First when I said a player who wants a challenge over artificial intelligence, it was referring to pvping against real opponents in a fair fight. As opposed to fighting artificial intelligence.
What is a carebear? What is a pvper, what is a Pker? These can all be answered with the same response: " Made up names to describe players of a certain play-style. More often than not they are over generalizations based on stereotype, rather than any actual fact or reality".
Understand yet?
Yes I do understand, I am just not sure that you understand. I also agree with just about everything you typed except pvper and pker.
In reality Pvper and pker are the exact same thing. They are 2 words for the exact same thing. You can call me a pvper or a pker and I will answer to both. They both involve killing a player, doesn't matter if that player is of equal level or skill. A kill is a kill.
There are no defined line definitions for either of these terms. At their core they are the same. One just refers to the end result of a PvP conflict that is all.
When you fight a player in pvp what is the end result?
You don't Player Hug them, you don't Player Kiss them, you Player KILL them.
Real PVPers want games about PVP, where skilled play yields victory.
But what is a 'Real Pvp'er'? Because all the one's I see don't want skill to be a factor, they just want a win no matter what, be it spawn point camping with 5 of their high level buddies and killing toon's spawning in prior to them being able to move or wandering gank squads jumping on single targets when they know they can't lose and then running to the forums to crow about what hardcore Pvp'ers they are.
Offer them a fight where there is even a slight chance they could lose i.e. 4 or 5 vs their 6 and they run away and hide.
Don't believe me? Go to any thread that suggests hiding gear stats and read all the whining how that would destroy Pvp. The one post that's always stuck with me was the guy that wrote 'but then I wouldn't know if I'd win'. He didn't want Pvp, he only wanted to feel big by killing those with no chance.
My very best Pvp experience ever was in PotBS when a buddy and I went up against 3 ships vs our 2. 2 of the enemy were even with us and the 3rd alot better. Know what? He fought them to a stand still and made them flee the map. No sinkings on either side but we out fought them even though we were outnumbered. It was fun, exciting and used skill. Thats what Pvp should be about.
TO THE OP:
- A carebear is anyone that doesn't agree with a Pvp'ers sense of how the universe should revolve around their winning experience, no matter how lopsided it is.
Yes I do understand, I am just not sure that you understand. I also agree with just about everything you typed except pvper and pker.
In reality Pvper and pker are the exact same thing. They are 2 words for the exact same thing. You can call me a pvper or a pker and I will answer to both. They both involve killing a player, doesn't matter if that player is of equal level or skill. A kill is a kill.
T
Of course they are, we're all just players playing how we play. As for agreeing with the terms pvper or pker, or even carebear. There's nothing to agree or disagree with. It's just an acronym used to describe individual tendency.
They all derived from the same place, the gaming community. Pker is a common term from the UO era, used to describe players who frequently ganked newbs. That's all I was saying.
Still I do agree with Kyle, going back to where this started. To me there's a huge difference between a player who actually likes to PVP and desires a challenge, compared to a player who simply goes around chest beating while ganking newbs. I said the same in my intial post in this thread.
I feel it's far more carebear to gank a newb than it is for a newb to not like being ganked over and over again. You're opinion may differ and that's fine, I just think as a PVPer one should expect better of their peers.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What you're describing is referred to as a Pk'er not a PVPer.
Oh ok, Let's see.
Player Versus Player.
AND
Player Killer.
There is no difference in these 2, UNLESS when you get to the point in PvP when your are RIGHTTTTT about to finish off the player, you stop and hug. I have never seen this before personally, it usually ends in the death of 1 party.
So if you "Player vs Player" someone and you kill them, what did you do?
You "Player Killer" him did you not?
That is what I thought.
No the difference is a PVPer is an acronym that describes a player who, wants a challenge over artificial intelligence. A pker is commonly defined as player who wants no challenge and attacks only noobs, so you thought wrong.
What is a player? It is a person controlling a digital avatar.
What is a NPC (non player character)? It is an artificial intelligence. Created by the game for a specific purpose.
Ok so since when did PvP turn into PvNPC? That is what you just said. PvP or PvPer is an acronym that describes a player who wants a challenge over an artifical intelligence.
So that would suggest a player is fighting against a NPC or artificial program. This is wrong. PvP or PvPer is just what the name implies, a Player versus a Player.
Two very real non artificial intelligences fighting against one another.
When a player then kills another player in a digital world he is a player killer. It doesn't matter if it is solo or in wide scale guild vs guild combat, they are all in essence killing players, making each and every one of them a player killer.
Somewhere along the lines of time, someone decided to try and label a player who kills another player as a "PKer" in a negative aspect just as the main topic implies that someone started the word carebear as a neagative aspect.
PvP is Player vs Player and PKing is the act of killing another player in a game. That is all.
I believe what he meant was that PvPers want a challenge greater than fighting an NPC.
And that is really at the heart of why the OP's argrument is nothing more than trolling garbage.
The key word is challenge. Most of the people that argue for full, open, no rules PvP don't want a challenge. They want to be able to be experience the video game equivalent of beating up kindergartners.
I like PvP, when it is challenging. I loved it when I was leveling up, and someone 10 levels higher than me jumped me thinking I would be an easy kill, and then making them realize that they made a terrible mistake. And yeah, I would corpse camp their sorry asses to make sure they remembered not to underestimate their opponents.
To me, ganking has no place in pvp. And by ganking, I mean running around slaughtering other players that have zero chance of putting up a fight. You can call that carebear if you want, but really, no one gains in those situations. The lowbie learns nothing, and the higher level toon gains nothing. It's one thing for a lowbie to get blasted when they wander off into a zone they dont belong in, but usually it's the high level toon in the lowbie zone taking his frustrations out on a target that can't fight back.
As for zerging, and uneven odds, some days you're the hammer, and some days you're the nail. But those same people that pine for no rules PvP are also the ones that dance and laugh at the poor bastard that just got steamrolled 10 on one, the same ones that run and grab five+ guildies when you beat them one on one. They don't want a challenge, they just want to get their way, all the time. These are the same types of people call the cops when they talk shit to some guy and then get their ass kicked, or only talk tough when they are running deep with their friends.
You want to be king of the sandbox, there are plenty of FPS's that cater to that. Anyone that cries about carebears in an MMORPG is really just a bully that can't cut it in an environment that caters to what he is pining for.
What you're describing is referred to as a Pk'er not a PVPer.
Oh ok, Let's see.
Player Versus Player.
AND
Player Killer.
There is no difference in these 2, UNLESS when you get to the point in PvP when your are RIGHTTTTT about to finish off the player, you stop and hug. I have never seen this before personally, it usually ends in the death of 1 party.
So if you "Player vs Player" someone and you kill them, what did you do?
You "Player Killer" him did you not?
That is what I thought.
No the difference is a PVPer is an acronym that describes a player who, wants a challenge over artificial intelligence. A pker is commonly defined as player who wants no challenge and attacks only noobs, so you thought wrong.
What is a player? It is a person controlling a digital avatar.
What is a NPC (non player character)? It is an artificial intelligence. Created by the game for a specific purpose.
Ok so since when did PvP turn into PvNPC? That is what you just said. PvP or PvPer is an acronym that describes a player who wants a challenge over an artifical intelligence.
So that would suggest a player is fighting against a NPC or artificial program. This is wrong. PvP or PvPer is just what the name implies, a Player versus a Player.
Two very real non artificial intelligences fighting against one another.
When a player then kills another player in a digital world he is a player killer. It doesn't matter if it is solo or in wide scale guild vs guild combat, they are all in essence killing players, making each and every one of them a player killer.
Somewhere along the lines of time, someone decided to try and label a player who kills another player as a "PKer" in a negative aspect just as the main topic implies that someone started the word carebear as a neagative aspect.
PvP is Player vs Player and PKing is the act of killing another player in a game. That is all.
I believe what he meant was that PvPers want a challenge greater than fighting an NPC.
And that is really at the heart of why the OP's argrument is nothing more than trolling garbage.
The key word is challenge. Most of the people that argue for full, open, no rules PvP don't want a challenge. They want to be able to be experience the video game equivalent of beating up kindergartners.
I like PvP, when it is challenging. I loved it when I was leveling up, and someone 10 levels higher than me jumped me thinking I would be an easy kill, and then making them realize that they made a terrible mistake. And yeah, I would corpse camp their sorry asses to make sure they remembered not to underestimate their opponents.
To me, ganking has no place in pvp. And by ganking, I mean running around slaughtering other players that have zero chance of putting up a fight. You can call that carebear if you want, but really, no one gains in those situations. The lowbie learns nothing, and the higher level toon gains nothing. It's one thing for a lowbie to get blasted when they wander off into a zone they dont belong in, but usually it's the high level toon in the lowbie zone taking his frustrations out on a target that can't fight back.
As for zerging, and uneven odds, some days you're the hammer, and some days you're the nail. But those same people that pine for no rules PvP are also the ones that dance and laugh at the poor bastard that just got steamrolled 10 on one, the same ones that run and grab five+ guildies when you beat them one on one. They don't want a challenge, they just want to get their way, all the time. These are the same types of people call the cops when they talk shit to some guy and then get their ass kicked, or only talk tough when they are running deep with their friends.
You want to be king of the sandbox, there are plenty of FPS's that cater to that. Anyone that cries about carebears in an MMORPG is really just a bully that can't cut it in an environment that caters to what he is pining for.
This I will agree with.
Now the Ganker is much different to me than a PvPer or a Pker. If you want to talk ganking, well I think ganking is bad BUT some ganking can't be stopped.
We can take the old days of DAoC for a sec.
I played an Inf, and a Scout in DAoC, and I was really good at what I did. I also played in other teams of stealthers which were within the rules of combat in DAoC. Now then sometimes, not often but sometimes, these "zergs" would run around with skalds or something for speed and other buffs even though these players might be only level 41-43. So were we suppose to NOT kill the skald even though he was out running with the big boys, even though he didn't have a snowballs chance in hell of defeating a 50 inf or scout? Of course not we lit his ass up just the same. He shouldn't have put himself into that situation if he didn't want to eat dirt.
That was my point to PKer and PvPer, killing people who have no business in that realm of things. It happens in every game. Some dumb ass noob level 6 is going to run around a 40 pvp zone just to "explore" then cry when I run by and cut him down. he had no business there, and I showed him he had no business there.
I do not go around level 1 zones slaughtering the weak, but if the weak crosses my path in a place he should not be, I do not simply tilt my hat to him and say good day, I cut his head off and throw my hat on his stupid dead body.
Is that ganking? Maybe, but hopefully he learns until he reaches the level and skills needed to fight against me, he needs to stay away from the areas players like myself roam. That's all.
There has been some confusion here about the exact meaning of the term carebear, so I will clarify it.
A carebear is someone who is anti pure PvP.
A PvE'r can be a carebear, and a PvPer can be a carebear.
People who are anti pure PvP. This means that they dont want PvP that has no restrictions.
For instance, they think that a level 1 in their town should be protected from a level 60.
They think it should be impossible for PvP to occur when the numbers are not even. God forbid someone ever 2v1'd someone.
Most likely, these carebears are the product of playing a PvP server and getting PKed once. Instead of accepting their loss and moving on, they decided to pack up shop and head to a carebear server. Most normal PvP players accept a loss regardless of the disadvantages etc. or any other excuses. But the carebears, no. They think there should be special rules protecting everyone from other people.
And if you think this is a joke I'm not joking. PvP nowadays is so far from real PvP it is sickening. All those hardcore GM's and Gladiators from WoW would normally be on the PvE servers in EQ because the PvP servers were the penal colonies. You have to be really hardened to play there.
[Mod Edit]
Carebear11!!1 -
This rebuttal is actually falling out of favor with FFA PvP advocates, I'm assuming, because most of them have begun to realize how ineffective it really is.
I guess they're hoping that all of us "cearbears" will get pissed off, log into Shadowbane, Lineage 2, Eve Online, or some random olde skool private UO shard IN MASS so that we can get slaughtered and tea bagged for the gratification of these social misanthropes. Or, more likely, they want us to log into the solitary FFA PvP server of a more popular game so that the population spike will keep that sever from being shut down. In any case, this "argument" doesn't work and just makes the person saying it look like a childish prick.
This is the rebuttal to the carebear arguement that I placed in the second part of my three part FFA PvP blog series I posted near the beginning of 2008.
i'm considered a Carebear because i'm anti-grieving, i don't attack lowbies and i don't corpse camp. i love pvp and enjoy it for fun but its just not fun for me to kill some one that stood no chance against me over and over and i know it must really suck for them if i do.
the only time i've killed lowbies is when i was grieved by high levels on an alt and i got on my higher level and killed them. revenge is always awsome tho, specially when you get them to complain about you on the games forums. I was playing Aion and playing a level 20 assassin alt in morhiem got jumped by 2 level 37 gladiators and stomped bad. well went back out after dying and they killed me again put up a shop to trash talk. got on my main wich was a 39 spirit master ran out there and just rolled them both in a 2v1 fight took little dmg to myself. they then got on the Aion Server forums and complained because i used 1 potion during the 2v1 fight....>.< it was deffinitly my most satisfying kill in pvp because not only did i kill 2 grievers that grieved me personally over and over but i killed them both in a 2v1 fight to show them just how horrible they are at the game and beat them bad enough to cry about it on the forums..lol
1. Lightly derogatory term for an MMO player who avoids PVP combat, heavily preferring cooperative or solo PVE combat, chatting, or developing tradeskills/running quests. Depending on the game and the individual, this PVP avoidance can show up in several ways: by playing on strict non-PVP servers; by avoiding PVP areas or declining duels; or, by avoiding or condemning PVP players.
Philosophically, they often cite unbalanced combat systems, overpowered guilds, ebayed characters, and ganking as reasons to prefer less aggressive play. The mindset can be self-sustaining in several ways: high-level "care bears" may have avatars that are tailored for PVE, not PVP; they may not network with skilled PVP players; or, they may morally refuse to learn aggressive PVP tactics.
As an insult, the term applies less to players who merely prefer PVE to PVP and more to individuals who question the basic legitimacy of PVP or who greatly overreact to their avatars' deaths. Bear in mind that it is strictly incorrect to refer to the victims of heavy exploiters as Care Bears. Abbreviated CB. Compare with RPK, Player Killing/PK, PVP.
2. Adjective describing a strictly PVE server or game.
1. PVP: *kills CB*
CB: What the ****? I didn't do anything to you; why did you kill me?
1. Lightly derogatory term for an MMO player who avoids PVP combat, heavily preferring cooperative or solo PVE combat, chatting, or developing tradeskills/running quests. Depending on the game and the individual, this PVP avoidance can show up in several ways: by playing on strict non-PVP servers; by avoiding PVP areas or declining duels; or, by avoiding or condemning PVP players.
Philosophically, they often cite unbalanced combat systems, overpowered guilds, ebayed characters, and ganking as reasons to prefer less aggressive play. The mindset can be self-sustaining in several ways: high-level "care bears" may have avatars that are tailored for PVE, not PVP; they may not network with skilled PVP players; or, they may morally refuse to learn aggressive PVP tactics.
As an insult, the term applies less to players who merely prefer PVE to PVP and more to individuals who question the basic legitimacy of PVP or who greatly overreact to their avatars' deaths. Bear in mind that it is strictly incorrect to refer to the victims of heavy exploiters as Care Bears. Abbreviated CB. Compare with RPK, Player Killing/PK, PVP.
2. Adjective describing a strictly PVE server or game.
1. PVP: *kills CB*
CB: What the ****? I didn't do anything to you; why did you kill me?
1. Lightly derogatory term for an MMO player who avoids PVP combat, heavily preferring cooperative or solo PVE combat, chatting, or developing tradeskills/running quests. Depending on the game and the individual, this PVP avoidance can show up in several ways: by playing on strict non-PVP servers; by avoiding PVP areas or declining duels; or, by avoiding or condemning PVP players.
Philosophically, they often cite unbalanced combat systems, overpowered guilds, ebayed characters, and ganking as reasons to prefer less aggressive play. The mindset can be self-sustaining in several ways: high-level "care bears" may have avatars that are tailored for PVE, not PVP; they may not network with skilled PVP players; or, they may morally refuse to learn aggressive PVP tactics.
As an insult, the term applies less to players who merely prefer PVE to PVP and more to individuals who question the basic legitimacy of PVP or who greatly overreact to their avatars' deaths. Bear in mind that it is strictly incorrect to refer to the victims of heavy exploiters as Care Bears. Abbreviated CB. Compare with RPK, Player Killing/PK, PVP.
2. Adjective describing a strictly PVE server or game.
1. PVP: *kills CB*
CB: What the ****? I didn't do anything to you; why did you kill me?
im a carebear. i love pvp, and dont care if i get ganked. i rp lite sometimes, and i hate quest based games and grinding. i thouroughly enjoy games that provide niches for gankers and PvEers. WoW was almost it for me, but its lack of anything important to do made it real boring real fast for me.
carebear is anyone who will avoid and reject any form of PvP unless odds are heavily stacked on his favour.
The purest form of PvP is competition.
A non-carebear player will be in a balanced situation and will engage. Whats even more, he might find himself in a situation vs a better geared/higher leveled/ outnumbering opponent and will still purposedly engage him/them to prove himself.
A carebear player would run until he gets more backup than needed, tacitly admitting that his skills werent up for the challenge and his competitive spirit is nill.
there is a reason why "ganker" and "griefer" terms were coined. To label those who do pvp, but still never left the carebear stage.
Gankers and griefers are far from carebears. Just because they have a number advantage doesn't mean they won't stay and fight without one.
Ganking is just when you are outnumbered. What do you want, them to say "go get more people so we can have a fair fight"?
That is stupid and fake.
People only gank/grief so they can get attention, so more challenging opponents show up to fight. Claiming they are carebears just shows ignorance of games with real PvP systems.
A carebear is a PVP'er who thinks its OK for a level 60 to gank a level 10 with no chance of being killed.
Real PVP'er are looking for a more challenging fight. Not always equal of course, but there shouldn't be such a disparity that its like Zeus battling a shepard boy.
No, a carebear would be the level 10 if he quit after being PKed.
Level 60 is just looking for trouble, that doesn' make them a carebear.
Gankers, griefers etc. are all valid PvPers. They get people to show up by doing things like that.
A carebear is a PVP'er who thinks its OK for a level 60 to gank a level 10 with no chance of being killed.
Real PVP'er are looking for a more challenging fight. Not always equal of course, but there shouldn't be such a disparity that its like Zeus battling a shepard boy.
No, a carebear would be the level 10 if he quit after being PKed.
Level 60 is just looking for trouble, that doesn' make them a carebear.
Gankers, griefers etc. are all valid PvPers. They get people to show up by doing things like that.
If someone was truly looking for a PvP experience they wouldn't hide in low level areas, killing people who have no chance on the odd hope of someone turning up that was closer to their level.
They would go to an area that was equal to their level and look for targets that provided them with a challenge. You can spin it however you want, hanging out in low level areas ganking lowbies is what socially stunted individuals do to give themselves a false sense of superiority because they cannot achieve this in the real world.
The only place and time I would say this does not hold true is with the Tarren Mill/Southshore open PvP fights in classic WoW. They started more often because both factions were questing in the same area - low levels would clash, guildmates would turn up and then it became a free for all with players from all levels. It rarely started because a level 60 was hanging out ganking level 20s.
A carebear is a PVP'er who thinks its OK for a level 60 to gank a level 10 with no chance of being killed.
Real PVP'er are looking for a more challenging fight. Not always equal of course, but there shouldn't be such a disparity that its like Zeus battling a shepard boy.
No, a carebear would be the level 10 if he quit after being PKed.
Level 60 is just looking for trouble, that doesn' make them a carebear.
Gankers, griefers etc. are all valid PvPers. They get people to show up by doing things like that.
If someone was truly looking for a PvP experience they wouldn't hide in low level areas, killing people who have no chance on the odd hope of someone turning up that was closer to their level.
They would go to an area that was equal to their level and look for targets that provided them with a challenge. You can spin it however you want, hanging out in low level areas ganking lowbies is what socially stunted individuals do to give themselves a false sense of superiority because they cannot achieve this in the real world.
The only place and time I would say this does not hold true is with the Tarren Mill/Southshore open PvP fights in classic WoW. They started more often because both factions were questing in the same area - low levels would clash, guildmates would turn up and then it became a free for all with players from all levels. It rarely started because a level 60 was hanging out ganking level 20s.
They don't hide in low level areas. They go there, say "look at me killing everyone and you can't do anything about it". They get people to show up. Low levels know high levels, or have high levels.
In team based PvP, a high level from one team might attack a low level area belonging to another team. That is because they want players from that other team to show up and fight. Very common, and they always will show up to protect their team
They don't hide in low level areas. They go there, say "look at me killing everyone and you can't do anything about it". They get people to show up. Low levels know high levels, or have high levels.
In team based PvP, a high level from one team might attack a low level area belonging to another team. That is because they want players from that other team to show up and fight. Very common, and they always will show up to protect their team
Once again, what actual MMOs are you talking about this happening in? In my experience it is the EXACT opposite. Very few people are ever bothered about low level players getting ganked, they are all busy doing their high-level end-game stuff.
And yet there are quite a lot of bored high-level characters who hang out in low level zones specifically to piss people off and laugh at how uber they are being able to one shot and camp lowbies. They are not there for PvP, or to hopefully generate some pvp, they are there to give their life meaning by detracting from the experience of others.
The question still stands. If you want to PvP, why not go directly to the zone where you are guaranteed to find characters your level who will give you a challenge and a chance to prove your uberness? Why hang out in low level zones aggravating players in the HOPE that someone might turn up after an hour or two?
They don't hide in low level areas. They go there, say "look at me killing everyone and you can't do anything about it". They get people to show up. Low levels know high levels, or have high levels.
In team based PvP, a high level from one team might attack a low level area belonging to another team. That is because they want players from that other team to show up and fight. Very common, and they always will show up to protect their team
Once again, what actual MMOs are you talking about this happening in? In my experience it is the EXACT opposite. Very few people are ever bothered about low level players getting ganked, they are all busy doing their high-level end-game stuff.
And yet there are quite a lot of bored high-level characters who hang out in low level zones specifically to piss people off and laugh at how uber they are being able to one shot and camp lowbies. They are not there for PvP, or to hopefully generate some pvp, they are there to give their life meaning by detracting from the experience of others.
The question still stands. If you want to PvP, why not go directly to the zone where you are guaranteed to find characters your level who will give you a challenge and a chance to prove your uberness? Why hang out in low level zones aggravating players in the HOPE that someone might turn up after an hour or two?
Your reasoning doesn't make much sense.
Everquest.
In any team based PvP server, people will help their own team. I can see why a FFA PvP server would be different, but with team based there is more cohesion.
Sometimes it is more fun to hang out in a low level zone. Sometimes you just want to piss people off. Some people just want to be hated by everyone.
Anti pkers need to build out of game and in guild alliances.
the gankers do. the carebears do. the one side that could actually make a difference and solve this stupid conflict generally refuses to bind together as a bloc...this is why the two opposite extremes get to set the pace and tempo of this unwinnable debate.
A carebear is any non griefer, as only griefers call people carebears with any seriousness. if you are not a griefer, you need to band together with anyone like you and grind them into the dust. that the only way this will be resolved, and bring back us together as a marketing force to be reckoned with.
A. A large part of any particular MMO gaming base that PvP'ers cant attack due to restrictions based upon any given PVP system.
And I reckon thats what pisses the OP off the most. Theres so many people out there he cant kill in an MMO to further provw his superiority over a particular minority (or majority Im guessing nowadays). You can almost feel the nerdrage in his individual replies to various posters that he can tackle, and the obvious avoidance of the smarter replies.
I started PvPing once I started playing DAoC. I fought against other players when I chose to. And I guess thats what makes me a carebear, is that its my choice, not the "pure PVPers".
What some would call "carebear," I call having personal honor.
I tend to treat the player on the other end of that internet connection in the same manner as I would treat them if they were standing in front of me. That, to me, is honorable.
Just as I would not willingly attack someone in real life who had no hope of winning a fight against me, so I will not do so in a game. If that person attacks me first, I will make every effort to walk away - both in real life and in a game. If, for whatever reason, I am unable to walk away, I will use exactly the amount of force required to render them no longer a threat. In most games, that is simply incapacitating them - it does not require a death blow to get my point across.
The only exception to this for me in both real life and in my gaming is if I see someone attacking someone who cannot defend themselves (in real life, there must be imminent danger of bodily harm for me to step in physically, otherwise, that is what the police are for). In gaming, let's say a level 60 is attacking and corpse camping a level 20 in a level 20 questing area and I wander by on my level 80 and see this happening. Yes, I will step in and attack and kill the level 60 because that level 20 has no chance at all of defending themselves against a level 60 and corpse camping someone who is in an area that they should be in (as opposed to being in an area that they should not be in) is, in my opinion, not only unnecessary, but harassment.
I've no problem at all with PvP if that's your cup of tea. In fact, for nearly two years, my sole game content was PvP. What I do take issue with is those who would use "hardcore" PvP as an excuse for all kinds of behavior that I tend to question if those players would attempt to get away with if the people they were treating that way were standing in front of them rather than sitting hundreds or perhaps thousands of miles away on the other end of an internet connection.
I believe very strongly that one of the greatest things about the internet is that it brings large groups of people together in ways that were impossible thirty years ago. One of the worst things about the internet is that the anonymity it affords tends to bring out the very worst in people, allowing them to do things that I suspect many would never dream of doing in person.
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
Do you guys even know how long the word "carebear" been in the mmo industry or how it got into the mmo scene? I will give 50 kudos point to whoever knows this answer.
Comments
Yes I do understand, I am just not sure that you understand. I also agree with just about everything you typed except pvper and pker.
In reality Pvper and pker are the exact same thing. They are 2 words for the exact same thing. You can call me a pvper or a pker and I will answer to both. They both involve killing a player, doesn't matter if that player is of equal level or skill. A kill is a kill.
There are no defined line definitions for either of these terms. At their core they are the same. One just refers to the end result of a PvP conflict that is all.
When you fight a player in pvp what is the end result?
You don't Player Hug them, you don't Player Kiss them, you Player KILL them.
That is all I am trying to get you to see.
Originally posted by Axehilt
Real PVPers want games about PVP, where skilled play yields victory.
But what is a 'Real Pvp'er'? Because all the one's I see don't want skill to be a factor, they just want a win no matter what, be it spawn point camping with 5 of their high level buddies and killing toon's spawning in prior to them being able to move or wandering gank squads jumping on single targets when they know they can't lose and then running to the forums to crow about what hardcore Pvp'ers they are.
Offer them a fight where there is even a slight chance they could lose i.e. 4 or 5 vs their 6 and they run away and hide.
Don't believe me? Go to any thread that suggests hiding gear stats and read all the whining how that would destroy Pvp. The one post that's always stuck with me was the guy that wrote 'but then I wouldn't know if I'd win'. He didn't want Pvp, he only wanted to feel big by killing those with no chance.
My very best Pvp experience ever was in PotBS when a buddy and I went up against 3 ships vs our 2. 2 of the enemy were even with us and the 3rd alot better. Know what? He fought them to a stand still and made them flee the map. No sinkings on either side but we out fought them even though we were outnumbered. It was fun, exciting and used skill. Thats what Pvp should be about.
TO THE OP:
- A carebear is anyone that doesn't agree with a Pvp'ers sense of how the universe should revolve around their winning experience, no matter how lopsided it is.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
Of course they are, we're all just players playing how we play. As for agreeing with the terms pvper or pker, or even carebear. There's nothing to agree or disagree with. It's just an acronym used to describe individual tendency.
They all derived from the same place, the gaming community. Pker is a common term from the UO era, used to describe players who frequently ganked newbs. That's all I was saying.
Still I do agree with Kyle, going back to where this started. To me there's a huge difference between a player who actually likes to PVP and desires a challenge, compared to a player who simply goes around chest beating while ganking newbs. I said the same in my intial post in this thread.
I feel it's far more carebear to gank a newb than it is for a newb to not like being ganked over and over again. You're opinion may differ and that's fine, I just think as a PVPer one should expect better of their peers.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I believe what he meant was that PvPers want a challenge greater than fighting an NPC.
And that is really at the heart of why the OP's argrument is nothing more than trolling garbage.
The key word is challenge. Most of the people that argue for full, open, no rules PvP don't want a challenge. They want to be able to be experience the video game equivalent of beating up kindergartners.
I like PvP, when it is challenging. I loved it when I was leveling up, and someone 10 levels higher than me jumped me thinking I would be an easy kill, and then making them realize that they made a terrible mistake. And yeah, I would corpse camp their sorry asses to make sure they remembered not to underestimate their opponents.
To me, ganking has no place in pvp. And by ganking, I mean running around slaughtering other players that have zero chance of putting up a fight. You can call that carebear if you want, but really, no one gains in those situations. The lowbie learns nothing, and the higher level toon gains nothing. It's one thing for a lowbie to get blasted when they wander off into a zone they dont belong in, but usually it's the high level toon in the lowbie zone taking his frustrations out on a target that can't fight back.
As for zerging, and uneven odds, some days you're the hammer, and some days you're the nail. But those same people that pine for no rules PvP are also the ones that dance and laugh at the poor bastard that just got steamrolled 10 on one, the same ones that run and grab five+ guildies when you beat them one on one. They don't want a challenge, they just want to get their way, all the time. These are the same types of people call the cops when they talk shit to some guy and then get their ass kicked, or only talk tough when they are running deep with their friends.
You want to be king of the sandbox, there are plenty of FPS's that cater to that. Anyone that cries about carebears in an MMORPG is really just a bully that can't cut it in an environment that caters to what he is pining for.
This I will agree with.
Now the Ganker is much different to me than a PvPer or a Pker. If you want to talk ganking, well I think ganking is bad BUT some ganking can't be stopped.
We can take the old days of DAoC for a sec.
I played an Inf, and a Scout in DAoC, and I was really good at what I did. I also played in other teams of stealthers which were within the rules of combat in DAoC. Now then sometimes, not often but sometimes, these "zergs" would run around with skalds or something for speed and other buffs even though these players might be only level 41-43. So were we suppose to NOT kill the skald even though he was out running with the big boys, even though he didn't have a snowballs chance in hell of defeating a 50 inf or scout? Of course not we lit his ass up just the same. He shouldn't have put himself into that situation if he didn't want to eat dirt.
That was my point to PKer and PvPer, killing people who have no business in that realm of things. It happens in every game. Some dumb ass noob level 6 is going to run around a 40 pvp zone just to "explore" then cry when I run by and cut him down. he had no business there, and I showed him he had no business there.
I do not go around level 1 zones slaughtering the weak, but if the weak crosses my path in a place he should not be, I do not simply tilt my hat to him and say good day, I cut his head off and throw my hat on his stupid dead body.
Is that ganking? Maybe, but hopefully he learns until he reaches the level and skills needed to fight against me, he needs to stay away from the areas players like myself roam. That's all.
Carebear11!!1 -
This rebuttal is actually falling out of favor with FFA PvP advocates, I'm assuming, because most of them have begun to realize how ineffective it really is.
I guess they're hoping that all of us "cearbears" will get pissed off, log into Shadowbane, Lineage 2, Eve Online, or some random olde skool private UO shard IN MASS so that we can get slaughtered and tea bagged for the gratification of these social misanthropes. Or, more likely, they want us to log into the solitary FFA PvP server of a more popular game so that the population spike will keep that sever from being shut down. In any case, this "argument" doesn't work and just makes the person saying it look like a childish prick.
This is the rebuttal to the carebear arguement that I placed in the second part of my three part FFA PvP blog series I posted near the beginning of 2008.
[Mod Edit]
i'm considered a Carebear because i'm anti-grieving, i don't attack lowbies and i don't corpse camp. i love pvp and enjoy it for fun but its just not fun for me to kill some one that stood no chance against me over and over and i know it must really suck for them if i do.
the only time i've killed lowbies is when i was grieved by high levels on an alt and i got on my higher level and killed them. revenge is always awsome tho, specially when you get them to complain about you on the games forums. I was playing Aion and playing a level 20 assassin alt in morhiem got jumped by 2 level 37 gladiators and stomped bad. well went back out after dying and they killed me again put up a shop to trash talk. got on my main wich was a 39 spirit master ran out there and just rolled them both in a 2v1 fight took little dmg to myself. they then got on the Aion Server forums and complained because i used 1 potion during the 2v1 fight....>.< it was deffinitly my most satisfying kill in pvp because not only did i kill 2 grievers that grieved me personally over and over but i killed them both in a 2v1 fight to show them just how horrible they are at the game and beat them bad enough to cry about it on the forums..lol
Care Bear:
1. Lightly derogatory term for an MMO player who avoids PVP combat, heavily preferring cooperative or solo PVE combat, chatting, or developing tradeskills/running quests. Depending on the game and the individual, this PVP avoidance can show up in several ways: by playing on strict non-PVP servers; by avoiding PVP areas or declining duels; or, by avoiding or condemning PVP players.
Philosophically, they often cite unbalanced combat systems, overpowered guilds, ebayed characters, and ganking as reasons to prefer less aggressive play. The mindset can be self-sustaining in several ways: high-level "care bears" may have avatars that are tailored for PVE, not PVP; they may not network with skilled PVP players; or, they may morally refuse to learn aggressive PVP tactics.
As an insult, the term applies less to players who merely prefer PVE to PVP and more to individuals who question the basic legitimacy of PVP or who greatly overreact to their avatars' deaths. Bear in mind that it is strictly incorrect to refer to the victims of heavy exploiters as Care Bears. Abbreviated CB. Compare with RPK, Player Killing/PK, PVP.
2. Adjective describing a strictly PVE server or game.
1. PVP: *kills CB*
CB: What the ****? I didn't do anything to you; why did you kill me?
PVP: You were there.
CB: This is bull****. Go away!
PVP: *kills CB again*
CB: Quit camping me! WTF is wrong with you?
PVP: You were still there.
CB: *logs out*
*From the Urban Dictionary*
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
That about sums it up, good post echo.
I agree with this definition, and the descritpion of a typical PvP encounter vs a PvE players is just about spot on.
Fixed the log to include more information:
PVP: *kills CB*
CB: What the ****? I didn't do anything to you; why did you kill me?
PVP: You were there.
CB: This is bull****. Go away!
PVP: *kills CB again*
CB: Quit camping me! WTF is wrong with you?
PVP: You were still there.
CB: *logs out*
(rinse, repeat 60,000 times)
PVP1: Hey
PVP2: Hey, wassup?
PvP1: Any noobs around?
PVP2: Nope, haven't seen one all day
PVP1: *sigh* I heard they are consolidating servers again this week.
PVP2: Again? Man, this game is dying.
PVP1: Yeah, this lazy-ass game developer. If the game had more content, this wouldn't happen.
PVP2: truz, but I heard a bunch of carebears were whining on MMORPG.com that they are leaving because of too many PKs.
PVP1: That's just a lot of QQ 'cause they suck at playin the game. They get pwnd a couple of times and they ragequit. Hahahaha.
PVP2: Yeah, they suck, those carebears lol
(pause)
PVP1: Wanna go camp the road into town and pwn gatherers comin back with their loot?
PVP2: Ya, that sounds epicz.
PVP1: Yeah
LOL man that's awesome!
Awesome and so true lol
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
im a carebear. i love pvp, and dont care if i get ganked. i rp lite sometimes, and i hate quest based games and grinding. i thouroughly enjoy games that provide niches for gankers and PvEers. WoW was almost it for me, but its lack of anything important to do made it real boring real fast for me.
Gankers and griefers are far from carebears. Just because they have a number advantage doesn't mean they won't stay and fight without one.
Ganking is just when you are outnumbered. What do you want, them to say "go get more people so we can have a fair fight"?
That is stupid and fake.
People only gank/grief so they can get attention, so more challenging opponents show up to fight. Claiming they are carebears just shows ignorance of games with real PvP systems.
No, a carebear would be the level 10 if he quit after being PKed.
Level 60 is just looking for trouble, that doesn' make them a carebear.
Gankers, griefers etc. are all valid PvPers. They get people to show up by doing things like that.
Know who else is a carebear? People who whine about ganking.
Just can't handle unstructured or real PvP systems so they think there should be 6 million rules protecting them from unfair situations.
Depends on what you're referring to as ganking really..
Everyday PVP encounters? Sure..
Being a newb ganked over and over by one person for no reason what so ever? Not so much..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If someone was truly looking for a PvP experience they wouldn't hide in low level areas, killing people who have no chance on the odd hope of someone turning up that was closer to their level.
They would go to an area that was equal to their level and look for targets that provided them with a challenge. You can spin it however you want, hanging out in low level areas ganking lowbies is what socially stunted individuals do to give themselves a false sense of superiority because they cannot achieve this in the real world.
The only place and time I would say this does not hold true is with the Tarren Mill/Southshore open PvP fights in classic WoW. They started more often because both factions were questing in the same area - low levels would clash, guildmates would turn up and then it became a free for all with players from all levels. It rarely started because a level 60 was hanging out ganking level 20s.
They don't hide in low level areas. They go there, say "look at me killing everyone and you can't do anything about it". They get people to show up. Low levels know high levels, or have high levels.
In team based PvP, a high level from one team might attack a low level area belonging to another team. That is because they want players from that other team to show up and fight. Very common, and they always will show up to protect their team
Once again, what actual MMOs are you talking about this happening in? In my experience it is the EXACT opposite. Very few people are ever bothered about low level players getting ganked, they are all busy doing their high-level end-game stuff.
And yet there are quite a lot of bored high-level characters who hang out in low level zones specifically to piss people off and laugh at how uber they are being able to one shot and camp lowbies. They are not there for PvP, or to hopefully generate some pvp, they are there to give their life meaning by detracting from the experience of others.
The question still stands. If you want to PvP, why not go directly to the zone where you are guaranteed to find characters your level who will give you a challenge and a chance to prove your uberness? Why hang out in low level zones aggravating players in the HOPE that someone might turn up after an hour or two?
Your reasoning doesn't make much sense.
Everquest.
In any team based PvP server, people will help their own team. I can see why a FFA PvP server would be different, but with team based there is more cohesion.
Sometimes it is more fun to hang out in a low level zone. Sometimes you just want to piss people off. Some people just want to be hated by everyone.
Anti pkers need to build out of game and in guild alliances.
the gankers do. the carebears do. the one side that could actually make a difference and solve this stupid conflict generally refuses to bind together as a bloc...this is why the two opposite extremes get to set the pace and tempo of this unwinnable debate.
A carebear is any non griefer, as only griefers call people carebears with any seriousness. if you are not a griefer, you need to band together with anyone like you and grind them into the dust. that the only way this will be resolved, and bring back us together as a marketing force to be reckoned with.
Q. What is a carebear?
A. A large part of any particular MMO gaming base that PvP'ers cant attack due to restrictions based upon any given PVP system.
And I reckon thats what pisses the OP off the most. Theres so many people out there he cant kill in an MMO to further provw his superiority over a particular minority (or majority Im guessing nowadays). You can almost feel the nerdrage in his individual replies to various posters that he can tackle, and the obvious avoidance of the smarter replies.
I started PvPing once I started playing DAoC. I fought against other players when I chose to. And I guess thats what makes me a carebear, is that its my choice, not the "pure PVPers".
PAST: UO-SWG-DAOC-WOW-DDO-VG-AOC-WAR-FE-DFO-LOTRO-RIFT-GW2
PRESENT: Nothing
FUTURE: ESO
What some would call "carebear," I call having personal honor.
I tend to treat the player on the other end of that internet connection in the same manner as I would treat them if they were standing in front of me. That, to me, is honorable.
Just as I would not willingly attack someone in real life who had no hope of winning a fight against me, so I will not do so in a game. If that person attacks me first, I will make every effort to walk away - both in real life and in a game. If, for whatever reason, I am unable to walk away, I will use exactly the amount of force required to render them no longer a threat. In most games, that is simply incapacitating them - it does not require a death blow to get my point across.
The only exception to this for me in both real life and in my gaming is if I see someone attacking someone who cannot defend themselves (in real life, there must be imminent danger of bodily harm for me to step in physically, otherwise, that is what the police are for). In gaming, let's say a level 60 is attacking and corpse camping a level 20 in a level 20 questing area and I wander by on my level 80 and see this happening. Yes, I will step in and attack and kill the level 60 because that level 20 has no chance at all of defending themselves against a level 60 and corpse camping someone who is in an area that they should be in (as opposed to being in an area that they should not be in) is, in my opinion, not only unnecessary, but harassment.
I've no problem at all with PvP if that's your cup of tea. In fact, for nearly two years, my sole game content was PvP. What I do take issue with is those who would use "hardcore" PvP as an excuse for all kinds of behavior that I tend to question if those players would attempt to get away with if the people they were treating that way were standing in front of them rather than sitting hundreds or perhaps thousands of miles away on the other end of an internet connection.
I believe very strongly that one of the greatest things about the internet is that it brings large groups of people together in ways that were impossible thirty years ago. One of the worst things about the internet is that the anonymity it affords tends to bring out the very worst in people, allowing them to do things that I suspect many would never dream of doing in person.
Firebrand Art
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
Do you guys even know how long the word "carebear" been in the mmo industry or how it got into the mmo scene? I will give 50 kudos point to whoever knows this answer.