Like it or not the changes to the MMO market have been customer driven. Modern MMO’s are targeted to more casual players because more casual players are who makes up the bulk of the paying customer base. The people who frequent this forum are not a good example of the typical MMO player. The high development costs of a modern MMO means that the features the OP misses in older MMO’s would be suicide to implement today in a high budget MMO. There are just not enough people who would play that game to justify the development costs. Sure a MMO where you procedurally generate star systems and most your modeling work is ships can be developed and supported using those kinds of systems but not a graphically intense high fantasy MMO.
A changing player demographic and exponentially increasing development costs killed the MMO’s you miss not laziness or some conspiracy by studios.
You are uttering the truths that The Nostalgia crowd tend to ignore. A good freind of mine who is a project manager for Simutronics spent the better part of 2008 and 2009 researching why Old school EQ and UO paradigms no longer work today, and his team basically came to the same conclusion. The majority of customers drive the market, and theer is just no demand to go back to what many gamers consider the stone age.
What?!? logic and reasoning from not one but TWO posters on MMORPG.com?
jotull, udon, if I could report you both for defying the MMORPG.com conventions of "retardation and idiocy" then I would!
How DARE you make such logical and intellectually stimulating arguments on a web forum!
First there is clearly a demand for an old school MMO. Your right , not in the numbers like WOW has but there is a demand. Your "friend" and his team did a very poor job of research if they came to the conclusion that their is no demand.
Second, sure the Majority of the market are casual gamers and they have a ton of games to choose from. Us gamers that want more depth, more challenge do not have many choices and most of our choices are over 10 years old.
Logical and interllectually stimulating arguments these are not because again they both failed to mention that there IS A MARKET FOR AN OLD SCHOOL GAME. Not a large market but enough of a market to develop a game.
Basicly all 3 of you need to learn the difference between no demand and a small demand. Again your friend and his research team sucks at their job if they came to that conlusion.
I will help you a little if you can use logic and reasoning like you say you can.
Most of the driving population cannot afford lamborghini but they are still made and sold each year because their is a small market for them.
Do you understand? Do you get that your logic and reasoning is wrong. That your "friend" and his team do not know how to research? Its not hard to understand their is amarket for a new old school MMO but because it will not draw the large numbers like WoW, companies do not make them because they think they can get WOW numbers.
I have to wonder what the OP thinks of Darkfall. Playing during EU launch is pretty far from how it is today but the reason I ask is because I felt the same way about MMOs and have been looking for that nostalgic old-school feel where dying actually matters and nobody holds your hand and everything that he has mentioned. I was disappointed in the same games mentioned but the OP left out Darkfall.
What do you think of it?
For me, it is the hidden gem that I have been looking for . .. feels like a company is finally getting it right (although they catch onto some things a little slow). If you liked pretrammel UO, running around looking for PVP in DAOC, skill growth in AC, etc. than you should give Darkfall a chance. That's Darkfall not Darkfail! Gameplay is fun as hell, totally unpredicible, and remains very challenging no matter how long you play it.
#1 problem that people complain about is the grind and it has been reduced by 6 times since I started and will be made even easier for the casual player (like me) with the next couple patches. The other issues, like cheats & exploiting, has reduced dramatically. Also AFK skill gains are not going to last long . .. theyve stopped most macroing and are promising a fix coming soon to the other ways of AFK skill gain. Prestige Classes are being introduced this year for more diversity.
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
First there is clearly a demand for an old school MMO. Your right , not in the numbers like WOW has but there is a demand.
Second, sure the Majority of the market are casual gamers and they have a ton of games to choose from. Us gamers that want more depth, more challenge do not have many choices and most of our choices are over 10 years old.
Logical and interllectually stimulating arguments these are not because again they both failed to mention that there IS A MARKET FOR AN OLD SCHOOL GAME. Not a large market but enough of a market to develop a game.
Its not hard to understand their is amarket for a new old school MMO but because it will not draw the large numbers
Oh silly...
You know how much $ it takes to make a quality MMO? Like, one that actually works and isn't a joke? More money then is worth investing on such a small demographic. Heck, many big budget MMOs STILL fail cause they fail to capture the larger demographics.
You are right, there IS a demand for such a MMO.
And guess what? You've had THREE yes 3 games made in the past 3-4 years! Well if you count Vanguard 4!
Darkfall, Mortal Online, Vanguard, Earthrise.
How well have those faired?
You won't find a AAA high budget MMO it's just too bad. You are right, there is a market for an old school game. But NOT a big enough market to justify spending AAA budgets on.
It's already been proven. Four times. Think I'm wrong?
If there was this magical market you speak of for an old school game... we'd have more old school games then the 4 above mentioned. And there are TWO that are currently active and quite popular. EvE and FFXI.
You know how much it takes to make a quality MMO? Like, one that actually works and isn't a joke? More money then is worth investing on such a small demographic.
You are right, there IS a demand for such a MMO.
And guess what? You've had THREE yes 3 games made in the past 3-4 years! Well if you count Vanguard 4!
Darkfall, Mortal Online, Vanguard, Earthrise.
How well have those faired?
You won't a AAA high budget MMO it's just too bad. You are right, there is a market for an old school game. But NOT a big enough market to justify spending AAA budgets on.
It's already been proven. Four times.
MO hasn't launched yet, Earthrise is still in development, and Vanguard launched way before it was ready and was a total mess.
Darkfall is still an unknown for the time being. Yes the population is small, but we still have to take a wait and see approach.
So ya, not following you there bud.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Things don't change until they fail financially. All you can do is vote with your wallet.
You're missing the second half to this equation. The existing paradigm must fail financially while another paradigm succeds, otherwise the industry will just beat the dead horse with the e-stick and wonder why it isn't working right.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
You know how much it takes to make a quality MMO? Like, one that actually works and isn't a joke? More money then is worth investing on such a small demographic.
You are right, there IS a demand for such a MMO.
And guess what? You've had THREE yes 3 games made in the past 3-4 years! Well if you count Vanguard 4!
Darkfall, Mortal Online, Vanguard, Earthrise.
How well have those faired?
You won't a AAA high budget MMO it's just too bad. You are right, there is a market for an old school game. But NOT a big enough market to justify spending AAA budgets on.
It's already been proven. Four times.
MO hasn't launched yet, Earthrise is still in development, and Vanguard launched way before it was ready and was a total mess.
Darkfall is still an unknown for the time being. Yes the population is small, but we still have to take a wait and see approach.
Do you know why? Do you know why VG launched before it was ready and the DF population is small? Do you know why ER and MO haven't launched yet and don't look all too promising outside their niche audiences?
First there is clearly a demand for an old school MMO. Your right , not in the numbers like WOW has but there is a demand.
Second, sure the Majority of the market are casual gamers and they have a ton of games to choose from. Us gamers that want more depth, more challenge do not have many choices and most of our choices are over 10 years old.
Logical and interllectually stimulating arguments these are not because again they both failed to mention that there IS A MARKET FOR AN OLD SCHOOL GAME. Not a large market but enough of a market to develop a game.
Its not hard to understand their is amarket for a new old school MMO but because it will not draw the large numbers
Oh silly...
You know how much $ it takes to make a quality MMO? Like, one that actually works and isn't a joke? More money then is worth investing on such a small demographic. Heck, many big budget MMOs STILL fail cause they fail to capture the larger demographics.
You are right, there IS a demand for such a MMO.
And guess what? You've had THREE yes 3 games made in the past 3-4 years! Well if you count Vanguard 4!
Darkfall, Mortal Online, Vanguard, Earthrise.
How well have those faired?
You won't find a AAA high budget MMO it's just too bad. You are right, there is a market for an old school game. But NOT a big enough market to justify spending AAA budgets on.
It's already been proven. Four times. Think I'm wrong?
If there was this magical market you speak of for an old school game... we'd have more old school games then the 4 above mentioned. And there are TWO that are currently active and quite popular. EvE and FFXI.
So that's 6.... not enough options for you?
EvE is in space, not my cup of tea. -1
Darkfall and Mortal Online are all about PvP, not my cup of tea - 2
Earthrise is a sci fi game, not my cup of tea -1
Vanguard was rushed and was never finished due to bad management so that does not count -1
FFXI is fun but I rather play EQ1 which is what I am playing currently.
6 - 4 = 2. 2 choices for gamers like myself and both are over 10 years old. Yea alot of choice there. thanks for playing but you fail.
Darkfall and Mortal Online are all about PvP, not my cup of tea - 2
Earthrise is a sci fi game, not my cup of tea -1
Vanguard was rushed and was never finished due to bad management so that does not count -1
FFXI is fun but I rather play EQ1 which is what I am playing currently.
6 - 4 = 2. 2 choices for gamers like myself and both are over 10 years old. Yea alot of choice there. thanks for playing but you fail.
You realize that it's YOU that is eliminating choices from yourself based on your preferences and likes / dislikes not some grand scheme by MMORPG companies?
Right?
I could take a list of the top 6 new-school MMORPG's and tell you why I am not playing them just as easily.
It's not like they aren't designing and coming out with new old school MMORPG's all the time, it's that you and others just don't like them for whatever reason.
You know how much it takes to make a quality MMO? Like, one that actually works and isn't a joke? More money then is worth investing on such a small demographic.
You are right, there IS a demand for such a MMO.
And guess what? You've had THREE yes 3 games made in the past 3-4 years! Well if you count Vanguard 4!
Darkfall, Mortal Online, Vanguard, Earthrise.
How well have those faired?
You won't a AAA high budget MMO it's just too bad. You are right, there is a market for an old school game. But NOT a big enough market to justify spending AAA budgets on.
It's already been proven. Four times.
MO hasn't launched yet, Earthrise is still in development, and Vanguard launched way before it was ready and was a total mess.
Darkfall is still an unknown for the time being. Yes the population is small, but we still have to take a wait and see approach.
Do you know why? Do you know why VG launched before it was ready and the DF population is small? Do you know why ER and MO haven't launched yet and don't look all too promising outside their niche audiences?
Yea the same reasons that WAR, AoC and all the other current theme park games are not doing well. Poorly made, rushed to released games. It has nothing to do with how many players the small niche audience has, it has to do with the quility of the product.
First there is clearly a demand for an old school MMO. Your right , not in the numbers like WOW has but there is a demand.
Second, sure the Majority of the market are casual gamers and they have a ton of games to choose from. Us gamers that want more depth, more challenge do not have many choices and most of our choices are over 10 years old.
Logical and interllectually stimulating arguments these are not because again they both failed to mention that there IS A MARKET FOR AN OLD SCHOOL GAME. Not a large market but enough of a market to develop a game.
Its not hard to understand their is amarket for a new old school MMO but because it will not draw the large numbers
Oh silly...
You know how much $ it takes to make a quality MMO? Like, one that actually works and isn't a joke? More money then is worth investing on such a small demographic. Heck, many big budget MMOs STILL fail cause they fail to capture the larger demographics.
You are right, there IS a demand for such a MMO.
And guess what? You've had THREE yes 3 games made in the past 3-4 years! Well if you count Vanguard 4!
Darkfall, Mortal Online, Vanguard, Earthrise.
How well have those faired?
You won't find a AAA high budget MMO it's just too bad. You are right, there is a market for an old school game. But NOT a big enough market to justify spending AAA budgets on.
It's already been proven. Four times. Think I'm wrong?
If there was this magical market you speak of for an old school game... we'd have more old school games then the 4 above mentioned. And there are TWO that are currently active and quite popular. EvE and FFXI.
So that's 6.... not enough options for you?
EvE is in space, not my cup of tea. -1
Darkfall and Mortal Online are all about PvP, not my cup of tea - 2
Earthrise is a sci fi game, not my cup of tea -1
Vanguard was rushed and was never finished due to bad management so that does not count -1
FFXI is fun but I rather play EQ1 which is what I am playing currently.
6 - 4 = 2. 2 choices for gamers like myself and both are over 10 years old. Yea alot of choice there. thanks for playing but you fail.
Doubt you'll ever see a sandbox game that doesn't become mostly PVP oriented anymore; you can thank the FPS crowd for that.. You'll recognize them ingame when you see them xxLOLITBAGUxx and the like, they are all over the place and IMO are the ones mostly responsible for the current state of MMO's.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
Yea the same reasons that WAR, AoC and all the other current theme park games are not doing well. Poorly made, rushed to released games.
Exactly you are on the right track.
Now, what made all these games poor quality and what made them rush to release?
MONEY!
And guess where money comes from?
INVESTORS AND PUBLISHERS!
And do you know what publishers and investors do?
They care about the return on their investment.
And do you know how they figure out if they'll get a return on their investment?
BY ANALYZING MARKET DEMOGRAPHICS!
Games like WAR made the fundamental mistake of offering someone who loves apples a dirty new apple with worms in it when that same person who loves apples already has a nice, clean shiny apple in their hand. "No thanks, I'll keep this one" they say.
Darkfall and Mortal Online are all about PvP, not my cup of tea - 2
Earthrise is a sci fi game, not my cup of tea -1
Vanguard was rushed and was never finished due to bad management so that does not count -1
FFXI is fun but I rather play EQ1 which is what I am playing currently.
6 - 4 = 2. 2 choices for gamers like myself and both are over 10 years old. Yea alot of choice there. thanks for playing but you fail.
You realize that it's YOU that is eliminating choices from yourselves based on your preferences and likes / dislikes not some grand scheme by MMORPG companies?
Right?
I could take a list of the top 6 new-school MMORPG's and tell you why I am not playing them just as easily.
Yes your right, its my choice to not play those games based on what I know I like. What is your point? My point is that I and gamers like me do not have any new games that are made for our niche market. We have a few choices but those choices are 10+ years old.
Look I am still playing EQ1 right now because it is the only game on the market that is my type of game, again I know I am the minority but we should still get some games for us.
Yes your right, its my choice to not play those games based on what I know I like. What is your point? My point is that I and gamers like me do not have any new games that are made for our niche market. We have a few choices but those choices are 10+ years old.
Look I am still playing EQ1 right now because it is the only game on the market that is my type of game, again I know I am the minority but we should still get some games for us.
Whose gonna make them?
Whose gonna fund them?
I mean, of course in happy fairy land we'd ALL have our perfect niche MMORPG and we'd all be playing and loving the shit out of it everyday and these forums would be empty.
But this is reality man.
I'm sorry, but you "and gamers like you do not have any new games that are made for your niche market" because it's not a wise investment to do so.
MO hasn't launched yet, Earthrise is still in development, and Vanguard launched way before it was ready and was a total mess.
Darkfall is still an unknown for the time being. Yes the population is small, but we still have to take a wait and see approach.
Do you know why? Do you know why VG launched before it was ready and the DF population is small? Do you know why ER and MO haven't launched yet and don't look all too promising outside their niche audiences?
I have my own thoughts on why Darkfall's population isn't bigger. Some of it has to do with having a garbage economy, and in addition I really think AV needs to follow in CCP's footsteps a bit. They need some sort of High sec equivalent in Darkfall. Having a "safer" area for carebears has done nothing but great things for CCP with EVE. Having more prey isn't a bad thing afterall, and then we could potentially see more crafters and then the in game economy could be addressed. These are just some of my ideas, I think it's much bigger than the grind/character progression that we see some people repeatedly bitching about.
As for ER and MO: they are not released because they are not yet ready. See Vanguard.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Why haven't we seen any new high quality AAA polished-on-release sandbox "old school" mmos?
Because no one wants to put up that much money to target such a small audience in comparison.
So what did they do?
Try to emulate the "big dogs" but what happens there?
They hire 2nd rate talent and don't spend enough to match the quality and polish if a game that's been released for years already.
You can't fake it and you can't copy it.
lol, I do not disagree with you. I am pointing out that those 3 posters said their was NO market demand which is false.
The MMORPG genre has been won by the casuals and I want it now crowd. All us gamers that want more out of our games can do now is vote with our wallet which we have already lost and bitch and cry on the forums until some random developer decides to throw us a bone.
So that is what we do, we come to these forums and bitch and cry about the genre that we once loved and ruled.
heero, you clearly failed to grasp the lambo metaphor. Everything after said metaphor renders every word you've typed obsolete.
Project 1999. Case in point. CASE IN POINT. Not only is there a market, but because no dev is filling it, the market itself is. Is there anything to be said against this? Can someone still sit around and argue that there is no niche worth pursuing when you look at the hard work, dedication, time, and money put in by enthousiasts (of whose numbers are noteworthy) just to have a taste of what is lacking in the industry? I mean, honestly, what argument dares stand up to this fact? (And for what it's worth, the actual undertaking of what they've done/are doing is far more impressive than what it represents on paper).
People would gladly pay double the industry standard sub ($30/mo) for an MMORPG that was tailored towards meaningful interaction with the world, challenge, community... I've seen this proposed on many an occaision with regards to age-limited servers/games, enforced naming standards for roleplay, and just plain game content. This is exactly like the lambo. I pay more, for a better quality game. I'm not shovelling out 15/mo for a box on wheels, I'm shelving out a premium for beauty of a product.
The examples could go on. Where yours are assumptions, empirically rationalized conclusions... there are real, concrete examples that remain in direct opposition.
Lastly, please don't bring up game titles out of context and attempt to make them apply as 'options'. Another poster put proper context, and your rebuttal of 'well you're limiting yourself' does little when EVERYONE is making a decision of what game to play, which not to. It's a common denom, and thus, is thrown out of consideration.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
lol, I do not disagree with you. I am pointing out that those 3 posters said their was NO market demand which is false.
I'm one of the 3 lol.
And I never said no market, and i'm sure the other two didn't mean absolute zero sum = 0 market either, it's implied that it meant that the market is small.
And I have stated some companies have been trying to tap that small market for some time now with games like VG/ER/DF/MO but my main point is that it hasn't been done by a real power house super-talented MMO studio with lots of money because the market for it is TOO small to justify that kind of expense.
Who knows, we may see some genius developers with a very small budget yet amazing programming skills and such create a true masterpiece of low budget niche MMO.
heero, you clearly failed to grasp the lambo metaphor. Everything after said metaphor renders every word you've typed obsolete.
Project 1999. Case in point. CASE IN POINT. Not only is there a market, but because no dev is filling it, the market itself is. Is there anything to be said against this? Can someone still sit around and argue that there is no niche worth pursuing when you look at the hard work, dedication, time, and money put in by enthousiasts (of whose numbers are noteworthy) just to have a taste of what is lacking in the industry? I mean, honestly, what argument dares stand up to this fact? (And for what it's worth, the actual undertaking of what they've done/are doing is far more impressive than what it represents on paper).
People would gladly pay double the industry standard sub ($30/mo) for an MMORPG that was tailored towards meaningful interaction with the world, challenge, community... I've seen this proposed on many an occaision with regards to age-limited servers/games, enforced naming standards for roleplay, and just plain game content. This is exactly like the lambo. I pay more, for a better quality game. I'm not shovelling out 15/mo for a box on wheels, I'm shelving out a premium for beauty of a product.
The examples could go on. Where yours are assumptions, empirically rationalized conclusions... there are real, concrete examples that remain in direct opposition.
Lastly, please don't bring up game titles out of context and attempt to make them apply as 'options'. Another poster put proper context, and your rebuttal of 'well you're limiting yourself' does little when EVERYONE is making a decision of what game to play, which not to. It's a common denom, and thus, is thrown out of consideration.
What people? How many?
Even paying double, tripple, quadrupple the 15$ standard sub, would it be enough people?
Logic says, if the answer was "yes" then it either A) would have been done already or would currently be in development.
If your reasoning is so absolute and true, why hasn't it happened yet?
Oh, right. Project 1999 has 499 players according to their website, it's volunteer programming work, and is emulating and taking already written code and rolling in back...
You are right.. pure genius... there have been UO and WoW 3rd party servers for... a decade?
lol, I do not disagree with you. I am pointing out that those 3 posters said their was NO market demand which is false.
I'm one of the 3 lol.
And I never said no market, and i'm sure the other two didn't mean absolute zero sum = 0 market either, it's implied that it meant that the market is small.
And I have stated some companies have been trying to tap that small market for some time now with games like VG/ER/DF/MO but my main point is that it hasn't been done by a real power house super-talented MMO studio with lots of money because the market for it is TOO small to justify that kind of expense.
Who knows, we may see some genius developers with a very small budget yet amazing programming skills and such create a true masterpiece of low budget niche MMO.
And I am here to remind you that you don't need a super well funded MMO powerhouse to make an oldschool MMO, considering the original MMOs were only made with teams of 30 people on a budget.
DAoC was made with 30 people in 2-3 years. You just need competent people.
Darkfall is a good AND bad example at the same time. Its a good example of how a small company can be successful, because they spent a small amount of money and had a small dev team, and have been profitable enough to expand their team, launch a second server, and move into a bigger office building.
That being said their numbers are still small, but that's not because it's "oldschool", its because the game is aimed at a niche(sandbox) of a niche (PvP) of a niche (FFA PvP) of a niche (twitch based combat), and they're perfectly happy with that.
Vanguard on the other hand, was extremely well funded and high budget, and aimed at the oldschool EQ players, but the management fiasco and early launch sealed their fate despite the gameplay being good.
We need a small company of skilled devs that are smart enough to aim for the 500k subs number instead of the 3 million. Because aiming for the 3 million always fails.
If we do see something more sandbox for niche markets anytime in the near future they will come from one of three places:
1) Some new indy dev; and we've seen how this goes.. hit or miss, mostly miss
2) CCP
3) Open Source community built ontop of Ryzom Core
In all honesty, that is probably your best bet for the sandbox offerings, probably for the next decade, until finally one of them can mimic the success that even some of the smaller theme park MMO's have enjoyed. EVE is the defacto standard sandbox out there, and they can't even top FFXI's subsriber numbers yet, let alone even something like Aion.
Large comanies simply won't cater to that small of an audience, at least not any company with the ability to invest the proper amount of capital to produce a quality game at release day.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
heero, you clearly failed to grasp the lambo metaphor. Everything after said metaphor renders every word you've typed obsolete.
Project 1999. Case in point. CASE IN POINT. Not only is there a market, but because no dev is filling it, the market itself is. Is there anything to be said against this? Can someone still sit around and argue that there is no niche worth pursuing when you look at the hard work, dedication, time, and money put in by enthousiasts (of whose numbers are noteworthy) just to have a taste of what is lacking in the industry? I mean, honestly, what argument dares stand up to this fact? (And for what it's worth, the actual undertaking of what they've done/are doing is far more impressive than what it represents on paper).
People would gladly pay double the industry standard sub ($30/mo) for an MMORPG that was tailored towards meaningful interaction with the world, challenge, community... I've seen this proposed on many an occaision with regards to age-limited servers/games, enforced naming standards for roleplay, and just plain game content. This is exactly like the lambo. I pay more, for a better quality game. I'm not shovelling out 15/mo for a box on wheels, I'm shelving out a premium for beauty of a product.
The examples could go on. Where yours are assumptions, empirically rationalized conclusions... there are real, concrete examples that remain in direct opposition.
Lastly, please don't bring up game titles out of context and attempt to make them apply as 'options'. Another poster put proper context, and your rebuttal of 'well you're limiting yourself' does little when EVERYONE is making a decision of what game to play, which not to. It's a common denom, and thus, is thrown out of consideration.
What people? How many?
Even paying double, tripple, quadrupple the 15$ standard sub, would it be enough people?
Logic says, if the answer was "yes" then it either A) would have been done already or would currently be in development.
If your reasoning is so absolute and true, why hasn't it happened yet?
Let's take a stab at an exercise in debate, since you conveniently sidestepped the biggest obstacle to your reasoning:
- You will counter the validity of Project 1999
- I will support the assertion of 'people'.
Only once we have both done our half will we pursue further. We will wait, as it were, for the other to finish.
I'll start:
'People'. I could put down a claim of 20 screen names offhand I've seen make this direct proposition on MMORPG. More if I cared to consider other sites with which I've had extensive history (EJ, FFXI guild, several WoW guilds...). This is 1 man's sample. A proper industry poll would obviously yield far great numbers. But to 'what extent'?
1. We will never know, until it is actually done. Reference 'models changing only when finances go red'. It won't be done, until the existing model fails.
2. It's already happening. Reference again: Project 1999. The time, as well as personal cash, and the community's role (not necessarily directly financial in nature) all represent more than a simple 15/mo. Well beyond it, if all the experts involved were billed at industry wages, and the community directly partook in the financial system.
3. Free trade. This is my catch-all. Premiums. Is there a need for a cross-stitched white wifebeater marked at $120 a pop? Nope! But wait! After that Twilight poster came out, I personally can vouch for a distributor operating out of her home that has shipped more than 30 authentic units (exact replicas) worldwide. Do people want a 'niche game'? Absolutely. Can it be made 'financially viable' through markups? Absolutely. Apple does it compared to PCs. Lambo does it compared to Honda. And the MMORPG industry is different in what way? That last one was a rhetoric.
So there we have it. 'People' has been supported. I'll kindly wait for your refute of 'Project 1999'.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
We need a small company of skilled devs that are smart enough to aim for the 500k subs number instead of the 3 million.
I agree completely.
I'm waiting too, trust me.
Remains to be seen what the final product will be, but in terms of speculation, reference WAR40K by Vigil.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Comments
First there is clearly a demand for an old school MMO. Your right , not in the numbers like WOW has but there is a demand. Your "friend" and his team did a very poor job of research if they came to the conclusion that their is no demand.
Second, sure the Majority of the market are casual gamers and they have a ton of games to choose from. Us gamers that want more depth, more challenge do not have many choices and most of our choices are over 10 years old.
Logical and interllectually stimulating arguments these are not because again they both failed to mention that there IS A MARKET FOR AN OLD SCHOOL GAME. Not a large market but enough of a market to develop a game.
Basicly all 3 of you need to learn the difference between no demand and a small demand. Again your friend and his research team sucks at their job if they came to that conlusion.
I will help you a little if you can use logic and reasoning like you say you can.
Most of the driving population cannot afford lamborghini but they are still made and sold each year because their is a small market for them.
Do you understand? Do you get that your logic and reasoning is wrong. That your "friend" and his team do not know how to research? Its not hard to understand their is amarket for a new old school MMO but because it will not draw the large numbers like WoW, companies do not make them because they think they can get WOW numbers.
Sooner or Later
I have to wonder what the OP thinks of Darkfall. Playing during EU launch is pretty far from how it is today but the reason I ask is because I felt the same way about MMOs and have been looking for that nostalgic old-school feel where dying actually matters and nobody holds your hand and everything that he has mentioned. I was disappointed in the same games mentioned but the OP left out Darkfall.
What do you think of it?
For me, it is the hidden gem that I have been looking for . .. feels like a company is finally getting it right (although they catch onto some things a little slow). If you liked pretrammel UO, running around looking for PVP in DAOC, skill growth in AC, etc. than you should give Darkfall a chance. That's Darkfall not Darkfail! Gameplay is fun as hell, totally unpredicible, and remains very challenging no matter how long you play it.
#1 problem that people complain about is the grind and it has been reduced by 6 times since I started and will be made even easier for the casual player (like me) with the next couple patches. The other issues, like cheats & exploiting, has reduced dramatically. Also AFK skill gains are not going to last long . .. theyve stopped most macroing and are promising a fix coming soon to the other ways of AFK skill gain. Prestige Classes are being introduced this year for more diversity.
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Oh silly...
You know how much $ it takes to make a quality MMO? Like, one that actually works and isn't a joke? More money then is worth investing on such a small demographic. Heck, many big budget MMOs STILL fail cause they fail to capture the larger demographics.
You are right, there IS a demand for such a MMO.
And guess what? You've had THREE yes 3 games made in the past 3-4 years! Well if you count Vanguard 4!
Darkfall, Mortal Online, Vanguard, Earthrise.
How well have those faired?
You won't find a AAA high budget MMO it's just too bad. You are right, there is a market for an old school game. But NOT a big enough market to justify spending AAA budgets on.
It's already been proven. Four times. Think I'm wrong?
If there was this magical market you speak of for an old school game... we'd have more old school games then the 4 above mentioned. And there are TWO that are currently active and quite popular. EvE and FFXI.
So that's 6.... not enough options for you?
The year is 2010. I want my virtual reality mmorpg as much as I want my flying car.
MO hasn't launched yet, Earthrise is still in development, and Vanguard launched way before it was ready and was a total mess.
Darkfall is still an unknown for the time being. Yes the population is small, but we still have to take a wait and see approach.
So ya, not following you there bud.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
You're missing the second half to this equation. The existing paradigm must fail financially while another paradigm succeds, otherwise the industry will just beat the dead horse with the e-stick and wonder why it isn't working right.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
Do you know why? Do you know why VG launched before it was ready and the DF population is small? Do you know why ER and MO haven't launched yet and don't look all too promising outside their niche audiences?
EvE is in space, not my cup of tea. -1
Darkfall and Mortal Online are all about PvP, not my cup of tea - 2
Earthrise is a sci fi game, not my cup of tea -1
Vanguard was rushed and was never finished due to bad management so that does not count -1
FFXI is fun but I rather play EQ1 which is what I am playing currently.
6 - 4 = 2. 2 choices for gamers like myself and both are over 10 years old. Yea alot of choice there. thanks for playing but you fail.
Sooner or Later
You realize that it's YOU that is eliminating choices from yourself based on your preferences and likes / dislikes not some grand scheme by MMORPG companies?
Right?
I could take a list of the top 6 new-school MMORPG's and tell you why I am not playing them just as easily.
It's not like they aren't designing and coming out with new old school MMORPG's all the time, it's that you and others just don't like them for whatever reason.
Can you not see this?
Yea the same reasons that WAR, AoC and all the other current theme park games are not doing well. Poorly made, rushed to released games. It has nothing to do with how many players the small niche audience has, it has to do with the quility of the product.
Sooner or Later
Doubt you'll ever see a sandbox game that doesn't become mostly PVP oriented anymore; you can thank the FPS crowd for that.. You'll recognize them ingame when you see them xxLOLITBAGUxx and the like, they are all over the place and IMO are the ones mostly responsible for the current state of MMO's.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
Exactly you are on the right track.
Now, what made all these games poor quality and what made them rush to release?
MONEY!
And guess where money comes from?
INVESTORS AND PUBLISHERS!
And do you know what publishers and investors do?
They care about the return on their investment.
And do you know how they figure out if they'll get a return on their investment?
BY ANALYZING MARKET DEMOGRAPHICS!
Games like WAR made the fundamental mistake of offering someone who loves apples a dirty new apple with worms in it when that same person who loves apples already has a nice, clean shiny apple in their hand. "No thanks, I'll keep this one" they say.
Yes your right, its my choice to not play those games based on what I know I like. What is your point? My point is that I and gamers like me do not have any new games that are made for our niche market. We have a few choices but those choices are 10+ years old.
Look I am still playing EQ1 right now because it is the only game on the market that is my type of game, again I know I am the minority but we should still get some games for us.
Sooner or Later
So let's do the math.
Why haven't we seen any new high quality AAA polished-on-release sandbox "old school" mmos?
Because no one wants to put up that much money to target such a small audience in comparison.
So what did they do?
Try to emulate the "big dogs" but what happens there?
They hire 2nd rate talent and don't spend enough to match the quality and polish if a game that's been released for years already.
You can't fake it and you can't copy it.
Whose gonna make them?
Whose gonna fund them?
I mean, of course in happy fairy land we'd ALL have our perfect niche MMORPG and we'd all be playing and loving the shit out of it everyday and these forums would be empty.
But this is reality man.
I'm sorry, but you "and gamers like you do not have any new games that are made for your niche market" because it's not a wise investment to do so.
I have my own thoughts on why Darkfall's population isn't bigger. Some of it has to do with having a garbage economy, and in addition I really think AV needs to follow in CCP's footsteps a bit. They need some sort of High sec equivalent in Darkfall. Having a "safer" area for carebears has done nothing but great things for CCP with EVE. Having more prey isn't a bad thing afterall, and then we could potentially see more crafters and then the in game economy could be addressed. These are just some of my ideas, I think it's much bigger than the grind/character progression that we see some people repeatedly bitching about.
As for ER and MO: they are not released because they are not yet ready. See Vanguard.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
lol, I do not disagree with you. I am pointing out that those 3 posters said their was NO market demand which is false.
The MMORPG genre has been won by the casuals and I want it now crowd. All us gamers that want more out of our games can do now is vote with our wallet which we have already lost and bitch and cry on the forums until some random developer decides to throw us a bone.
So that is what we do, we come to these forums and bitch and cry about the genre that we once loved and ruled.
Sooner or Later
heero, you clearly failed to grasp the lambo metaphor. Everything after said metaphor renders every word you've typed obsolete.
Project 1999. Case in point. CASE IN POINT. Not only is there a market, but because no dev is filling it, the market itself is. Is there anything to be said against this? Can someone still sit around and argue that there is no niche worth pursuing when you look at the hard work, dedication, time, and money put in by enthousiasts (of whose numbers are noteworthy) just to have a taste of what is lacking in the industry? I mean, honestly, what argument dares stand up to this fact? (And for what it's worth, the actual undertaking of what they've done/are doing is far more impressive than what it represents on paper).
People would gladly pay double the industry standard sub ($30/mo) for an MMORPG that was tailored towards meaningful interaction with the world, challenge, community... I've seen this proposed on many an occaision with regards to age-limited servers/games, enforced naming standards for roleplay, and just plain game content. This is exactly like the lambo. I pay more, for a better quality game. I'm not shovelling out 15/mo for a box on wheels, I'm shelving out a premium for beauty of a product.
The examples could go on. Where yours are assumptions, empirically rationalized conclusions... there are real, concrete examples that remain in direct opposition.
Lastly, please don't bring up game titles out of context and attempt to make them apply as 'options'. Another poster put proper context, and your rebuttal of 'well you're limiting yourself' does little when EVERYONE is making a decision of what game to play, which not to. It's a common denom, and thus, is thrown out of consideration.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
I'm one of the 3 lol.
And I never said no market, and i'm sure the other two didn't mean absolute zero sum = 0 market either, it's implied that it meant that the market is small.
And I have stated some companies have been trying to tap that small market for some time now with games like VG/ER/DF/MO but my main point is that it hasn't been done by a real power house super-talented MMO studio with lots of money because the market for it is TOO small to justify that kind of expense.
Who knows, we may see some genius developers with a very small budget yet amazing programming skills and such create a true masterpiece of low budget niche MMO.
What people? How many?
Even paying double, tripple, quadrupple the 15$ standard sub, would it be enough people?
Logic says, if the answer was "yes" then it either A) would have been done already or
would currently be in development.
If your reasoning is so absolute and true, why hasn't it happened yet?
Oh, right. Project 1999 has 499 players according to their website, it's volunteer programming work, and is emulating and taking already written code and rolling in back...
You are right.. pure genius... there have been UO and WoW 3rd party servers for... a decade?
Worldserver Name:
Project 1999 - Classic Legit PVE Progression
Server Version:
0.8.0
Server Status:
UP
Players Online:
508
Average Players:
412
Max Players:
776
And I am here to remind you that you don't need a super well funded MMO powerhouse to make an oldschool MMO, considering the original MMOs were only made with teams of 30 people on a budget.
DAoC was made with 30 people in 2-3 years. You just need competent people.
Darkfall is a good AND bad example at the same time. Its a good example of how a small company can be successful, because they spent a small amount of money and had a small dev team, and have been profitable enough to expand their team, launch a second server, and move into a bigger office building.
That being said their numbers are still small, but that's not because it's "oldschool", its because the game is aimed at a niche(sandbox) of a niche (PvP) of a niche (FFA PvP) of a niche (twitch based combat), and they're perfectly happy with that.
Vanguard on the other hand, was extremely well funded and high budget, and aimed at the oldschool EQ players, but the management fiasco and early launch sealed their fate despite the gameplay being good.
We need a small company of skilled devs that are smart enough to aim for the 500k subs number instead of the 3 million. Because aiming for the 3 million always fails.
I agree completely.
I'm waiting too, trust me.
If we do see something more sandbox for niche markets anytime in the near future they will come from one of three places:
1) Some new indy dev; and we've seen how this goes.. hit or miss, mostly miss
2) CCP
3) Open Source community built ontop of Ryzom Core
In all honesty, that is probably your best bet for the sandbox offerings, probably for the next decade, until finally one of them can mimic the success that even some of the smaller theme park MMO's have enjoyed. EVE is the defacto standard sandbox out there, and they can't even top FFXI's subsriber numbers yet, let alone even something like Aion.
Large comanies simply won't cater to that small of an audience, at least not any company with the ability to invest the proper amount of capital to produce a quality game at release day.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
Let's take a stab at an exercise in debate, since you conveniently sidestepped the biggest obstacle to your reasoning:
- You will counter the validity of Project 1999
- I will support the assertion of 'people'.
Only once we have both done our half will we pursue further. We will wait, as it were, for the other to finish.
I'll start:
'People'. I could put down a claim of 20 screen names offhand I've seen make this direct proposition on MMORPG. More if I cared to consider other sites with which I've had extensive history (EJ, FFXI guild, several WoW guilds...). This is 1 man's sample. A proper industry poll would obviously yield far great numbers. But to 'what extent'?
1. We will never know, until it is actually done. Reference 'models changing only when finances go red'. It won't be done, until the existing model fails.
2. It's already happening. Reference again: Project 1999. The time, as well as personal cash, and the community's role (not necessarily directly financial in nature) all represent more than a simple 15/mo. Well beyond it, if all the experts involved were billed at industry wages, and the community directly partook in the financial system.
3. Free trade. This is my catch-all. Premiums. Is there a need for a cross-stitched white wifebeater marked at $120 a pop? Nope! But wait! After that Twilight poster came out, I personally can vouch for a distributor operating out of her home that has shipped more than 30 authentic units (exact replicas) worldwide. Do people want a 'niche game'? Absolutely. Can it be made 'financially viable' through markups? Absolutely. Apple does it compared to PCs. Lambo does it compared to Honda. And the MMORPG industry is different in what way? That last one was a rhetoric.
So there we have it. 'People' has been supported. I'll kindly wait for your refute of 'Project 1999'.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Remains to be seen what the final product will be, but in terms of speculation, reference WAR40K by Vigil.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter