EVE online: earn skillpoints over time is the way to go! Then you can do as in EVE train a specific skill over that time, or, train skillpoints in generic, which you can place on skills as you see fit when they are earned!
Niccolado, problem not solved for some. As others have stated, there are people that don't like that it takes a set ammount of time to advance in something, so the person that playes 1 hour advances just as fast as the one that plays for 8 hours.
Suppose I can go either way on this... EVE probably has my favorite skill system in a game to date; probably because the only grind in that game is the grind to make ISK whereas other games who try to implement skill based systems always turn into a skill grind, Darkfall being the example most will relate to.
I think they could have made it work, but it sounds like me that with a price tag of $150M, that wheel was to risky to re-invent.
EVE does the skill-based approach in a unique way that no one else does to my knowledge. Skills take a set amount of time to advance and it will occur no matter if you are online or off. Skills must be researched in order to advance them... it doesn't depend on you performing a certain action over and over again. That right there prevents people from flying their ship into a space-station wall all night while macroing to grind some skill up.
Of course EVE's skill progression mechanics annoy me in other ways. For instance, there is no way someone can advance more quickly than anyone else according to the time or effort they expend in game. Their character will advance at the same speed as everyone else regardless. Unfortunately that pisses me off too. If I spend 8 hours in game working hard at something, I want to progress according to that effort. This can be done in a level-based game and a wacky skill-based game, but not in EVE... which I personally find infuriating.
Again it comes back to level-based games just working better than skill-based ones simply because they avoid these problems.
That is exactly how I feel about Eve too. It avoids the problems of people unfairly raising skills, but it also prevents people from fairly raising skills at different rates. I think it's a good example that shows that there is an audience for skill based systems, but I'm waiting for something a little different.
Eve Online skill based system is not exploitable, that is why you don't like it. If you can't have an advantage over another player besides being smart and choosing skills wisely, you claim it to be a poorly designed system? Uhm, alrighty. Let's not forget, you can grind your heart's content in the economy aspect of the game and outwit your opponent with ISK. Oh, economy based exploitation, aka gold farmer market. I can't wait to see what Star Wars:TOR does to prevent that one.
And if Eve Online is too difficult to swallow, why not a game like Anarchy Online? You gain Levels via XP ( mob kills / quest completion ) and are rewarded with an X amount of skill points to spend as you see fit? Technically there's no exploitation there except for those willing to macro, killing low level mobs.
Level / XP games such as DDO and the soon to be Star Wars:TOR are certainly viable ways to prevent "exploitation" but with it comes a stale class-based model that brings tears to our eyes in terms of individuality. WoW tried to manipulate that problem with 3 different skill trees but we all know how cookie-cutter that game turned out to be.
There is no happy medium, you either go with level based classes which are boring or you go with semi-exploitable skill based systems which open up player choices.
You make an assumption that exploiting is the same as working harder than someone else. If I put in the time, I feel like I should be rewarded. Money is a fine reward, but in Eve, no amount of money will get you the skills to fly a mothership faster than anyone else. Not to mention you can pay real money for ISK.
And the bit about AO; I'm currently playing Fallen Earth which has the same type of system, though that game has it's own unique problems. Again, I like that system, but it's still a level based system with a beginning and an end(game).
I'm not saying I don't like Eve, or that it was a poorly designed system. I just don't like it, personally.
I think there are tons of ways to prevent exploitation in skill games, there just hasn't been enough people willing to try.
Pre-CU SWG had a fine skill-based system, and it worked. I have a buddy who plays Darkfall, and it's sad to watch him "level up." He has Darkfall installed where we work, and he's done things like auto-run into a wall, shoot arrows into a wall, etc. He just macros it and goes back to work. How is that, in any regard, fun at all? How is that, in any regard, a way of rewarding a player for effort? There's no effort at all.
Sorry Tao.. I was there on Day 1 for SWG, and the skill based system was a great concept, but it was far from perfect.. so much so, that it lead to the CU patch, which opened a whole new can of worms.. LOL As for the macro'ing.. OMG, I think SWG was the KING of macro-botting.. 50% of the player base was AFK botting.. It was horrid.. I prefer distictive classes, because when you go to skill based, it's just a matter of time that every DPS is using the same template, and ever TANK is using the same template.. etc etc..
Same here, can't see how someone could use SWG as an argument against the OP. It's skill system was decent sure, but macroing was rampant within it. Tumbling, spot camping, etc..... Was all done on a macro, hell you could loot whore with macros in galaxies, as most used to do in Nyax's bunker. Half the players I came across in galaxies were AFK macroing.
You're also right about FOTM templates.
Take out Macros then........ FFS people use your brains!
So Bioware's mmo will require less skill to play because skill based level can be exploited. Where do I sign up ? I mean , why would I want players to be able to exploit the game for their own personal gain. To make it simple, Bioware is trying to make sure the integrity of the game does not get abused. I don't see what the problem is ? Maybe some who are complaining are already whining because they can't use hacks and 3rd party software to manipulate the game.
Niccolado, problem not solved for some. As others have stated, there are people that don't like that it takes a set ammount of time to advance in something, so the person that playes 1 hour advances just as fast as the one that plays for 8 hours.
Even I know that a huge part of advancement in EvE is money-based. That certainly does reward playing time.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Agreed! Poor skill systems create unrealistic situations. But let me ask you this, if you wanted to learn how to fall properly in real life, how would you go about doing it?
Would you:
A) Grab a floor mat (or maybe not) and practice falling?
or would you:
Go watch TV and eat a sandwitch and learn it automatically?
The skill system is the more realistic out of the two. Just like in real life, you learn by practicing. Poorly thought out skill systems create unrealistic situations.
Well, I think that both lvl based and skill based systems have the same problem. I think it just gets worse when there is a macro system in the game like mentioned in SWG. But even without macros, there is always a player who finds some unintended shortcut in characterprogression, no matter what progression system is used. So I prefer it that a developer focusses on fun intended progression, instead of focussing on preventing any loopholes in its system.
Still, I prefer both systems over the skillsystem in EVE for example. Ive never experienced such a passive character progression. It doesnt matter if you play 5 minutes a day or the whole day, your skill progression is the same. Its the main flaw I see in EVE, because it makes characterprogression just a waiting game. (I do like EVE for other things, though).
So, $150 million budget, big team of people working on it, etc and their argument for doing the typical class & level system we see in almsot every MMO is basically... we dont want to put the time and effort in to make it work with any other system, so we're sticking with the easy route. Im starting to lose faith that this game is going to be anything even remotely groundbreaking and/or original. I had some hope for the game, not much, but a fairly good amount, but this doesnt sound appealing. I was really hoping they could come up with something unique for skills & leveling. Announcing that theyre taking the easiest route possible with this kind of worries me that theyre going to make that same decision in almost every situation, rather than realizing that putting in that extra work could really pay off and set the game apart, rather than being another clone set in the Star Wars universe. Might still give the game a shot depending onwhat else they do, but the more i seee & hear, the more im planning on dropping this game and just worrying about GW2. Hopefully Bioware steps their game up in some other areas.
Story seems to be the new in thing, though if we go back to the Alargon (sp) article about him ripping off ToR and then claiming EQ2 was pushing the same idea it goes all the way back to 2004. But at least since WAR who pushed RvR, most the big MMO's coming out soon/lately FFXIV, Rise of the Godslayer, Secret World etc have all pushed the story angle. Maybe not as much as ToR but they are all claiming to be bringing this to the MMO world. So this doesn't seem to be as much of a big thing as Bioware and EA are making with ToR.
And now it looks like the leveling isn't going to push the envolpe too much in terms of game mechanics. Its no SWG's pre-cu or fallen earth skill/level based system. And it looks unlikely that they are looking to push the boat out too much in any particular way, while information is painfully rare. What we have ideas on such as class and community and instancing is that there is nothing you haven't seen before. The auction house will likely be familar to anyone thats played MMO's and fast travel will be very similar as well etc etc. We are also unlikely to see a Jump to Lightspeed space combat aspect to the game, routing ToR firmly in the fantasy market of MMO's.
Now this isn't a problem and I'm betting the game is going to be a lot of fun. It will make EA bucket loads of cash and be praised by fans. But what I don't think it will do is offer anything new and I doubt the investors want any chances to be taken, I suspect they have been told you will play it safe and you will make something that the 11 million (probably vastly inflated) number of WoW players are happy with and not something the 300,000 EvE players want. Or something along those lines, and I suspect anyone that plays ToR will be blown away for a good few months. Though with a 2011 launch date, I would be less sure of the longevity of the game, as I suspect there are a number of very impressive titles coming out later that year or following. Warhammer 40K, World of Darkness, Fallout, Elder scrolls and secret world off the top of my head. And as we move into 2012 I would be surprised if we don't see a change in the game world, whether more realistic and not so stylised graphics or leveling or even game play. And then story and vo may not be enough to make ToR the game to play as players have completed the story and then find a very standard MMO which doesn't compare with the new generation of MMO.
I absolutely think the benefits WAY outweigh the "destupidization" cost in money and hours. Just as Damon can "off the cuff" throw out examples against skill-based it has been done countless times for level-based here on this site and on many others.
Ultimately a skill based system offers more flexibility than a level-based. Level-based just presents less of a challenge and is less thought provoking than skill-based which is why many developers go with it.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
A lot of the confusion here is that we talk about two kinds of natural progression in games.
One has to do with the game mechanics of progression through leveling.
One has to do with the perception of character development through the mastery of skills.
Class/XP based systems cover the game mechanics of progression, but often leave people feeling like there is no customization to their character, and therefore no authentic character development.
Skill based systems (and I'm sure the original discussion started with SWG's multiple skill trees) allow for a lot of character customization, and *feel* like the way that real people, or "real" fictional heroes, learn skills. So the reasons for favoring skill based systems are not on the basis of simple mechanics, but on the internal experience of the individual hero's journey in the game.
And, as people have mentioned, people will game class/XP based systems in silly ways just as much as skill based systems.
If you're a dev, class/xp is probably easier to implement and more acceptable as a learning curve for UX.
But skill based systems are equally valid, and preferred by many players.
b) The idea to gain skills by practice, as in UO or Darkfall or Oblivion is in current MMORGPS a very tiny portion of MMOs. I don't think many had that on their wish lists for TOR.
c) Seperate from gaining skill by doing (as in Oblivion) is a skill based system as in SWG. In SWG you got XP as in any MMO but you got skill points to spent instead of classes, and as far as I see that topic wasn't even touched.
Personally I see both have advantages and disadvantages. I have no given preferrence, but judge it as I see it in the specific case. My experiences with skill based systems have not been so great so far, though. Taking for example Champions I saw it gives a ton of crappy combinations and some very uber ones, and I think especially in PVP settings they are almost impossible to balance. In SWG in the old days there were always some much stronger to others, and not everyone wants to make a FOFTM setup. If classes allow many choices I think that is good enough for me.
Hooray! Here we have another moronic developer looking for reasons NOT to innovate. You sir, suck. Hopefully soon they will make pills that force innovation on you. Until then, you will suck.
Hooray! Here we have another moronic developer looking for reasons NOT to innovate. You sir, suck. Hopefully soon they will make pills that force innovation on you. Until then, you will suck.
Why should anyone change a thing he isn't convinced in just for the sake of innovation? I find that not convincing.
So killing 99,000 of the same mob is a better solution? Sorry, but his comments were a truely a rofl experience.
This does not bode well if this guy has significant say in the Bioware design. I don't think I have read a more clueless respsonse lately!
I don't think you and him are on the same page here, he was more along the lines of saying the pitfalls of skill based games... and was reinforcing his stance on quest based progression. Where did you get that he wanted you to grind 99K of the same mobs as a solution to anything?
So this "lead dev" doesn't think skill based is worthy of his time.
Tough titty.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
This and his obvious lack of an ability to think creativly is pretty much the only thing I got out of this. Just another person in charge of making a game that is beyond them.
Star Wars Galaxies Pre-CU Skill System is always going to be better than the Norm Class - 2-3 sub class system.
Darkfall failed by not allowing a hard cap, and some easy exploits in the beginning. Also making it into a korean grinder.
I will probably still try this game out, just because it is a Star Wars game, and I am a nerd of SW, but I so wanted bioware to make a sandbox SW instead of this WoWlike we have now, in fact it even looks even more instanced than WOW, which is just bad in many ways IMO got a subscription fee game.
SWG you could macro entertainer skills and crafter skills, combat skills not so much. It didn't effect balancing nearly as bad as in Darkfall, where even the stupidest BS skill like swimming and running helps increase your attributes. In SWG, who cared if so and so macro'd their dancer to max level? In crafting leveling to master level was the easy part, the hard part was saving up the best quality materials and aquiring skill tapes to make the best quality items.
Just what I was thinking. Look at how other games handle skill based progression and you can clearly see there are a myriad of ways to do this without needing to worry about AFK skill point gaining exploiting like you find in games like Darkfall. Look at how it is done in Asheron's Call for example or even the single player game Mount and Blade. You gain experience and that experience is turned into points that can be used to level skills. Even Eve's skill based system could easily be looked at as a way to handle this issue the developer seems to have with skill based leveling.
It is as the poster I quoted stated - lazy developer.
Star Wars: The Old Republic lead combat designer Damion Schubert made the case against the use of skill-based leveling in TOR in a recent post to the game's official forums.
Damion Schubert responding to a member of the community opining that skill-based leveling systems are more natural and offer more freedom:
One of my great pet peeves of pure skill-based systems is that they claim that they are more realistic, but they in fact can create extremely unrealistic situations inside the world.
In the original Everquest, it was not uncommon to see a player throwing himself off a cliff over and over again to improve his safe falling skill, or to see a person macroing some random text gibberish in order to improve his languages. In Meridian 59, players used to park themselves in front of low level monsters and leave the keyboard - they were unlikely to die, and could accumulate defense points in a slow, steady and totally risk-free manor. In Oblivion, the best way to build an assassin character is to hop through fields picking flowers. Jumping improves your Acrobatics (I believe), and the player needs enough flowers to grind up his Poisoning skill.
Sure, each of these could be destupidified with enough designer/programmer time and focus, but then you're coding, QAing and exploit-proofing a different advancement mechanism for every skill in the game. And you'll probably still end up with some silliness somewhere.
Damion's Oblivion example is both hilarious and sad, and something I've heard before. Indeed, I myself participated in a number of stupid behaviors leveling things up in Oblivion.
So my question to you all is: Keeping in mind that development is generally a delicate balancing act of manpower, do you think the benefits of such a system outweigh the massive "destupification" that would be required to try and keep the goofiness of it out?
Each of these activities makes sense from the perspective of the real world.
Jumping off a cliff: This is exaggerated in a game, of course, but you must first begin by jumping off of rocks and then you eventually move to "cliffs". If you're going to practice something physical then you need to actually practice the physical activity. When it comes to cliffs I'd prefer there to be a great deal of padding and other precautions, but it's a game, not the real world, and an old game at that. The mechanics are expected to be simple. With that said, they certainly have had time to improve the mechanics and perhaps they should.
Other languages: Clearly this dev has never tried to learn a second language in any significant way. The way that EQ handled it was necessarily simplified, but you learn a second language by using it and constantly practicing it. This means repeating sentences, particularly in languages where there are only subtle differences in the sound between two words or "letters".
Meridian 59 & low level mobs: Again with practicing the actual skill. When you study karate what do yo do? Kata and kumite mixed with hands on time with your instructors and / or your sempai. Why? Because it's safer (though injuries do still occur, as my once-cracked rib can certainly attest to) and in addition to being safer than an all out fight you learn techniques, applications of those techniques, and pick up some martial experience. Why do something dangerous (fight high level mobs / get into real fights) when the safer approach (low level mobs / dojo practice) is still quite effective?
The Oblivion reference... yeah that was kind of dumb. I have to give him that. Practical, but dumb.
I stopped reading about this game for awhile after a previous developer blog showed a distinct lack of ethics, and this is what I find when I come back to read about it again. Seems like each time that one of their developers opens their mouth they promptly stuff both feet in.
Their approach sounds lazy to me. They don't want to put the time and effort (QA, testing, and other bits that he named) into a decent system, so they're going the quick & simple route and laying out justifications for it. Shame on you, Bioware.
But hey maybe I've grown biased against this game.
Anyway it's storming here so I'm not going to proof read this and risk a power failure before I post, though I suppose I should have used Word.... Later.
Comments
EVE online: earn skillpoints over time is the way to go! Then you can do as in EVE train a specific skill over that time, or, train skillpoints in generic, which you can place on skills as you see fit when they are earned!
Stupidification problem solved!
Niccolado, problem not solved for some. As others have stated, there are people that don't like that it takes a set ammount of time to advance in something, so the person that playes 1 hour advances just as fast as the one that plays for 8 hours.
You make an assumption that exploiting is the same as working harder than someone else. If I put in the time, I feel like I should be rewarded. Money is a fine reward, but in Eve, no amount of money will get you the skills to fly a mothership faster than anyone else. Not to mention you can pay real money for ISK.
And the bit about AO; I'm currently playing Fallen Earth which has the same type of system, though that game has it's own unique problems. Again, I like that system, but it's still a level based system with a beginning and an end(game).
I'm not saying I don't like Eve, or that it was a poorly designed system. I just don't like it, personally.
I think there are tons of ways to prevent exploitation in skill games, there just hasn't been enough people willing to try.
Take out Macros then........ FFS people use your brains!
So Bioware's mmo will require less skill to play because skill based level can be exploited. Where do I sign up ? I mean , why would I want players to be able to exploit the game for their own personal gain. To make it simple, Bioware is trying to make sure the integrity of the game does not get abused. I don't see what the problem is ? Maybe some who are complaining are already whining because they can't use hacks and 3rd party software to manipulate the game.
Even I know that a huge part of advancement in EvE is money-based. That certainly does reward playing time.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Agreed! Poor skill systems create unrealistic situations. But let me ask you this, if you wanted to learn how to fall properly in real life, how would you go about doing it?
Would you:
A) Grab a floor mat (or maybe not) and practice falling?
or would you:
The skill system is the more realistic out of the two. Just like in real life, you learn by practicing. Poorly thought out skill systems create unrealistic situations.
Well, I think that both lvl based and skill based systems have the same problem. I think it just gets worse when there is a macro system in the game like mentioned in SWG. But even without macros, there is always a player who finds some unintended shortcut in characterprogression, no matter what progression system is used. So I prefer it that a developer focusses on fun intended progression, instead of focussing on preventing any loopholes in its system.
Still, I prefer both systems over the skillsystem in EVE for example. Ive never experienced such a passive character progression. It doesnt matter if you play 5 minutes a day or the whole day, your skill progression is the same. Its the main flaw I see in EVE, because it makes characterprogression just a waiting game. (I do like EVE for other things, though).
So, $150 million budget, big team of people working on it, etc and their argument for doing the typical class & level system we see in almsot every MMO is basically... we dont want to put the time and effort in to make it work with any other system, so we're sticking with the easy route. Im starting to lose faith that this game is going to be anything even remotely groundbreaking and/or original. I had some hope for the game, not much, but a fairly good amount, but this doesnt sound appealing. I was really hoping they could come up with something unique for skills & leveling. Announcing that theyre taking the easiest route possible with this kind of worries me that theyre going to make that same decision in almost every situation, rather than realizing that putting in that extra work could really pay off and set the game apart, rather than being another clone set in the Star Wars universe. Might still give the game a shot depending onwhat else they do, but the more i seee & hear, the more im planning on dropping this game and just worrying about GW2. Hopefully Bioware steps their game up in some other areas.
Story seems to be the new in thing, though if we go back to the Alargon (sp) article about him ripping off ToR and then claiming EQ2 was pushing the same idea it goes all the way back to 2004. But at least since WAR who pushed RvR, most the big MMO's coming out soon/lately FFXIV, Rise of the Godslayer, Secret World etc have all pushed the story angle. Maybe not as much as ToR but they are all claiming to be bringing this to the MMO world. So this doesn't seem to be as much of a big thing as Bioware and EA are making with ToR.
And now it looks like the leveling isn't going to push the envolpe too much in terms of game mechanics. Its no SWG's pre-cu or fallen earth skill/level based system. And it looks unlikely that they are looking to push the boat out too much in any particular way, while information is painfully rare. What we have ideas on such as class and community and instancing is that there is nothing you haven't seen before. The auction house will likely be familar to anyone thats played MMO's and fast travel will be very similar as well etc etc. We are also unlikely to see a Jump to Lightspeed space combat aspect to the game, routing ToR firmly in the fantasy market of MMO's.
Now this isn't a problem and I'm betting the game is going to be a lot of fun. It will make EA bucket loads of cash and be praised by fans. But what I don't think it will do is offer anything new and I doubt the investors want any chances to be taken, I suspect they have been told you will play it safe and you will make something that the 11 million (probably vastly inflated) number of WoW players are happy with and not something the 300,000 EvE players want. Or something along those lines, and I suspect anyone that plays ToR will be blown away for a good few months. Though with a 2011 launch date, I would be less sure of the longevity of the game, as I suspect there are a number of very impressive titles coming out later that year or following. Warhammer 40K, World of Darkness, Fallout, Elder scrolls and secret world off the top of my head. And as we move into 2012 I would be surprised if we don't see a change in the game world, whether more realistic and not so stylised graphics or leveling or even game play. And then story and vo may not be enough to make ToR the game to play as players have completed the story and then find a very standard MMO which doesn't compare with the new generation of MMO.
I absolutely think the benefits WAY outweigh the "destupidization" cost in money and hours. Just as Damon can "off the cuff" throw out examples against skill-based it has been done countless times for level-based here on this site and on many others.
Ultimately a skill based system offers more flexibility than a level-based. Level-based just presents less of a challenge and is less thought provoking than skill-based which is why many developers go with it.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
A lot of the confusion here is that we talk about two kinds of natural progression in games.
One has to do with the game mechanics of progression through leveling.
One has to do with the perception of character development through the mastery of skills.
Class/XP based systems cover the game mechanics of progression, but often leave people feeling like there is no customization to their character, and therefore no authentic character development.
Skill based systems (and I'm sure the original discussion started with SWG's multiple skill trees) allow for a lot of character customization, and *feel* like the way that real people, or "real" fictional heroes, learn skills. So the reasons for favoring skill based systems are not on the basis of simple mechanics, but on the internal experience of the individual hero's journey in the game.
And, as people have mentioned, people will game class/XP based systems in silly ways just as much as skill based systems.
If you're a dev, class/xp is probably easier to implement and more acceptable as a learning curve for UX.
But skill based systems are equally valid, and preferred by many players.
Shava
I don't know what the fuzz here is about.
a) We all knew already TOR is a class based game.
b) The idea to gain skills by practice, as in UO or Darkfall or Oblivion is in current MMORGPS a very tiny portion of MMOs. I don't think many had that on their wish lists for TOR.
c) Seperate from gaining skill by doing (as in Oblivion) is a skill based system as in SWG. In SWG you got XP as in any MMO but you got skill points to spent instead of classes, and as far as I see that topic wasn't even touched.
Personally I see both have advantages and disadvantages. I have no given preferrence, but judge it as I see it in the specific case. My experiences with skill based systems have not been so great so far, though. Taking for example Champions I saw it gives a ton of crappy combinations and some very uber ones, and I think especially in PVP settings they are almost impossible to balance. In SWG in the old days there were always some much stronger to others, and not everyone wants to make a FOFTM setup. If classes allow many choices I think that is good enough for me.
Hooray! Here we have another moronic developer looking for reasons NOT to innovate. You sir, suck. Hopefully soon they will make pills that force innovation on you. Until then, you will suck.
Why should anyone change a thing he isn't convinced in just for the sake of innovation? I find that not convincing.
What a fruitcake!
So killing 99,000 of the same mob is a better solution? Sorry, but his comments were a truely a rofl experience.
This does not bode well if this guy has significant say in the Bioware design. I don't think I have read a more clueless respsonse lately!
I don't think you and him are on the same page here, he was more along the lines of saying the pitfalls of skill based games... and was reinforcing his stance on quest based progression. Where did you get that he wanted you to grind 99K of the same mobs as a solution to anything?
It's better than hitting a tree 99,000 times.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
QFT
So this "lead dev" doesn't think skill based is worthy of his time.
Tough titty.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
Just because a nobody on the Internet made a list, doesn't make the things on that list true.
And running the same dungeon 150 times isnt annoying?
SWG you could macro entertainer skills and crafter skills, combat skills not so much. It didn't effect balancing nearly as bad as in Darkfall, where even the stupidest BS skill like swimming and running helps increase your attributes. In SWG, who cared if so and so macro'd their dancer to max level? In crafting leveling to master level was the easy part, the hard part was saving up the best quality materials and aquiring skill tapes to make the best quality items.
Just what I was thinking. Look at how other games handle skill based progression and you can clearly see there are a myriad of ways to do this without needing to worry about AFK skill point gaining exploiting like you find in games like Darkfall. Look at how it is done in Asheron's Call for example or even the single player game Mount and Blade. You gain experience and that experience is turned into points that can be used to level skills. Even Eve's skill based system could easily be looked at as a way to handle this issue the developer seems to have with skill based leveling.
It is as the poster I quoted stated - lazy developer.
Each of these activities makes sense from the perspective of the real world.
Jumping off a cliff: This is exaggerated in a game, of course, but you must first begin by jumping off of rocks and then you eventually move to "cliffs". If you're going to practice something physical then you need to actually practice the physical activity. When it comes to cliffs I'd prefer there to be a great deal of padding and other precautions, but it's a game, not the real world, and an old game at that. The mechanics are expected to be simple. With that said, they certainly have had time to improve the mechanics and perhaps they should.
Other languages: Clearly this dev has never tried to learn a second language in any significant way. The way that EQ handled it was necessarily simplified, but you learn a second language by using it and constantly practicing it. This means repeating sentences, particularly in languages where there are only subtle differences in the sound between two words or "letters".
Meridian 59 & low level mobs: Again with practicing the actual skill. When you study karate what do yo do? Kata and kumite mixed with hands on time with your instructors and / or your sempai. Why? Because it's safer (though injuries do still occur, as my once-cracked rib can certainly attest to) and in addition to being safer than an all out fight you learn techniques, applications of those techniques, and pick up some martial experience. Why do something dangerous (fight high level mobs / get into real fights) when the safer approach (low level mobs / dojo practice) is still quite effective?
The Oblivion reference... yeah that was kind of dumb. I have to give him that. Practical, but dumb.
I stopped reading about this game for awhile after a previous developer blog showed a distinct lack of ethics, and this is what I find when I come back to read about it again. Seems like each time that one of their developers opens their mouth they promptly stuff both feet in.
Their approach sounds lazy to me. They don't want to put the time and effort (QA, testing, and other bits that he named) into a decent system, so they're going the quick & simple route and laying out justifications for it. Shame on you, Bioware.
But hey maybe I've grown biased against this game.
Anyway it's storming here so I'm not going to proof read this and risk a power failure before I post, though I suppose I should have used Word.... Later.