I would like to see more mmo's that follow the learning curve of chess or go, very easy to learn , and very hard to master. The challenge in those two classic games is not in how fast you move (speed/timed match's excluded) but in the strategic decisions you make, and attempting to out think many steps in advance. This is more difficult to create in a lot of modern mmo's becouse of the fast paced fighting, and button mashing, but i have high hopes that ffxiv will some how create a world, that while easy to jump in, will take a long time to truly master.
Good article. I do feel we will see another MMO that doesn't go out of its way to penalize players, and, yet, be rewarding at the same time. In fact, I play that MMO today. DDO.
Its difficult enough to keep the morons away, yet easy enough for smart, dedicated players to solo, or "short man" a quest(running a quest with 2 or 3 live players).
DAoC was one another game that was rewarding, yet not too harsh.
I think MMO devs need to think like a motivator thinks. If you are constantly insulting people, degrading them, and beating their self esteem into the ground that person will not be around you for very long. If you give them rewarding content, achievable goals, and build up their self worth, then that person is going to be around for a long time. That doesn't mean making sure someone reaches max level in a week, or recieves loot that trivializes the game. Just like great bosses/motivators don't hand over the company to their workers.
I think a similar comparison is the difference between a guy who would like to swim twenty laps at the local Y and another guy who would rather swim a mile along the pacific coast, open ocean, way past the breakers. Both men enjoy the ativity, just one wants to add an element that some would consider unnecessary, for whatever their reason, its not their cup of tea.
Regardless, it is choices we make based on our personality and preferences. As long as their is a market for us folk who enjoy walking the line of danger, there will continue to be games made for our niche group. However, it does seem that our group is getting smaller (and it is getting smaller or there would have never been Trammel and EA would have paid more attention to Siege Perilous and not added three huge land masses)
As a side note. I didn't play EVE very long, but one of my favorite memories is when I was soloing missions, all of a sudden another ship attacked me, destroyed all my drones, told me to cease fire so he we could negotiate a payoff otherwise he was going to kill me. I gladly handed over 5 millions ISK. After which he gave me advice on how to avoid such situations! You wont find that in many games.
I enjoyed this article, there is a lot of truth to what you say. As someone who threw many tantrums at my NES when I was a kid, I can totally relate (who turned off the NES?! I was on level 9!!!!). Saving your game was unheard of. I think because of these experiences I tend to enjoy more difficult games.
That being said, I can really appreciate the more casual games as well. Most of them do not hold my attention for long, but having a game you can play without needing to put forth serious "effort" can be a nice change of pace.
One of the reasons I am enjoying DDO so much right now is because you can scale the difficulty of dungeons up and down. Therefore, While I could easily run through the start of the game by myself by playing "solo" or "normal" modes, I can also choose to group (or not) and do those dungeons at "hard" or "elite" level. It's a nice flexibility, but only works because DDO is almost entirely instance based.
Nice article, but...... The "monster that is unkillable" in the first level, a.k.a. the first Red Eye Knight you meet in game, can be killed during the first play through of the level. The Red Eye Knight, like most obstacles in Demon's Souls can be beat through patience and caution. My favorite class, Royalty, starts at Soul Lvl 1 and is very capable of defeating the R.E.K. with the help of the Thieves Ring and Hit-And-Run tactics. For those of you that feel Demon's Souls is/may be too difficult I have this to say, I decided one day to see how far I could get before I had to lvl my Royal. I was able to defeat the first boss demon, Phalanx, as well as 3 other boss demons and the Red Dragon without summoning any Blue Phantoms or even dying once all with a lvl 1 character. The key, as I said above, is patience and caution. For the record, the other 3 bosses were: The Tower Knight, The Armor Spider and The Fool's Idol. Don't believe it is possible? Try it and see for yourself.
Don't get me wrong, the game can be, and often is, brutal and unforgiving. I nearly gave up when I first started playing but now I am hooked for life.
Maybe to you, and maybe now, but they were not always so. The "fun" of games for a considerable time was the challenge provided and rising to defeat said challenge. You used to have to actually MAKE CHOICES and TRY to win things. It has been taken to a complete extreme now where games pander to the lowest skill level. Things feel meaningless and frivolous because the choices are gone and your wins are just being handed to you. Demon Souls is a great example, because there is not a damn thing in that game that isn't EARNED with sweat blood and tears. There's no "press start for an achievement!" in Demon Souls. If you have a trophy from that game, you can be damn well sure someone worked their ass off for it. I'm not saying everything should be taken to the same unforgiving extreme, but theres a difference between making things less difficult and the pure dumbing down that is happening to games today. I'm a big boy, I won't cry because I didn't get a medal for losing.
But then again you're bitching about "professional lives" and assuming that having to actually pay attention to a game, and all the bullshit involved with a "professional life" require the same amount of effort, skills, social status, or luck, so I doubt you would understand anyway. Ironically, its not the people who "never had to struggle in life" that want a challenge. It's the people who've had everything handed to them that want to cruise through their video games. People who actually have to earn things are used to doing so, and can live with having to make choices you can't take back. You're the demographic the industry panders to now. Pat yourself on the back. You helped kill gaming.
Right, so because I like to cruise through my video games, I've had everything handed to me. Mmmkay. Hate to burst your (ill)logic bubble, but the word 'earn' implies a reward that is tangible and desirable. I've beaten a lot of video games (yes even hard ones, possibly even before you were born), but I have never 'earned' anything in a video game. Every video game has been beaten by thousands, if not millions of people, in the exact same way, using the exact same tactics, and for the exact same meaningless 'rewards.'
If it floats your boat spending weeks to beat a game on hard, that's terrific, but don't mistake that as some sort of accomplishment that should be bragged about.
It's frivolous, turn-your-brain off entertainment, just like going to a movie. Things earned are things of substance: respect, money, love (though that one isn't always earned).
Keep busting ass and earning your video game rewards though, and I'll keep killing gaming.
Agreed. I've never really understood the whole "challenge me with video games" mentality. Games are escapism, the good ones are like interactive novels. Folks that are measuring themselves against high scores and hard mode should probably put that kind of time and effort into their professional lives instead. Games are, you know, games. Diversions, distractions, ultimately meaningless and frivolous unless you're a pro athlete.
You know "onetruth", every game has some kind of challenge, challenge can entertain.
But you know what is really sad about your words? You presume that every good game is like "interactive novels", you presume that folks who enjoy challenging but fair games are not able to put "that kind of time and effort" into their professional/personal lives.
Even the games that really work as interactive novels like Heavy Rain, Syberia, Myst have some kind of challenge.
For some people it is really hard to understand what does not belong to their personal taste, the funny thing about the subject is that Demon's Souls is probably one of the most escapists games relased in the last years, but it seems you are busy trying to judge others to make you and your personal opinion sound better.
Fair challenge make you pay attention to every step you take, make the escapist experience more intense for some players.
...
You know, "Umbral," I'm sorry that my opinion hit so close to the mark for you. It is simply my opinion, and I meet people every day that validate it.
I've played Demon Souls and enjoyed it to a point, and I agree that it is very well done and immersive. That said, people that continually cry about games being too easy will never get sympathy from me.
If you've mastered something to the point that it's no longer challenging, go find something new to do, don't whine about the good old days and how much harder games used to be. There are a lot of people in this world that don't have the luxury of playing games at all, easy or hard.
Maybe to you, and maybe now, but they were not always so. The "fun" of games for a considerable time was the challenge provided and rising to defeat said challenge. You used to have to actually MAKE CHOICES and TRY to win things. It has been taken to a complete extreme now where games pander to the lowest skill level. Things feel meaningless and frivolous because the choices are gone and your wins are just being handed to you. Demon Souls is a great example, because there is not a damn thing in that game that isn't EARNED with sweat blood and tears. There's no "press start for an achievement!" in Demon Souls. If you have a trophy from that game, you can be damn well sure someone worked their ass off for it. I'm not saying everything should be taken to the same unforgiving extreme, but theres a difference between making things less difficult and the pure dumbing down that is happening to games today. I'm a big boy, I won't cry because I didn't get a medal for losing.
But then again you're bitching about "professional lives" and assuming that having to actually pay attention to a game, and all the bullshit involved with a "professional life" require the same amount of effort, skills, social status, or luck, so I doubt you would understand anyway. Ironically, its not the people who "never had to struggle in life" that want a challenge. It's the people who've had everything handed to them that want to cruise through their video games. People who actually have to earn things are used to doing so, and can live with having to make choices you can't take back. You're the demographic the industry panders to now. Pat yourself on the back. You helped kill gaming.
Lmao.
Erm, cry more?
Right, so because I like to cruise through my video games, I've had everything handed to me. Mmmkay. Hate to burst your (ill)logic bubble, but the word 'earn' implies a reward that is tangible and desirable. I've beaten a lot of video games (yes even hard ones, possibly even before you were born), but I have never 'earned' anything in a video game. Every video game has been beaten by thousands, if not millions of people, in the exact same way, using the exact same tactics, and for the exact same meaningless 'rewards.'
If it floats your boat spending weeks to beat a game on hard, that's terrific, but don't mistake that as some sort of accomplishment that should be bragged about.
It's frivolous, turn-your-brain off entertainment, just like going to a movie. Things earned are things of substance: respect, money, love (though that one isn't always earned).
The fact that people like you turn it into a job and, even more hysterically, ascribe some sort of fake reward system onto a completely meaningless act, is quite a sad commentary.
Keep busting ass and earning your video game rewards though, and I'll keep killing gaming.
Lol.
/salute
/claps
I applaud this statement. I don't know where people get off on telling other people that like a different KIND OF GAME than they do, that they're "killing gaming." What a moronic load of crap. LMAO
There's plenty of room in the world for masochistic gamers, and rest and relaxation gamers, and all kinds of OTHER gamers. And just because not ALL of us like challenges that make us want to rip our hair out from the roots, doesn't mean that either play style is RIGHT or WRONG. They're preferences.
Furthermore....they're preferences in GAMES, for fucksake. We're not talking life altering shit here. Mr. or Mrs. "Give Me Pain and Challenges that Make Me Throw the Game Controller at the Television Set," isn't any more RIGHT than Mr. or Ms. "Tell Me a Great Story and Let Me Enjoy Playing a Fairly Relaxing Part in It." We're ALL paying to play what WE PERSONALLY enjoy.
Oh yes...and NEWS FLASH......
Gaming isn't anywhere CLOSE to dying. It's more popular today that it has EVER been. It's just that NOW....games are made for all different kinds of people, different budgets, different intellects, different preferences, different time schedules, etc. etc. Maybe what the fellow that accused you of "killing gaming" is really upset about, is that it's no longer a private club where only the ubergeeks need apply. My mother can play games now if she wants to, and she's 67 years old. And frankly....I rather LIKE that there's now something out there for EVERYONE. I hate that elitism gamer mentality that assumes that gaming is only for geeks. HORSESHIT.
Gaming....is for EVERYONE.
I guess that just means that those of you that love your super hard challenges...will just have to live in the same world with those of us that DON'T particularly like their games THAT damn hard. Because guess what? We're not going anywhere. And I don't suppose that you all are either. So let's just agree that we REEEEEAALLLY disagree, and move along, eh?
While I understand the fondness toward "ye old games of yore" (trust me, I really do...I'm old, and played a lot of those old games), I've come to the conclusion that there is plenty of death, struggle, and misery in REAL life. Myself, (and I know I'm not alone in this) I would prefer LESS pain and misery in gaming. To me, it's not FUN to have to repeat something over and over and over and over to succeed. That is just way too fucking much like real life. Have I always felt this about games? NO. This opinion has actually changed with age.
Yes, in real life, every failure teaches you something, hopefully, that will bring you closer to success in the future. But seriously now...I don't want to "learn life lessons," necessarily, from games. I want to be interactively ENTERTAINED. For some people, I suppose (maybe those who haven't had that much struggle in real life, I don't know) struggling and painful deaths are entertaining and fun in a game. But since every gamer obviously doesn't agree....this is why I think having games that both do and don't have that required "suffering for success" in them....is a good thing. Otherwise....just give people the OPTION of painful or easy gaming mode....problem solved.
Any game that gives lots of options on HOW you play it, is probably apt to be more successful than a game that doesn't afford anyone any options. That goes for single player games AND MMOs, I believe. The more you allow a player to formulate their own way of playing and having fun...the better, imo.
Agreed.
I've never really understood the whole "challenge me with video games" mentality. Games are escapism, the good ones are like interactive novels. Folks that are measuring themselves against high scores and hard mode should probably put that kind of time and effort into their professional lives instead.
Games are, you know, games. Diversions, distractions, ultimately meaningless and frivolous unless you're a pro athlete.
Maybe to you, and maybe now, but they were not always so. The "fun" of games for a considerable time was the challenge provided and rising to defeat said challenge. You used to have to actually MAKE CHOICES and TRY to win things. It has been taken to a complete extreme now where games pander to the lowest skill level. Things feel meaningless and frivolous because the choices are gone and your wins are just being handed to you. Demon Souls is a great example, because there is not a damn thing in that game that isn't EARNED with sweat blood and tears. There's no "press start for an achievement!" in Demon Souls. If you have a trophy from that game, you can be damn well sure someone worked their ass off for it. I'm not saying everything should be taken to the same unforgiving extreme, but theres a difference between making things less difficult and the pure dumbing down that is happening to games today. I'm a big boy, I won't cry because I didn't get a medal for losing.
But then again you're bitching about "professional lives" and assuming that having to actually pay attention to a game, and all the bullshit involved with a "professional life" require the same amount of effort, skills, social status, or luck, so I doubt you would understand anyway. Ironically, its not the people who "never had to struggle in life" that want a challenge. It's the people who've had everything handed to them that want to cruise through their video games. People who actually have to earn things are used to doing so, and can live with having to make choices you can't take back. You're the demographic the industry panders to now. Pat yourself on the back. You helped kill gaming.
Well, I was with you until your last... From my perspective its not those who have a life outside of the game who are to blame for the endless dumbing down we've all witnessed. Its those who have allowed themselves to become dependent who make up that demographic. Not only dependent(which is bad enough), but also cursed with a strong sense of entitlement. Our entire society has rotted from the inside out due to the combination of those two traits. Where once we were a society of thinkers and doers(scientists, engineers, technicians, craftsmen), now FAR too many of us labor in the mind numbing "service" industries, or push little piles of paper from one side of ones desk to the other(government at all levels). The US has gone from the largest creditor nation, to the largest debtor nation in that same time span.
One can't really fault the game industry for playing to that ever increasing demographic. One of the main objects after all is to make a profit on the investments required. Blizzard has demonstrated the massive profits to be had by doing it right. Which has left many companies scrambling in the attempt to duplicate the success of World of Warcraft. But like it or not, the only threat to WoW at this point is Blizzard themselves.
But then again you're bitching about "professional lives" and assuming that having to actually pay attention to a game, and all the bullshit involved with a "professional life" require the same amount of effort, skills, social status, or luck, so I doubt you would understand anyway. Ironically, its not the people who "never had to struggle in life" that want a challenge. It's the people who've had everything handed to them that want to cruise through their video games. People who actually have to earn things are used to doing so, and can live with having to make choices you can't take back. You're the demographic the industry panders to now. Pat yourself on the back. You helped kill gaming.
Kordesh,
You talk about playing a GAME for entertainment as though it's in the same category with real life. No. I can say, with complete confidence, that you are DEAD WRONG (at least in regards to THAT matter).
There are a LOT...a WHOLE LOT...of people that work VERY hard every day that do NOT want to come home and play a "challenging" game, but do enjoy gaming. They don't WANT to have to come home and wrack their brain. And why SHOULD they?? No one is paying them to play a video game. They're doing it for FUN. Just because our ideas of fun are not identical doesn't mean we want everything "handed to us." That's a MASSIVE leap in logic there, Bud. (By the way, I didn't say that only people that didn't struggle in real life liked challenge in games. I was actually suggesting that as a laughable possibility, I said "perhaps," and "I don't know.") What I DO know....is that people have all DIFFERENT preferences in recreation. And your choices aren't right or wrong.
How is it that you perceive that their idea of FUN being relaxing and not overly difficult, has any reflection on how hard they work? So you're saying the oil rigger, that for recreation wants to go just lie on the beach for fun, is a lazy bastard who's had everything handed to him on a silver platter, essentially?
Thou dost protest too much, me thinks.....
By the way, I have 3 grown children. Parenting teaches you a lot about making choices you can't take back in SO many arenas.... REAL choices, not choices in a GAME. I don't really think any of us here probably have earned the right to lecture any of the rest of us here about making important choices. Real life does a fine job of testing ones' mettle. Games, to ME (yes...my OPINION) are not made for that purpose. But...to each their own. A few of us here happen to disagree with you. Some others agree with you. We're not going to change your mind, and likewise....you likely won't be changing ours.
theres a huge differance between hard and grinding, but it seems people today cant tell the difference so games like WoW(Which i do like despite being easy mode) prosper over other games that have long grinds/more challenges. Personally i feel a great sense of accomplishment when i finish a long quest chain in eq2 or other challenges
I think as a MMO developer (or I hope) you would want to put most of the decision in the hands of your players, not decide for them. Dungeons and Dragons Online had a good idea as a start but it's not exactly fine tuned. City of Heroes too allows for player to 'Pick' the difficulty they want to play at. Choice is always better.
I find great fun in shooting 500 zombies, and the occasional raid. It depends on my mood and what my friends are up to. I hate however being told "Nope, you don't get to decide" by a dungeon being so insanely difficult I must spend sixteen hours playing it, loaded with caffine, and have finely tuned twitch skills to get past it.
I believe, honestly, for a game to be enjoyable by a wide variety of individuals you must have options. Let individuals decide the difficulty of the content they play. Let players design their own 'dungeons' or missions for those whom might be interested. City of Heroes did this with architect to a certain extent. Players could review different dungeons and give feedback so other players weren't forced to play insanely difficult missions if they didn't want to.
That being said, the one thing both offline games, and mmos do wrong I believe is that they require you to play at a 'difficult' setting to get any sort of epic feeling going. I believe like options, players need a more epic feel sometimes. Personally being a lone hero against 500 enemies does it for me. If the enemies aren't necessarily hard, it makes me have a great deal of fun seeing how I can defeat, and how.
I have played the other side of things as well though. The satisfaction of beating something really hard is good, but most gamers now have arthritis/damaged nervous systems from all the button mashing/typing/mouse abuse they experienced when they were younger. Calculate your target audience, and appeal to it. Can you blame some companies for making games that are 'easy'?
That being said, here's one thing that bugged me about it. 'Accessible'. The word, presented within the context of this article, is directly at odd with difficulty. I disagree. That there, I believe, is the exact problem with difficulty.
Too many games use difficulty as not just a perk, but an excuse for poor game design. Demon's Souls, though not perfect, has a generally simple and responsive design to it. It doesn't take long to grasp how to play the game, and the challenge comes in mastering it. The reason why this is fun, and other games are not, is because while people do enjoy a challenge, they do not enjoy the challenge being to combat the game's design. It's no fun to not be able to beat a boss, because it's bugged (FFXI), nor is it fun to lose in a game because your skills don't work properly.
Difficulty should be a master stroke of good game design. It should be attempted by studios who know how to make a solid game first, then know how to make it challenging. The same trend found in demon's souls can also be found in many of the games most loved, and challenging. Super Mario, Eve, both these games can be picked up and excelled at by almost anyone, however the challenge tends to come from mastering it.
The trend for most MMOs for a long time has been to replace this key element of mastery, with the idea of investment or knowledge. MMOs have substituted difficulty for the amount of information or time one has to invest in a game to excel in it. As more and more people get sick of investing massive amounts of time to a game that plays exactly like the 50 before it, it gets more and more difficult to enjoy such a game. The challenge becomes more about memorizing where to find things (not much of one, given the internet), and less about how well you actually play.
I hope to see this trend start to turn around a bit.
Difficulty should be a master stroke of good game design. It should be attempted by studios who know how to make a solid game first, then know how to make it challenging. The same trend found in demon's souls can also be found in many of the games most loved, and challenging. Super Mario, Eve, both these games can be picked up and excelled at by almost anyone, however the challenge tends to come from mastering it.ou actually play.
This.
Demon's Souls is the epitome of crafted difficulty. The difficulty isn't because of poor designs, its from understanding the differences between weapons, between 2-hand and one-hand wielding them, parrying or guarding, using the dodge effectively, all of that. The only time a monster will not pose a threat is when you are levels above the area's intended difficulty (assuming you are neutral at tendency). The game has replay value, in that the difficulty increases with the new-game plus, and collecting all the unique weapons is quite the feat in itself. At best, it takes 4 replays to gather it all. Armor, at higher levels, becomes less effective, letting you choose your style for the most part.
And, reading this article has made me want to pick up and play some more Demon's Souls...
I can understand though, why people shun the idea of having a game with a system as harsh as DS's in an MMO. The game punishes you for rushing and being reckless and dumb. Yahtzee's review of it proves that. I am not saying he's dumb, rather he was trying to rush the game. As he said, the more he rushed, the more he died. A bloody good reason why you need a lot of time for Demon's Souls when reviewing it is precisely that. If you set yourself for playing only for 3 hours, as you get close to that mark, you'll just hurry more, and you'll make less progress. Given 20 hours, his opinion probably would of improved (though he wouldn't admit it, he's literally paid to nitpick).
An MMO that forced you to lose all your currency and unspent experience would drive players bonkers, specially if its in a PvP focused setting. Especially if you added a level-draining/losing mechanic like in Demon's Souls... whoo boy, people would go nuts over that... even if it was set to one very risky spell, or if you die to something so stupid you almost deserve it...
Agreed. I've never really understood the whole "challenge me with video games" mentality. Games are escapism, the good ones are like interactive novels. Folks that are measuring themselves against high scores and hard mode should probably put that kind of time and effort into their professional lives instead. Games are, you know, games. Diversions, distractions, ultimately meaningless and frivolous unless you're a pro athlete.
You know "onetruth", every game has some kind of challenge, challenge can entertain.
But you know what is really sad about your words? You presume that every good game is like "interactive novels", you presume that folks who enjoy challenging but fair games are not able to put "that kind of time and effort" into their professional/personal lives.
Even the games that really work as interactive novels like Heavy Rain, Syberia, Myst have some kind of challenge.
For some people it is really hard to understand what does not belong to their personal taste, the funny thing about the subject is that Demon's Souls is probably one of the most escapists games relased in the last years, but it seems you are busy trying to judge others to make you and your personal opinion sound better.
Fair challenge make you pay attention to every step you take, make the escapist experience more intense for some players.
...
You know, "Umbral," I'm sorry that my opinion hit so close to the mark for you. It is simply my opinion, and I meet people every day that validate it.
I've played Demon Souls and enjoyed it to a point, and I agree that it is very well done and immersive. That said, people that continually cry about games being too easy will never get sympathy from me.
If you've mastered something to the point that it's no longer challenging, go find something new to do, don't whine about the good old days and how much harder games used to be. There are a lot of people in this world that don't have the luxury of playing games at all, easy or hard, which is why I find it distasteful when whiny bitches complain that games aren't challenging enough for them.
Close to the mark for me?
Lets see... did I "cry" about games being too easy?
Did I whine about the good old days?
What I mentioned in your post is how you judge players that also like challenge games just like the one that will judge players that prefer easy ones.
Today is hard to find unique games, than you can call me a whiner because I can't stand every game turning into a shooter with a bald marine on it, but I won't bitch about it, I will just buy games like Demon's Souls and forget what I don't like... so, in the same way I think Demon's Souls is the best game of the last years, I am really waiting for Heavy Rain... a game which you can call an "interactive novel".
You assume to much, people don't want your "sympathy", but if your express your opinions in a forum expect to get answers, and not always people will agree with you.
There are all kinds of games and movies today, unfotunatelly the unique ones are harder to find and sometimes they do not belong to mainstream (sometimes they do), so it is understandable when you see someone looking for something that is rare to find, what is annoying is, that doesn't matter what someone enjoy or is looking for, there will always be someone judging and using lables on that person, just like you did... just like the guy calling a casual RP player "carebear" on this website.
Ok, this was bothering me a little. Call me nit-picky. Your description of demon's souls is a little off. You can exit the level without beating it. You just have to go back to the beginning. Of course then the monsters respawn, but it's your choice. Also, nothing kills you in one hit in the first level. Maybe they can stun you with their first hit and then hit you again and get you almost-death, but not kill you. Even if you're a barbarian (no armor). Also you can kill that "unkillable" thing. You just need a higher block and a better shield. You can't kill him at level 1. Although I stayed away from him the first time I saw him. He's glowing red. When everything else in the level is tan or brown zombie like guys or regular soldiers, or maybe someone who glowed blue a little, that slightly large suit of armor wielding a javelin on a bridge with a giant sheild MADE OF GLOWING RED ENERGY in an area clearly not made for a boss, kinda dissuaded me from attempting to kill him. Not to say this game isn't hard, though. It's kinda refreshing to get punched in the face by a game. And it's fun. Really fun. The PvP creates some EPIC battles, too. I was fighting this one guy for so long that both of our weapons broke and most of our armor was gone. I finally Got him trapped in a corner and firebombed him into the ground, but it lasted a good 45 minutes or more. It was awesome. He's now my friend.
You are right about all your points related to Demon's Souls, the article really has some mistakes.
Especially about the "unkillable" knight... after 1-3 /1-4 the red eyes knight is a standart enemy in the game but you are also much more stronger.
I am under the impression that Justin Webb played only the first hours of Demon's Souls, if my impression is right then a couple of his mistakes can be understandable...his article is not exactly about Demon's Souls anyway.
I agree with you about PvP, the multiplayer mode is also very interesting.
What I really missed about Justin Webb comments related to Demon's Souls is the detail about how fair the game is, I know a lot of posters here already said that (myself included), but from the article Demon's Souls sound more like a punishing game than a challenging one, the only time when Demon's Souls will punish the player is when the gamers is not paying attention or making huge mistakes.
It is really hard to find a challenging game that also has perfect balance and fairness... Demon's Souls is one of these exceptions.
The eerie and melancholic atmosphere that Demon's Souls has is also unique.
To tell the truth, I think some details like the melancholic atmosphere, the MMO similarities (the game is saved every second like in a persistent game), the unique and "mystic" way the multiplayers actions take place and the complex but balanced RPG system behind the game are details that are more important in Demon's Souls than the balanced intense challenge. The rewarding challenge is, without a doubt a plus, but Demon's Souls has much more than that to offer.
I haven't played Demon Souls, and probably won't either. But I did spend months (and yes years too) playing Manic Miner and Jet Set Willy (I did finally complete Manic Miner, but even with infinite lives JSW was just too damned hard).
But it was the teasing ability to go one more step, combined with ultra-simple gameplay (no series of icon bars running all the way round the screen, just left, right and jump) that kept me hooked. In the same way that I loved Tetris (there is no end, seriously you can play that 24 hours a day, 365 days a week and it's still exactly the same but people played it for months on end).
But there's a difference between the teasing challenge of the simple games, and the ridiculously annoying too hard boss fight at the end of a level of a game you've paid an arm and a leg for (JSW was 3 quid compared to the 50/60 today for a new release) that you try to do for 15+ hours, before giving up.
And in an MMORPG you have to allow for every player to have that level of commitment in order for it to succeed as a "hard mode" which is why so few players bothered to PuG in WoW until the dungeon finder tool came along. For every gamer that loves the ridiculous challenge, there are 99 who don't, can't be bothered and want value for their money too.
Why would anyone get involved with an MMORPG if they knew (and it doesn't take long for feedback to get out there) that after 1 week of playing, they wouldn't be any further than when they started.
So many good games (like X^2 for example) disappeared due to their ridiculous learning curves (and x^2 could actually be completed, it was just too much effort for most).
So now, my mobile phone is where I play frustrating but simple games (pick up, play a level, put down, forget for a month or so and then move on). for my megabucks subscriptions to online stuff I really need more to keep my interest and to feel that I have value for money.
I enjoy end game content but minor gear progression isn't it. And sandbox environments like EVE don't really do it for me either. For an MMORPG I probably have a two year limit with all the progression thrown in, and collecting achievements etc. (as per WoW) but when all is said and done, even with the "relative ease" of games like WoW, they're still the same mindless button pushing as Manic Miner, they're just prettier and more rewarding as that button pushing moves on.
Banging your head against the wall for 40 hours a week trying to make miniscule progress? It might have kept me busy as a kid during the summer holidays, now... I need more.
Game design is now viewed as a marketing decision. You used to create a great game and because it was great players wanted to buy it. Now games are created with their demographic in mind and in an effort to make that demographic as large as possible they are all on easy mode.
The marketing concept is that we would prefer to finish the game than valiantly fail and if you can’t succeed in a MMO that means a cancelled sub. But I question the psychology involved; hard games maintain interest and a MMO once completed is one people move on from. MMO’s have substituted difficulty for grind, we used to have grind, but now we have more of it to make up for the fact it is easier.
Do players play a game to complete it or because it challenges them? I think that even if you start gaming just wanting to complete a game you soon search for a challenge. Corporate’s have lost sight of the fact that games reflect life, driving to work is not as interesting as driving a stock car. Completing a 9 to 5 is not as interesting as saving a patient’s life in surgery or arresting a criminal.
Easy MMO’s are a major factor contributing to MMO launch fails and the inability of MMO’s to maintain traction in their player base. But what do MMO’s do when they see the player numbers falling? They make the game easier thinking it will attract more players that way, what they think is a cure is in fact helping to kill them.
Surely it's about having both that enables MMO success? Look at WoW, you can level to 80 solo or grouped, you can PvP or not, you can instance run or not, and you can raid or not. All these things are set at different levels of difficulty, we quit after wiping ten times on Toravon in VoA 25 last week for example, but I know I'll go back and try again. But if I simply couldn't progress in anything? It would be Tetris all over again, and not worth my subscription fee.
Like a lot have said, a challenging game needs to easy to learn and hard to master (Demon's Souls being a good example, Super Mario Bros. 3 being the best example I have played yet), but like most things it's a lot easier said than done.
I think a good starting point would be add challenges (and I don't mean 'achievements') to an otherwise 'easy mode' MMO. For example, when I was playing WoW I used to try to solo elites for the fun it. Another example would be running instances with less than the maximum number of people. If you took activities like that and attached a reward to it, say slightly better drops (like what normally drops +1), you could build a system that catered to both those just looking for some fun, and those looking for a challenge.
An important point though would be to keep players moving forward, even if only a little. By this I mean don't have exp / level / item loss unless it is absolutely the players choice and they are fully aware of the risks (like when invading another players game in Demon's Souls where you risk losing a level).
Like a lot have said, a challenging game needs to easy to learn and hard to master (Demon's Souls being a good example, Super Mario Bros. 3 being the best example I have played yet), but like most things it's a lot easier said than done. I think a good starting point would be add challenges (and I don't mean 'achievements') to an otherwise 'easy mode' MMO. For example, when I was playing WoW I used to try to solo elites for the fun it. Another example would be running instances with less than the maximum number of people. If you took activities like that and attached a reward to it, say slightly better drops (like what normally drops +1), you could build a system that catered to both those just looking for some fun, and those looking for a challenge. An important point though would be to keep players moving forward, even if only a little. By this I mean don't have exp / level / item loss unless it is absolutely the players choice and they are fully aware of the risks (like when invading another players game in Demon's Souls where you risk losing a level).
I did that too,in WoW.:)
I not a Masochrist,or whatever it is( I'm sadistic though) and I enjoy difficult games. Mostly for the bragging rights. Beating a difficult game is like beating a top Chess player in a match. People said a game should be fun. Well, some people get fun from having a challenge,not being beaten with a stick just because the game is impossiple. I'm not a hardcore gamer, but I enjoy games for the challenge that have that brings out your skill. Trauma Center is a another good game. Its fair,actually unrealistic in my opinion, and takes skill. And if your skilled enough,then its "difficulty" isn't as difficult.
I have tried many MMOs over the last few years, and have noticed a paradox: the more often your charaacter dies in the game, the more ALIVE it feels! For example, when I tried out LOTRO, my character felt like a piece of code - I got to level 9 without dieing once! It felt boring. By contrast, when playing WoW, i found myself needing to keep track of my character's armour, weapons, durability, mana... Almost like taking care of it. Now I'm playing Face of Mankind, getting shot dead by gankers every day and loving it! I'll find a way to beat them soon...
In other words, the harder the game is to win, the more interest there is in beating it. Players should feel like they've EARNED their victory. Developers, give us harder games please!
I don't understand this article... why he is moaning about lack of hardcore games on mmo market? Except for some occasional trials, last 7 years of my mmorpg gaming I spend in Lineage 2 (running around red is fun :P), EVE (my shiny ship just went poof) and DF (my shiny armor just went poof). If you are looking for harder mmo you will find one. Playing WoW or WoW clones and whining there nothing out there is just silly.
Lineage 2 is a time consuming game, encounters and dynamics in Lineage 2 are simple and easier than EQ/EQ2/WoW.
You may say leveling, death penalty and gear are much more time consuming, expensive and harsh than some other MMOs, but the game itself is not "hard". Especially PvE, you need less strategy in Lineage 2 group/raid/dungeon than in FFXI, GW, WoW, EQ, EQ2 etc
Maybe to you, and maybe now, but they were not always so. The "fun" of games for a considerable time was the challenge provided and rising to defeat said challenge. You used to have to actually MAKE CHOICES and TRY to win things. It has been taken to a complete extreme now where games pander to the lowest skill level. Things feel meaningless and frivolous because the choices are gone and your wins are just being handed to you. Demon Souls is a great example, because there is not a damn thing in that game that isn't EARNED with sweat blood and tears. There's no "press start for an achievement!" in Demon Souls. If you have a trophy from that game, you can be damn well sure someone worked their ass off for it. I'm not saying everything should be taken to the same unforgiving extreme, but theres a difference between making things less difficult and the pure dumbing down that is happening to games today. I'm a big boy, I won't cry because I didn't get a medal for losing.
But then again you're bitching about "professional lives" and assuming that having to actually pay attention to a game, and all the bullshit involved with a "professional life" require the same amount of effort, skills, social status, or luck, so I doubt you would understand anyway. Ironically, its not the people who "never had to struggle in life" that want a challenge. It's the people who've had everything handed to them that want to cruise through their video games. People who actually have to earn things are used to doing so, and can live with having to make choices you can't take back. You're the demographic the industry panders to now. Pat yourself on the back. You helped kill gaming.
Lmao.
Erm, cry more?
Right, so because I like to cruise through my video games, I've had everything handed to me. Mmmkay. Hate to burst your (ill)logic bubble, but the word 'earn' implies a reward that is tangible and desirable. I've beaten a lot of video games (yes even hard ones, possibly even before you were born), but I have never 'earned' anything in a video game. Every video game has been beaten by thousands, if not millions of people, in the exact same way, using the exact same tactics, and for the exact same meaningless 'rewards.'
If it floats your boat spending weeks to beat a game on hard, that's terrific, but don't mistake that as some sort of accomplishment that should be bragged about.
It's frivolous, turn-your-brain off entertainment, just like going to a movie. Things earned are things of substance: respect, money, love (though that one isn't always earned).
The fact that people like you turn it into a job and, even more hysterically, ascribe some sort of fake reward system onto a completely meaningless act, is quite a sad commentary.
Keep busting ass and earning your video game rewards though, and I'll keep killing gaming.
Lol.
/salute
/claps
I applaud this statement. I don't know where people get off on telling other people that like a different KIND OF GAME than they do, that they're "killing gaming." What a moronic load of crap. LMAO
There's plenty of room in the world for masochistic gamers, and rest and relaxation gamers, and all kinds of OTHER gamers. And just because not ALL of us like challenges that make us want to rip our hair out from the roots, doesn't mean that either play style is RIGHT or WRONG. They're preferences.
Furthermore....they're preferences in GAMES, for fucksake. We're not talking life altering shit here. Mr. or Mrs. "Give Me Pain and Challenges that Make Me Throw the Game Controller at the Television Set," isn't any more RIGHT than Mr. or Ms. "Tell Me a Great Story and Let Me Enjoy Playing a Fairly Relaxing Part in It." We're ALL paying to play what WE PERSONALLY enjoy.
Oh yes...and NEWS FLASH......
Gaming isn't anywhere CLOSE to dying. It's more popular today that it has EVER been. It's just that NOW....games are made for all different kinds of people, different budgets, different intellects, different preferences, different time schedules, etc. etc. Maybe what the fellow that accused you of "killing gaming" is really upset about, is that it's no longer a private club where only the ubergeeks need apply. My mother can play games now if she wants to, and she's 67 years old. And frankly....I rather LIKE that there's now something out there for EVERYONE. I hate that elitism gamer mentality that assumes that gaming is only for geeks. HORSESHIT.
Gaming....is for EVERYONE.
I guess that just means that those of you that love your super hard challenges...will just have to live in the same world with those of us that DON'T particularly like their games THAT damn hard. Because guess what? We're not going anywhere. And I don't suppose that you all are either. So let's just agree that we REEEEEAALLLY disagree, and move along, eh?
This. Props to girlgeek. To each his own, and let's all remember we're playing games.
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Hey Hey
I would like to see more mmo's that follow the learning curve of chess or go, very easy to learn , and very hard to master. The challenge in those two classic games is not in how fast you move (speed/timed match's excluded) but in the strategic decisions you make, and attempting to out think many steps in advance. This is more difficult to create in a lot of modern mmo's becouse of the fast paced fighting, and button mashing, but i have high hopes that ffxiv will some how create a world, that while easy to jump in, will take a long time to truly master.
Welcome Home
Rev
Good article. I do feel we will see another MMO that doesn't go out of its way to penalize players, and, yet, be rewarding at the same time. In fact, I play that MMO today. DDO.
Its difficult enough to keep the morons away, yet easy enough for smart, dedicated players to solo, or "short man" a quest(running a quest with 2 or 3 live players).
DAoC was one another game that was rewarding, yet not too harsh.
I think MMO devs need to think like a motivator thinks. If you are constantly insulting people, degrading them, and beating their self esteem into the ground that person will not be around you for very long. If you give them rewarding content, achievable goals, and build up their self worth, then that person is going to be around for a long time. That doesn't mean making sure someone reaches max level in a week, or recieves loot that trivializes the game. Just like great bosses/motivators don't hand over the company to their workers.
I think a similar comparison is the difference between a guy who would like to swim twenty laps at the local Y and another guy who would rather swim a mile along the pacific coast, open ocean, way past the breakers. Both men enjoy the ativity, just one wants to add an element that some would consider unnecessary, for whatever their reason, its not their cup of tea.
Regardless, it is choices we make based on our personality and preferences. As long as their is a market for us folk who enjoy walking the line of danger, there will continue to be games made for our niche group. However, it does seem that our group is getting smaller (and it is getting smaller or there would have never been Trammel and EA would have paid more attention to Siege Perilous and not added three huge land masses)
As a side note. I didn't play EVE very long, but one of my favorite memories is when I was soloing missions, all of a sudden another ship attacked me, destroyed all my drones, told me to cease fire so he we could negotiate a payoff otherwise he was going to kill me. I gladly handed over 5 millions ISK. After which he gave me advice on how to avoid such situations! You wont find that in many games.
It's the choices we make.
Play a role! Shadowclan
I enjoyed this article, there is a lot of truth to what you say. As someone who threw many tantrums at my NES when I was a kid, I can totally relate (who turned off the NES?! I was on level 9!!!!). Saving your game was unheard of. I think because of these experiences I tend to enjoy more difficult games.
That being said, I can really appreciate the more casual games as well. Most of them do not hold my attention for long, but having a game you can play without needing to put forth serious "effort" can be a nice change of pace.
One of the reasons I am enjoying DDO so much right now is because you can scale the difficulty of dungeons up and down. Therefore, While I could easily run through the start of the game by myself by playing "solo" or "normal" modes, I can also choose to group (or not) and do those dungeons at "hard" or "elite" level. It's a nice flexibility, but only works because DDO is almost entirely instance based.
Nice article, but...... The "monster that is unkillable" in the first level, a.k.a. the first Red Eye Knight you meet in game, can be killed during the first play through of the level. The Red Eye Knight, like most obstacles in Demon's Souls can be beat through patience and caution. My favorite class, Royalty, starts at Soul Lvl 1 and is very capable of defeating the R.E.K. with the help of the Thieves Ring and Hit-And-Run tactics. For those of you that feel Demon's Souls is/may be too difficult I have this to say, I decided one day to see how far I could get before I had to lvl my Royal. I was able to defeat the first boss demon, Phalanx, as well as 3 other boss demons and the Red Dragon without summoning any Blue Phantoms or even dying once all with a lvl 1 character. The key, as I said above, is patience and caution. For the record, the other 3 bosses were: The Tower Knight, The Armor Spider and The Fool's Idol. Don't believe it is possible? Try it and see for yourself.
Don't get me wrong, the game can be, and often is, brutal and unforgiving. I nearly gave up when I first started playing but now I am hooked for life.
Maybe to you, and maybe now, but they were not always so. The "fun" of games for a considerable time was the challenge provided and rising to defeat said challenge. You used to have to actually MAKE CHOICES and TRY to win things. It has been taken to a complete extreme now where games pander to the lowest skill level. Things feel meaningless and frivolous because the choices are gone and your wins are just being handed to you. Demon Souls is a great example, because there is not a damn thing in that game that isn't EARNED with sweat blood and tears. There's no "press start for an achievement!" in Demon Souls. If you have a trophy from that game, you can be damn well sure someone worked their ass off for it. I'm not saying everything should be taken to the same unforgiving extreme, but theres a difference between making things less difficult and the pure dumbing down that is happening to games today. I'm a big boy, I won't cry because I didn't get a medal for losing.
But then again you're bitching about "professional lives" and assuming that having to actually pay attention to a game, and all the bullshit involved with a "professional life" require the same amount of effort, skills, social status, or luck, so I doubt you would understand anyway. Ironically, its not the people who "never had to struggle in life" that want a challenge. It's the people who've had everything handed to them that want to cruise through their video games. People who actually have to earn things are used to doing so, and can live with having to make choices you can't take back. You're the demographic the industry panders to now. Pat yourself on the back. You helped kill gaming.
Right, so because I like to cruise through my video games, I've had everything handed to me. Mmmkay. Hate to burst your (ill)logic bubble, but the word 'earn' implies a reward that is tangible and desirable. I've beaten a lot of video games (yes even hard ones, possibly even before you were born), but I have never 'earned' anything in a video game. Every video game has been beaten by thousands, if not millions of people, in the exact same way, using the exact same tactics, and for the exact same meaningless 'rewards.'
If it floats your boat spending weeks to beat a game on hard, that's terrific, but don't mistake that as some sort of accomplishment that should be bragged about.
It's frivolous, turn-your-brain off entertainment, just like going to a movie. Things earned are things of substance: respect, money, love (though that one isn't always earned).
Keep busting ass and earning your video game rewards though, and I'll keep killing gaming.
[Mod edit]
...
You know "onetruth", every game has some kind of challenge, challenge can entertain.
But you know what is really sad about your words? You presume that every good game is like "interactive novels", you presume that folks who enjoy challenging but fair games are not able to put "that kind of time and effort" into their professional/personal lives.
Even the games that really work as interactive novels like Heavy Rain, Syberia, Myst have some kind of challenge.
For some people it is really hard to understand what does not belong to their personal taste, the funny thing about the subject is that Demon's Souls is probably one of the most escapists games relased in the last years, but it seems you are busy trying to judge others to make you and your personal opinion sound better.
Fair challenge make you pay attention to every step you take, make the escapist experience more intense for some players.
...
You know, "Umbral," I'm sorry that my opinion hit so close to the mark for you. It is simply my opinion, and I meet people every day that validate it.
I've played Demon Souls and enjoyed it to a point, and I agree that it is very well done and immersive. That said, people that continually cry about games being too easy will never get sympathy from me.
If you've mastered something to the point that it's no longer challenging, go find something new to do, don't whine about the good old days and how much harder games used to be. There are a lot of people in this world that don't have the luxury of playing games at all, easy or hard.
[Mod edit]
...
Maybe to you, and maybe now, but they were not always so. The "fun" of games for a considerable time was the challenge provided and rising to defeat said challenge. You used to have to actually MAKE CHOICES and TRY to win things. It has been taken to a complete extreme now where games pander to the lowest skill level. Things feel meaningless and frivolous because the choices are gone and your wins are just being handed to you. Demon Souls is a great example, because there is not a damn thing in that game that isn't EARNED with sweat blood and tears. There's no "press start for an achievement!" in Demon Souls. If you have a trophy from that game, you can be damn well sure someone worked their ass off for it. I'm not saying everything should be taken to the same unforgiving extreme, but theres a difference between making things less difficult and the pure dumbing down that is happening to games today. I'm a big boy, I won't cry because I didn't get a medal for losing.
But then again you're bitching about "professional lives" and assuming that having to actually pay attention to a game, and all the bullshit involved with a "professional life" require the same amount of effort, skills, social status, or luck, so I doubt you would understand anyway. Ironically, its not the people who "never had to struggle in life" that want a challenge. It's the people who've had everything handed to them that want to cruise through their video games. People who actually have to earn things are used to doing so, and can live with having to make choices you can't take back. You're the demographic the industry panders to now. Pat yourself on the back. You helped kill gaming.
Lmao.
Erm, cry more?
Right, so because I like to cruise through my video games, I've had everything handed to me. Mmmkay. Hate to burst your (ill)logic bubble, but the word 'earn' implies a reward that is tangible and desirable. I've beaten a lot of video games (yes even hard ones, possibly even before you were born), but I have never 'earned' anything in a video game. Every video game has been beaten by thousands, if not millions of people, in the exact same way, using the exact same tactics, and for the exact same meaningless 'rewards.'
If it floats your boat spending weeks to beat a game on hard, that's terrific, but don't mistake that as some sort of accomplishment that should be bragged about.
It's frivolous, turn-your-brain off entertainment, just like going to a movie. Things earned are things of substance: respect, money, love (though that one isn't always earned).
The fact that people like you turn it into a job and, even more hysterically, ascribe some sort of fake reward system onto a completely meaningless act, is quite a sad commentary.
Keep busting ass and earning your video game rewards though, and I'll keep killing gaming.
Lol.
/salute
/claps
I applaud this statement. I don't know where people get off on telling other people that like a different KIND OF GAME than they do, that they're "killing gaming." What a moronic load of crap. LMAO
There's plenty of room in the world for masochistic gamers, and rest and relaxation gamers, and all kinds of OTHER gamers. And just because not ALL of us like challenges that make us want to rip our hair out from the roots, doesn't mean that either play style is RIGHT or WRONG. They're preferences.
Furthermore....they're preferences in GAMES, for fucksake. We're not talking life altering shit here. Mr. or Mrs. "Give Me Pain and Challenges that Make Me Throw the Game Controller at the Television Set," isn't any more RIGHT than Mr. or Ms. "Tell Me a Great Story and Let Me Enjoy Playing a Fairly Relaxing Part in It." We're ALL paying to play what WE PERSONALLY enjoy.
Oh yes...and NEWS FLASH......
Gaming isn't anywhere CLOSE to dying. It's more popular today that it has EVER been. It's just that NOW....games are made for all different kinds of people, different budgets, different intellects, different preferences, different time schedules, etc. etc. Maybe what the fellow that accused you of "killing gaming" is really upset about, is that it's no longer a private club where only the ubergeeks need apply. My mother can play games now if she wants to, and she's 67 years old. And frankly....I rather LIKE that there's now something out there for EVERYONE. I hate that elitism gamer mentality that assumes that gaming is only for geeks. HORSESHIT.
Gaming....is for EVERYONE.
I guess that just means that those of you that love your super hard challenges...will just have to live in the same world with those of us that DON'T particularly like their games THAT damn hard. Because guess what? We're not going anywhere. And I don't suppose that you all are either. So let's just agree that we REEEEEAALLLY disagree, and move along, eh?
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Agreed.
I've never really understood the whole "challenge me with video games" mentality. Games are escapism, the good ones are like interactive novels. Folks that are measuring themselves against high scores and hard mode should probably put that kind of time and effort into their professional lives instead.
Games are, you know, games. Diversions, distractions, ultimately meaningless and frivolous unless you're a pro athlete.
Maybe to you, and maybe now, but they were not always so. The "fun" of games for a considerable time was the challenge provided and rising to defeat said challenge. You used to have to actually MAKE CHOICES and TRY to win things. It has been taken to a complete extreme now where games pander to the lowest skill level. Things feel meaningless and frivolous because the choices are gone and your wins are just being handed to you. Demon Souls is a great example, because there is not a damn thing in that game that isn't EARNED with sweat blood and tears. There's no "press start for an achievement!" in Demon Souls. If you have a trophy from that game, you can be damn well sure someone worked their ass off for it. I'm not saying everything should be taken to the same unforgiving extreme, but theres a difference between making things less difficult and the pure dumbing down that is happening to games today. I'm a big boy, I won't cry because I didn't get a medal for losing.
But then again you're bitching about "professional lives" and assuming that having to actually pay attention to a game, and all the bullshit involved with a "professional life" require the same amount of effort, skills, social status, or luck, so I doubt you would understand anyway. Ironically, its not the people who "never had to struggle in life" that want a challenge. It's the people who've had everything handed to them that want to cruise through their video games. People who actually have to earn things are used to doing so, and can live with having to make choices you can't take back. You're the demographic the industry panders to now. Pat yourself on the back. You helped kill gaming.
Well, I was with you until your last... From my perspective its not those who have a life outside of the game who are to blame for the endless dumbing down we've all witnessed. Its those who have allowed themselves to become dependent who make up that demographic. Not only dependent(which is bad enough), but also cursed with a strong sense of entitlement. Our entire society has rotted from the inside out due to the combination of those two traits. Where once we were a society of thinkers and doers(scientists, engineers, technicians, craftsmen), now FAR too many of us labor in the mind numbing "service" industries, or push little piles of paper from one side of ones desk to the other(government at all levels). The US has gone from the largest creditor nation, to the largest debtor nation in that same time span.
One can't really fault the game industry for playing to that ever increasing demographic. One of the main objects after all is to make a profit on the investments required. Blizzard has demonstrated the massive profits to be had by doing it right. Which has left many companies scrambling in the attempt to duplicate the success of World of Warcraft. But like it or not, the only threat to WoW at this point is Blizzard themselves.
Kordesh,
You talk about playing a GAME for entertainment as though it's in the same category with real life. No. I can say, with complete confidence, that you are DEAD WRONG (at least in regards to THAT matter).
There are a LOT...a WHOLE LOT...of people that work VERY hard every day that do NOT want to come home and play a "challenging" game, but do enjoy gaming. They don't WANT to have to come home and wrack their brain. And why SHOULD they?? No one is paying them to play a video game. They're doing it for FUN. Just because our ideas of fun are not identical doesn't mean we want everything "handed to us." That's a MASSIVE leap in logic there, Bud. (By the way, I didn't say that only people that didn't struggle in real life liked challenge in games. I was actually suggesting that as a laughable possibility, I said "perhaps," and "I don't know.") What I DO know....is that people have all DIFFERENT preferences in recreation. And your choices aren't right or wrong.
How is it that you perceive that their idea of FUN being relaxing and not overly difficult, has any reflection on how hard they work? So you're saying the oil rigger, that for recreation wants to go just lie on the beach for fun, is a lazy bastard who's had everything handed to him on a silver platter, essentially?
Thou dost protest too much, me thinks.....
By the way, I have 3 grown children. Parenting teaches you a lot about making choices you can't take back in SO many arenas.... REAL choices, not choices in a GAME. I don't really think any of us here probably have earned the right to lecture any of the rest of us here about making important choices. Real life does a fine job of testing ones' mettle. Games, to ME (yes...my OPINION) are not made for that purpose. But...to each their own. A few of us here happen to disagree with you. Some others agree with you. We're not going to change your mind, and likewise....you likely won't be changing ours.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
theres a huge differance between hard and grinding, but it seems people today cant tell the difference so games like WoW(Which i do like despite being easy mode) prosper over other games that have long grinds/more challenges. Personally i feel a great sense of accomplishment when i finish a long quest chain in eq2 or other challenges
I think as a MMO developer (or I hope) you would want to put most of the decision in the hands of your players, not decide for them. Dungeons and Dragons Online had a good idea as a start but it's not exactly fine tuned. City of Heroes too allows for player to 'Pick' the difficulty they want to play at. Choice is always better.
I find great fun in shooting 500 zombies, and the occasional raid. It depends on my mood and what my friends are up to. I hate however being told "Nope, you don't get to decide" by a dungeon being so insanely difficult I must spend sixteen hours playing it, loaded with caffine, and have finely tuned twitch skills to get past it.
I believe, honestly, for a game to be enjoyable by a wide variety of individuals you must have options. Let individuals decide the difficulty of the content they play. Let players design their own 'dungeons' or missions for those whom might be interested. City of Heroes did this with architect to a certain extent. Players could review different dungeons and give feedback so other players weren't forced to play insanely difficult missions if they didn't want to.
That being said, the one thing both offline games, and mmos do wrong I believe is that they require you to play at a 'difficult' setting to get any sort of epic feeling going. I believe like options, players need a more epic feel sometimes. Personally being a lone hero against 500 enemies does it for me. If the enemies aren't necessarily hard, it makes me have a great deal of fun seeing how I can defeat, and how.
I have played the other side of things as well though. The satisfaction of beating something really hard is good, but most gamers now have arthritis/damaged nervous systems from all the button mashing/typing/mouse abuse they experienced when they were younger. Calculate your target audience, and appeal to it. Can you blame some companies for making games that are 'easy'?
First off, very well written article. Kudos.
That being said, here's one thing that bugged me about it. 'Accessible'. The word, presented within the context of this article, is directly at odd with difficulty. I disagree. That there, I believe, is the exact problem with difficulty.
Too many games use difficulty as not just a perk, but an excuse for poor game design. Demon's Souls, though not perfect, has a generally simple and responsive design to it. It doesn't take long to grasp how to play the game, and the challenge comes in mastering it. The reason why this is fun, and other games are not, is because while people do enjoy a challenge, they do not enjoy the challenge being to combat the game's design. It's no fun to not be able to beat a boss, because it's bugged (FFXI), nor is it fun to lose in a game because your skills don't work properly.
Difficulty should be a master stroke of good game design. It should be attempted by studios who know how to make a solid game first, then know how to make it challenging. The same trend found in demon's souls can also be found in many of the games most loved, and challenging. Super Mario, Eve, both these games can be picked up and excelled at by almost anyone, however the challenge tends to come from mastering it.
The trend for most MMOs for a long time has been to replace this key element of mastery, with the idea of investment or knowledge. MMOs have substituted difficulty for the amount of information or time one has to invest in a game to excel in it. As more and more people get sick of investing massive amounts of time to a game that plays exactly like the 50 before it, it gets more and more difficult to enjoy such a game. The challenge becomes more about memorizing where to find things (not much of one, given the internet), and less about how well you actually play.
I hope to see this trend start to turn around a bit.
This.
Demon's Souls is the epitome of crafted difficulty. The difficulty isn't because of poor designs, its from understanding the differences between weapons, between 2-hand and one-hand wielding them, parrying or guarding, using the dodge effectively, all of that. The only time a monster will not pose a threat is when you are levels above the area's intended difficulty (assuming you are neutral at tendency). The game has replay value, in that the difficulty increases with the new-game plus, and collecting all the unique weapons is quite the feat in itself. At best, it takes 4 replays to gather it all. Armor, at higher levels, becomes less effective, letting you choose your style for the most part.
And, reading this article has made me want to pick up and play some more Demon's Souls...
I can understand though, why people shun the idea of having a game with a system as harsh as DS's in an MMO. The game punishes you for rushing and being reckless and dumb. Yahtzee's review of it proves that. I am not saying he's dumb, rather he was trying to rush the game. As he said, the more he rushed, the more he died. A bloody good reason why you need a lot of time for Demon's Souls when reviewing it is precisely that. If you set yourself for playing only for 3 hours, as you get close to that mark, you'll just hurry more, and you'll make less progress. Given 20 hours, his opinion probably would of improved (though he wouldn't admit it, he's literally paid to nitpick).
An MMO that forced you to lose all your currency and unspent experience would drive players bonkers, specially if its in a PvP focused setting. Especially if you added a level-draining/losing mechanic like in Demon's Souls... whoo boy, people would go nuts over that... even if it was set to one very risky spell, or if you die to something so stupid you almost deserve it...
You know "onetruth", every game has some kind of challenge, challenge can entertain.
But you know what is really sad about your words? You presume that every good game is like "interactive novels", you presume that folks who enjoy challenging but fair games are not able to put "that kind of time and effort" into their professional/personal lives.
Even the games that really work as interactive novels like Heavy Rain, Syberia, Myst have some kind of challenge.
For some people it is really hard to understand what does not belong to their personal taste, the funny thing about the subject is that Demon's Souls is probably one of the most escapists games relased in the last years, but it seems you are busy trying to judge others to make you and your personal opinion sound better.
Fair challenge make you pay attention to every step you take, make the escapist experience more intense for some players.
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You know, "Umbral," I'm sorry that my opinion hit so close to the mark for you. It is simply my opinion, and I meet people every day that validate it.
I've played Demon Souls and enjoyed it to a point, and I agree that it is very well done and immersive. That said, people that continually cry about games being too easy will never get sympathy from me.
If you've mastered something to the point that it's no longer challenging, go find something new to do, don't whine about the good old days and how much harder games used to be. There are a lot of people in this world that don't have the luxury of playing games at all, easy or hard, which is why I find it distasteful when whiny bitches complain that games aren't challenging enough for them.
Close to the mark for me?
Lets see... did I "cry" about games being too easy?
Did I whine about the good old days?
What I mentioned in your post is how you judge players that also like challenge games just like the one that will judge players that prefer easy ones.
Today is hard to find unique games, than you can call me a whiner because I can't stand every game turning into a shooter with a bald marine on it, but I won't bitch about it, I will just buy games like Demon's Souls and forget what I don't like... so, in the same way I think Demon's Souls is the best game of the last years, I am really waiting for Heavy Rain... a game which you can call an "interactive novel".
You assume to much, people don't want your "sympathy", but if your express your opinions in a forum expect to get answers, and not always people will agree with you.
There are all kinds of games and movies today, unfotunatelly the unique ones are harder to find and sometimes they do not belong to mainstream (sometimes they do), so it is understandable when you see someone looking for something that is rare to find, what is annoying is, that doesn't matter what someone enjoy or is looking for, there will always be someone judging and using lables on that person, just like you did... just like the guy calling a casual RP player "carebear" on this website.
You are right about all your points related to Demon's Souls, the article really has some mistakes.
Especially about the "unkillable" knight... after 1-3 /1-4 the red eyes knight is a standart enemy in the game but you are also much more stronger.
I am under the impression that Justin Webb played only the first hours of Demon's Souls, if my impression is right then a couple of his mistakes can be understandable...his article is not exactly about Demon's Souls anyway.
I agree with you about PvP, the multiplayer mode is also very interesting.
What I really missed about Justin Webb comments related to Demon's Souls is the detail about how fair the game is, I know a lot of posters here already said that (myself included), but from the article Demon's Souls sound more like a punishing game than a challenging one, the only time when Demon's Souls will punish the player is when the gamers is not paying attention or making huge mistakes.
It is really hard to find a challenging game that also has perfect balance and fairness... Demon's Souls is one of these exceptions.
The eerie and melancholic atmosphere that Demon's Souls has is also unique.
To tell the truth, I think some details like the melancholic atmosphere, the MMO similarities (the game is saved every second like in a persistent game), the unique and "mystic" way the multiplayers actions take place and the complex but balanced RPG system behind the game are details that are more important in Demon's Souls than the balanced intense challenge. The rewarding challenge is, without a doubt a plus, but Demon's Souls has much more than that to offer.
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I haven't played Demon Souls, and probably won't either. But I did spend months (and yes years too) playing Manic Miner and Jet Set Willy (I did finally complete Manic Miner, but even with infinite lives JSW was just too damned hard).
But it was the teasing ability to go one more step, combined with ultra-simple gameplay (no series of icon bars running all the way round the screen, just left, right and jump) that kept me hooked. In the same way that I loved Tetris (there is no end, seriously you can play that 24 hours a day, 365 days a week and it's still exactly the same but people played it for months on end).
But there's a difference between the teasing challenge of the simple games, and the ridiculously annoying too hard boss fight at the end of a level of a game you've paid an arm and a leg for (JSW was 3 quid compared to the 50/60 today for a new release) that you try to do for 15+ hours, before giving up.
And in an MMORPG you have to allow for every player to have that level of commitment in order for it to succeed as a "hard mode" which is why so few players bothered to PuG in WoW until the dungeon finder tool came along. For every gamer that loves the ridiculous challenge, there are 99 who don't, can't be bothered and want value for their money too.
Why would anyone get involved with an MMORPG if they knew (and it doesn't take long for feedback to get out there) that after 1 week of playing, they wouldn't be any further than when they started.
So many good games (like X^2 for example) disappeared due to their ridiculous learning curves (and x^2 could actually be completed, it was just too much effort for most).
So now, my mobile phone is where I play frustrating but simple games (pick up, play a level, put down, forget for a month or so and then move on). for my megabucks subscriptions to online stuff I really need more to keep my interest and to feel that I have value for money.
I enjoy end game content but minor gear progression isn't it. And sandbox environments like EVE don't really do it for me either. For an MMORPG I probably have a two year limit with all the progression thrown in, and collecting achievements etc. (as per WoW) but when all is said and done, even with the "relative ease" of games like WoW, they're still the same mindless button pushing as Manic Miner, they're just prettier and more rewarding as that button pushing moves on.
Banging your head against the wall for 40 hours a week trying to make miniscule progress? It might have kept me busy as a kid during the summer holidays, now... I need more.
Game design is now viewed as a marketing decision. You used to create a great game and because it was great players wanted to buy it. Now games are created with their demographic in mind and in an effort to make that demographic as large as possible they are all on easy mode.
The marketing concept is that we would prefer to finish the game than valiantly fail and if you can’t succeed in a MMO that means a cancelled sub. But I question the psychology involved; hard games maintain interest and a MMO once completed is one people move on from. MMO’s have substituted difficulty for grind, we used to have grind, but now we have more of it to make up for the fact it is easier.
Do players play a game to complete it or because it challenges them? I think that even if you start gaming just wanting to complete a game you soon search for a challenge. Corporate’s have lost sight of the fact that games reflect life, driving to work is not as interesting as driving a stock car. Completing a 9 to 5 is not as interesting as saving a patient’s life in surgery or arresting a criminal.
Easy MMO’s are a major factor contributing to MMO launch fails and the inability of MMO’s to maintain traction in their player base. But what do MMO’s do when they see the player numbers falling? They make the game easier thinking it will attract more players that way, what they think is a cure is in fact helping to kill them.
Surely it's about having both that enables MMO success? Look at WoW, you can level to 80 solo or grouped, you can PvP or not, you can instance run or not, and you can raid or not. All these things are set at different levels of difficulty, we quit after wiping ten times on Toravon in VoA 25 last week for example, but I know I'll go back and try again. But if I simply couldn't progress in anything? It would be Tetris all over again, and not worth my subscription fee.
Like a lot have said, a challenging game needs to easy to learn and hard to master (Demon's Souls being a good example, Super Mario Bros. 3 being the best example I have played yet), but like most things it's a lot easier said than done.
I think a good starting point would be add challenges (and I don't mean 'achievements') to an otherwise 'easy mode' MMO. For example, when I was playing WoW I used to try to solo elites for the fun it. Another example would be running instances with less than the maximum number of people. If you took activities like that and attached a reward to it, say slightly better drops (like what normally drops +1), you could build a system that catered to both those just looking for some fun, and those looking for a challenge.
An important point though would be to keep players moving forward, even if only a little. By this I mean don't have exp / level / item loss unless it is absolutely the players choice and they are fully aware of the risks (like when invading another players game in Demon's Souls where you risk losing a level).
I did that too,in WoW.:)
I not a Masochrist,or whatever it is( I'm sadistic though) and I enjoy difficult games. Mostly for the bragging rights. Beating a difficult game is like beating a top Chess player in a match. People said a game should be fun. Well, some people get fun from having a challenge,not being beaten with a stick just because the game is impossiple. I'm not a hardcore gamer, but I enjoy games for the challenge that have that brings out your skill. Trauma Center is a another good game. Its fair,actually unrealistic in my opinion, and takes skill. And if your skilled enough,then its "difficulty" isn't as difficult.
I have tried many MMOs over the last few years, and have noticed a paradox: the more often your charaacter dies in the game, the more ALIVE it feels! For example, when I tried out LOTRO, my character felt like a piece of code - I got to level 9 without dieing once! It felt boring. By contrast, when playing WoW, i found myself needing to keep track of my character's armour, weapons, durability, mana... Almost like taking care of it. Now I'm playing Face of Mankind, getting shot dead by gankers every day and loving it! I'll find a way to beat them soon...
In other words, the harder the game is to win, the more interest there is in beating it. Players should feel like they've EARNED their victory. Developers, give us harder games please!
I don't understand this article... why he is moaning about lack of hardcore games on mmo market? Except for some occasional trials, last 7 years of my mmorpg gaming I spend in Lineage 2 (running around red is fun :P), EVE (my shiny ship just went poof) and DF (my shiny armor just went poof). If you are looking for harder mmo you will find one. Playing WoW or WoW clones and whining there nothing out there is just silly.
Lineage 2 is not exactly a challenging game.
Lineage 2 is a time consuming game, encounters and dynamics in Lineage 2 are simple and easier than EQ/EQ2/WoW.
You may say leveling, death penalty and gear are much more time consuming, expensive and harsh than some other MMOs, but the game itself is not "hard". Especially PvE, you need less strategy in Lineage 2 group/raid/dungeon than in FFXI, GW, WoW, EQ, EQ2 etc
Maybe to you, and maybe now, but they were not always so. The "fun" of games for a considerable time was the challenge provided and rising to defeat said challenge. You used to have to actually MAKE CHOICES and TRY to win things. It has been taken to a complete extreme now where games pander to the lowest skill level. Things feel meaningless and frivolous because the choices are gone and your wins are just being handed to you. Demon Souls is a great example, because there is not a damn thing in that game that isn't EARNED with sweat blood and tears. There's no "press start for an achievement!" in Demon Souls. If you have a trophy from that game, you can be damn well sure someone worked their ass off for it. I'm not saying everything should be taken to the same unforgiving extreme, but theres a difference between making things less difficult and the pure dumbing down that is happening to games today. I'm a big boy, I won't cry because I didn't get a medal for losing.
But then again you're bitching about "professional lives" and assuming that having to actually pay attention to a game, and all the bullshit involved with a "professional life" require the same amount of effort, skills, social status, or luck, so I doubt you would understand anyway. Ironically, its not the people who "never had to struggle in life" that want a challenge. It's the people who've had everything handed to them that want to cruise through their video games. People who actually have to earn things are used to doing so, and can live with having to make choices you can't take back. You're the demographic the industry panders to now. Pat yourself on the back. You helped kill gaming.
Lmao.
Erm, cry more?
Right, so because I like to cruise through my video games, I've had everything handed to me. Mmmkay. Hate to burst your (ill)logic bubble, but the word 'earn' implies a reward that is tangible and desirable. I've beaten a lot of video games (yes even hard ones, possibly even before you were born), but I have never 'earned' anything in a video game. Every video game has been beaten by thousands, if not millions of people, in the exact same way, using the exact same tactics, and for the exact same meaningless 'rewards.'
If it floats your boat spending weeks to beat a game on hard, that's terrific, but don't mistake that as some sort of accomplishment that should be bragged about.
It's frivolous, turn-your-brain off entertainment, just like going to a movie. Things earned are things of substance: respect, money, love (though that one isn't always earned).
The fact that people like you turn it into a job and, even more hysterically, ascribe some sort of fake reward system onto a completely meaningless act, is quite a sad commentary.
Keep busting ass and earning your video game rewards though, and I'll keep killing gaming.
Lol.
/salute
/claps
I applaud this statement. I don't know where people get off on telling other people that like a different KIND OF GAME than they do, that they're "killing gaming." What a moronic load of crap. LMAO
There's plenty of room in the world for masochistic gamers, and rest and relaxation gamers, and all kinds of OTHER gamers. And just because not ALL of us like challenges that make us want to rip our hair out from the roots, doesn't mean that either play style is RIGHT or WRONG. They're preferences.
Furthermore....they're preferences in GAMES, for fucksake. We're not talking life altering shit here. Mr. or Mrs. "Give Me Pain and Challenges that Make Me Throw the Game Controller at the Television Set," isn't any more RIGHT than Mr. or Ms. "Tell Me a Great Story and Let Me Enjoy Playing a Fairly Relaxing Part in It." We're ALL paying to play what WE PERSONALLY enjoy.
Oh yes...and NEWS FLASH......
Gaming isn't anywhere CLOSE to dying. It's more popular today that it has EVER been. It's just that NOW....games are made for all different kinds of people, different budgets, different intellects, different preferences, different time schedules, etc. etc. Maybe what the fellow that accused you of "killing gaming" is really upset about, is that it's no longer a private club where only the ubergeeks need apply. My mother can play games now if she wants to, and she's 67 years old. And frankly....I rather LIKE that there's now something out there for EVERYONE. I hate that elitism gamer mentality that assumes that gaming is only for geeks. HORSESHIT.
Gaming....is for EVERYONE.
I guess that just means that those of you that love your super hard challenges...will just have to live in the same world with those of us that DON'T particularly like their games THAT damn hard. Because guess what? We're not going anywhere. And I don't suppose that you all are either. So let's just agree that we REEEEEAALLLY disagree, and move along, eh?
This. Props to girlgeek. To each his own, and let's all remember we're playing games.