They try to make "everybody" happy, but end up making most of the people "sad"...
...the market needs to return to niche games that make the players of the game happy.
Instead, we bounce around subs - trying to forget, but always remembering.
If by "niche" you are referring to playstyles, well WoW makes a lot of people happy. You can't ignore that. It doesn't make ALL people happy, but that's beside the point. Look at the games that came out recently that focused mainly on PVP. They're hardly pulling in the crowds. And that can be a problem from a business perspective. Now, I'm not saying they need to hit WoW sub levels, but they need to "break even". The big question is, are they? Coming back to Eve, it is missing out on potentially being so much more than it is, and it's in a good position to introduce more gameplay elements that satisfy other playstyles without actually destroying what it already has.
If you are using the word "niche" in terms of the style and gameplay of MMO, then theres no problem with Eve keeping its "niche" but catering for more playstyles. Like I said before and unlike others, Eve has a good foundation to be a good game for differing playstyles, without it destroying any of them. Its only an irrational fear that stops others from appreciating that fact.
Lets use a crude example for Eve. Now, Eve has a good PVP experience, no one can deny that. it has a good crafting / economic synergy, again no argument there. However, its PVE side is weak and shallow. So why couldn't it be developed to exist in the same game without encroaching on PVP? Lore, mission arcs, npc corporation espionage, all taking place in hi-sec space.
The beauty of that is, that some mission arcs could send players across wide distances and through different security-level sectors, thus encouraging players to partake in a little PVP.
They try to make "everybody" happy, but end up making most of the people "sad"...
...the market needs to return to niche games that make the players of the game happy.
Instead, we bounce around subs - trying to forget, but always remembering.
The problem is if you make your game too niche, more people will be turned off by your game than playing it. Most big time devs are looking to maximize their investment in these games. You think Bioware is investing a ton of money in ToR to only appeal to a small number of gamers?
They try to make "everybody" happy, but end up making most of the people "sad"...
...the market needs to return to niche games that make the players of the game happy.
Instead, we bounce around subs - trying to forget, but always remembering.
The problem is if you make your game too niche, more people will be turned off by your game than playing it. Most big time devs are looking to maximize their investment in these games. You think Bioware is investing a ton of money in ToR to only appeal to a small number of gamers?
It's funny you know, some people can't wrap their heads around the fact that these people who make MMO's are companies and companies exist for one thing: to make a profit.
Unfortunately times have changed, and so have costs and expectations. You can't make an MMO on a shoe-string budget no more. So, the higher the expectations, the higher the budget and the higher the number of subs and box sales required for you to consider your product as a financial "success". This concept is something that some people on these forums can't understand. They think because EQ1 and Eve launched to a specific niche, then it can be done again years later.
They try to make "everybody" happy, but end up making most of the people "sad"...
...the market needs to return to niche games that make the players of the game happy.
Instead, we bounce around subs - trying to forget, but always remembering.
The problem is if you make your game too niche, more people will be turned off by your game than playing it. Most big time devs are looking to maximize their investment in these games. You think Bioware is investing a ton of money in ToR to only appeal to a small number of gamers?
CCP is not Bioware and EVE has been growing more and more every year as in player base and the game itself.
What you fail to see is that EVE is a type of game that could last for 10 to 20 more years they can upgrade the graphics when it starts to get dated as they have already done so and the game keeps evolving unlike WoW in which you have an army of Devs working on the yearly spoon fed content push. EVE adds Systems and opportunities to game.
As for the care bears in game the high sec mission runner has the safest and easiest ride in game and personally i think it needs to be fixed and put into its proper place as it ruins the games risk vrs reward factor and hurts other career paths and i think that was an attempt to get more players and it has failed cause they just keep wanting more and more with no effort so imo that needs to be fixed and those players need to adapt or die...
EVE players and CCP do not want you, the game draws in a certain type of player that wants an eve type game and for that CCP advertises a bunch and the for every 1000 people that try it. ill say if 10 to 20 people stay that is good imo cause those players will be in game off and on for years. nobody ever really leaves forever. so when you find EVE and then you want EVE you love it.. or in most cases its not for you.... EVE will not change for you!
It's funny you know, some people can't wrap their heads around the fact that these people who make MMO's are companies and companies exist for one thing: to make a profit.
Unfortunately times have changed, and so have costs and expectations. You can't make an MMO on a shoe-string budget no more. So, the higher the expectations, the higher the budget and the higher the number of subs and box sales required for you to consider your product as a financial "success"
Well, taking a look at the market - they are pretty much failing by doing what they are, no? Which is what I said...no?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
CCP is not Bioware and EVE has been growing more and more every year as in player base and the game itself.
What you fail to see is that EVE is a type of game that could last for 10 to 20 more years they can upgrade the graphics when it starts to get dated as they have already done so and the game keeps evolving unlike WoW in which you have an army of Devs working on the yearly spoon fed content push. EVE adds Systems and opportunities to game.
As for the care bears in game the high sec mission runner has the safest and easiest ride in game and personally i think it needs to be fixed and put into its proper place as it ruins the games risk vrs reward factor and hurts other career paths and i think that was an attempt to get more players and it has failed cause they just keep wanting more and more with no effort so imo that needs to be fixed and those players need to adapt or die...
EVE players and CCP do not want you, the game draws in a certain type of player that wants and eve type game and for that CCP advertises a bunch and the for every 1000 people that try if 1 stays that is good imo cause that one player will be in game off and on for years. nobody ever really leaves forever. so when you find EVE and then you want EVE you love it.. or in most cases its not for you.... EVE will not change for you!
Thank you for proving the points I made earlier: Irrational fear of the unknown and a resistance to any possibility of change because you cannot understand it. You know, part of me is wishing hard that JGE and BP do indeed take the concepts used in Eve and refine them whilst allowing for depth in multiple playstyles. Only then will people like yourself wise up to the fact that Eve's days of enjoying being the only player in town are rapidly diminishing.
And no, I'm not saying that JGE and BP are "Eve Killers". But they very well hit CCP were it hurts : in their bank balance. And what will happen then? Well......I'll leave that for you to work out
It's funny you know, some people can't wrap their heads around the fact that these people who make MMO's are companies and companies exist for one thing: to make a profit.
Unfortunately times have changed, and so have costs and expectations. You can't make an MMO on a shoe-string budget no more. So, the higher the expectations, the higher the budget and the higher the number of subs and box sales required for you to consider your product as a financial "success"
Well, taking a look at the market - they are pretty much failing by doing what they are, no? Which is what I said...no?
Erm no. Your implication is that moving away from tight niches is a bad idea. Whereas if you look at some of the "niche" games released more recently, they aren't exactly ambassadors for niche MMO game design based around a specific playstyle.
Like the saying goes "Don't put all your eggs in one basket".
If you appeal to a greater audience then you have a greater chance at success. Eve launched to a small audience with a small budget and a small development team. Now, look at the likes of Darkfall and ask yourself "If Eve launched in the same way today, would it launch with the same sub levels as it does now?"
Chances are, it wouldn't. The point is that what worked 7 years ago doesn't mean it will work now. The playfield is different and so are the customers.
CCP is not Bioware and EVE has been growing more and more every year as in player base and the game itself.
What you fail to see is that EVE is a type of game that could last for 10 to 20 more years they can upgrade the graphics when it starts to get dated as they have already done so and the game keeps evolving unlike WoW in which you have an army of Devs working on the yearly spoon fed content push. EVE adds Systems and opportunities to game.
As for the care bears in game the high sec mission runner has the safest and easiest ride in game and personally i think it needs to be fixed and put into its proper place as it ruins the games risk vrs reward factor and hurts other career paths and i think that was an attempt to get more players and it has failed cause they just keep wanting more and more with no effort so imo that needs to be fixed and those players need to adapt or die...
EVE players and CCP do not want you, the game draws in a certain type of player that wants and eve type game and for that CCP advertises a bunch and the for every 1000 people that try if 1 stays that is good imo cause that one player will be in game off and on for years. nobody ever really leaves forever. so when you find EVE and then you want EVE you love it.. or in most cases its not for you.... EVE will not change for you!
Thank you for proving the points I made earlier: Irrational fear of the unknown and a resistance to any possibility of change because you cannot understand it. You know, part of me is wishing hard that JGE and BP do indeed take the concepts used in Eve and refine them whilst allowing for depth in multiple playstyles. Only then will people like yourself wise up to the fact that Eve's days of enjoying being the only player in town are rapidly diminishing.
And no, I'm not saying that JGE and BP are "Eve Killers". But they very well hit CCP were it hurts : in their bank balance. And what will happen then? Well......I'll leave that for you to work out
Irrational fear lol!
I am guessing you have not played the game much or for long, the economy and industry are a very real part of the EVE universe if you look at the big picture EVE is very fragile they cant just throw in all kinds if happy joy content without a purpose or need.. every system added serves another system if one system gives too much reward then others fail if that happens things do not get built or mined and empires that took years to build fall.
IE Moon mining and TII production, PI now for Fuels and Sov structures and TII, high sec,low sec,null sec asteroids all needed for TI and TII production. Mission runners get ISK for bounties,mission and ruined the TI crafting market with TI loot drops and also hurt miners as they can crush mods and get the mats needed for production.
EVE is not a simple minded dev team pushing out new shiny fun fun things to do without any purpose. In dominion as being a part of a 0,0 Sov Holding alliance ya it was pretty interesting to see what was going to happen with now paying for Sov and the R64 nerf. but we adapted and market went stable till this new patch and still we need to see how it flattens out with all the new mats and systems in game now..
Your long winded arguments are really pointless as you have no true understanding of the game and then you call it an irrational fear in which proves to me you are the one who cannot wrap your brain around a game that has no purple loot items or rewards.
AS for the game itself they are doing Dust 514 a console ground combat game in the EVE universe,Station walking and who knows maybe even a ground combat system for the space players like myself someday and TIII frigates and im sure more i just dont care much cause i enjoy the game very much and will continue to do so.. but i thank you for wasting yours and my time caring so much about CCP's future but im pretty sure they are doing ok!!
As in EVE and this thread you will not be Remembered or Missed.
But for the LOLs can you point out on the picture where that evil piwate touched you
Sigh. Please drop the defensive posture and leave your rage hormones at home. Your attitude is neither warranted nor justified in this thread.
Lol, again you validate another one of my points in that as a typical "closed minded" individual who happens to love Eve, you idolise Eve so much that it cannot occur to you that it could have faults. Faults which could be addressed IF CCP decided to do it. For instance, it isn't impossible to cater for other playstyles more whilst maintaining core gameplay for your present one. Regardless of your limited capacity to appreciate concepts that don't appeal to you specifically.
The complexities and ramifications of adding ANY new element to an MMO (no matter which one) is not something to be taken lightly. Never for one second did I imply that such an undertaking would be relatively simple and quick. However, the benefits of such an additional element may give enough justification to adding it nonetheless. The devs won't just say "It can't be done because the system is so complex!" They'd investigate the proposal and examine it from all angles to see whether its worth investing time and resources into it. In that respect Eve is no different to any other large MMO title.
So, please, don't try to preach how Eve is such a goddamn high and mighty MMO that cannot, and should not, need to evolve. Because that is complete and utter BS. Businesses and their products need to evolve as the market does. Failure to do so is risky.
Oh yes and one last thing, if you don't like the subject matter, DON'T bother joining in the conversation because you'll just sound like a rabid fanboi when you lash out at people. And above all else Read the title of the thread and the OP before jumping in to defend your beloved game for no other reason than to shout your mouth off. People in this thread are discussing how they disliked the game but liked the IDEA of the game. Yours is the post that isn't warranted. Not mine.
Erm no. Your implication is that moving away from tight niches is a bad idea. Whereas if you look at some of the "niche" games released more recently, they aren't exactly ambassadors for niche MMO game design based around a specific playstyle.
Like the saying goes "Don't put all your eggs in one basket".
If you appeal to a greater audience then you have a greater chance at success. Eve launched to a small audience with a small budget and a small development team. Now, look at the likes of Darkfall and ask yourself "If Eve launched in the same way today, would it launch with the same sub levels as it does now?"
Chances are, it wouldn't. The point is that what worked 7 years ago doesn't mean it will work now. The playfield is different and so are the customers.
The implication was in what you had originally quoted that I said - that one-size fits all games fail.
If you look at most games released more recently, none of them are exactly doing that hot. With all the discussion of more of them going F2P, they are hoping for the Farmville Factor of fools and their money are soon parted to try to sustain economic viability.
WoW is an anomaly. They built off of their solid foundation of repetitive game play and game lobbies with Warcraft, Starcraft, and Diablo to create WoW...a repetitive game that is little more than a game lobby. People still play Warcraft, Starcraft, and Diablo...
You can easily look around to see the vast number of players that are calling for "this" but not "that" and those that are calling for "that" and not "this". Average game company muddles through trying to do a combination of "this" and "that"...then are left to wonder why they fail. The "this" crowd did not want "that" and the "that" crowd did not want "this"....
If the same company created Game This and Game That... guess what might just happen?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Virus I can appreciate what you're saying, but I could use the same argument to point out how certain "niche" games that were released more recently than WoW and Eve are also struggling for similar reasons. Darkfall and Mortal Online cater to a specific gameplay style and thus it could be argued are following in the footsteps of the likes of Eve. However, they are not exactly getting good reviews.
I will agree though that part of WoWs success can be attributed to various things such as timing etc. And the same could be said of Eve.
But, IF both WoW and Eve to be launched in the next 12 months, would they enjoy the same level of popularity that they do at the moment? I don't think so. Which is why devs have decided not to "put all their eggs in one basket" and thus attempt to reduce the risk by trying to cater for an audience that spans multiple playstyles in the hope that they will gather a large enough playerbase.
Niche's are all very nice, but if the audience isn't big enough to launch a NEW product into them, then they may not be considered a viable entity to invest into. Regardless of how much a certain percentage of MMO players scream for it.
In short, there is no perfect formula for creating the ultimate MMO with a huge playerbase, however there are ways to increase the possibility of making one that is considered financially successful (dependant on the restraints imposed on the project of course).
After all, more options = potentially happier playerbase = potentially more money = potentially longer lifespan of the product.
Tarka, but DF and MO fall into the category of just being bad games period. They have issues that go far beyond their trying to fit in a niche. Expectations have changed in what a game will have at release - that is why I discount many games, because they are doomed to failure.
Would EVE do as well today as it did at launch? Most likely it would. When I started playing EVE, they had not yet hit 14k concurrent users. They had a pissant amount of subs compared to other games. It has taken a long time for EVE to get the subs it has.
I think WoW would still do as well as it did were it launched today as it was back then - because it would still be building off of the brand. If you took away Warcraft, Starcraft, and Diablo...then tried to launch WoW; it might very well be a different story. In a sense, Blizzard then was a lot like Apple is today. They had beaten EQ1's peak sub numbers within 2.5 months or so... not because the game was awesomesauce by any means (I still hate the Fisher-Price graphics myself, but I still have to say I prefer Vanilla to BC/WotLK - even as I jones a bit to get in for some of that game lobby action I complain about - it passes the time with a little more substance than playing Bejeweled, so I resub a couple of times a year).
What game that has been recently that tries to cater to a multitude of playstyles, player desires, etc... is doing well? They are setting their expectations pretty high and then floundering. Go in with realistic expectations of your market...profit. No, you're not going to be WoWtastic... then again, the market is showing that nobody else is either. So you could put a game out to make a decent profit or you could put out a game where you hope to recoup most of your costs before you end up pulling the plug...
As for your other conversation going on there about EVE, I agree that neither CCP nor EVE are perfect. I still bitch about how illogical ninja salvaging is as far as the game mechanics are concerned. FW was abandoned. CCP has a history of having "nifty" ideas and crappy implementation. Look at all the crap with PI. Then there is all the talk about Incarna, how can anybody seriously expect that not to fall in with all the other "nifty" ideas...eh?
Still, each time the Alliance Tournament comes around - I get that itch to play again. Last year or so, I actually nerdragequit the game. I reprocessed everything that I had - sold it at whatever price was being paid - and mailed the isk to somebody that had acted as FC in a few FW runs because of the crap they put up with from others (female FC, no way - way). I made an alt on my other account the director of my corp that I created not long after starting the game so that I could delete the character. My sub expired before I could delete him...earlier this year I got a 3 day thing to go back. I went back for a day or two to verify the stupidity of why I had quit was still there...and just uninstalled the game.
I think EVE is one of the better games out there, but I think CCP doing the "nifty" ideas thing is actually damaging the game, doing far more harm than good.
I changed to my EVE avatar because honestly, lol - my normal avatar pretty much looks like a troll and I was getting tired of all the fanbois of the various games just saying that I was trolling...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Sigh. Please drop the defensive posture and leave your rage hormones at home. Your attitude is neither warranted nor justified in this thread.
Lol, again you validate another one of my points in that as a typical "closed minded" individual who happens to love Eve, you idolise Eve so much that it cannot occur to you that it could have faults. Faults which could be addressed IF CCP decided to do it. For instance, it isn't impossible to cater for other playstyles more whilst maintaining core gameplay for your present one. Regardless of your limited capacity to appreciate concepts that don't appeal to you specifically.
The complexities and ramifications of adding ANY new element to an MMO (no matter which one) is not something to be taken lightly. Never for one second did I imply that such an undertaking would be relatively simple and quick. However, the benefits of such an additional element may give enough justification to doing it nonetheless. The devs won't just say "It can't be done because the system is so complex!" They'd investigate the proposal and examine it from all angles to see whether its worth looking into.
So, please, don't try to preach how Eve is such a goddamn high and mighty MMO that cannot, and should not, need to evolve. Because that is complete and utter BS. Businesses and their products need to evolve as the market does. Failure to do so is risky.
Oh yes and one last thing, if you don't like the subject matter, DON'T bother joining in the conversation because you'll just sound like a rabid fanboi when you lash out at people. And above all else Read the title of the thread and the OP before jumping in to defend your beloved game for no other reason than to shout your mouth off. People in this thread are discussing how they disliked the game but liked the IDEA of the game. Yours is the post that isn't warranted. Not mine.
you are really full of yourself but since i am bored i ll entertain the idea.
First of all EVE and CCP will always Evolve ive been in game for about 4 years now and it has changed more than any other MMO i have played and 98% of the changes have been for the better. although the risk of an SWG NGE falure is lurking around every corner but that could be said about every MMO.
What you are saying about playing styles... well everything is PVP the markets to actual fighting but im sure you know this. I get what you are saying but CCP and players really dont give a damn. even if they had 2 mill subs and a army of Devs they would just add more systems and ships. I dont know why you cant wrap your brain around the idea of a MMO company that does not want the PVE raid crowd to put it simple they just do not fit in the game and would be a total waste of man power to do so as you can never keep that crowd happy. they will rip through it in a few weeks and scream for more besides we are in frikkin space ships i mean how many guristas can you shoot they did try Level 5's and high end plexes in 0,0 such as the maze and what not and most of the player base didnt care this is not why WE play eve. CCP is more about keeping the current players happy instead of trying to get other play styles as they are a small and very profitable company and can afford this motto.
When i started playing EVE i would log in and 7k to 10k would be on server on weekends lol... during the week it was like 4k to 8k and now i login its between 38k to 46k . the game is not going anywhere despite what is being released. EVE has its people and numbers slowly grow and it will always be this way they are not trying to hit a million overnight or be the next WoW they are just building a world for people who play EVE and who like that type of game play, no other MMO company offers.
So i can say man the game is not for you and thats ok so move on nobody cares we can argue all you want and at the end of it i log into an awesome game and you are off to some other thread to moan about something as for posting in this thread yes the idea of EVE is cool but the OP didnt even begin to see what the world offers and some of us are trying to explain that you have to look for it but oh well i guess but you posting in this thread when you actually hate the game is LOL. why so mad??
EVE is more of a simulator it can be boring at times and it can be amazing as well. please tell me another mmo that can have 1500 to 1700 people in one system having a fleet fight over Sov space, actually off the top of my head i dont know of another MMO that has player Sov or owned turf that can be taken by other players.
and you can go on and on and i really dont care cause WE the EVE players in the now and Future dont want your kind stinking up our game with your typical MMO idea's we are and will be happy in our stupid little sand box!
In all honesty, MaxionVoX - how many of those 1500-1700 people are going to be spending 15 minutes to an hour or so looking at a blank screen waiting for it to load?
That is one of the places that I sincerely wish CCP would take a look at improving the game.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I think most EVE players realize the game is not perfect, and certainly could do with some changes and improvements.
The problem is, there is a finite pool of finanical and human resources and CCP has to decide what efforts are worth investing in that will bring about an increase in subs w/o destroying the core player base in the meantime.
I've seen the comment 'irrational fear of change' used several times in this thread. Ask any player of DAOC if such fear is really unjustified. Game developers have proven in countless situations that the wrong change at the wrong time can kill their games more surely than any other factor.
For all the vaunted success of WOW, take a look at how many players are not playing it, their number is legion and they are looking for something else instead.
Some of the ideas mentioned in this thread seem sound at first, but on closer inspection there's probably a reason why CCP hasn't gone forward with them.
Ship customization is one item mentioned. For the same reasons that Lineage 2 didn't offer much customization in gear, I'm sure CCP keeps this out of the game because it would hinder the games ability to have large scale battles because it would have far more data to keep track of for each player. The smoothest PVP games in the world are first person shooters which offer very limited character customization for exactly this reason.
Know this, CCP isn't just a bunch of drunken icelanders (well, ok, they are, but thats besides the point) who don't think any of this through. I'm sure they've considered and tossed aside thousands of ideas to improve the game and have decided to deliver the ones we have so far based on a variety of financial and gameplay considerations.
I agree with others, no game can be everything to everyone, and attempts to create them such as WOW leaves you with a bland, average gaming experience that doesn't appeal to me personally, regardless whether 11M other folks love it to death.
I am looking foward to Incarna somewhat, but if it never comes no big deal, I don't play EVE to walk around in stations. If I want to perhaps I'll play SWTOR which will probably have a great story line, even if the Fleet to Fleet combat model is a bit weak.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Did you actually READ the title of this thread before jumping in to defend your beloved game and tell people "how its not for them"? Another point I made earlier by the way, thanks for that
Do you actually COMPREHEND what is being discussed in this thread, or did you just feel so vunerable that you felt compelled to lash out at those who may not feel that Eve gives all that it could?
Lastly, where did I say that I hated Eve? I don't hate Eve. I played it and I found it to be good in some elements but not to my personal taste in others. I can appreciate how a certain playstyle likes it but then I can also see where its gameplay is weak. That doesn't mean for one second that I hate it. In fact, I often use Eve as being an example of good crafting / economic synergy (I'm sure VirusDancer has seen me quote it a few times lately). In actuality, the fact that I can appreciate both sides means that I can remain objective about the game whilst remain open minded to the possibility of where the weaknesses could be addressed. Which is unfortunately something you cannot say about yourself.
But sure, feel free to lash out like you're under attack and we're somehow questioning your validity to play Eve, because quite frankly it's all in your (closed) mind.
Now run along and learn to read thread titles before you post. That's a good lad
I think most EVE players realize the game is not perfect, and certainly could do with some changes and improvements.
The problem is, there is a finite pool of finanical and human resources and CCP has to decide what efforts are worth investing in that will bring about an increase in subs w/o destroying the core player base in the meantime.
I've seen the comment 'irrational fear of change' used several times in this thread. Ask any player of DAOC if such fear is really unjustified. Game developers have proven in countless situations that the wrong change at the wrong time can kill their games more surely than any other factor.
For all the vaunted success of WOW, take a look at how many players are not playing it, their number is legion and they are looking for something else instead.
Some of the ideas mentioned in this thread seem sound at first, but on closer inspection there's probably a reason why CCP hasn't gone forward with them.
Ship customization is one item mentioned. For the same reasons that Lineage 2 didn't offer much customization in gear, I'm sure CCP keeps this out of the game because it would hinder the games ability to have large scale battles because it would have far more data to keep track of for each player. The smoothest PVP games in the world are first person shooters which offer very limited character customization for exactly this reason.
Know this, CCP isn't just a bunch of drunken icelanders (well, ok, they are, but thats besides the point) who don't think any of this through. I'm sure they've considered and tossed aside thousands of ideas to improve the game and have decided to deliver the ones we have so far based on a variety of financial and gameplay considerations.
I agree with others, no game can be everything to everyone, and attempts to create them such as WOW leaves you with a bland, average gaming experience that doesn't appeal to me personally, regardless whether 11M other folks love it to death.
I am looking foward to Incarna somewhat, but if it never comes no big deal, I don't play EVE to walk around in stations. If I want to perhaps I'll play SWTOR which will probably have a great story line, even if the Fleet to Fleet combat model is a bit weak.
Thanks for attempting to bring some civilised discussion back into this thread instead of it descending into yet another flame fest. This thread is discussing ideas and thoughts surrounding what is viewed by the posters as Eve's weaknesses. Personally, I don't see any problem with such a discussion. We all know that nothing will come of it so there's no need for anyone to feel as if they're are under attack.
I do appreciate the fact that not every idea is a good one. And its highly likely that CCP have invested even a little time to examine various possibilities. After all, its their product to do with as they please, regardless of how their playerbase (or anyone else for that matter that isn't an investor) feel about the situation.
It must be tough, the devs must be under greater pressure these days than ever before. There are far more restrictions and constraints placed on MMOs for a variety of reasons whether they are financial, what customers have come to expect or what the competition (if any) is up to. Subsequently, each decision must have to be carefully scrutinised before given the "go ahead" for design and implementation. But sometimes, the wrong decision is where no decision is made at all.
Who knows, perhaps Eve will ride out the storm that is coming in the form of competition without having to adapt? Or maybe it may not weather it too well at all.
In all honesty, MaxionVoX - how many of those 1500-1700 people are going to be spending 15 minutes to an hour or so looking at a blank screen waiting for it to load?
That is one of the places that I sincerely wish CCP would take a look at improving the game.
Well Im in RZR the Fight in H-W when the SC tried to lock the NC down was actually pretty good a bit of the module lag but the fight was alot of fun.. in fact it was great when local was around 800 to 1400... It peaked at 1900 and that was kinda a pain but workable.
Pre dominion like during Delve II we had a 6 hour fight with 1500 + in local and that was amazing the amount of lag was really light compared you just had to turn off brackets as 1000s of drones scattered if you turned them you would freeze and have to log off and since then we had many large battles between 500 to 900 in local with no problem.
Then Dominion hit and we couldnt even defend geminate black screen jump ins and turkey shoots we even tried to get in system before Atlas and Co and props to those guys for being in system 8 to 10 hours before the RF timers ended lol.. we took our lumps on the head and fell back to Pure Blind and Tribute.
And now the 6 Titan NC drama the Titans jumped but didnt jump so they get killed then spawn at exit system after DT lol WTF!!!so we need to see how this drama plays out but even if we loose the titans which i think would be bunk but its a step forward in the game to getting this issue fixed and thats all that really matters.
So ya the issue is a problem and i do have faith in CCP to at least make it workable as of now its a risky thing getting in a 1000 ship fight it could go very bad real fast.
But these issues only effect the null sec large alliances like myself and really they are only an issue during SOV wars cause really most of the time its like 200 to 400 for large fleets.
I feel much like the OP, and after trying to get into EVE three different times in the last couple years, I gave up.
The issue is not the game though, it's me. I feel disconnected from my own toon, since I am essentially a ship. Related but even bigger is the issue that I see space travel and space combat in an MMO as a gameplay feature, not the entire game. I need to be on the ground, running around exploring, fighting people and mobs, etc.
A good example of an unpolished version of this was Star Wars Galaxies. I lived and played on the ground most of the time, but if I wanted to spend weeks in space doing missions and PvP, I could. I could also choose to fly to the limited number of planets in SWG. I liked doing this because it felt more real to me than just zoning.
If EVE had a ground game as good as the space game, I would be all over it. Maybe some year down the road they will, because lets face it, CCP kicks ass. That about sums up my feelings toward EVE. I am a huge fan of CCP, and how they have handled and evolved EVE for their players. I really wish they could take the successful sandbox formula and morph it into a ground based game for those of us who don't get into the space only type game.
So far, all the indy companies out there who have tried to make a modern sandbox have pretty much failed. If anyone could do it, I think CCP could.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I think most EVE players realize the game is not perfect, and certainly could do with some changes and improvements.
The problem is, there is a finite pool of finanical and human resources and CCP has to decide what efforts are worth investing in that will bring about an increase in subs w/o destroying the core player base in the meantime.
I've seen the comment 'irrational fear of change' used several times in this thread. Ask any player of DAOC if such fear is really unjustified. Game developers have proven in countless situations that the wrong change at the wrong time can kill their games more surely than any other factor.
For all the vaunted success of WOW, take a look at how many players are not playing it, their number is legion and they are looking for something else instead.
Some of the ideas mentioned in this thread seem sound at first, but on closer inspection there's probably a reason why CCP hasn't gone forward with them.
Ship customization is one item mentioned. For the same reasons that Lineage 2 didn't offer much customization in gear, I'm sure CCP keeps this out of the game because it would hinder the games ability to have large scale battles because it would have far more data to keep track of for each player. The smoothest PVP games in the world are first person shooters which offer very limited character customization for exactly this reason.
Know this, CCP isn't just a bunch of drunken icelanders (well, ok, they are, but thats besides the point) who don't think any of this through. I'm sure they've considered and tossed aside thousands of ideas to improve the game and have decided to deliver the ones we have so far based on a variety of financial and gameplay considerations.
I agree with others, no game can be everything to everyone, and attempts to create them such as WOW leaves you with a bland, average gaming experience that doesn't appeal to me personally, regardless whether 11M other folks love it to death.
I am looking foward to Incarna somewhat, but if it never comes no big deal, I don't play EVE to walk around in stations. If I want to perhaps I'll play SWTOR which will probably have a great story line, even if the Fleet to Fleet combat model is a bit weak.
Thanks for attempting to bring some civilised discussion back into this thread instead of it descending into yet another flame fest. This thread is discussing ideas and thoughts surrounding what is viewed by the posters as Eve's weaknesses. Personally, I don't see any problem with such a discussion. We all know that nothing will come of it so there's no need for anyone to feel as if they're are under attack.
I do appreciate the fact that not every idea is a good one. And its highly likely that CCP have invested even a little time to examine various possibilities. After all, its their product to do with as they please, regardless of how their playerbase (or anyone else for that matter that isn't an investor) feel about the situation.
It must be tough, the devs must be under greater pressure these days than ever before. There are far more restrictions and constraints placed on MMOs for a variety of reasons whether they are financial, what customers have come to expect or what the competition (if any) is up to. Subsequently, each decision must have to be carefully scrutinised before given the "go ahead" for design and implementation. But sometimes, the wrong decision is where no decision is made at all.
Who knows, perhaps Eve will ride out the storm that is coming in the form of competition without having to adapt? Or maybe it may not weather it too well at all.
What is this competition you speak of? What a FTP game like BP i think its safe to say that will fail when it comes to pulling people away from EVE. i do believe it is going to be a heavy instance type of game as well which after the STO episode that idea has lost appeal for me and im sure others feel the same.
Jump Gate Evolution if ever released will be cool. i didnt read the E3 report on it but i did hear somebody in my corp saying it was like gonna be more like Wing Commander type of combat in a MMO. I am sure it will be fun but im betting on a lack of depth and be more of a action shooter. Fun for a while but no EVE and again Fail taking away the EVE player base if anything i see corps and alliances from EVE playing it just for some zerg fest action but nothing full time.
Umm anything Fantasy is out for me anyways i can only get into Sci Fi and i think most EVE players feel the same about this.
The only one i see as a threat and i really dont want to call it that but it could change the MMO world if they can deliver. The Bioware SWTOR thing kinda excites me a bit but with the WoW crowd still not locked up in Gulag i dont see them happy without the game being a WoW clone. SWG was my first MMO and was unhappy with every game that wasnt like SWG till i found EVE, so i kinda understand that. WoW is many peoples first MMO but i hope they can accept it for what it is and on its own and i hope the SWG vets Pre CE and NGE dont compare the new game to it. But the game could just Suck we dont know yet..as for EVE players hell a good MMO is a good MMO and bioware makes some fun games so hell if it works it might kill every game
So imo EVE is fine and will be for at least for the next few years anyway.
I feel much like the OP, and after trying to get into EVE three different times in the last couple years, I gave up.
The issue is not the game though, it's me. I feel disconnected from my own toon, since I am essentially a ship. Related but even bigger is the issue that I see space travel and space combat in an MMO as a gameplay feature, not the entire game. I need to be on the ground, running around exploring, fighting people and mobs, etc.
A good example of an unpolished version of this was Star Wars Galaxies. I lived and played on the ground most of the time, but if I wanted to spend weeks in space doing missions and PvP, I could. I could also choose to fly to the limited number of planets in SWG. I liked doing this because it felt more real to me than just zoning.
If EVE had a ground game as good as the space game, I would be all over it. Maybe some year down the road they will, because lets face it, CCP kicks ass. That about sums up my feelings toward EVE. I am a huge fan of CCP, and how they have handled and evolved EVE for their players. I really wish they could take the successful sandbox formula and morph it into a ground based game for those of us who don't get into the space only type game.
So far, all the indy companies out there who have tried to make a modern sandbox have pretty much failed. If anyone could do it, I think CCP could.
See, this is along the lines of something that I was either saying in this thread (probably this thread, but I'm asleep at the keyboard)....where instead of CCP trying to get people like you to play EVE, if they were to go ahead and develop Game That to go with the Game This they already have... they could do well in the market on multiple fronts.
As has been said, EVE is not for everybody - they should not try to make EVE for everybody; but if they look at what the people did like from EVE and look around at the current market and what players are saying...tada, they could definitely score themselves a nice subscription base for their efforts.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I feel much like the OP, and after trying to get into EVE three different times in the last couple years, I gave up.
The issue is not the game though, it's me. I feel disconnected from my own toon, since I am essentially a ship. Related but even bigger is the issue that I see space travel and space combat in an MMO as a gameplay feature, not the entire game. I need to be on the ground, running around exploring, fighting people and mobs, etc.
A good example of an unpolished version of this was Star Wars Galaxies. I lived and played on the ground most of the time, but if I wanted to spend weeks in space doing missions and PvP, I could. I could also choose to fly to the limited number of planets in SWG. I liked doing this because it felt more real to me than just zoning.
If EVE had a ground game as good as the space game, I would be all over it. Maybe some year down the road they will, because lets face it, CCP kicks ass. That about sums up my feelings toward EVE. I am a huge fan of CCP, and how they have handled and evolved EVE for their players. I really wish they could take the successful sandbox formula and morph it into a ground based game for those of us who don't get into the space only type game.
So far, all the indy companies out there who have tried to make a modern sandbox have pretty much failed. If anyone could do it, I think CCP could.
See, this is along the lines of something that I was either saying in this thread (probably this thread, but I'm asleep at the keyboard)....where instead of CCP trying to get people like you to play EVE, if they were to go ahead and develop Game That to go with the Game This they already have... they could do well in the market on multiple fronts.
As has been said, EVE is not for everybody - they should not try to make EVE for everybody; but if they look at what the people did like from EVE and look around at the current market and what players are saying...tada, they could definitely score themselves a nice subscription base for their efforts.
I agree with you and it's amazing how a good percentage of Eve players are totally against any change, even if that means it will bring in more players. I don't think they should carebear up Eve either, quite the opposite. But there are things they could do to enhance the game to bring in more players without radically changing the game. I would say that if you listed the top reasons why people leave Eve after trying it multiple times, excluding the people that just want to 'WoW' it up, has to be how disjointed they feel from their character. At times it feels like you're playing a strategy game more than an MMORPG and perhaps that's the whole point of the game. It just doesn't make that gameplay that engaging all the time.
I agree with you and it's amazing how a good percentage of Eve players are totally against any change, even if that means it will bring in more players. I don't think they should carebear up Eve either, quite the opposite. But there are things they could do to enhance the game to bring in more players without radically changing the game. I would say that if you listed the top reasons why people leave Eve after trying it multiple times, excluding the people that just want to 'WoW' it up, has to be how disjointed they feel from their character. At times it feels like you're playing a strategy game more than an MMORPG and perhaps that's the whole point of the game. It just doesn't make that gameplay that engaging all the time.
Again, I don't think there's really all that many EVE players out there who really are totally against any change. I've yet to meet a person who doesn't think there's quite a few things that should be changed about EVE, but the difference is, whether the change brings in more subs is not the primary deciding factor in creating their wish list.
As far as a particular change not radically altering the game play, that's where the debate really sets in. Even what appears to be like a small change on the surface, such as the recent modifcations made to the games ship insurance plan triggers firestorms of forum threads over how it will either totally save or totally destroy the game.
Incarna (walking in stations) is hotly debated because although people realize it might go a long way to bring in people who can't identify with their ship, many feel it diverts valuable resources from issues and changes that the current player base feels is more worthy, such as solving the lag in large fleet battles or bringing T3 Frigates or Battleships into the game. Also there is the belief by many (which I happen to share) that if someone isn't playing EVE right now for all the great features and game mechanics that it currently has, just being able to walk in stations isn't going to be enough for them to stick around long term.
We all agree that MMO's need to change and evolve to survive, but the real trick is in the execution and far too often change works against a games success rather than promotes it hence the wariness of the current player base towards radical alterations that appear to "wow-ify" the gameplay.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I agree with you and it's amazing how a good percentage of Eve players are totally against any change, even if that means it will bring in more players. I don't think they should carebear up Eve either, quite the opposite. But there are things they could do to enhance the game to bring in more players without radically changing the game. I would say that if you listed the top reasons why people leave Eve after trying it multiple times, excluding the people that just want to 'WoW' it up, has to be how disjointed they feel from their character. At times it feels like you're playing a strategy game more than an MMORPG and perhaps that's the whole point of the game. It just doesn't make that gameplay that engaging all the time.
It is a strategy game. You could call it a strategic MMORPG. It does not have the quick fix of a more action orientated MMORPG. It does have higher consequences for foolish actions or mistakes than a casual MMORPG. It requires some planning in what you are going to do. That is generally one of the reasons that people like it compared to other games.
You have to think about many of your actions, not just jump into a game lobby for a quick fix of fun. Yes, you can login and run some random missions while checking on other things - but when it comes to most things in EVE, that is not the case.
There is nothing stopping a person from roleplaying in EVE. There are some pretty creepy RP corps in the game that make RP guilds in other games look half-assed.
Having a humanoid avatar is not going to change the core mechanics of the game. If a person does not like how EVE is, being able to spin a toon instead of spinning a ship ain't gonna fix that.
EVE is EVE. Yes, it needs fixes for certain things and has room for growth...but with EVE being EVE. Not EVE being something other than it is.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Comments
If by "niche" you are referring to playstyles, well WoW makes a lot of people happy. You can't ignore that. It doesn't make ALL people happy, but that's beside the point. Look at the games that came out recently that focused mainly on PVP. They're hardly pulling in the crowds. And that can be a problem from a business perspective. Now, I'm not saying they need to hit WoW sub levels, but they need to "break even". The big question is, are they? Coming back to Eve, it is missing out on potentially being so much more than it is, and it's in a good position to introduce more gameplay elements that satisfy other playstyles without actually destroying what it already has.
If you are using the word "niche" in terms of the style and gameplay of MMO, then theres no problem with Eve keeping its "niche" but catering for more playstyles. Like I said before and unlike others, Eve has a good foundation to be a good game for differing playstyles, without it destroying any of them. Its only an irrational fear that stops others from appreciating that fact.
Lets use a crude example for Eve. Now, Eve has a good PVP experience, no one can deny that. it has a good crafting / economic synergy, again no argument there. However, its PVE side is weak and shallow. So why couldn't it be developed to exist in the same game without encroaching on PVP? Lore, mission arcs, npc corporation espionage, all taking place in hi-sec space.
The beauty of that is, that some mission arcs could send players across wide distances and through different security-level sectors, thus encouraging players to partake in a little PVP.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
The problem is if you make your game too niche, more people will be turned off by your game than playing it. Most big time devs are looking to maximize their investment in these games. You think Bioware is investing a ton of money in ToR to only appeal to a small number of gamers?
It's funny you know, some people can't wrap their heads around the fact that these people who make MMO's are companies and companies exist for one thing: to make a profit.
Unfortunately times have changed, and so have costs and expectations. You can't make an MMO on a shoe-string budget no more. So, the higher the expectations, the higher the budget and the higher the number of subs and box sales required for you to consider your product as a financial "success". This concept is something that some people on these forums can't understand. They think because EQ1 and Eve launched to a specific niche, then it can be done again years later.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
CCP is not Bioware and EVE has been growing more and more every year as in player base and the game itself.
What you fail to see is that EVE is a type of game that could last for 10 to 20 more years they can upgrade the graphics when it starts to get dated as they have already done so and the game keeps evolving unlike WoW in which you have an army of Devs working on the yearly spoon fed content push. EVE adds Systems and opportunities to game.
As for the care bears in game the high sec mission runner has the safest and easiest ride in game and personally i think it needs to be fixed and put into its proper place as it ruins the games risk vrs reward factor and hurts other career paths and i think that was an attempt to get more players and it has failed cause they just keep wanting more and more with no effort so imo that needs to be fixed and those players need to adapt or die...
EVE players and CCP do not want you, the game draws in a certain type of player that wants an eve type game and for that CCP advertises a bunch and the for every 1000 people that try it. ill say if 10 to 20 people stay that is good imo cause those players will be in game off and on for years. nobody ever really leaves forever. so when you find EVE and then you want EVE you love it.. or in most cases its not for you.... EVE will not change for you!
Well, taking a look at the market - they are pretty much failing by doing what they are, no? Which is what I said...no?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Thank you for proving the points I made earlier: Irrational fear of the unknown and a resistance to any possibility of change because you cannot understand it. You know, part of me is wishing hard that JGE and BP do indeed take the concepts used in Eve and refine them whilst allowing for depth in multiple playstyles. Only then will people like yourself wise up to the fact that Eve's days of enjoying being the only player in town are rapidly diminishing.
And no, I'm not saying that JGE and BP are "Eve Killers". But they very well hit CCP were it hurts : in their bank balance. And what will happen then? Well......I'll leave that for you to work out
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Erm no. Your implication is that moving away from tight niches is a bad idea. Whereas if you look at some of the "niche" games released more recently, they aren't exactly ambassadors for niche MMO game design based around a specific playstyle.
Like the saying goes "Don't put all your eggs in one basket".
If you appeal to a greater audience then you have a greater chance at success. Eve launched to a small audience with a small budget and a small development team. Now, look at the likes of Darkfall and ask yourself "If Eve launched in the same way today, would it launch with the same sub levels as it does now?"
Chances are, it wouldn't. The point is that what worked 7 years ago doesn't mean it will work now. The playfield is different and so are the customers.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Irrational fear lol!
I am guessing you have not played the game much or for long, the economy and industry are a very real part of the EVE universe if you look at the big picture EVE is very fragile they cant just throw in all kinds if happy joy content without a purpose or need.. every system added serves another system if one system gives too much reward then others fail if that happens things do not get built or mined and empires that took years to build fall.
IE Moon mining and TII production, PI now for Fuels and Sov structures and TII, high sec,low sec,null sec asteroids all needed for TI and TII production. Mission runners get ISK for bounties,mission and ruined the TI crafting market with TI loot drops and also hurt miners as they can crush mods and get the mats needed for production.
EVE is not a simple minded dev team pushing out new shiny fun fun things to do without any purpose. In dominion as being a part of a 0,0 Sov Holding alliance ya it was pretty interesting to see what was going to happen with now paying for Sov and the R64 nerf. but we adapted and market went stable till this new patch and still we need to see how it flattens out with all the new mats and systems in game now..
Your long winded arguments are really pointless as you have no true understanding of the game and then you call it an irrational fear in which proves to me you are the one who cannot wrap your brain around a game that has no purple loot items or rewards.
AS for the game itself they are doing Dust 514 a console ground combat game in the EVE universe,Station walking and who knows maybe even a ground combat system for the space players like myself someday and TIII frigates and im sure more i just dont care much cause i enjoy the game very much and will continue to do so.. but i thank you for wasting yours and my time caring so much about CCP's future but im pretty sure they are doing ok!!
As in EVE and this thread you will not be Remembered or Missed.
But for the LOLs can you point out on the picture where that evil piwate touched you
http://izlin.free.fr/eve/ships/hulk.jpg
Sigh. Please drop the defensive posture and leave your rage hormones at home. Your attitude is neither warranted nor justified in this thread.
Lol, again you validate another one of my points in that as a typical "closed minded" individual who happens to love Eve, you idolise Eve so much that it cannot occur to you that it could have faults. Faults which could be addressed IF CCP decided to do it. For instance, it isn't impossible to cater for other playstyles more whilst maintaining core gameplay for your present one. Regardless of your limited capacity to appreciate concepts that don't appeal to you specifically.
The complexities and ramifications of adding ANY new element to an MMO (no matter which one) is not something to be taken lightly. Never for one second did I imply that such an undertaking would be relatively simple and quick. However, the benefits of such an additional element may give enough justification to adding it nonetheless. The devs won't just say "It can't be done because the system is so complex!" They'd investigate the proposal and examine it from all angles to see whether its worth investing time and resources into it. In that respect Eve is no different to any other large MMO title.
So, please, don't try to preach how Eve is such a goddamn high and mighty MMO that cannot, and should not, need to evolve. Because that is complete and utter BS. Businesses and their products need to evolve as the market does. Failure to do so is risky.
Oh yes and one last thing, if you don't like the subject matter, DON'T bother joining in the conversation because you'll just sound like a rabid fanboi when you lash out at people. And above all else Read the title of the thread and the OP before jumping in to defend your beloved game for no other reason than to shout your mouth off. People in this thread are discussing how they disliked the game but liked the IDEA of the game. Yours is the post that isn't warranted. Not mine.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
The implication was in what you had originally quoted that I said - that one-size fits all games fail.
If you look at most games released more recently, none of them are exactly doing that hot. With all the discussion of more of them going F2P, they are hoping for the Farmville Factor of fools and their money are soon parted to try to sustain economic viability.
WoW is an anomaly. They built off of their solid foundation of repetitive game play and game lobbies with Warcraft, Starcraft, and Diablo to create WoW...a repetitive game that is little more than a game lobby. People still play Warcraft, Starcraft, and Diablo...
You can easily look around to see the vast number of players that are calling for "this" but not "that" and those that are calling for "that" and not "this". Average game company muddles through trying to do a combination of "this" and "that"...then are left to wonder why they fail. The "this" crowd did not want "that" and the "that" crowd did not want "this"....
If the same company created Game This and Game That... guess what might just happen?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Virus I can appreciate what you're saying, but I could use the same argument to point out how certain "niche" games that were released more recently than WoW and Eve are also struggling for similar reasons. Darkfall and Mortal Online cater to a specific gameplay style and thus it could be argued are following in the footsteps of the likes of Eve. However, they are not exactly getting good reviews.
I will agree though that part of WoWs success can be attributed to various things such as timing etc. And the same could be said of Eve.
But, IF both WoW and Eve to be launched in the next 12 months, would they enjoy the same level of popularity that they do at the moment? I don't think so. Which is why devs have decided not to "put all their eggs in one basket" and thus attempt to reduce the risk by trying to cater for an audience that spans multiple playstyles in the hope that they will gather a large enough playerbase.
Niche's are all very nice, but if the audience isn't big enough to launch a NEW product into them, then they may not be considered a viable entity to invest into. Regardless of how much a certain percentage of MMO players scream for it.
In short, there is no perfect formula for creating the ultimate MMO with a huge playerbase, however there are ways to increase the possibility of making one that is considered financially successful (dependant on the restraints imposed on the project of course).
After all, more options = potentially happier playerbase = potentially more money = potentially longer lifespan of the product.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Tarka, but DF and MO fall into the category of just being bad games period. They have issues that go far beyond their trying to fit in a niche. Expectations have changed in what a game will have at release - that is why I discount many games, because they are doomed to failure.
Would EVE do as well today as it did at launch? Most likely it would. When I started playing EVE, they had not yet hit 14k concurrent users. They had a pissant amount of subs compared to other games. It has taken a long time for EVE to get the subs it has.
I think WoW would still do as well as it did were it launched today as it was back then - because it would still be building off of the brand. If you took away Warcraft, Starcraft, and Diablo...then tried to launch WoW; it might very well be a different story. In a sense, Blizzard then was a lot like Apple is today. They had beaten EQ1's peak sub numbers within 2.5 months or so... not because the game was awesomesauce by any means (I still hate the Fisher-Price graphics myself, but I still have to say I prefer Vanilla to BC/WotLK - even as I jones a bit to get in for some of that game lobby action I complain about - it passes the time with a little more substance than playing Bejeweled, so I resub a couple of times a year).
What game that has been recently that tries to cater to a multitude of playstyles, player desires, etc... is doing well? They are setting their expectations pretty high and then floundering. Go in with realistic expectations of your market...profit. No, you're not going to be WoWtastic... then again, the market is showing that nobody else is either. So you could put a game out to make a decent profit or you could put out a game where you hope to recoup most of your costs before you end up pulling the plug...
As for your other conversation going on there about EVE, I agree that neither CCP nor EVE are perfect. I still bitch about how illogical ninja salvaging is as far as the game mechanics are concerned. FW was abandoned. CCP has a history of having "nifty" ideas and crappy implementation. Look at all the crap with PI. Then there is all the talk about Incarna, how can anybody seriously expect that not to fall in with all the other "nifty" ideas...eh?
Still, each time the Alliance Tournament comes around - I get that itch to play again. Last year or so, I actually nerdragequit the game. I reprocessed everything that I had - sold it at whatever price was being paid - and mailed the isk to somebody that had acted as FC in a few FW runs because of the crap they put up with from others (female FC, no way - way). I made an alt on my other account the director of my corp that I created not long after starting the game so that I could delete the character. My sub expired before I could delete him...earlier this year I got a 3 day thing to go back. I went back for a day or two to verify the stupidity of why I had quit was still there...and just uninstalled the game.
I think EVE is one of the better games out there, but I think CCP doing the "nifty" ideas thing is actually damaging the game, doing far more harm than good.
I changed to my EVE avatar because honestly, lol - my normal avatar pretty much looks like a troll and I was getting tired of all the fanbois of the various games just saying that I was trolling...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
you are really full of yourself but since i am bored i ll entertain the idea.
First of all EVE and CCP will always Evolve ive been in game for about 4 years now and it has changed more than any other MMO i have played and 98% of the changes have been for the better. although the risk of an SWG NGE falure is lurking around every corner but that could be said about every MMO.
What you are saying about playing styles... well everything is PVP the markets to actual fighting but im sure you know this. I get what you are saying but CCP and players really dont give a damn. even if they had 2 mill subs and a army of Devs they would just add more systems and ships. I dont know why you cant wrap your brain around the idea of a MMO company that does not want the PVE raid crowd to put it simple they just do not fit in the game and would be a total waste of man power to do so as you can never keep that crowd happy. they will rip through it in a few weeks and scream for more besides we are in frikkin space ships i mean how many guristas can you shoot they did try Level 5's and high end plexes in 0,0 such as the maze and what not and most of the player base didnt care this is not why WE play eve. CCP is more about keeping the current players happy instead of trying to get other play styles as they are a small and very profitable company and can afford this motto.
When i started playing EVE i would log in and 7k to 10k would be on server on weekends lol... during the week it was like 4k to 8k and now i login its between 38k to 46k . the game is not going anywhere despite what is being released. EVE has its people and numbers slowly grow and it will always be this way they are not trying to hit a million overnight or be the next WoW they are just building a world for people who play EVE and who like that type of game play, no other MMO company offers.
So i can say man the game is not for you and thats ok so move on nobody cares we can argue all you want and at the end of it i log into an awesome game and you are off to some other thread to moan about something as for posting in this thread yes the idea of EVE is cool but the OP didnt even begin to see what the world offers and some of us are trying to explain that you have to look for it but oh well i guess but you posting in this thread when you actually hate the game is LOL. why so mad??
EVE is more of a simulator it can be boring at times and it can be amazing as well. please tell me another mmo that can have 1500 to 1700 people in one system having a fleet fight over Sov space, actually off the top of my head i dont know of another MMO that has player Sov or owned turf that can be taken by other players.
and you can go on and on and i really dont care cause WE the EVE players in the now and Future dont want your kind stinking up our game with your typical MMO idea's we are and will be happy in our stupid little sand box!
In all honesty, MaxionVoX - how many of those 1500-1700 people are going to be spending 15 minutes to an hour or so looking at a blank screen waiting for it to load?
That is one of the places that I sincerely wish CCP would take a look at improving the game.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I think most EVE players realize the game is not perfect, and certainly could do with some changes and improvements.
The problem is, there is a finite pool of finanical and human resources and CCP has to decide what efforts are worth investing in that will bring about an increase in subs w/o destroying the core player base in the meantime.
I've seen the comment 'irrational fear of change' used several times in this thread. Ask any player of DAOC if such fear is really unjustified. Game developers have proven in countless situations that the wrong change at the wrong time can kill their games more surely than any other factor.
For all the vaunted success of WOW, take a look at how many players are not playing it, their number is legion and they are looking for something else instead.
Some of the ideas mentioned in this thread seem sound at first, but on closer inspection there's probably a reason why CCP hasn't gone forward with them.
Ship customization is one item mentioned. For the same reasons that Lineage 2 didn't offer much customization in gear, I'm sure CCP keeps this out of the game because it would hinder the games ability to have large scale battles because it would have far more data to keep track of for each player. The smoothest PVP games in the world are first person shooters which offer very limited character customization for exactly this reason.
Know this, CCP isn't just a bunch of drunken icelanders (well, ok, they are, but thats besides the point) who don't think any of this through. I'm sure they've considered and tossed aside thousands of ideas to improve the game and have decided to deliver the ones we have so far based on a variety of financial and gameplay considerations.
I agree with others, no game can be everything to everyone, and attempts to create them such as WOW leaves you with a bland, average gaming experience that doesn't appeal to me personally, regardless whether 11M other folks love it to death.
I am looking foward to Incarna somewhat, but if it never comes no big deal, I don't play EVE to walk around in stations. If I want to perhaps I'll play SWTOR which will probably have a great story line, even if the Fleet to Fleet combat model is a bit weak.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Maxon, please answer the following:
Did you actually READ the title of this thread before jumping in to defend your beloved game and tell people "how its not for them"? Another point I made earlier by the way, thanks for that
Do you actually COMPREHEND what is being discussed in this thread, or did you just feel so vunerable that you felt compelled to lash out at those who may not feel that Eve gives all that it could?
Lastly, where did I say that I hated Eve? I don't hate Eve. I played it and I found it to be good in some elements but not to my personal taste in others. I can appreciate how a certain playstyle likes it but then I can also see where its gameplay is weak. That doesn't mean for one second that I hate it. In fact, I often use Eve as being an example of good crafting / economic synergy (I'm sure VirusDancer has seen me quote it a few times lately). In actuality, the fact that I can appreciate both sides means that I can remain objective about the game whilst remain open minded to the possibility of where the weaknesses could be addressed. Which is unfortunately something you cannot say about yourself.
But sure, feel free to lash out like you're under attack and we're somehow questioning your validity to play Eve, because quite frankly it's all in your (closed) mind.
Now run along and learn to read thread titles before you post. That's a good lad
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Thanks for attempting to bring some civilised discussion back into this thread instead of it descending into yet another flame fest. This thread is discussing ideas and thoughts surrounding what is viewed by the posters as Eve's weaknesses. Personally, I don't see any problem with such a discussion. We all know that nothing will come of it so there's no need for anyone to feel as if they're are under attack.
I do appreciate the fact that not every idea is a good one. And its highly likely that CCP have invested even a little time to examine various possibilities. After all, its their product to do with as they please, regardless of how their playerbase (or anyone else for that matter that isn't an investor) feel about the situation.
It must be tough, the devs must be under greater pressure these days than ever before. There are far more restrictions and constraints placed on MMOs for a variety of reasons whether they are financial, what customers have come to expect or what the competition (if any) is up to. Subsequently, each decision must have to be carefully scrutinised before given the "go ahead" for design and implementation. But sometimes, the wrong decision is where no decision is made at all.
Who knows, perhaps Eve will ride out the storm that is coming in the form of competition without having to adapt? Or maybe it may not weather it too well at all.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Well Im in RZR the Fight in H-W when the SC tried to lock the NC down was actually pretty good a bit of the module lag but the fight was alot of fun.. in fact it was great when local was around 800 to 1400... It peaked at 1900 and that was kinda a pain but workable.
Pre dominion like during Delve II we had a 6 hour fight with 1500 + in local and that was amazing the amount of lag was really light compared you just had to turn off brackets as 1000s of drones scattered if you turned them you would freeze and have to log off and since then we had many large battles between 500 to 900 in local with no problem.
Then Dominion hit and we couldnt even defend geminate black screen jump ins and turkey shoots we even tried to get in system before Atlas and Co and props to those guys for being in system 8 to 10 hours before the RF timers ended lol.. we took our lumps on the head and fell back to Pure Blind and Tribute.
And now the 6 Titan NC drama the Titans jumped but didnt jump so they get killed then spawn at exit system after DT lol WTF!!!so we need to see how this drama plays out but even if we loose the titans which i think would be bunk but its a step forward in the game to getting this issue fixed and thats all that really matters.
So ya the issue is a problem and i do have faith in CCP to at least make it workable as of now its a risky thing getting in a 1000 ship fight it could go very bad real fast.
But these issues only effect the null sec large alliances like myself and really they are only an issue during SOV wars cause really most of the time its like 200 to 400 for large fleets.
I feel much like the OP, and after trying to get into EVE three different times in the last couple years, I gave up.
The issue is not the game though, it's me. I feel disconnected from my own toon, since I am essentially a ship. Related but even bigger is the issue that I see space travel and space combat in an MMO as a gameplay feature, not the entire game. I need to be on the ground, running around exploring, fighting people and mobs, etc.
A good example of an unpolished version of this was Star Wars Galaxies. I lived and played on the ground most of the time, but if I wanted to spend weeks in space doing missions and PvP, I could. I could also choose to fly to the limited number of planets in SWG. I liked doing this because it felt more real to me than just zoning.
If EVE had a ground game as good as the space game, I would be all over it. Maybe some year down the road they will, because lets face it, CCP kicks ass. That about sums up my feelings toward EVE. I am a huge fan of CCP, and how they have handled and evolved EVE for their players. I really wish they could take the successful sandbox formula and morph it into a ground based game for those of us who don't get into the space only type game.
So far, all the indy companies out there who have tried to make a modern sandbox have pretty much failed. If anyone could do it, I think CCP could.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
What is this competition you speak of? What a FTP game like BP i think its safe to say that will fail when it comes to pulling people away from EVE. i do believe it is going to be a heavy instance type of game as well which after the STO episode that idea has lost appeal for me and im sure others feel the same.
Jump Gate Evolution if ever released will be cool. i didnt read the E3 report on it but i did hear somebody in my corp saying it was like gonna be more like Wing Commander type of combat in a MMO. I am sure it will be fun but im betting on a lack of depth and be more of a action shooter. Fun for a while but no EVE and again Fail taking away the EVE player base if anything i see corps and alliances from EVE playing it just for some zerg fest action but nothing full time.
Umm anything Fantasy is out for me anyways i can only get into Sci Fi and i think most EVE players feel the same about this.
The only one i see as a threat and i really dont want to call it that but it could change the MMO world if they can deliver. The Bioware SWTOR thing kinda excites me a bit but with the WoW crowd still not locked up in Gulag i dont see them happy without the game being a WoW clone. SWG was my first MMO and was unhappy with every game that wasnt like SWG till i found EVE, so i kinda understand that. WoW is many peoples first MMO but i hope they can accept it for what it is and on its own and i hope the SWG vets Pre CE and NGE dont compare the new game to it. But the game could just Suck we dont know yet..as for EVE players hell a good MMO is a good MMO and bioware makes some fun games so hell if it works it might kill every game
So imo EVE is fine and will be for at least for the next few years anyway.
See, this is along the lines of something that I was either saying in this thread (probably this thread, but I'm asleep at the keyboard)....where instead of CCP trying to get people like you to play EVE, if they were to go ahead and develop Game That to go with the Game This they already have... they could do well in the market on multiple fronts.
As has been said, EVE is not for everybody - they should not try to make EVE for everybody; but if they look at what the people did like from EVE and look around at the current market and what players are saying...tada, they could definitely score themselves a nice subscription base for their efforts.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I agree with you and it's amazing how a good percentage of Eve players are totally against any change, even if that means it will bring in more players. I don't think they should carebear up Eve either, quite the opposite. But there are things they could do to enhance the game to bring in more players without radically changing the game. I would say that if you listed the top reasons why people leave Eve after trying it multiple times, excluding the people that just want to 'WoW' it up, has to be how disjointed they feel from their character. At times it feels like you're playing a strategy game more than an MMORPG and perhaps that's the whole point of the game. It just doesn't make that gameplay that engaging all the time.
Again, I don't think there's really all that many EVE players out there who really are totally against any change. I've yet to meet a person who doesn't think there's quite a few things that should be changed about EVE, but the difference is, whether the change brings in more subs is not the primary deciding factor in creating their wish list.
As far as a particular change not radically altering the game play, that's where the debate really sets in. Even what appears to be like a small change on the surface, such as the recent modifcations made to the games ship insurance plan triggers firestorms of forum threads over how it will either totally save or totally destroy the game.
Incarna (walking in stations) is hotly debated because although people realize it might go a long way to bring in people who can't identify with their ship, many feel it diverts valuable resources from issues and changes that the current player base feels is more worthy, such as solving the lag in large fleet battles or bringing T3 Frigates or Battleships into the game. Also there is the belief by many (which I happen to share) that if someone isn't playing EVE right now for all the great features and game mechanics that it currently has, just being able to walk in stations isn't going to be enough for them to stick around long term.
We all agree that MMO's need to change and evolve to survive, but the real trick is in the execution and far too often change works against a games success rather than promotes it hence the wariness of the current player base towards radical alterations that appear to "wow-ify" the gameplay.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It is a strategy game. You could call it a strategic MMORPG. It does not have the quick fix of a more action orientated MMORPG. It does have higher consequences for foolish actions or mistakes than a casual MMORPG. It requires some planning in what you are going to do. That is generally one of the reasons that people like it compared to other games.
You have to think about many of your actions, not just jump into a game lobby for a quick fix of fun. Yes, you can login and run some random missions while checking on other things - but when it comes to most things in EVE, that is not the case.
There is nothing stopping a person from roleplaying in EVE. There are some pretty creepy RP corps in the game that make RP guilds in other games look half-assed.
Having a humanoid avatar is not going to change the core mechanics of the game. If a person does not like how EVE is, being able to spin a toon instead of spinning a ship ain't gonna fix that.
EVE is EVE. Yes, it needs fixes for certain things and has room for growth...but with EVE being EVE. Not EVE being something other than it is.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Improving the quality of PvE in EVE? Sure, I'm all for that, and I've made and supported proposals to that effect.
Changing the PvP nature of the game? No chance in hell, I would oppose that every step of the way.
Give me liberty or give me lasers