat that content and have that flexibility?
The original system seemed to be set up compensate for technical limitations. Now it seems like they're chucking the system, and using the technical limitations of their own game to make more money. That doesn't sit right with me.
For regrinding, I don't know how you could make regrinding "new" and exciting...nor do I think it should be. There are two good approaches to "regrinding" : 1) have more than one area for a level. For example, in Vanguard, like LoTRO, each race has a different starting area, with different quests. These are all the same level, and you could not do them all on one character. That makes it fun to start over, with new quests and new enemies. There is more content than one toon could really do. 2) create radically different characters and do the same content again. For example, in CoH, it was ok to go back and redo those same areas, now that you are 100% different (say a defender instead of a blaster). The playstyle is dramatically different, and that makes regrinding still fun. I don't think STO has either of these options.
This is why the "suddenly limited skill points" thing is such an issue for me. Having limited toons is not a prob for me with this game, as there aren't many classes. Unlimited SP would have given me the means to have some flexibility in my gameplay without having to repeat old content. Now they're gonna limit skill points, so now I have to repeat all the content, and then they'll make me pay for more character slots just so I can repeat that content and have that flexibility?
The original system seemed to be set up compensate for technical limitations. Now it seems like they're chucking the system, and using the technical limitations of their own game to make more money. That doesn't sit right with me.
Exactly,
This is Champions Online all over again. And a lot of people are going to cancel over this!
So in the end, Cryptic is only going to slam the nail on their game's coffin faster. Just like they did with CO.
For regrinding, I don't know how you could make regrinding "new" and exciting...nor do I think it should be. There are two good approaches to "regrinding" : 1) have more than one area for a level. For example, in Vanguard, like LoTRO, each race has a different starting area, with different quests. These are all the same level, and you could not do them all on one character. That makes it fun to start over, with new quests and new enemies. There is more content than one toon could really do. 2) create radically different characters and do the same content again. For example, in CoH, it was ok to go back and redo those same areas, now that you are 100% different (say a defender instead of a blaster). The playstyle is dramatically different, and that makes regrinding still fun. I don't think STO has either of these options.
Absolutely not to #1!!! You wanna try something else? Fine. Start a new toon. But to be able to drop some skill and get granted new content for your new path sucks IMO. That encourages changing (read your reply to cement this fact :P ). Regrinding doesn't. Regrinding on crap quests is the penalty you get for changing your mind...not new content.
I love when people have the freedom to change their set-up...I think it should be an "at-will" option in ANY MMO as boredom is only alternative.
Giving new quests though...no. Ability to repeat already completed quests for XP again? Absolutely!!!
As far as STO goes allowing you to just pick up any skill as you progress forever is just a horrible Idea, Jack's of all trades do not belong in MMO's. I'm glad they changed it, I would hope it stays that way.
That's not what people are asking for. Nobody is saying that we should be able to train X skill to infinite levels. People are asking(and were told they'd be getting) a system in which they could train all trainable skills to max if they played long enough. That way, if they trained a skill up that doesn't work for their strategy, they could just train up another skill that does. Now, if you train something up that you don't use, you've wasted the points and you're screwed.
SWG could use "limited skill" mechanics because you could delete certain skills and it free up those points to be used elsewhere; you weren't stuck with a skill you never used. STO, it sounds like, they're gonna go to a paid respec like they did with CO.
I miss grind groups TBH, as boring as it sounds it really wasn't. The skill based leveling in SWG was one of the best I've experienced far superior over games like the TES series or others like it. It also forced you to learn what skills suited your build and which skills didn't, so much better than locking you into a build and carbon copy of everyone else. TBH I don't mind them selling the respec as much as I mind them offering it without making you regrind your build. As pointed out above a mistake should be penalized, being able to pay rl cash for one is just lame. That's just me, and my opinion of the have it now game play we keep getting spoon fed. As far as STO goes allowing you to just pick up any skill as you progress forever is just a horrible Idea, Jack's of all trades do not belong in MMO's. I'm glad they changed it, I would hope it stays that way.
Maybe you should actually try play the game first. As you making a complete ass out of yourself. So much missinformation. It's not even funny. Not to mention that you are highly contradicting yourself.
The NO Skill CAP gives people freedom and choice! And the ability to focus on one single character and being able to try out different things.
If it promotes anything, then it's versatility and more diverse playerbase. As people aren't afraid of gimping themselves, make mistakes... as they are able to correct it.
Now, with a sudden CAP in place. The only thing it promotes is LIMITING players. Make them scared of gimping themselves and so promote Cookie Cutter Build Templates EVERYONE is going to use!
So it achieves NOTHING! Only by forcing people to reroll more characters. Wich means they have to BUY char slots. Or force them to BUY Respecs.
This whole sudden drastic change is fully motivated by GREED! Money money money for their Item Mall. Nothing more!
Cheers
How can I make an ass out of myself when describing what I prefer in the games I play?
SWG had hard caps on your skill points, it still allowed for plenty of different builds. Limiting a build in no way means it has to be cookie cutter. Offering constant respecs on the spot is what leads a skill based system into the cookie cutter builds you're complaining about, because everyone just changes until they have what is best. In a game where it takes grinding that's fine because less do it, in a game where it's instant it's not because everyone does it. Look at SWG after the CU and the constant respecs they kept giving out.
As far as it being about greed of course it is, it's also a sign of a horrible vision on the devs part.
I have played STO all through open beta, well up until a few days ago. I still think allowing endless skill points is a bad idea in the long run. If you can endlessly build skills whats to stop you from just eventually picking up everything? Is there something to stop this? If not that's just horrible game design IMO.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For regrinding, I don't know how you could make regrinding "new" and exciting...nor do I think it should be. There are two good approaches to "regrinding" : 1) have more than one area for a level. For example, in Vanguard, like LoTRO, each race has a different starting area, with different quests. These are all the same level, and you could not do them all on one character. That makes it fun to start over, with new quests and new enemies. There is more content than one toon could really do. 2) create radically different characters and do the same content again. For example, in CoH, it was ok to go back and redo those same areas, now that you are 100% different (say a defender instead of a blaster). The playstyle is dramatically different, and that makes regrinding still fun. I don't think STO has either of these options.
This is why the "suddenly limited skill points" thing is such an issue for me. Having limited toons is not a prob for me with this game, as there aren't many classes. Unlimited SP would have given me the means to have some flexibility in my gameplay without having to repeat old content. Now they're gonna limit skill points, so now I have to repeat all the content, and then they'll make me pay for more character slots just so I can repeat that content and have that flexibility?
The original system seemed to be set up compensate for technical limitations. Now it seems like they're chucking the system, and using the technical limitations of their own game to make more money. That doesn't sit right with me.
Exactly,
This is Champions Online all over again. And a lot of people are going to cancel over this!
So in the end, Cryptic is only going to slam the nail on their game's coffin faster. Just like they did with CO.
Cheers
Champions Online is still running and I don't recall them saying they'd be shutting it down anytime soon... unless I missed something?
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy: Am I, or the others crazy?" - Albert Einstein
As far as STO goes allowing you to just pick up any skill as you progress forever is just a horrible Idea, Jack's of all trades do not belong in MMO's. I'm glad they changed it, I would hope it stays that way.
. That way, if they trained a skill up that doesn't work for their strategy, they could just train up another skill that does. Now, if you train something up that you don't use, you've wasted the points and you're screwed.
That's easily fixable by allowing you to drop the skill or retrain (when you have the xp for it). There are so many ways to handle this, what I am still not clear on if there's no cap, what is to stop you from just training every skill at your disposal? How does this not lead to cookie cutter builds where everyone is the same?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For regrinding, I don't know how you could make regrinding "new" and exciting...nor do I think it should be. There are two good approaches to "regrinding" : 1) have more than one area for a level. For example, in Vanguard, like LoTRO, each race has a different starting area, with different quests. These are all the same level, and you could not do them all on one character. That makes it fun to start over, with new quests and new enemies. There is more content than one toon could really do. 2) create radically different characters and do the same content again. For example, in CoH, it was ok to go back and redo those same areas, now that you are 100% different (say a defender instead of a blaster). The playstyle is dramatically different, and that makes regrinding still fun. I don't think STO has either of these options.
Absolutely not to #1!!! You wanna try something else? Fine. Start a new toon. But to be able to drop some skill and get granted new content for your new path sucks IMO. That encourages changing (read your reply to cement this fact :P ). Regrinding doesn't. Regrinding on crap quests is the penalty you get for changing your mind...not new content.
I love when people have the freedom to change their set-up...I think it should be an "at-will" option in ANY MMO as boredom is only alternative.
Giving new quests though...no. Ability to repeat already completed quests for XP again? Absolutely!!!
I don't know what STO offers atm either.
You are talking only about re-speccing? What is wrong with dropping skill X, say, that was really good against mob Y; and then you grab skill Z that is good against mobs Z-prime. Those are somewhere else, and you can go kill those now with your new skill.
You are saying that if someone, following the extremely vague and numberless skill system, makes a mistake, you want to force them to do the exact same quests again? Why?
While I can see where the skill cap would upset certain people (not me) I think the massively article really drove home the end game for me. Its WOW in space. All the talk about end game raiding, forced 5 man groups (no npc's here) and learning the tricks of the encounters to conquer them. Not my sort of game at all, so thanks for posting this, writing this one off completely now.
This.
When I read the interview about the end-game, I was simply aghast. What the interviewee (Cryptic dev) was describing sounded so un-fun I couldn't believe my eyes. What a hideous end-game system.
For regrinding, I don't know how you could make regrinding "new" and exciting...nor do I think it should be. There are two good approaches to "regrinding" : 1) have more than one area for a level. For example, in Vanguard, like LoTRO, each race has a different starting area, with different quests. These are all the same level, and you could not do them all on one character. That makes it fun to start over, with new quests and new enemies. There is more content than one toon could really do. 2) create radically different characters and do the same content again. For example, in CoH, it was ok to go back and redo those same areas, now that you are 100% different (say a defender instead of a blaster). The playstyle is dramatically different, and that makes regrinding still fun. I don't think STO has either of these options.
This is why the "suddenly limited skill points" thing is such an issue for me. Having limited toons is not a prob for me with this game, as there aren't many classes. Unlimited SP would have given me the means to have some flexibility in my gameplay without having to repeat old content. Now they're gonna limit skill points, so now I have to repeat all the content, and then they'll make me pay for more character slots just so I can repeat that content and have that flexibility?
The original system seemed to be set up compensate for technical limitations. Now it seems like they're chucking the system, and using the technical limitations of their own game to make more money. That doesn't sit right with me.
Exactly,
This is Champions Online all over again. And a lot of people are going to cancel over this!
So in the end, Cryptic is only going to slam the nail on their game's coffin faster. Just like they did with CO.
Cheers
Champions Online is still running and I don't recall them saying they'd be shutting it down anytime soon... unless I missed something?
Your right it is still running but has the fewest subs of any MMO I know of off hand. There not even hovering around the 50k mark. I mean you can find a clunker thats still running, doesn't mean it's doing well or has a long life expectancy.
For regrinding, I don't know how you could make regrinding "new" and exciting...nor do I think it should be. There are two good approaches to "regrinding" : 1) have more than one area for a level. For example, in Vanguard, like LoTRO, each race has a different starting area, with different quests. These are all the same level, and you could not do them all on one character. That makes it fun to start over, with new quests and new enemies. There is more content than one toon could really do. 2) create radically different characters and do the same content again. For example, in CoH, it was ok to go back and redo those same areas, now that you are 100% different (say a defender instead of a blaster). The playstyle is dramatically different, and that makes regrinding still fun. I don't think STO has either of these options.
This is why the "suddenly limited skill points" thing is such an issue for me. Having limited toons is not a prob for me with this game, as there aren't many classes. Unlimited SP would have given me the means to have some flexibility in my gameplay without having to repeat old content. Now they're gonna limit skill points, so now I have to repeat all the content, and then they'll make me pay for more character slots just so I can repeat that content and have that flexibility?
The original system seemed to be set up compensate for technical limitations. Now it seems like they're chucking the system, and using the technical limitations of their own game to make more money. That doesn't sit right with me.
Exactly,
This is Champions Online all over again. And a lot of people are going to cancel over this!
So in the end, Cryptic is only going to slam the nail on their game's coffin faster. Just like they did with CO.
Cheers
Champions Online is still running and I don't recall them saying they'd be shutting it down anytime soon... unless I missed something?
Your right it is still running but has the fewest subs of any MMO I know of off hand. There not even hovering around the 50k mark. I mean you can find a clunker thats still running, doesn't mean it's doing well or has a long life expectancy.
May I ask how many subs it has?
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy: Am I, or the others crazy?" - Albert Einstein
You are talking only about re-speccing? What is wrong with dropping skill X, say, that was really good against mob Y; and then you grab skill Z that is good against mobs Z-prime. Those are somewhere else, and you can go kill those now with your new skill.
You are saying that if someone, following the extremely vague and numberless skill system, makes a mistake, you want to force them to do the exact same quests again? Why?
I think when respeccing you should have to earn the xp for the new skill you want to pick first. However you earn it is of no concern really, it's a matter of earning the respec, and not just being handed it that I have a problem with in any game.
When they do this it makes it to easy to just change when ever you feel like it. Having problems fighting that guy because of your build, just change and go back its as easy as pie now. Should this be possible or should you have to actually work at your build to improve it?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
Dude. You have and many others have been on this and the STO forum for a long-time now. You expect this to be a surprise knowing that Cryptic knows that the shallowness, rudimentary and adolescent nature of this game-play requires a 'milking' mechanism of what few subscribers they do get?
Comon, dont be so shocked. Many of us will be laughing at the geniuses that bought a life-time for something so pre-historic. Those folks have done nothing but embarass themselves and contribute to the ever de-evolution of the mmo/mmorpg genre.
Quoted for pure awesomeness. Props on the lyrics, and I actually sang it as I read it :P
On topic, this thread has given me much enlightenment on my opinion of STO and Cryptic. I'm not one to actually bash any MMO, but the two facts I see thus far in this thread is that CO is barely heard of nowadays and Paragon Studios back at NCSoft is still creating for COX. It honestly doesn't look good for Cryptic, though I still wish them the best.
EDIT: I guess the one thing I disliked after researching this a little is that they changed a significant part of the game AFTER they offered their lifetime subscriptions. I hope refunds are available.
I firmly believe that RMT's and monthly fees can NOT co-exist in a successful game. I could debate why I feel this way for days on end, but it boils down to RMT customers meaning more $, which leads to more design time which leads to less bang for your monthly buck.
For regrinding, I don't know how you could make regrinding "new" and exciting...nor do I think it should be. It should be a penalty of sorts. So I really don't have a big issue with how SWG handled it in the past. SWG pre-NGE had a great system IMO. Player driven, player organized, player friendly and XP scaled high when grouped with the right people. It may have amounted to simply running the same missions over and over again (Bols north), but it was a social event as much as it was a grind.
Please re post here
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3343343/thread/266663#3343343for awesomeness.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I firmly believe that RMT's and monthly fees can NOT co-exist in a successful game. I could debate why I feel this way for days on end, but it boils down to RMT customers meaning more $, which leads to more design time which leads to less bang for your monthly buck.
For regrinding, I don't know how you could make regrinding "new" and exciting...nor do I think it should be. It should be a penalty of sorts. So I really don't have a big issue with how SWG handled it in the past. SWG pre-NGE had a great system IMO. Player driven, player organized, player friendly and XP scaled high when grouped with the right people. It may have amounted to simply running the same missions over and over again (Bols north), but it was a social event as much as it was a grind.
I miss grind groups TBH, as boring as it sounds it really wasn't. The skill based leveling in SWG was one of the best I've experienced far superior over games like the TES series or others like it.
It also forced you to learn what skills suited your build and which skills didn't, so much better than locking you into a build and carbon copy of everyone else.
TBH I don't mind them selling the respec as much as I mind them offering it without making you regrind your build. As pointed out above a mistake should be penalized, being able to pay rl cash for one is just lame. That's just me, and my opinion of the have it now game play we keep getting spoon fed.
As far as STO goes allowing you to just pick up any skill as you progress forever is just a horrible Idea, Jack's of all trades do not belong in MMO's. I'm glad they changed it, I would hope it stays that way.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I fear of Cryptic becoming the next SOE... that'll be ugly.
For regrinding, I don't know how you could make regrinding "new" and exciting...nor do I think it should be.
There are two good approaches to "regrinding" :
1) have more than one area for a level. For example, in Vanguard, like LoTRO, each race has a different starting area, with different quests. These are all the same level, and you could not do them all on one character. That makes it fun to start over, with new quests and new enemies. There is more content than one toon could really do.
2) create radically different characters and do the same content again. For example, in CoH, it was ok to go back and redo those same areas, now that you are 100% different (say a defender instead of a blaster). The playstyle is dramatically different, and that makes regrinding still fun.
I don't think STO has either of these options.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
Perhaps Craig Zinkievich, executive producer of STO, was groomed all to well by Bill Roper.
I don't think regrinding should be fun or exciting, it should be a penalty for not having studied or attempting to understand the skills you were picking.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Now it's pretty difficult to find groups in most games, even City of Heroes has dwiddled down in active groups ever since the misison architect patch. I have a hard time spending more than 10 minutes in that game these days.
I don't think regrinding should be fun or exciting, it should be a penalty for not having studied or attempting to understand the skills you were picking.
Again lol this is not something you should wish for in a Cryptic game. I can assure you that if your toon works well or better it will not do so for long lol. The combination of skill you use can go from effective to worthless in a day with Cryptic. When that happens you need to hit the forums and raise heck for days to insure a free retcon comes your way to fix there mistake.
Your toon is likely to be broken often, the sad part is that if and when it does happen it likely will not be your fault.
I don't see anything wrong with this, clearly all of you aren't going to play the game, so why complain about it?
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy: Am I, or the others crazy?" - Albert Einstein
Maybe you should actually try play the game first. As you making a complete ass out of yourself. So much missinformation. It's not even funny. Not to mention that you are highly contradicting yourself.
The NO Skill CAP gives people freedom and choice! And the ability to focus on one single character and being able to try out different things.
If it promotes anything, then it's versatility and more diverse playerbase. As people aren't afraid of gimping themselves, make mistakes... as they are able to correct it.
Now, with a sudden CAP in place. The only thing it promotes is LIMITING players. Make them scared of gimping themselves and so promote Cookie Cutter Build Templates EVERYONE is going to use!
So it achieves NOTHING! Only by forcing people to reroll more characters. Wich means they have to BUY char slots. Or force them to BUY Respecs.
This whole sudden drastic change is fully motivated by GREED! Money money money for their Item Mall. Nothing more!
Cheers
This is why the "suddenly limited skill points" thing is such an issue for me. Having limited toons is not a prob for me with this game, as there aren't many classes. Unlimited SP would have given me the means to have some flexibility in my gameplay without having to repeat old content. Now they're gonna limit skill points, so now I have to repeat all the content, and then they'll make me pay for more character slots just so I can repeat that content and have that flexibility?
The original system seemed to be set up compensate for technical limitations. Now it seems like they're chucking the system, and using the technical limitations of their own game to make more money. That doesn't sit right with me.
This is why the "suddenly limited skill points" thing is such an issue for me. Having limited toons is not a prob for me with this game, as there aren't many classes. Unlimited SP would have given me the means to have some flexibility in my gameplay without having to repeat old content. Now they're gonna limit skill points, so now I have to repeat all the content, and then they'll make me pay for more character slots just so I can repeat that content and have that flexibility?
The original system seemed to be set up compensate for technical limitations. Now it seems like they're chucking the system, and using the technical limitations of their own game to make more money. That doesn't sit right with me.
Exactly,
This is Champions Online all over again. And a lot of people are going to cancel over this!
So in the end, Cryptic is only going to slam the nail on their game's coffin faster. Just like they did with CO.
Cheers
Absolutely not to #1!!! You wanna try something else? Fine. Start a new toon. But to be able to drop some skill and get granted new content for your new path sucks IMO. That encourages changing (read your reply to cement this fact :P ). Regrinding doesn't. Regrinding on crap quests is the penalty you get for changing your mind...not new content.
I love when people have the freedom to change their set-up...I think it should be an "at-will" option in ANY MMO as boredom is only alternative.
Giving new quests though...no. Ability to repeat already completed quests for XP again? Absolutely!!!
I don't know what STO offers atm either.
As far as STO goes allowing you to just pick up any skill as you progress forever is just a horrible Idea, Jack's of all trades do not belong in MMO's. I'm glad they changed it, I would hope it stays that way.
That's not what people are asking for. Nobody is saying that we should be able to train X skill to infinite levels. People are asking(and were told they'd be getting) a system in which they could train all trainable skills to max if they played long enough. That way, if they trained a skill up that doesn't work for their strategy, they could just train up another skill that does. Now, if you train something up that you don't use, you've wasted the points and you're screwed.
SWG could use "limited skill" mechanics because you could delete certain skills and it free up those points to be used elsewhere; you weren't stuck with a skill you never used. STO, it sounds like, they're gonna go to a paid respec like they did with CO.
Maybe you should actually try play the game first. As you making a complete ass out of yourself. So much missinformation. It's not even funny. Not to mention that you are highly contradicting yourself.
The NO Skill CAP gives people freedom and choice! And the ability to focus on one single character and being able to try out different things.
If it promotes anything, then it's versatility and more diverse playerbase. As people aren't afraid of gimping themselves, make mistakes... as they are able to correct it.
Now, with a sudden CAP in place. The only thing it promotes is LIMITING players. Make them scared of gimping themselves and so promote Cookie Cutter Build Templates EVERYONE is going to use!
So it achieves NOTHING! Only by forcing people to reroll more characters. Wich means they have to BUY char slots. Or force them to BUY Respecs.
This whole sudden drastic change is fully motivated by GREED! Money money money for their Item Mall. Nothing more!
Cheers
How can I make an ass out of myself when describing what I prefer in the games I play?
SWG had hard caps on your skill points, it still allowed for plenty of different builds. Limiting a build in no way means it has to be cookie cutter. Offering constant respecs on the spot is what leads a skill based system into the cookie cutter builds you're complaining about, because everyone just changes until they have what is best. In a game where it takes grinding that's fine because less do it, in a game where it's instant it's not because everyone does it. Look at SWG after the CU and the constant respecs they kept giving out.
As far as it being about greed of course it is, it's also a sign of a horrible vision on the devs part.
I have played STO all through open beta, well up until a few days ago. I still think allowing endless skill points is a bad idea in the long run. If you can endlessly build skills whats to stop you from just eventually picking up everything? Is there something to stop this? If not that's just horrible game design IMO.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This is why the "suddenly limited skill points" thing is such an issue for me. Having limited toons is not a prob for me with this game, as there aren't many classes. Unlimited SP would have given me the means to have some flexibility in my gameplay without having to repeat old content. Now they're gonna limit skill points, so now I have to repeat all the content, and then they'll make me pay for more character slots just so I can repeat that content and have that flexibility?
The original system seemed to be set up compensate for technical limitations. Now it seems like they're chucking the system, and using the technical limitations of their own game to make more money. That doesn't sit right with me.
Exactly,
This is Champions Online all over again. And a lot of people are going to cancel over this!
So in the end, Cryptic is only going to slam the nail on their game's coffin faster. Just like they did with CO.
Cheers
Champions Online is still running and I don't recall them saying they'd be shutting it down anytime soon... unless I missed something?
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy: Am I, or the others crazy?" - Albert Einstein
As far as STO goes allowing you to just pick up any skill as you progress forever is just a horrible Idea, Jack's of all trades do not belong in MMO's. I'm glad they changed it, I would hope it stays that way.
. That way, if they trained a skill up that doesn't work for their strategy, they could just train up another skill that does. Now, if you train something up that you don't use, you've wasted the points and you're screwed.
That's easily fixable by allowing you to drop the skill or retrain (when you have the xp for it). There are so many ways to handle this, what I am still not clear on if there's no cap, what is to stop you from just training every skill at your disposal? How does this not lead to cookie cutter builds where everyone is the same?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Absolutely not to #1!!! You wanna try something else? Fine. Start a new toon. But to be able to drop some skill and get granted new content for your new path sucks IMO. That encourages changing (read your reply to cement this fact :P ). Regrinding doesn't. Regrinding on crap quests is the penalty you get for changing your mind...not new content.
I love when people have the freedom to change their set-up...I think it should be an "at-will" option in ANY MMO as boredom is only alternative.
Giving new quests though...no. Ability to repeat already completed quests for XP again? Absolutely!!!
I don't know what STO offers atm either.
You are talking only about re-speccing? What is wrong with dropping skill X, say, that was really good against mob Y; and then you grab skill Z that is good against mobs Z-prime. Those are somewhere else, and you can go kill those now with your new skill.
You are saying that if someone, following the extremely vague and numberless skill system, makes a mistake, you want to force them to do the exact same quests again? Why?
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
This.
When I read the interview about the end-game, I was simply aghast. What the interviewee (Cryptic dev) was describing sounded so un-fun I couldn't believe my eyes. What a hideous end-game system.
This is why the "suddenly limited skill points" thing is such an issue for me. Having limited toons is not a prob for me with this game, as there aren't many classes. Unlimited SP would have given me the means to have some flexibility in my gameplay without having to repeat old content. Now they're gonna limit skill points, so now I have to repeat all the content, and then they'll make me pay for more character slots just so I can repeat that content and have that flexibility?
The original system seemed to be set up compensate for technical limitations. Now it seems like they're chucking the system, and using the technical limitations of their own game to make more money. That doesn't sit right with me.
Exactly,
This is Champions Online all over again. And a lot of people are going to cancel over this!
So in the end, Cryptic is only going to slam the nail on their game's coffin faster. Just like they did with CO.
Cheers
Champions Online is still running and I don't recall them saying they'd be shutting it down anytime soon... unless I missed something?
Your right it is still running but has the fewest subs of any MMO I know of off hand. There not even hovering around the 50k mark. I mean you can find a clunker thats still running, doesn't mean it's doing well or has a long life expectancy.
This is why the "suddenly limited skill points" thing is such an issue for me. Having limited toons is not a prob for me with this game, as there aren't many classes. Unlimited SP would have given me the means to have some flexibility in my gameplay without having to repeat old content. Now they're gonna limit skill points, so now I have to repeat all the content, and then they'll make me pay for more character slots just so I can repeat that content and have that flexibility?
The original system seemed to be set up compensate for technical limitations. Now it seems like they're chucking the system, and using the technical limitations of their own game to make more money. That doesn't sit right with me.
Exactly,
This is Champions Online all over again. And a lot of people are going to cancel over this!
So in the end, Cryptic is only going to slam the nail on their game's coffin faster. Just like they did with CO.
Cheers
Champions Online is still running and I don't recall them saying they'd be shutting it down anytime soon... unless I missed something?
Your right it is still running but has the fewest subs of any MMO I know of off hand. There not even hovering around the 50k mark. I mean you can find a clunker thats still running, doesn't mean it's doing well or has a long life expectancy.
May I ask how many subs it has?
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy: Am I, or the others crazy?" - Albert Einstein
You are talking only about re-speccing? What is wrong with dropping skill X, say, that was really good against mob Y; and then you grab skill Z that is good against mobs Z-prime. Those are somewhere else, and you can go kill those now with your new skill.
You are saying that if someone, following the extremely vague and numberless skill system, makes a mistake, you want to force them to do the exact same quests again? Why?
I think when respeccing you should have to earn the xp for the new skill you want to pick first. However you earn it is of no concern really, it's a matter of earning the respec, and not just being handed it that I have a problem with in any game.
When they do this it makes it to easy to just change when ever you feel like it. Having problems fighting that guy because of your build, just change and go back its as easy as pie now. Should this be possible or should you have to actually work at your build to improve it?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson