Looking at Biowares previous RPG's it's hard to say they haven't done a brilliant job, particularly with the Mass Effect trilogy... As for Blizzard's own new game, considering their horrid performance as of late (at least in my opinion) and considering how much I dislike the repetitive and simplistic nature of WoW ...
Mass Effect is a simple game.
To tell the truth Mass Effect gets the KOTOR formula, simplify it and then mix it with Gears of War, all with great production value and cinematic story telling.(keep in mind, cinematic is not equal to complex)
Encounters, party dynamics, character development, spells/skills system and interaction between classes are always simple in the last Bioware games, Dragon Age has it a bit more indepth but it is a bit simplistic if you compare to a couple of JRPGs that also use party system in single player games.
Mass Effect 2 is even more simple than the first, but it has more action and cinematic feel with great production value.
World of Warcraft and Blizzard games are not more "simplistic" than Bioware games, especially after Baldur's Gate.
Compare group dynamics, character development, gear system, spells/skills/buffs/debuffs in WoW (or EQ2/EQ/GW/VG) with Mass Effect.
Don't forget that everything is easy in Mass Effect, every player will be able to watch the whole story. In MMORPGs, including Blizzard's game you have the ultra easy, easy, medium, hard and very hard encounters, raids and bosses. Do you think Bioware can pull the variety is needed in a MMO?
As I said, Mass Effect is easy and acessible all the time, but lets take Dragon Age that is a bit more challenging.
In Dragon Age some ordinary enemies hit harder and kill you faster than Bosses, encounter balace is something Bioware never was able to create.
See, there are a lot of cutscenes, facial animations and dialogues in Mass Effect, but it doesn't make it a "complex" game.
Do you think dialogue options make Mass Effect complex? Then Heavy Rain would be an ultra complex game.
You have a lot of cutscenes and dialogues in Mafia, Silent Hill2 and even Soul Reaver, but the story and moral concept of these games still are much more complex than the stories of Bioware games were you will always find all kind of cliches.
I am not saying complex is good and simple is bad, I just disagree with your argument. Bioware games are not complex (especially comparing to blizzard, soe, arena net, nc soft games), are not challenging, but they are well produced for sure.
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Firstly, I must point out I never said that Mass Effect was a complex game and that it was more complex than World of Warcraft. The two sentences are separate idea's from each other. On that note, I acknowledge Blizzards other games such as Starcraft, Warcraft and Diablo as brilliant games. I simply make the note that in terms of MMORPG's WoW (not Blizzard as a whole) is nothing special, it is, in my opinion, a far to easy game to understand, much too repetitive in content and quests and shallow in terms of "unique" background.
You are correct, Mass Effect is not a complex game in terms of the gameplay, but the storytelling and presentation of the game, in my opinion at least, is extremely well done and the plot is one of the best I've seen for sometime. Some may argue that point so I'll stress this is in my opinion. Again I am not saying this is what creates complexity I'm merely stating this is what engages the player and immerses them with the story. However, as you said, simple isn't always bad and in this instance it creates a much more engaging game, where the story really shines through while still having an enjoyable experience with the gameplay (combat, interactions etc). On the highest difficulties however, (insane) the game does become a lot more complex, at least in dealing with combat. Abilities become paramount and it is no longer a case of stand and shoot. So I agree Mass Effect, for the most part is a simple game, only in this case it is a positive rather than a negative.
As for WoW, like I said previously, it is not in the least engaging in any of it's quest storylines, and for the most part the expansion are shallow attempts to earn more money rather than viable content. The game revolves around the same style all the time, each expansion releases new equipment, new creatures, a boss etc but nothing unique. There is no completely new content, it's just another boss raid done slightly different and maybe a little harder. That said, the magic effects are interesting, but in general even the combat is poorly done. On that train of thought, Mass Effect also uses a repetitive style of combat, however, the combat in Mass Effect calls for players to pay closer attention to what is happening at all times, rather than just in particularly difficult battles or long training sessions. Again, the story of Mass Effect also plays a part in this, keeping the action interesting so that it is not simply a grind of doing an action over and over again without real reason or cause as can be seen in WoW "kill 10 rats" quests.
Gear wise, there is no difference,. There are more options for gear in WoW than Mass Effect but other than that they use very similar concepts of which armour provides the most effective enhancements or abilities in combination with other equipment. In terms of buffs/debuffs WoW obviously has more option there, however, many options for buffs/debuffs even gear and spells become completely redundant, a lot of them useless for the most part, where as in Mass Effect every ability and power, even lower tier weapons continue to have a use, there are always situations where one weapon is more useful than another or power/ability.
In terms of skill building, again they each have a very similar concept, the only difference is that WoW has more options, but other than that they both have classes, and each class has different abilities and a variety of possible builds.
As I stated before the game is much harder on harder difficulties. Normal isn't a challenge you can walk through and play casually, but after that it gets a little harder, at insane difficulty the game becomes more like DA than the simple shooter, who to take out first, what powers to use and such. The case is the same for DA where even on normal, strategies must be implemented in order to overcome harder obstacles, whether it be crowd control, the use of tanks, healers and damage dealers or other such tactics. So can Bioware cater for a variety of player levels and interest with both content and difficulty, yes I believe so. Again you cannot assume on what Bioware has previously done, what the MMO will be like as it will be completely different to the single player aspects of their previous games.
I say WoW is simplistic because it offers no variation it is a repetition of the same action over and over, there is very limited content at the highest levels in a range of "completely" different forms, not just raid party this or boss run that.
Out of curiousity, have you attempted both Mass Effect and DA and defeated it with ease on the 2 highest difficulties? Admittedly they are easy on the normal settings but above that they certainly offer a challenge, and you can't just take cover and shoot, it doesn't work, powers/spells/abilities etc become a massive part of winning or losing along with the strategies you use.
So yes Mass Effect is not complex for the most part (I would say DA is, however.) but I definitely believe that Bioware can create a game that trumps Blizzard's WoW in terms of interesting gameplay, brilliant story and complexity. Whether people will change games is another story.
A linear storyline based game will not be more popular than the more open WoW. What you have to do is make a game that is more open than WoW to beat WoW. Like Darkfall for example. You need innovation, not handcuffs.
What?!?!! WoW isn't all that open. It is heavily instanced...more so than most MMO's.
Not really. Sure, there are a lot of instances, but most moderng ames, from WAR to AoC to STO feature even more. Sure, older games barely had it, but then again, WoW was one of the first (first was CoH, I think? Can someone correct me on that?) to even implement it.
If I'm not mistaken (and this has likely already been stated since you posted this) Anarchy Online was the first to introduce instanced, and random, dungeon content via their mission system. They also had instances of the starter areas to prevent over-crowding. This was 2001/2002... so that puts them pretty far back there.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
When I see Korean's playing something besides StarCraft, maybe I'll believe it.
Bioware games are only popular in one place; the American (white) society. Nobody gives a rats ass about "ROLL A D20 DICE AND SOME RULE I DON'T CARE ABOUT CAUSES XXX DMG". Thank god they leaned away from that during ME and DA:O, but Bioware is no where near Blizzard's level worldwide LOL
When I see Korean's playing something besides StarCraft, maybe I'll believe it.
Bioware games are only popular in one place; the American (white) society. Nobody gives a rats ass about "ROLL A D20 DICE AND SOME RULE I DON'T CARE ABOUT CAUSES XXX DMG". Thank god they leaned away from that during ME and DA:O, but Bioware is no where near Blizzard's level worldwide LOL
Whatever you're smoking, I need some.
It is that attitude that stagnated the rpg maket and nearly ruined it. If it wasn't for casuals playing mmo's the might have still been good.
When I see Korean's playing something besides StarCraft, maybe I'll believe it.
Bioware games are only popular in one place; the American (white) society. Nobody gives a rats ass about "ROLL A D20 DICE AND SOME RULE I DON'T CARE ABOUT CAUSES XXX DMG". Thank god they leaned away from that during ME and DA:O, but Bioware is no where near Blizzard's level worldwide LOL
Whatever you're smoking, I need some.
Pretty much this.
Bioware games do sell well, but not on the level as Blizzard does. I don't know many people who would want to sit through a dry Bioware game (which is essentially all of them), but are willing to tryout a blizzard rts or have seen commercials for WoW and think it is interesting. It is simple: Blizzard currently attracts many gamers/non-gamer types from around the globe, and Bioware is still working a niche market, which is a mediocre slice of the gaming community.
Firstly, I must point out I never said that Mass Effect was a complex game and that it was more complex than World of Warcraft. The two sentences are separate idea's from each other. On that note, I acknowledge Blizzards other games such as Starcraft, Warcraft and Diablo as brilliant games. I simply make the note that in terms of MMORPG's WoW (not Blizzard as a whole) is nothing special, it is, in my opinion, a far to easy game to understand, much too repetitive in content and quests and shallow in terms of "unique" background. You are correct, Mass Effect is not a complex game in terms of the gameplay, but the storytelling and presentation of the game, in my opinion at least, is extremely well done and the plot is one of the best I've seen for sometime. Some may argue that point so I'll stress this is in my opinion. Again I am not saying this is what creates complexity I'm merely stating this is what engages the player and immerses them with the story. However, as you said, simple isn't always bad and in this instance it creates a much more engaging game, where the story really shines through while still having an enjoyable experience with the gameplay (combat, interactions etc). On the highest difficulties however, (insane) the game does become a lot more complex, at least in dealing with combat. Abilities become paramount and it is no longer a case of stand and shoot. So I agree Mass Effect, for the most part is a simple game, only in this case it is a positive rather than a negative. As for WoW, like I said previously, it is not in the least engaging in any of it's quest storylines, and for the most part the expansion are shallow attempts to earn more money rather than viable content. The game revolves around the same style all the time, each expansion releases new equipment, new creatures, a boss etc but nothing unique. There is no completely new content, it's just another boss raid done slightly different and maybe a little harder. That said, the magic effects are interesting, but in general even the combat is poorly done. On that train of thought, Mass Effect also uses a repetitive style of combat, however, the combat in Mass Effect calls for players to pay closer attention to what is happening at all times, rather than just in particularly difficult battles or long training sessions. Again, the story of Mass Effect also plays a part in this, keeping the action interesting so that it is not simply a grind of doing an action over and over again without real reason or cause as can be seen in WoW "kill 10 rats" quests. Gear wise, there is no difference,. There are more options for gear in WoW than Mass Effect but other than that they use very similar concepts of which armour provides the most effective enhancements or abilities in combination with other equipment. In terms of buffs/debuffs WoW obviously has more option there, however, many options for buffs/debuffs even gear and spells become completely redundant, a lot of them useless for the most part, where as in Mass Effect every ability and power, even lower tier weapons continue to have a use, there are always situations where one weapon is more useful than another or power/ability. In terms of skill building, again they each have a very similar concept, the only difference is that WoW has more options, but other than that they both have classes, and each class has different abilities and a variety of possible builds. As I stated before the game is much harder on harder difficulties. Normal isn't a challenge you can walk through and play casually, but after that it gets a little harder, at insane difficulty the game becomes more like DA than the simple shooter, who to take out first, what powers to use and such. The case is the same for DA where even on normal, strategies must be implemented in order to overcome harder obstacles, whether it be crowd control, the use of tanks, healers and damage dealers or other such tactics. So can Bioware cater for a variety of player levels and interest with both content and difficulty, yes I believe so. Again you cannot assume on what Bioware has previously done, what the MMO will be like as it will be completely different to the single player aspects of their previous games. I say WoW is simplistic because it offers no variation it is a repetition of the same action over and over, there is very limited content at the highest levels in a range of "completely" different forms, not just raid party this or boss run that. Out of curiousity, have you attempted both Mass Effect and DA and defeated it with ease on the 2 highest difficulties? Admittedly they are easy on the normal settings but above that they certainly offer a challenge, and you can't just take cover and shoot, it doesn't work, powers/spells/abilities etc become a massive part of winning or losing along with the strategies you use. So yes Mass Effect is not complex for the most part (I would say DA is, however.) but I definitely believe that Bioware can create a game that trumps Blizzard's WoW in terms of interesting gameplay, brilliant story and complexity. Whether people will change games is another story. Just my opinion aye.
I think that in the end this conversation ended up as a WoW vs ME subject, I don't think this is exactly productive as I am not a Blizzard defender.
But a lot of what you said about Mass Effect is subjective. Personaly I find the storyline of Deus Ex, Warcraft, Demon's Souls, Mafia, Silent Hill, even the background stories of Everquest much more interesting than Mass Effect's story, but we all know this is subjective. For me Mass Effect story is not engaging, I usually expect more of a sci fi game than all the space opera cliches.
But the mechanics of stats, skills/spells, gearing and character development in Mass Effect and most Bioware games is indeed more simple than we find in MMORPGs, try to compare the group dynamics in a hard dungeon, instance or raid to the group dynamics of Bioware games. Compare those details in Bioware games with Square Enix games. This is why, for me it is hard to belive that Bioware knows how to build a interesting group dynamics in a game where everyone in a party will be a human player.
Yes I played Mass Effect and Dragon Age on hard, Dragon Age even with its huge lack of balance between encounters has some interesting points, but ME for me lacks on the shooter side and on the tatic rpg side. Especially after games like Demon's Souls where the challenge is there not because you are playing in the harder setting, but because the game is designed to be challenging and complex.
Yes both Mass Effect and World of Warcraft ( or EQ/EQ2, GW etc remember I not trying to defend Blizzard here) have similar mechanics, they all have classes and skills/spells, but try to compare the real difference of classes in a group, how the character development doesn't mean much and how a lot of skills/spells in Bioware games are useless, (maybe because they want to see everybody enjoying the story).
When you play a hard boss in a Square Enix game and notice the sinergy between classes, how most skills are really useful and how the combat can be tatic you have the impression that Square can create a game where human players can form a party/raid and have a good but challenging experience (and they indeed can). With Bioware games, especially Mass Effect the impression is the opposite.
I disagree with one of your points, EQ2, WoW and Vanguard offers a LOT of variety and you can enjoy those games in a lot of different ways, you really belive you will have a new game produced by Bioware with more options at the end game than EQ/EQ2/WoW ?
Mass Effect have that cinematic feel and the huge production, this is "in" in today's games, Modern Warfare also has that cinematic feeling. I understand some players really enjoy this, personally, I don't care much about it, this is why I do prefer Dragon Age than Mass Effect when we talk about Bioware games.
I was just randomly reading, and decided I had to log in to reply to this thread. I think there have been a lot of good points, both sides of this fence are right in their own opinions of course.
I would however question the assertion that WoW is not a complex game - although I no longer play WoW I have previously been a hardcore raider for 5-6 years and as such have quite some exposure to endgame content at all the various stages of expansion.
I would categorically say that although they may on occasion be using similar types of progression from expansion to expansion (e.g. better items, higher level cap etc etc.) they also add quite a lot of small yet important details that make all the difference that people tend to notice less since no complaint derives from these.
My final argument and I think this is the most important, is that you simply cannot compare Bioware single player game complexity/immersion/party interactions with Blizzard's WoW - it cannot be done for one fundamental difference that Bioware will almost certainly smack into when they hit the MMO market.
Balance issues (for SP or for PvP) - you simply cannot make large complex changes - everything has to be small and incremental.
With this in consideration, I think WoW is one of the greatest products I have ever had the pleasure of playing and the only reason I have stopped playing is because it was so addictive (mainly on account of the people in my guild being exceptionally elite alongside exceptionally drunk and friendly) that I feared I would never be happy with real life again.
Consider that Blizzard's WoW has such a huge amount of End Game Content - the quantity of different character types and builds - the complexity of balancing NPC bosses/NPCs/PvP to player abilities across all different classes. Suddenly you realise that the greatest thing Blizzard ever did was not the content/lore/complexity/immersion but making the game as fair as is humanly possible so the best content in WoW is other players.
The important thing to remember here is that while Bioware writes great single player rpg games they have yet to produce a MMO. Lauding a unreleased product is beyond dumb in this genre.
I like Bioware and I think they will do a good job on their MMO, but I think we should wait until it is out there to test before giving them accolades.
So they spend 8 years working on games and thats milking? Bioware pumped out Mass Effect 2 in 2 years and thats not milking?
Not only that!
Don't forget Dragon Age's DLCs.
Bioware was selling Warden's Keep at the same day they released Dragon Age.
Only EA/Bioware and UBI with Assassin's Creed2 explored the DLC system releasing single player games with "holes" and extras to cover this holes at release day.
Bioware is much more greedy today than Blizzard and SOE together, what happened with Dragon Age is just a proof but somehow people around here just forgot about it.
WoW is anything but an open world. It leads you by the hand from quest hub to quest hub. How is that an open world?
It's not an open world, but you get quite a few choices as to which quest hubs you choose.
You can also level by grinding or PvP.
WoW ain't sandbox, but it ain't linear either.
You can always trace the people who did play and those who "play games on forums".
It's no use even talking to guys like TdogSkal, forget it, they will never accept anything coming from Blizzard.
On topic: Bioware could be a good MMO maker, but they have to realize ... most people don't play WOW for the adventure. The story telling in an MMO is just wall dressing, nothing more.
People play to avance their avatars and they create their proper heroic acts - mostly in PvP - , first in levels and then in capacity and gear, far more open options than non WOW players would believe.
Some would call it a threadmill, but it is a damned fun threadmill and ... life is a threadmill too.
One thing SW is already doing wrong: the use of NPC's as aids to replace player tanks and healers.
Not good. They should use the new LFG tool to add players automatically to do intro group based content.
That's all I see for the moment, let's wait another year and see how they handled space and space combat.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Blizzard kicked off the third generation of MMORPGs by breaking down innovative and deep ideas, bringing them to their most basic components, taking out any kind of penalty, and making the games focused on playing with small groups of people, with instant gratification.
Blizzard took the massive out of MMORPG.
Now Bioware is going to take it a step further, by making the game primarily focused on single player content, with the option to invite a few friends in. Where you meet these friends I have no idea, probably from outside of the game, because there are no real social hubs to meet anyone in SWTOR. Its all just scripted instances.
Sadly I see more MMOs going down this way, though its not even fair to call them MMOs. Hasn't been fair to call them MMOs since instancing started getting abused.
So they spend 8 years working on games and thats milking? Bioware pumped out Mass Effect 2 in 2 years and thats not milking?
Not only that!
Don't forget Dragon Age's DLCs.
Bioware was selling Warden's Keep at the same day they released Dragon Age.
Only EA/Bioware and UBI with Assassin's Creed2 explored the DLC system releasing single player games with "holes" and extras to cover this holes at release day.
Bioware is much more greedy today than Blizzard and SOE together, what happened with Dragon Age is just a proof but somehow people around here just forgot about it.
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I wouldn't say that Bioware is worse than SOE, rather, they're catching up to SOE. Consider that SOE added item malls into games/servers after swearing up and down that they wouldn't add it in an intrusive manner... i.e. limiting item malls to servers specifically made for them. Bioware has made no such claim. Doesn't make them right for doing what they're doing, but at least they're not lying... yet.
Anyways, it's the trend of any successful developer. They start small and/or indie. They make a few hit game or two, which gets the attention of investors. They then make a few more games with a higher production cost, which draws more hype and attention, possibly (likely) bought by a larger developer. By this time they're churning out new games with a high production cost, but lower quality/content, and expecting everyone to come running to buy them.
WoW is anything but an open world. It leads you by the hand from quest hub to quest hub. How is that an open world?
It's not an open world, but you get quite a few choices as to which quest hubs you choose.
You can also level by grinding or PvP.
WoW ain't sandbox, but it ain't linear either.
You can always trace the people who did play and those who "play games on forums".
It's no use even talking to guys like TdogSkal, forget it, they will never accept anything coming from Blizzard.
On topic: Bioware could be a good MMO maker, but they have to realize ... most people don't play WOW for the adventure. The story telling in an MMO is just wall dressing, nothing more.
People play to avance their avatars and they create their proper heroic acts - mostly in PvP - , first in levels and then in capacity and gear, far more open options than non WOW players would believe.
Some would call it a threadmill, but it is a damned fun threadmill and ... life is a threadmill too.
One thing SW is already doing wrong: the use of NPC's as aids to replace player tanks and healers.
Not good. They should use the new LFG tool to add players automatically to do intro group based content.
That's all I see for the moment, let's wait another year and see how they handled space and space combat.
That's funny. WoW seems pretty open to me. I can virtually go anywhere and quest whether I go out of order or not. Half the time I quest I don't even pay attention to story. At least until Northrend. But then again, the Lich King lore is pretty epic IMO. Personally I've never felt restricted. Not like I do in Aion and GW anyways.
On topic: Bioware could be a good MMO maker, but they have to realize ... most people don't play WOW for the adventure. The story telling in an MMO is just wall dressing, nothing more. People play to avance their avatars and they create their proper heroic acts - mostly in PvP - , first in levels and then in capacity and gear, far more open options than non WOW players would believe.
Story telling is just window dressing? No at some point every single player realize that WoW has same 5 types of quests which they reuse over and over.Story is what makes care about what you are doing,Good story makes you forgot that you are doing the same 5 quest types over and over.
Honestly the missions in mass effect and dragon age are not very creative but good story enough to ignore the fact that you have been killing the same couple of enemies over and over.Yes gamer today are running through the motions,Aoc was the last game where i cared about the quest,Darkfall was last game where had to read quest.Which is pretty sad.
Bioware needs to do exactly what they are doing and keep their strong story focus.If you can make player care about a story they won't even care that they are grinding mobs.If Bioware DA had quest to kill 100 orcs,WoW had quest to kill 100 orcs,I bet you more people would complain about doing it in WoW.
Can we atleast wait for the game to open beta or release before we start annointing a company as the next big thing? Also, who wants Bioware to have 10million subs? Look what thats doen for WoW. No thanks...
That's funny. WoW seems pretty open to me. I can virtually go anywhere and quest whether I go out of order or not. Half the time I quest I don't even pay attention to story. At least until Northrend. But then again, the Lich King lore is pretty epic IMO. Personally I've never felt restricted. Not like I do in Aion and GW anyways.
If you haven't played a game like UO or SWG (pre-CU) then you really don't have a proper perception of just how open of game worlds an MMO is capable of. If you did, you would realize that WoW is rather restrictive, even if it is less so than other MMOs.
Yes. The term "window dressing" in this context means it has no effect on game play.
For example, you run into a Mob. You don't change the stats at all, or anything about the mob except it's color, and ad some spikes on it. That's window dressing. It has no effect on game play.
That's the same for lore and stories in static games.
What if you removed the story, what in the game would change? Nothing. What if you changed the story, what in the game would change? Nothing.
No at some point every single player realize that WoW has same 5 types of quests which they reuse over and over.
Oh TOR will have those exact same 5 types of quests. It will just be disguised with 10 minutes of dialog before you do it.
It might be a nice distraction for a while, but at some point in time I will need deep and interesting game mechanics to keep me motivated to keep playing. I have yet to be convinced that TOR will be able to provide that.
No at some point every single player realize that WoW has same 5 types of quests which they reuse over and over.
Oh TOR will have those exact same 5 types of quests. It will just be disguised with 10 minutes of dialog before you do it.
It might be a nice distraction for a while, but at some point in time I will need deep and interesting game mechanics to keep me motivated to keep playing. I have yet to be convinced that TOR will be able to provide that.
No actually Bioware only has one linear quest format with say around 4 interchangeable pieces
1.Kill alot of stuff
2.Boss battles
3.Puzzle/Find a item
4.Story event
They just mix order of the linear event.For example most quest play out like Kill alot of stuff,story event,Kill alot of stuff,Puzzle,Kill alot of stuff,Find a item,Boss Battle,Story event.Every quest is basically the same thing with the 4 parts changed around with more or less added.I am playing mass effect 2 right now.They are no go kill 10 rats,no fed ex,etc They are less quest types in than WoW.
The story(dialog) is the game.How you play your role determines the game,Yes Bioware pushes story a little bit to much at times.The story gives those interesting and deep mechanics some purpose with out it you would just have Haze,Prey or Killzone 2.You need "the why" in games.Why i am kill this enemy,Why i am collecting these items,Why i am trying to save these people.
When Bioware does its job you care about the dialog and choices you make in the game.Dialog is not disguising anything the dialog is the game.If you don't care about the dialog why even play the game?
I was wrong in the past about many games but I cant be wrong forever the mathematical statistical odds are against that Kidding aside, I base my past prediction fails on those games not being able to prove themselves by making a single high quality game.
Bioware has made many high quality games, Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Plus with DA and how they Did ME2. Now, I hear people that played ME1 dont like ME2 and well you are prejudiced by the first experience. I didnt Play ME1 so I have an objective point of view.
The mmo community is moving from the old style of rat quests, and raid the wabbit hole to more serious character driven and storyline based experiences with world changing events where your character can effect change.
A linear storyline based game will not be more popular than the more open WoW. What you have to do is make a game that is more open than WoW to beat WoW. Like Darkfall for example. You need innovation, not handcuffs.
YAHTZEE!
This sucker will be hyped to infinity until release just like the countless other "BESTEST!!1ONe" MMOs out there. The problem is, this game will be just another theme park. Sure, it will draw in players like STO but most will leave after the first month or so. You can't keep making these linear type games and expect longevity.
Give us freedom or give us another game.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Comments
Mass Effect is a simple game.
To tell the truth Mass Effect gets the KOTOR formula, simplify it and then mix it with Gears of War, all with great production value and cinematic story telling.(keep in mind, cinematic is not equal to complex)
Encounters, party dynamics, character development, spells/skills system and interaction between classes are always simple in the last Bioware games, Dragon Age has it a bit more indepth but it is a bit simplistic if you compare to a couple of JRPGs that also use party system in single player games.
Mass Effect 2 is even more simple than the first, but it has more action and cinematic feel with great production value.
World of Warcraft and Blizzard games are not more "simplistic" than Bioware games, especially after Baldur's Gate.
Compare group dynamics, character development, gear system, spells/skills/buffs/debuffs in WoW (or EQ2/EQ/GW/VG) with Mass Effect.
Don't forget that everything is easy in Mass Effect, every player will be able to watch the whole story. In MMORPGs, including Blizzard's game you have the ultra easy, easy, medium, hard and very hard encounters, raids and bosses. Do you think Bioware can pull the variety is needed in a MMO?
As I said, Mass Effect is easy and acessible all the time, but lets take Dragon Age that is a bit more challenging.
In Dragon Age some ordinary enemies hit harder and kill you faster than Bosses, encounter balace is something Bioware never was able to create.
See, there are a lot of cutscenes, facial animations and dialogues in Mass Effect, but it doesn't make it a "complex" game.
Do you think dialogue options make Mass Effect complex? Then Heavy Rain would be an ultra complex game.
You have a lot of cutscenes and dialogues in Mafia, Silent Hill2 and even Soul Reaver, but the story and moral concept of these games still are much more complex than the stories of Bioware games were you will always find all kind of cliches.
I am not saying complex is good and simple is bad, I just disagree with your argument. Bioware games are not complex (especially comparing to blizzard, soe, arena net, nc soft games), are not challenging, but they are well produced for sure.
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Firstly, I must point out I never said that Mass Effect was a complex game and that it was more complex than World of Warcraft. The two sentences are separate idea's from each other. On that note, I acknowledge Blizzards other games such as Starcraft, Warcraft and Diablo as brilliant games. I simply make the note that in terms of MMORPG's WoW (not Blizzard as a whole) is nothing special, it is, in my opinion, a far to easy game to understand, much too repetitive in content and quests and shallow in terms of "unique" background.
You are correct, Mass Effect is not a complex game in terms of the gameplay, but the storytelling and presentation of the game, in my opinion at least, is extremely well done and the plot is one of the best I've seen for sometime. Some may argue that point so I'll stress this is in my opinion. Again I am not saying this is what creates complexity I'm merely stating this is what engages the player and immerses them with the story. However, as you said, simple isn't always bad and in this instance it creates a much more engaging game, where the story really shines through while still having an enjoyable experience with the gameplay (combat, interactions etc). On the highest difficulties however, (insane) the game does become a lot more complex, at least in dealing with combat. Abilities become paramount and it is no longer a case of stand and shoot. So I agree Mass Effect, for the most part is a simple game, only in this case it is a positive rather than a negative.
As for WoW, like I said previously, it is not in the least engaging in any of it's quest storylines, and for the most part the expansion are shallow attempts to earn more money rather than viable content. The game revolves around the same style all the time, each expansion releases new equipment, new creatures, a boss etc but nothing unique. There is no completely new content, it's just another boss raid done slightly different and maybe a little harder. That said, the magic effects are interesting, but in general even the combat is poorly done. On that train of thought, Mass Effect also uses a repetitive style of combat, however, the combat in Mass Effect calls for players to pay closer attention to what is happening at all times, rather than just in particularly difficult battles or long training sessions. Again, the story of Mass Effect also plays a part in this, keeping the action interesting so that it is not simply a grind of doing an action over and over again without real reason or cause as can be seen in WoW "kill 10 rats" quests.
Gear wise, there is no difference,. There are more options for gear in WoW than Mass Effect but other than that they use very similar concepts of which armour provides the most effective enhancements or abilities in combination with other equipment. In terms of buffs/debuffs WoW obviously has more option there, however, many options for buffs/debuffs even gear and spells become completely redundant, a lot of them useless for the most part, where as in Mass Effect every ability and power, even lower tier weapons continue to have a use, there are always situations where one weapon is more useful than another or power/ability.
In terms of skill building, again they each have a very similar concept, the only difference is that WoW has more options, but other than that they both have classes, and each class has different abilities and a variety of possible builds.
As I stated before the game is much harder on harder difficulties. Normal isn't a challenge you can walk through and play casually, but after that it gets a little harder, at insane difficulty the game becomes more like DA than the simple shooter, who to take out first, what powers to use and such. The case is the same for DA where even on normal, strategies must be implemented in order to overcome harder obstacles, whether it be crowd control, the use of tanks, healers and damage dealers or other such tactics. So can Bioware cater for a variety of player levels and interest with both content and difficulty, yes I believe so. Again you cannot assume on what Bioware has previously done, what the MMO will be like as it will be completely different to the single player aspects of their previous games.
I say WoW is simplistic because it offers no variation it is a repetition of the same action over and over, there is very limited content at the highest levels in a range of "completely" different forms, not just raid party this or boss run that.
Out of curiousity, have you attempted both Mass Effect and DA and defeated it with ease on the 2 highest difficulties? Admittedly they are easy on the normal settings but above that they certainly offer a challenge, and you can't just take cover and shoot, it doesn't work, powers/spells/abilities etc become a massive part of winning or losing along with the strategies you use.
So yes Mass Effect is not complex for the most part (I would say DA is, however.) but I definitely believe that Bioware can create a game that trumps Blizzard's WoW in terms of interesting gameplay, brilliant story and complexity. Whether people will change games is another story.
Just my opinion aye.
Veiled Black, Darkness Incarnate
What?!?!! WoW isn't all that open. It is heavily instanced...more so than most MMO's.
Not really. Sure, there are a lot of instances, but most moderng ames, from WAR to AoC to STO feature even more. Sure, older games barely had it, but then again, WoW was one of the first (first was CoH, I think? Can someone correct me on that?) to even implement it.
If I'm not mistaken (and this has likely already been stated since you posted this) Anarchy Online was the first to introduce instanced, and random, dungeon content via their mission system. They also had instances of the starter areas to prevent over-crowding. This was 2001/2002... so that puts them pretty far back there.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
.....keep thinking this LOL
When I see Korean's playing something besides StarCraft, maybe I'll believe it.
Bioware games are only popular in one place; the American (white) society. Nobody gives a rats ass about "ROLL A D20 DICE AND SOME RULE I DON'T CARE ABOUT CAUSES XXX DMG". Thank god they leaned away from that during ME and DA:O, but Bioware is no where near Blizzard's level worldwide LOL
Whatever you're smoking, I need some.
It is that attitude that stagnated the rpg maket and nearly ruined it. If it wasn't for casuals playing mmo's the might have still been good.
Blizzard has not released new game for years. So in truth Bioware is offering alot more than the Blizzard team atm.
I think it will become clear in the next few years that BLizzard is actually no longer the gaming company it once was.
Pretty much this.
Bioware games do sell well, but not on the level as Blizzard does. I don't know many people who would want to sit through a dry Bioware game (which is essentially all of them), but are willing to tryout a blizzard rts or have seen commercials for WoW and think it is interesting. It is simple: Blizzard currently attracts many gamers/non-gamer types from around the globe, and Bioware is still working a niche market, which is a mediocre slice of the gaming community.
I think that in the end this conversation ended up as a WoW vs ME subject, I don't think this is exactly productive as I am not a Blizzard defender.
But a lot of what you said about Mass Effect is subjective. Personaly I find the storyline of Deus Ex, Warcraft, Demon's Souls, Mafia, Silent Hill, even the background stories of Everquest much more interesting than Mass Effect's story, but we all know this is subjective. For me Mass Effect story is not engaging, I usually expect more of a sci fi game than all the space opera cliches.
But the mechanics of stats, skills/spells, gearing and character development in Mass Effect and most Bioware games is indeed more simple than we find in MMORPGs, try to compare the group dynamics in a hard dungeon, instance or raid to the group dynamics of Bioware games. Compare those details in Bioware games with Square Enix games. This is why, for me it is hard to belive that Bioware knows how to build a interesting group dynamics in a game where everyone in a party will be a human player.
Yes I played Mass Effect and Dragon Age on hard, Dragon Age even with its huge lack of balance between encounters has some interesting points, but ME for me lacks on the shooter side and on the tatic rpg side. Especially after games like Demon's Souls where the challenge is there not because you are playing in the harder setting, but because the game is designed to be challenging and complex.
Yes both Mass Effect and World of Warcraft ( or EQ/EQ2, GW etc remember I not trying to defend Blizzard here) have similar mechanics, they all have classes and skills/spells, but try to compare the real difference of classes in a group, how the character development doesn't mean much and how a lot of skills/spells in Bioware games are useless, (maybe because they want to see everybody enjoying the story).
When you play a hard boss in a Square Enix game and notice the sinergy between classes, how most skills are really useful and how the combat can be tatic you have the impression that Square can create a game where human players can form a party/raid and have a good but challenging experience (and they indeed can). With Bioware games, especially Mass Effect the impression is the opposite.
I disagree with one of your points, EQ2, WoW and Vanguard offers a LOT of variety and you can enjoy those games in a lot of different ways, you really belive you will have a new game produced by Bioware with more options at the end game than EQ/EQ2/WoW ?
Mass Effect have that cinematic feel and the huge production, this is "in" in today's games, Modern Warfare also has that cinematic feeling. I understand some players really enjoy this, personally, I don't care much about it, this is why I do prefer Dragon Age than Mass Effect when we talk about Bioware games.
I was just randomly reading, and decided I had to log in to reply to this thread. I think there have been a lot of good points, both sides of this fence are right in their own opinions of course.
I would however question the assertion that WoW is not a complex game - although I no longer play WoW I have previously been a hardcore raider for 5-6 years and as such have quite some exposure to endgame content at all the various stages of expansion.
I would categorically say that although they may on occasion be using similar types of progression from expansion to expansion (e.g. better items, higher level cap etc etc.) they also add quite a lot of small yet important details that make all the difference that people tend to notice less since no complaint derives from these.
My final argument and I think this is the most important, is that you simply cannot compare Bioware single player game complexity/immersion/party interactions with Blizzard's WoW - it cannot be done for one fundamental difference that Bioware will almost certainly smack into when they hit the MMO market.
Balance issues (for SP or for PvP) - you simply cannot make large complex changes - everything has to be small and incremental.
With this in consideration, I think WoW is one of the greatest products I have ever had the pleasure of playing and the only reason I have stopped playing is because it was so addictive (mainly on account of the people in my guild being exceptionally elite alongside exceptionally drunk and friendly) that I feared I would never be happy with real life again.
Consider that Blizzard's WoW has such a huge amount of End Game Content - the quantity of different character types and builds - the complexity of balancing NPC bosses/NPCs/PvP to player abilities across all different classes. Suddenly you realise that the greatest thing Blizzard ever did was not the content/lore/complexity/immersion but making the game as fair as is humanly possible so the best content in WoW is other players.
Nyack
The important thing to remember here is that while Bioware writes great single player rpg games they have yet to produce a MMO. Lauding a unreleased product is beyond dumb in this genre.
I like Bioware and I think they will do a good job on their MMO, but I think we should wait until it is out there to test before giving them accolades.
Not only that!
Don't forget Dragon Age's DLCs.
Bioware was selling Warden's Keep at the same day they released Dragon Age.
Only EA/Bioware and UBI with Assassin's Creed2 explored the DLC system releasing single player games with "holes" and extras to cover this holes at release day.
Bioware is much more greedy today than Blizzard and SOE together, what happened with Dragon Age is just a proof but somehow people around here just forgot about it.
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It's not an open world, but you get quite a few choices as to which quest hubs you choose.
You can also level by grinding or PvP.
WoW ain't sandbox, but it ain't linear either.
You can always trace the people who did play and those who "play games on forums".
It's no use even talking to guys like TdogSkal, forget it, they will never accept anything coming from Blizzard.
On topic: Bioware could be a good MMO maker, but they have to realize ... most people don't play WOW for the adventure. The story telling in an MMO is just wall dressing, nothing more.
People play to avance their avatars and they create their proper heroic acts - mostly in PvP - , first in levels and then in capacity and gear, far more open options than non WOW players would believe.
Some would call it a threadmill, but it is a damned fun threadmill and ... life is a threadmill too.
One thing SW is already doing wrong: the use of NPC's as aids to replace player tanks and healers.
Not good. They should use the new LFG tool to add players automatically to do intro group based content.
That's all I see for the moment, let's wait another year and see how they handled space and space combat.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
I agree, Bioware IS the new Blizzard.
Blizzard kicked off the third generation of MMORPGs by breaking down innovative and deep ideas, bringing them to their most basic components, taking out any kind of penalty, and making the games focused on playing with small groups of people, with instant gratification.
Blizzard took the massive out of MMORPG.
Now Bioware is going to take it a step further, by making the game primarily focused on single player content, with the option to invite a few friends in. Where you meet these friends I have no idea, probably from outside of the game, because there are no real social hubs to meet anyone in SWTOR. Its all just scripted instances.
Sadly I see more MMOs going down this way, though its not even fair to call them MMOs. Hasn't been fair to call them MMOs since instancing started getting abused.
Not only that!
Don't forget Dragon Age's DLCs.
Bioware was selling Warden's Keep at the same day they released Dragon Age.
Only EA/Bioware and UBI with Assassin's Creed2 explored the DLC system releasing single player games with "holes" and extras to cover this holes at release day.
Bioware is much more greedy today than Blizzard and SOE together, what happened with Dragon Age is just a proof but somehow people around here just forgot about it.
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I wouldn't say that Bioware is worse than SOE, rather, they're catching up to SOE. Consider that SOE added item malls into games/servers after swearing up and down that they wouldn't add it in an intrusive manner... i.e. limiting item malls to servers specifically made for them. Bioware has made no such claim. Doesn't make them right for doing what they're doing, but at least they're not lying... yet.
Anyways, it's the trend of any successful developer. They start small and/or indie. They make a few hit game or two, which gets the attention of investors. They then make a few more games with a higher production cost, which draws more hype and attention, possibly (likely) bought by a larger developer. By this time they're churning out new games with a high production cost, but lower quality/content, and expecting everyone to come running to buy them.
Bioware looks to be in the midst of tipping over the apex and onto the above list, if it hasn't already with DA:O and ME2.
It's not an open world, but you get quite a few choices as to which quest hubs you choose.
You can also level by grinding or PvP.
WoW ain't sandbox, but it ain't linear either.
You can always trace the people who did play and those who "play games on forums".
It's no use even talking to guys like TdogSkal, forget it, they will never accept anything coming from Blizzard.
On topic: Bioware could be a good MMO maker, but they have to realize ... most people don't play WOW for the adventure. The story telling in an MMO is just wall dressing, nothing more.
People play to avance their avatars and they create their proper heroic acts - mostly in PvP - , first in levels and then in capacity and gear, far more open options than non WOW players would believe.
Some would call it a threadmill, but it is a damned fun threadmill and ... life is a threadmill too.
One thing SW is already doing wrong: the use of NPC's as aids to replace player tanks and healers.
Not good. They should use the new LFG tool to add players automatically to do intro group based content.
That's all I see for the moment, let's wait another year and see how they handled space and space combat.
That's funny. WoW seems pretty open to me. I can virtually go anywhere and quest whether I go out of order or not. Half the time I quest I don't even pay attention to story. At least until Northrend. But then again, the Lich King lore is pretty epic IMO. Personally I've never felt restricted. Not like I do in Aion and GW anyways.
Getting too old for this $&17!
Story telling is just window dressing? No at some point every single player realize that WoW has same 5 types of quests which they reuse over and over.Story is what makes care about what you are doing,Good story makes you forgot that you are doing the same 5 quest types over and over.
Honestly the missions in mass effect and dragon age are not very creative but good story enough to ignore the fact that you have been killing the same couple of enemies over and over.Yes gamer today are running through the motions,Aoc was the last game where i cared about the quest,Darkfall was last game where had to read quest.Which is pretty sad.
Bioware needs to do exactly what they are doing and keep their strong story focus.If you can make player care about a story they won't even care that they are grinding mobs.If Bioware DA had quest to kill 100 orcs,WoW had quest to kill 100 orcs,I bet you more people would complain about doing it in WoW.
Can we atleast wait for the game to open beta or release before we start annointing a company as the next big thing? Also, who wants Bioware to have 10million subs? Look what thats doen for WoW. No thanks...
If you haven't played a game like UO or SWG (pre-CU) then you really don't have a proper perception of just how open of game worlds an MMO is capable of. If you did, you would realize that WoW is rather restrictive, even if it is less so than other MMOs.
Yes. The term "window dressing" in this context means it has no effect on game play.
For example, you run into a Mob. You don't change the stats at all, or anything about the mob except it's color, and ad some spikes on it. That's window dressing. It has no effect on game play.
That's the same for lore and stories in static games.
What if you removed the story, what in the game would change? Nothing. What if you changed the story, what in the game would change? Nothing.
Which means the stories are window dressing.
Oh TOR will have those exact same 5 types of quests. It will just be disguised with 10 minutes of dialog before you do it.
It might be a nice distraction for a while, but at some point in time I will need deep and interesting game mechanics to keep me motivated to keep playing. I have yet to be convinced that TOR will be able to provide that.
The players perception of everything.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
"BLIZZARD is the New BLIZZARD, Bioware is infact just a very wellbuilt uprising Company"
simple as that
A Old Friend Once told me " I'll Make ya Famous"
Oh TOR will have those exact same 5 types of quests. It will just be disguised with 10 minutes of dialog before you do it.
It might be a nice distraction for a while, but at some point in time I will need deep and interesting game mechanics to keep me motivated to keep playing. I have yet to be convinced that TOR will be able to provide that.
No actually Bioware only has one linear quest format with say around 4 interchangeable pieces
1.Kill alot of stuff
2.Boss battles
3.Puzzle/Find a item
4.Story event
They just mix order of the linear event.For example most quest play out like Kill alot of stuff,story event,Kill alot of stuff,Puzzle,Kill alot of stuff,Find a item,Boss Battle,Story event.Every quest is basically the same thing with the 4 parts changed around with more or less added.I am playing mass effect 2 right now.They are no go kill 10 rats,no fed ex,etc They are less quest types in than WoW.
The story(dialog) is the game.How you play your role determines the game,Yes Bioware pushes story a little bit to much at times.The story gives those interesting and deep mechanics some purpose with out it you would just have Haze,Prey or Killzone 2.You need "the why" in games.Why i am kill this enemy,Why i am collecting these items,Why i am trying to save these people.
When Bioware does its job you care about the dialog and choices you make in the game.Dialog is not disguising anything the dialog is the game.If you don't care about the dialog why even play the game?
I was wrong in the past about many games but I cant be wrong forever the mathematical statistical odds are against that
Kidding aside, I base my past prediction fails on those games not being able to prove themselves by making a single high quality game.
Bioware has made many high quality games, Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Plus with DA and how they Did ME2. Now, I hear people that played ME1 dont like ME2 and well you are prejudiced by the first experience. I didnt Play ME1 so I have an objective point of view.
The mmo community is moving from the old style of rat quests, and raid the wabbit hole to more serious character driven and storyline based experiences with world changing events where your character can effect change.
Its an evolution of mmos that is upon us.
But most likely another one of those same ol same ol.
YAHTZEE!
This sucker will be hyped to infinity until release just like the countless other "BESTEST!!1ONe" MMOs out there. The problem is, this game will be just another theme park. Sure, it will draw in players like STO but most will leave after the first month or so. You can't keep making these linear type games and expect longevity.
Give us freedom or give us another game.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky