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I want an opinion, does anyone else see real lack of innovation and originality in new titles.
Cronjo
Member Posts: 23
I've been playing MMORPGs since 1999, I've played, UO, EQ, DAoC, WoW, DDO, Atlantica Online, and a few other titles so I feel I have a decent ground work for this. I personally don't see much that's really innovative in new titles. The majority of games that are out there now that I've tried just well feel like they took EQ , tossed on a new graphics engine, and made some changes to the various subsystems to make them fit a theme. Even WoW is guilty of this in my eyes, I picked it up played it for about a week and walked away, other than eye candy there wasn't much I hadn't seen in other games before. When is a Studio going to look at the current cookie cutter market and say, " You know that's a proven method of doing things but lets do it like this!". Sure I know it's risky, WoW has 10+ million players and is raking in hordes of money. I'm sure studios want a piece of that action, but I'm looking for people to really push the boundry of what we think of when we look at MMORPGs. I try and keep up with up coming titles and most current ones, and there are only a few that really take me by surprise on how different they are.
1) Ultima Online - It's old, it's not a graphically pleasing but no other MMO is close to it in how it's built and designed.
2) Atlantica Online - Finally a game that really rewards players for helping new players, and feels like a Console RPG.
3) SW:TOR - Yea it's not released yet, but from video I've seen it looks like they are introducing a lot of elements commonly found in FPS and Console/Offline games. Everything from alterations of missions based on player reactions, to being able to use cover as an element in Combat.
Why can't more MMO's follow those lines of thinking on "What can we do that will really make playing the game different?", how many Level and Grind type MMOs can the market really support?
Your thoughts?
Comments
I don't think this will be the case anymore, after this year. The past 5 years have been quite stagnant but I think we're going to have a change this year.
Innovation often times is much more risk than reward. This is true for any business venture as well.
ever since companies have gotten their greedy corporate fingers into the industry they are taking advantage of players foaming at the mouth of every new release selling box's rather than long term subscriptions. even a bad movie and can make money on an awesome trailer.
QFT... It doesn't make sense for a business to say ,"This is a proven method, but let's do something that hasn't been tried". Businesses are going to say, "This is a proven method, let's take that method, build upon it and see if we can make it better"
In all honesty, no. If I can't find it with the AAAs, I definitely find plenty of it with the indies.
Check out the MUD I'm making!
Not very inovative then imo when its commenly found in fps and offline games.
If i look for that kind of thing in a game id play the fps or offline game then
QFT... It doesn't make sense for a business to say ,"This is a proven method, but let's do something that hasn't been tried". Businesses are going to say, "This is a proven method, let's take that method, build upon it and see if we can make it better"
I know that's what they are doing but for the most part are they really improving things by using a better graphics engine, or are they just trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. I mean if I wanted to play EQ I'd reactivate my Sub to EQ, not pick up a new copy of WoW, where do we as end users draw the line and say "I want something different."
@ Leucrotta
When I call those things innovative I'm saying it in reference to MMORPG's not many have done this that either have gone or should have the potential to go Mainstream in the MMORPG genre.
No, not at all.
One of the most common complaints on this forum is that the genre needs to innovate more. I don't agree with this at all; I think that innovation is far less important in new MMOs than delivering a quality game experience. That's what developers need to focus on now.
People seem to be anticipating new games with the expectation that the developers should resolve everything that they don't like about the MMO genre. There's no acknowledgement that their preferences might not be shared by other players; they just want to see the perfect game that they have in their minds eye. It should be obvious to anyone that innovation is gradual.
Quite a few recent innovations have happened in the genre; the problem is that while some see them as an innovative evolution of the genre, others see them as harmful devolution. It's all about perception. A few examples lately of small but (imo) significant innovations:
AoC: Manual combat without auto-attack.
Tabula Rasa: FPS/RPG hybrid combat.
Darkfall: FPS combat.
WAR: Public Quests and Tome of Knowledge.
CO/STO: Single server architecture.
WoW: Phasing. Cross-server LFG. Class Hybridisation.
Fallen Earth: Sandbox/Themepark Hybridisation.
Some of these innovations might not be to each persons particular liking; but that doesn't detract from the fact that developers are innovating .. they're just not doing too well at providing a good solid game experience to go along with their innovations.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I don't care about groundbreaking, innovation, or originality. Those are just empty words for me. I care about a game being fun to play. I have played plenty of games that lacks those descriptions while still having a great time.
I have a feeling those that scream for those things are the MMO burnouts. Take a break from the genre instead. I mean if you have been playing since the 90's, there is a good reason why no MMO can satisfy you and it isn't lack of advancement in the genre.
Most new games always bring something innovative. If it's not in the gameplay, it's with the graphics or artwork or with the IP. MMOs don't need a complete redesign of the way this genre is played in order to be successful (or at least "good"). Same goes for any genre: RPGs, RTS, FPS, Racing, Sports... Also, few innovative MMOs were released more or less recently (City XL, Spores...)
Maybe you are only looking for a new genre?
Definitely a lot of games which copy WOW's core gameplay, which is probably not a wise move.
When I think of the future of MMORPGs I'm sort of carried away from the obsession of "innovation" though.
After all, I feel games like CoX had an astounding number of impressive innovation success (sidekicking, grouping, instance-running, and even the way combat plays out.) Yet despite all these amazing things I'm still playing WOW. This indicates that I don't care about innovation as much as I care about the myriad of other factors WOW gets right which CoX is a bit weaker on (stuff like content quantity, variety, and quality.)
Which I suppose brings me to how I've always felt about games: the best games, going forward, are the ones that take those innovative concepts (like CoX had) and polish them up in the same way WOW utterly polished the EQ formula.
So innovation plays a role in creating the greatest games, but often it's not what makes the greatest games.
We don't drive the first automobile invented -- the innovative one -- we drive modern cars that include all existing innovations and combine them in a polished product.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
QFT... It doesn't make sense for a business to say ,"This is a proven method, but let's do something that hasn't been tried". Businesses are going to say, "This is a proven method, let's take that method, build upon it and see if we can make it better"
Yes. However it seems the "proven method" is seeing more and more lackluster games that arnt catching on. Perhaps this will provide the kick in the ass the genre needs for devs to realize the proven method is not longer what the folks want.
Not true. The proven method is still what the folks want.
Bad games don't fail because they lack innovation; they fail because they're bad games.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Not true. The proven method is still what the folks want.
Bad games don't fail because they lack innovation; they fail because they're bad games.
Yes bad games fail because they are bad games. But, I see a lot of posts proclaiming games as "another wow clone" and it isnt being stated as a compliment to wow. The recent threads about the upcoming Bethesda mmo was full of posts about not wanting the wow formula used and hope for Bethesda to do what they do. My point is, people are sick of the "proven formula" which to me means the " wow formula" and want something different.
innovation wont solve the problem.
Just look at the past games.
Not true. The proven method is still what the folks want.
Bad games don't fail because they lack innovation; they fail because they're bad games.
Yes bad games fail because they are bad games. But, I see a lot of posts proclaiming games as "another wow clone" and it isnt being stated as a compliment to wow. The recent threads about the upcoming Bethesda mmo was full of posts about not wanting the wow formula used and hope for Bethesda to do what they do. My point is, people are sick of the "proven formula" which to me means the " wow formula" and want something different.
LOL. Best phrase ever.
"It is a WoW compliment game."
I get where you're coming from; whenever a new AAA developed themepark game is released, there's always a "bah, it's a WoW clone" backlash from the anti-themepark players on the forums, and the game then goes to sell 800k-1.2m copies in the west. They don't retain that level of subscription, but that's not because they're themepark games, it's because they're bad games.
Gotta remember that forums aren't representative of the playerbase at large, and that it's always a very small number (comparatively) of posters that form the vocal minority demanding "different".
The rest of us don't want "different", we just want "better".
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I agree with you that some of those are indeed innovations, but a lot of the ones you listed simply aren't. The FPS/RPG hybrid combat existed in a previous game called Endless something or at least it began with an E (sorry, I don't remember the name of the game, but it had hybrid RPG/FPS combat). FPS combat existed in Planetside, so there isn't really innovation there. Tome of Knowledge wasn't really that innovative when you consider Xbox and PS3 games had similar achievement systems (as well as Flash's Kongregate and Steam). I do think the Tome of Knowledge was an evolution of those achievement systems though. The "Sandbox"/"Themepark" (how is Fallen Earth sandbox anyway? Anyone want to explain that to me. That definition is mutitilated lately - players can't directly change the world and how the game work) hybridization existed in tons of games before it (some MMOs, some not). AoC had a few more combat innovations than just manual combat too with the whole way sprinting and double tapping in various directions worked too.
I think while most of these games do have a few innovations the core of the gameplay hasn't changed much and that's what people are mostly upset about. A game like Warhammer still essentially plays like WoW for instance (although a bit poorer quality and a larger focus on zerg style PvP - IMO).
every MMO thus far has failed in my eyes due to having the same formula of 1) grind 2) lack of persistency 3) huge disparity between new and old players 4) gear dependency and 5) terribad pvp.
luckily i have found Global Agenda, which resolves all that for me personally. im not trying to advertise the game at all (dont care if you play it or not), but it's one of the more original in the genre because it resolves the main issues i have with all other MMO's. and i dont see anything good on horizon to be honest. SWTOR looks like another WoW. STO has already failed before launching. there's the two space MMO's but theyre moving at a snail's pace and have little innovation. it's all the same garbage. EVE is slowly getting better but it wont be where i want to for another 5 years probably, and AoC is also showing some nice growth but pvp is still crap in that game.
as for innovation, i dont see any (other than GA) because it's the same old formula on the horizon. i'll be enjoying ME2, AvP3 and GA for a long time though.
edit: magnum, if you break it down, sure those are neat little snippets of what a good MMO should be. but as complete packages, all of those games are not as fun as they could be. i tried most of them, and i simply wouldnt pay to play any.
Yeah, my mistake.. I should have clarified my point.
Some of the things I mentioned have been done in other games, but my contention is that they constitute innovation on the grounds that they deviate from "the proven method" and are evidence that the MMO developers aren't all just working from a simple formulaic MMO blueprint .. they are experimenting to see what they can do, and what players enjoy.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Not true. The proven method is still what the folks want.
Bad games don't fail because they lack innovation; they fail because they're bad games.
Well it all depends on what people refer to with the vague term "proven method".
Zoomed way back, "proven method" could refer to the fundamentals of why games are fun. Those don't change. They're still what people want.
Zoomed in slightly, "proven method" could refer to the specific featureset of WOW (or any game.) If people are tired of a specific featureset, simply repeating it or even varying the theme might not be sufficient. (Well really varying the theme always works, because the themes themselves are those core, fundamental reasons things are fun...but it's a question of how much the theme needs to be varied for the fundamentals to appear new again.)
So this second "proven method" (the featureset) is no longer what people want when it comes to stamping out WOW clones. A game similar to WOW still has to be different in significant ways to trick people into enjoying the same core patterns again.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
An extreme lack of innovation from high caliber developers, yes.
Not a lack of innovation from indie companies. Unfortunately, indie games never get anywhere anymore.
In MMOs only, because it requires a big budget. It's not easy to make an MMO on a small budget that people will actually play. Indie is thriving pretty well in other genres especially with distribution programs like Steam, PSN, Xbox Live, Impulse, etc.
Which is easy. Change the combat system, change how crafting works, have a meaningful story, make quests more in-depth, and change the way character progression works, even if only slightly (from leveling classes to leveling skills/weapons/whatever). That should be enough to make the new game feel like a new experience.
But developers don't want to go even this far.
Seriously? Are you going to beat this dead horse? We've seen editorials, numerous forum posts, rants, raving tribbles and zealots crying for the death of a dev over lack of innovation. Maybe you're new to these forums but it's really an old topic people have been bitching about for ages. Unfortunetly the problem is that the DEV's want to innovate. It's the investors who don't, and you can't make a AAA title without money.
Arioc Murkwood
Environment Artist
Sad but true.