Well.... This is the tricky thing about MMOs is if they are going to have all out PvP then they need to have balance. Yeah.... Guards should come to Level 1 player rescue although lkely they would be too late if he is that far outclassed but as I said. If the player is high enough then yeah he can slaughter the guards. For example... If he slew the newb in a dirt farm village then the guards are likely not gonna be much of a fight or even may flee but if he slew the newb in say.... the capitol city. Yeah, that PvPer would likely be screwed. Most good MMORPGs should have a reputation and faction system in place. Certain cities or factions might not allow you in because of your actions. Thats just common sense. You don't allow Jack the Ripper into the Royal Court Room. Course.... Killing newbs out in the wild should never effect faction or reputation. Why? Heh, cause there is no one to see it.
I agree. EVE has an excellent PvP system. No where is safe although EVE now and then suffers the occasional exploit. You can try to kill someone anytime and anywhere heh but you'd be stupid to try in some places. Course.... the alts with the suicide gankers aren't exactly realistic but encountering those are uncommon if you have a fair idea what your doin.
I maintain my position that EVE has the best of both worlds. Concord ftw.
Pfft, if you wanted to, you could still attack people in hi-sec. You'd get your butt blasted to a million pieces, but if you're stupid (or angry) enough to try, more power to you. Thus, the system is not restricted and the OP must agree that EVE is not carebear.
That's funny, though, because I still see players who like playing in Empire space called carebears. /shrug
Real PVPers want games about PVP, where skilled play yields victory.
Personally I find that Open PVP is as carebear as anything, with as many non-skill elements as it has (gear, advancement, and team size, to name the big ones.) All these factors less lesser-skilled players win. It's casual PVP. Which makes sense business-wise (because only a minority of players are skilled enough to win most of their games) but isn't particularly enjoyable to me.
Yeah unrestricted PvP is "as carebear as anything". Because look at all the rules placed on unrestricted PvP? Oh yeah there are none.
Non skill elements? Playing an MMORPG and complaining about that? All MMORPGs are unbalanced because of progression systems, gear, class, specializations, etc. and you are gonna complain about non skill elements?
Well, non skill elements are perfectly fine. MMORPGs are based on advancement and effort and not like a cheap RTS game where you start out with the same stuff as everyone else no matter what. People who talk about non skill in an MMORPG don't make any sense.
Maybe you should complain about PVE requiring non skill elements too. After all, a bunch of level 1 newbies can't raid Molten Core, right?
The hypocrisy, lol
Lesser skill players with better gear. I'm sure that happens a lot. Because the low skilled players are the ones doing the games most difficult content. Surely the person with horrible gear is going to be a high skill player more often than not. What kind of reasoning is that, really?
Unrestricted PvP, nothing is more hardcore than that. No rules and pure chaos. Anything else is carebear. GM interference is carebear too.
You're really in your own little world, aren't you?
It's fair to say open PVP is "hardcore", but it's ridiculous to say "nothing is more hardcore than that". Because open PVP systems have a lot of very casual elements (all the non-skill factors which allow less-skilled players to win.)
Really in nearly every zerg PVP fight you're going to have some players on that zerg team who would straight-up lose in fair fights with the people they're zerging. The same goes for gear although this is less frequently a cause for false wins for the reasons you point out (although it still happens because bad players can simply invest plenty of time into the game to get the good gear.) Advancement can be more or less impactful depending on the game (Darkfall is a big example of this. I lost a number of fights against players who actually landed less hits on me than I landed on them, but due to DF having lots of verticality to its progression I lost the fight.)
Sure MMORPGs are "based on advancement". This doesn't change the fact that advancement is a casual concept: put in time, stuff gets easier. It removed the concept of hard skill-checks. Is that boss too hard? Level a bit more, get a new sword, now he's easy. It's a casual game mechanic. Great for PVE. Terrible for PVP.
Yes, I am
Nothing is more hardcore than unrestricted/no rules PvP. How is open world PvP casual again? You can be exping in a low level zone and a bunch of level 60s show up and kill everyone. I guess it is casual to get PKed by high levels.
It's funny you bring up how "less skilled players can win". Tell me, who is likely going to have more skill. A level 1 in vendor gear or a level 60 who has practically beaten the game?
In any case, this argument is silly. The low level should level up if he doesn't want to get killed by a level 60. It sounds like you want an MMORPG that has no ability for players to advance.. because you want a level 1 to be able to take out a level 60. I guess you can make an MMORPG where all of your items don't have any stats, because you don't want there to be any "gear advantages", which are an "unfair non skill element"
People here who say that investing time and effort into your character shouldn't give any rewards.. what kind of statement is that? I guess you want an MMORPG without any way to advance, because everyone starts out with the same stuff, and no one can be different.
You just want to eliminate all of the differences between players. What's next, going to give my character the same face as yours because my character face gives me an unfair advantage?
And so what if they would lose straight up 1 on 1 fights. War is war. Sure, sometimes a bad player will hide behindo numbers, but if they have enough bad players in the pack, sometimes a coordinated group f low levels can take them out too.
Group of bad players PK low levels? Get a group of good players to come in and take them out, that is the solution. Sometimes good players will PK low levels too, so I don't know why you act that it's always low skilled players who are in groups
It's funny you bring up how "less skilled players can win". Tell me, who is likely going to have more skill. A level 1 in vendor gear or a level 60 who has practically beaten the game?
Amazing. Did you really just typed that or am I seeing things?
So, it takes skill to level up now? What fucking amazing mmos have you been playing, cause I want some. And here I was thinking leveling was just a matter of time.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
It's funny you bring up how "less skilled players can win". Tell me, who is likely going to have more skill. A level 1 in vendor gear or a level 60 who has practically beaten the game?
Amazing. Did you really just typed that or am I seeing things?
So, it takes skill to level up now? What fucking amazing mmos have you been playing, cause I want some.
Yeah, a huge shocker. A person who invests time in a game is likely to be better at the game than a level 1.
I know this isn't true for all MMORPGs, especially WoW. But in most MMORPGs level 1's and 60's are generally at different skill levels
You know in older MMORPGs, you actually could die if you went afk for more than 10 seconds. Nowadays, dying while AFK is too inconvenient for players, so the PVE is too easy. PVE nowadays is just annoying, but it isn't stuff that can do damage.
It's funny you bring up how "less skilled players can win". Tell me, who is likely going to have more skill. A level 1 in vendor gear or a level 60 who has practically beaten the game?
Amazing. Did you really just typed that or am I seeing things?
So, it takes skill to level up now? What fucking amazing mmos have you been playing, cause I want some.
Yeah, a huge shocker. A person who invests time in a game is likely to be better at the game than a level 1.
I know this isn't true for all MMORPGs, especially WoW. But in most MMORPGs level 1's and 60's are generally at different skill levels
No, sorry. You said skill, not time invested, dont try to double back.
And a level 1 and a level 60 are not at different skill levels, they are in different places in a timeline. Give time to the level 1 and he'll be 60. Just like the level 60 guy.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
It's funny you bring up how "less skilled players can win". Tell me, who is likely going to have more skill. A level 1 in vendor gear or a level 60 who has practically beaten the game?
Amazing. Did you really just typed that or am I seeing things?
So, it takes skill to level up now? What fucking amazing mmos have you been playing, cause I want some.
Yeah, a huge shocker. A person who invests time in a game is likely to be better at the game than a level 1.
I know this isn't true for all MMORPGs, especially WoW. But in most MMORPGs level 1's and 60's are generally at different skill levels
No, sorry. You said skill, not time invested, dont try to double back.
And a level 1 and a level 60 are not at different skill levels, they are in different places in a timeline. Give time to the level 1 and he'll be 60. Just like the level 60 guy.
Someone who has no experience with something will not be as skilled as someone with experience.
With enough experience, he might be at the same skill level. But a new player isn't going to be as skilled as a veteran, no matter how good they are at other games. It's a difference in knowledge they can't overcome in a millenia of struggle.
I have PvPed. Whether the PvP I participated in "counts" I guess is subject to opinion.
I PvPed in original SWG fairly often.
I used to play Counterstrike quite a lot, as well as 4-5 similar games.
I did every kind of PvP in WoW, from the open world conflicts at launch, to battlegrounds, arenas, Wintergrasp, etc. I think when I retired from WoW about 8 months ago I had over 18,000 kills, for what that's worth.
I'm not saying that I am a good PvPer. I would say I am pretty average at best. But the point is, I have tried it. I have been killed lots and lots, but I kept doing it and gave it a fair chance to be entertaining.
And after doing it, I decided I don't like it. /shrug That doesn't mean PvP is bad. It just bores me.
That's because I don't play mmos to fight other people. I'm not looking for Counterstrike - Elf Batallion. I'm there for the PvE, and that's it.
What does become tiresome is an attitude that some PvPers (not all, and this is not directed at the OP) adopt. It's this silly, cartoon e-tough trash talk, as if PvP is something that proves your manhood. Fighting with cartoon characters is hardly a demonstration of masculinity, or a justification for disparaging other people's form of fun.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Actually, a good PvP game would dispense of levels altogether. How good you are at PvP would be situational. What skills did you invest in, what weapons are you using, where and how are you trying to slay your player. I think players should be powerful based off experience, skills invested in, real life skill, and equipment. I can see a person taking on a stronger foe who is in better equipment and winning if he attacks smarter. ie You can have some major melee whomping skills and Dragon Armor of the Gods but that aint gonna help you forever from the jerk shooting at you with the bow on the cliff. Unfortunately, most MMOs these days like Champions and others are a race to see who can get to level 50 the fastest in the shortest amount of time.
I feel you should take pride in your character. Quest for rare armor or craft it. Pick a style of PvP. Are you a Ninja? A Black Knight? Jumping out of the shadows and hacking with a sword should not be effective all the time regardless of level. True PvP should involve skill. Its..... an art..... Its beautiful.
Heh, I'm not sure there are any MMOs out there like that tho.
It's funny you bring up how "less skilled players can win". Tell me, who is likely going to have more skill. A level 1 in vendor gear or a level 60 who has practically beaten the game?
Amazing. Did you really just typed that or am I seeing things?
So, it takes skill to level up now? What fucking amazing mmos have you been playing, cause I want some.
Yeah, a huge shocker. A person who invests time in a game is likely to be better at the game than a level 1.
I know this isn't true for all MMORPGs, especially WoW. But in most MMORPGs level 1's and 60's are generally at different skill levels
No, sorry. You said skill, not time invested, dont try to double back.
And a level 1 and a level 60 are not at different skill levels, they are in different places in a timeline. Give time to the level 1 and he'll be 60. Just like the level 60 guy.
Someone who has no experience with something will not be as skilled as someone with experience.
With enough experience, he might be at the same skill level. But a new player isn't going to be as skilled as a veteran, no matter how good they are at other games. It's a difference in knowledge they can't overcome in a millenia of struggle.
Im sorry if you think that real pvp is a bunch of 60s hammering down on lvl 1 newbies. Yeah a fucking black belt will always beat someone who just started learning kung fu.
Black belt vs black belt, thats the only true pvp. But give a fair and challenging fight to "hardcore pvp'ers" and they bail.
Do you know why organized sports have rules and regulations? I'll give you a hint. They are trying to figure out who is the best at them.
[Mod Edit]
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
A derogatory term used by PvP'ers who think the way THEY like to PvP is the only "real" way, to describe anyone (whether another PvP'er or a PvE'er) that doesn't like the same style of game play that they do.
Similar to the term "lost" used by born agains to describe anyone that doesn't believe the same way they do, it is meant to display the "born again's" superiority. Of course they will say it with ohhhhh so much mustered up fake compassion. /rolls eyes
Not to be confused with the cuddly cute teddy bears from the cartoon, no matter HOW MUCH certain PvP'ers argue that it's a term of endearment or a simple description of someone who doesn't PvP. Bullshit.
It's meant to set the person throwing about the "carebear" word, in a place of superiority over the "carebears," because they are so "hardcore" and the "carebears" are so beneath them. This is why the term is a teddy bear, a child's toy, a fluffy piece of insubstantial security blanket for babies, essentially.
There has been some confusion here about the exact meaning of the term carebear, so I will clarify it.
A carebear is someone who is anti pure PvP.
A PvE'r can be a carebear, and a PvPer can be a carebear.
People who are anti pure PvP. This means that they dont want PvP that has no restrictions.
For instance, they think that a level 1 in their town should be protected from a level 60.
They think it should be impossible for PvP to occur when the numbers are not even. God forbid someone ever 2v1'd someone.
Most likely, these carebears are the product of playing a PvP server and getting PKed once. Instead of accepting their loss and moving on, they decided to pack up shop and head to a carebear server. Most normal PvP players accept a loss regardless of the disadvantages etc. or any other excuses. But the carebears, no. They think there should be special rules protecting everyone from other people.
And if you think this is a joke I'm not joking. PvP nowadays is so far from real PvP it is sickening. All those hardcore GM's and Gladiators from WoW would normally be on the PvE servers in EQ because the PvP servers were the penal colonies. You have to be really hardened to play there.
[Mod Edit]
There are no such things as carebears. That is what we call a "Big Lie". By trying to put a huge label on everyone but your particular special interest group, you attempt to confuse the perception of normality to make it seem as if your unlabeled group is normal, and the big labeled group comprised of everyone else is somehow not normal.
The truth is there are 4 general types of game players as defined by their predominant Bartle profile characteristic. 3 of those kinds of players (Achiever, Socializer, and Explorer) can coexist together without screwing up each other's game, and in fact collaborate extremely well to make games more popular and fun to play. The 4th and by far the least numerous kind (Killer) cannot coexist with any of the others (or even exist in game) without messing up someone else's game time for their selfish, screwed-up gratification.
This is why "pure PvP" games are fail compared to games which serve the vast majority of the market, and why MMO companies need to stop caring about PvPers at all. They are just a tiny special interest group of the MMO market, and they can always get their particular fix from FPS games anyways.
So none of the rest of us MMO players really need them in our collaborative-play MMO games, and in fact, they don't even need us to get their Killer action on in the far more exciting venue of FPS games. Beats me why they even keep with MMOs when they've got a better game for their wants.
It's funny you bring up how "less skilled players can win". Tell me, who is likely going to have more skill. A level 1 in vendor gear or a level 60 who has practically beaten the game?
Amazing. Did you really just typed that or am I seeing things?
So, it takes skill to level up now? What fucking amazing mmos have you been playing, cause I want some.
Yeah, a huge shocker. A person who invests time in a game is likely to be better at the game than a level 1.
I know this isn't true for all MMORPGs, especially WoW. But in most MMORPGs level 1's and 60's are generally at different skill levels
No, sorry. You said skill, not time invested, dont try to double back.
And a level 1 and a level 60 are not at different skill levels, they are in different places in a timeline. Give time to the level 1 and he'll be 60. Just like the level 60 guy.
Someone who has no experience with something will not be as skilled as someone with experience.
With enough experience, he might be at the same skill level. But a new player isn't going to be as skilled as a veteran, no matter how good they are at other games. It's a difference in knowledge they can't overcome in a millenia of struggle.
Im sorry if you think that real pvp is a bunch of 60s hammering down on lvl 1 newbies. Yeah a fucking black belt will always beat someone who just started learning kung fu.
Black belt vs black belt, thats the only true pvp. But give a fair and challenging fight to "hardcore pvp'ers" and they bail.
Do you know why organized sports have rules and regulations? I'll give you a hint. They are trying to figure out who is the best at them.
[Mod Edit]
I don't beat up kids, you know.
Some people just want a world that is dangerous again. Do I want to go after level 1s? No... unless I got really bored and wanted to bait higher level players into PvP.. then I might go take over a newbie leveling zone.
But really, those low levels who get PKed, at least they have the ability to get PKed by a level 60. You know how valuable that is? I know if I played an MMORPG and I was level 1, and leveling in a newb area, and a level 60 showed up and PKed me.. I would remember that definitely
They are lucky to get PKed by a level 60. Protecting them with rules would just hurt their experience.
Also, while a black belt might beat a beginner, they probably wouldn't beat 2-3 beginners at the same time. Who said a bunch of low levels shouldn't be able to gang up on a high level? With 10-20 low levels you should have a chance to take out a level 60. That way they aren't totally defenseless..
There has been some confusion here about the exact meaning of the term carebear, so I will clarify it.
A carebear is someone who is anti pure PvP.
A PvE'r can be a carebear, and a PvPer can be a carebear.
People who are anti pure PvP. This means that they dont want PvP that has no restrictions.
For instance, they think that a level 1 in their town should be protected from a level 60.
They think it should be impossible for PvP to occur when the numbers are not even. God forbid someone ever 2v1'd someone.
Most likely, these carebears are the product of playing a PvP server and getting PKed once. Instead of accepting their loss and moving on, they decided to pack up shop and head to a carebear server. Most normal PvP players accept a loss regardless of the disadvantages etc. or any other excuses. But the carebears, no. They think there should be special rules protecting everyone from other people.
And if you think this is a joke I'm not joking. PvP nowadays is so far from real PvP it is sickening. All those hardcore GM's and Gladiators from WoW would normally be on the PvE servers in EQ because the PvP servers were the penal colonies. You have to be really hardened to play there.
[Mod Edit]
There are no such things as carebears. That is what we call a "Big Lie". By trying to put a huge label on everyone but your particular special interest group, you attempt to confuse the perception of normality to make it seem as if your unlabeled group is normal, and the big labeled group comprised of everyone else is somehow not normal.
The truth is there are 4 general types of game players as defined by their predominant Bartle profile characteristic. 3 of those kinds of players (Achiever, Socializer, and Explorer) can coexist together without screwing up each other's game, and in fact collaborate extremely well to make games more popular and fun to play. The 4th and by far the least numerous kind (Killer) cannot coexist with any of the others (or even exist in game) without messing up someone else's game time for their selfish, screwed-up gratification.
This is why "pure PvP" games are fail compared to games which serve the vast majority of the market, and why MMO companies need to stop caring about PvPers at all. They are just a tiny special interest group of the MMO market, and they can always get their particular fix from FPS games anyways.
So none of the rest of us MMO players really need them in our collaborative-play MMO games, and in fact, they don't even need us to get their Killer action on in the far more exciting venue of FPS games. Beats me why they even keep with MMOs when they've got a better game for their wants.
Oh, 4 general types of game players. Can I be all 4?
Instead of calling them killers, why not call them "People who want their MMORPG to have some more risk and be challenging"
You whine about labels then tell me there are 4 labels, lol
Also, while a black belt might beat a beginner, they probably wouldn't beat 2-3 beginners at the same time. Who said a bunch of low levels shouldn't be able to gang up on a high level? With 10-20 low levels you should have a chance to take out a level 60. That way they aren't totally defenseless..
Yeah. Unless the lvl 60 has a AOE. then all the little maggots are fucked.
And thats if the lvl 1s are able to even hit the lvl 60. In most games all they would do would be 'Resists' and 'dodges'.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
OmaliMMO Business CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,177
In World of Warcraft you get level ?? players camping level 15 zones where they can one-shot all the nubs they want because those carebears should just deal with it or gtfo.
In Runescape you used to have clans of people pile on to one tile, so only one person is visible on the mini-map, and some unsuspecting n00b would walk right into a 20-on-1 encounter. Then again, if that player didn't want hardcore pvp, he should've just walked his noob ass out of the wildy.
In Darkfall you get players on mounts with the best armor in the game heading towards newbie zones to gank some naked nubs gathering goblin teeth for the starting quest, so they can afford to actually get a starting sword/mace or some cloth armor. What a bunch of newbs, they don't even have good armor.
In Mortal Online you get players abusing lag spikes to steal stuff from you and get away before you've even recovered from the lag. Your fault for being in a bank with your stuff.
In Warhammer Online, which is less of a problem now that the servers are down to about 10, you're better of rolling on the winning side, because otherwise your open RvR groups are going to be steamrolled by sheer numbers.
Aion does a better job of controlling faction population balance, but falls into the same trap WoW does: Get ready to have your ass handed to you by players who could breath and one hit kill you.
Carebears - people playing videogames in their pajamas at home for amusement, none of whom are actually fighting, or at risk, or will really die (regardless whether they PvE or PvP).
Non-carebears - people serving in hostile areas around the world who do not get to sit at home playing videogames for amusement in their pajamas, because they are really fighting.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Also, while a black belt might beat a beginner, they probably wouldn't beat 2-3 beginners at the same time. Who said a bunch of low levels shouldn't be able to gang up on a high level? With 10-20 low levels you should have a chance to take out a level 60. That way they aren't totally defenseless..
Yeah. Unless the lvl 60 has a AOE. then all the little maggots are fucked.
And thats if the lvl 1s are able to even hit the lvl 60. In most games all they would do would be 'Resists' and 'dodges'.
Well, it really edepends on how the game is set up.
Enough low levels should be able to take out a lone high level.
Most people complain about high levels going into newbie areas, but it tends to only be a few people on a given server who will do this. They can't ever form huge groups who are going to just go into a level 1 zone and kill people, there isn't enough interest. For the few people who do go there, there would be enough people who want to get rid of them for the low levels to actually put up a fight.
There is just too much interest in protecting low levels from high levels. More people would defend the low levels than say "Let's go kill newbies". So the scenario where high levels just sit outside of a town all day is unrealistic. They are always dealt with
I Highly respect high level players and anyone willing to level in one in pvp server. i love good duel or going pvp when entering enemey faction. BUT....i think if lowbie "under level 10" then it's not skilled pvp it's just plain greifing. true pvp is watching your back and when the fight starts either side can win. i use to play matrix online and if i remember right you had to be lv 15 before pvp flag was up.
There has been some confusion here about the exact meaning of the term carebear, so I will clarify it.
A carebear is someone who is anti pure PvP.
A PvE'r can be a carebear, and a PvPer can be a carebear.
People who are anti pure PvP. This means that they dont want PvP that has no restrictions.
For instance, they think that a level 1 in their town should be protected from a level 60.
They think it should be impossible for PvP to occur when the numbers are not even. God forbid someone ever 2v1'd someone.
Most likely, these carebears are the product of playing a PvP server and getting PKed once. Instead of accepting their loss and moving on, they decided to pack up shop and head to a carebear server. Most normal PvP players accept a loss regardless of the disadvantages etc. or any other excuses. But the carebears, no. They think there should be special rules protecting everyone from other people.
And if you think this is a joke I'm not joking. PvP nowadays is so far from real PvP it is sickening. All those hardcore GM's and Gladiators from WoW would normally be on the PvE servers in EQ because the PvP servers were the penal colonies. You have to be really hardened to play there.
[Mod Edit]
There are no such things as carebears. That is what we call a "Big Lie". By trying to put a huge label on everyone but your particular special interest group, you attempt to confuse the perception of normality to make it seem as if your unlabeled group is normal, and the big labeled group comprised of everyone else is somehow not normal.
The truth is there are 4 general types of game players as defined by their predominant Bartle profile characteristic. 3 of those kinds of players (Achiever, Socializer, and Explorer) can coexist together without screwing up each other's game, and in fact collaborate extremely well to make games more popular and fun to play. The 4th and by far the least numerous kind (Killer) cannot coexist with any of the others (or even exist in game) without messing up someone else's game time for their selfish, screwed-up gratification.
This is why "pure PvP" games are fail compared to games which serve the vast majority of the market, and why MMO companies need to stop caring about PvPers at all. They are just a tiny special interest group of the MMO market, and they can always get their particular fix from FPS games anyways.
So none of the rest of us MMO players really need them in our collaborative-play MMO games, and in fact, they don't even need us to get their Killer action on in the far more exciting venue of FPS games. Beats me why they even keep with MMOs when they've got a better game for their wants.
Oh, 4 general types of game players. Can I be all 4?
Instead of calling them killers, why not call them "People who want their MMORPG to have some more risk and be challenging"
You whine about labels then tell me there are 4 labels, lol
Everyone is all 4. But the predominant one is how you behave in game. I'm an ESAK - Explorer 70%, then Socializer 65%, Achiever 60%, and finally Killer 46%. So I don't just go find places and things, I find places, things and ways of doing things that lead to achievement, and I share them with others. That's what feeds my personal reward system. My last choice is always to kill for gain, and when I do I'm competent but hardly uber (unless my exploration mentality has found me a better way to kill something - in MMOs with their limited rulesets, this happens a lot more than you'd think ).
Look up the Bartle test and take it. It is one of those blind tests where you answer a bunch of "what would you do" questions. It was pretty amazing how it yanked out what I actually like to do as opposed to the kind of player I thought I was.
By the way, I just saw one of your posts in another thread saying that MMO companies should separate PvE and PvP. I agree completely with your analysis - they're working wayyy to hard to try to make a game that's for everyone, instead of obeying the 80/20 rule and just making a game that does a good job of pleasing a segment of their target market. So guess we're both on the same track - the best way to please everyone is to set up different games so that each type can have their preferred game.
Comments
Thats a carebear haven..
If you want to trade items you better sit in the commonlands and trade channel and say /WTS item
Sick of automated trading systems.
Well.... This is the tricky thing about MMOs is if they are going to have all out PvP then they need to have balance. Yeah.... Guards should come to Level 1 player rescue although lkely they would be too late if he is that far outclassed but as I said. If the player is high enough then yeah he can slaughter the guards. For example... If he slew the newb in a dirt farm village then the guards are likely not gonna be much of a fight or even may flee but if he slew the newb in say.... the capitol city. Yeah, that PvPer would likely be screwed. Most good MMORPGs should have a reputation and faction system in place. Certain cities or factions might not allow you in because of your actions. Thats just common sense. You don't allow Jack the Ripper into the Royal Court Room. Course.... Killing newbs out in the wild should never effect faction or reputation. Why? Heh, cause there is no one to see it.
I maintain my position that EVE has the best of both worlds. Concord ftw.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
I agree. EVE has an excellent PvP system. No where is safe although EVE now and then suffers the occasional exploit. You can try to kill someone anytime and anywhere heh but you'd be stupid to try in some places. Course.... the alts with the suicide gankers aren't exactly realistic but encountering those are uncommon if you have a fair idea what your doin.
Pfft, if you wanted to, you could still attack people in hi-sec. You'd get your butt blasted to a million pieces, but if you're stupid (or angry) enough to try, more power to you. Thus, the system is not restricted and the OP must agree that EVE is not carebear.
That's funny, though, because I still see players who like playing in Empire space called carebears. /shrug
Yes, I am
Nothing is more hardcore than unrestricted/no rules PvP. How is open world PvP casual again? You can be exping in a low level zone and a bunch of level 60s show up and kill everyone. I guess it is casual to get PKed by high levels.
It's funny you bring up how "less skilled players can win". Tell me, who is likely going to have more skill. A level 1 in vendor gear or a level 60 who has practically beaten the game?
In any case, this argument is silly. The low level should level up if he doesn't want to get killed by a level 60. It sounds like you want an MMORPG that has no ability for players to advance.. because you want a level 1 to be able to take out a level 60. I guess you can make an MMORPG where all of your items don't have any stats, because you don't want there to be any "gear advantages", which are an "unfair non skill element"
People here who say that investing time and effort into your character shouldn't give any rewards.. what kind of statement is that? I guess you want an MMORPG without any way to advance, because everyone starts out with the same stuff, and no one can be different.
You just want to eliminate all of the differences between players. What's next, going to give my character the same face as yours because my character face gives me an unfair advantage?
And so what if they would lose straight up 1 on 1 fights. War is war. Sure, sometimes a bad player will hide behindo numbers, but if they have enough bad players in the pack, sometimes a coordinated group f low levels can take them out too.
Group of bad players PK low levels? Get a group of good players to come in and take them out, that is the solution. Sometimes good players will PK low levels too, so I don't know why you act that it's always low skilled players who are in groups
Amazing. Did you really just typed that or am I seeing things?
So, it takes skill to level up now? What fucking amazing mmos have you been playing, cause I want some. And here I was thinking leveling was just a matter of time.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Well, if the level 1 Player beats your level 60 I'd tell ya who had the skill. heh Jus kiddin.
Yeah, a huge shocker. A person who invests time in a game is likely to be better at the game than a level 1.
I know this isn't true for all MMORPGs, especially WoW. But in most MMORPGs level 1's and 60's are generally at different skill levels
You know in older MMORPGs, you actually could die if you went afk for more than 10 seconds. Nowadays, dying while AFK is too inconvenient for players, so the PVE is too easy. PVE nowadays is just annoying, but it isn't stuff that can do damage.
No, sorry. You said skill, not time invested, dont try to double back.
And a level 1 and a level 60 are not at different skill levels, they are in different places in a timeline. Give time to the level 1 and he'll be 60. Just like the level 60 guy.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Someone who has no experience with something will not be as skilled as someone with experience.
With enough experience, he might be at the same skill level. But a new player isn't going to be as skilled as a veteran, no matter how good they are at other games. It's a difference in knowledge they can't overcome in a millenia of struggle.
I have PvPed. Whether the PvP I participated in "counts" I guess is subject to opinion.
I PvPed in original SWG fairly often.
I used to play Counterstrike quite a lot, as well as 4-5 similar games.
I did every kind of PvP in WoW, from the open world conflicts at launch, to battlegrounds, arenas, Wintergrasp, etc. I think when I retired from WoW about 8 months ago I had over 18,000 kills, for what that's worth.
I'm not saying that I am a good PvPer. I would say I am pretty average at best. But the point is, I have tried it. I have been killed lots and lots, but I kept doing it and gave it a fair chance to be entertaining.
And after doing it, I decided I don't like it. /shrug That doesn't mean PvP is bad. It just bores me.
That's because I don't play mmos to fight other people. I'm not looking for Counterstrike - Elf Batallion. I'm there for the PvE, and that's it.
What does become tiresome is an attitude that some PvPers (not all, and this is not directed at the OP) adopt. It's this silly, cartoon e-tough trash talk, as if PvP is something that proves your manhood. Fighting with cartoon characters is hardly a demonstration of masculinity, or a justification for disparaging other people's form of fun.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
...moved....
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Actually, a good PvP game would dispense of levels altogether. How good you are at PvP would be situational. What skills did you invest in, what weapons are you using, where and how are you trying to slay your player. I think players should be powerful based off experience, skills invested in, real life skill, and equipment. I can see a person taking on a stronger foe who is in better equipment and winning if he attacks smarter. ie You can have some major melee whomping skills and Dragon Armor of the Gods but that aint gonna help you forever from the jerk shooting at you with the bow on the cliff. Unfortunately, most MMOs these days like Champions and others are a race to see who can get to level 50 the fastest in the shortest amount of time.
I feel you should take pride in your character. Quest for rare armor or craft it. Pick a style of PvP. Are you a Ninja? A Black Knight? Jumping out of the shadows and hacking with a sword should not be effective all the time regardless of level. True PvP should involve skill. Its..... an art..... Its beautiful.
Heh, I'm not sure there are any MMOs out there like that tho.
Im sorry if you think that real pvp is a bunch of 60s hammering down on lvl 1 newbies. Yeah a fucking black belt will always beat someone who just started learning kung fu.
Black belt vs black belt, thats the only true pvp. But give a fair and challenging fight to "hardcore pvp'ers" and they bail.
Do you know why organized sports have rules and regulations? I'll give you a hint. They are trying to figure out who is the best at them.
[Mod Edit]
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Carebear:
A derogatory term used by PvP'ers who think the way THEY like to PvP is the only "real" way, to describe anyone (whether another PvP'er or a PvE'er) that doesn't like the same style of game play that they do.
Similar to the term "lost" used by born agains to describe anyone that doesn't believe the same way they do, it is meant to display the "born again's" superiority. Of course they will say it with ohhhhh so much mustered up fake compassion. /rolls eyes
Not to be confused with the cuddly cute teddy bears from the cartoon, no matter HOW MUCH certain PvP'ers argue that it's a term of endearment or a simple description of someone who doesn't PvP. Bullshit.
It's meant to set the person throwing about the "carebear" word, in a place of superiority over the "carebears," because they are so "hardcore" and the "carebears" are so beneath them. This is why the term is a teddy bear, a child's toy, a fluffy piece of insubstantial security blanket for babies, essentially.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
There are no such things as carebears. That is what we call a "Big Lie". By trying to put a huge label on everyone but your particular special interest group, you attempt to confuse the perception of normality to make it seem as if your unlabeled group is normal, and the big labeled group comprised of everyone else is somehow not normal.
The truth is there are 4 general types of game players as defined by their predominant Bartle profile characteristic. 3 of those kinds of players (Achiever, Socializer, and Explorer) can coexist together without screwing up each other's game, and in fact collaborate extremely well to make games more popular and fun to play. The 4th and by far the least numerous kind (Killer) cannot coexist with any of the others (or even exist in game) without messing up someone else's game time for their selfish, screwed-up gratification.
This is why "pure PvP" games are fail compared to games which serve the vast majority of the market, and why MMO companies need to stop caring about PvPers at all. They are just a tiny special interest group of the MMO market, and they can always get their particular fix from FPS games anyways.
So none of the rest of us MMO players really need them in our collaborative-play MMO games, and in fact, they don't even need us to get their Killer action on in the far more exciting venue of FPS games. Beats me why they even keep with MMOs when they've got a better game for their wants.
I don't beat up kids, you know.
Some people just want a world that is dangerous again. Do I want to go after level 1s? No... unless I got really bored and wanted to bait higher level players into PvP.. then I might go take over a newbie leveling zone.
But really, those low levels who get PKed, at least they have the ability to get PKed by a level 60. You know how valuable that is? I know if I played an MMORPG and I was level 1, and leveling in a newb area, and a level 60 showed up and PKed me.. I would remember that definitely
They are lucky to get PKed by a level 60. Protecting them with rules would just hurt their experience.
Also, while a black belt might beat a beginner, they probably wouldn't beat 2-3 beginners at the same time. Who said a bunch of low levels shouldn't be able to gang up on a high level? With 10-20 low levels you should have a chance to take out a level 60. That way they aren't totally defenseless..
Oh, 4 general types of game players. Can I be all 4?
Instead of calling them killers, why not call them "People who want their MMORPG to have some more risk and be challenging"
You whine about labels then tell me there are 4 labels, lol
Yeah. Unless the lvl 60 has a AOE. then all the little maggots are fucked.
And thats if the lvl 1s are able to even hit the lvl 60. In most games all they would do would be 'Resists' and 'dodges'.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
In World of Warcraft you get level ?? players camping level 15 zones where they can one-shot all the nubs they want because those carebears should just deal with it or gtfo.
In Runescape you used to have clans of people pile on to one tile, so only one person is visible on the mini-map, and some unsuspecting n00b would walk right into a 20-on-1 encounter. Then again, if that player didn't want hardcore pvp, he should've just walked his noob ass out of the wildy.
In Darkfall you get players on mounts with the best armor in the game heading towards newbie zones to gank some naked nubs gathering goblin teeth for the starting quest, so they can afford to actually get a starting sword/mace or some cloth armor. What a bunch of newbs, they don't even have good armor.
In Mortal Online you get players abusing lag spikes to steal stuff from you and get away before you've even recovered from the lag. Your fault for being in a bank with your stuff.
In Warhammer Online, which is less of a problem now that the servers are down to about 10, you're better of rolling on the winning side, because otherwise your open RvR groups are going to be steamrolled by sheer numbers.
Aion does a better job of controlling faction population balance, but falls into the same trap WoW does: Get ready to have your ass handed to you by players who could breath and one hit kill you.
Carebears - people playing videogames in their pajamas at home for amusement, none of whom are actually fighting, or at risk, or will really die (regardless whether they PvE or PvP).
Non-carebears - people serving in hostile areas around the world who do not get to sit at home playing videogames for amusement in their pajamas, because they are really fighting.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Well, it really edepends on how the game is set up.
Enough low levels should be able to take out a lone high level.
Most people complain about high levels going into newbie areas, but it tends to only be a few people on a given server who will do this. They can't ever form huge groups who are going to just go into a level 1 zone and kill people, there isn't enough interest. For the few people who do go there, there would be enough people who want to get rid of them for the low levels to actually put up a fight.
There is just too much interest in protecting low levels from high levels. More people would defend the low levels than say "Let's go kill newbies". So the scenario where high levels just sit outside of a town all day is unrealistic. They are always dealt with
I Highly respect high level players and anyone willing to level in one in pvp server. i love good duel or going pvp when entering enemey faction. BUT....i think if lowbie "under level 10" then it's not skilled pvp it's just plain greifing. true pvp is watching your back and when the fight starts either side can win. i use to play matrix online and if i remember right you had to be lv 15 before pvp flag was up.
Everyone is all 4. But the predominant one is how you behave in game. I'm an ESAK - Explorer 70%, then Socializer 65%, Achiever 60%, and finally Killer 46%. So I don't just go find places and things, I find places, things and ways of doing things that lead to achievement, and I share them with others. That's what feeds my personal reward system. My last choice is always to kill for gain, and when I do I'm competent but hardly uber (unless my exploration mentality has found me a better way to kill something - in MMOs with their limited rulesets, this happens a lot more than you'd think
Look up the Bartle test and take it. It is one of those blind tests where you answer a bunch of "what would you do" questions. It was pretty amazing how it yanked out what I actually like to do as opposed to the kind of player I thought I was.
By the way, I just saw one of your posts in another thread saying that MMO companies should separate PvE and PvP. I agree completely with your analysis - they're working wayyy to hard to try to make a game that's for everyone, instead of obeying the 80/20 rule and just making a game that does a good job of pleasing a segment of their target market. So guess we're both on the same track - the best way to please everyone is to set up different games so that each type can have their preferred game.