I'd rather not have to mess around with an out-of-game shop and throw real funds into it, I'd rather just put my card in and forget about it each month. The whole concept of 'buying' in-game items or privileges is something I'll never be able to understand. I want to pay for the game, and the subscriptions - NOT virtual items.
Way to stand up for your cause. Since almost every major MMO released lately has some form of cash shop....enjoy gaming vicariously through others.
Or not gaming in the majors at all, which is more of a realistic option for me. I have no desire to be fleeced for in game items/ abilities (even fluff ones) that should be part of the given content... I am suprised you do and that people in general are lining up at the barn door so readily.
Way to stand up for no cause at all.
Coming away from the quoted post here though... I am amazed at how easily the corperations have seduced the gaming public on this matter.
I personally don't think people who want to buy their rewards in a game are gamers at all, or even actually playing a game tbh. They are more like consumers in a virtual market space that happens to have a chat room attached. What pleasure/ satisfaction is gained from simply purchasing that new ship skin (or whatever)? I don't see the sense of achievement in it myself.
I completely agree, WHEN....you're talking about things that actually affect the power of one's character, such as gear with stats and weapons. I completely disagree when it comes to items such as "appearance gear" that is only for looks and adds nothing to a character's stats, vanity pets (also only for looks), furniture, and things of this nature. I think any game that gives me more OPTIONS while not detracting from another's play, nor "buffing up" my own and making me "better" against others that don't choose to purchase things....is FINE. I actually LIKE having those options. And I am INDEED a "gamer." I don't want my competitive abilities to be altered, but by god if I want to buy a pretty dress to wear "over my armor" that customizes my character so I LOOK unique....I think it's GREAT if I'm able to do that.
Lets look at it logically with Pay to Achieve 'gaming' aside (I agree that "pay to achieve" defeats the purpose of PLAYING a game)... Corperations like RMT shops because they make them more money then subs, especially if they can get a sub as well. That money only comes from one place, and thats you. Hence it is undeniable that RMT costs the gamer more for content that should be in anyhow. An argument for RMT shops is an argument for more expensive gaming experiences. Why do you want that? If it's OPTIONAL...I don't see how it makes gaming any more expensive for those that don't choose to spend money.....now if they started making NECESSARY items cash shop ONLY purchases...yeah, I wouldn't be interested in spending money in that way. So...I wouldn't. Seems simple enough.
By the way, I find it funny that every 'gamer' that supports in game item shops always claims to 'never use them myself'... I have yet to have this conversation with a gamer who is open and honest about their RMT use and how much they really spend per month. It is like they are embaressed or something... Everyone always claims to spend nothing, or next to nothing, yet RMT games make more money then subs ones for the devs... I have no idea how that works lol.
Here's your opportunity....ask me whatever you want. I don't "claim to never use them." I do use them very RARELY. And...I don't use them at all in games that sell things that actually BETTER your character (FreeRealms is an example of this, as you can buy weapons that are 10x better than anything in the game, with...cash). Therefore, even IF FreeRealms was a game I was interested in (I helped beta the game)....I would not choose to play it, because, imo...the WAY they use RMT....renders it unbalanced and unfair.
I DO use RMT (with the same company as FreeRealms, actually) when they do it in a way that I, personally, consider proper, as in EQ2. I have purchased furniture for my house, even though my main is a carpenter, because I liked the way the furniture looked. However, most of my furniture is crafted. The particular pieces I purchased...were just....cool. I have also purchased one "appearance set" of armor which has no stats, and is only worn for looks, because...it was awesome looking.
In WoW...I purchased a total of ONE vanity pet for my partner for her birthday because....I knew she secretly wanted it, and it was adorable...AND they were giving half the cost to a worthy charity. But trust me...her having this pet out in combat...has not made her ANY better at PvP....or PvE, for that matter. lol It did, however, put a huge smile on her face, that was WELL WORTH a measly 10 bucks.
Any more questions....feel free. I have no need to "lie," as I don't give a rat's ass what anyone thinks of me. I'm 46 years old, and earn a living honestly. It's my money, and I spend it when, where, and how I choose. I'm not "seduced" into spending money. If I like something and can afford it, and WANT to, and it's not hurting anyone....I buy it.
The whole debate over RMT seems, for the most part, silly to me. If you don't want to be "nickled and dimed to death," then don't spend the money, and if you take issue with a company in the WAY they're doing RMT...either tell them and hope for change (heh), or QUIT the game.
Choices....are not a bad thing. Lack of self-control or the ability to say NO when you WANT to say no, however....is. I don't have problems with the latter, so RMT doesn't really bother me, the way it's done in MOST games. And the ones who do it very poorly....just don't get my money OR my sub. AND.....if they "sneak in" RMT that I feel is done improperly, after I've already subbed...I have NO PROBLEM in canceling my sub. I've done it before, and I'm sure I'll probably have reason to do it again some day....
Originally posted by girlgeek If it's OPTIONAL...I don't see how it makes gaming any more expensive for those that don't choose to spend money.....now if they started making NECESSARY items cash shop ONLY purchases...yeah, I wouldn't be interested in spending money in that way. So...I wouldn't. Seems simple enough.
Define "necessary'.
As for that furniture - don't you think it should be available to be earned in-game?
You say players have a choice whether to buy it or not - well we live in the real world, and some people have more disposible income than others. You're really okay with grinding players' faces in the fact that they are too poor to buy novelty items in a multiplayer game? A lot of players use games to get away from the real world.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
If the cash shop gives the purchasing player an advantage in gameplay over normal paying players, No I would not.
If the shop however is for fun, unique items (custom models, outfits, missions?) and gives no disadvantage to the normal paying player, Yes I would still play.
If someone else is getting more fun out of the game due to paying more money than I am, then that is a deal-breaker.
While I understand this sentiment, it sure is a defeatist mentality. Actually...it sounds easily transferable into being suicidal. It's a good thing you don't look at all of LIFE this way. Because, truthfully, let's be honest here....people all over the WORLD are having more fun than most of us because they can pay more for all KINDS of things.....
This, sadly, is just pretty much real life everywhere in the world. So I guess I can understand not wanting that delineation in a game....
If I let that get to me in real life...I'd throw in the towel entirely...lol. I'm assuming that since your neighbor can aford to go on 2 week cruises in the Caribbean and therefore have more fun than you....that it doesn't make you want to quit life? I hope not.
But really....you can have as much FUN doing anything as you CHOOSE to have. And I don't really believe that having fun requires having more money than the next guy. I just have fun doing DIFFERENT things than he/she does. (but then that's IRL)
It makes no real difference to me if those items for sale are 'novelty' items. If I can't get them by playing the game, I don't want others getting them by paying more. And, no, ridiculous grinds to get cash items are not 'playing the game.'
'Fun' items don't matter? I don't know what you are playing for, but fun is my reason.
I really DO understand your reasoning with this, it's just that...a lot of different things are fun. I can have fun with getting any ingame vanity pet, and actually...I've really been tickled with ones I had to work at to GET. It made them more special to me. But we're all different. If you struggle with frustration from not being able to "keep up with the Joneses," so to speak, in having superfluous items, because to you they show some sort of "status," then yes....it would cut into the "fun" aspect, I guess. That does make sense.
Or not gaming in the majors at all, which is more of a realistic option for me. I have no desire to be fleeced for in game items/ abilities (even fluff ones) that should be part of the given content... I am suprised you do and that people in general are lining up at the barn door so readily. Way to stand up for no cause at all.
There doesn't always need to be a cause.
Where were the people when companies were trying to rent you your music? Some companies wanted people to pay for subs so that they could listen to the entirety of that company's catalog. you dont' own your music you rent it. Of course I'm old fashioned and buy hard copies of all my music. The idea of paying for music monthly is not to my taste.
Or to a certain extent, Sattelite radio. You pay a sub and you listen to the radio sans commercials. oh wait! Cable TV was like that once!
And now, you can pay for your subscription but if you want the good movies you need to pay a la carte.
People don't seem to be up in arms over that. Oh I'm sure there are people who don't sub to sattelite radio or Cable TV but most people I know don't get angry at the thought of either. Not everybody thinks it's horrible because not everybody is going to need/want to own their own movies/music.
Not everybody is going to think that paying for fluff items or extra character slots is an issue. Especially because they don't really think of these games as just "games".
It's not like it was a game like chess where you get all the pieces but for an extra dollar you can get an extra Queen. They are more about socializing and experiencing the content.
So sure, others are probably old fashioned as well and I understand that. But it's not going to be an issue for everyone because they probably don't see the big deal. I certainly don't. If someone wants to buy a cosmetic item or an extra teleport to town then I really won't lose any sleep over it. I just don't care.
The only time it's an issue is if there is player vs player competition. I'm afraid I can't get on board with pve competition between players as that really has no merit with me and I don't see being the first to take down a boss as anything of value.
But if one is buying advantages in a pure pvp game, then that to me is an issue.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by girlgeek If it's OPTIONAL...I don't see how it makes gaming any more expensive for those that don't choose to spend money.....now if they started making NECESSARY items cash shop ONLY purchases...yeah, I wouldn't be interested in spending money in that way. So...I wouldn't. Seems simple enough.
Define "necessary'.
As for that furniture - don't you think it should be available to be earned in-game?
You say players have a choice whether to buy it or not - well we live in the real world, and some people have more disposible income than others. You're really okay with grinding players' faces in the fact that they are too poor to buy novelty items in a multiplayer game? A lot of players use games to get away from the real world.
To ME necessary means needful for succeeding in the game, and being competitive in combat. If it's just a vanity item that doesn't change the way I can fight....it's not necessary, it's superficial.
There is a shit ton of furniture available via questing AND crafting in EQ2, and it's beautiful stuff. I have loads of it. The items I bought, actually "replaced" some things that were stolen by a guy that I allowed to "share" my house with me. (I will NEVER EVER do that again.) And I didn't feel like re-crafting a few of the items, so...I just bought a few things, that while not being as nice as the crafted stuff I had, would at least fill up the space in my room that USED to have my nice crafted stuff in it. It was my living room furniture, so....it was kind of important (to me) to fill that space. It cost me 10 dollars and made me feel not NEAR so bad about losing the other stuff, because...my living room at least looked DECENT again.
But...what you said in the second paragraph....I kind of understand because of what someone else posted that I just responded to....and NO, I, personally, do not ever want to make anyone feel sad, or poor, or inferior in any way. It actually saddens me to think about that. However, I'm not sure that feelings of inferiority aren't maybe something that needs to be dealt with outside of the game, rather than expecting other people to be concerned with it. After all....I'M also playing to have fun...and in the same way curbing your fun for MY benefit seems rude and selfish....it can also be seen the other way around. So...to be honest....I just have no good answer for this. But no...I do NOT like other people to FEEL bad. So...I'm kind of conflicted on this now....thanks....thanks a lot.
People saying they won't play a game that has a cash shop for fluff items only are ignorant. I mean really, how does it effect how YOU play? Or are you just jealous of people in an online game that has a new pair of boots that you don't, if so that makes me laugh even more.
The key factor for me is if it RELEASES with cash shop. Because if it is, it has been designed with cash shop on top of sub in mind. If you look at STO for example, you see a far from finished released MMO, but apparently they had enough time to design a cashshop and items for that. Think about that.
Its basically saying, you get minimum effort for sub and full package for sub+cashshop. No matter whats sold in the cashshop, it takes dev time.
Originally posted by girlgeek I really DO understand your reasoning with this, it's just that...a lot of different things are fun. I can have fun with getting any ingame vanity pet, and actually...I've really been tickled with ones I had to work at to GET. It made them more special to me. But we're all different. If you struggle with frustration from not being able to "keep up with the Joneses," so to speak, in having superfluous items, because to you they show some sort of "status," then yes....it would cut into the "fun" aspect, I guess. That does make sense.
No, it's not about keeping up with the Joneses. Not for me, anyway.
I'll give an example:
It's my understanding that one of the several pre-order deals available allowed the purchaser to use the uniforms from the original Star Trek series. Now - while I am a fan of the IP in general, and favourite episodes from each - TOS is by far, my favourite series overall. It would greatly enhance my fun to have my crew using those uniforms. Rather than have them available in-game, Cryptic chose to use them to sell pre-orders. They might well add them to the cash shop later, or they might have put there instead of using them for a sales gimmick. Either way, I don't get to enjoy something which should have been included in the game outright.
Those uniforms don't give any play advantage, other than making the game more fun for fans of TOS. When a company has the option of selling something for extra money - guess which choice they will make? Every item they create will be judged whether it will go into the game, or into the cash shop. That is a negative for the players.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by girlgeek So...to be honest....I just have no good answer for this. But no...I do NOT like other people to FEEL bad. So...I'm kind of conflicted on this now....thanks....thanks a lot.
I am sorry. It's not an easy life being a good person. I can tell you care about people from posts you have made on other topics, and say that I genuinely appreciate those who care about others. That is why I am here, trying to keep games as enjoyable and fair as possible.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I learned my lesson with Champions, and this particular slippery slope is greased with tallow. I thought I was fine with pay2showoff, but it soon became pay for everything.
If TOR has open world, non instanced large scale PvP, I might play it. If TOR has open world, non instanced, large scale raiding I might play it.
The cash shop has little to do with whether or not I choose to the play the game. If its fun, I will play it, even if it costs me more money than the normal monthly sub...as long as its fun.
A cash shop to me is not much different than those uber raids that take twenty people and ten hours to complete for uber loot, they both require a much larger commitment than I'm willing to make one in time the other in money so I personally will still be playing (just like I'm willing to bet half the people who voted no will do) and I really only say that because we are fast moving towards every single mmo on the market having a cash shop and since so many of them put up with lies by companies like FC and SOE I doubt many of them will be quitting the games all together anytime soon.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Originally posted by girlgeek I really DO understand your reasoning with this, it's just that...a lot of different things are fun. I can have fun with getting any ingame vanity pet, and actually...I've really been tickled with ones I had to work at to GET. It made them more special to me. But we're all different. If you struggle with frustration from not being able to "keep up with the Joneses," so to speak, in having superfluous items, because to you they show some sort of "status," then yes....it would cut into the "fun" aspect, I guess. That does make sense.
No, it's not about keeping up with the Joneses. Not for me, anyway.
I'll give an example:
It's my understanding that one of the several pre-order deals available allowed the purchaser to use the uniforms from the original Star Trek series. Now - while I am a fan of the IP in general, and favourite episodes from each - TOS is by far, my favourite series overall. It would greatly enhance my fun to have my crew using those uniforms. Rather than have them available in-game, Cryptic chose to use them to sell pre-orders. They might well add them to the cash shop later, or they might have put there instead of using them for a sales gimmick. Either way, I don't get to enjoy something which should have been included in the game outright.
Those uniforms don't give any play advantage, other than making the game more fun for fans of TOS. When a company has the option of selling something for extra money - guess which choice they will make? Every item they create will be judged whether it will go into the game, or into the cash shop. That is a negative for the players.
Oh I can REALLY see your point now, when you put in light of an IP like Star Trek, and since the thread IS about Star WARS....the possibility for it being equally detrimental in that way....does indeed exist.
I wasn't really thinking about how the effects can actually differ from IP to IP, but....this is a good example of how that really CAN be a factor in whether RMT can affect your level of actual FUN. Wow. I honestly never thought of this.....
Originally posted by girlgeek I really DO understand your reasoning with this, it's just that...a lot of different things are fun. I can have fun with getting any ingame vanity pet, and actually...I've really been tickled with ones I had to work at to GET. It made them more special to me. But we're all different. If you struggle with frustration from not being able to "keep up with the Joneses," so to speak, in having superfluous items, because to you they show some sort of "status," then yes....it would cut into the "fun" aspect, I guess. That does make sense.
No, it's not about keeping up with the Joneses. Not for me, anyway.
I'll give an example:
It's my understanding that one of the several pre-order deals available allowed the purchaser to use the uniforms from the original Star Trek series. Now - while I am a fan of the IP in general, and favourite episodes from each - TOS is by far, my favourite series overall. It would greatly enhance my fun to have my crew using those uniforms. Rather than have them available in-game, Cryptic chose to use them to sell pre-orders. They might well add them to the cash shop later, or they might have put there instead of using them for a sales gimmick. Either way, I don't get to enjoy something which should have been included in the game outright.
Those uniforms don't give any play advantage, other than making the game more fun for fans of TOS. When a company has the option of selling something for extra money - guess which choice they will make? Every item they create will be judged whether it will go into the game, or into the cash shop. That is a negative for the players.
My biggest problem with your example is that you mention one itme that really doesn't cost anyone any more money, if you pre ordered the game you pay the same price as if you waited til the day of release. Your argument really only affects a person who felt the need to have multiple pre order vanity items and in that case if you can't make a decision between one or the other maybe one is keeping up with the Joneses wether they know it or not.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Originally posted by girlgeek Oh I can REALLY see your point now, when you put in light of an IP like Star Trek, and since the thread IS about Star WARS....the possibility for it being equally detrimental in that way....does indeed exist. I wasn't really thinking about how the effects can actually differ from IP to IP, but....this is a good example of how that really CAN be a factor in whether RMT can affect your level of actual FUN. Wow. I honestly never thought of this.....
1 - I honestly forgot which thread I was replying in, as I am involved in three or so discussions at this time.
2 - imagine if this new SW game was set in the time of the original trilogy and players could fly fighters on the rebel side. Imagine if X-Wings were only available in the cash shop, and others had to make do with Y-Wings (which were functionally identical). Imagine if Luke and Vader had individual Lightsabre colour, and those were only in the cash shop.
It is very easy to offer 'vanity' items that have a very high cool factor, while not affecting game play in a competitive sense.
I am trying out Fallen Earth currently, and just spent enough skill points to be able to wear a certain type of hat. Not for the stats, but for the look. Appearances are important in an RPG. One is playing a character, and the look is important to a role-player.
You know what I mean. I'm just giving other examples for the other readers.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by jaxsundane My biggest problem with your example is that you mention one itme that really doesn't cost anyone any more money, if you pre ordered the game you pay the same price as if you waited til the day of release. Yes, the advantage to the company is that it encourages sales before the game is out and players have a good idea about the game. Your argument really only affects a person who felt the need to have multiple pre order vanity items and in that case if you can't make a decision between one or the other maybe one is keeping up with the Joneses wether they know it or not.
As I said - it could just as easily been put into the cash shop, instead. It might well go there later on.
Either way, it is being used to increase profits/early sales, rather than being put into the game as something to be earned (by playing the game).
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by girlgeek Oh I can REALLY see your point now, when you put in light of an IP like Star Trek, and since the thread IS about Star WARS....the possibility for it being equally detrimental in that way....does indeed exist. I wasn't really thinking about how the effects can actually differ from IP to IP, but....this is a good example of how that really CAN be a factor in whether RMT can affect your level of actual FUN. Wow. I honestly never thought of this.....
1 - I honestly forgot which thread I was replying in, as I am involved in three or so discussions at this time.
2 - imagine if this new SW game was set in the time of the original trilogy and players could fly fighters on the rebel side. Imagine if X-Wings were only available in the cash shop, and others had to make do with Y-Wings (which were functionally identical). Imagine if Luke and Vader had individual Lightsabre colour, and those were only in the cash shop.
It is very easy to offer 'vanity' items that have a very high cool factor, while not affecting game play in a competitive sense.
I am trying out Fallen Earth currently, and just spent enough skill points to be able to wear a certain type of hat. Not for the stats, but for the look. Appearances are important in an RPG. One is playing a character, and the look is important to a role-player.
You know what I mean. I'm just giving other examples for the other readers.
Funny you would mention light sabre colors as this is what came to mind when thinking of what a cash shop in this game might contain. The mmo industry is really leaving a bad smell the last few years. Blind preorders which amount to paid beta, lifetime subscriptions for games not released and cash shops all contribute to the smell. Some congratulate WOW for bringing the masses to MMO's and now we are seeing how the game companies are milking the masses. I see no future for me in this hobby.
Originally posted by girlgeek Oh I can REALLY see your point now, when you put in light of an IP like Star Trek, and since the thread IS about Star WARS....the possibility for it being equally detrimental in that way....does indeed exist. I wasn't really thinking about how the effects can actually differ from IP to IP, but....this is a good example of how that really CAN be a factor in whether RMT can affect your level of actual FUN. Wow. I honestly never thought of this.....
1 - I honestly forgot which thread I was replying in, as I am involved in three or so discussions at this time.
I can relate...lol!
2 - imagine if this new SW game was set in the time of the original trilogy and players could fly fighters on the rebel side. Imagine if X-Wings were only available in the cash shop, and others had to make do with Y-Wings (which were functionally identical). Imagine if Luke and Vader had individual Lightsabre colour, and those were only in the cash shop.
It is very easy to offer 'vanity' items that have a very high cool factor, while not affecting game play in a competitive sense.
I am trying out Fallen Earth currently, and just spent enough skill points to be able to wear a certain type of hat. Not for the stats, but for the look. Appearances are important in an RPG. One is playing a character, and the look is important to a role-player.
You know what I mean. I'm just giving other examples for the other readers.
LOL...I just did the same thing not too long ago to be able to equip a weapon I thought looked very CHOTA-esque in Fallen Earth, and I too, am an RP'er....so I TOTALLY get this.
Actually, Fallen Earth sort of makes a good argument for allowing customization withOUT RMT (at least so far). Spending your AP that you earn from crafting and questing, etc, to put yourself in different armor "brackets" essentially. I mean, yes the gear has stats, it's meant for fighting, but you're not spending real world money to customize your look, you're working for it in game. The cool thing they've done, is to make MANY unique "looks" of gear for every level of skill upgrade. We could have the same skill level in armor use and have completely different looking gear. That probably makes no sense to anyone not playing FE, but....anyway....it's probably one more reason I like the game...I don't HAVE to look like everyone else...AND...it doesn't cost me extra money.
Originally posted by MavisP Funny you would mention light sabre colors as this is what came to mind when thinking of what a cash shop in this game might contain. The mmo industry is really leaving a bad smell the last few years. Blind preorders which amount to paid beta, lifetime subscriptions for games not released and cash shops all contribute to the smell. Some congratulate WOW for bringing the masses to MMO's and now we are seeing how the game companies are milking the masses. I see no future for me in this hobby.
I am not optimistic in the short term, but I do think that eventually a critical mass of consumers will become jaded enough that the whole industry has a die-off like video games in the early '80s did. After that, devs will be less lazy and deceptive. At least for a while. Console games seem to be sliding quite a bit in quality the last few years. I haven't even been tempted to buy a next-gen console, despite owning a PSX, PS2, PSP, and Gamecube.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by girlgeek That probably makes no sense to anyone not playing FE, but....anyway....it's probably one more reason I like the game...I don't HAVE to look like everyone else...AND...it doesn't cost me extra money.
I shudder to think what kind of commitment It will take to make a motorcycle. I rode for about thirty years (RL) in some form, and Thomas Dolby wants to ride again!
Currently riding 'Miss Akimoto', my starter horse.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by girlgeek That probably makes no sense to anyone not playing FE, but....anyway....it's probably one more reason I like the game...I don't HAVE to look like everyone else...AND...it doesn't cost me extra money.
I shudder to think what kind of commitment It will take to make a motorcycle. I rode for about thirty years (RL) in some form, and Thomas Dolby wants to ride again!
Currently riding 'Miss Akimoto', my starter horse.
HAHA....funny you should bring up motorcycles...I JUST started working on building mine! OMG...the amount of mats is...a TRIP. So far I've only made 2 parts and I have a LOT more to make. Each part takes about 6 hours to craft. O.O Thank the gaming gods we can queue the crafting and log off or go to SLEEP....lol.
You probably know that to make the motorcycles you need to do the ATV Quest, make an ATV and DO NOT USE THE KEY....you need it to make the research book for motorcycles! You can always make another ATV if you like. I have an ATV too, but it's a gas hog and I'm not all that hip on worrying with fuel. Even my horse is an upgraded one that doesn't have to eat....I just throw an occasional refresh or fortify on it and never EVER has it had to eat. lol
Anyway....we're kinda derailin' the thread on Fallen Earth stuff, but....message me here and I'll let you know my name in game. Would love to know who you are too! =D
Originally posted by MavisP Funny you would mention light sabre colors as this is what came to mind when thinking of what a cash shop in this game might contain. The mmo industry is really leaving a bad smell the last few years. Blind preorders which amount to paid beta, lifetime subscriptions for games not released and cash shops all contribute to the smell. Some congratulate WOW for bringing the masses to MMO's and now we are seeing how the game companies are milking the masses. I see no future for me in this hobby.
I am not optimistic in the short term, but I do think that eventually a critical mass of consumers will become jaded enough that the whole industry has a die-off like video games in the early '80s did. After that, devs will be less lazy and deceptive. At least for a while. Console games seem to be sliding quite a bit in quality the last few years. I haven't even been tempted to buy a next-gen console, despite owning a PSX, PS2, PSP, and Gamecube.
Im enjoying my PS3 and think perhaps I have come full circle back to consoles. I too have a PS2, Gamecube and original Xbox. Picked up the PS3 a couple of weeks ago. One thing consoles have going for them is there are no compatibility issues. If the game is made for your console, it will run on your console with no driver or hardware issues.
Comments
I'd rather not have to mess around with an out-of-game shop and throw real funds into it, I'd rather just put my card in and forget about it each month. The whole concept of 'buying' in-game items or privileges is something I'll never be able to understand. I want to pay for the game, and the subscriptions - NOT virtual items.
I dont expect itll have a cash shop. Just the usual sub and expansion from time to time. If itll have a cashshop at release,I wont play it.
Way to stand up for your cause. Since almost every major MMO released lately has some form of cash shop....enjoy gaming vicariously through others.
Or not gaming in the majors at all, which is more of a realistic option for me. I have no desire to be fleeced for in game items/ abilities (even fluff ones) that should be part of the given content... I am suprised you do and that people in general are lining up at the barn door so readily.
Way to stand up for no cause at all.
Coming away from the quoted post here though... I am amazed at how easily the corperations have seduced the gaming public on this matter.
I personally don't think people who want to buy their rewards in a game are gamers at all, or even actually playing a game tbh. They are more like consumers in a virtual market space that happens to have a chat room attached. What pleasure/ satisfaction is gained from simply purchasing that new ship skin (or whatever)? I don't see the sense of achievement in it myself.
I completely agree, WHEN....you're talking about things that actually affect the power of one's character, such as gear with stats and weapons. I completely disagree when it comes to items such as "appearance gear" that is only for looks and adds nothing to a character's stats, vanity pets (also only for looks), furniture, and things of this nature. I think any game that gives me more OPTIONS while not detracting from another's play, nor "buffing up" my own and making me "better" against others that don't choose to purchase things....is FINE. I actually LIKE having those options. And I am INDEED a "gamer." I don't want my competitive abilities to be altered, but by god if I want to buy a pretty dress to wear "over my armor" that customizes my character so I LOOK unique....I think it's GREAT if I'm able to do that.
Lets look at it logically with Pay to Achieve 'gaming' aside (I agree that "pay to achieve" defeats the purpose of PLAYING a game)... Corperations like RMT shops because they make them more money then subs, especially if they can get a sub as well. That money only comes from one place, and thats you. Hence it is undeniable that RMT costs the gamer more for content that should be in anyhow. An argument for RMT shops is an argument for more expensive gaming experiences. Why do you want that? If it's OPTIONAL...I don't see how it makes gaming any more expensive for those that don't choose to spend money.....now if they started making NECESSARY items cash shop ONLY purchases...yeah, I wouldn't be interested in spending money in that way. So...I wouldn't. Seems simple enough.
By the way, I find it funny that every 'gamer' that supports in game item shops always claims to 'never use them myself'... I have yet to have this conversation with a gamer who is open and honest about their RMT use and how much they really spend per month. It is like they are embaressed or something... Everyone always claims to spend nothing, or next to nothing, yet RMT games make more money then subs ones for the devs... I have no idea how that works lol.
Here's your opportunity....ask me whatever you want. I don't "claim to never use them." I do use them very RARELY. And...I don't use them at all in games that sell things that actually BETTER your character (FreeRealms is an example of this, as you can buy weapons that are 10x better than anything in the game, with...cash). Therefore, even IF FreeRealms was a game I was interested in (I helped beta the game)....I would not choose to play it, because, imo...the WAY they use RMT....renders it unbalanced and unfair.
I DO use RMT (with the same company as FreeRealms, actually) when they do it in a way that I, personally, consider proper, as in EQ2. I have purchased furniture for my house, even though my main is a carpenter, because I liked the way the furniture looked. However, most of my furniture is crafted. The particular pieces I purchased...were just....cool. I have also purchased one "appearance set" of armor which has no stats, and is only worn for looks, because...it was awesome looking.
In WoW...I purchased a total of ONE vanity pet for my partner for her birthday because....I knew she secretly wanted it, and it was adorable...AND they were giving half the cost to a worthy charity. But trust me...her having this pet out in combat...has not made her ANY better at PvP....or PvE, for that matter. lol It did, however, put a huge smile on her face, that was WELL WORTH a measly 10 bucks.
Any more questions....feel free. I have no need to "lie," as I don't give a rat's ass what anyone thinks of me. I'm 46 years old, and earn a living honestly. It's my money, and I spend it when, where, and how I choose. I'm not "seduced" into spending money. If I like something and can afford it, and WANT to, and it's not hurting anyone....I buy it.
The whole debate over RMT seems, for the most part, silly to me. If you don't want to be "nickled and dimed to death," then don't spend the money, and if you take issue with a company in the WAY they're doing RMT...either tell them and hope for change (heh), or QUIT the game.
Choices....are not a bad thing. Lack of self-control or the ability to say NO when you WANT to say no, however....is. I don't have problems with the latter, so RMT doesn't really bother me, the way it's done in MOST games. And the ones who do it very poorly....just don't get my money OR my sub. AND.....if they "sneak in" RMT that I feel is done improperly, after I've already subbed...I have NO PROBLEM in canceling my sub. I've done it before, and I'm sure I'll probably have reason to do it again some day....
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Define "necessary'.
As for that furniture - don't you think it should be available to be earned in-game?
You say players have a choice whether to buy it or not - well we live in the real world, and some people have more disposible income than others. You're really okay with grinding players' faces in the fact that they are too poor to buy novelty items in a multiplayer game? A lot of players use games to get away from the real world.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
If someone else is getting more fun out of the game due to paying more money than I am, then that is a deal-breaker.
While I understand this sentiment, it sure is a defeatist mentality. Actually...it sounds easily transferable into being suicidal. It's a good thing you don't look at all of LIFE this way. Because, truthfully, let's be honest here....people all over the WORLD are having more fun than most of us because they can pay more for all KINDS of things.....
This, sadly, is just pretty much real life everywhere in the world. So I guess I can understand not wanting that delineation in a game....
If I let that get to me in real life...I'd throw in the towel entirely...lol. I'm assuming that since your neighbor can aford to go on 2 week cruises in the Caribbean and therefore have more fun than you....that it doesn't make you want to quit life? I hope not.
But really....you can have as much FUN doing anything as you CHOOSE to have. And I don't really believe that having fun requires having more money than the next guy. I just have fun doing DIFFERENT things than he/she does. (but then that's IRL)
It makes no real difference to me if those items for sale are 'novelty' items. If I can't get them by playing the game, I don't want others getting them by paying more. And, no, ridiculous grinds to get cash items are not 'playing the game.'
'Fun' items don't matter? I don't know what you are playing for, but fun is my reason.
I really DO understand your reasoning with this, it's just that...a lot of different things are fun. I can have fun with getting any ingame vanity pet, and actually...I've really been tickled with ones I had to work at to GET. It made them more special to me. But we're all different. If you struggle with frustration from not being able to "keep up with the Joneses," so to speak, in having superfluous items, because to you they show some sort of "status," then yes....it would cut into the "fun" aspect, I guess. That does make sense.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
There doesn't always need to be a cause.
Where were the people when companies were trying to rent you your music? Some companies wanted people to pay for subs so that they could listen to the entirety of that company's catalog. you dont' own your music you rent it. Of course I'm old fashioned and buy hard copies of all my music. The idea of paying for music monthly is not to my taste.
Or to a certain extent, Sattelite radio. You pay a sub and you listen to the radio sans commercials. oh wait! Cable TV was like that once!
And now, you can pay for your subscription but if you want the good movies you need to pay a la carte.
People don't seem to be up in arms over that. Oh I'm sure there are people who don't sub to sattelite radio or Cable TV but most people I know don't get angry at the thought of either. Not everybody thinks it's horrible because not everybody is going to need/want to own their own movies/music.
Not everybody is going to think that paying for fluff items or extra character slots is an issue. Especially because they don't really think of these games as just "games".
It's not like it was a game like chess where you get all the pieces but for an extra dollar you can get an extra Queen. They are more about socializing and experiencing the content.
So sure, others are probably old fashioned as well and I understand that. But it's not going to be an issue for everyone because they probably don't see the big deal. I certainly don't. If someone wants to buy a cosmetic item or an extra teleport to town then I really won't lose any sleep over it. I just don't care.
The only time it's an issue is if there is player vs player competition. I'm afraid I can't get on board with pve competition between players as that really has no merit with me and I don't see being the first to take down a boss as anything of value.
But if one is buying advantages in a pure pvp game, then that to me is an issue.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Define "necessary'.
As for that furniture - don't you think it should be available to be earned in-game?
You say players have a choice whether to buy it or not - well we live in the real world, and some people have more disposible income than others. You're really okay with grinding players' faces in the fact that they are too poor to buy novelty items in a multiplayer game? A lot of players use games to get away from the real world.
To ME necessary means needful for succeeding in the game, and being competitive in combat. If it's just a vanity item that doesn't change the way I can fight....it's not necessary, it's superficial.
There is a shit ton of furniture available via questing AND crafting in EQ2, and it's beautiful stuff. I have loads of it.
The items I bought, actually "replaced" some things that were stolen by a guy that I allowed to "share" my house with me. (I will NEVER EVER do that again.) And I didn't feel like re-crafting a few of the items, so...I just bought a few things, that while not being as nice as the crafted stuff I had, would at least fill up the space in my room that USED to have my nice crafted stuff in it. It was my living room furniture, so....it was kind of important (to me) to fill that space. It cost me 10 dollars and made me feel not NEAR so bad about losing the other stuff, because...my living room at least looked DECENT again.
But...what you said in the second paragraph....I kind of understand because of what someone else posted that I just responded to....and NO, I, personally, do not ever want to make anyone feel sad, or poor, or inferior in any way. It actually saddens me to think about that. However, I'm not sure that feelings of inferiority aren't maybe something that needs to be dealt with outside of the game, rather than expecting other people to be concerned with it. After all....I'M also playing to have fun...and in the same way curbing your fun for MY benefit seems rude and selfish....it can also be seen the other way around. So...to be honest....I just have no good answer for this.
But no...I do NOT like other people to FEEL bad. So...I'm kind of conflicted on this now....thanks....thanks a lot. 
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
The key factor for me is if it RELEASES with cash shop. Because if it is, it has been designed with cash shop on top of sub in mind. If you look at STO for example, you see a far from finished released MMO, but apparently they had enough time to design a cashshop and items for that. Think about that.
Its basically saying, you get minimum effort for sub and full package for sub+cashshop. No matter whats sold in the cashshop, it takes dev time.
No I won't.
I don't support the cash shop + subscription model.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
Single player games.
No, it's not about keeping up with the Joneses. Not for me, anyway.
I'll give an example:
It's my understanding that one of the several pre-order deals available allowed the purchaser to use the uniforms from the original Star Trek series. Now - while I am a fan of the IP in general, and favourite episodes from each - TOS is by far, my favourite series overall. It would greatly enhance my fun to have my crew using those uniforms. Rather than have them available in-game, Cryptic chose to use them to sell pre-orders. They might well add them to the cash shop later, or they might have put there instead of using them for a sales gimmick. Either way, I don't get to enjoy something which should have been included in the game outright.
Those uniforms don't give any play advantage, other than making the game more fun for fans of TOS. When a company has the option of selling something for extra money - guess which choice they will make? Every item they create will be judged whether it will go into the game, or into the cash shop. That is a negative for the players.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I am sorry. It's not an easy life being a good person. I can tell you care about people from posts you have made on other topics, and say that I genuinely appreciate those who care about others. That is why I am here, trying to keep games as enjoyable and fair as possible.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I learned my lesson with Champions, and this particular slippery slope is greased with tallow. I thought I was fine with pay2showoff, but it soon became pay for everything.
Cryptic is trying a Customer Development approach to MMO creation.
If TOR has open world, non instanced large scale PvP, I might play it. If TOR has open world, non instanced, large scale raiding I might play it.
The cash shop has little to do with whether or not I choose to the play the game. If its fun, I will play it, even if it costs me more money than the normal monthly sub...as long as its fun.
A cash shop to me is not much different than those uber raids that take twenty people and ten hours to complete for uber loot, they both require a much larger commitment than I'm willing to make one in time the other in money so I personally will still be playing (just like I'm willing to bet half the people who voted no will do) and I really only say that because we are fast moving towards every single mmo on the market having a cash shop and since so many of them put up with lies by companies like FC and SOE I doubt many of them will be quitting the games all together anytime soon.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
No, it's not about keeping up with the Joneses. Not for me, anyway.
I'll give an example:
It's my understanding that one of the several pre-order deals available allowed the purchaser to use the uniforms from the original Star Trek series. Now - while I am a fan of the IP in general, and favourite episodes from each - TOS is by far, my favourite series overall. It would greatly enhance my fun to have my crew using those uniforms. Rather than have them available in-game, Cryptic chose to use them to sell pre-orders. They might well add them to the cash shop later, or they might have put there instead of using them for a sales gimmick. Either way, I don't get to enjoy something which should have been included in the game outright.
Those uniforms don't give any play advantage, other than making the game more fun for fans of TOS. When a company has the option of selling something for extra money - guess which choice they will make? Every item they create will be judged whether it will go into the game, or into the cash shop. That is a negative for the players.
Oh I can REALLY see your point now, when you put in light of an IP like Star Trek, and since the thread IS about Star WARS....the possibility for it being equally detrimental in that way....does indeed exist.
I wasn't really thinking about how the effects can actually differ from IP to IP, but....this is a good example of how that really CAN be a factor in whether RMT can affect your level of actual FUN. Wow. I honestly never thought of this.....
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
No, it's not about keeping up with the Joneses. Not for me, anyway.
I'll give an example:
It's my understanding that one of the several pre-order deals available allowed the purchaser to use the uniforms from the original Star Trek series. Now - while I am a fan of the IP in general, and favourite episodes from each - TOS is by far, my favourite series overall. It would greatly enhance my fun to have my crew using those uniforms. Rather than have them available in-game, Cryptic chose to use them to sell pre-orders. They might well add them to the cash shop later, or they might have put there instead of using them for a sales gimmick. Either way, I don't get to enjoy something which should have been included in the game outright.
Those uniforms don't give any play advantage, other than making the game more fun for fans of TOS. When a company has the option of selling something for extra money - guess which choice they will make? Every item they create will be judged whether it will go into the game, or into the cash shop. That is a negative for the players.
My biggest problem with your example is that you mention one itme that really doesn't cost anyone any more money, if you pre ordered the game you pay the same price as if you waited til the day of release. Your argument really only affects a person who felt the need to have multiple pre order vanity items and in that case if you can't make a decision between one or the other maybe one is keeping up with the Joneses wether they know it or not.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
1 - I honestly forgot which thread I was replying in, as I am involved in three or so discussions at this time.
2 - imagine if this new SW game was set in the time of the original trilogy and players could fly fighters on the rebel side. Imagine if X-Wings were only available in the cash shop, and others had to make do with Y-Wings (which were functionally identical). Imagine if Luke and Vader had individual Lightsabre colour, and those were only in the cash shop.
It is very easy to offer 'vanity' items that have a very high cool factor, while not affecting game play in a competitive sense.
I am trying out Fallen Earth currently, and just spent enough skill points to be able to wear a certain type of hat. Not for the stats, but for the look. Appearances are important in an RPG. One is playing a character, and the look is important to a role-player.
You know what I mean. I'm just giving other examples for the other readers.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
As I said - it could just as easily been put into the cash shop, instead. It might well go there later on.
Either way, it is being used to increase profits/early sales, rather than being put into the game as something to be earned (by playing the game).
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
1 - I honestly forgot which thread I was replying in, as I am involved in three or so discussions at this time.
2 - imagine if this new SW game was set in the time of the original trilogy and players could fly fighters on the rebel side. Imagine if X-Wings were only available in the cash shop, and others had to make do with Y-Wings (which were functionally identical). Imagine if Luke and Vader had individual Lightsabre colour, and those were only in the cash shop.
It is very easy to offer 'vanity' items that have a very high cool factor, while not affecting game play in a competitive sense.
I am trying out Fallen Earth currently, and just spent enough skill points to be able to wear a certain type of hat. Not for the stats, but for the look. Appearances are important in an RPG. One is playing a character, and the look is important to a role-player.
You know what I mean. I'm just giving other examples for the other readers.
Funny you would mention light sabre colors as this is what came to mind when thinking of what a cash shop in this game might contain. The mmo industry is really leaving a bad smell the last few years. Blind preorders which amount to paid beta, lifetime subscriptions for games not released and cash shops all contribute to the smell. Some congratulate WOW for bringing the masses to MMO's and now we are seeing how the game companies are milking the masses. I see no future for me in this hobby.
1 - I honestly forgot which thread I was replying in, as I am involved in three or so discussions at this time.
I can relate...lol!
2 - imagine if this new SW game was set in the time of the original trilogy and players could fly fighters on the rebel side. Imagine if X-Wings were only available in the cash shop, and others had to make do with Y-Wings (which were functionally identical). Imagine if Luke and Vader had individual Lightsabre colour, and those were only in the cash shop.
It is very easy to offer 'vanity' items that have a very high cool factor, while not affecting game play in a competitive sense.
I am trying out Fallen Earth currently, and just spent enough skill points to be able to wear a certain type of hat. Not for the stats, but for the look. Appearances are important in an RPG. One is playing a character, and the look is important to a role-player.
You know what I mean. I'm just giving other examples for the other readers.
LOL...I just did the same thing not too long ago to be able to equip a weapon I thought looked very CHOTA-esque in Fallen Earth, and I too, am an RP'er....so I TOTALLY get this.
Actually, Fallen Earth sort of makes a good argument for allowing customization withOUT RMT (at least so far). Spending your AP that you earn from crafting and questing, etc, to put yourself in different armor "brackets" essentially. I mean, yes the gear has stats, it's meant for fighting, but you're not spending real world money to customize your look, you're working for it in game. The cool thing they've done, is to make MANY unique "looks" of gear for every level of skill upgrade. We could have the same skill level in armor use and have completely different looking gear. That probably makes no sense to anyone not playing FE, but....anyway....it's probably one more reason I like the game...I don't HAVE to look like everyone else...AND...it doesn't cost me extra money.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I am not optimistic in the short term, but I do think that eventually a critical mass of consumers will become jaded enough that the whole industry has a die-off like video games in the early '80s did. After that, devs will be less lazy and deceptive. At least for a while. Console games seem to be sliding quite a bit in quality the last few years. I haven't even been tempted to buy a next-gen console, despite owning a PSX, PS2, PSP, and Gamecube.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I shudder to think what kind of commitment It will take to make a motorcycle. I rode for about thirty years (RL) in some form, and Thomas Dolby wants to ride again!
Currently riding 'Miss Akimoto', my starter horse.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I shudder to think what kind of commitment It will take to make a motorcycle. I rode for about thirty years (RL) in some form, and Thomas Dolby wants to ride again!
Currently riding 'Miss Akimoto', my starter horse.
HAHA....funny you should bring up motorcycles...I JUST started working on building mine! OMG...the amount of mats is...a TRIP. So far I've only made 2 parts and I have a LOT more to make. Each part takes about 6 hours to craft. O.O Thank the gaming gods we can queue the crafting and log off or go to SLEEP....lol.
You probably know that to make the motorcycles you need to do the ATV Quest, make an ATV and DO NOT USE THE KEY....you need it to make the research book for motorcycles! You can always make another ATV if you like. I have an ATV too, but it's a gas hog and I'm not all that hip on worrying with fuel. Even my horse is an upgraded one that doesn't have to eat....I just throw an occasional refresh or fortify on it and never EVER has it had to eat. lol
Anyway....we're kinda derailin' the thread on Fallen Earth stuff, but....message me here and I'll let you know my name in game. Would love to know who you are too! =D
Cheers!
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I am not optimistic in the short term, but I do think that eventually a critical mass of consumers will become jaded enough that the whole industry has a die-off like video games in the early '80s did. After that, devs will be less lazy and deceptive. At least for a while. Console games seem to be sliding quite a bit in quality the last few years. I haven't even been tempted to buy a next-gen console, despite owning a PSX, PS2, PSP, and Gamecube.
Im enjoying my PS3 and think perhaps I have come full circle back to consoles. I too have a PS2, Gamecube and original Xbox. Picked up the PS3 a couple of weeks ago. One thing consoles have going for them is there are no compatibility issues. If the game is made for your console, it will run on your console with no driver or hardware issues.