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The arrogance at cryptic

RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

Where did they hire these people?

Again today I read yet another thread over on the STO, where Dev Gozer told people there was an error, the so called "new" content patch was not going live today, and if people didn't stop complaining he wasn't going to come to the forums anymore.. Again you have to love the unprofessional attitude and arrogance of staffers..

Anyways.. the main reason for this post is in response to their subscriber survey and why it's there..  Where was Cryptic's concern on what people wanted in the game back in closed beta?  Where was Cryptic's concern of what Open Beta players wanted?  Where was Cryptic's concern about what the general star trek fan base wanted?  It isn't till now when STO is facing mass exodus of 1/2 their player base that they show any interest what so ever..  The arrogance of the STO team was so high, that they most likely didn't give a rat's ass what the public wanted, because they know best.. Now all they are doing is dangling carrots to keep people around till AFTER the 30 days run out and hope they at least sub for another month.  And now trying to show false concern that they are listening.. My gut feeling tells me that the so called borg patch is ready for d/l, but they are dangling it until next week hoping to get fence sitters to sub for a month before releasing it..

If it was up to me I would sh*t can at least HALF of their employees and do my best to put them on a "black ball" for awhile till they learn their lesson..  The other HALF should be motivated now to start operating like a customer service business.. or they too will find pink slips in their box by Father's Day..

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Comments

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    When are MMO gamers going to wise up and realize if you don't treat Devs with some form of respect, you're not going to get much in return?

    It's always about the devs being "evil" never about players being childish and obnoxious. The guy didn't want to put up with complaints he can't do anything about. Which is a concept lost on gamers, the guy you're talking to isn't the guy in charge. He's the stooge sent to send you the message laid out by the guy in charge.

    What other business do you have to deal with this much grief from your customers? Not many I can think of on a level similar to what's required by an MMO developer, if they want to have a public face anyway. Wading through the trenches is a community managers job, if a dev is doing it, it's to strike up a real conversation with their customers, far to often do they learn this is a  mistake.

    Most game forums are about the equivalent of an angry mob waving pitchforks, all because they're to arrogant to realize, their creating the communication problem not developers.

    Give respect and it comes back on you, ignore your part in this scenario, things end up like explained above.

    Who is the truly arrogant one in this scenario? The dev sending a message about a delay, or customers bent out of shape because they think they'd do better?

    This goes for every game/company mind you not just Cryptic.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • MavisPMavisP Member Posts: 181

    Maybe if the "fans" would throw themselves on the floor and kick and scream things would get done to their satisfaction? 

  • malrodmalrod Member Posts: 87
    Originally posted by Malickie


    When are MMO gamers going to wise up and realize if you don't treat Devs with some form of respect, you're not going to get much in return?
    It's always about the devs being "evil" never about players being childish and obnoxious. The guy didn't want to put up with complaints he can't do anything about. Which is a concept lost on gamers, the guy you're talking to isn't the guy in charge. He's the stooge sent to send you the message laid out by the guy in charge.
    What other business do you have to deal with this much grief from your customers? Not many I can think of on a level similar to what's required by an MMO developer, if they want to have a public face anyway. Wading through the trenches is a community managers job, if a dev is doing it, it's to strike up a real conversation with their customers, far to often do they learn this is a  mistake.
    Most game forums are about the equivalent of an angry mob waving pitchforks, all because they're to arrogant to realize, their creating the communication problem not developers.
    Give respect and it comes back on you, ignore your part in this scenario, things end up like explained above.
    Who is the truly arrogant one in this scenario? The dev sending a message about a delay, or customers bent out of shape because they think they'd do better?
     
    amen
    This goes for every game/company mind you not just Cryptic.



     

    live long and prosper
    strength and honor

    if urgent do it yourself
    if you have time-delegate it
    if you have forever-form a committee

  • SecurionSecurion Member Posts: 206
    Originally posted by Malickie


    When are MMO gamers going to wise up and realize if you don't treat Devs with some form of respect, you're not going to get much in return?
    It's always about the devs being "evil" never about players being childish and obnoxious. The guy didn't want to put up with complaints he can't do anything about. Which is a concept lost on gamers, the guy you're talking to isn't the guy in charge. He's the stooge sent to send you the message laid out by the guy in charge.
    What other business do you have to deal with this much grief from your customers? Not many I can think of on a level similar to what's required by an MMO developer, if they want to have a public face anyway. Wading through the trenches is a community managers job, if a dev is doing it, it's to strike up a real conversation with their customers, far to often do they learn this is a  mistake.
    Most game forums are about the equivalent of an angry mob waving pitchforks, all because they're to arrogant to realize, their creating the communication problem not developers.
    Give respect and it comes back on you, ignore your part in this scenario, things end up like explained above.
    Who is the truly arrogant one in this scenario? The dev sending a message about a delay, or customers bent out of shape because they think they'd do better?
    This goes for every game/company mind you not just Cryptic.

     

    U dunno, we dont see BioWare take shit for Mass Effect, or DICE for Battlefield.... etc etc.

    Maybe Cryptic should try to actually finish the games they make before making good people pay hard earned cash for them? Um?

     

  • ktanner3ktanner3 Member UncommonPosts: 4,063
    Originally posted by Malickie


    When are MMO gamers going to wise up and realize if you don't treat Devs with some form of respect, you're not going to get much in return?
    It's always about the devs being "evil" never about players being childish and obnoxious. The guy didn't want to put up with complaints he can't do anything about. Which is a concept lost on gamers, the guy you're talking to isn't the guy in charge. He's the stooge sent to send you the message laid out by the guy in charge.
    What other business do you have to deal with this much grief from your customers? Not many I can think of on a level similar to what's required by an MMO developer, if they want to have a public face anyway. Wading through the trenches is a community managers job, if a dev is doing it, it's to strike up a real conversation with their customers, far to often do they learn this is a  mistake.
    Most game forums are about the equivalent of an angry mob waving pitchforks, all because they're to arrogant to realize, their creating the communication problem not developers.
    Give respect and it comes back on you, ignore your part in this scenario, things end up like explained above.
    Who is the truly arrogant one in this scenario? The dev sending a message about a delay, or customers bent out of shape because they think they'd do better?
    This goes for every game/company mind you not just Cryptic.



     

    QFT. And by the way this is what was actually said...

    "Guys,

    This is what happens in game development, it's the reason why we use "Soon" a bunch. I spent a little extra time making it extra cool, so its running a little late... When the video was made, that was the target date.

    I'm giving you a update now so you know whats going on. If the thread turns into hate and bile, it will definately be the last time I give you a update on stuff I'm working "

    I don't see anything wrong with trying to keep forum conversation to a civilised tone.I also don't see anything wrong with delaying a patch to make sure that the bugs are worked out. If the patch was released with problems, the same people whining over the delay would be whining that it was released with bugs.  

    Currently Playing: World of Warcraft

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Where did they hire these people?
    Again today I read yet another thread over on the STO, where Dev Gozer told people there was an error, the so called "new" content patch was not going live today, and if people didn't stop complaining he wasn't going to come to the forums anymore.. Again you have to love the unprofessional attitude and arrogance of staffers..
    Anyways.. the main reason for this post is in response to their subscriber survey and why it's there..  Where was Cryptic's concern on what people wanted in the game back in closed beta?  Where was Cryptic's concern of what Open Beta players wanted?  Where was Cryptic's concern about what the general star trek fan base wanted?  It isn't till now when STO is facing mass exodus of 1/2 their player base that they show any interest what so ever..  The arrogance of the STO team was so high, that they most likely didn't give a rat's ass what the public wanted, because they know best.. Now all they are doing is dangling carrots to keep people around till AFTER the 30 days run out and hope they at least sub for another month.  And now trying to show false concern that they are listening.. My gut feeling tells me that the so called borg patch is ready for d/l, but they are dangling it until next week hoping to get fence sitters to sub for a month before releasing it..
    If it was up to me I would sh*t can at least HALF of their employees and do my best to put them on a "black ball" for awhile till they learn their lesson..  The other HALF should be motivated now to start operating like a customer service business.. or they too will find pink slips in their box by Father's Day..

    No link of source again?

    This is getting tiring...

  • ktanner3ktanner3 Member UncommonPosts: 4,063
    Originally posted by Gdemami


     

    Originally posted by Rydeson

    Where did they hire these people?

    Again today I read yet another thread over on the STO, where Dev Gozer told people there was an error, the so called "new" content patch was not going live today, and if people didn't stop complaining he wasn't going to come to the forums anymore.. Again you have to love the unprofessional attitude and arrogance of staffers..

    Anyways.. the main reason for this post is in response to their subscriber survey and why it's there..  Where was Cryptic's concern on what people wanted in the game back in closed beta?  Where was Cryptic's concern of what Open Beta players wanted?  Where was Cryptic's concern about what the general star trek fan base wanted?  It isn't till now when STO is facing mass exodus of 1/2 their player base that they show any interest what so ever..  The arrogance of the STO team was so high, that they most likely didn't give a rat's ass what the public wanted, because they know best.. Now all they are doing is dangling carrots to keep people around till AFTER the 30 days run out and hope they at least sub for another month.  And now trying to show false concern that they are listening.. My gut feeling tells me that the so called borg patch is ready for d/l, but they are dangling it until next week hoping to get fence sitters to sub for a month before releasing it..

    If it was up to me I would sh*t can at least HALF of their employees and do my best to put them on a "black ball" for awhile till they learn their lesson..  The other HALF should be motivated now to start operating like a customer service business.. or they too will find pink slips in their box by Father's Day..

     

    No link of source again?

    This is getting tiring...

    I linked it just above you, but here it is...

     

    http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=2205591&postcount=40

     

    Currently Playing: World of Warcraft

  • YamotaYamota Member UncommonPosts: 6,593
    Originally posted by Malickie


    When are MMO gamers going to wise up and realize if you don't treat Devs with some form of respect, you're not going to get much in return?
    It's always about the devs being "evil" never about players being childish and obnoxious. The guy didn't want to put up with complaints he can't do anything about. Which is a concept lost on gamers, the guy you're talking to isn't the guy in charge. He's the stooge sent to send you the message laid out by the guy in charge.
    What other business do you have to deal with this much grief from your customers? Not many I can think of on a level similar to what's required by an MMO developer, if they want to have a public face anyway. Wading through the trenches is a community managers job, if a dev is doing it, it's to strike up a real conversation with their customers, far to often do they learn this is a  mistake.
    Most game forums are about the equivalent of an angry mob waving pitchforks, all because they're to arrogant to realize, their creating the communication problem not developers.
    Give respect and it comes back on you, ignore your part in this scenario, things end up like explained above.
    Who is the truly arrogant one in this scenario? The dev sending a message about a delay, or customers bent out of shape because they think they'd do better?
    This goes for every game/company mind you not just Cryptic.

    One important aspect you seem to have overlooked. Customers pay money, devs receive money. Dev threat customer like crap, customer quit game and no longer give money to dev. Customer scream at dev, (foolish) dev tell customer to stfu, customer quit game and no longer give money to dev.

    Foolish to think that money does not matter, it does.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by ktanner3

    I linked it just above you, but here it is...
     
    http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=2205591&postcount=40
     

    When I was replying your post not there yet, we post about same time.

    However, it is up to OP to provide a link otherwise it is nothing more than dumb hate post no. 273801 by default.

  • Shelby13Shelby13 Member Posts: 79

    STO is losing half their players...really.. certainly doesn't look like that to me when I log into the game.  Let me check.. nope.. players are still on... imagine that?

    This game / team is getting a whole lot of grief for not much more reason than "You didn't blow my mind and meet all of my expectations at launch... SHAME ON YOU!"

    What a cardinal sin... not being perfect at launch, not having every feature expected, not pushing out a content update that is showing some flaws...  how dare you.

    Players are more than willing to roast the messanger alive... its fair game... you post to the players they will nail you to a cross the first second they can find a few nails and a tree.. just to make you an 'example'.   I don't blame some CM's for putting their foot down and letting players know they are crossing the line.  its a give and take... arrogance works both ways.

    STO is fun to play for a lot of people... I'm enjoying it for what it IS... not getting worked up over what it isn't yet. I think some player are just angry that thier dooms-day prediction(s) about this game are not comming true.   Cryptic is making money.. Atari is making money... players are sticking around and levelling up... and that is absolutely frustrating for some people.

    Sure, some players rushed to the 'end game' as fast as their mouse-button would allow... but thats their problem.  Power-grinder-games will burn out in any MMO, some sooner or later. 

    If Cryptic STOPs pushing out content on a permanent basis... or slows it down to nothing.. or only offers good quality content via items shops... then ya... dig out your pichforks and torches and go to town.

    Till then, play it or don't.  Nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head.

    SWG/STO/(SWTOR)

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Securion


     
    U dunno, we dont see BioWare take shit for Mass Effect, or DICE for Battlefield.... etc etc.
    Maybe Cryptic should try to actually finish the games they make before making good people pay hard earned cash for them? Um?
     

    Are you serious? Battlefield devs get no grief? Never been around when a new hack is discovered have you?

    As for bioware, they had to make a specific thread on this very forum in order to keep SWTOR hate related to MMO design, in a designated area away from normal discussion. Their game isn't even out yet or in testing, LOL.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • BademBadem Member Posts: 830

    in regards to the 'Dev's gioving us what we ask for'

     

    through out CB and OB we asked for

    Bridges : Got them

    Klingons: we got them

    UI changed: we got them

    Autofire : we got them

    Removal of certain 'Griefing abilites' : changed to combat cast only abilities

    Scanner for maps objectives : We got them

     

    We got lots of the stuff we asked for

     

  • SebaliSebali Member UncommonPosts: 395
    Originally posted by Malickie


    When are MMO gamers going to wise up and realize if you don't treat Devs with some form of respect, you're not going to get much in return?
    It's always about the devs being "evil" never about players being childish and obnoxious. The guy didn't want to put up with complaints he can't do anything about. Which is a concept lost on gamers, the guy you're talking to isn't the guy in charge. He's the stooge sent to send you the message laid out by the guy in charge.
    What other business do you have to deal with this much grief from your customers? Not many I can think of on a level similar to what's required by an MMO developer, if they want to have a public face anyway. Wading through the trenches is a community managers job, if a dev is doing it, it's to strike up a real conversation with their customers, far to often do they learn this is a  mistake.
    Most game forums are about the equivalent of an angry mob waving pitchforks, all because they're to arrogant to realize, their creating the communication problem not developers.
    Give respect and it comes back on you, ignore your part in this scenario, things end up like explained above.
    Who is the truly arrogant one in this scenario? The dev sending a message about a delay, or customers bent out of shape because they think they'd do better?
    This goes for every game/company mind you not just Cryptic.

    best post i;ve ever seen on this site

     

    kudos

  • Vealcutlet10Vealcutlet10 Member Posts: 10

    Geeze, I don't know why everyone is getting so worked up about this.

    The general fact is, that for anyone who is a gamer, especially of the MMO variety, online games have been less and less finished upon release.

    STO is no exception. Cryptic had released Champions Online right before STO. That was an unfinished game aswell. So theres no surprise here that the game was released with no nuts and bolts to hold it together.

    I was into Star Trek Online for the last 4-5 years. I will say I'm a huge fan of it and thought this would resurrect my love for MMO's. Unfortuanetly the truth of the matter is that the game was rushed to release. I only participated in the Beta, and it was clear that the game didn't have anything close to a "wow" factor (not to be confused with World of Warcraft, i just mean impressive). To compound it all, the game is basically a skin of Champion Online in every unsettling fassion.

    The fact is Cryptic believes people will play this game because they love star trek....not necessarily there own product. They may be looking at Star Wars Galaxies, thinking that fanboys will keep the game afloat even after disasterous launches and patches. The problem with that assumption is that Star Wars Galaxies was actually playable for more then 2 weeks.

    I'll probably never buy another game developed by Cryptic, if your going to promise the world, you better deliver. People will be expecting a game that "WOWS" them.

  • SebaliSebali Member UncommonPosts: 395
    Originally posted by Yamota



    One important aspect you seem to have overlooked. Customers pay money, devs receive money. customer scream at dev Dev threat customer like crap, customer quit game and no longer give money to dev.


    , (foolish) dev tell customer to stfu, customer quit game and no longer give money to dev.

    Foolish to think that money does not matter, it does.

    kinda like going to a resturaunt and complaining about then way the chef makes a certain dish.

     

    thats how he made it. if you dont like it you dont have to eat it. nobody is forcing you to go to his resturaunt.

    but you can sure as shit bet if you started screaming at the chef, he would kick your ass right out

  • thinktank001thinktank001 Member UncommonPosts: 2,144

    I don't know if I would call the dev's post arrogance, but it still not the correct way to handle customers.  It sounds like they want to push away their loyal fans too.

  • MyPreciousssMyPreciousss Member Posts: 427
    Originally posted by MavisP


    Maybe if the "fans" would throw themselves on the floor and kick and scream things would get done to their satisfaction? 

     

    So true, I lolled.

  • Vealcutlet10Vealcutlet10 Member Posts: 10

    I just wanted to add something to be above post.

    I think the reason so many people dump on the dev's is because there the easiest ones to dump on. I mean, what is a dev going to report to the community about when they've released a game thats unfinished? Clearly there's going to be some bad reports, any anyone who plays the game can see that it's not exactly in 100% working order. Clearly they'd have problem with patches, this should be expected in a game like this.

  • DomenicusDomenicus Member UncommonPosts: 290
    Originally posted by Malickie


    When are MMO gamers going to wise up and realize if you don't treat Devs with some form of respect, you're not going to get much in return?
    It's always about the devs being "evil" never about players being childish and obnoxious. The guy didn't want to put up with complaints he can't do anything about. Which is a concept lost on gamers, the guy you're talking to isn't the guy in charge. He's the stooge sent to send you the message laid out by the guy in charge.
    What other business do you have to deal with this much grief from your customers? Not many I can think of on a level similar to what's required by an MMO developer, if they want to have a public face anyway. Wading through the trenches is a community managers job, if a dev is doing it, it's to strike up a real conversation with their customers, far to often do they learn this is a  mistake.
    Most game forums are about the equivalent of an angry mob waving pitchforks, all because they're to arrogant to realize, their creating the communication problem not developers.
    Give respect and it comes back on you, ignore your part in this scenario, things end up like explained above.
    Who is the truly arrogant one in this scenario? The dev sending a message about a delay, or customers bent out of shape because they think they'd do better?
    This goes for every game/company mind you not just Cryptic.



     

    When the devs starts to pay the players to play their game instead the other way around... This is called the ´risk of entrepeneur´, you take the risk of your business (which he takes, resuming it all, to gain money from the consumer). The one who buys, who consumes yell and, ultimatelly, stops consuming... Some guys act as it is a favor of the devs to receive our hard earning money and give us something of low quality in exchange. The devs should use the yelling to improve their business, not taking it personally... It is personal to ones who buy, but it shouldnt be to the ones who sell it.

  • ktanner3ktanner3 Member UncommonPosts: 4,063
    Originally posted by Shelby13


    STO is losing half their players...really.. certainly doesn't look like that to me when I log into the game.  Let me check.. nope.. players are still on... imagine that?
    This game / team is getting a whole lot of grief for not much more reason than "You didn't blow my mind and meet all of my expectations at launch... SHAME ON YOU!"
    What a cardinal sin... not being perfect at launch, not having every feature expected, not pushing out a content update that is showing some flaws...  how dare you.
    Players are more than willing to roast the messanger alive... its fair game... you post to the players they will nail you to a cross the first second they can find a few nails and a tree.. just to make you an 'example'.   I don't blame some CM's for putting their foot down and letting players know they are crossing the line.  its a give and take... arrogance works both ways.
    STO is fun to play for a lot of people... I'm enjoying it for what it IS... not getting worked up over what it isn't yet. I think some player are just angry that thier dooms-day prediction(s) about this game are not comming true.   Cryptic is making money.. Atari is making money... players are sticking around and levelling up... and that is absolutely frustrating for some people.
    Sure, some players rushed to the 'end game' as fast as their mouse-button would allow... but thats their problem.  Power-grinder-games will burn out in any MMO, some sooner or later. 
    If Cryptic STOPs pushing out content on a permanent basis... or slows it down to nothing.. or only offers good quality content via items shops... then ya... dig out your pichforks and torches and go to town.
    Till then, play it or don't.  Nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head.



     

    Well said. I'm enjoying myself, but I think there needs to be things added. I can wait and see if those improvments come. If they come great.If they don't come then I'll stop playing. I certainly won't be hanging around the forums trashing the game.

    I do think the fact that players are loving it bothers some people. I certainly don't see this "players are leaving in droves" to have any basis in fact. it's not enjoyed here but we all new that long before BETA . There are many loving it on the official boards as well as TRek sites. Every time I log on there are lots of people there. There are lots of people in every instance I warp into. There are different people in every area I go to. And I'm only a Commander. I'm sure it's much more heavy at the higher levels since a lot of players are more into grinding than I am. I like to read everything. I don't just hit the green text, I like to read the backstory of everyone I meet. It makes the missions longer, but I don't care. I want to enjoy the journey. If people rushed to endgame, then that is their choice, but I'm certainly not going to take their advice on what constitutes a "fun" game.

    And as far as gaming reviews go, do people really think that those who enjoy it really care what someone from a magazine thinks? The game is already out and people already have access to it. The game will succees or fail based on that alone.

    Currently Playing: World of Warcraft

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by Sebalikinda like going to a resturaunt and complaining about then way the chef makes a certain dish.
     
    thats how he made it. if you dont like it you dont have to eat it. nobody is forcing you to go to his resturaunt.
    but you can sure as shit bet if you started screaming at the chef, he would kick your ass right out

    That's how all arguments start. You start to dispute who was offended first and who is right and end up screaming and kicking out each other. At the end, you both will look like fools.


    It is up to you whether you want to bend down onto a level of the person screaming at you or you handle the situation with manner and as professional.

  • buegurbuegur Member UncommonPosts: 457

    the Dev probably been reading this sites forum entries and the negativity projected made his head explode LOL!  Seriously i don't have a problem with a delay to make something better, whats the big deal?  Many critics here wanted STO delayed for just that purpose.  So what if that Dev doesn't post what he is working on in the future as long as he is working on improving the game?  If people get excited because somthing is delayed than maybe that is the best thing to do.

  • Esther-ChanEsther-Chan Member Posts: 288

    *dons Tin-foil hat* Can never be too safe. Eyes and ears everywhere. Now that we can communicate safely, allow me to say this. You bring up a lot of interesting points. It does seem like they're purposefully dragging the patch out so people are inclined to stay for another month to see if the game is better after Borgs, but the way I see it is that all the content that is going into the game is readily available to the public in such a manner that anyone can see if it's worth staying or not. That being said, it is my opinion that anyone who is not already a fan of the game would already be gone by now, or already canceled their subscription as they would already know if the game was going to "Turn around" or not. One would truly have to be ignorant to not have made up their mind by now, especially since all the patch notes are there.

  • TookyGTookyG Warhammer Online CorrespondentMember UncommonPosts: 1,115
    Originally posted by Shelby13


    STO is losing half their players...really.. certainly doesn't look like that to me when I log into the game.  Let me check.. nope.. players are still on... imagine that?

     

    Have you been counting instances?  That's the only way you would know seeing as instances cap out at 50 or so.

    Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.

  • Shelby13Shelby13 Member Posts: 79

    Don't get me wrong.. STO easily falls short of a full-feature MMO.

    Its MMO 'lite' but my standards.   Not enough social features (yet) ... but it has some potential.

    Right now, the game is generating revenue that will hopefully lead to more 'investment' in the system via expansions and I hope they stay clear of the 'item shop upgrade' model.

    Do it smart STO and players will stick through the nay-sayers and doomsday pridictions and mediocre reviews.

    We've seen all this before.. a lof of (less vocal) players don't give a rip about forums or reviews.. they load it up and try it and either stay or leave.   From what I see.. players are sticking around for now.

    The 'new game rush' will be over soon, and when the dust settles, whoever remains will stay because they like it, and everyone else will go play something else.

    Ranting and raving... makes zero difference.. but I suppose its therapudic to get it off your chest.  I know I sometimes do.

     

     

    SWG/STO/(SWTOR)

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