I've seen the trailers... Read the interviews and read the TOR forums and i have yet to see something different then the current stemple of MMOs in TOR.
The concepts have't been chaged at all. This game will have the same old stuff that we know of from the times of EQ and it seems the only difference will be that the quest text will be changed with a voiceover dialogue. Its more or less it.
I'm not a SWTOR hater or even a WoW hater but the truth is that the difference between SWTOR and WoW will be fluff.
And do you really think peole play MMOS for the story? Look at LOTRO numbers (the "story" MMO) and for example WoW or Aion numbers...
The future of MMOs is not in the story... The story apeals only to some of the niche western market. The real MMO market- the east - will not be impressed i presume.
And sayig it'll bring many single player people into MMOs is nonsence. Those that did not move to MMOs (i know of) moved for a single reason... That you have to pay a subsciption to MMOs instead of single payment and owning the game afterwards.
There is a long time before launch... So i really hope Bioware has some aces up their sleeves as what they are showing now won't give them their 150 mil "WoW killer" money return as it is.
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I'm a hot-wired, heat-seeking, warm-hearted cool customer; voice-activated and bio-degradable.
I agree with OP that some players are looking for SW ToR to be a WoW clone and some others are looking for it to be a WoW killer and in my opnion this game is neither of those things. As the OP points out they seem to care a lot for the lore in Swtor wich I love, but it is true in WoW I did not had any Idea why we had to kill the Lich King, I just knew he was bad, I had to play WC3 to find out who the hell he was, then I found out that many NPC were very important lorewise, for example, Alextsrasza, I thought that she was just some random quest giver, someone should have told me that she was a BIG character of warcraft lore, she was the Dragon Queen and I didn't knew it until cataclysm came out, lol, I hope if I meet a Jedi master, Sith lord, or someone important lore wise, someone warns me about it.
Sadly I think this game will do really well, and it will be the death knell for real MMORPGs. A bunch of non MMO fans will buy it because its Bioware, because its Star Wars, and they'll play the single player portion without even thinking of it, happily paying a monthly fee that is not justified by the mechanics of the game.
Ok i can see where your going with people will buy it because its Bioware and Star Wars, but what i really want to know is WTF is a real MMORPG, i keep seeing this and have yet to see anyone explain, last i checked like any genre of video game MMO's are subject to different types and styles especially the MMORPG. Let me put this another way think of the traditional console RPG, all of them have similar concepts, some sort of leveling system or character development system, an involved story line (usually), a form of battle system etc... but it is in these aspects that they also vary making many types of RPGs such as; The Hack and Slash RPG (Diablo, Torch Light), the turn based random battle rpg/ non random battle ( Final Fantasy, Lufia, Breath of Fire, Dragon Warrior) Full action random / non random battle games ( Star Ocean, Tales of Destiny) Action Adventure RPG ( Final Fantasy Adventures, Secrets of Mana, Zelda*to some extent*) The classic Dungeon Crawler (Eye of the Beholder, D&D, 7th Saga, Double Dungeons), Traditional Dungeons and Dragons type rule set games like Baulders Gate and Icewind Dale, first person adventure RPGs (Might and Magic, Elder Scrolls) and the list goes on. So with that being said please elaborate on your Real MMORPG.
Main difference between MMO and other games was one persistent world for all players. What we call a sandbox MMO is very close to what a true MMORPG once was or aimed to be. But the problem with such game design is that it is very time consuming and time is a luxury not many of us have.
In response, developers decided to lean towards old fashion multiplayer design with smaller areas and limited amount of players and introduced instances. Instances were repetitive and eventually became broing but at least everyone knew exactly what to do and how to spend their limited spare time.
Still there was a time consuming issue with this design because many hours have been spent in failed attempts to gather a proper group for raids. Once again developers take an action and deliver a PvE content that is now completely soloable. So you have a single player game with an option to see other players running around and minding their own business. Well there is worse...
MMOs like Global Agenda or APB have even taken a step further and introduced instances, NOT instanced world but instances and the only thing that is Massively Multiplayer is the game lobby. Now I guess something has to justify MMO label and thus a monthly sub or a cash store but there is a line that separates MMO from non-MMO and in most cases this line has been crossed long time ago...
Several companies are heavily investing in storytelling: Anet, Bioware and Funcom all will deepen that gameplay feature very much in their MMO's GW2, SW TOR and TSW.
I guess we'll see how successful they will be with their works after next year when their games have been released.
Those that don't like it, the storytelling aspect, you don't have to play those games, after all, there are and will be enough MMO's of all kinds of variety available.
Speaking for myself, I see elements that SW TOR has in common with WoW, as also I found LotrO had a lot of elements in common with WoW when I played it, and WoW having things in common with EQ when I first played WoW.
I also see things that SW TOR doesn't have in common with WoW - as can anyone who takes a step back and reviews the demos and interviews available and the information gathered in that link I posted earlier.
I don't know if SW TOR will be phenomenally successful. I do know though that I'll reserve judgement about whether I think they succeeded in Bioware's mission with SW TOR until I've experienced the beta myself.
PS: and thanks, I just re-posted the link someone else posted earlier
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think alot of people are going to be dissappointed with this game thinking its like WoW or any other type of MMO, one where you just go from HUB to HUB maxing out your quest book as fast as possible then going out to kill whatever it is you need to kill or collect and return as fast as possible
This game is going to have story line and instead of the mindless grind you are going to have to read and make choices not do the same old same old WoW style gameplay, bioware is not just another run of the mill company they put great care into the story and dont just give you a throw away story like in World of warcraft and then give you kill quest after kill quest
Maybe the warcraft lore is great, no, it is great, but you would never know in World of Warcraft because all you do in that game is farm "daily"s and raid for loot, story is no where to be found in that game except for small pages of quest lore that absolutely no one reads except for a minority who likes to read random quest drivel that has nothing to do with the main story plot
A WoW clone it is not, IF you think that you are in for a either a rude awakening or a very nice suprise if you dont want it to be but are having doubts, already from the quest demo i can see this game is absolutely nothing like WoW and is going trampel FFXI and FFXIV for storytelling IN YOUR GAME, and not just on a piece of paper
good stuff
So you're saying... it's going to be an instanced single player game with a mothly fee?
I think I'd almost rather have a WoW clone.
Maybe if I close my eyes it'll almost feel like I'm playing Kotor 3, and not some horrible Diablo kotor hybrid
MMOs like Global Agenda or APB have even taken a step further and introduced instances, NOT instanced world but instances and the only thing that is Massively Multiplayer is the game lobby. Now I guess something has to justify MMO label and thus a monthly sub or a cash store but there is a line that separates MMO from non-MMO and in most cases this line has been crossed long time ago...
It's funny that you see now a trend arise for lobby-style games and playstyle, like Global Agenda or APB or like WoW partially has become.
ArenaNet has walked that path 5 years ago with GW that was like that, but has progressed since into the newer format that we'll see in GW2, which will be persistent open-world.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
but hey, i am happy if someone manages to pull off something new, bout damn time.
dont get me wrong i'd be happy, but all those "lovely" new ideas they have seem to be pretty old to me.
I agree, plus I also don't think that all those new ideas will be successful. But a number of them will be and those will be seen and imitated in some forms in other MMO's. That's why I'm glad there will be so many MMO's with new, innovative features arrive within the next 2 years, because the MMO genre frankly needs it hard.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Several companies are heavily investing in storytelling: Anet, Bioware and Funcom all will deepen that gameplay feature very much in their MMO's GW2, SW TOR and TSW.
I guess we'll see how successful they will be with their works after next year when their games have been released.
Those that don't like it, the storytelling aspect, you don't have to play those games, after all, there are and will be enough MMO's of all kinds of variety available.
Speaking for myself, I see elements that SW TOR has in common with WoW, as also I found LotrO had a lot of elements in common with WoW when I played it, and WoW having things in common with EQ when I first played WoW.
I also see things that SW TOR doesn't have in common with WoW - as can anyone who takes a step back and reviews the demos and interviews available and the information gathered in that link I posted earlier.
I don't know if SW TOR will be phenomenally successful. I do know though that I'll reserve judgement about whether I think they succeeded in Bioware's mission with SW TOR until I've experienced the beta myself.
PS: and thanks, I just re-posted the link someone else posted earlier
SWTOR will be a success from the business point of view but SW IP and marketing will play a major role in it.
GW2 will be a success since the game design looks beautiful, features they introduced sound amazing, and most improtantly there is no monthly sub.
TWS and Funcom still have to prove they are trustworthy but they have plenty of time for that.
I think alot of people are going to be dissappointed with this game thinking its like WoW or any other type of MMO, one where you just go from HUB to HUB maxing out your quest book as fast as possible then going out to kill whatever it is you need to kill or collect and return as fast as possible
This game is going to have story line and instead of the mindless grind you are going to have to read and make choices not do the same old same old WoW style gameplay, bioware is not just another run of the mill company they put great care into the story and dont just give you a throw away story like in World of warcraft and then give you kill quest after kill quest
Maybe the warcraft lore is great, no, it is great, but you would never know in World of Warcraft because all you do in that game is farm "daily"s and raid for loot, story is no where to be found in that game except for small pages of quest lore that absolutely no one reads except for a minority who likes to read random quest drivel that has nothing to do with the main story plot
A WoW clone it is not, IF you think that you are in for a either a rude awakening or a very nice suprise if you dont want it to be but are having doubts, already from the quest demo i can see this game is absolutely nothing like WoW and is going trampel FFXI and FFXIV for storytelling IN YOUR GAME, and not just on a piece of paper
good stuff
So you're saying... it's going to be an instanced single player game with a mothly fee?
I think I'd almost rather have a WoW clone.
Maybe if I close my eyes it'll almost feel like I'm playing Kotor 3, and not some horrible Diablo kotor hybrid
What kind of fee is considered "mothly"?
Like $25/month?
Monthly fee? Bioware stated more than a year ago that it will be micro-transaction based hybrid payment model.
So what would you all do in your presitant open would with no quests, no story, no direction? Since if you add quest and story palyer freedom starts to become limited due to the inability of developers to predict player behavioral patters and the like. Most openish world games i know of are all single player with a few MMOs out there, but i was not terribly thrilled with EVE, i have a great imagination but i just could not get immersed into EVE, i agree though that there are features in sandbox games that are very good but there are some that are just unrealistic or maybe too realistic, i play games to escape from reality not to add reality to them.
PS. this is not an attack on the sandbox form of MMO I am just curious as to what it is you want i see references to SWG pre NGE/CU and EVE and the like but little explinations of what it is that you found in those games and what it is you are really looking for in new ones. Yes i get you want an open world but why do you want it that what, what are the benefits, how would the game play and people interact and how will those interactions affect that world and what would be the effects of those interactions on new players, etc... etc.. etc...
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
Monthly fee? Bioware stated more than a year ago that it will be micro-transaction based hybrid payment model.
Wrong.
For those who are wondering what Bioware really said was that they were not ruling out anything, including microtransactions, at that point. However, they said they were not going to discuss what the payment model would be until closer to launch. At this point in time no one knows if this game will use a standard model of $15 a month or something else.
About WoW: yeah, WoW was mentioned a number of times in some E3 interviews. On the other hand, also WAR and Mass Effect were mentioned, or to be more exact:
Player ships: no references made, it's similar to playerhousing but more than that, it's your base.
Space exploration: like ME and ME2, friends can join you in your ship and travels.
PvP War Zones: similar to what you see in WAR and WoW
PvP in general: there will be open PvP as well as instances
Group play and questing: singleplayer gameplay is possible like in WoW. Grouping is not required, but encouraged. Bioware representative talks not about quests, but about "adventuring" and that adventuring is possible with groups.
Raids: TOR will have areas like you see in WoW, that are scalable to different sizes.
Crafting: not to the extent of SWG, more similar to WoW but with a couple of interesting twists added.
In another E3 interview a Bioware dev talks about the planets being huge worlds, 'offtrack'/non-themepark gameplay being possible, entertaining and rewarded, the class choice leading to a fully unique story and gameplay experience, and larger, massive storylines being influenced by players where even faction domination of planets comes into play, all of this without any reference to WoW.
Or if you want to really learn more about SW ToR instead of surfing the hype or trolling the hype, here a link somebody mentioned earlier (for which thanks) with great, detailed information:
There is a World/Galactic Story and your Personal Class Story - Darth Hater Q&A PAX
There is an END to each classes Story with new content to extend each story- MMOGamer
Quote from Darth Hater: The character creation screen was very similar to Dragon Age: Origins - E3 Darth Hater June 2010 (A)
Quote from Ray Muzyka: "We want people to feel like they're playing their own personal non-linear fiction" - Total PC Gaming Issue 28
Music from both the KOTOR 1,2 and all the movies will be heard in TOR plus new scores - Darth Hater the Audio of TOR
Quote: The general gist is that we want to reward grouping, but not so much that grouping is the only way to play the game - XP Damion Schubert
Combat
No Auto Attack - Mentioned in Multiple Reviews
Combat abilities can be used while moving, Sith Inquisitor seen using force Lightning in PvP while moving - Combat Dev. Vid.
NPC AI does seem to be aware of its surroundings, They take cover and the move away from other NPCs that may cause them harm etc - Developer Walkthrough
All classes will also have their ranged as well as close combat skills - MMORPG Comic Con
Quote: "all characters in the game will universally have some kind of fast-healing, meditative skill to use when out of combat" - E3 (Pre) Gamespot June 2010
Healing: Several classes can heal, Healing is NOT a requirement of TOR and healing has been done with a twist in TOR - IGN Q & A
If four players group to enter an instance and none of them was a healer they could each get out a companion that could heal which would in effect give 4 healers to see you through an instance - E3 Darth Hater DE Video June 2010
Environment and Planets
After talking about the smaller starter planet of Hutta: Quote: "It took a little under an hour to roam from one end of Hutta to the next, but that was on pretty much a straight line with only a couple little side ventures."- E3 Tor-Aid June 2010 (A)
Quote: The worlds are open WoW style, where they are separated by zones, with seamless loading time between them all. - E3 Tor-Aid June 2010
The origin or starter worlds are small compared to the others - E3 Darth Hater DE Video June 2010
Quote From Daniel Erickson: "One of the real things we wanted to show at GDC this year is that our worlds are huge, actually. They are giant, you can explore. They are massive. You can just wander off one direction and go forever." - Darth Hater GDC 2010 DE
Tiered Maps are in game. Your mini-map and world map change to reflect what level your on- Darth Hater Extravaganza
Dialogue
Quest Dialogue can change depending on what other player classes you bring with you during quests - VO Video
Options to read text, instead of hearing, or even skip to it altogether - Darth Hater Q&A PAX Day3
Built in Quest Helper System, similar to Warhammer, in game. Points you in right direction for quests and indicates progress. - Darth Hater Extravaganza
PvP & raiding
PvE Server confirmed if you do not want to PvP, thus confirming that there should be PvP servers - Darth Hater Q&A PAX
Quote from James Olhen: "We're going to have open world PvP, As for the more structured PvP, I can't going into details but we will have it" - PC Gamer UK April 2010
Quote: "We're looking at classic [endgame] systems, but we're also doing something brand new that hasn't been done in an MMO before - CVG March 2010
Thank you for posting this information. I was underwhelmed by the E3 coverage I watched, but after reading this I feel a lot better about the game.
I see many gamers wanting several things from MMOs. In no particular order, these things are:
Meaningful decisions: such as with character development (like DDO) or faction choices (EQ2 comes to mind here)
Fast Paced non boring Combat: I've seen a lot of folks criticising the seemingly slow paced static combat of TOR. Rather than argue this point with words, I'll instead point you to an official look into the original WoW Beta released by Blizzard
Player housing: This is in TOR, at least in some fashion. It has been stated (more like rumored actually) that some form of space action will also be in game.
Open Worlds: This should be common knowledge at this point. It has been stated many times that TOR will have open worlds with seemless transitions "similar to WoW." Quotes reflect Devs exact words, not to say WoW Clone, but rather to give a point of comparison.
Balanced and meaningful PvP: We've seen precious little of what PVP has to offer in TOR. We know it will be present in the form of Battleground type play and it is assumed that open world PVP will also exist on PvP servers or on all servers by way of a flag system.
There are many other things that people desire as a whole from MMOs, but these 5 things cover the basics. Looking only at these, saying that TOR is a single player game is, quite honestly, an ill informed opinion born of pessimism or outright fanboyism. Like one poster previously suggested, I prefer to see things from a positive stance. This is Bioware, not "Bob's MMO company." They have no more history with MMOs than did Blizzard when WoW was released, but they DO have a remarkable record of putting out amazing story driven games that are quality products, just like the aforementioned MMO company did. To say that this game will fail is remarkable short-sighted. It may not be for you, but please try not to deny the things that are being done right and different here when compared to other games released since the world was introduced to WoW.
I see many gamers wanting several things from MMOs. In no particular order, these things are:
Meaningful decisions: such as with character development (like DDO) or faction choices (EQ2 comes to mind here)
Fast Paced non boring Combat: I've seen a lot of folks criticising the seemingly slow paced static combat of TOR. Rather than argue this point with words, I'll instead point you to an official look into the original WoW Beta released by Blizzard
Player housing: This is in TOR, at least in some fashion. It has been stated (more like rumored actually) that some form of space action will also be in game.
Open Worlds: This should be common knowledge at this point. It has been stated many times that TOR will have open worlds with seemless transitions "similar to WoW." Quotes reflect Devs exact words, not to say WoW Clone, but rather to give a point of comparison.
Balanced and meaningful PvP: We've seen precious little of what PVP has to offer in TOR. We know it will be present in the form of Battleground type play and it is assumed that open world PVP will also exist on PvP servers or on all servers by way of a flag system.
There are many other things that people desire as a whole from MMOs, but these 5 things cover the basics. Looking only at these, saying that TOR is a single player game is, quite honestly, an ill informed opinion born of pessimism or outright fanboyism. Like one poster previously suggested, I prefer to see things from a positive stance. This is Bioware, not "Bob's MMO company." They have no more history with MMOs than did Blizzard when WoW was released, but they DO have a remarkable record of putting out amazing story driven games that are quality products, just like the aforementioned MMO company did. To say that this game will fail is remarkable short-sighted. It may not be for you, but please try not to deny the things that are being done right and different here when compared to other games released since the world was introduced to WoW.
Very well put. The only thing I would point out is that I think a lot of people who dislike the idea of static combat dislike how WoW is. From watching the video you posted it looks like the combat in that beta was similar to how this one is. It is not hard to imagine that this game will be a lot like WoW in terms of combat and those who dislike that will dislike this. That being said, I personally think it is for the best to have that sort of combat.
I agree that this game does indeed look very much like a solid MMO and not a single player game at all. Especially after what we have seen at this last E3.
I'm gonna say....I didn't read ANY of this thread. I am simply responding to the TITLE of the thread ONLY.
The title makes NO sense whatsoever. Why would anyone be looking for a WoW clone? If you want to play WoW....you're probably already playing it. WoW does WoW best....period. No other game (thank the gaming gods) will ever "out WoW" WoW. So why would anyone be LOOKING for a game "like WoW?"
I think this is something a few developers fail to realize too and is why there will never be a "WoW killer" that will miraculously "steal" all of the WoW population. The people who like WoW....PLAY WoW. They're not going to move to another WoW.
I'm gonna say....I didn't read ANY of this thread. I am simply responding to the TITLE of the thread ONLY.
The title makes NO sense whatsoever. Why would anyone be looking for a WoW clone? If you want to play WoW....you're probably already playing it. WoW does WoW best....period. No other game (thank the gaming gods) will ever "out WoW" WoW. So why would anyone be LOOKING for a game "like WoW?"
I think this is something a few developers fail to realize too and is why there will never be a "WoW killer" that will miraculously "steal" all of the WoW population. The people who like WoW....PLAY WoW. They're not going to move to another WoW.
This is the reason why devs need to make an advanced MMO with top of the line graphics.
The game that everyone can play and that every computer can handle is done by WoW.
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
I'm gonna say....I didn't read ANY of this thread. I am simply responding to the TITLE of the thread ONLY.
The title makes NO sense whatsoever. Why would anyone be looking for a WoW clone? If you want to play WoW....you're probably already playing it. WoW does WoW best....period. No other game (thank the gaming gods) will ever "out WoW" WoW. So why would anyone be LOOKING for a game "like WoW?"
I think this is something a few developers fail to realize too and is why there will never be a "WoW killer" that will miraculously "steal" all of the WoW population. The people who like WoW....PLAY WoW. They're not going to move to another WoW.
Sir, why must you lie to us? We all know there will be a game that will "Out WoW" Wow...I think everyone knows that games name.
I'm gonna say....I didn't read ANY of this thread. I am simply responding to the TITLE of the thread ONLY.
The title makes NO sense whatsoever. Why would anyone be looking for a WoW clone? If you want to play WoW....you're probably already playing it. WoW does WoW best....period. No other game (thank the gaming gods) will ever "out WoW" WoW. So why would anyone be LOOKING for a game "like WoW?"
I think this is something a few developers fail to realize too and is why there will never be a "WoW killer" that will miraculously "steal" all of the WoW population. The people who like WoW....PLAY WoW. They're not going to move to another WoW.
Sir, why must you lie to us? We all know there will be a game that will "Out WoW" Wow...I think everyone knows that games name.
World of Warcraft 2: The Search for More Money.
ROFL!!
You're right....I stand corrected. (And....I'm not a "Sir"...but no biggie. ;D)
I've always found it rather ironic that players of other MMOs get up in-arms when a potentially good MMO goes into development. It happened when EQ was the big daddy and everyone else were small fries. EQ players ridiculed DAoC for being too EQ-like and WoW for being too "kiddy". Now, WoW players ridicule other MMOs for being too WoW-like or not being accessible enough (I've seen the later).
WoW, sadly, is going nowhere. It will remain the big dog on the market until a bigger name is released. Honestly speaking, SWTOR has that potential; but so did a slew of other games. Only time will tell. The execution of the game is what will make or break it. If the game is released unpolished with bugs, lag, balance issues, and excessive downtime; then SWTOR will be doomed. However, if it is released with minimal issues (it can happen. DAoC had a good released...despite the balance issues); the SWTOR will thrive. It won't kill WoW, but it won't be killed by WoW either. SWTOR is going to be a nice alternative.
To be successful in today's finicky market, a new MMO must:
- Have minimal bugs. At least, no huge glaring bugs. You know, the game stopping kind
- Balance issues: frankly, balance is difficult to have in of itself, but thats what beta is for. To find these issues and get them as close to balanced as possible.
- Stability and Downtime: Downtime is bound to happen during the first month of a game. Stability is essential. If the game is up for 6 hrs a day; it will not maintain customers.
- "Final" Product: Last thing we want to see is features removed at the last moment or a huge patch to slow down leveling the day after the game is released. I won't mention the names of the MMOs that did such things. =p
I went a little off-track. Basically, to sum it up: SWTOR isn't another WoW. There are fundamental aspects that are in all MMOs that can't being ignored. Just beacuse SWTOR has a mini-map and quests, doesn't mean it is WoW. It just means those two features are so important, that an MMO without them is making a big mistake.
I've tried all the major MMOs that have been released in the US since EQ "died" (yea, I know. It is still going, but it "died" for me long ago).
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
If it were a "WoW clone" It would be doing absolutly nothing different. People throw the term around like it means something and attach to whatever game which isn't radically different. No doubt it will be fairly similar to WoW in a few aspects, maybe in some of the classes abilites and so forth, but expecting a game which just throws away all the old foundations is silly, seeing the game will likely be broken and unsuccsesful. Bioware is taking an intelligent move when it comes to staying with a few tried and true methods and adding their own touch to it.
I've always found it rather ironic that players of other MMOs get up in-arms when a potentially good MMO goes into development. It happened when EQ was the big daddy and everyone else were small fries. EQ players ridiculed DAoC for being too EQ-like and WoW for being too "kiddy". Now, WoW players ridicule other MMOs for being too WoW-like or not being accessible enough (I've seen the later).
WoW, sadly, is going nowhere. It will remain the big dog on the market until a bigger name is released. Honestly speaking, SWTOR has that potential; but so did a slew of other games. Only time will tell. The execution of the game is what will make or break it. If the game is released unpolished with bugs, lag, balance issues, and excessive downtime; then SWTOR will be doomed. However, if it is released with minimal issues (it can happen. DAoC had a good released...despite the balance issues); the SWTOR will thrive. It won't kill WoW, but it won't be killed by WoW either. SWTOR is going to be a nice alternative.
To be successful in today's finicky market, a new MMO must:
- Have minimal bugs. At least, no huge glaring bugs. You know, the game stopping kind
- Balance issues: frankly, balance is difficult to have in of itself, but thats what beta is for. To find these issues and get them as close to balanced as possible.
- Stability and Downtime: Downtime is bound to happen during the first month of a game. Stability is essential. If the game is up for 6 hrs a day; it will not maintain customers.
- "Final" Product: Last thing we want to see is features removed at the last moment or a huge patch to slow down leveling the day after the game is released. I won't mention the names of the MMOs that did such things. =p
I went a little off-track. Basically, to sum it up: SWTOR isn't another WoW. There are fundamental aspects that are in all MMOs that can't being ignored. Just beacuse SWTOR has a mini-map and quests, doesn't mean it is WoW. It just means those two features are so important, that an MMO without them is making a big mistake.
I've tried all the major MMOs that have been released in the US since EQ "died" (yea, I know. It is still going, but it "died" for me long ago).
I don't think the MMO market is finicky. Players just expect good games. Largely that's minimum bugs, good stability, polished AND fun gameplay. I think balance is actually an issue people are very forgiving about. There's not one game I'm aware of that failed because of ONLY balance issues. There are plenty of games that failed because they had only one of the other problems.
Really the MMO market has been plagued with largely crappy games since WoW. I think over the next 12 months we'll be seeing that change. ToR, GW2, FFXIV, and others should be high quality games. I don't think any game will ever dominate the market the way WoW is doing right now, not even WoW. The current situation is as much about lack of good competition as anything else.
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I've seen the trailers... Read the interviews and read the TOR forums and i have yet to see something different then the current stemple of MMOs in TOR.
The concepts have't been chaged at all. This game will have the same old stuff that we know of from the times of EQ and it seems the only difference will be that the quest text will be changed with a voiceover dialogue. Its more or less it.
I'm not a SWTOR hater or even a WoW hater but the truth is that the difference between SWTOR and WoW will be fluff.
And do you really think peole play MMOS for the story? Look at LOTRO numbers (the "story" MMO) and for example WoW or Aion numbers...
The future of MMOs is not in the story... The story apeals only to some of the niche western market. The real MMO market- the east - will not be impressed i presume.
And sayig it'll bring many single player people into MMOs is nonsence. Those that did not move to MMOs (i know of) moved for a single reason... That you have to pay a subsciption to MMOs instead of single payment and owning the game afterwards.
There is a long time before launch... So i really hope Bioware has some aces up their sleeves as what they are showing now won't give them their 150 mil "WoW killer" money return as it is.
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Nice post Cyphers !
On topic:
I agree with OP that some players are looking for SW ToR to be a WoW clone and some others are looking for it to be a WoW killer and in my opnion this game is neither of those things. As the OP points out they seem to care a lot for the lore in Swtor wich I love, but it is true in WoW I did not had any Idea why we had to kill the Lich King, I just knew he was bad, I had to play WC3 to find out who the hell he was, then I found out that many NPC were very important lorewise, for example, Alextsrasza, I thought that she was just some random quest giver, someone should have told me that she was a BIG character of warcraft lore, she was the Dragon Queen and I didn't knew it until cataclysm came out, lol, I hope if I meet a Jedi master, Sith lord, or someone important lore wise, someone warns me about it.
Main difference between MMO and other games was one persistent world for all players. What we call a sandbox MMO is very close to what a true MMORPG once was or aimed to be. But the problem with such game design is that it is very time consuming and time is a luxury not many of us have.
In response, developers decided to lean towards old fashion multiplayer design with smaller areas and limited amount of players and introduced instances. Instances were repetitive and eventually became broing but at least everyone knew exactly what to do and how to spend their limited spare time.
Still there was a time consuming issue with this design because many hours have been spent in failed attempts to gather a proper group for raids. Once again developers take an action and deliver a PvE content that is now completely soloable. So you have a single player game with an option to see other players running around and minding their own business. Well there is worse...
MMOs like Global Agenda or APB have even taken a step further and introduced instances, NOT instanced world but instances and the only thing that is Massively Multiplayer is the game lobby. Now I guess something has to justify MMO label and thus a monthly sub or a cash store but there is a line that separates MMO from non-MMO and in most cases this line has been crossed long time ago...
Several companies are heavily investing in storytelling: Anet, Bioware and Funcom all will deepen that gameplay feature very much in their MMO's GW2, SW TOR and TSW.
I guess we'll see how successful they will be with their works after next year when their games have been released.
Those that don't like it, the storytelling aspect, you don't have to play those games, after all, there are and will be enough MMO's of all kinds of variety available.
Speaking for myself, I see elements that SW TOR has in common with WoW, as also I found LotrO had a lot of elements in common with WoW when I played it, and WoW having things in common with EQ when I first played WoW.
I also see things that SW TOR doesn't have in common with WoW - as can anyone who takes a step back and reviews the demos and interviews available and the information gathered in that link I posted earlier.
I don't know if SW TOR will be phenomenally successful. I do know though that I'll reserve judgement about whether I think they succeeded in Bioware's mission with SW TOR until I've experienced the beta myself.
PS: and thanks, I just re-posted the link someone else posted earlier
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
What kind of fee is considered "mothly"?
Like $25/month?
gl on your hopes dude, bioware is cooking only with water tho, and what i've seen so far looks pretty 2nd gen to me
but hey, i am happy if someone manages to pull off something new, bout damn time.
dont get me wrong i'd be happy, but all those "lovely" new ideas they have seem to be pretty old to me.
let's hope and wait.
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It's funny that you see now a trend arise for lobby-style games and playstyle, like Global Agenda or APB or like WoW partially has become.
ArenaNet has walked that path 5 years ago with GW that was like that, but has progressed since into the newer format that we'll see in GW2, which will be persistent open-world.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I agree, plus I also don't think that all those new ideas will be successful. But a number of them will be and those will be seen and imitated in some forms in other MMO's. That's why I'm glad there will be so many MMO's with new, innovative features arrive within the next 2 years, because the MMO genre frankly needs it hard.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
SWTOR will be a success from the business point of view but SW IP and marketing will play a major role in it.
GW2 will be a success since the game design looks beautiful, features they introduced sound amazing, and most improtantly there is no monthly sub.
TWS and Funcom still have to prove they are trustworthy but they have plenty of time for that.
Monthly fee? Bioware stated more than a year ago that it will be micro-transaction based hybrid payment model.
So what would you all do in your presitant open would with no quests, no story, no direction? Since if you add quest and story palyer freedom starts to become limited due to the inability of developers to predict player behavioral patters and the like. Most openish world games i know of are all single player with a few MMOs out there, but i was not terribly thrilled with EVE, i have a great imagination but i just could not get immersed into EVE, i agree though that there are features in sandbox games that are very good but there are some that are just unrealistic or maybe too realistic, i play games to escape from reality not to add reality to them.
PS. this is not an attack on the sandbox form of MMO I am just curious as to what it is you want i see references to SWG pre NGE/CU and EVE and the like but little explinations of what it is that you found in those games and what it is you are really looking for in new ones. Yes i get you want an open world but why do you want it that what, what are the benefits, how would the game play and people interact and how will those interactions affect that world and what would be the effects of those interactions on new players, etc... etc.. etc...
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
This would be false. BioWare has never said anything about their payment model.
Wrong.
For those who are wondering what Bioware really said was that they were not ruling out anything, including microtransactions, at that point. However, they said they were not going to discuss what the payment model would be until closer to launch. At this point in time no one knows if this game will use a standard model of $15 a month or something else.
Thank you for posting this information. I was underwhelmed by the E3 coverage I watched, but after reading this I feel a lot better about the game.
I see many gamers wanting several things from MMOs. In no particular order, these things are:
Meaningful decisions: such as with character development (like DDO) or faction choices (EQ2 comes to mind here)
Fast Paced non boring Combat: I've seen a lot of folks criticising the seemingly slow paced static combat of TOR. Rather than argue this point with words, I'll instead point you to an official look into the original WoW Beta released by Blizzard
Player housing: This is in TOR, at least in some fashion. It has been stated (more like rumored actually) that some form of space action will also be in game.
Open Worlds: This should be common knowledge at this point. It has been stated many times that TOR will have open worlds with seemless transitions "similar to WoW." Quotes reflect Devs exact words, not to say WoW Clone, but rather to give a point of comparison.
Balanced and meaningful PvP: We've seen precious little of what PVP has to offer in TOR. We know it will be present in the form of Battleground type play and it is assumed that open world PVP will also exist on PvP servers or on all servers by way of a flag system.
There are many other things that people desire as a whole from MMOs, but these 5 things cover the basics. Looking only at these, saying that TOR is a single player game is, quite honestly, an ill informed opinion born of pessimism or outright fanboyism. Like one poster previously suggested, I prefer to see things from a positive stance. This is Bioware, not "Bob's MMO company." They have no more history with MMOs than did Blizzard when WoW was released, but they DO have a remarkable record of putting out amazing story driven games that are quality products, just like the aforementioned MMO company did. To say that this game will fail is remarkable short-sighted. It may not be for you, but please try not to deny the things that are being done right and different here when compared to other games released since the world was introduced to WoW.
Very well put. The only thing I would point out is that I think a lot of people who dislike the idea of static combat dislike how WoW is. From watching the video you posted it looks like the combat in that beta was similar to how this one is. It is not hard to imagine that this game will be a lot like WoW in terms of combat and those who dislike that will dislike this. That being said, I personally think it is for the best to have that sort of combat.
I agree that this game does indeed look very much like a solid MMO and not a single player game at all. Especially after what we have seen at this last E3.
I'm gonna say....I didn't read ANY of this thread. I am simply responding to the TITLE of the thread ONLY.
The title makes NO sense whatsoever. Why would anyone be looking for a WoW clone? If you want to play WoW....you're probably already playing it. WoW does WoW best....period. No other game (thank the gaming gods) will ever "out WoW" WoW. So why would anyone be LOOKING for a game "like WoW?"
I think this is something a few developers fail to realize too and is why there will never be a "WoW killer" that will miraculously "steal" all of the WoW population. The people who like WoW....PLAY WoW. They're not going to move to another WoW.
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This is the reason why devs need to make an advanced MMO with top of the line graphics.
The game that everyone can play and that every computer can handle is done by WoW.
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
Sir, why must you lie to us? We all know there will be a game that will "Out WoW" Wow...I think everyone knows that games name.
World of Warcraft 2: The Search for More Money.
ROFL!!
You're right....I stand corrected. (And....I'm not a "Sir"...but no biggie. ;D)
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I've always found it rather ironic that players of other MMOs get up in-arms when a potentially good MMO goes into development. It happened when EQ was the big daddy and everyone else were small fries. EQ players ridiculed DAoC for being too EQ-like and WoW for being too "kiddy". Now, WoW players ridicule other MMOs for being too WoW-like or not being accessible enough (I've seen the later).
WoW, sadly, is going nowhere. It will remain the big dog on the market until a bigger name is released. Honestly speaking, SWTOR has that potential; but so did a slew of other games. Only time will tell. The execution of the game is what will make or break it. If the game is released unpolished with bugs, lag, balance issues, and excessive downtime; then SWTOR will be doomed. However, if it is released with minimal issues (it can happen. DAoC had a good released...despite the balance issues); the SWTOR will thrive. It won't kill WoW, but it won't be killed by WoW either. SWTOR is going to be a nice alternative.
To be successful in today's finicky market, a new MMO must:
- Have minimal bugs. At least, no huge glaring bugs. You know, the game stopping kind
- Balance issues: frankly, balance is difficult to have in of itself, but thats what beta is for. To find these issues and get them as close to balanced as possible.
- Stability and Downtime: Downtime is bound to happen during the first month of a game. Stability is essential. If the game is up for 6 hrs a day; it will not maintain customers.
- "Final" Product: Last thing we want to see is features removed at the last moment or a huge patch to slow down leveling the day after the game is released. I won't mention the names of the MMOs that did such things. =p
I went a little off-track. Basically, to sum it up: SWTOR isn't another WoW. There are fundamental aspects that are in all MMOs that can't being ignored. Just beacuse SWTOR has a mini-map and quests, doesn't mean it is WoW. It just means those two features are so important, that an MMO without them is making a big mistake.
I've tried all the major MMOs that have been released in the US since EQ "died" (yea, I know. It is still going, but it "died" for me long ago).
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
If it were a "WoW clone" It would be doing absolutly nothing different. People throw the term around like it means something and attach to whatever game which isn't radically different. No doubt it will be fairly similar to WoW in a few aspects, maybe in some of the classes abilites and so forth, but expecting a game which just throws away all the old foundations is silly, seeing the game will likely be broken and unsuccsesful. Bioware is taking an intelligent move when it comes to staying with a few tried and true methods and adding their own touch to it.
I don't think the MMO market is finicky. Players just expect good games. Largely that's minimum bugs, good stability, polished AND fun gameplay. I think balance is actually an issue people are very forgiving about. There's not one game I'm aware of that failed because of ONLY balance issues. There are plenty of games that failed because they had only one of the other problems.
Really the MMO market has been plagued with largely crappy games since WoW. I think over the next 12 months we'll be seeing that change. ToR, GW2, FFXIV, and others should be high quality games. I don't think any game will ever dominate the market the way WoW is doing right now, not even WoW. The current situation is as much about lack of good competition as anything else.
The title of this topics screams fanboi. No one is looking for a WoW clone. How silly...
Incorrect.People ar elooking for WoW clones everywhere except in games they have decided to champion or put another way :
What I like = innovative and awesome.
Everything else = WoW Clone