Except they don't sell everything in the ddo item shop. I can't get +5 mythril full plate armor or shields. I can't buy a +5 vorpal knopesh or +3 or +4 tomes or any of the actual decent loot you would aquire past level 10 in the game from chests.
Yes, they don't sell all loot but they do sell many gameplay relevent (and powerful advantages) in the cash shop and that is the point. You can buy in quest reserections, this alone changes the makeup of the game - you can buy +1 and +2 tomes, and races and classes as well. Point being that the perception that they do not sell gameplay advantages in teh cash shop is patently false, and as such those that pay a sub (VIPs) are now notably missing things important and helpful to gameplay compared to those who are willing to pay extra and buy things in the cash shop. Such is the very nature of F2P and something the represents a major change from the old model and a substantial loss to those who subscribe under the new model but are left out of these new elements without paying extra money in the cash shop.
Originally posted by Minsc
Originally posted by Rocketeer
What the haters keep ignoring is that most people familiar with DDO and LotRO are perfectly fine with this change because they like how it turned out for DDO. AgtSmith has proven nothing but his hate for the model by repeating drivel that has been countered time and time again.
I dare you to tell us all in $ or points how much this content you speak of in DDO that VIPs have to buy would cost a VIP. And lets all of us keep in mind that VIPs get 500 points for free per month and that DDO is a 4 year old game, surely there must be lots of this content that VIPs have to buy or you wouldnt make such a fuss about it.
That's easy I'll tell you:
How much do VIP's HAVE to pay to get access to ALL content in game: $0 besides their monthly sub.
How much do VIP's HAVe to pay to remain competative ingame: $0 besides their monthly sub.
END OF ARGUMENT.
End of argument if you accept misleading and insaccurate statements. It is simply not true that a sub under the Hybrid F2P model gets you 'all access', it gets you 'most access' but not all and th efew things missing are things that many will consider important and meaningful.
DDO has only been "Free to Play" for a year or so. Give it time. Most F2P games aren't bad at first, either. But then the gouging starts.
Still, DDO's revenue went up? But if you look at their presentation on it at the VG summit, even though 5x are now playing DDO, only 22% use the cash shop. Or in other words, pretty much the same people who paid before, are still paying. Only they are paying more money than they used to.
That's the brilliant thing about F2P games - they nickel and dime you, so you don't really realize how much you are spending. I spend $300 in a year on one and didn't really realize it until the end of the year and looked over my spending.
That's the whole point - to get the people who pay for games, to pay more than the subscription fee.
DDO has only been "Free to Play" for a year or so. Give it time. Most F2P games aren't bad at first, either. But then the gouging starts.
Still, DDO's revenue went up? But if you look at their presentation on it at the VG summit, even though 5x are now playing DDO, only 22% use the cash shop. Or in other words, pretty much the same people who paid before, are still paying. Only they are paying more money than they used to.
That's the brilliant thing about F2P games - they nickel and dime you, so you don't really realize how much you are spending. I spend $300 in a year on one and didn't really realize it until the end of the year and looked over my spending.
That's the whole point - to get the people who pay for games, to pay more than the subscription fee.
Ouch. I guess it does creep up on yah, eh?
If all this logic is true, I don't understand why Turbine gives VIPs free Points. Are you suggesting they'll raise the monthly fee after a while if VIPs want to continue receiving those points? Are you saying they'll start putting in irresistable content that will far exceed 500 Points, forcing VIPs to pay extra?
People keep saying Turbine's making money off the subscribers - I don't see how. They're getting the same $10/$15 a month they always have; they're getting no additional money from VIPs using the store unless the VIPs want to pay extra. Most of the stuff in there that we know of is cosmetic or convenience. If subscribers now can survive without those things, why would they suddenly need them when they cost extra? Unless Turbine jacks up the exp required for leveling by 200% or some nonsense, which they'd never do. They've been working for the last 3 years to make leveling easier. Now they're gonna turn around and waste all that work just to make a few extra bucks? Yeah. No.
Others say Turbine used DDO to test the waters. That's true, but even before they implemented this system in DDO, they were considering making LotRO a hybrid payment model game. No matter how successful it was. They've been planning this for a while. DDO was dying; they needed more people, so they created DDO's plan accordingly. LotRO's situation is not as dire. It's stagnant, but not dying. I think Turbine will tread more carefully so that they don't upset the people that are playing now, always aiming not to make the game F2P, but to encourage new people to come in (for free) and sub.
Extended free trial. That's how I see it. I don't think Turbine wants to make money from the store, unlike 99% of F2P MMOs out there. They want to make money from subs. Anything from the store is a bonus, since mostly casual players or players who don't think $15/mo is worth it will buy Turbine Points.
Except they don't sell everything in the ddo item shop. I can't get +5 mythril full plate armor or shields. I can't buy a +5 vorpal knopesh or +3 or +4 tomes or any of the actual decent loot you would aquire past level 10 in the game from chests.
Yes, they don't sell all loot but they do sell many gameplay relevent (and powerful advantages) in the cash shop and that is the point. You can buy in quest reserections, this alone changes the makeup of the game - you can buy +1 and +2 tomes, and races and classes as well. Point being that the perception that they do not sell gameplay advantages in teh cash shop is patently false, and as such those that pay a sub (VIPs) are now notably missing things important and helpful to gameplay compared to those who are willing to pay extra and buy things in the cash shop. Such is the very nature of F2P and something the represents a major change from the old model and a substantial loss to those who subscribe under the new model but are left out of these new elements without paying extra money in the cash shop.
VIP's don't need to buy any races or classes period. They also don't need to buy tomes. XP boosters and loot boosters are ALSO available ingame withouth going to the DDO store. I know this because I've seen them. VIP's are missing nothing. If you were actually a DDO VIP you would know this easily but since it's obvious that you aren't you are just speculating. I AM a current DDO VIP subscriber and I am telling you from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that you are wrong. When is the last time you played the game? Was it before it went F2P or have you even played it at all.
Originally posted by Minsc
Originally posted by Rocketeer
What the haters keep ignoring is that most people familiar with DDO and LotRO are perfectly fine with this change because they like how it turned out for DDO. AgtSmith has proven nothing but his hate for the model by repeating drivel that has been countered time and time again.
I dare you to tell us all in $ or points how much this content you speak of in DDO that VIPs have to buy would cost a VIP. And lets all of us keep in mind that VIPs get 500 points for free per month and that DDO is a 4 year old game, surely there must be lots of this content that VIPs have to buy or you wouldnt make such a fuss about it.
That's easy I'll tell you:
How much do VIP's HAVE to pay to get access to ALL content in game: $0 besides their monthly sub.
How much do VIP's HAVe to pay to remain competative ingame: $0 besides their monthly sub.
END OF ARGUMENT.
End of argument if you accept misleading and insaccurate statements. It is simply not true that a sub under the Hybrid F2P model gets you 'all access', it gets you 'most access' but not all and th efew things missing are things that many will consider important and meaningful.
VIP's get access to everything, they don't have to buy anything, there is nothing misleading in that statement it is clear and concise and entirely accurate. Unless you are a current subscriber you have no idea how easy or hard it is to get any of the loot in the game or how hard it is to unlock the favor rewards. You see a big number and think "That's too much grind" but you have absolutely NO idea how favor rewards work, it's clear in your arguments so until you can provide some other evidence besides "cause I said so" and I'm talking real numbers not "2500 is a big number so it has to take forever to get". I wanna see some math figures. How long will it take a new character under a VIP sub to get 2500 favor, how many quests do they have to complete and on what difficulty to get there. If you're not willing to back your argument up with hard numbers you're just talking out your ass.
What the haters keep ignoring is that most people familiar with DDO and LotRO are perfectly fine with this change because they like how it turned out for DDO. AgtSmith has proven nothing but his hate for the model by repeating drivel that has been countered time and time again.
I dare you to tell us all in $ or points how much this content you speak of in DDO that VIPs have to buy would cost a VIP. And lets all of us keep in mind that VIPs get 500 points for free per month and that DDO is a 4 year old game, surely there must be lots of this content that VIPs have to buy or you wouldnt make such a fuss about it.
That's easy I'll tell you:
How much do VIP's HAVE to pay to get access to ALL content in game: $0 besides their monthly sub.
How much do VIP's HAVe to pay to remain competative ingame: $0 besides their monthly sub.
END OF ARGUMENT.
If you think for 1 minute that Warner Brothers isnt going to add things that you will need/want/desire that your 500 measley TP (500 for sub and Lifers)wont cover you are sadly mistaken , They are building this model for 1 reason and 1 reason alone .....
And down the road there will be Mounts , Housing ,clothing , etc items that people whos sub money paid to develop , will have to dig into there pockets to purchase these items if they need/want /desire them ...
This model is built to bleed money from your wallet , They already heve the plan in place .. Im sure they already have items ready to go 10 months down the road .....Its very easy to code these items in at this point ....
Then some of the defenders of Warner Bros tactics will be back here crying that its not fair that they have to pay 4.99 for that House ....
Others usually the loudest outspoken ones will just disappear and try to forget how foolish they sounded...
What the haters keep ignoring is that most people familiar with DDO and LotRO are perfectly fine with this change because they like how it turned out for DDO. AgtSmith has proven nothing but his hate for the model by repeating drivel that has been countered time and time again.
I dare you to tell us all in $ or points how much this content you speak of in DDO that VIPs have to buy would cost a VIP. And lets all of us keep in mind that VIPs get 500 points for free per month and that DDO is a 4 year old game, surely there must be lots of this content that VIPs have to buy or you wouldnt make such a fuss about it.
That's easy I'll tell you:
How much do VIP's HAVE to pay to get access to ALL content in game: $0 besides their monthly sub.
How much do VIP's HAVe to pay to remain competative ingame: $0 besides their monthly sub.
END OF ARGUMENT.
If you think for 1 minute that Warner Brothers isnt going to add things that you will need/want/desire that your 500 measley TP (500 for sub and Lifers)wont cover you are sadly mistaken , They are building this model for 1 reason and 1 reason alone .....
Ok, lets recap, 500 points is measily.
And down the road there will be Mounts , Housing ,clothing , etc items that people whos sub money paid to develop , will have to dig into there pockets to purchase these items if they need/want /desire them ...
All of that is already aquireable by ingame means, and free for subscribers. Hell most of it is free to premiums.
This model is built to bleed money from your wallet , They already heve the plan in place .. Im sure they already have items ready to go 10 months down the road .....Its very easy to code these items in at this point ....
Some people have been subscribed to WoW for the last 5 years, i know them. Including basegame and expansions thats over 1k $, but i guess if its P2P its not bleeding your money ...
Then some of the defenders of Warner Bros tactics will be back here crying that its not fair that they have to pay 4.99 for that House ....
5$ is less than 500 points, but i guess even you see that it would be ridiculous to charge much more than that.
Others usually the loudest outspoken ones will just disappear and try to forget how foolish they sounded...
If i make a mistake i speak up about it, sure theres always the change it all wents to the crapper, it just doesnt appear to be from what we know currently.
Im still waiting on hard numbers how DDO is overcharging VIPs btw. And yeah i totally see how selling +1 and +2 tomes would be gamebreaking when +3 and +4 are aquireable ingame only.
What the haters keep ignoring is that most people familiar with DDO and LotRO are perfectly fine with this change because they like how it turned out for DDO. AgtSmith has proven nothing but his hate for the model by repeating drivel that has been countered time and time again.
I dare you to tell us all in $ or points how much this content you speak of in DDO that VIPs have to buy would cost a VIP. And lets all of us keep in mind that VIPs get 500 points for free per month and that DDO is a 4 year old game, surely there must be lots of this content that VIPs have to buy or you wouldnt make such a fuss about it.
That's easy I'll tell you:
How much do VIP's HAVE to pay to get access to ALL content in game: $0 besides their monthly sub.
How much do VIP's HAVe to pay to remain competative ingame: $0 besides their monthly sub.
END OF ARGUMENT.
If you think for 1 minute that Warner Brothers isnt going to add things that you will need/want/desire that your 500 measley TP (500 for sub and Lifers)wont cover you are sadly mistaken , They are building this model for 1 reason and 1 reason alone .....
But there's no need for them to do it. The VIP's are already paying them their $15 a month which is going to be more than the average Premium player will spend. You say money is all the incentive they need in order to do this but pissing off your longtime customer is more than enough incentive NOT to do it. Unlike the asian model of F2P monthly subs are still the bread and butter of turbines hybrid model and their goal is still to increase those monthly sub numbers, the premium players are just extra income that they wouldn't have gotten under their old trial method.
And down the road there will be Mounts , Housing ,clothing , etc items that people whos sub money paid to develop , will have to dig into there pockets to purchase these items if they need/want /desire them ...
If DDO is any indication then most if not all of the items available in the store will also be available ingame without spending a dime in the Store and it's entirely optional to buy them, so players can purchase them if the want/desire them, but they don't NEED to purchase anything.
This model is built to bleed money from your wallet , They already heve the plan in place .. Im sure they already have items ready to go 10 months down the road .....Its very easy to code these items in at this point ....
NO the Asian model is designed to do that, Turbines model is to supplement their monthly sub income with the casual player income that will come in the F2P model.
Then some of the defenders of Warner Bros tactics will be back here crying that its not fair that they have to pay 4.99 for that House ....
If for some reason this happens, and I highly doubt it will, I'm mature enough to admit I was wrong. But if it doesn't are you?
Others usually the loudest outspoken ones will just disappear and try to forget how foolish they sounded...
What the haters keep ignoring is that most people familiar with DDO and LotRO are perfectly fine with this change because they like how it turned out for DDO. AgtSmith has proven nothing but his hate for the model by repeating drivel that has been countered time and time again.
I dare you to tell us all in $ or points how much this content you speak of in DDO that VIPs have to buy would cost a VIP. And lets all of us keep in mind that VIPs get 500 points for free per month and that DDO is a 4 year old game, surely there must be lots of this content that VIPs have to buy or you wouldnt make such a fuss about it.
That's easy I'll tell you:
How much do VIP's HAVE to pay to get access to ALL content in game: $0 besides their monthly sub.
How much do VIP's HAVe to pay to remain competative ingame: $0 besides their monthly sub.
END OF ARGUMENT.
If you think for 1 minute that Warner Brothers isnt going to add things that you will need/want/desire that your 500 measley TP (500 for sub and Lifers)wont cover you are sadly mistaken , They are building this model for 1 reason and 1 reason alone .....
But there's no need for them to do it. The VIP's are already paying them their $15 a month which is going to be more than the average Premium player will spend. You say money is all the incentive they need in order to do this but pissing off your longtime customer is more than enough incentive NOT to do it. Unlike the asian model of F2P monthly subs are still the bread and butter of turbines hybrid model and their goal is still to increase those monthly sub numbers, the premium players are just extra income that they wouldn't have gotten under their old trial method.
And down the road there will be Mounts , Housing ,clothing , etc items that people whos sub money paid to develop , will have to dig into there pockets to purchase these items if they need/want /desire them ...
If DDO is any indication then most if not all of the items available in the store will also be available ingame without spending a dime in the Store and it's entirely optional to buy them, so players can purchase them if the want/desire them, but they don't NEED to purchase anything.
This model is built to bleed money from your wallet , They already heve the plan in place .. Im sure they already have items ready to go 10 months down the road .....Its very easy to code these items in at this point ....
NO the Asian model is designed to do that, Turbines model is to supplement their monthly sub income with the casual player income that will come in the F2P model.
Then some of the defenders of Warner Bros tactics will be back here crying that its not fair that they have to pay 4.99 for that House ....
If for some reason this happens, and I highly doubt it will, I'm mature enough to admit I was wrong. But if it doesn't are you?
Others usually the loudest outspoken ones will just disappear and try to forget how foolish they sounded...
Turbine doesnt have a model , Turbine needs to be removed from this equation , Turbines practices with DDO were theres... Turbine doesnt own LoTro anymore or DDO.... Warner Bros does.... And as always they will do what they see fit to line there pockets and bleed what they can...
Ask yourself 1 question ... Why .. Why did Waner Bros purchase Turbine, it was well planned out business decision ... They can alter this business model however they please down the road... And they will
Do you think they did it to set up a F2P model to throw open there arms wide and hope to welcome a Host of new players into there waiting warm Tolkien loving arms .. to sit by a campfire and tell tales of furry footed hobbit named Frodo,
Lol NO they did it to get into yer F%#^%in wallets . Period.
And the 12 new players per week that will download there F2P model after its been open 6 months .. are not the target .. The core subs are The dedicated players .. the ones that have invested alot of time.....
I've been playing DDO for a few months now. I don't sub at all, I buy stuff from the item shop. It's like buying a lifetime sub peicmeal. I now own permanent access to all the pre-ten content, all the classes and races, 32 point builds, shared bank slots, and an extra chracter slot on each server (I'm up to five).
So far I have spent a lot less than i would have on a typical sub based MMO simply by waiting for things to go on sale. In a normal sub based MMO in the past three months I would have spent $50 for a box and $45 in sub fees. So far in DDO I've spent about $100 on points, but I am still sitting on almost half of them. So to date I have spent maybe $60 or so. The bonus points you get just for playing help (I think I've gotten at least 400 in the past three weeks).
Is it free?
Well, no not really...not past level four unless you have a high grinding threshold. But then Turbine is not a charity organization. It's not so much free to play as pay as much as you feel like, in the way that you prefer. Or endless restricted trial, take your pick.
Is it more expensive than subbing?
No, it's about on par. It can be much cheaper if you don't mind grinding or only play the low level game. It can also be more expensive if you choose poorly in the item shop, or are a power gamer that blows through content quickly and wants access to everything. Though, honestly, in the latter situation you'd be stupid not to sub
Is it a better deal than a typical lifetime sub, where you pay $50 for a client and $200 for permanent server access (loTRO, CO, STO, ect.)?
Yes, it's a hell of a lot better deal.
Would 500 points, from a sub, pluss whatever you earn from playing be enough to buy what you want from the item shop?
Well given that you are looking at roughly 800-1000 points per month, you could likely buy a race or a class every month (particularly if you wait for them to go on sale...I only payed 600 points for favored Soul for example). 32 point builds would take longer, more like two months. And if you are blowing points on tomes, you won't have much left over. So it depends on what you want and how you play.
Does any of this apply to LoTRO?
Really I have no idea, not enough details have been released so far. How many points can you expect to "earn" by playing? How long will a quest pack last you? Ect. My main point is that I thinik DDO is a pretty good deal, and those predicting that Turbine will start gouging us in LoTRo based on it are overstating their case.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
What the haters keep ignoring is that most people familiar with DDO and LotRO are perfectly fine with this change because they like how it turned out for DDO. AgtSmith has proven nothing but his hate for the model by repeating drivel that has been countered time and time again.
I dare you to tell us all in $ or points how much this content you speak of in DDO that VIPs have to buy would cost a VIP. And lets all of us keep in mind that VIPs get 500 points for free per month and that DDO is a 4 year old game, surely there must be lots of this content that VIPs have to buy or you wouldnt make such a fuss about it.
That's easy I'll tell you:
How much do VIP's HAVE to pay to get access to ALL content in game: $0 besides their monthly sub.
How much do VIP's HAVe to pay to remain competative ingame: $0 besides their monthly sub.
END OF ARGUMENT.
If you think for 1 minute that Warner Brothers isnt going to add things that you will need/want/desire that your 500 measley TP (500 for sub and Lifers)wont cover you are sadly mistaken , They are building this model for 1 reason and 1 reason alone .....
But there's no need for them to do it. The VIP's are already paying them their $15 a month which is going to be more than the average Premium player will spend. You say money is all the incentive they need in order to do this but pissing off your longtime customer is more than enough incentive NOT to do it. Unlike the asian model of F2P monthly subs are still the bread and butter of turbines hybrid model and their goal is still to increase those monthly sub numbers, the premium players are just extra income that they wouldn't have gotten under their old trial method.
And down the road there will be Mounts , Housing ,clothing , etc items that people whos sub money paid to develop , will have to dig into there pockets to purchase these items if they need/want /desire them ...
If DDO is any indication then most if not all of the items available in the store will also be available ingame without spending a dime in the Store and it's entirely optional to buy them, so players can purchase them if the want/desire them, but they don't NEED to purchase anything.
This model is built to bleed money from your wallet , They already heve the plan in place .. Im sure they already have items ready to go 10 months down the road .....Its very easy to code these items in at this point ....
NO the Asian model is designed to do that, Turbines model is to supplement their monthly sub income with the casual player income that will come in the F2P model.
Then some of the defenders of Warner Bros tactics will be back here crying that its not fair that they have to pay 4.99 for that House ....
If for some reason this happens, and I highly doubt it will, I'm mature enough to admit I was wrong. But if it doesn't are you?
Others usually the loudest outspoken ones will just disappear and try to forget how foolish they sounded...
Turbine doesnt have a model , Turbine needs to be removed from this equation , Turbines practices with DDO were theres... Turbine doesnt own LoTro anymore or DDO.... Warner Bros does.... And as always they will do what they see fit to line there pockets and bleed what they can...
Ask yourself 1 question ... Why .. Why did Waner Bros purchase Turbine, it was well planned out business decision ... They can alter this business model however they please down the road... And they will
Do you think they did it to set up a F2P model to throw open there arms wide and hope to welcome a Host of new players into there waiting warm Tolkien loving arms .. to sit by a campfire and tell tales of furry footed hobbit named Frodo,
Lol NO they did it to get into yer F%#^%in wallets . Period.
And the 12 new players per week that will download there F2P model after its been open 6 months .. are not the target .. The core subs are The dedicated players .. the ones that have invested alot of time.....
Right and pissing off your long-term supporters makes perfect business sense. WB purchased Turbine because of their F2P model, because DDO saw a 500% increase and LOTRO has the potential to do even better numbers using the model that TURBINE established. Also WB now has the rights to make games in based on Tolkeins books and they are going to want to keep that as long as they can and owning Turbine is a great way to do it. Seriously WB doesn't need to change the model that Turbine has created because it already works well. Changing it now would be a terrible business decision.
They did an excellent job with DDO's item shop and actually infused much more fun into the game since there are actually people playing it. They have increased releasing updates and fixes because of this also. I found that you don't _NEED_ to purchase anything in the shop for real cash (now that leveling doesn't need to be purchased) and since they gave points just for advancing in the game. I just hammer out some quests and I can buy the next area I want, etc.
For some games and game companies, the item shop actually ads to the experience rather than cheapens it. As long as they make it so that I don't HAVE to spend money, it's a good thing for certain games.
If you think for 1 minute that Warner Brothers isnt going to add things that you will need/want/desire that your 500 measley TP (500 for sub and Lifers)wont cover you are sadly mistaken , They are building this model for 1 reason and 1 reason alone .....
That is what it boils down to, and you can already see evidence of this in DDO in the short time it has been F2P. They are certianly not holding a gun to anyone's head to get them to spend more but the whole model is about the lure of the convenience and advatange the cash shop offers, and that lure applies to 'free' players and VIPs alike. Sure, you can sub and play most of what you played before save a class here and there and a few other things but as the game morphs to cater to the F2P the same spend to compete element creeps in. Some will drop $200 to get a full set of +2 tomes at character creation, some will buy one or two, dungeons will get tougher to make wipes more frequent since you can now buy an in dungeon rez on the cash shop, grinds will increase over time to encourage people buying grind avoidance or acceleration. Sure, you can choose not to buy those things but the game expereince diminishes over time as you avoid spending in the cash shop becauase that is the model that makes F2P possible.
What the haters keep ignoring is that most people familiar with DDO and LotRO are perfectly fine with this change because they like how it turned out for DDO. AgtSmith has proven nothing but his hate for the model by repeating drivel that has been countered time and time again.
I dare you to tell us all in $ or points how much this content you speak of in DDO that VIPs have to buy would cost a VIP. And lets all of us keep in mind that VIPs get 500 points for free per month and that DDO is a 4 year old game, surely there must be lots of this content that VIPs have to buy or you wouldnt make such a fuss about it.
That's easy I'll tell you:
How much do VIP's HAVE to pay to get access to ALL content in game: $0 besides their monthly sub.
How much do VIP's HAVe to pay to remain competative ingame: $0 besides their monthly sub.
END OF ARGUMENT.
If you think for 1 minute that Warner Brothers isnt going to add things that you will need/want/desire that your 500 measley TP (500 for sub and Lifers)wont cover you are sadly mistaken , They are building this model for 1 reason and 1 reason alone .....
But there's no need for them to do it. The VIP's are already paying them their $15 a month which is going to be more than the average Premium player will spend. You say money is all the incentive they need in order to do this but pissing off your longtime customer is more than enough incentive NOT to do it. Unlike the asian model of F2P monthly subs are still the bread and butter of turbines hybrid model and their goal is still to increase those monthly sub numbers, the premium players are just extra income that they wouldn't have gotten under their old trial method.
And down the road there will be Mounts , Housing ,clothing , etc items that people whos sub money paid to develop , will have to dig into there pockets to purchase these items if they need/want /desire them ...
If DDO is any indication then most if not all of the items available in the store will also be available ingame without spending a dime in the Store and it's entirely optional to buy them, so players can purchase them if the want/desire them, but they don't NEED to purchase anything.
This model is built to bleed money from your wallet , They already heve the plan in place .. Im sure they already have items ready to go 10 months down the road .....Its very easy to code these items in at this point ....
NO the Asian model is designed to do that, Turbines model is to supplement their monthly sub income with the casual player income that will come in the F2P model.
Then some of the defenders of Warner Bros tactics will be back here crying that its not fair that they have to pay 4.99 for that House ....
If for some reason this happens, and I highly doubt it will, I'm mature enough to admit I was wrong. But if it doesn't are you?
Others usually the loudest outspoken ones will just disappear and try to forget how foolish they sounded...
Turbine doesnt have a model , Turbine needs to be removed from this equation , Turbines practices with DDO were theres... Turbine doesnt own LoTro anymore or DDO.... Warner Bros does.... And as always they will do what they see fit to line there pockets and bleed what they can...
Ask yourself 1 question ... Why .. Why did Waner Bros purchase Turbine, it was well planned out business decision ... They can alter this business model however they please down the road... And they will
Do you think they did it to set up a F2P model to throw open there arms wide and hope to welcome a Host of new players into there waiting warm Tolkien loving arms .. to sit by a campfire and tell tales of furry footed hobbit named Frodo,
Lol NO they did it to get into yer F%#^%in wallets . Period.
And the 12 new players per week that will download there F2P model after its been open 6 months .. are not the target .. The core subs are The dedicated players .. the ones that have invested alot of time.....
Right and pissing off your long-term supporters makes perfect business sense. WB purchased Turbine because of their F2P model, because DDO saw a 500% increase and LOTRO has the potential to do even better numbers using the model that TURBINE established. Also WB now has the rights to make games in based on Tolkeins books and they are going to want to keep that as long as they can and owning Turbine is a great way to do it. Seriously WB doesn't need to change the model that Turbine has created because it already works well. Changing it now would be a terrible business decision.
Right and we all know thru our experineces with these companies that they would never piss off there player base .. LMFAO ..aint that rich... They all do, these corporate conglomerates that are buying up these development studios always manage to piss off there player base.. Becuase they dont give a rats arse about you , Just appeasing the investors and shareholders...
Do we need to list the examples of how well these ip and studio buyouts work.. You have been around you already know the result..
LoTro , Harry Potter, DDO , Lego universe among others is what Warner Brothers has aquired in the recent months ...
Anyone wanna buy a Lego block .. you can soon .............
If you think for 1 minute that Warner Brothers isnt going to add things that you will need/want/desire that your 500 measley TP (500 for sub and Lifers)wont cover you are sadly mistaken , They are building this model for 1 reason and 1 reason alone .....
That is what it boils down to, and you can already see evidence of this in DDO in the short time it has been F2P. They are certianly not holding a gun to anyone's head to get them to spend more but the whole model is about the lure of the convenience and advatange the cash shop offers, and that lure applies to 'free' players and VIPs alike. Sure, you can sub and play most of what you played before save a class here and there and a few other things but as the game morphs to cater to the F2P the same spend to compete element creeps in. Some will drop $200 to get a full set of +2 tomes at character creation, some will buy one or two, dungeons will get tougher to make wipes more frequent since you can now buy an in dungeon rez on the cash shop, grinds will increase over time to encourage people buying grind avoidance or acceleration. Sure, you can choose not to buy those things but the game expereince diminishes over time as you avoid spending in the cash shop becauase that is the model that makes F2P possible.
Anyone with sense realizes you dont have to look far to find exactly what they are modeling there F2p after , look east folks , they are implementing the same F2P carrot that many Asian games have implemented . Altho they are easing there F2P model into the Western gamers erhmmm arse gently ...The result will be the same in the END .. lol
I wont hang around for it .. already unsubbed and reitred my 65 Ranger , and i loved LoTro....
If you think for 1 minute that Warner Brothers isnt going to add things that you will need/want/desire that your 500 measley TP (500 for sub and Lifers)wont cover you are sadly mistaken , They are building this model for 1 reason and 1 reason alone .....
That is what it boils down to, and you can already see evidence of this in DDO in the short time it has been F2P. They are certianly not holding a gun to anyone's head to get them to spend more but the whole model is about the lure of the convenience and advatange the cash shop offers, and that lure applies to 'free' players and VIPs alike. Sure, you can sub and play most of what you played before save a class here and there and a few other things but as the game morphs to cater to the F2P the same spend to compete element creeps in. Some will drop $200 to get a full set of +2 tomes at character creation, some will buy one or two, dungeons will get tougher to make wipes more frequent since you can now buy an in dungeon rez on the cash shop, grinds will increase over time to encourage people buying grind avoidance or acceleration. Sure, you can choose not to buy those things but the game expereince diminishes over time as you avoid spending in the cash shop becauase that is the model that makes F2P possible.
Anyone with sense realizes you dont have to look far to find exactly what they are modeling there F2p after , look east folks , they are implementing the same F2P carrot that many Asian games have implemented . Altho they are easing there F2P model into the Western gamers erhmmm arse gently ...The result will be the same in the END .. lol
I wont hang around for it .. already unsubbed and reitred my 65 Ranger , and i loved LoTro....
Exactly, they are just doing it slowly to temper the backlash and get people used to the idea of F2P cash shops, but over time rest assured the F2P part will rear its ugly head more and more.
Originally posted by Scorchien
Originally posted by Minsc
Right and pissing off your long-term supporters makes perfect business sense. WB purchased Turbine because of their F2P model, because DDO saw a 500% increase and LOTRO has the potential to do even better numbers using the model that TURBINE established. Also WB now has the rights to make games in based on Tolkeins books and they are going to want to keep that as long as they can and owning Turbine is a great way to do it. Seriously WB doesn't need to change the model that Turbine has created because it already works well. Changing it now would be a terrible business decision.
Right and we all know thru our experineces with these companies that they would never piss off there player base .. LMFAO ..aint that rich... They all do, these corporate conglomerates that are buying up these development studios always manage to piss off there player base.. Becuase they dont give a rats arse about you , Just appeasing the investors and shareholders...
Do we need to list the examples of how well these ip and studio buyouts work.. You have been around you already know the result..
LoTro , Harry Potter, DDO , Lego universe among others is what Warner Brothers has aquired in the recent months ...
Anyone wanna buy a Lego block .. you can soon .............
If you think for 1 minute that Warner Brothers isnt going to add things that you will need/want/desire that your 500 measley TP (500 for sub and Lifers)wont cover you are sadly mistaken , They are building this model for 1 reason and 1 reason alone .....
That is what it boils down to, and you can already see evidence of this in DDO in the short time it has been F2P. They are certianly not holding a gun to anyone's head to get them to spend more but the whole model is about the lure of the convenience and advatange the cash shop offers, and that lure applies to 'free' players and VIPs alike. Sure, you can sub and play most of what you played before save a class here and there and a few other things but as the game morphs to cater to the F2P the same spend to compete element creeps in. Some will drop $200 to get a full set of +2 tomes at character creation, some will buy one or two, dungeons will get tougher to make wipes more frequent since you can now buy an in dungeon rez on the cash shop, grinds will increase over time to encourage people buying grind avoidance or acceleration. Sure, you can choose not to buy those things but the game expereince diminishes over time as you avoid spending in the cash shop becauase that is the model that makes F2P possible.
Anyone with sense realizes you dont have to look far to find exactly what they are modeling there F2p after , look east folks , they are implementing the same F2P carrot that many Asian games have implemented . Altho they are easing there F2P model into the Western gamers erhmmm arse gently ...The result will be the same in the END .. lol
I wont hang around for it .. already unsubbed and reitred my 65 Ranger , and i loved LoTro....
Exactly, they are just doing it slowly to temper the backlash and get people used to the idea of F2P cash shops, but over time rest assured the F2P part will rear its ugly head more and more.
Originally posted by Scorchien
Originally posted by Minsc
Right and pissing off your long-term supporters makes perfect business sense. WB purchased Turbine because of their F2P model, because DDO saw a 500% increase and LOTRO has the potential to do even better numbers using the model that TURBINE established. Also WB now has the rights to make games in based on Tolkeins books and they are going to want to keep that as long as they can and owning Turbine is a great way to do it. Seriously WB doesn't need to change the model that Turbine has created because it already works well. Changing it now would be a terrible business decision.
Right and we all know thru our experineces with these companies that they would never piss off there player base .. LMFAO ..aint that rich... They all do, these corporate conglomerates that are buying up these development studios always manage to piss off there player base.. Becuase they dont give a rats arse about you , Just appeasing the investors and shareholders...
Do we need to list the examples of how well these ip and studio buyouts work.. You have been around you already know the result..
LoTro , Harry Potter, DDO , Lego universe among others is what Warner Brothers has aquired in the recent months ...
Anyone wanna buy a Lego block .. you can soon .............
I remember the offer wall. I actually got negative rep from one of the blue names in lotro as it spilled over into the lotro forums too. I picked up a week long ban in the lotro forums for posting my thought about that entire shady bussiness. There sure was a lot of hate about that entire mess.
If you think for 1 minute that Warner Brothers isnt going to add things that you will need/want/desire that your 500 measley TP (500 for sub and Lifers)wont cover you are sadly mistaken , They are building this model for 1 reason and 1 reason alone .....
That is what it boils down to, and you can already see evidence of this in DDO in the short time it has been F2P. They are certianly not holding a gun to anyone's head to get them to spend more but the whole model is about the lure of the convenience and advatange the cash shop offers, and that lure applies to 'free' players and VIPs alike. Sure, you can sub and play most of what you played before save a class here and there and a few other things but as the game morphs to cater to the F2P the same spend to compete element creeps in. Some will drop $200 to get a full set of +2 tomes at character creation, some will buy one or two, dungeons will get tougher to make wipes more frequent since you can now buy an in dungeon rez on the cash shop, grinds will increase over time to encourage people buying grind avoidance or acceleration. Sure, you can choose not to buy those things but the game expereince diminishes over time as you avoid spending in the cash shop becauase that is the model that makes F2P possible.
Anyone with sense realizes you dont have to look far to find exactly what they are modeling there F2p after , look east folks , they are implementing the same F2P carrot that many Asian games have implemented . Altho they are easing there F2P model into the Western gamers erhmmm arse gently ...The result will be the same in the END .. lol
I wont hang around for it .. already unsubbed and reitred my 65 Ranger , and i loved LoTro....
Exactly, they are just doing it slowly to temper the backlash and get people used to the idea of F2P cash shops, but over time rest assured the F2P part will rear its ugly head more and more.
Originally posted by Scorchien
Originally posted by Minsc
Right and pissing off your long-term supporters makes perfect business sense. WB purchased Turbine because of their F2P model, because DDO saw a 500% increase and LOTRO has the potential to do even better numbers using the model that TURBINE established. Also WB now has the rights to make games in based on Tolkeins books and they are going to want to keep that as long as they can and owning Turbine is a great way to do it. Seriously WB doesn't need to change the model that Turbine has created because it already works well. Changing it now would be a terrible business decision.
Right and we all know thru our experineces with these companies that they would never piss off there player base .. LMFAO ..aint that rich... They all do, these corporate conglomerates that are buying up these development studios always manage to piss off there player base.. Becuase they dont give a rats arse about you , Just appeasing the investors and shareholders...
Do we need to list the examples of how well these ip and studio buyouts work.. You have been around you already know the result..
LoTro , Harry Potter, DDO , Lego universe among others is what Warner Brothers has aquired in the recent months ...
Anyone wanna buy a Lego block .. you can soon .............
And what many folks are missing here is this is Time Warner.. Warner Bros is a subsidary of Time Warner ..
Time Warner has been $%itting on consumers ,players and fans for 5 decades .. From every form of entertainment there is , Baseball, Baskeball, TV , video games , Internet , Movies, Cable etc the list is long and ugly of the companies , teams,invenitors , creators and artists that they buy up ,Eat , Digest , removing all that was good and SH*t you out whats left then sell you off .....
But LoTRO will be different , they wouldnt dare defile Mr Tolkien .. LMFAO ... get a grip
I bought a Lifetime sub a year after the game released. I should have realized that if I wasn't interested enough in LOTRO to buy it at release, that year wasn't going to make much difference. But it was such a good deal, or so I thought. Tracking down others just to finish a quest line isn't my style of play and I found myself leaving more and more unfinished. Even the vaunted Book Quests were revealed to be non-solo friendly. Crafting was okay, but every recipe requires you to buy some component from a vendor. Events were okay, but honestly, how many times can you make a beer run before it loses its appeal?
Even still, I bought the Mines of Moria and Mirkwood expansions and haven't found the inclination to get to the point where I could justify the purchase. I love fantasy fiction, but (heretical as it may sound) I've never really cared for Tolkien's books, so I'm not a "fan". LOTRO is a decent game, but it's not great, unless you just have a burning desire to plod around in Middle Earth. Now Turbine seems bent on watering down the atmosphere of the game by opening the doors to a horde of players who may not know who Tolkien is, apart from the movies, and don't care. They're there to play a free game, nothing more. Forcing a multitude of "KillaX"s and "Rofldude"s on the existing playerbase does that base a great disservice.
I don't log in to my $200 investment anymore and have no desire to. Turbine has gotten all they are going to get out of me.
"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II "People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift
If you think for 1 minute that Warner Brothers isnt going to add things that you will need/want/desire that your 500 measley TP (500 for sub and Lifers)wont cover you are sadly mistaken , They are building this model for 1 reason and 1 reason alone .....
That is what it boils down to, and you can already see evidence of this in DDO in the short time it has been F2P. They are certianly not holding a gun to anyone's head to get them to spend more but the whole model is about the lure of the convenience and advatange the cash shop offers, and that lure applies to 'free' players and VIPs alike. Sure, you can sub and play most of what you played before save a class here and there and a few other things but as the game morphs to cater to the F2P the same spend to compete element creeps in. Some will drop $200 to get a full set of +2 tomes at character creation, some will buy one or two, dungeons will get tougher to make wipes more frequent since you can now buy an in dungeon rez on the cash shop, grinds will increase over time to encourage people buying grind avoidance or acceleration. Sure, you can choose not to buy those things but the game expereince diminishes over time as you avoid spending in the cash shop becauase that is the model that makes F2P possible.
Ok let me racap this in terms so people not familiar with DDO understand it. This is now WoW, Blizzard is selling you the Tier 8 Raid set(+2 tomes) on the item shop for real cash. Only that we are ingame already at the Tier 14 raid set, which is about 100 item levels higher(+3 and +4 tomes). Sure some f******* idiots will probably buy it anyway, and yes i will kiss the ground they walk on, but not because they bought that insanely cool armor, but because they are working on singlehandedly financing the next expansion.
To quote something back at you, a fool and his money are easily parted. The more fools we have buying second rate stuff at craptastic prices in the store(wohoo +20% experience for three hours, thats like awesome), the less the chance that Turbine will be forced to do a desperate money grub that will force me to quit their game. Anyone knows how fickle MMO gamers are, we are some of the most disloyal fans around anywhere.
People are stupid, thats why this buisness model works so well, not because its screwing everyone equally, but because its screwing the stupid/rich ones a lot. Those XP potions are some of the best selling items on their store, that says everything. You could either have 30 hours of +20% XP or buy a couple of dungeons you can play as often as you want even years in the future without paying anything again(they introduce dungeon scaling the next bookupdate btw, complete with lootscaleing etc).... wait let me think, what has the better value ...
And what is probably my last argument, it already happened. The whiners where there when DDO did this, said the game would be dead in a year and now look at it. Its doing better than ever before, Turbine is doing better than ever before. All you can say is "oh years from now, someday, in the far far future, they will go to far, i have seen it in my crystal ball". Didnt happen last year i say, see no reason for it to happen in the next.
Ok let me racap this in terms so people not familiar with DDO understand it. This is now WoW, Blizzard is selling you the Tier 8 Raid set(+2 tomes) on the item shop for real cash. Only that we are ingame already at the Tier 14 raid set, which is about 100 item levels higher(+3 and +4 tomes). Sure some f******* idiots will probably buy it anyway, and yes i will kiss the ground they walk on, but not because they bought that insanely cool armor, but because they are working on singlehandedly financing the next expansion.
To quote something back at you, a fool and his money are easily parted. The more fools we have buying second rate stuff at craptastic prices in the store(wohoo +20% experience for three hours, thats like awesome), the less the chance that Turbine will be forced to do a desperate money grub that will force me to quit their game. Anyone knows how fickle MMO gamers are, we are some of the most disloyal fans around anywhere.
People are stupid, thats why this buisness model works so well, not because its screwing everyone equally, but because its screwing the stupid/rich ones a lot. Those XP potions are some of the best selling items on their store, that says everything. You could either have 30 hours of +20% XP or buy a couple of dungeons you can play as often as you want even years in the future without paying anything again(they introduce dungeon scaling the next bookupdate btw, complete with lootscaleing etc).... wait let me think, what has the better value ...
And what is probably my last argument, it already happened. The whiners where there when DDO did this, said the game would be dead in a year and now look at it. Its doing better than ever before, Turbine is doing better than ever before. All you can say is "oh years from now, someday, in the far far future, they will go to far, i have seen it in my crystal ball". Didnt happen last year i say, see no reason for it to happen in the next.
OK, so let's just say we accept all your arguments above. So you are telling me that Turbine, or any DEV, is going to count all that money from the 'fools' and 'f******* idiots' and 'stupid people' and then use that money to make you content, not the fools and f******* idiots and stupid people that are making Turbine, or any dev in this situation, so wealthy? Do you really believe that? Or is it more likely that devs time will go, largely, in to direct development of more things that get the 'fools' and 'f******* idiots' and 'stupid people' to spend even more money and that even temps the non morons to spend more money too? That is the point - if you are a free player you are not what they are focused on, and since so few actually pay the bills under F2P that means most gamers are not the focus of F2P devs. Now the hybrid model helps with this a little bit but over time as they devs learn, like they do not know it going in, that anything new they add that can be sold in the cash shop or earned by long grind in game earns them more money they do it more and more, for F2P and VIPs alike.
Ok let me racap this in terms so people not familiar with DDO understand it. This is now WoW, Blizzard is selling you the Tier 8 Raid set(+2 tomes) on the item shop for real cash. Only that we are ingame already at the Tier 14 raid set, which is about 100 item levels higher(+3 and +4 tomes). Sure some f******* idiots will probably buy it anyway, and yes i will kiss the ground they walk on, but not because they bought that insanely cool armor, but because they are working on singlehandedly financing the next expansion.
To quote something back at you, a fool and his money are easily parted. The more fools we have buying second rate stuff at craptastic prices in the store(wohoo +20% experience for three hours, thats like awesome), the less the chance that Turbine will be forced to do a desperate money grub that will force me to quit their game. Anyone knows how fickle MMO gamers are, we are some of the most disloyal fans around anywhere.
People are stupid, thats why this buisness model works so well, not because its screwing everyone equally, but because its screwing the stupid/rich ones a lot. Those XP potions are some of the best selling items on their store, that says everything. You could either have 30 hours of +20% XP or buy a couple of dungeons you can play as often as you want even years in the future without paying anything again(they introduce dungeon scaling the next bookupdate btw, complete with lootscaleing etc).... wait let me think, what has the better value ...
And what is probably my last argument, it already happened. The whiners where there when DDO did this, said the game would be dead in a year and now look at it. Its doing better than ever before, Turbine is doing better than ever before. All you can say is "oh years from now, someday, in the far far future, they will go to far, i have seen it in my crystal ball". Didnt happen last year i say, see no reason for it to happen in the next.
OK, so let's just say we accept all your arguments above. So you are telling me that Turbine, or any DEV, is going to count all that money from the 'fools' and 'f******* idiots' and 'stupid people' and then use that money to make you content, not the fools and f******* idiots and stupid people that are making Turbine, or any dev in this situation, so wealthy? Do you really believe that? Or is it more likely that devs time will go, largely, in to direct development of more things that get the 'fools' and 'f******* idiots' and 'stupid people' to spend even more money and that even temps the non morons to spend more money too? That is the point - if you are a free player you are not what they are focused on, and since so few actually pay the bills under F2P that means most gamers are not the focus of F2P devs. Now the hybrid model helps with this a little bit but over time as they devs learn, like they do not know it going in, that anything new they add that can be sold in the cash shop or earned by long grind in game earns them more money they do it more and more, for F2P and VIPs alike.
The idiots are happy with XP and loot pots, what do you want to make them? XXP and loooot pots? Just raise the levelcap, maybe add a new race/class and they will buy them like crazy again. Its two birds with one stone, subscribers are happy they get new content, premiums are happy because they get to buy stuff again(buying stuff releases endorphines in the brain, thats why women like shopping so much, and chocolate, things males are completly impervious agains ofc), free players are happy they can grind another bazillion favor.
Why shouldnt it work? Seems pretty much how DDO got their 500% revenue increase, just look at the most sales category on their store, its mostly consumeables. Makes sense that the consumeables sell the best, cause you have to buy them again and again.
Why shouldnt it work? Seems pretty much how DDO got their 500% revenue increase, just look at the most sales category on their store, its mostly consumeables. Makes sense that the consumeables sell the best, cause you have to buy them again and again.
I do not disagree with this, not entirely, in fact that is largely why I think the model is 'dangerous'. They make their money of these cash shop items, even if just from a small subset of the overall players. However, over time there is great incentive to make them more and more necessary (i.e. to make grinds longer and other such things harder without said cash shop items). So you start day one with a system that is similar (at least in some ways) for subscribers to the old model (excepting the changes that result from a cash shop and F2P being worked in) but over time the pressure takes you further and further from that point and the sub becomes more and more diminished as the cash shop is more and more emphasized. T
To the point of expansions being extras subscribers under the current model have to pay extra for that is true but you can bet your last buck that buying an expansion in a box or digital download will be a far greater value than buying all its little pieces carved up and sold individually through the cash shop. Heck, most MMOs outside a rare few include expansions with the initial box price once it has been out a couple months or more, currently LotRO is $29.99 for the original game, both expansions (MoM and SoM), and 30 days play - that is value you will never see come F2P.
So however you slice it, I just think this is a move about one thing more for the same or lots more from a few new eyes drawn in by the F2P. And over time, subscribers can rest assured they will never get the value they got under the current model and gameplay will, at least in part (and probably large part) be steered not by what is best for players and the game but what is best for generating cash shop sales.
I bought a Lifetime sub a year after the game released. I should have realized that if I wasn't interested enough in LOTRO to buy it at release, that year wasn't going to make much difference. But it was such a good deal, or so I thought. Tracking down others just to finish a quest line isn't my style of play and I found myself leaving more and more unfinished. Even the vaunted Book Quests were revealed to be non-solo friendly. Crafting was okay, but every recipe requires you to buy some component from a vendor. Events were okay, but honestly, how many times can you make a beer run before it loses its appeal?
Even still, I bought the Mines of Moria and Mirkwood expansions and haven't found the inclination to get to the point where I could justify the purchase. I love fantasy fiction, but (heretical as it may sound) I've never really cared for Tolkien's books, so I'm not a "fan". LOTRO is a decent game, but it's not great, unless you just have a burning desire to plod around in Middle Earth. Now Turbine seems bent on watering down the atmosphere of the game by opening the doors to a horde of players who may not know who Tolkien is, apart from the movies, and don't care. They're there to play a free game, nothing more. Forcing a multitude of "KillaX"s and "Rofldude"s on the existing playerbase does that base a great disservice.
I don't log in to my $200 investment anymore and have no desire to. Turbine has gotten all they are going to get out of me.
Well then you are in luck. If you log in once per month between now and the launch of FtP, you get 500 free points per month that you decide to log in. You don't even have to do anything, log in send out a shout "This game sucks, screw you Turbine" and log off. You still get your 500 points for that month.
Also, all of the low level book quests are now soloable. If you start one of the old group book quests solo, you get buffed up to the roughly stats of a raid boss. So far this only extends through the pre-MoM books. But you can certainly get through the end of the old books and get your free white horse. It's a nice looking horse. The storyline is pretty good too.
Finally, once FtP goes live, you will start getting 500 free Turbine points a month whether you log or not. So the longer you stay ticked and don't log or spend any of your points, the more valuable your account becomes. Theoretically you could save up and get future expansions for free.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
What the haters keep ignoring is that most people familiar with DDO and LotRO are perfectly fine with this change because they like how it turned out for DDO. AgtSmith has proven nothing but his hate for the model by repeating drivel that has been countered time and time again.
I dare you to tell us all in $ or points how much this content you speak of in DDO that VIPs have to buy would cost a VIP. And lets all of us keep in mind that VIPs get 500 points for free per month and that DDO is a 4 year old game, surely there must be lots of this content that VIPs have to buy or you wouldnt make such a fuss about it.
That's easy I'll tell you:
How much do VIP's HAVE to pay to get access to ALL content in game: $0 besides their monthly sub.
How much do VIP's HAVe to pay to remain competative ingame: $0 besides their monthly sub.
END OF ARGUMENT.
If you think for 1 minute that Warner Brothers isnt going to add things that you will need/want/desire that your 500 measley TP (500 for sub and Lifers)wont cover you are sadly mistaken , They are building this model for 1 reason and 1 reason alone .....
But there's no need for them to do it. The VIP's are already paying them their $15 a month which is going to be more than the average Premium player will spend. You say money is all the incentive they need in order to do this but pissing off your longtime customer is more than enough incentive NOT to do it. Unlike the asian model of F2P monthly subs are still the bread and butter of turbines hybrid model and their goal is still to increase those monthly sub numbers, the premium players are just extra income that they wouldn't have gotten under their old trial method.
And down the road there will be Mounts , Housing ,clothing , etc items that people whos sub money paid to develop , will have to dig into there pockets to purchase these items if they need/want /desire them ...
If DDO is any indication then most if not all of the items available in the store will also be available ingame without spending a dime in the Store and it's entirely optional to buy them, so players can purchase them if the want/desire them, but they don't NEED to purchase anything.
This model is built to bleed money from your wallet , They already heve the plan in place .. Im sure they already have items ready to go 10 months down the road .....Its very easy to code these items in at this point ....
NO the Asian model is designed to do that, Turbines model is to supplement their monthly sub income with the casual player income that will come in the F2P model.
Then some of the defenders of Warner Bros tactics will be back here crying that its not fair that they have to pay 4.99 for that House ....
If for some reason this happens, and I highly doubt it will, I'm mature enough to admit I was wrong. But if it doesn't are you?
Others usually the loudest outspoken ones will just disappear and try to forget how foolish they sounded...
Turbine doesnt have a model , Turbine needs to be removed from this equation , Turbines practices with DDO were theres... Turbine doesnt own LoTro anymore or DDO.... Warner Bros does.... And as always they will do what they see fit to line there pockets and bleed what they can...
Ask yourself 1 question ... Why .. Why did Waner Bros purchase Turbine, it was well planned out business decision ... They can alter this business model however they please down the road... And they will
Do you think they did it to set up a F2P model to throw open there arms wide and hope to welcome a Host of new players into there waiting warm Tolkien loving arms .. to sit by a campfire and tell tales of furry footed hobbit named Frodo,
Lol NO they did it to get into yer F%#^%in wallets . Period.
And the 12 new players per week that will download there F2P model after its been open 6 months .. are not the target .. The core subs are The dedicated players .. the ones that have invested alot of time.....
Right and pissing off your long-term supporters makes perfect business sense. WB purchased Turbine because of their F2P model, because DDO saw a 500% increase and LOTRO has the potential to do even better numbers using the model that TURBINE established. Also WB now has the rights to make games in based on Tolkeins books and they are going to want to keep that as long as they can and owning Turbine is a great way to do it. Seriously WB doesn't need to change the model that Turbine has created because it already works well. Changing it now would be a terrible business decision.
Right and we all know thru our experineces with these companies that they would never piss off there player base .. LMFAO ..aint that rich... They all do, these corporate conglomerates that are buying up these development studios always manage to piss off there player base.. Becuase they dont give a rats arse about you , Just appeasing the investors and shareholders...
Do we need to list the examples of how well these ip and studio buyouts work.. You have been around you already know the result..
LoTro , Harry Potter, DDO , Lego universe among others is what Warner Brothers has aquired in the recent months ...
Anyone wanna buy a Lego block .. you can soon .............
You know what, a couple of years ago I would have agreed with you. EA was by far the worst offender for buying up then destroying dev houses but it kept on coming back and kicking them in the ass. Then they bought BIOWARE and just continued to let them do their thing and it's worked out beautifully for them. Look the mess with activision and Infinity Ward. They went and messed up and tried to screw over IW's founders and ended up losing 3/4 of the dev house. That series is screwed now and you don't think they'll learn a lesson from that. Call of Duty is one of their most profitable franchises but without the dev team behind it that series is dead. The industry is learning, don't mess with a good thing, especially longterm moneymakers like MMO's.
Why shouldnt it work? Seems pretty much how DDO got their 500% revenue increase, just look at the most sales category on their store, its mostly consumeables. Makes sense that the consumeables sell the best, cause you have to buy them again and again.
I do not disagree with this, not entirely, in fact that is largely why I think the model is 'dangerous'. They make their money of these cash shop items, even if just from a small subset of the overall players. However, over time there is great incentive to make them more and more necessary (i.e. to make grinds longer and other such things harder without said cash shop items). So you start day one with a system that is similar (at least in some ways) for subscribers to the old model (excepting the changes that result from a cash shop and F2P being worked in) but over time the pressure takes you further and further from that point and the sub becomes more and more diminished as the cash shop is more and more emphasized. T
To the point of expansions being extras subscribers under the current model have to pay extra for that is true but you can bet your last buck that buying an expansion in a box or digital download will be a far greater value than buying all its little pieces carved up and sold individually through the cash shop. Heck, most MMOs outside a rare few include expansions with the initial box price once it has been out a couple months or more, currently LotRO is $29.99 for the original game, both expansions (MoM and SoM), and 30 days play - that is value you will never see come F2P.
So however you slice it, I just think this is a move about one thing more for the same or lots more from a few new eyes drawn in by the F2P. And over time, subscribers can rest assured they will never get the value they got under the current model and gameplay will, at least in part (and probably large part) be steered not by what is best for players and the game but what is best for generating cash shop sales.
Personally i just dont see the incentive to buy loot or XP potions. If you level so slow its annoying you a 20 or even 30% boost wont change that, and players just wildly diverge on what they think is acceptable leveling speed. Loot isnt an option for me either, 95% of what you is not useful to your class anyway, atleast thats my take. You sell it and use the money to buy stuff you actually want.
Let me help you out with a couple arguments what will really annoy F2P players:
1. You cant make auctions, only bid and buy. I dont know about you, but i make alteast 70% of my cash selling crafting resources or items on the AH.
2. You cant get a horse or big house because its above your max gold limit.
3. Without selling stuff on the AH and no questrewards you wont have the cash to properly keep your craft onlevel for anything but farmer and cook, so you cant even craft items for yourself.
4. So you dont craft, what do you do if all your bags are full and your at the goldcap? Have fun destroying valuable stuff.
Those are the big problems i see, and the reason i will go premium and spend some cash. I dont much care about the quests, maybe ill buy one or two strategically placed regions like lonelands and angmar, once i get sick of those ill probably buy others for my twinks, but that might be quite some time down the road.
Comments
Yes, they don't sell all loot but they do sell many gameplay relevent (and powerful advantages) in the cash shop and that is the point. You can buy in quest reserections, this alone changes the makeup of the game - you can buy +1 and +2 tomes, and races and classes as well. Point being that the perception that they do not sell gameplay advantages in teh cash shop is patently false, and as such those that pay a sub (VIPs) are now notably missing things important and helpful to gameplay compared to those who are willing to pay extra and buy things in the cash shop. Such is the very nature of F2P and something the represents a major change from the old model and a substantial loss to those who subscribe under the new model but are left out of these new elements without paying extra money in the cash shop.
End of argument if you accept misleading and insaccurate statements. It is simply not true that a sub under the Hybrid F2P model gets you 'all access', it gets you 'most access' but not all and th efew things missing are things that many will consider important and meaningful.
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DDO has only been "Free to Play" for a year or so. Give it time. Most F2P games aren't bad at first, either. But then the gouging starts.
Still, DDO's revenue went up? But if you look at their presentation on it at the VG summit, even though 5x are now playing DDO, only 22% use the cash shop. Or in other words, pretty much the same people who paid before, are still paying. Only they are paying more money than they used to.
That's the brilliant thing about F2P games - they nickel and dime you, so you don't really realize how much you are spending. I spend $300 in a year on one and didn't really realize it until the end of the year and looked over my spending.
That's the whole point - to get the people who pay for games, to pay more than the subscription fee.
R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there
Ouch. I guess it does creep up on yah, eh?
If all this logic is true, I don't understand why Turbine gives VIPs free Points. Are you suggesting they'll raise the monthly fee after a while if VIPs want to continue receiving those points? Are you saying they'll start putting in irresistable content that will far exceed 500 Points, forcing VIPs to pay extra?
People keep saying Turbine's making money off the subscribers - I don't see how. They're getting the same $10/$15 a month they always have; they're getting no additional money from VIPs using the store unless the VIPs want to pay extra. Most of the stuff in there that we know of is cosmetic or convenience. If subscribers now can survive without those things, why would they suddenly need them when they cost extra? Unless Turbine jacks up the exp required for leveling by 200% or some nonsense, which they'd never do. They've been working for the last 3 years to make leveling easier. Now they're gonna turn around and waste all that work just to make a few extra bucks? Yeah. No.
Others say Turbine used DDO to test the waters. That's true, but even before they implemented this system in DDO, they were considering making LotRO a hybrid payment model game. No matter how successful it was. They've been planning this for a while. DDO was dying; they needed more people, so they created DDO's plan accordingly. LotRO's situation is not as dire. It's stagnant, but not dying. I think Turbine will tread more carefully so that they don't upset the people that are playing now, always aiming not to make the game F2P, but to encourage new people to come in (for free) and sub.
Extended free trial. That's how I see it. I don't think Turbine wants to make money from the store, unlike 99% of F2P MMOs out there. They want to make money from subs. Anything from the store is a bonus, since mostly casual players or players who don't think $15/mo is worth it will buy Turbine Points.
If you think for 1 minute that Warner Brothers isnt going to add things that you will need/want/desire that your 500 measley TP (500 for sub and Lifers)wont cover you are sadly mistaken , They are building this model for 1 reason and 1 reason alone .....
And down the road there will be Mounts , Housing ,clothing , etc items that people whos sub money paid to develop , will have to dig into there pockets to purchase these items if they need/want /desire them ...
This model is built to bleed money from your wallet , They already heve the plan in place .. Im sure they already have items ready to go 10 months down the road .....Its very easy to code these items in at this point ....
Then some of the defenders of Warner Bros tactics will be back here crying that its not fair that they have to pay 4.99 for that House ....
Others usually the loudest outspoken ones will just disappear and try to forget how foolish they sounded...
Turbine doesnt have a model , Turbine needs to be removed from this equation , Turbines practices with DDO were theres... Turbine doesnt own LoTro anymore or DDO.... Warner Bros does.... And as always they will do what they see fit to line there pockets and bleed what they can...
Ask yourself 1 question ... Why .. Why did Waner Bros purchase Turbine, it was well planned out business decision ... They can alter this business model however they please down the road... And they will
Do you think they did it to set up a F2P model to throw open there arms wide and hope to welcome a Host of new players into there waiting warm Tolkien loving arms .. to sit by a campfire and tell tales of furry footed hobbit named Frodo,
Lol NO they did it to get into yer F%#^%in wallets . Period.
And the 12 new players per week that will download there F2P model after its been open 6 months .. are not the target .. The core subs are The dedicated players .. the ones that have invested alot of time.....
I've been playing DDO for a few months now. I don't sub at all, I buy stuff from the item shop. It's like buying a lifetime sub peicmeal. I now own permanent access to all the pre-ten content, all the classes and races, 32 point builds, shared bank slots, and an extra chracter slot on each server (I'm up to five).
So far I have spent a lot less than i would have on a typical sub based MMO simply by waiting for things to go on sale. In a normal sub based MMO in the past three months I would have spent $50 for a box and $45 in sub fees. So far in DDO I've spent about $100 on points, but I am still sitting on almost half of them. So to date I have spent maybe $60 or so. The bonus points you get just for playing help (I think I've gotten at least 400 in the past three weeks).
Is it free?
Well, no not really...not past level four unless you have a high grinding threshold. But then Turbine is not a charity organization. It's not so much free to play as pay as much as you feel like, in the way that you prefer. Or endless restricted trial, take your pick.
Is it more expensive than subbing?
No, it's about on par. It can be much cheaper if you don't mind grinding or only play the low level game. It can also be more expensive if you choose poorly in the item shop, or are a power gamer that blows through content quickly and wants access to everything. Though, honestly, in the latter situation you'd be stupid not to sub
Is it a better deal than a typical lifetime sub, where you pay $50 for a client and $200 for permanent server access (loTRO, CO, STO, ect.)?
Yes, it's a hell of a lot better deal.
Would 500 points, from a sub, pluss whatever you earn from playing be enough to buy what you want from the item shop?
Well given that you are looking at roughly 800-1000 points per month, you could likely buy a race or a class every month (particularly if you wait for them to go on sale...I only payed 600 points for favored Soul for example). 32 point builds would take longer, more like two months. And if you are blowing points on tomes, you won't have much left over. So it depends on what you want and how you play.
Does any of this apply to LoTRO?
Really I have no idea, not enough details have been released so far. How many points can you expect to "earn" by playing? How long will a quest pack last you? Ect. My main point is that I thinik DDO is a pretty good deal, and those predicting that Turbine will start gouging us in LoTRo based on it are overstating their case.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Right and pissing off your long-term supporters makes perfect business sense. WB purchased Turbine because of their F2P model, because DDO saw a 500% increase and LOTRO has the potential to do even better numbers using the model that TURBINE established. Also WB now has the rights to make games in based on Tolkeins books and they are going to want to keep that as long as they can and owning Turbine is a great way to do it. Seriously WB doesn't need to change the model that Turbine has created because it already works well. Changing it now would be a terrible business decision.
To all of the negative ranting folks:
They did an excellent job with DDO's item shop and actually infused much more fun into the game since there are actually people playing it. They have increased releasing updates and fixes because of this also. I found that you don't _NEED_ to purchase anything in the shop for real cash (now that leveling doesn't need to be purchased) and since they gave points just for advancing in the game. I just hammer out some quests and I can buy the next area I want, etc.
For some games and game companies, the item shop actually ads to the experience rather than cheapens it. As long as they make it so that I don't HAVE to spend money, it's a good thing for certain games.
That is what it boils down to, and you can already see evidence of this in DDO in the short time it has been F2P. They are certianly not holding a gun to anyone's head to get them to spend more but the whole model is about the lure of the convenience and advatange the cash shop offers, and that lure applies to 'free' players and VIPs alike. Sure, you can sub and play most of what you played before save a class here and there and a few other things but as the game morphs to cater to the F2P the same spend to compete element creeps in. Some will drop $200 to get a full set of +2 tomes at character creation, some will buy one or two, dungeons will get tougher to make wipes more frequent since you can now buy an in dungeon rez on the cash shop, grinds will increase over time to encourage people buying grind avoidance or acceleration. Sure, you can choose not to buy those things but the game expereince diminishes over time as you avoid spending in the cash shop becauase that is the model that makes F2P possible.
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Right and we all know thru our experineces with these companies that they would never piss off there player base .. LMFAO ..aint that rich... They all do, these corporate conglomerates that are buying up these development studios always manage to piss off there player base.. Becuase they dont give a rats arse about you , Just appeasing the investors and shareholders...
Do we need to list the examples of how well these ip and studio buyouts work.. You have been around you already know the result..
LoTro , Harry Potter, DDO , Lego universe among others is what Warner Brothers has aquired in the recent months ...
Anyone wanna buy a Lego block .. you can soon .............
Anyone with sense realizes you dont have to look far to find exactly what they are modeling there F2p after , look east folks , they are implementing the same F2P carrot that many Asian games have implemented . Altho they are easing there F2P model into the Western gamers erhmmm arse gently ...The result will be the same in the END .. lol
I wont hang around for it .. already unsubbed and reitred my 65 Ranger , and i loved LoTro....
Exactly, they are just doing it slowly to temper the backlash and get people used to the idea of F2P cash shops, but over time rest assured the F2P part will rear its ugly head more and more.
Exactly, I mean Turbine would never do anything to piss off the playerbase or exploit them for a buck.
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I remember the offer wall. I actually got negative rep from one of the blue names in lotro as it spilled over into the lotro forums too. I picked up a week long ban in the lotro forums for posting my thought about that entire shady bussiness. There sure was a lot of hate about that entire mess.
And what many folks are missing here is this is Time Warner.. Warner Bros is a subsidary of Time Warner ..
Time Warner has been $%itting on consumers ,players and fans for 5 decades .. From every form of entertainment there is , Baseball, Baskeball, TV , video games , Internet , Movies, Cable etc the list is long and ugly of the companies , teams,invenitors , creators and artists that they buy up ,Eat , Digest , removing all that was good and SH*t you out whats left then sell you off .....
But LoTRO will be different , they wouldnt dare defile Mr Tolkien .. LMFAO ... get a grip
I bought a Lifetime sub a year after the game released. I should have realized that if I wasn't interested enough in LOTRO to buy it at release, that year wasn't going to make much difference. But it was such a good deal, or so I thought. Tracking down others just to finish a quest line isn't my style of play and I found myself leaving more and more unfinished. Even the vaunted Book Quests were revealed to be non-solo friendly. Crafting was okay, but every recipe requires you to buy some component from a vendor. Events were okay, but honestly, how many times can you make a beer run before it loses its appeal?
Even still, I bought the Mines of Moria and Mirkwood expansions and haven't found the inclination to get to the point where I could justify the purchase. I love fantasy fiction, but (heretical as it may sound) I've never really cared for Tolkien's books, so I'm not a "fan". LOTRO is a decent game, but it's not great, unless you just have a burning desire to plod around in Middle Earth. Now Turbine seems bent on watering down the atmosphere of the game by opening the doors to a horde of players who may not know who Tolkien is, apart from the movies, and don't care. They're there to play a free game, nothing more. Forcing a multitude of "KillaX"s and "Rofldude"s on the existing playerbase does that base a great disservice.
I don't log in to my $200 investment anymore and have no desire to. Turbine has gotten all they are going to get out of me.
"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II
"People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift
Ok let me racap this in terms so people not familiar with DDO understand it. This is now WoW, Blizzard is selling you the Tier 8 Raid set(+2 tomes) on the item shop for real cash. Only that we are ingame already at the Tier 14 raid set, which is about 100 item levels higher(+3 and +4 tomes). Sure some f******* idiots will probably buy it anyway, and yes i will kiss the ground they walk on, but not because they bought that insanely cool armor, but because they are working on singlehandedly financing the next expansion.
To quote something back at you, a fool and his money are easily parted. The more fools we have buying second rate stuff at craptastic prices in the store(wohoo +20% experience for three hours, thats like awesome), the less the chance that Turbine will be forced to do a desperate money grub that will force me to quit their game. Anyone knows how fickle MMO gamers are, we are some of the most disloyal fans around anywhere.
People are stupid, thats why this buisness model works so well, not because its screwing everyone equally, but because its screwing the stupid/rich ones a lot. Those XP potions are some of the best selling items on their store, that says everything. You could either have 30 hours of +20% XP or buy a couple of dungeons you can play as often as you want even years in the future without paying anything again(they introduce dungeon scaling the next bookupdate btw, complete with lootscaleing etc).... wait let me think, what has the better value ...
And what is probably my last argument, it already happened. The whiners where there when DDO did this, said the game would be dead in a year and now look at it. Its doing better than ever before, Turbine is doing better than ever before. All you can say is "oh years from now, someday, in the far far future, they will go to far, i have seen it in my crystal ball". Didnt happen last year i say, see no reason for it to happen in the next.
OK, so let's just say we accept all your arguments above. So you are telling me that Turbine, or any DEV, is going to count all that money from the 'fools' and 'f******* idiots' and 'stupid people' and then use that money to make you content, not the fools and f******* idiots and stupid people that are making Turbine, or any dev in this situation, so wealthy? Do you really believe that? Or is it more likely that devs time will go, largely, in to direct development of more things that get the 'fools' and 'f******* idiots' and 'stupid people' to spend even more money and that even temps the non morons to spend more money too? That is the point - if you are a free player you are not what they are focused on, and since so few actually pay the bills under F2P that means most gamers are not the focus of F2P devs. Now the hybrid model helps with this a little bit but over time as they devs learn, like they do not know it going in, that anything new they add that can be sold in the cash shop or earned by long grind in game earns them more money they do it more and more, for F2P and VIPs alike.
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The idiots are happy with XP and loot pots, what do you want to make them? XXP and loooot pots? Just raise the levelcap, maybe add a new race/class and they will buy them like crazy again. Its two birds with one stone, subscribers are happy they get new content, premiums are happy because they get to buy stuff again(buying stuff releases endorphines in the brain, thats why women like shopping so much, and chocolate, things males are completly impervious agains ofc), free players are happy they can grind another bazillion favor.
Why shouldnt it work? Seems pretty much how DDO got their 500% revenue increase, just look at the most sales category on their store, its mostly consumeables. Makes sense that the consumeables sell the best, cause you have to buy them again and again.
I do not disagree with this, not entirely, in fact that is largely why I think the model is 'dangerous'. They make their money of these cash shop items, even if just from a small subset of the overall players. However, over time there is great incentive to make them more and more necessary (i.e. to make grinds longer and other such things harder without said cash shop items). So you start day one with a system that is similar (at least in some ways) for subscribers to the old model (excepting the changes that result from a cash shop and F2P being worked in) but over time the pressure takes you further and further from that point and the sub becomes more and more diminished as the cash shop is more and more emphasized. T
To the point of expansions being extras subscribers under the current model have to pay extra for that is true but you can bet your last buck that buying an expansion in a box or digital download will be a far greater value than buying all its little pieces carved up and sold individually through the cash shop. Heck, most MMOs outside a rare few include expansions with the initial box price once it has been out a couple months or more, currently LotRO is $29.99 for the original game, both expansions (MoM and SoM), and 30 days play - that is value you will never see come F2P.
So however you slice it, I just think this is a move about one thing more for the same or lots more from a few new eyes drawn in by the F2P. And over time, subscribers can rest assured they will never get the value they got under the current model and gameplay will, at least in part (and probably large part) be steered not by what is best for players and the game but what is best for generating cash shop sales.
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Well then you are in luck. If you log in once per month between now and the launch of FtP, you get 500 free points per month that you decide to log in. You don't even have to do anything, log in send out a shout "This game sucks, screw you Turbine" and log off. You still get your 500 points for that month.
Also, all of the low level book quests are now soloable. If you start one of the old group book quests solo, you get buffed up to the roughly stats of a raid boss. So far this only extends through the pre-MoM books. But you can certainly get through the end of the old books and get your free white horse. It's a nice looking horse. The storyline is pretty good too.
Finally, once FtP goes live, you will start getting 500 free Turbine points a month whether you log or not. So the longer you stay ticked and don't log or spend any of your points, the more valuable your account becomes. Theoretically you could save up and get future expansions for free.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
You know what, a couple of years ago I would have agreed with you. EA was by far the worst offender for buying up then destroying dev houses but it kept on coming back and kicking them in the ass. Then they bought BIOWARE and just continued to let them do their thing and it's worked out beautifully for them. Look the mess with activision and Infinity Ward. They went and messed up and tried to screw over IW's founders and ended up losing 3/4 of the dev house. That series is screwed now and you don't think they'll learn a lesson from that. Call of Duty is one of their most profitable franchises but without the dev team behind it that series is dead. The industry is learning, don't mess with a good thing, especially longterm moneymakers like MMO's.
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Personally i just dont see the incentive to buy loot or XP potions. If you level so slow its annoying you a 20 or even 30% boost wont change that, and players just wildly diverge on what they think is acceptable leveling speed. Loot isnt an option for me either, 95% of what you is not useful to your class anyway, atleast thats my take. You sell it and use the money to buy stuff you actually want.
Let me help you out with a couple arguments what will really annoy F2P players:
1. You cant make auctions, only bid and buy. I dont know about you, but i make alteast 70% of my cash selling crafting resources or items on the AH.
2. You cant get a horse or big house because its above your max gold limit.
3. Without selling stuff on the AH and no questrewards you wont have the cash to properly keep your craft onlevel for anything but farmer and cook, so you cant even craft items for yourself.
4. So you dont craft, what do you do if all your bags are full and your at the goldcap? Have fun destroying valuable stuff.
Those are the big problems i see, and the reason i will go premium and spend some cash. I dont much care about the quests, maybe ill buy one or two strategically placed regions like lonelands and angmar, once i get sick of those ill probably buy others for my twinks, but that might be quite some time down the road.