Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think we've seen many games that do all these things together in a good while. I'm hopeful though. I admit this is coming from someone that likes to solo now and then but also likes a good group experience. I don't think those two things can't happen in the same game if designed right.
Would you play the game if you could not gain xp while soloing at all? You could still gain gold, gather crafting mats, earn rep with faction, etc, but you could not level up.
What I want to be able to do while soloing:
Face challenging content that tests my skills to the limit.
Be rewarded for such content (and be rewarded more for hard content than for easy content).
Have a variety of fun and engaging challenges like that, so it isn't just one thing.
Hmm, so I don't think XP is technically require for me to be happy. Frankly, for all the talk about how WoW is solo friendly, I find the solo experience there sucks because it encourages you to do easy content (green quests and mobs) -- hard content just makes everything more difficult for less reward. Also it comes to a dead stop at 80 pretty much (except for dailies which are boringly easy). Anyhow, solo stuff is nice to be able to fall back on when you are too tired to group and still want to relax playing a particular game or when you've had a string of bad luck with grouping and your friends aren't online.
Hmm, one thing about questing in WoW I did like as far as soloing goes is running into other people and spontaneously forming groups (especially if I started it with a Big Damn Heroes moment). The game mechanics actually kind of discouraged joining up like that most of the time, since normal quests were even more boring in a group, but the dynamic of that was fun.
I do think games have tremendously failed lately with making group content challenging AND more rewarding than solo content. I am interested in FFXIV Guild Leve system because I think customizable challenges looks like it should be pretty interesting, to say nothing of choosing the type of activity you are doing in addition to how hard it is (maybe they'll have some interesting escort and other scenarios). Eh, too bad this isn't combined with TOR's "choices with consequences" role-playing.
With regards to the solo/grouping discussion going on, of the five or six tiers of guild-leves (I forget the exact number, I'll go with 5) only one is designed for soloing. Assuming there's some amount of balance between the numbers of each tier that's roughly 4/5 of the game content focussed on group based activities.
I know it's a big assumption to make but it's reassuring at least.
FFXI was my first MMO and I think that is part of the reason it is also my favorite. I too have been looking for an MMO that would capture the feeling of FFXI and I think I will be in luck with FFXIV.. more so than everyone from EQ though I have never played the first EQ so I can't compare. All I'm saying really is... yay for me!
FFXI was my first MMO and I think that is part of the reason it is also my favorite. I too have been looking for an MMO that would capture the feeling of FFXI and I think I will be in luck with FFXIV.. more so than everyone from EQ though I have never played the first EQ so I can't compare. All I'm saying really is... yay for me!
Yep, my friend let me play his Iskar monk, It was fully leveled/geared, and gave this to the hands of a total noob. Never played mmo's , didn't know what mmo's where. But, I had always played video games. I had so much fun in EQ, although the community was like wtf up with this guy, had half ass idea, then gave back his character when I found out XI was coming and was inspired to make a monk for myself.
Ever since EQ1, I've been waiting for a "new" game that captures the vastness, freedom, harshess, beauty, and wonder of that game. In looking at the progression if FF XIV, I am beginning to think that this game will be it.
It won't be the new EQ, the system is too similar to FFIx (or at least what I seen of it so far) but it might sure be interesting. The "new" EQ would have to offer more new ideas and different gameplay. If you tried UO and Meridian and then tried EQ you know what I mean.
But I understand your point, the game do sounds very interesting.
2011 will be a great year for us MMO players, this, GW2, WoDO and TOR all seems interesting in their own way and one of them at least should be great
It won't be the new EQ, the system is too similar to FFIx (or at least what I seen of it so far) but it might sure be interesting. The "new" EQ would have to offer more new ideas and different gameplay. If you tried UO and Meridian and then tried EQ you know what I mean.
But I understand your point, the game do sounds very interesting.
2011 will be a great year for us MMO players, this, GW2, WoDO and TOR all seems interesting in their own way and one of them at least should be great
To be honest, it can be the new EQ for many. FFXI isn't too popular in the west, and I'd take a guess that most MMO players have probably never tried FFXI or only tried it for a short time.
For those with more experience about the predecessor, it will probably be "just" an interesting, enjoyable experience.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Ever since EQ1, I've been waiting for a "new" game that captures the vastness, freedom, harshess, beauty, and wonder of that game. In looking at the progression if FF XIV, I am beginning to think that this game will be it.
It won't be the new EQ, the system is too similar to FFIx (or at least what I seen of it so far) but it might sure be interesting. The "new" EQ would have to offer more new ideas and different gameplay. If you tried UO and Meridian and then tried EQ you know what I mean.
But I understand your point, the game do sounds very interesting.
2011 will be a great year for us MMO players, this, GW2, WoDO and TOR all seems interesting in their own way and one of them at least should be great
The way I see it, even SE openly admit that FFXI was 'heavily infuenced' (ie cloned) from EQ, so saying it is close to one is kinda like saying it is close to the other. They were both considered great games of their time for the same reasons, because in the main they had the same play drivers.
The new EQ dosent have to be revolutionary in the way you suggest imo, it just has to offer a large open world and strong co-op based PvE gameplay while offering the 'polish' that a decade of MMOs has shown us, with an emphasis on community building.
But yeah, I agree with what you say about 2011 for MMOs... god knows we need a good year tho right? heh
As a side note, you might also want to check out Trion's renamed project Rift: Planes of Telara
What it all comes down to is the players. Considering FFXI had the friendliest community I've ever dealt with (although NO ONE is perfect) I'd think FFXIV is shaping up to be THE game. THE game could have been *place your favorite mmorpg here*. Take what you want from it. I knew exactly what the OP was talking about.
That's not true. It DOESN'T come down to the players. How people behave online and in a game depends very, very significantly on the mechanics of the situation. People behave quite different on a well moderated forum, over-moderated forum, and unmoderated forum (and that's just the tip of the forum iceberg). WoW has a crappy community not because it is popular, but because the game doesn't do much to foster community-friendly behaviors (and this has gotten worse with the LFD tool, which is poorly designed from a community perspective).
I think it's a mix of both. The developers provide the tools... but not all the players will use them.
I don't think Blizzard has any intention of fostering a strong sense of community in WoW. If they ever did, they stopped a while ago.
You can not make a game that is so highly soloable *and* maintain a sense of community. It just can't happen. Only 4 MMOs that I've played personally (as in, there's probably others that I haven't) are FFXI, Lineage 2 and, before it went downhill, Matrix Online.
As I see it:
FFXI: it's the sense of working together toward a common cause and having to group up to accomplish so much as well as the fact that most players have one main character throughout their entire time playing, so people come to know you as your character - typically an extension of yourself - first.. then what job you are second. My character is always Shanree, whether I'm a 74 Monk, a 75 DRG or a 23 Paladin.
The need to group up to gain xp brought players together for potentially hours (I've been in parties that went literally all night, rotating out players as necessary) giving people the chance to talk (which has always been the main activity for me; grinding xp was the 'background activity' we happened to be doing; perhaps why I never found leveling in XI to be a grind like others have... but I digress...). From those potentially hours-long xp sessions, I'd typically end up with at least 2 or 3 people on my friends list, and would go on to talk with them, group up when possible, help out with quests, etc.
Lineage 2: It's the PvP-centric gameplay that envelopes dynamic player-driven politics (no pre-set factions), a sense of comraderie and "looking out for your clan-mates or allies". People tend to watch each other's back in L2 for the most part. In L2, when I was being ganked/griefed by someone, it was not unusual to see over half my clan-mates online come to help me out, from where ever they were, what ever they were doing. In WoW, you tell someone you got ganked... for the most part... no one cared, because as soon as your assailant saw support coming, they'd escape to the safety of their faction-controlled areas. In L2 there are no faction-controlled areas, and you're a target anyhere that isn't a town or city.
In L2, it's the sense of competition that tends to bring people together... and while it's an overall more volatile community than FFXI's (everything in L2 seems magnified, perhaps because of the PvP nature of it), it's a strong community regardless.
Matrix Online: Matrix Online had a sense of community that went beyond the grinding and team work. Its community was much more of a social one. Tons of in-game events. A radio station, "Radio Free Zion" would regularly host events in game, across all servers... parties, competitions, etc. etc. It was by far the most active community I've ever seen *outside* of the actual gameplay (quests, grouping, etc). Unfortunately, the game started falling off relatively quickly after launch... and then SOE bought it where it pretty much stagnated until they finally pulled the plug. In its brief "heyday", though Matrix Online ranked #1 for me in terms of community.
Bringing this back to my first statement, though... In any one of those games, even with all those elements in place... thre were still who were vehemently anti-community. Who wanted to log in, be left alone and do their own thing. The only use anyone else had to them was to help them get something they couldn't get on their own; a "necessary evil" if you will. Once they got what they wanted... they were gone. And don't even bother asking them for help... Unless they needed the same thing you did, they weren't interested. Those people are present in all MMOs... some MMOs, however, accomodate them better than others (WoW, LoTRO, etc)
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
What it all comes down to is the players. Considering FFXI had the friendliest community I've ever dealt with (although NO ONE is perfect) I'd think FFXIV is shaping up to be THE game. THE game could have been *place your favorite mmorpg here*. Take what you want from it. I knew exactly what the OP was talking about.
That's not true. It DOESN'T come down to the players. How people behave online and in a game depends very, very significantly on the mechanics of the situation. People behave quite different on a well moderated forum, over-moderated forum, and unmoderated forum (and that's just the tip of the forum iceberg). WoW has a crappy community not because it is popular, but because the game doesn't do much to foster community-friendly behaviors (and this has gotten worse with the LFD tool, which is poorly designed from a community perspective).
I think it's a mix of both. The developers provide the tools... but not all the players will use them.
I don't think Blizzard has any intention of fostering a strong sense of community in WoW. If they ever did, they stopped a while ago.
You can not make a game that is so highly soloable *and* maintain a sense of community. It just can't happen. Only 4 MMOs that I've played personally (as in, there's probably others that I haven't) are FFXI, Lineage 2 and, before it went downhill, Matrix Online
...(I cut out the examples not because I didn't read them, but because I am being space-conscious)
Bringing this back to my first statement, though... In any one of those games, even with all those elements in place... thre were still who were vehemently anti-community. Who wanted to log in, be left alone and do their own thing. The only use anyone else had to them was to help them get something they couldn't get on their own; a "necessary evil" if you will. Once they got what they wanted... they were gone. And don't even bother asking them for help... Unless they needed the same thing you did, they weren't interested. Those people are present in all MMOs... some MMOs, however, accomodate them better than others (WoW, LoTRO, etc)
As you say at the beginning though, the Developers MUST provide the tools. If they don't provide the mechanisms for a good community, then a community won't happen. If those mechanisms are in place and properly designed though, then most people will use them and the community will prosper. Naturally there are alway some loners and that is inevitable, but community isn't about one guy, it is about the aggregate whole.
As for Blizzard, I just don't think they really GET that community is tightly connected to game mechanics. Of course, the exact reasons for this are not clear. Maybe they don't view the community as a Dev problem, so they don't think about it and hence "don't care because it isn't their responsibility." Maybe they just don't care even if they know part of the onus is on the Devs (I find this unlikely, all indications are that they DO care about their game, as almost all devs care about the games they make).
As for soloability. I think whether I agree with you depends on how we define "highly soloable." If you mean that being able to solo to the level cap in any way makes it impossible to have a strong community, then I disagree. Community is about getting people to WANT to interact with each other and I think this can be achieved by making group play more engaging and more rewarding for time spent, generally speaking, AS WELL AS requiring thought and communication to get those rewards (though this is part of being engaging, I admit). Having solo stuff doesn't have to hurt that, but I admit I've seldom seem games with soloing and that also properly encourage grouping. Take WoW as an example, most world stuff is soloable and rather boringly easy in a group (and sometimes extra-grindy). Here a group might get a bit more experience, but they get a lot less fun because nothing is a challenge -- to be fair, WoW encourages you to go after less challenging things, as green quests are easier to get done and so give more reward per time while orange and red quests are very difficult and give little compensation for the time and difficulty required.
Well, I'm hoping for my previous comment to be true:
As far as game mechanics and story, have no fear... SE will deliver.
Until I played the travesty known as FFXIII, I would have agreed with you.
FF has been having a long stretch of trouble with making endings that are sensible. They love tossing in some inexplicable enemy at the end (or even a whole dungeon) that hasn't been hinted at before and often makes little sense. FFIX was the last one I played and it was AWESOME until the end. That said, MMOs nicely avoid this problem for SE since there is no end. From what I understand about FFXI it didn't suffer from this (I played FFXI for half a year or more, but I got tired of taking a couple hours to form a group and then 30 minutes or more to get everyone to the same spot).
Comments
What I want to be able to do while soloing:
Face challenging content that tests my skills to the limit.
Be rewarded for such content (and be rewarded more for hard content than for easy content).
Have a variety of fun and engaging challenges like that, so it isn't just one thing.
Hmm, so I don't think XP is technically require for me to be happy. Frankly, for all the talk about how WoW is solo friendly, I find the solo experience there sucks because it encourages you to do easy content (green quests and mobs) -- hard content just makes everything more difficult for less reward. Also it comes to a dead stop at 80 pretty much (except for dailies which are boringly easy). Anyhow, solo stuff is nice to be able to fall back on when you are too tired to group and still want to relax playing a particular game or when you've had a string of bad luck with grouping and your friends aren't online.
Hmm, one thing about questing in WoW I did like as far as soloing goes is running into other people and spontaneously forming groups (especially if I started it with a Big Damn Heroes moment). The game mechanics actually kind of discouraged joining up like that most of the time, since normal quests were even more boring in a group, but the dynamic of that was fun.
I do think games have tremendously failed lately with making group content challenging AND more rewarding than solo content. I am interested in FFXIV Guild Leve system because I think customizable challenges looks like it should be pretty interesting, to say nothing of choosing the type of activity you are doing in addition to how hard it is (maybe they'll have some interesting escort and other scenarios). Eh, too bad this isn't combined with TOR's "choices with consequences" role-playing.
With regards to the solo/grouping discussion going on, of the five or six tiers of guild-leves (I forget the exact number, I'll go with 5) only one is designed for soloing. Assuming there's some amount of balance between the numbers of each tier that's roughly 4/5 of the game content focussed on group based activities.
I know it's a big assumption to make but it's reassuring at least.
FFXI was my first MMO and I think that is part of the reason it is also my favorite. I too have been looking for an MMO that would capture the feeling of FFXI and I think I will be in luck with FFXIV.. more so than everyone from EQ though I have never played the first EQ so I can't compare. All I'm saying really is... yay for me!
Yep, my friend let me play his Iskar monk, It was fully leveled/geared, and gave this to the hands of a total noob. Never played mmo's , didn't know what mmo's where. But, I had always played video games. I had so much fun in EQ, although the community was like wtf up with this guy, had half ass idea, then gave back his character when I found out XI was coming and was inspired to make a monk for myself.
It won't be the new EQ, the system is too similar to FFIx (or at least what I seen of it so far) but it might sure be interesting. The "new" EQ would have to offer more new ideas and different gameplay. If you tried UO and Meridian and then tried EQ you know what I mean.
But I understand your point, the game do sounds very interesting.
2011 will be a great year for us MMO players, this, GW2, WoDO and TOR all seems interesting in their own way and one of them at least should be great
To be honest, it can be the new EQ for many. FFXI isn't too popular in the west, and I'd take a guess that most MMO players have probably never tried FFXI or only tried it for a short time.
For those with more experience about the predecessor, it will probably be "just" an interesting, enjoyable experience.
The way I see it, even SE openly admit that FFXI was 'heavily infuenced' (ie cloned) from EQ, so saying it is close to one is kinda like saying it is close to the other. They were both considered great games of their time for the same reasons, because in the main they had the same play drivers.
The new EQ dosent have to be revolutionary in the way you suggest imo, it just has to offer a large open world and strong co-op based PvE gameplay while offering the 'polish' that a decade of MMOs has shown us, with an emphasis on community building.
But yeah, I agree with what you say about 2011 for MMOs... god knows we need a good year tho right? heh
As a side note, you might also want to check out Trion's renamed project Rift: Planes of Telara
http://www.riftgame.com/en/
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
As you say at the beginning though, the Developers MUST provide the tools. If they don't provide the mechanisms for a good community, then a community won't happen. If those mechanisms are in place and properly designed though, then most people will use them and the community will prosper. Naturally there are alway some loners and that is inevitable, but community isn't about one guy, it is about the aggregate whole.
As for Blizzard, I just don't think they really GET that community is tightly connected to game mechanics. Of course, the exact reasons for this are not clear. Maybe they don't view the community as a Dev problem, so they don't think about it and hence "don't care because it isn't their responsibility." Maybe they just don't care even if they know part of the onus is on the Devs (I find this unlikely, all indications are that they DO care about their game, as almost all devs care about the games they make).
As for soloability. I think whether I agree with you depends on how we define "highly soloable." If you mean that being able to solo to the level cap in any way makes it impossible to have a strong community, then I disagree. Community is about getting people to WANT to interact with each other and I think this can be achieved by making group play more engaging and more rewarding for time spent, generally speaking, AS WELL AS requiring thought and communication to get those rewards (though this is part of being engaging, I admit). Having solo stuff doesn't have to hurt that, but I admit I've seldom seem games with soloing and that also properly encourage grouping. Take WoW as an example, most world stuff is soloable and rather boringly easy in a group (and sometimes extra-grindy). Here a group might get a bit more experience, but they get a lot less fun because nothing is a challenge -- to be fair, WoW encourages you to go after less challenging things, as green quests are easier to get done and so give more reward per time while orange and red quests are very difficult and give little compensation for the time and difficulty required.
FF has been having a long stretch of trouble with making endings that are sensible. They love tossing in some inexplicable enemy at the end (or even a whole dungeon) that hasn't been hinted at before and often makes little sense. FFIX was the last one I played and it was AWESOME until the end. That said, MMOs nicely avoid this problem for SE since there is no end. From what I understand about FFXI it didn't suffer from this (I played FFXI for half a year or more, but I got tired of taking a couple hours to form a group and then 30 minutes or more to get everyone to the same spot).
XIII's only problem was that it polarized the already divided fanbase.
Nothing wrong with it quality-wise.