It's not "unfair" that people with more time to play, or with more time played overall, have made more progress... It's *common sense*. If you want to compete with the end-gamers... then play the game, develop your character and improve...
Well that might work in the themepark mmo you came from, but it doesn`t work for a ffa full-loot pvp mmo like Darkfall. I don`t have to tell you I`m right anymore, the subscriber numbers will do that for me. Darkfall is an empty shell of a game after almost a year, and there is NO sign ut will ever increase.
I'm sure people said the same thing about Eve back when it first launched. In fact, given the tendency of many people around here to call just about anything a failure for any given reason, valid or otherwise, I'd guarantee plenty of people said it.
As for the themepark MMO I come from? Well let's see, I've played and continue to play, on and off...
Ryzom - sandbox
FFXI - themepark/sandbox hybrid
Darkfall - sandbox
Fallen Earth - sandbox
Eve Online - sandbox
DAoC - Themepark
EQ 1 and 2 - Themepark
... and many more.
I enjoy both styles of gameplay. In every single one of those MMOs, despite their style or design, the people with more time played and/or more time to play had more developed characters. Period. It's common-sense. If you want to hit the ground being more "equal" to longer-time players, then I suggest a game that caters more to that style... perhaps Planetside.
Here's the trick... I play each MMO in the spirit it was designed and don't worry about how quickly I can catch up with and "beat" the Joneses.
The only....I repeat....THE ONLY reason Darkfall failed as an mmo was the grind. We don`t get any new pvpers and we don`t have any casual players. You are right, Darkfall is a niche game. It`s a niche game for players with the time to play 5-15 hours EVERY day.
It's failed? Funny... I'm pretty sure it's still online, still playable and people are still subbing and checking it out... Oh... you mean it fails for *you*. Well.. yeah... There's a lot of people who have left or don't play it for one reason or another. So what? As long as it has a playerbase and AV makes enough money to continue supporting and developing it (which it seems like they are).. then it's not a failure - your personal diagnosis notwithstanding.
Jesus, I`m amazed you guys don`t see that this is wrong.
I'm not surprised you're amazed, given the incredibly narrow and self-serving point-of-view you demonstrate.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You do realize that the vast majority of gamers cannot possibly invest the kind of time you put into the game right? If having your character logged in and doing something nearly 24-hours per day is really what is required to be successful, no wonder this game is bleeding subscribers... I guess those of us with jobs outside of the house are not hardcore enough.
I understand that you're feeling peeved but look at it this way. There are always going to be people better than you in life, at sports, crosswords, dancing and video games. You do the best you can with what you have, there's no point bearing a grudge or having a chip on your shoulder because someone gets more time to train or is just plain better.
Just do your best and take satisfaction in that, you can't go toe to toe with a 1 year vet? Then get a few buddies and roll him, this is darkfall not some shitty arena or duel. I'm a fucking no lifer and I can't go toe to toe with any veteran PvPers and win! It's like bitching that Micheal Schummaker beat me because he gets more time to drive cars than I do. At some point you just have to accept that this guy is better and probably always will be, so you've got to wait around and maybe be there on the day he fucks up and then take him. That or party up and school him and grab his loot.
This is how these games used to be and in my opinion should be, I don't want everyone to be on a level footing playing some lame rock/paper/scissors game. If I wanted that I'd still be subscribed to AoC! Alot of people just can't handle it that they can't be counted amongst the elite with everyone else after 2 weeks of casual play and a visit to the item shop. Bruised egos turn to jealousy, jealousy turns to hatred and hatred turns to /rage quit.
I don't want this game changed to be like all the other rock/paper/scissors button mashers with instant 1337ness and victory handed on a plate. I want to play an MMORPG again.
But that's just it... they don't win because they are better than me. They win because they have a synthetic advantage in terms of stats and character skills. I am quite confident I would pwn some of these people if the playing field was more level. And I can't help but be frustrated that I will probably never overcome the handicap.
And when I say the game is bleeding subscribers, I mean that out of 4 people who joined the game (me and 3 rl friends), I am the only one left. We also met a few people in game who we grouped with frequently and guess what... they have all quit too. I am the only one left and I too am starting to have my doubts about the game for the reasons I have already mentioned. When 4 people join together and only 1 is left after nearly 3 months, that to me seems like bleeding subscribers. And we were all very enthusiastic when we started. We had all been waiting for a hardcore full-loot FFA MMO for YEARS.
In the end, all of them quit for the same reason... they just couldn't handle the grind in addition to their rl responsibilities. Can you really blame them?
So you've been waiting for a hardcore full-loot FFA MMO, but you can't handle the grind? If the game had no grind and it was easy to get veteran status.. you would basically be playing a shooter or an arena or something. This is a game that simulates the need to train and skill yourself up in preparation for battles. YES, I get absolutely frustrated when a guy 3 shots me in PvP and I can't do anything to him, but then I just go back and train some more afterwards and attempt to get myself back up there.. that's how he did it and that's how everyone should have to. Part of the reason that this game is 'hardcore' is because there is a grind to get what you want. There's a grind for gold, reagents, armor, skills, spells and weapons, and for alot of people that is a huge turn off, but it's the fact that this system gives you a strong feeling of character development and progression.. the way an MMORPG should.
I'm a casual player and have high archery skills. As a casual player I contribute greatly in group play. R40 bow I'm doing 30 front damage 40-50 back damage to top geared opponents. I don't expect to compete one on one with vets because it's not a single player game and they put more time into the development of their character.
I also don't grind, I just play and do different things everyday. I am having the time of my life. This is the best MMO I have ever played and I have played them all.
I disagree 100%, I don't think the grind is too much for an MMORPG. I mean no one is putting a loaded pistol to your head and forcing you to do it are they? So you macro now and still complain about the grind despite cheating? What's the world coming to? It's like someone having dinner made for them then complaining about how long it took to wait! You do nothing, reap the benefits and then complain how long it took!
Not enough PvPers? Have you seen this video I made of last weekends siege? Click. On NA-1 there will be 6-9 sieges being dropped today, what is it about gamers today? An almost infantile sense of entitlement and holding bitter grudges against those that have earned the privelige of having certain skills and abilities. Why are you guys full of this terrible jealousy towards others? It really is very childish and especially distasteful to see adults displaying such infantile traits.
Get in a clan, you need armour there'll be a crafter you can buy it from. How is this different to anyother MMORPG? There is no requirement to grind smithing, Tasos isn't holding your wife and kids to ransom and forcing you to learn the skills is he?
What do you mean "got fucked up by an insane grind for level"? The grind as you put has been reduced, skills are now faster to learn than ever before. At what point did it become "fucked up" exactly?
You want stats because you think it'll make you competitive, when in fact high stats or not you can compete with a mastery in one two handed weapon and sharp shooter. Darkfall is hard to be competitive in no matter what your stats, it takes twitch skills and that is a fact. You may not have those skills and there will always be others better than you, but whining about it and crying for AV to throw you a crutch is just silly and quite frankly it got old two months ago,
Stat whining is just sooooooo 2009!
/applaud and I agree; nice to see someone else touching on that topic
Extremely well said Agricola.
You make Gary proud.
There's nothing unfair with people who've been playing longer being farther along than someone who just started. There really is a tinge of jealousy to the idea that someone who started months after someone else feels they should be entitled a faster/easier track to "catch up" and are being discriminated against or being treated unfairly or something if they can't. There is a point in a MMO where diminishing returns kicks in... at some point, the degree of difference between you and a more "experience" player is going to become narrower and narrower.
Looking at it from the other side... How fair would it be to the people who spent all those months getting their characters to where they are, if a brand-new player could just waltz in and be caught up to them within a few weeks?
My advice: Stop worrying about where everyone else is, or what everyone else has, etc. etc. Play the damn game, enjoy the progression, and you'll get there... just like they did. I think people would enjoy themself a lot more if they stopped comparing where they are to those who are much farther along. Or, if they can't, then perhaps they should reconsider whether they've chosen the right game.
After all, why play a game you can't enjoy on terms you're not satisfied with? As usual... "you" is meant in general, not at anyone in particular.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You know, after re-reading this thread, i have conviced myself to give this game another go, and I'm downloading it now.
I've been playing one of those other games, and its just too dull, and predictable. I don't have a lot of time to commit to this game right now, but i will soon enough i suppose. It just seems to me, i'd rather be a crafter in Darkfall, than a hero in those other games. It's just more exciting. I figure it will be better to get started now, than 2 months from now.
So, for the time being, I'll work on my stats, and skills, slowly, and train sprint... a lot ....
You know, after re-reading this thread, i have conviced myself to give this game another go, and I'm downloading it now.
I've been playing one of those other games, and its just too dull, and predictable. I don't have a lot of time to commit to this game right now, but i will soon enough i suppose. It just seems to me, i'd rather be a crafter in Darkfall, than a hero in those other games. It's just more exciting. I figure it will be better to get started now, than 2 months from now. So, for the time being, I'll work on my stats, and skills, slowly, and train sprint... a lot ....
If you're on EU-1 and interested in joining a clan send me a pm or got to the mag site in my sig and apply on the darkfall recruitment forums.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
You know, after re-reading this thread, i have conviced myself to give this game another go, and I'm downloading it now.
I've been playing one of those other games, and its just too dull, and predictable. I don't have a lot of time to commit to this game right now, but i will soon enough i suppose. It just seems to me, i'd rather be a crafter in Darkfall, than a hero in those other games. It's just more exciting. I figure it will be better to get started now, than 2 months from now. So, for the time being, I'll work on my stats, and skills, slowly, and train sprint... a lot ....
If you're on EU-1 and interested in joining a clan send me a pm or got to the mag site in my sig and apply on the darkfall recruitment forums.
I'd certainly take you up on that offer, but I'm on NA unfortunetly
I quit due to the macros and exploiters. I survived watching all the hardcore players bloodwall for months on end simply because I was in an awesome guild so the social aspects got me through. The people macroing spells and swimming into a dock pillar for days on end finally got to me. I refuse to do any of those things to keep up with the curve. Is not and never will be worth my time.
Oh and as per the QQ replies; I ran an upper tier CounterStrike team for 5 years so my lack fps skills had nothing to do with me pulling the plug.
Valid reasons, but just to inform you: today's Darkfall is a LOT different. I played back then too, and this is a totally different game.
You're better off training against mobs now....and it's actually worth it. I make thousands of gold, and get some decent gear and regs off mobs each night...and my skills are leveling SO unbelievably fast compared to the old days.
There's really no more bloodwalling, or macroing to speak of. And 'sploiters are banned FAST these days. Hell, even swimming under a dock will get you a 3-day warning ban now.
As for the themepark MMO I come from? Well let's see, I've played and continue to play, on and off...
Haha, my mistake. I mixed up themepark with mmo you can get killed 1000 times a day without losing anything ( EVE is a bit different but it still had 1.0 security, clones and insurance when I played).
My point is still valid and the number will show I`m right. The huge grind in a ffa full-loot mmo is devastating for a game as Darkfall. The sad part is other devs will look at the number of players in DF and think none likes a sandbox with full-loot. They will continue to make boring wow clone to be able to make some bucks.
Now back to the numbers of EU1. We so far registered 1583 active players in a clan. I know those numbers are not valid, but come on it`s still dangerously low. Even if we tripple those number, we`ll still have less than 5k on a server made to hold 40 k. My personal guess is that we have about 2.5 k active players on EU1. If AV made Darkfall available to casual players and pvpers, we would have 50-100 k players and not 10k like today.
And Agricola, I was at that siege. That was a siege that included 3 of the biggest alliances on EU1, and we had less than 300 players. I`m amazed you can see the problem with those numbers. And it not like you guys will lose your precious grind if they increase the level, stat and skill gain. I play with and against players with gear worth more than 100k gp. Gear, ships, siege weapons etc. is what we are suppose to grind for in a full-loot mmo, not levels. That would give Darkfall the risk vs reward it deserve.
For the record, I like Darkfall and play it every day. I just wish we had more high level players so we can have more of the fun battles we all enjoy.
If you want a chance at start new character owning vets, go play guildwars or wow where dont have risk losing anything.
In darkfall you have to work for your skills and earn status if players build there character for 6 months its logic they own all newplayers.
PLus fact that this game is with full loot there should be no system where you can own right at start.
Join clan go into world with mates you back you up.
If you can't take this beating by vets then Darkfall aint for you simple as that.
Darkfall is already way to easy for my taste its been nerfed already considrable of last 8 months.
But still if your a true free for all pvpers you keep going and fight to survive and dont come to forums whine how hard it is as a new player, thats exclusif for carebears and they play WoW hehe.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I quit due to the macros and exploiters. I survived watching all the hardcore players bloodwall for months on end simply because I was in an awesome guild so the social aspects got me through. The people macroing spells and swimming into a dock pillar for days on end finally got to me. I refuse to do any of those things to keep up with the curve. Is not and never will be worth my time.
Oh and as per the QQ replies; I ran an upper tier CounterStrike team for 5 years so my lack fps skills had nothing to do with me pulling the plug.
Valid reasons, but just to inform you: today's Darkfall is a LOT different. I played back then too, and this is a totally different game.
You're better off training against mobs now....and it's actually worth it. I make thousands of gold, and get some decent gear and regs off mobs each night...and my skills are leveling SO unbelievably fast compared to the old days.
There's really no more bloodwalling, or macroing to speak of. And 'sploiters are banned FAST these days. Hell, even swimming under a dock will get you a 3-day warning ban now.
Ive not macro/exploit/hack 1 sec in Darkfall im 11months solo(left clans becouse of macro 24hrs)and still manage to accomplish and own some offcorse i been owned more im solo after all, but its posible just make sure you have FUN nomatter how you play.
Macro/exploit/cheating is not fun most who do that leave after while becouse they get bored.
Play natural and honest, Darkfall is a AWESOME GAME.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I love how all of you morons decided to not even address the OPs suggestion. Melipone's suggestion, in which the concept of his suggestion is shown HERE is what Aventurine needs to do.
- it decreases the gap between new players and veterans to a reasonable extent
- it provides newer players with a greater "sense" of character progression early on, keeping more new players in game
- it would allow players to get into PvP scenarios and have a sense of survivability earlier on, placing less people in newbie spawns grinding their souls away, and more people out PvPing
- it DOES NOT take away any of the grind, WHATSOEVER
- it DOES NOT take away character progression
- it STILL provides that "carrot on the stick" for veterans to work towards
- it STILL provides veterans with a very noticeable character advantage in game, and WOULD NOT take away all the work they've put towards those advantages
- it DOES NOT, in any sense at all, make the game easy mode or cater to instant gratification
So, now that this thread is back on topic, someone actually DEBATE why that suggestion is a bad one and shouldn't be implemented. I have yet to see a good counterargument towards it.
I love how all of you morons decided to not even address the OPs suggestion. Melipone's suggestion, in which the concept of his suggestion is shown HERE is what Aventurine needs to do.
- it decreases the gap between new players and veterans to a reasonable extent - it provides newer players with a greater "sense" of character progression early on, keeping more new players in game - it would allow players to get into PvP scenarios and have a sense of survivability earlier on, placing less people in newbie spawns grinding their souls away, and more people out PvPing - it DOES NOT take away any of the grind, WHATSOEVER - it DOES NOT take away character progression - it STILL provides that "carrot on the stick" for veterans to work towards - it STILL provides veterans with a very noticeable character advantage in game, and WOULD NOT take away all the work they've put towards those advantages - it DOES NOT, in any sense at all, make the game easy mode or cater to instant gratification
So, now that this thread is back on topic, someone actually DEBATE why that suggestion is a bad one and shouldn't be implemented. I have yet to see a good counterargument towards it.
Actualy that's how it is now, stat gains go up much quicker at first then start to level off as you get higher stats. That first graph is completely fictious, just a straight linear line that is more a representation of how he feels it is and then how he'd like it to feel.
The fact is stat gains are exactly like the proposed sandbox graph already, just he wants it even faster!
As Disraeli said "There are lies, damn lies then there are statistics"?
This guy pulled some statistics/charts/whatever out of his butt because he QQs himself to sleep whenever he gets killed mining outside a starter city naked!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
I looked at the graphs and I play DFO. I say that in my opinion just because some guy draws up a graph on Microsoft paint doesn't mean it is factual. I go on to say that my experience in game does not support the graph that he drew on his comp which is not supported with any figures or references to any kind of data gathered.
So in short I say those graphs are in my opinion bologne and if you got 400hp at 50 vit what would the repercussion be in DFO? I say subs would go down you say up well I see no data to support up so why do it. You're asking for the second NGE in my opinion.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on that since any further discussion of the subject would just result in pointless bickering.
Agricola
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
So in short I say those graphs are in my opinion bologne and if you got 400hp at 50 vit what would the repercussion be in DFO? I say subs would go down you say up well I see no data to support up so why do it.
Well I disagree with you Agri.
There is no reliable data to support your claim about possible drop in subs
Actualy that's how it is now, stat gains go up much quicker at first then start to level off as you get higher stats. That first graph is completely fictious, just a straight linear line that is more a representation of how he feels it is and then how he'd like it to feel.
The fact is stat gains are exactly like the proposed sandbox graph already, just he wants it even faster!
As Disraeli said "There are lies, damn lies then there are statistics"?
This guy pulled some statistics/charts/whatever out of his butt because he QQs himself to sleep whenever he gets killed mining outside a starter city naked!
Wow.... I can't believe you actually think that. Do you not have the ability to read a graph?
Hell, I'll even break it down for you since you're obviously clueless about what these graphs are representing.
The first graph shows a LINEAR PROGRESSION ON THE AFFECTS ON YOUR CHARACTER, which is EXACTLY HOW IT IS NOW. Notice how at Strength/Vitality level 50 the character has around 275 HP?
The second graph shows a NON-LINEAR PROGRESSION ON THE AFFECTS ON YOUR CHARACTER, which is EXACTLY HOW IT IS NOT now. Notice how at Strength/Vitality level 50 the character has around 400 HP?
Do you get it now? Or do you want me to break it down even further? Sure, STAT PROGRESSION, i.e. the ability to raise stats, decrease dramatically as you get higher. This means, it's much easier to go from 31-32 in a stat than it is to go from 71-72.
THESE GRAPHS DON'T REPRESENT ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS.
Instead, the second graph shows how STATS AT LOWER LEVELS AFFECT YOUR CHARACTER MORE than STATS AT HIGHER LEVELS. Meaning, you'd gain MORE HP going from levels 31-32 than you would going from levels 71-72.
Do you understand now? You do? Good. Now explain why this is a bad idea and why it would make the game "carebear mode" or some bullshit.
The graph's point is moot. All its saying is to make 50str and vit = 350 instead of ~300HP. Stats already level up on that curve, their affect is linear. But the point is, 300 hp = competetive level against anyone. Once you hit 300 hp, someone having 100 more hp than you isn't going to make a drastic difference on your ability to kill them. All 100hp ammounts to is 2-4 extra hits. Yea really game breaking.
As for the skills you "unlock" based on your stats, almost all of them are worthless and the ones that are worth anything don't affect dmg/defense enough to matter (omg 5extra dps game braking omg).
I looked at the graphs and I play DFO. I say that in my opinion just because some guy draws up a graph on Microsoft paint doesn't mean it is factual. I go on to say that my experience in game does not support the graph that he drew on his comp which is not supported with any figures or references to any kind of data gathered. So in short I say those graphs are in my opinion bologne and if you got 400hp at 50 vit what would the repercussion be in DFO? I say subs would go down you say up well I see no data to support up so why do it. You're asking for the second NGE in my opinion. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that since any further discussion of the subject would just result in pointless bickering. Agricola
Well I go on to say that, unlike your 2 months in game or whatever it is, I've been here since EUROPEAN LAUNCH back on FEBRUARY 25TH , 2009.
So, you are completely wrong. It's not the NUMBERS of the graph that is what matters, it is the BASIC CONCEPT of the graphs that is important. You seem to keep wanting to avoid talking about the CONCEPT of the graph's suggestion, saying it's "bologne" numbers, when in reality, it is exactly what is going on now.
In Darkfall, RIGHT NOW, you gain the same amount of health going from STRENGTH LEVEL 31-32 as you do going from STRENGTH LEVEL 71-72. This is a FACT, you cannot deny this.
What the second graph is arguing, is that you should GAIN MORE BENEFITS (whether it be health, mana, stamina, etc), at the earlier levels, and GAIN LESS BENEFITS the higher you go. Thus, as you start as a new player, you gain much more noticeable benefits during early stage progression, which makes your character get a decent pool of HP, mana, stamina, regen, etc, more quickly earlier on. As you progress higher, STAT GAIN decreases dramatically (which is the case now), AND SO DOES THE BENEFITS. This means, that instead of having +250 health over a new player if you've been playing for a year, you'll have somewhere around +100-125 health.
You say you won't continue this argument because of pointless bickering, and yet you STILL HAVE NOT ADDRESSED THE SUGGESTION.
The graph's point is moot. All its saying is to make 50str and vit = 350 instead of ~300HP. Stats already level up on that curve, their affect is linear. But the point is, 300 hp = competetive level against anyone. Once you hit 300 hp, someone having 100 more hp than you isn't going to make a drastic difference on your ability to kill them. All 100hp ammounts to is 2-4 extra hits. Yea really game breaking.
As for the skills you "unlock" based on your stats, almost all of them are worthless and the ones that are worth anything don't affect dmg/defense enough to matter (omg 5extra dps game braking omg).
Jesus christ people, DON'T LOOK AT THE EXACT NUMBERS OF THE GRAPH, LOOK AT THE GOD DAMN CONCEPT IT IS TALKING ABOUT.
As it stands right now, THE BENEFITS YOU GAIN DURING STAT PROGRESSION ARE L I N E A R. Melipone, myself, and many others are arguing to make THE BENEFITS YOU GAIN DURING STAT PROGRESSION NON- L I N E A R.
So, I advocate that when you progress from strength level 31-32, YOU GAIN MORE BENEFIT TO YOUR CHARACTER than when you progress from strength level 71-72, as an example. My god, do you people really not understand these graphs?
*edit* In regards to the red, these graphs have NOTHING TO DO WITH TIME. Stats level up on a non-linear curve, but their benefits level up LINEARLY. The top graph in that link shows how STAT BENEFITS LEVEL UP LINEARLY. The bottom graph shows how STAT BENEFITS LEVEL UP NON-LINEARLY.
WE ARE SUPPORTING STATBENEFITS LEVELING UP NON-LINEARLY, NOT STAT LEVELS THEMSELVES.
But that's just it... they don't win because they are better than me. They win because they have a synthetic advantage in terms of stats and character skills. I am quite confident I would pwn some of these people if the playing field was more level. And I can't help but be frustrated that I will probably never overcome the handicap. And when I say the game is bleeding subscribers, I mean that out of 4 people who joined the game (me and 3 rl friends), I am the only one left. We also met a few people in game who we grouped with frequently and guess what... they have all quit too. I am the only one left and I too am starting to have my doubts about the game for the reasons I have already mentioned. When 4 people join together and only 1 is left after nearly 3 months, that to me seems like bleeding subscribers. And we were all very enthusiastic when we started. We had all been waiting for a hardcore full-loot FFA MMO for YEARS. In the end, all of them quit for the same reason... they just couldn't handle the grind in addition to their rl responsibilities. Can you really blame them?
So you've been waiting for a hardcore full-loot FFA MMO, but you can't handle the grind? If the game had no grind and it was easy to get veteran status.. you would basically be playing a shooter or an arena or something. This is a game that simulates the need to train and skill yourself up in preparation for battles. YES, I get absolutely frustrated when a guy 3 shots me in PvP and I can't do anything to him, but then I just go back and train some more afterwards and attempt to get myself back up there.. that's how he did it and that's how everyone should have to. Part of the reason that this game is 'hardcore' is because there is a grind to get what you want. There's a grind for gold, reagents, armor, skills, spells and weapons, and for alot of people that is a huge turn off, but it's the fact that this system gives you a strong feeling of character development and progression.. the way an MMORPG should.
I never said that I could not handle a grind. I have played almost every major MMO that has come out and I have attained max level in many of them. The problem in DFO is that this is not possible in any remotely reasonable period of time. To reach the point where NO ONE has a level advantage over you in Darkfall, you would literally have to grind non-stop for a year. THAT is what I consider to be ridiculous and unreasonable. I have already spent MUCH more time grinding than I feel should be necessary to reach the best part of the game.
I play these games for PvP. Not completely imbalanced PvP... I'm talking about the kind of PvP where you know that your opponent is at your same level of character skill and that the outcome of the fight is entirely dependent on your own personal skill and strategy. You can reach this level in a reasonable amount of time in most other MMOs. Just get to max level and you're there. This is almost entirely lacking from Darkfall since characters are so completely imbalanced against each other. Even after you have played the same amount of time as it would to reach max level in MOST other games, your character will still be a complete noob in Darkfall compared to much older players. By its very design, this makes true balance in combat impossible.
The best PvP moments I have had in MMO gaming were when I faced off against enemies who were at the same character skill (or level) as me. That is where my own personal skill really comes in. If I win, I know that it was because I played better than my opponent, not because I have twice as many hitpoints and more magic skills than him. What is fun about a hardcore PvP game when no one is ever truly on a level playing field?? It only makes it so that the older players have a permanent advantage over the newer ones. As far as I can tell, the only time it is ever truly even in Darkfall is when two brand new players fight. This is a major design flaw in my opinion...
Clearly many of you disagree with me, but I don't care. It is obvious that you prefer the game to be super grind-heavy. I can only imagine this is because you stuck it out since the beginning and now your character rarely lose against most players in 1v1. It is undoubtedly hard to think about possibly losing that advantage once you have it. However, without more balanced gameplay, this game will not hold my interest. I am simply not willing to continue being majorly handicapped versus older players after having already played HARD for months.
And to answer your questions Agricola, I am not the type of player who enjoys standing behind a large guild for PvP. Anyone can be part of a zerg, but that doesn't mean that you are actually contributing in any real way. I prefer smaller encounters where I am fully in control of the outcome. No game can truly be a hardcore PvP game in my opinion without some semblance of balance. Darkfall simply does not have that in my opinion.
And to answer your questions Agricola, I am not the type of player who enjoys standing behind a large guild for PvP. Anyone can be part of a zerg, but that doesn't mean that you are actually contributing in any real way (without him, and others like him there would be no zerg, sieges or players for that matter so he is in fact contributing in a real way). I prefer smaller encounters where I am fully in control of the outcome (Darkfall has that as well). No game can truly be a hardcore PvP game in my opinion without some semblance of balance (This is not an arena game, it is an MMORPG. It is not a battleground instance. That is a horrible invention so shame on you for even mentioning it as being superior to open world pvp). Darkfall simply does not have that in my opinion. For shame!
It appears you are looking for instanced pvp. You have the wrong game.
And to answer your questions Agricola, I am not the type of player who enjoys standing behind a large guild for PvP. Anyone can be part of a zerg, but that doesn't mean that you are actually contributing in any real way (without him, and others like him there would be no zerg, sieges or players for that matter so he is in fact contributing in a real way). I prefer smaller encounters where I am fully in control of the outcome (Darkfall has that as well). No game can truly be a hardcore PvP game in my opinion without some semblance of balance (This is not an arena game, it is an MMORPG. It is not a battleground instance. That is a horrible invention so shame on you for even mentioning it as being superior to open world pvp). Darkfall simply does not have that in my opinion. For shame!
It appears you are looking for instanced pvp. You have the wrong game.
Instanced PVP!?!? What the hell are you talking about? Its like you fanboys only read the sentences you choose to read and ignore the rest. Any sort of criticism for your holy grail of a game immediately equals "give me everything now! make it like WOW!!". You don't even listen to the logical arguments.
I am talking about how the PvP was in games like UO where all my enemy guilds were populated by players with the same skill cap as me. We were all even because the game ALLOWED that to occur. The same can be said in DAOC, AC, SB, etc. None of which were instanced PvP games (at least back in the day... can't say what they are now). I am not talking about necessarily having balanced numbers of opponents... but I am talking about reaching a point at which MOST players are not handicapped against each other. You pretty much can never reach this point in Darkfall unless you grind for a year straight... and even then you will be handicapped versus those who have been grinding for more than year. That is the balance I am referring to... and it is a balance you can find in almost every other PvP-centric MMO in a reasonable amount of time.
Comments
Well that might work in the themepark mmo you came from, but it doesn`t work for a ffa full-loot pvp mmo like Darkfall. I don`t have to tell you I`m right anymore, the subscriber numbers will do that for me. Darkfall is an empty shell of a game after almost a year, and there is NO sign ut will ever increase.
I'm sure people said the same thing about Eve back when it first launched. In fact, given the tendency of many people around here to call just about anything a failure for any given reason, valid or otherwise, I'd guarantee plenty of people said it.
As for the themepark MMO I come from? Well let's see, I've played and continue to play, on and off...
Ryzom - sandbox
FFXI - themepark/sandbox hybrid
Darkfall - sandbox
Fallen Earth - sandbox
Eve Online - sandbox
DAoC - Themepark
EQ 1 and 2 - Themepark
... and many more.
I enjoy both styles of gameplay. In every single one of those MMOs, despite their style or design, the people with more time played and/or more time to play had more developed characters. Period. It's common-sense. If you want to hit the ground being more "equal" to longer-time players, then I suggest a game that caters more to that style... perhaps Planetside.
Here's the trick... I play each MMO in the spirit it was designed and don't worry about how quickly I can catch up with and "beat" the Joneses.
The only....I repeat....THE ONLY reason Darkfall failed as an mmo was the grind. We don`t get any new pvpers and we don`t have any casual players. You are right, Darkfall is a niche game. It`s a niche game for players with the time to play 5-15 hours EVERY day.
It's failed? Funny... I'm pretty sure it's still online, still playable and people are still subbing and checking it out... Oh... you mean it fails for *you*. Well.. yeah... There's a lot of people who have left or don't play it for one reason or another. So what? As long as it has a playerbase and AV makes enough money to continue supporting and developing it (which it seems like they are).. then it's not a failure - your personal diagnosis notwithstanding.
Jesus, I`m amazed you guys don`t see that this is wrong.
I'm not surprised you're amazed, given the incredibly narrow and self-serving point-of-view you demonstrate.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I understand that you're feeling peeved but look at it this way. There are always going to be people better than you in life, at sports, crosswords, dancing and video games. You do the best you can with what you have, there's no point bearing a grudge or having a chip on your shoulder because someone gets more time to train or is just plain better.
Just do your best and take satisfaction in that, you can't go toe to toe with a 1 year vet? Then get a few buddies and roll him, this is darkfall not some shitty arena or duel. I'm a fucking no lifer and I can't go toe to toe with any veteran PvPers and win! It's like bitching that Micheal Schummaker beat me because he gets more time to drive cars than I do. At some point you just have to accept that this guy is better and probably always will be, so you've got to wait around and maybe be there on the day he fucks up and then take him. That or party up and school him and grab his loot.
This is how these games used to be and in my opinion should be, I don't want everyone to be on a level footing playing some lame rock/paper/scissors game. If I wanted that I'd still be subscribed to AoC! Alot of people just can't handle it that they can't be counted amongst the elite with everyone else after 2 weeks of casual play and a visit to the item shop. Bruised egos turn to jealousy, jealousy turns to hatred and hatred turns to /rage quit.
I don't want this game changed to be like all the other rock/paper/scissors button mashers with instant 1337ness and victory handed on a plate. I want to play an MMORPG again.
But that's just it... they don't win because they are better than me. They win because they have a synthetic advantage in terms of stats and character skills. I am quite confident I would pwn some of these people if the playing field was more level. And I can't help but be frustrated that I will probably never overcome the handicap.
And when I say the game is bleeding subscribers, I mean that out of 4 people who joined the game (me and 3 rl friends), I am the only one left. We also met a few people in game who we grouped with frequently and guess what... they have all quit too. I am the only one left and I too am starting to have my doubts about the game for the reasons I have already mentioned. When 4 people join together and only 1 is left after nearly 3 months, that to me seems like bleeding subscribers. And we were all very enthusiastic when we started. We had all been waiting for a hardcore full-loot FFA MMO for YEARS.
In the end, all of them quit for the same reason... they just couldn't handle the grind in addition to their rl responsibilities. Can you really blame them?
So you've been waiting for a hardcore full-loot FFA MMO, but you can't handle the grind? If the game had no grind and it was easy to get veteran status.. you would basically be playing a shooter or an arena or something. This is a game that simulates the need to train and skill yourself up in preparation for battles. YES, I get absolutely frustrated when a guy 3 shots me in PvP and I can't do anything to him, but then I just go back and train some more afterwards and attempt to get myself back up there.. that's how he did it and that's how everyone should have to. Part of the reason that this game is 'hardcore' is because there is a grind to get what you want. There's a grind for gold, reagents, armor, skills, spells and weapons, and for alot of people that is a huge turn off, but it's the fact that this system gives you a strong feeling of character development and progression.. the way an MMORPG should.
I'm a casual player and have high archery skills. As a casual player I contribute greatly in group play. R40 bow I'm doing 30 front damage 40-50 back damage to top geared opponents. I don't expect to compete one on one with vets because it's not a single player game and they put more time into the development of their character.
I also don't grind, I just play and do different things everyday. I am having the time of my life. This is the best MMO I have ever played and I have played them all.
I disagree 100%, I don't think the grind is too much for an MMORPG. I mean no one is putting a loaded pistol to your head and forcing you to do it are they? So you macro now and still complain about the grind despite cheating? What's the world coming to? It's like someone having dinner made for them then complaining about how long it took to wait! You do nothing, reap the benefits and then complain how long it took!
Not enough PvPers? Have you seen this video I made of last weekends siege? Click. On NA-1 there will be 6-9 sieges being dropped today, what is it about gamers today? An almost infantile sense of entitlement and holding bitter grudges against those that have earned the privelige of having certain skills and abilities. Why are you guys full of this terrible jealousy towards others? It really is very childish and especially distasteful to see adults displaying such infantile traits.
Get in a clan, you need armour there'll be a crafter you can buy it from. How is this different to anyother MMORPG? There is no requirement to grind smithing, Tasos isn't holding your wife and kids to ransom and forcing you to learn the skills is he?
What do you mean "got fucked up by an insane grind for level"? The grind as you put has been reduced, skills are now faster to learn than ever before. At what point did it become "fucked up" exactly?
You want stats because you think it'll make you competitive, when in fact high stats or not you can compete with a mastery in one two handed weapon and sharp shooter. Darkfall is hard to be competitive in no matter what your stats, it takes twitch skills and that is a fact. You may not have those skills and there will always be others better than you, but whining about it and crying for AV to throw you a crutch is just silly and quite frankly it got old two months ago,
Stat whining is just sooooooo 2009!
/applaud and I agree; nice to see someone else touching on that topic
Extremely well said Agricola.
You make Gary proud.
There's nothing unfair with people who've been playing longer being farther along than someone who just started. There really is a tinge of jealousy to the idea that someone who started months after someone else feels they should be entitled a faster/easier track to "catch up" and are being discriminated against or being treated unfairly or something if they can't. There is a point in a MMO where diminishing returns kicks in... at some point, the degree of difference between you and a more "experience" player is going to become narrower and narrower.
Looking at it from the other side... How fair would it be to the people who spent all those months getting their characters to where they are, if a brand-new player could just waltz in and be caught up to them within a few weeks?
My advice: Stop worrying about where everyone else is, or what everyone else has, etc. etc. Play the damn game, enjoy the progression, and you'll get there... just like they did. I think people would enjoy themself a lot more if they stopped comparing where they are to those who are much farther along. Or, if they can't, then perhaps they should reconsider whether they've chosen the right game.
After all, why play a game you can't enjoy on terms you're not satisfied with? As usual... "you" is meant in general, not at anyone in particular.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You know, after re-reading this thread, i have conviced myself to give this game another go, and I'm downloading it now.
I've been playing one of those other games, and its just too dull, and predictable. I don't have a lot of time to commit to this game right now, but i will soon enough i suppose. It just seems to me, i'd rather be a crafter in Darkfall, than a hero in those other games. It's just more exciting. I figure it will be better to get started now, than 2 months from now.
So, for the time being, I'll work on my stats, and skills, slowly, and train sprint... a lot ....
Do it.
I almost made it today to the safety of towers
If you're on EU-1 and interested in joining a clan send me a pm or got to the mag site in my sig and apply on the darkfall recruitment forums.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
If you're on EU-1 and interested in joining a clan send me a pm or got to the mag site in my sig and apply on the darkfall recruitment forums.
I'd certainly take you up on that offer, but I'm on NA unfortunetly
Valid reasons, but just to inform you: today's Darkfall is a LOT different. I played back then too, and this is a totally different game.
You're better off training against mobs now....and it's actually worth it. I make thousands of gold, and get some decent gear and regs off mobs each night...and my skills are leveling SO unbelievably fast compared to the old days.
There's really no more bloodwalling, or macroing to speak of. And 'sploiters are banned FAST these days. Hell, even swimming under a dock will get you a 3-day warning ban now.
If you want to know how to get to PvP "end game" level in about 2 months time (2.5 for a causal that doesn't have any backing) read the link below
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=227122
Edit Ok thought this was a different post but the above still stands. Stats crawl after 60 and it allows people to catch up pretty easily.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Haha, my mistake. I mixed up themepark with mmo you can get killed 1000 times a day without losing anything ( EVE is a bit different but it still had 1.0 security, clones and insurance when I played).
My point is still valid and the number will show I`m right. The huge grind in a ffa full-loot mmo is devastating for a game as Darkfall. The sad part is other devs will look at the number of players in DF and think none likes a sandbox with full-loot. They will continue to make boring wow clone to be able to make some bucks.
Now back to the numbers of EU1. We so far registered 1583 active players in a clan. I know those numbers are not valid, but come on it`s still dangerously low. Even if we tripple those number, we`ll still have less than 5k on a server made to hold 40 k. My personal guess is that we have about 2.5 k active players on EU1. If AV made Darkfall available to casual players and pvpers, we would have 50-100 k players and not 10k like today.
And Agricola, I was at that siege. That was a siege that included 3 of the biggest alliances on EU1, and we had less than 300 players. I`m amazed you can see the problem with those numbers. And it not like you guys will lose your precious grind if they increase the level, stat and skill gain. I play with and against players with gear worth more than 100k gp. Gear, ships, siege weapons etc. is what we are suppose to grind for in a full-loot mmo, not levels. That would give Darkfall the risk vs reward it deserve.
For the record, I like Darkfall and play it every day. I just wish we had more high level players so we can have more of the fun battles we all enjoy.
If you want a chance at start new character owning vets, go play guildwars or wow where dont have risk losing anything.
In darkfall you have to work for your skills and earn status if players build there character for 6 months its logic they own all newplayers.
PLus fact that this game is with full loot there should be no system where you can own right at start.
Join clan go into world with mates you back you up.
If you can't take this beating by vets then Darkfall aint for you simple as that.
Darkfall is already way to easy for my taste its been nerfed already considrable of last 8 months.
But still if your a true free for all pvpers you keep going and fight to survive and dont come to forums whine how hard it is as a new player, thats exclusif for carebears and they play WoW hehe.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Valid reasons, but just to inform you: today's Darkfall is a LOT different. I played back then too, and this is a totally different game.
You're better off training against mobs now....and it's actually worth it. I make thousands of gold, and get some decent gear and regs off mobs each night...and my skills are leveling SO unbelievably fast compared to the old days.
There's really no more bloodwalling, or macroing to speak of. And 'sploiters are banned FAST these days. Hell, even swimming under a dock will get you a 3-day warning ban now.
Ive not macro/exploit/hack 1 sec in Darkfall im 11months solo(left clans becouse of macro 24hrs)and still manage to accomplish and own some offcorse i been owned more im solo after all, but its posible just make sure you have FUN nomatter how you play.
Macro/exploit/cheating is not fun most who do that leave after while becouse they get bored.
Play natural and honest, Darkfall is a AWESOME GAME.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I love how all of you morons decided to not even address the OPs suggestion. Melipone's suggestion, in which the concept of his suggestion is shown HERE is what Aventurine needs to do.
- it decreases the gap between new players and veterans to a reasonable extent
- it provides newer players with a greater "sense" of character progression early on, keeping more new players in game
- it would allow players to get into PvP scenarios and have a sense of survivability earlier on, placing less people in newbie spawns grinding their souls away, and more people out PvPing
- it DOES NOT take away any of the grind, WHATSOEVER
- it DOES NOT take away character progression
- it STILL provides that "carrot on the stick" for veterans to work towards
- it STILL provides veterans with a very noticeable character advantage in game, and WOULD NOT take away all the work they've put towards those advantages
- it DOES NOT, in any sense at all, make the game easy mode or cater to instant gratification
So, now that this thread is back on topic, someone actually DEBATE why that suggestion is a bad one and shouldn't be implemented. I have yet to see a good counterargument towards it.
Actualy that's how it is now, stat gains go up much quicker at first then start to level off as you get higher stats. That first graph is completely fictious, just a straight linear line that is more a representation of how he feels it is and then how he'd like it to feel.
The fact is stat gains are exactly like the proposed sandbox graph already, just he wants it even faster!
As Disraeli said "There are lies, damn lies then there are statistics"?
This guy pulled some statistics/charts/whatever out of his butt because he QQs himself to sleep whenever he gets killed mining outside a starter city naked!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
I looked at the graphs and I play DFO. I say that in my opinion just because some guy draws up a graph on Microsoft paint doesn't mean it is factual. I go on to say that my experience in game does not support the graph that he drew on his comp which is not supported with any figures or references to any kind of data gathered.
So in short I say those graphs are in my opinion bologne and if you got 400hp at 50 vit what would the repercussion be in DFO? I say subs would go down you say up well I see no data to support up so why do it. You're asking for the second NGE in my opinion.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on that since any further discussion of the subject would just result in pointless bickering.
Agricola
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Well I disagree with you Agri.
There is no reliable data to support your claim about possible drop in subs
Actualy that's how it is now, stat gains go up much quicker at first then start to level off as you get higher stats. That first graph is completely fictious, just a straight linear line that is more a representation of how he feels it is and then how he'd like it to feel.
The fact is stat gains are exactly like the proposed sandbox graph already, just he wants it even faster!
As Disraeli said "There are lies, damn lies then there are statistics"?
This guy pulled some statistics/charts/whatever out of his butt because he QQs himself to sleep whenever he gets killed mining outside a starter city naked!
Wow.... I can't believe you actually think that. Do you not have the ability to read a graph?
Hell, I'll even break it down for you since you're obviously clueless about what these graphs are representing.
The first graph shows a LINEAR PROGRESSION ON THE AFFECTS ON YOUR CHARACTER, which is EXACTLY HOW IT IS NOW. Notice how at Strength/Vitality level 50 the character has around 275 HP?
The second graph shows a NON-LINEAR PROGRESSION ON THE AFFECTS ON YOUR CHARACTER, which is EXACTLY HOW IT IS NOT now. Notice how at Strength/Vitality level 50 the character has around 400 HP?
Do you get it now? Or do you want me to break it down even further? Sure, STAT PROGRESSION, i.e. the ability to raise stats, decrease dramatically as you get higher. This means, it's much easier to go from 31-32 in a stat than it is to go from 71-72.
THESE GRAPHS DON'T REPRESENT ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS.
Instead, the second graph shows how STATS AT LOWER LEVELS AFFECT YOUR CHARACTER MORE than STATS AT HIGHER LEVELS. Meaning, you'd gain MORE HP going from levels 31-32 than you would going from levels 71-72.
Do you understand now? You do? Good. Now explain why this is a bad idea and why it would make the game "carebear mode" or some bullshit.
The graph's point is moot. All its saying is to make 50str and vit = 350 instead of ~300HP. Stats already level up on that curve, their affect is linear. But the point is, 300 hp = competetive level against anyone. Once you hit 300 hp, someone having 100 more hp than you isn't going to make a drastic difference on your ability to kill them. All 100hp ammounts to is 2-4 extra hits. Yea really game breaking.
As for the skills you "unlock" based on your stats, almost all of them are worthless and the ones that are worth anything don't affect dmg/defense enough to matter (omg 5extra dps game braking omg).
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Well I go on to say that, unlike your 2 months in game or whatever it is, I've been here since EUROPEAN LAUNCH back on FEBRUARY 25TH , 2009.
So, you are completely wrong. It's not the NUMBERS of the graph that is what matters, it is the BASIC CONCEPT of the graphs that is important. You seem to keep wanting to avoid talking about the CONCEPT of the graph's suggestion, saying it's "bologne" numbers, when in reality, it is exactly what is going on now.
In Darkfall, RIGHT NOW, you gain the same amount of health going from STRENGTH LEVEL 31-32 as you do going from STRENGTH LEVEL 71-72. This is a FACT, you cannot deny this.
What the second graph is arguing, is that you should GAIN MORE BENEFITS (whether it be health, mana, stamina, etc), at the earlier levels, and GAIN LESS BENEFITS the higher you go. Thus, as you start as a new player, you gain much more noticeable benefits during early stage progression, which makes your character get a decent pool of HP, mana, stamina, regen, etc, more quickly earlier on. As you progress higher, STAT GAIN decreases dramatically (which is the case now), AND SO DOES THE BENEFITS. This means, that instead of having +250 health over a new player if you've been playing for a year, you'll have somewhere around +100-125 health.
You say you won't continue this argument because of pointless bickering, and yet you STILL HAVE NOT ADDRESSED THE SUGGESTION.
The graph's point is moot. All its saying is to make 50str and vit = 350 instead of ~300HP. Stats already level up on that curve, their affect is linear. But the point is, 300 hp = competetive level against anyone. Once you hit 300 hp, someone having 100 more hp than you isn't going to make a drastic difference on your ability to kill them. All 100hp ammounts to is 2-4 extra hits. Yea really game breaking.
As for the skills you "unlock" based on your stats, almost all of them are worthless and the ones that are worth anything don't affect dmg/defense enough to matter (omg 5extra dps game braking omg).
Jesus christ people, DON'T LOOK AT THE EXACT NUMBERS OF THE GRAPH, LOOK AT THE GOD DAMN CONCEPT IT IS TALKING ABOUT.
As it stands right now, THE BENEFITS YOU GAIN DURING STAT PROGRESSION ARE L I N E A R. Melipone, myself, and many others are arguing to make THE BENEFITS YOU GAIN DURING STAT PROGRESSION NON- L I N E A R.
So, I advocate that when you progress from strength level 31-32, YOU GAIN MORE BENEFIT TO YOUR CHARACTER than when you progress from strength level 71-72, as an example. My god, do you people really not understand these graphs?
*edit* In regards to the red, these graphs have NOTHING TO DO WITH TIME. Stats level up on a non-linear curve, but their benefits level up LINEARLY. The top graph in that link shows how STAT BENEFITS LEVEL UP LINEARLY. The bottom graph shows how STAT BENEFITS LEVEL UP NON-LINEARLY.
WE ARE SUPPORTING STAT BENEFITS LEVELING UP NON-LINEARLY, NOT STAT LEVELS THEMSELVES.
So you've been waiting for a hardcore full-loot FFA MMO, but you can't handle the grind? If the game had no grind and it was easy to get veteran status.. you would basically be playing a shooter or an arena or something. This is a game that simulates the need to train and skill yourself up in preparation for battles. YES, I get absolutely frustrated when a guy 3 shots me in PvP and I can't do anything to him, but then I just go back and train some more afterwards and attempt to get myself back up there.. that's how he did it and that's how everyone should have to. Part of the reason that this game is 'hardcore' is because there is a grind to get what you want. There's a grind for gold, reagents, armor, skills, spells and weapons, and for alot of people that is a huge turn off, but it's the fact that this system gives you a strong feeling of character development and progression.. the way an MMORPG should.
I never said that I could not handle a grind. I have played almost every major MMO that has come out and I have attained max level in many of them. The problem in DFO is that this is not possible in any remotely reasonable period of time. To reach the point where NO ONE has a level advantage over you in Darkfall, you would literally have to grind non-stop for a year. THAT is what I consider to be ridiculous and unreasonable. I have already spent MUCH more time grinding than I feel should be necessary to reach the best part of the game.
I play these games for PvP. Not completely imbalanced PvP... I'm talking about the kind of PvP where you know that your opponent is at your same level of character skill and that the outcome of the fight is entirely dependent on your own personal skill and strategy. You can reach this level in a reasonable amount of time in most other MMOs. Just get to max level and you're there. This is almost entirely lacking from Darkfall since characters are so completely imbalanced against each other. Even after you have played the same amount of time as it would to reach max level in MOST other games, your character will still be a complete noob in Darkfall compared to much older players. By its very design, this makes true balance in combat impossible.
The best PvP moments I have had in MMO gaming were when I faced off against enemies who were at the same character skill (or level) as me. That is where my own personal skill really comes in. If I win, I know that it was because I played better than my opponent, not because I have twice as many hitpoints and more magic skills than him. What is fun about a hardcore PvP game when no one is ever truly on a level playing field?? It only makes it so that the older players have a permanent advantage over the newer ones. As far as I can tell, the only time it is ever truly even in Darkfall is when two brand new players fight. This is a major design flaw in my opinion...
Clearly many of you disagree with me, but I don't care. It is obvious that you prefer the game to be super grind-heavy. I can only imagine this is because you stuck it out since the beginning and now your character rarely lose against most players in 1v1. It is undoubtedly hard to think about possibly losing that advantage once you have it. However, without more balanced gameplay, this game will not hold my interest. I am simply not willing to continue being majorly handicapped versus older players after having already played HARD for months.
And to answer your questions Agricola, I am not the type of player who enjoys standing behind a large guild for PvP. Anyone can be part of a zerg, but that doesn't mean that you are actually contributing in any real way. I prefer smaller encounters where I am fully in control of the outcome. No game can truly be a hardcore PvP game in my opinion without some semblance of balance. Darkfall simply does not have that in my opinion.
It appears you are looking for instanced pvp. You have the wrong game.
It appears you are looking for instanced pvp. You have the wrong game.
Instanced PVP!?!? What the hell are you talking about? Its like you fanboys only read the sentences you choose to read and ignore the rest. Any sort of criticism for your holy grail of a game immediately equals "give me everything now! make it like WOW!!". You don't even listen to the logical arguments.
I am talking about how the PvP was in games like UO where all my enemy guilds were populated by players with the same skill cap as me. We were all even because the game ALLOWED that to occur. The same can be said in DAOC, AC, SB, etc. None of which were instanced PvP games (at least back in the day... can't say what they are now). I am not talking about necessarily having balanced numbers of opponents... but I am talking about reaching a point at which MOST players are not handicapped against each other. You pretty much can never reach this point in Darkfall unless you grind for a year straight... and even then you will be handicapped versus those who have been grinding for more than year. That is the balance I am referring to... and it is a balance you can find in almost every other PvP-centric MMO in a reasonable amount of time.
Yes but you are asking for balance in an open world pvp game with no instances.
For pvp balance there needs to be instances.
Simple concept.
/facepalm
I am only talking about balance 1v1. That is all I have ever been talking about in this thread...
THAT is a simple concept. Not sure why people are having a hard time with it.