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Gap between Vets and New players
Hey guys,
This was original posted by melipone on the DF forums. Ofcourse so they have pretty much all been against the change. I was wondering if anyone that has quit could give some feedback on the reasons they quit the game.
Cheers
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/6446/statgraph.png
I made a graph. Chances are when you make a graph about a game you've crossed a threshold into pure geekdom, but I care about DF's success and feel it really needs some positive changes so we can still to be playing it in a few years time like Eve is still played now.
For that we need a steady increase of players and for the game to be fun to play on a daily basis. Better PVP but with the long term goals left intact, while encouraging new players to play and stick with it through the training process.
A quick example of what I mean (just look at the graph tho if you don't want to read): Stats/skills/spells all go up at the same speed as now, or slower depending on some factors. Possibly quicker early on.
Rather than bonus damage or health going up the same for each point of gain, you get less later on, and more sooner. So for VIT/STR, base to 50 might give 3HP for 1, 2HP for the other, rather than 2 and 1 as now. Then from 50-75 it might be 2/1 (same as now), then 75-90 1/0.5 etc, up to max.
Takes just as long to max, but variance between players is not as large and newer players can become competitive quicker and people may not want to spend as much time on grinding stuff up, but still can for an extra edge.
Same with spells, except they start off useful, but scale up quickly so at 25 its like at 75 now. If you grind the spell you can still get 99 and surges, and some extra damage in
between but it will be an edge, rather than a large advantage.
Same with skills like Weapon Masteries - 50 Mastery is like 80 Mastery now, but you can still get the extra 80-100 damage by grinding from 50-100.
Heres the graph so people understand better what I mean. Click the image on the site so you can actually read it or just admire my paint skills (it has colours and everything):
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/6446/statgraph.png
[Mod Edit]
Comments
I dont know why you want to play an MMO at all, if you complain about the differences between people just started and ppl who put already 6 months into their character development? Why to nerf this people who spent so much time already? I mean that is the concept of an MMO. If you dont like that, play Modern Warfare. BTW i never seen any other MMO where you can have a that big edge against a vet player, at least more then in WoW or AoC you name it. I mean is like IRL if you are running marathon for 10 years, it will be hard for a guy who just started running to beat you, right?
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." - Frank Zappa -
Darkfall's design often sets people off because of the skill gap and the stat grind required to reach the top, but they forget that you are still useful in the game world in some way or another even if you're not in the front lines of guild warfare. Instead of people complaining and ending their subscriptions because a higher skilled person killed them, they should be leveling their stats to get there themselves. It's almost like being level 10 in WoW and quitting because a level 80 is better than you. Of course Darkfall is supposed to be that 'levelless' game, but without skill gap you might as well play Counter-Strike or another team based shooter.
People get upset with Darkfall because it takes much longer to reach a level playing field with veterans than it does in most other MMOs. I don't understand why some of your vets automatically turn every one of these posts into an "I want it NOW NOW NOW" argument. No one is suggesting that you should just be given equality with vets right from the beginning. However, it shouldn't take a year of hardcore grinding to get there... That is just excessive and it asks far too much from the players.
In a PVP-oriented game with almost 0 non-PVP content, it should not take considerably longer to reach end game than it does in other games. It just highlights the fact that there is no meaningful PVE content and makes it painfully obvious that everything you do in game is a grind.
I personally joined the game with 3 RL friends and ALL of them are gone now. They got tired of being 4-shotted by veterans even after three months of hardcore grinding. Honestly, I can't blame them. I am barely holding on myself at this point...
Agreed. I'm about a month in yet I stand face to face with anyone who attacks me whether their a vet or not. I see no point of running from red in DF so I dont. Whether they kill me or not I know I tried and I'll likely learn something out of the fight whether its just simply getting better at the pvp basics.
Any gankers I come across in DF I also write down their name so I can come looking for them at a later date once I'm with a good clan and my skills/gear ready for war. DF isnt a game for whiners and complainers, so if you tend to bitch and moan often when playing a MMO....your playing the wrong game imo. You'll only cause yourself stress and headaches
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
Im so tired of people comparing WoW with DF. You cant compare these 2.
A level 80 can kill a newb in WoW, but he cant loot anything and besides it isnt attractive for anyone to kill newbs except for "vets" with small dicks... and not to mentioned different areas for each level range.
In Darkfall a vet can go and kill newbs easy as they share area aswell. Vets go kill newbs as they know its free kill (no risk except you are dumb as hell), you get free alligment and from time to time even good loot (deeds etc).
Hell i give a shit if someone gets there were i am in shorter time as long it improves the game by increasing the population. Even if fresh people would level faster stats i would still win against them as im more experienced and got more and better gear which got aswell big impact in DF. Because i could farm longer, stronger mobs as someone who started fresh DF.
I dont get why people still try to hide behind their stats.
More population --> more enemys --> more fun --> more DF! Anyone who says anythingelse should go play tetris!
EvE doors
See the best doors on EvE-on!
Apparently it is a game that is primarily for people who have no life. You really can't be successful in this game unless you can devote the majority of your time to it. It is less of a game and more of a full-time obligation.
I guess that is ultimately why I have problems with it. I have a job, family, and many other rl responsibilities that would preclude me from being able to experience the 'fun' part of the game in any reasonable period of time. And unfortunately I don't consider being a meat shield for more useful players in clan warfare to be fun...
I think if I were one of the developers working on this game I would be concerned with the fact that it has such a low retention rate.
I agree it shouldn't ... and it doesn't!
If after 3 months of hardcore grinding you're getting 4 shotted by other players then you're doing something very wrong. Either that or your definition of hardcore is closer to my definition of very casual.
After 2.5 months I have 324 HP and 100 (99.90) in archery, GA mastery 40 and witches brew. I can hold my own against other players, I've beaten older players and lost to them. It's all about PvP skill at this point, not stats. You won't get a specail number or golden handshake to certain victory unlike 99% of MMORPGs on the market. You need to work for it, and that doesn't mean grinding it means learning the tricks of the trade when it comes to PvP.
If you're on EU-1 send me a PM and you can join up with our clan and get some good advice on PvP and char development. All this stat whining is just an excuse for losing out to players with far more experience than you. Would you expect to be WTFPWNBBQQing every player after 3 months of playing battlefield or counter strike? No, of course you wouldn't because it takes knowledge of maps, learning twitch skills and let's face it there are plenty of people playing that are just better than you'll ever be.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
My definition of hardcore probably is not the same as yours. I play on average 4 hours every night and about 6-8 on Sat/Sun. That is already more time than I should be devoting to the game. I have GS mastery to 30 and SS and have also started working on some magic schools. I am definitely doing better in most encounters than I was when I started, but I am still not doing nearly as much damage as many of the people I end up fighting. I can't help but be a bit discouraged at this point since all of my friends who joined up with me have already quit and I still feel very outmatched in most 1v1 encounters with vets.
I'm sure that my play-style has a lot to do with it since I prefer to roam with 1 or 2 trusted friends rather than a large clan. I'm sure I would have a much easier time with more allies at my back.
If you got those stats after 2.5 months, AV must have changed the grind and not told us. My alt does hardly anything else than harvest, and has done so for almost a year. If I get into my crafting journal, you can get an idea of what work your char has done.
Armorsmithing - workload of 808 items - master+
Smelting - workload of 17808 ingots
Weaponsmithing - workload of 2144 items - master+
woodcutting - workload of 17142 wood
You can do the math of the amount of woodcutting and mining i had to do from these number. This char also have mastery of 50 + in both polearm and sword. From doing these tedious things I got 332 health, and you got 324 health in 2.5 months. My point is, if your numbers are right (you are a nice guy, so I belive you), AV has lessen on the grind. I`m happy if this is the case.
I`m not counting the 4594 tailor items and 8225 cooked fish.
If you got those stats after 2.5 months, AV must have changed the grind and not told us. My alt does hardly anything else than harvest, and has done so for almost a year. If I get into my crafting journal, you can get an idea of what work your char has done.
Armorsmithing - workload of 808 items - master+
Smelting - workload of 17808 ingots
Weaponsmithing - workload of 2144 items - master+
woodcutting - workload of 17142 wood
You can do the math of the amount of woodcutting and mining i had to do from these number. This char also have mastery of 50 + in both polearm and sword. From doing these tedious things I got 332 health, and you got 324 health in 2.5 months. My point is, if your numbers are right (you are a nice guy, so I belive you), AV has lessen on the grind. I`m happy if this is the case.
I`m not counting the 4594 tailor items and 8225 cooked fish.
OK my idea of hardcore (this is my average DFO day, and yes I know it's sad!) is, wake up around 7am. Get kid ready for school and send him off. 8am, log into DFO and get out my pick axe and start mining those ore rocks. Whilst this is happening I work from home organizing deliverys and purchases.
I don't have to be far from the comp so make sure my char is always doing something (keeping the sound up helps). If I have say a few hours spare at some time during the day I'll go and do something like a title quest or killing a mob or leveling magic. Otherwise I mine ore then log wood then gather herbs/fish in that order. I'll get about 1000 iron ore/timber in one day depending on how many times I'm ganked.
I finish up around 10pm-12pm at night. So my char is always doing something throughout the day. When I lived in Asia there were many that wouldn't consider this to be hardcore. There were guys that lived inside internet cafes 24/7, if they ever slept I wasn't aware of it!
So on average my char is doing 13-15 hours a day, and in 2.5 months I'm at 324 hp. It may seem a tad extreme but my point is it is possible to get there, it just depends on how hardcore you are. You've actually done more smelting and smithing than my char, but it goes to show you probably play alot more than I do on average.
Do the stats make a difference? Yes.
Is the difference enough to gain victory over a better PvPer? No.
There's alot to learn about actually winning a fight and it has nothing to do with who has the highest stats. If a good PvPer rolled a new char and skilled it up for a couple of weeks and we fought with the same gear, he'd probably own me.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
That's kinda my thing too. My character is always doing something (mining, fishing, etc) through the day while I do other things around the house. The only time I really shut the game off is when sleeping (I don't do the swimming / running thing, I consider it lame), or at work.
Even now, my toon is chopping wood, and I'm alt-tabbed to this forum.
I've said too much already!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
You do realize that the vast majority of gamers cannot possibly invest the kind of time you put into the game right?
If having your character logged in and doing something nearly 24-hours per day is really what is required to be successful, no wonder this game is bleeding subscribers...
I guess those of us with jobs outside of the house are not hardcore enough.
guess you missed my post above?? I have a job outside the house. Never been a problem for me.
Some leave, more arrive....just like any other game.
I'll just have to repeat the most over-used phrase here; "Darkfall is not for everyone".
For every two that leave, two more stay. I wouldn't really say it's "bleeding subscribers", just that those who can't hack it leave, and others take their place.
I understand that you're feeling peeved but look at it this way. There are always going to be people better than you in life, at sports, crosswords, dancing and video games. You do the best you can with what you have, there's no point bearing a grudge or having a chip on your shoulder because someone gets more time to train or is just plain better.
Just do your best and take satisfaction in that, you can't go toe to toe with a 1 year vet? Then get a few buddies and roll him, this is darkfall not some shitty arena or duel. I'm a fucking no lifer and I can't go toe to toe with any veteran PvPers and win! It's like bitching that Micheal Schummaker beat me because he gets more time to drive cars than I do. At some point you just have to accept that this guy is better and probably always will be, so you've got to wait around and maybe be there on the day he fucks up and then take him. That or party up and school him and grab his loot.
This is how these games used to be and in my opinion should be, I don't want everyone to be on a level footing playing some lame rock/paper/scissors game. If I wanted that I'd still be subscribed to AoC! Alot of people just can't handle it that they can't be counted amongst the elite with everyone else after 2 weeks of casual play and a visit to the item shop. Bruised egos turn to jealousy, jealousy turns to hatred and hatred turns to /rage quit.
I don't want this game changed to be like all the other rock/paper/scissors button mashers with instant 1337ness and victory handed on a plate. I want to play an MMORPG again.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Very well put. I agree that the stats should be designed with diminishing returns. I think the heart of the matter is that DF is a pvp-only game, and asking players to grind for a few months on pve gameplay to achieve " balance " is a bit counter intuitive.
I understand that you're feeling peeved but look at it this way. There are always going to be people better than you in life, at sports, crosswords, dancing and video games. You do the best you can with what you have, there's no point bearing a grudge or having a chip on your shoulder because someone gets more time to train or is just plain better.
Just do your best and take satisfaction in that, you can't go toe to toe with a 1 year vet? Then get a few buddies and roll him, this is darkfall not some shitty arena or duel. I'm a fucking no lifer and I can't go toe to toe with any veteran PvPers and win! It's like bitching that Micheal Schummaker beat me because he gets more time to drive cars than I do. At some point you just have to accept that this guy is better and probably always will be, so you've got to wait around and maybe be there on the day he fucks up and then take him. That or party up and school him and grab his loot.
This is how these games used to be and in my opinion should be, I don't want everyone to be on a level footing playing some lame rock/paper/scissors game. If I wanted that I'd still be subscribed to AoC! Alot of people just can't handle it that they can't be counted amongst the elite with everyone else after 2 weeks of casual play and a visit to the item shop. Bruised egos turn to jealousy, jealousy turns to hatred and hatred turns to /rage quit.
I don't want this game changed to be like all the other rock/paper/scissors button mashers with instant 1337ness and victory handed on a plate. I want to play an MMORPG again.
That says it all.
That's definitely up there with a few of the best posts I've seen on this site. Thank you for that.
I actually exhaled in a big way after reading.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I understand that you're feeling peeved but look at it this way. There are always going to be people better than you in life, at sports, crosswords, dancing and video games. You do the best you can with what you have, there's no point bearing a grudge or having a chip on your shoulder because someone gets more time to train or is just plain better.
Just do your best and take satisfaction in that, you can't go toe to toe with a 1 year vet? Then get a few buddies and roll him, this is darkfall not some shitty arena or duel. I'm a fucking no lifer and I can't go toe to toe with any veteran PvPers and win! It's like bitching that Micheal Schummaker beat me because he gets more time to drive cars than I do. At some point you just have to accept that this guy is better and probably always will be, so you've got to wait around and maybe be there on the day he fucks up and then take him. That or party up and school him and grab his loot.
This is how these games used to be and in my opinion should be, I don't want everyone to be on a level footing playing some lame rock/paper/scissors game. If I wanted that I'd still be subscribed to AoC! Alot of people just can't handle it that they can't be counted amongst the elite with everyone else after 2 weeks of casual play and a visit to the item shop. Bruised egos turn to jealousy, jealousy turns to hatred and hatred turns to /rage quit.
I don't want this game changed to be like all the other rock/paper/scissors button mashers with instant 1337ness and victory handed on a plate. I want to play an MMORPG again.
But that's just it... they don't win because they are better than me. They win because they have a synthetic advantage in terms of stats and character skills. I am quite confident I would pwn some of these people if the playing field was more level. And I can't help but be frustrated that I will probably never overcome the handicap.
And when I say the game is bleeding subscribers, I mean that out of 4 people who joined the game (me and 3 rl friends), I am the only one left. We also met a few people in game who we grouped with frequently and guess what... they have all quit too. I am the only one left and I too am starting to have my doubts about the game for the reasons I have already mentioned. When 4 people join together and only 1 is left after nearly 3 months, that to me seems like bleeding subscribers. And we were all very enthusiastic when we started. We had all been waiting for a hardcore full-loot FFA MMO for YEARS.
In the end, all of them quit for the same reason... they just couldn't handle the grind in addition to their rl responsibilities. Can you really blame them?
I understand that you're feeling peeved but look at it this way. There are always going to be people better than you in life, at sports, crosswords, dancing and video games. You do the best you can with what you have, there's no point bearing a grudge or having a chip on your shoulder because someone gets more time to train or is just plain better.
Just do your best and take satisfaction in that, you can't go toe to toe with a 1 year vet? Then get a few buddies and roll him, this is darkfall not some shitty arena or duel. I'm a fucking no lifer and I can't go toe to toe with any veteran PvPers and win! It's like bitching that Micheal Schummaker beat me because he gets more time to drive cars than I do. At some point you just have to accept that this guy is better and probably always will be, so you've got to wait around and maybe be there on the day he fucks up and then take him. That or party up and school him and grab his loot.
This is how these games used to be and in my opinion should be, I don't want everyone to be on a level footing playing some lame rock/paper/scissors game. If I wanted that I'd still be subscribed to AoC! Alot of people just can't handle it that they can't be counted amongst the elite with everyone else after 2 weeks of casual play and a visit to the item shop. Bruised egos turn to jealousy, jealousy turns to hatred and hatred turns to /rage quit.
I don't want this game changed to be like all the other rock/paper/scissors button mashers with instant 1337ness and victory handed on a plate. I want to play an MMORPG again.
That says it all.
That's definitely up there with a few of the best posts I've seen on this site. Thank you for that.
I actually exhaled in a big way after reading.
The points are all good, but until the playing field IS level, and he STILL loses fights because he sucks, they are not necessarily true. This is all speculation.
His is not speculation. He HAS a disadvantage, no matter how small. This is not so smart a post in this context. If you had posted it in reply to a wow player with his welfare-epics, i would also be applauding it.
His point remains completely valid, you gave him no reply or challenge.
That says it all.
That's definitely up there with a few of the best posts I've seen on this site. Thank you for that.
I actually exhaled in a big way after reading.
The points are all good, but until the playing field IS level, and he STILL loses fights because he sucks, they are not necessarily true. This is all speculation.
His is not speculation. He HAS a disadvantage, no matter how small. This is not so smart a post in this context. If you had posted it in reply to a wow player with his welfare-epics, i would also be applauding it.
His point remains completely valid, you gave him no reply or challenge.
I replied with an appreciation of his post. Nothing more.
What you see as agricola's speculation, some of us see as actual in-game experience that leads to the knowledge of the game that he has. If I was new to DF or had not played at all, I might have shared your opinion of his post. But having spent the time that I have in DF, I know better.
Sorry my comment ruffled your feathers so much.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I played UO from beta to AOS..
I love this type of game. However..
I didnt last very long in Darkfall, mostly because to the gap between vet and newb, and the amount of time in my day to play right now (after reading this thread, its even bigger than i though
)
As others have said, I don't have the time to make up this gap right now, and the longer i wait, the larger it will be. I may try the game again when I have more time to play in a few months, but i honestly doubt it. Its too bad, because i really think i would like this game...
A lot of people like to compare Darkfall to UO, but in this regard (the gap), they are very much different..
Are you guys serious? My friend plays an average of 5 or so hours a day or less, and he current has 270HP, GA Mastery 30, earth magic 50 and working on witches brew.
His first month just renewed at the start of this week. You just have to know how to properly skill up and what things are the most important, of course he won't hold his own in a 1v1 against a veteran player just yet, but by the time his 2nd month renews he will more than likely be getting there.
Are you guys serious? My friend plays an average of 5 or so hours a day or less, and he current has 270HP, GA Mastery 30, earth magic 50 and working on witches brew.
His first month just renewed at the start of this week. You just have to know how to properly skill up and what things are the most important, of course he won't hold his own in a 1v1 against a veteran player just yet, but by the time his 2nd month renews he will more than likely be getting there.
Very serious...
some of us have a full time job, and a family..
5 hours a day to a game...everyday... for 2 months... just to get competative..
think about that for a minute..
Are you guys serious? My friend plays an average of 5 or so hours a day or less, and he current has 270HP, GA Mastery 30, earth magic 50 and working on witches brew.
His first month just renewed at the start of this week. You just have to know how to properly skill up and what things are the most important, of course he won't hold his own in a 1v1 against a veteran player just yet, but by the time his 2nd month renews he will more than likely be getting there.
Very serious...
some of us have a full time job, and a family..
5 hours a day to a game...everyday... for 2 months... just to get competative..
think about that for a minute..
5 Hours OR LESS. Some days he is not on at all when I am. He is also extremely full time given that he's got classes and is on the swimteam, and a job. If he can find the time to play I'm sure anyone can.
I am on usually as much as him but not every day but while I am on I know what to do to get myself prepared.