Yawn. Someone else who thinks "skill" means "the reflexes of a mayfly on speed". ("I don't want to grind gear!" tends to translate to "I have serious ADD and just want to mash the attack button until my thumb breaks!")
Roleplaying games are about your CHARACTER, not you. Skill in an RPG should be in making choices as to WHAT your character does, or attempts to do -- whether or not the character succeeds should be up to the character's abilities. (Said abilities being, in turn, a consequence of the choices you made as you developed the character.)
.....
Yawn...and yet another so called gamer who assumes the only thing going on in more "twitch" skill based games is the constant mashing of the attack button....
Ahhhh, now I understand...You must be one of those guys standing around doing nothing particularly useful all the while MCOM A or B has been rigged with a charge and it needs to be defused, but you just stand there trading shots with some other knucklehead in the enemy back forty. Or maybe you're the medic who passes three casualties on by in his charge to get shot down himself five steps later. Or one of the guys who never looks at the minimap, only running straight to the enemy uncap all the while Suburbs has fallen and the Train Accident flag is going down....
Must be all the lights and noise freakin your little mind out so that when someone is actually shooting you or one of your teammates you get that deer-in-the-headlights syndrome thing right?
Because your own "twitch" skills may be lacking is no reason to get upset that you can't shoot, move, and communicate with the youngsters any more. Because everyone knows there's no skill at all involved in looking at the minimap and seeing which objective is under attack and responding. Or on the other side seeing where the defenses are set up tight and finding another avenue of approach to get to the objective right?
But you are right. It IS about your character and not about You.
The question to ask here is does Player Character Skill overide Player Skill? Should it? Does the game being a PVE or vP focused game make a difference in that determination?
Mount and Blade is completely skill based and yet has a healthy dose of both PVE and PvP elements. Can such a game be made into a MMO?
PS: Oh and yeah I remember playing Castle Wolfenstein in Computer Science (when those classes even existed) and all the rest of that happy horse####. So what? It took me just a little over a week to make one star in MW2 when it released. Probably another to finish it to five and get prestige unlock (which I have NOT done. WaW was enough of that for me). I play tabletop Traveler D20 every other month and plenty other games both online and off. Again so what? Any time someone has to "harcken back to te good old days"....should automatically get suspicions up. Noone has a lock on what hardcore or what constitutes "real" gamer skills.
"Heart grow stronger, Will becomes firm, the Mind more calm, as our Strength lessens..." Battle of Maldon 991 AD
Because your own "twitch" skills may be lacking is no reason to get upset that you can't shoot, move, and communicate with the youngsters any more. Because everyone knows there's no skill at all involved in looking at the minimap and seeing which objective is under attack and responding. Or on the other side seeing where the defenses are set up tight and finding another avenue of approach to get to the objective right?
You might want to go read the OP's post. He wants to go zappity-zap-zap and solo "bosses" because he's just that amazing. This has nothing to do with the things you mentioned. He wants an MMO"RPG" which has, near as I can tell, no RPG elements -- just button mashing.
Team tactics, etc, are indeed a real test of skill. One reason I liked Warhammer was that the instanced maps and even the open PVP, if you were lucky enough to get vaguely balanced sides, really showed the difference between coordinated players who knew what they had to do for a team win and idiots running all over the place as if there was no goal but to charge the nearest enemy -- or large group of enemies,solo -- and die, over and over. The OP WANTS that to work. He wants "player skill" to mean he can rush into a huge group of enemies, PVE or PVP, and win every time. This is the antithesis of wanting a game which rewards strategy, planning, and tactics, even if *implementing* those tactics requires reflexes.
And, yup, my own "skills" do indeed suck, and I will never claim otherwise, and they did even when I was 13. Reflexes, not my thing. However, that's irrelevant to my argument.
(I'd love to see some more MMOs with a)harsh choices in character development and no easy respec/change... you make your picks, you live with 'em, and b)A harsh death penalty that doesn't overly punish one bad pull or one mistake, but which grows progressively worse the more times you die in a short period, to discourage people who just try to win by attrition or mindlessly attack because, who knows, they might get lucky.)
Sorry OP, but you are too far on the other end of the spectrum for the vast majority of people.
Yes, MMOS are lacking in a need for skill, but if a person can tank a boss naked, that is too far away from what I consider RPG elements. If it is possible for a person to solo things like that, the game looses a need for teamwork, and looses the need for an MMO aspect. Stick with your twitch games with crazy flashy moves. I doubt MMOs will ever have anything near what you are thinking.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
The OP's post merely says that the succesful outcome of a fight, that emphasis should be upon the actions of the player in that fight and not the gear he has or what level his character is. A sentiment I can agree with but honestly don't know how you would integrate with contemporary RPG mechanics. Even Mass Effect 2, which changed it's combat mechanics to a more "twitch" style system, has increasing levels of abilities (read as "magical" skills). So a game which should be relatively easy to translate into an MMO (well I figure...) and which has a level of twitch style combat will still have a level of RPG mechanics as well, which in turn will influence any potential combat between players...
I would add that I do not agree with the OP that MMORPGs in their current or hell in any format at all, should be regarded as "carebear". They are what they are and that's all. I don't, as you also observe, see too many of the so called "hardcore" pvp types crying out for Final Death and so forth.
My point in my post was to be wary of assuming that the only thing being exercised in twitch based combat games are the reflexes needed to push the attack button as fast as humanly possible.
"Heart grow stronger, Will becomes firm, the Mind more calm, as our Strength lessens..." Battle of Maldon 991 AD
My point in my post was to be wary of assuming that the only thing being exercised in twitch based combat games are the reflexes needed to push the attack button as fast as humanly possible.
This is true.
However, if the OP desires the ability to beat any content (player or computer controlled) in an MMORPG single handedly, based on "skill", it's hard to see how he defines "skill" as anything other than button mashing, or, contrariwse, how the game he desires could be considered an MMORPG even under the very broad accepted definitions of the term. If gear or character abilities matter at all, then, given two equally skilled players, the better geared/specced/levelled whatever will win. If it doesn't matter at all, then what do you in the game besides just spawn and fight each other, and, if that's all you do, why not just play an FPS? Even if you focus on holding territory/claiming land/etc, you need to get some mechanical, in game benefit from doing so. (Something else we hardly ever see in MMORPGs is the use of terrain. How about attack bonuses if you have the high ground? How about forcing enemies into a narrow passage so they can only attack 1 by 1, with full collision so you can't just walk through your allies?)
For all the whining the allegedly "hardcore" do on these forums about how "carebear" instanced and/or level-segregated PVP is, in an MMORPG, that's about the only way you'll actually see "skill" -- when all equipment, class/character abilities, etc, are within a tight enough band that teamwork, knowledge, and training actually come into play. (I'd say "zerging takes 0 skill", but I've been in groups that couldn't organize even "Everyone charge the big guy" and pull it off. Sigh.)
On youtube, there are dozens of WoW pvp videos of people who are so good that they fight naked, eg, without equipment against fully geared opponents. And they win.
.
What is skill exactly? Is pushing a button at the right time a skill?
And you believe youtube hahaha.
You still dont understand OP as so many themeparkers will never understand what he means:P
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Correction, what P2P MMO's take skill, cus no F2P ones do.
Everything takes skill if you take it far enough. Just because you cry from exploiters does not mean they do not have skill, while victims always spam that. If you think it doesn't take skill to play the game you are, then stop playing, or get skill.
I cannot see Starcraft falling into that category since it isnt twitch based. It does require user input, and it is real time, but it features many different challenges found in the traditional MMO.
Starcraft is about as 'twitchy' as they come. It's not a coincidence that the best players in the world have APM's that hit 400+. (That's actions per minute for those not in the know). You know what 400 APM's are, its 6-7 mouseclicks/keystrokes per second. SC pro's go through a regiment that trains their eye-to-hand coordination to move that quickly. In korea you can hire coaches that improve this aspect of gameplay and these coaches are highly sought after.
Most newbies think starcraft is just a strategy game. It's not. Yes, there are stategic elements to starcraft like using the best units to counter your oppoenents units, but even the worst counter units can stand a chance if your micro-management is very good. Also starcraft's strategy is very limited as everyone has a pretty good idea of the best units to counter other units. Thus the game ends with whomever is the better twitch player.
-------------------------------
As for 'skills', 'skills' come in a variety of packages including
- group synergy
- situation awareness
- game knowledge
- twitch reflexes
- command experience
Look at any professional team like spain's football team. Each player including coaches will have great expertise in one or more of the following aforementioned attributes.
You're oversimplifying what Starcraft is. Starcraft, on some level outside of "professional" gaming, is about getting the cheapest units out the quickest possible to overrun your opponent before they start producing more. Thus, it is about the zerg (not the race),
I think many do not actually understand starcraft. The mechanics require a player to strategize and use tactices while building the proper units in order to have character growth and benefits. I have seen matches with Nada where he wins with a few well placed sneak attacks and building in the right location rather than any type of "zerg'. The claim that zerging is the only way to play and the best way to win is just wrong. I highly encourage people to watch the starcraft tournament videos on youtube to see what I am talking about. Twitch is hardly part of the setup and strategy phase. Quick reactions are only required when dealing with certain combat encounters.
On youtube, there are dozens of WoW pvp videos of people who are so good that they fight naked, eg, without equipment against fully geared opponents. And they win.
.
What is skill exactly? Is pushing a button at the right time a skill?
I would like to see this evidence before posting it as a fact. No really I would like to see it.
mmorpg's flop faster then mcdonalds cheese burgers these days.
On youtube, there are dozens of WoW pvp videos of people who are so good that they fight naked, eg, without equipment against fully geared opponents. And they win.
.
What is skill exactly? Is pushing a button at the right time a skill?
I would like to see this evidence before posting it as a fact. No really I would like to see it.
I am also intrigued about this. The last time I heard about this was back in Vanilla when rogue's were so OP that they indeed could beat enemies while wearing nothing but the starter dagger.
WoW isn't only about pushing a button in the right order, it is also largely luck based with critical hit chance and whatnot.
On youtube, there are dozens of WoW pvp videos of people who are so good that they fight naked, eg, without equipment against fully geared opponents. And they win.
.
What is skill exactly? Is pushing a button at the right time a skill?
I would like to see this evidence before posting it as a fact. No really I would like to see it.
I am also intrigued about this. The last time I heard about this was back in Vanilla when rogue's were so OP that they indeed could beat enemies while wearing nothing but the starter dagger.
WoW isn't only about pushing a button in the right order, it is also largely luck based with critical hit chance and whatnot.
Agreed.
mmorpg's flop faster then mcdonalds cheese burgers these days.
Because your own "twitch" skills may be lacking is no reason to get upset that you can't shoot, move, and communicate with the youngsters any more. Because everyone knows there's no skill at all involved in looking at the minimap and seeing which objective is under attack and responding. Or on the other side seeing where the defenses are set up tight and finding another avenue of approach to get to the objective right?
You might want to go read the OP's post. He wants to go zappity-zap-zap and solo "bosses" because he's just that amazing. This has nothing to do with the things you mentioned. He wants an MMO"RPG" which has, near as I can tell, no RPG elements -- just button mashing.
Team tactics, etc, are indeed a real test of skill. One reason I liked Warhammer was that the instanced maps and even the open PVP, if you were lucky enough to get vaguely balanced sides, really showed the difference between coordinated players who knew what they had to do for a team win and idiots running all over the place as if there was no goal but to charge the nearest enemy -- or large group of enemies,solo -- and die, over and over. The OP WANTS that to work. He wants "player skill" to mean he can rush into a huge group of enemies, PVE or PVP, and win every time. This is the antithesis of wanting a game which rewards strategy, planning, and tactics, even if *implementing* those tactics requires reflexes.
And, yup, my own "skills" do indeed suck, and I will never claim otherwise, and they did even when I was 13. Reflexes, not my thing. However, that's irrelevant to my argument.
(I'd love to see some more MMOs with a)harsh choices in character development and no easy respec/change... you make your picks, you live with 'em, and b)A harsh death penalty that doesn't overly punish one bad pull or one mistake, but which grows progressively worse the more times you die in a short period, to discourage people who just try to win by attrition or mindlessly attack because, who knows, they might get lucky.)
You misunderstand me completely. I want there to be the possiblility for somebody to become a legend. You cannot become a legend in a mmo without making an ass out of yourself (famously by leeroy jenkins).
You people are pegging me with the wrong assumptions. I don't want a game where you push buttons to be leet I want a game were legends are born because the system allows for skill to come into affect. Where you aren't "hardcapped" like we are in most leveled MMOs.
So yes, that 1 person could solo a raid boss is an example of how someone could become legendary. Its a way they could show they are that good at the game and should not be indicative to the difficulty of said encounter. What I want is a David vs Goliath story from MMOs or a 300 Spartans vs Countless Persians or 200 Texas vs 5000 mexicans. I want the underdog to have a chance. As it stands right now in MMOs numbers + gear > all.
But then again you want to play a game where everyone is on a level playing field at max level so you dont feel inferior.
every1 noez dat my kinda gamez iz better dan ur gamez cuz it take mad skillz to play MY kinda gamez
UR game iz jus 4 R Tardz and ijits
2 B a real game take shootemup skillz
This is an extremely juvenile assumption and really shows that you have weak debating skills. Way to come troll my thread.
I never once said I was leet or called anyone noobs. I have repeatedely said I enjoy MMORPGs for what they are but I want a game that is more gear toward skilled gamers. I have repeated adnosium what I think skilled gamers are and I stand by that.
That you come in here and post that drivel makes me believe you just want to feel important and get laughs from other people that are afraid of change.
I think I agree with the posts who argue on the definition of skill.
Skill type A: Hitting multiple targets "bullseye" from 25 yards with a 9mm, firing off rounds as fast as possible. Yeah that takes some skill, very twitch/fps style..
Skill type B: Undefeated Chess champion. Each game can take multiple days to complete, each move can take minutes, possibly hours.. Unless of course it's a timed match, but for the sake of argument, we got all the time in the world to play..
Both are very skilled people, however, you take type B and put him in situation A, well, the Chess player probably doesn't look very skilled trying to hit multiple targets with a gun..
Stick type A in situation B, well.. How good will those gunslinging skills do you, unless of course you plan on shooting your opponent if you lose..
Alot of the arguments here literally boil down to "Chess doesn't require skill because it isn't shooting a pistol" or "Shooting a pistol doesn't require a skill because it isn't playing chess". Well, no kidding, that's because they are two completely different skills.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
I have been playing MMOs for a long time (Aceron's Call was my first) and I have never really been satisfied by the gameplay. Well, why play them you ask? To be honest, I play them mostly to relax and have have some nice casual multiplayer with friends. I also play them for story and roleplaying purposes. But this said I would really like an MMO to come out that is not for casual gamers but for hardcore gamers.
But wait, wait!!!??!!! WoW has plenty Hardcore gamerzzz doesn't it?
Short answer= No, mmo hardcore people are NOT hardcore gamers. That thought is laughable.
Long answer= Hardcore gamers are people who enjoy games that require skill, not time commitment. (think street fighter, Call of Duty, japanese top down shooters).
This is really the crux of my issue with MMOs. They require absolutely no skill at all. I mean, there isnt a single open world MMO thats PvP or PvE doesn't boil down to who has better gear, higher levels, better traits, etc.
I want to see a guy tank the biggest boss in the game wearing nothing at all because he is just that FREAKING good. I wanna see an underdog win because he has a flawless fight against a better geared character. I want to get ganked by three other people and end up killing them all because I am just that freaking good. I want skill to matter and gear to be a bonus.
That way players can truely become legendary not for being "first to" but for being epic. For fighting against all odds and winning. Until then MMOs will continue to be casual "side attractions" and stuck in the stone ages they find themselves in now.
I will keep playing though. Its nice to have some carebear games to play too.
Before the flaming starts this is a thought piece, I am primarily a twitch gamer, and I wonder how many like minded people are out there like me.
As others have stated: Skills and Skillz are relative terms. Your skillz are not going to be the same type as mine. So what this sounds like to me is that you want a game that adheres to and makes use of your particular skillz. As someone else stated, twitch gamers tend to be hybrids of FPS and MMO's.
In fact, with the advent of WoW (which arguably gave twitch gaming it's birth in the mmo universe) most games have at least tried to make efforts to appeal to the old gamers (strategy skills) and the younger guys (reflex skillz). In fact, there quite a few games on the horizon that do away with autotargeting and make use of reflects and FPS modes. Even The Secret World has a few leanings that way.
Personally, I'd rather have plan ahead and terrain strategies, but that is just where my skill set is different. There were a few of these games long ago, but I think they have vanished.
EDIT: upon rereading the OP's recent statements I think what they mean isn't actually skills but a mixture of the two. Have you tried World War 2 Online? The problem with the David VS Goliath metaphor is that the story is meant to explain an allegorical miracle, not an actual event. So if a player could defeat a mob because of his talents, it would still be considered a miracle.
Because gaming takes real skill... like pushing a button on the keyboard...
I saw my brother playing WoW which i quit long ago the other day... he was doing pve pressing 1 2 3333333333333333333333333333
So he did pvp he pushed..... 2 3333333333333333333
Yes he tops dps and kills lists, but somehow he says that game is retarded, not that he has skill or something like that.
I play TF2, MW2 and a few other games... do you think i believe im skilled for topping point lists? Pointing and clicking something must be really hard for someone with parkinson's, but for most humans with an IQ over 80 (below that is considered retarded), pointing and clicking shouldnt be too hard.... look at dot, point at head, click. HAAARRRRRDDDDD stuff.
The problem in games is that they require no skill, they require a minimum IQ of 100, but most people who play are in the 80-100 range, so those of us who are over 120 obviously seem good, but its not true, its that the others suck too much to actually react quickly to a given situation, they don't have the IQ to step out of the mold given to them in life, they panic, and die.
So let me ask what you define skill to be:
Is skill the only way you have to gratify yourselves in real life and suck so much at it that you have to claim that playing a video game takes some?
Is skill being capable of calculating a dps rotation correctly?
Is skill being able to do what your supposed to do at the right time like moving out of an AOE?
To me skill seems like a lame excuse for a retard in need of attention saying "Hey look at me, I got SkiLLz , I want you to make me famous" or something really similar.
Guess what, go speak with your neighbors, the adults, most of them are actually Skilled in something, some can build houses, some can run businesses... personally my main skill is that i can program computers and/or repair them. That is skill, pointing and clicking is not a skill, nor is pressing 1 and 2 on a keyboard.
I cannot see Starcraft falling into that category since it isnt twitch based. It does require user input, and it is real time, but it features many different challenges found in the traditional MMO.
Starcraft is about as 'twitchy' as they come. It's not a coincidence that the best players in the world have APM's that hit 400+. (That's actions per minute for those not in the know). You know what 400 APM's are, its 6-7 mouseclicks/keystrokes per second. SC pro's go through a regiment that trains their eye-to-hand coordination to move that quickly. In korea you can hire coaches that improve this aspect of gameplay and these coaches are highly sought after.
Most newbies think starcraft is just a strategy game. It's not. Yes, there are stategic elements to starcraft like using the best units to counter your oppoenents units, but even the worst counter units can stand a chance if your micro-management is very good. Also starcraft's strategy is very limited as everyone has a pretty good idea of the best units to counter other units. Thus the game ends with whomever is the better twitch player.
-------------------------------
As for 'skills', 'skills' come in a variety of packages including
- group synergy
- situation awareness
- game knowledge
- twitch reflexes
- command experience
Look at any professional team like spain's football team. Each player including coaches will have great expertise in one or more of the following aforementioned attributes.
You're oversimplifying what Starcraft is. Starcraft, on some level outside of "professional" gaming, is about getting the cheapest units out the quickest possible to overrun your opponent before they start producing more. Thus, it is about the zerg (not the race),
I think many do not actually understand starcraft. The mechanics require a player to strategize and use tactices while building the proper units in order to have character growth and benefits. I have seen matches with Nada where he wins with a few well placed sneak attacks and building in the right location rather than any type of "zerg'. The claim that zerging is the only way to play and the best way to win is just wrong. I highly encourage people to watch the starcraft tournament videos on youtube to see what I am talking about. Twitch is hardly part of the setup and strategy phase. Quick reactions are only required when dealing with certain combat encounters.
You're right in saying twitch hardly plays a part in the first 3 minutes of the game, but after that it's all twitch. Actually Quick reactions are part of the whole game. Starcraft plays extremely quickly when your micromanaging multiple bases and constructing multiple units, that even when you're not in combat your jumping and looking at multiple locations at the same time, not to mention having one eye at the minimap.
Look at those videos again and notice that the pros actually are multi-tasking pretty well. That's the twitch part. Micro-managing requires so much 'twitch' that it's amazing to watch these pros micro there resources as well as the battle.You can't just watch replays, watch videos (as in taken from fraps or a video camea) and you'll see how fast they are actually moving and how the screen locations change so fast (because they actually use the location hotkeys).
- Game knowledge (which units counter what or which units work best on the map)
- Twitch (micro-management of units)
But if I were to factor one metric to classify starcraft players proficiency, it would be APM's. Pro's like yellow have apm's that are past 400. If a pro had an apm of 300 compared to the one with 400, my money would be on the pro with 400 apms.
I very much agree with the OP. Games should require skill or they quickly shift into mindless grind. Yes, MMO developers want us to play in that matter because making a grind game is easy. Producing enjoyable, chellenging content is much harder, and less profitable from their point. It's easier just to throw some more instances at players and make them grind them dozens of times for a % chance at a rare drop.
What exactly is "skill" when we are looking at computer games?
Careful long term planning, eye-hand coordination, precision controls, quick micromanagment decisions, quick movements of controls, good comunications skills, good teamwork, wide knowledge about the world, players, the game and it's mechanics.
All of the above together form something called skill. Notice that "time involement" is not there. Ideal "skill-based" game would make "level limit player" on par with "fresh green noob" and both would have the same starting chances for some win situation and the overcome would be as little luck dependant as it gets. The slightly gray area is the experience in the game experience or practice (which I count as knowledge above), but if said noob would read some texts and watch some tutorial movies they would be almost on par on his first log-in and would get really on par very quickly.
The game most close to this ideal "Nub is on par with vet player" is a little charming game called Puzzle Pirates. This game is briliant by itself but would most probably not intrest so called "modern gamer" even with it's graphics it is really not a game for kids. But there gear doesnt mean anything just as time involvement. The only thing that really matter is how well you play the game.
There are half skill games out there where gameplay can be more important then statistics and gear. First one that come to my mind is Atlantica with it's somewhat tactical combat system. But sadly gear is really important there so not that much skill dependancy sadly. I don't really think there is a classical MMORPG where gameplay can overcome statistics and gear totally.
And there are character grind games where statistics and gear overwhelm all abovementioned "skills" I listed. Imagine the game like this. A player that has bought his account and is mostly clueless should win 100% times against some veteran player with his character with noob stats and gear. There are tons of games like that. Why? Because they are profitable. Every dumb gamer can spend 8 hours a day to gain advantage. Or even better, buy their advantage in the item mall. People who think and are talented or have the attention span to gain knowledge are the minority. And those people are not as easily satisfied with grindlike content that is easy to make. So they are low-priority targets for game developers. And up with the "there just isnt a game for me out there" feeling.
Finally, I think that this will change. Gamers just arent dumb teenagers anymore. And game makers will adapt to their tastes. I think that WoW-like games will still have its place but won't dominate the market so much as they do now.
You know, I have played MMOs off and on for over ten years, and while I keep hearing how MMOs don't take any "skill" I have yet to play one where there weren't good and bad players regardless of level and gear.
Because gaming takes real skill... like pushing a button on the keyboard...
I saw my brother playing WoW which i quit long ago the other day... he was doing pve pressing 1 2 3333333333333333333333333333
So he did pvp he pushed..... 2 3333333333333333333
Yes he tops dps and kills lists, but somehow he says that game is retarded, not that he has skill or something like that.
I play TF2, MW2 and a few other games... do you think i believe im skilled for topping point lists? Pointing and clicking something must be really hard for someone with parkinson's, but for most humans with an IQ over 80 (below that is considered retarded), pointing and clicking shouldnt be too hard.... look at dot, point at head, click. HAAARRRRRDDDDD stuff.
The problem in games is that they require no skill, they require a minimum IQ of 100, but most people who play are in the 80-100 range, so those of us who are over 120 obviously seem good, but its not true, its that the others suck too much to actually react quickly to a given situation, they don't have the IQ to step out of the mold given to them in life, they panic, and die.
So let me ask what you define skill to be:
Is skill the only way you have to gratify yourselves in real life and suck so much at it that you have to claim that playing a video game takes some?
Is skill being capable of calculating a dps rotation correctly?
Is skill being able to do what your supposed to do at the right time like moving out of an AOE?
To me skill seems like a lame excuse for a retard in need of attention saying "Hey look at me, I got SkiLLz , I want you to make me famous" or something really similar.
Guess what, go speak with your neighbors, the adults, most of them are actually Skilled in something, some can build houses, some can run businesses... personally my main skill is that i can program computers and/or repair them. That is skill, pointing and clicking is not a skill, nor is pressing 1 and 2 on a keyboard.
The notion that skill can't exist by virtue of a an mmo being an mmo is absolutely ludicrous. Now, i understand where people are coming from with games like WOW, which a mentally deficient 12 year old could play effectively to end game.
But, i can give you so many examples of skill both in PVE and PVP games. For example, having an underleved and underequipped group of 8 people taking down a better equipped, higher average level group in a PVP zone in a game like warhammer online. Thats skill in the form of working together, better assessing and reacting to changes in the situation, basically everything that defines skill in a team based game like football or basketball, etc.
PVE I give you the example of again, an underleveled, under-equipped group holding down a specific group camp in a dungeon. Specifically i'll mention PLA area in Sebilis in original EQ. I was a lev 54 paladin grouped with a 57 enchanter, between him being awesome at crowd control (moreso than most enchanters, to the point his screen would turn purple as soon as he logged on from tells for groups), and my assisting him in addition to my main tanking duties via stuns and roots, we were able to fight and XP in areas that were traditionally considered doable only by groups either much higher level, or in FAR better equipment (I.e. full planar gear, etc).
I too am a twitch gamer, i played my thousands of hours of Quake 1/2, UT, UT2K4, CS Beta->1.6, CS:S, Rainbow Six, COD1/2 on PC, all via lans, all on the internet etc. Twitch gamers who believe that twitching = skill are idiots. I have regularly hosed people who got the jump on me because i stayed calm enough to make sure i was aiming properly and strafing/mobing properly.
You people need to get it through your heads that a twitch style MMORPG will NEVER exist, because *gasp* its not an MMORPG, they've lready tried it and its been horribly unsuccesful, primarily due to balance issues.
If you want a twitch gaming experience, stick to your consoles or your FPS and stop whining and trying to change MMORPG's into something they simply arent.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Comments
Yawn...and yet another so called gamer who assumes the only thing going on in more "twitch" skill based games is the constant mashing of the attack button....
Ahhhh, now I understand...You must be one of those guys standing around doing nothing particularly useful all the while MCOM A or B has been rigged with a charge and it needs to be defused, but you just stand there trading shots with some other knucklehead in the enemy back forty. Or maybe you're the medic who passes three casualties on by in his charge to get shot down himself five steps later. Or one of the guys who never looks at the minimap, only running straight to the enemy uncap all the while Suburbs has fallen and the Train Accident flag is going down....
Must be all the lights and noise freakin your little mind out so that when someone is actually shooting you or one of your teammates you get that deer-in-the-headlights syndrome thing right?
Because your own "twitch" skills may be lacking is no reason to get upset that you can't shoot, move, and communicate with the youngsters any more. Because everyone knows there's no skill at all involved in looking at the minimap and seeing which objective is under attack and responding. Or on the other side seeing where the defenses are set up tight and finding another avenue of approach to get to the objective right?
But you are right. It IS about your character and not about You.
The question to ask here is does Player Character Skill overide Player Skill? Should it? Does the game being a PVE or vP focused game make a difference in that determination?
Mount and Blade is completely skill based and yet has a healthy dose of both PVE and PvP elements. Can such a game be made into a MMO?
PS: Oh and yeah I remember playing Castle Wolfenstein in Computer Science (when those classes even existed) and all the rest of that happy horse####. So what? It took me just a little over a week to make one star in MW2 when it released. Probably another to finish it to five and get prestige unlock (which I have NOT done. WaW was enough of that for me). I play tabletop Traveler D20 every other month and plenty other games both online and off. Again so what? Any time someone has to "harcken back to te good old days"....should automatically get suspicions up. Noone has a lock on what hardcore or what constitutes "real" gamer skills.
"Heart grow stronger, Will becomes firm, the Mind more calm, as our Strength lessens..." Battle of Maldon 991 AD
You might want to go read the OP's post. He wants to go zappity-zap-zap and solo "bosses" because he's just that amazing. This has nothing to do with the things you mentioned. He wants an MMO"RPG" which has, near as I can tell, no RPG elements -- just button mashing.
Team tactics, etc, are indeed a real test of skill. One reason I liked Warhammer was that the instanced maps and even the open PVP, if you were lucky enough to get vaguely balanced sides, really showed the difference between coordinated players who knew what they had to do for a team win and idiots running all over the place as if there was no goal but to charge the nearest enemy -- or large group of enemies,solo -- and die, over and over. The OP WANTS that to work. He wants "player skill" to mean he can rush into a huge group of enemies, PVE or PVP, and win every time. This is the antithesis of wanting a game which rewards strategy, planning, and tactics, even if *implementing* those tactics requires reflexes.
And, yup, my own "skills" do indeed suck, and I will never claim otherwise, and they did even when I was 13. Reflexes, not my thing. However, that's irrelevant to my argument.
(I'd love to see some more MMOs with a)harsh choices in character development and no easy respec/change... you make your picks, you live with 'em, and b)A harsh death penalty that doesn't overly punish one bad pull or one mistake, but which grows progressively worse the more times you die in a short period, to discourage people who just try to win by attrition or mindlessly attack because, who knows, they might get lucky.)
Sorry OP, but you are too far on the other end of the spectrum for the vast majority of people.
Yes, MMOS are lacking in a need for skill, but if a person can tank a boss naked, that is too far away from what I consider RPG elements. If it is possible for a person to solo things like that, the game looses a need for teamwork, and looses the need for an MMO aspect. Stick with your twitch games with crazy flashy moves. I doubt MMOs will ever have anything near what you are thinking.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Thread Summary:
I thinkz you iz all n00bz
every1 noez dat my kinda gamez iz better dan ur gamez cuz it take mad skillz to play MY kinda gamez
UR game iz jus 4 R Tardz and ijits
2 B a real game take shootemup skillz
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
The OP's post merely says that the succesful outcome of a fight, that emphasis should be upon the actions of the player in that fight and not the gear he has or what level his character is. A sentiment I can agree with but honestly don't know how you would integrate with contemporary RPG mechanics. Even Mass Effect 2, which changed it's combat mechanics to a more "twitch" style system, has increasing levels of abilities (read as "magical" skills). So a game which should be relatively easy to translate into an MMO (well I figure...) and which has a level of twitch style combat will still have a level of RPG mechanics as well, which in turn will influence any potential combat between players...
I would add that I do not agree with the OP that MMORPGs in their current or hell in any format at all, should be regarded as "carebear". They are what they are and that's all. I don't, as you also observe, see too many of the so called "hardcore" pvp types crying out for Final Death and so forth.
My point in my post was to be wary of assuming that the only thing being exercised in twitch based combat games are the reflexes needed to push the attack button as fast as humanly possible.
"Heart grow stronger, Will becomes firm, the Mind more calm, as our Strength lessens..." Battle of Maldon 991 AD
Search for Bloodline champions. Based on skill only, no gear, no level. I'm in the beta.
This is true.
However, if the OP desires the ability to beat any content (player or computer controlled) in an MMORPG single handedly, based on "skill", it's hard to see how he defines "skill" as anything other than button mashing, or, contrariwse, how the game he desires could be considered an MMORPG even under the very broad accepted definitions of the term. If gear or character abilities matter at all, then, given two equally skilled players, the better geared/specced/levelled whatever will win. If it doesn't matter at all, then what do you in the game besides just spawn and fight each other, and, if that's all you do, why not just play an FPS? Even if you focus on holding territory/claiming land/etc, you need to get some mechanical, in game benefit from doing so. (Something else we hardly ever see in MMORPGs is the use of terrain. How about attack bonuses if you have the high ground? How about forcing enemies into a narrow passage so they can only attack 1 by 1, with full collision so you can't just walk through your allies?)
For all the whining the allegedly "hardcore" do on these forums about how "carebear" instanced and/or level-segregated PVP is, in an MMORPG, that's about the only way you'll actually see "skill" -- when all equipment, class/character abilities, etc, are within a tight enough band that teamwork, knowledge, and training actually come into play. (I'd say "zerging takes 0 skill", but I've been in groups that couldn't organize even "Everyone charge the big guy" and pull it off. Sigh.)
And you believe youtube hahaha.
You still dont understand OP as so many themeparkers will never understand what he means:P
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Which MMO's don't take skill?
Correction, what P2P MMO's take skill, cus no F2P ones do.
Everything takes skill if you take it far enough. Just because you cry from exploiters does not mean they do not have skill, while victims always spam that. If you think it doesn't take skill to play the game you are, then stop playing, or get skill.
I think many do not actually understand starcraft. The mechanics require a player to strategize and use tactices while building the proper units in order to have character growth and benefits. I have seen matches with Nada where he wins with a few well placed sneak attacks and building in the right location rather than any type of "zerg'. The claim that zerging is the only way to play and the best way to win is just wrong. I highly encourage people to watch the starcraft tournament videos on youtube to see what I am talking about. Twitch is hardly part of the setup and strategy phase. Quick reactions are only required when dealing with certain combat encounters.
I would like to see this evidence before posting it as a fact. No really I would like to see it.
mmorpg's flop faster then mcdonalds cheese burgers these days.
I am also intrigued about this. The last time I heard about this was back in Vanilla when rogue's were so OP that they indeed could beat enemies while wearing nothing but the starter dagger.
WoW isn't only about pushing a button in the right order, it is also largely luck based with critical hit chance and whatnot.
Eleanor Rigby.
Agreed.
mmorpg's flop faster then mcdonalds cheese burgers these days.
Ha ha.. too funny Girl.. is that where " I PwNz U" was born?
First time poster, and while this isn't an MMORPG per se, it is an online FPS with RPG and RTS elements.
You owe it to yourself to try Savage 2: A free to play adrenaline-fest.
Check out these links to find out more about twitch/skill gameplay.
OFFICIAL WEBSITE
EXAMPLE OF WHAT A SKILLED PLAYER CAN DO (YOUTUBE)
You misunderstand me completely. I want there to be the possiblility for somebody to become a legend. You cannot become a legend in a mmo without making an ass out of yourself (famously by leeroy jenkins).
You people are pegging me with the wrong assumptions. I don't want a game where you push buttons to be leet I want a game were legends are born because the system allows for skill to come into affect. Where you aren't "hardcapped" like we are in most leveled MMOs.
So yes, that 1 person could solo a raid boss is an example of how someone could become legendary. Its a way they could show they are that good at the game and should not be indicative to the difficulty of said encounter. What I want is a David vs Goliath story from MMOs or a 300 Spartans vs Countless Persians or 200 Texas vs 5000 mexicans. I want the underdog to have a chance. As it stands right now in MMOs numbers + gear > all.
But then again you want to play a game where everyone is on a level playing field at max level so you dont feel inferior.
I want a pecking order, you want I win buttons.
Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3
Waiting on: Guild Wars 2
This is an extremely juvenile assumption and really shows that you have weak debating skills. Way to come troll my thread.
I never once said I was leet or called anyone noobs. I have repeatedely said I enjoy MMORPGs for what they are but I want a game that is more gear toward skilled gamers. I have repeated adnosium what I think skilled gamers are and I stand by that.
That you come in here and post that drivel makes me believe you just want to feel important and get laughs from other people that are afraid of change.
Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3
Waiting on: Guild Wars 2
I think I agree with the posts who argue on the definition of skill.
Skill type A: Hitting multiple targets "bullseye" from 25 yards with a 9mm, firing off rounds as fast as possible. Yeah that takes some skill, very twitch/fps style..
Skill type B: Undefeated Chess champion. Each game can take multiple days to complete, each move can take minutes, possibly hours.. Unless of course it's a timed match, but for the sake of argument, we got all the time in the world to play..
Both are very skilled people, however, you take type B and put him in situation A, well, the Chess player probably doesn't look very skilled trying to hit multiple targets with a gun..
Stick type A in situation B, well.. How good will those gunslinging skills do you, unless of course you plan on shooting your opponent if you lose..
Alot of the arguments here literally boil down to "Chess doesn't require skill because it isn't shooting a pistol" or "Shooting a pistol doesn't require a skill because it isn't playing chess". Well, no kidding, that's because they are two completely different skills.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
As others have stated: Skills and Skillz are relative terms. Your skillz are not going to be the same type as mine. So what this sounds like to me is that you want a game that adheres to and makes use of your particular skillz. As someone else stated, twitch gamers tend to be hybrids of FPS and MMO's.
In fact, with the advent of WoW (which arguably gave twitch gaming it's birth in the mmo universe) most games have at least tried to make efforts to appeal to the old gamers (strategy skills) and the younger guys (reflex skillz). In fact, there quite a few games on the horizon that do away with autotargeting and make use of reflects and FPS modes. Even The Secret World has a few leanings that way.
Personally, I'd rather have plan ahead and terrain strategies, but that is just where my skill set is different. There were a few of these games long ago, but I think they have vanished.
EDIT: upon rereading the OP's recent statements I think what they mean isn't actually skills but a mixture of the two. Have you tried World War 2 Online? The problem with the David VS Goliath metaphor is that the story is meant to explain an allegorical miracle, not an actual event. So if a player could defeat a mob because of his talents, it would still be considered a miracle.
Because gaming takes real skill... like pushing a button on the keyboard...
I saw my brother playing WoW which i quit long ago the other day... he was doing pve pressing 1 2 3333333333333333333333333333
So he did pvp he pushed..... 2 3333333333333333333
Yes he tops dps and kills lists, but somehow he says that game is retarded, not that he has skill or something like that.
I play TF2, MW2 and a few other games... do you think i believe im skilled for topping point lists? Pointing and clicking something must be really hard for someone with parkinson's, but for most humans with an IQ over 80 (below that is considered retarded), pointing and clicking shouldnt be too hard.... look at dot, point at head, click. HAAARRRRRDDDDD stuff.
The problem in games is that they require no skill, they require a minimum IQ of 100, but most people who play are in the 80-100 range, so those of us who are over 120 obviously seem good, but its not true, its that the others suck too much to actually react quickly to a given situation, they don't have the IQ to step out of the mold given to them in life, they panic, and die.
So let me ask what you define skill to be:
Is skill the only way you have to gratify yourselves in real life and suck so much at it that you have to claim that playing a video game takes some?
Is skill being capable of calculating a dps rotation correctly?
Is skill being able to do what your supposed to do at the right time like moving out of an AOE?
To me skill seems like a lame excuse for a retard in need of attention saying "Hey look at me, I got SkiLLz , I want you to make me famous" or something really similar.
Guess what, go speak with your neighbors, the adults, most of them are actually Skilled in something, some can build houses, some can run businesses... personally my main skill is that i can program computers and/or repair them. That is skill, pointing and clicking is not a skill, nor is pressing 1 and 2 on a keyboard.
You're right in saying twitch hardly plays a part in the first 3 minutes of the game, but after that it's all twitch. Actually Quick reactions are part of the whole game. Starcraft plays extremely quickly when your micromanaging multiple bases and constructing multiple units, that even when you're not in combat your jumping and looking at multiple locations at the same time, not to mention having one eye at the minimap.
Look at those videos again and notice that the pros actually are multi-tasking pretty well. That's the twitch part. Micro-managing requires so much 'twitch' that it's amazing to watch these pros micro there resources as well as the battle.You can't just watch replays, watch videos (as in taken from fraps or a video camea) and you'll see how fast they are actually moving and how the screen locations change so fast (because they actually use the location hotkeys).
Hence starcrafts skillset are:
-------------------------------------------
- Group synergy/dynamics (multiplayer)
- situational awareness (watching minimap/scouting opponents)
- Game knowledge (which units counter what or which units work best on the map)
- Twitch (micro-management of units)
But if I were to factor one metric to classify starcraft players proficiency, it would be APM's. Pro's like yellow have apm's that are past 400. If a pro had an apm of 300 compared to the one with 400, my money would be on the pro with 400 apms.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Actions_per_minute
I very much agree with the OP. Games should require skill or they quickly shift into mindless grind. Yes, MMO developers want us to play in that matter because making a grind game is easy. Producing enjoyable, chellenging content is much harder, and less profitable from their point. It's easier just to throw some more instances at players and make them grind them dozens of times for a % chance at a rare drop.
What exactly is "skill" when we are looking at computer games?
Careful long term planning, eye-hand coordination, precision controls, quick micromanagment decisions, quick movements of controls, good comunications skills, good teamwork, wide knowledge about the world, players, the game and it's mechanics.
All of the above together form something called skill. Notice that "time involement" is not there. Ideal "skill-based" game would make "level limit player" on par with "fresh green noob" and both would have the same starting chances for some win situation and the overcome would be as little luck dependant as it gets. The slightly gray area is the experience in the game experience or practice (which I count as knowledge above), but if said noob would read some texts and watch some tutorial movies they would be almost on par on his first log-in and would get really on par very quickly.
The game most close to this ideal "Nub is on par with vet player" is a little charming game called Puzzle Pirates. This game is briliant by itself but would most probably not intrest so called "modern gamer" even with it's graphics it is really not a game for kids. But there gear doesnt mean anything just as time involvement. The only thing that really matter is how well you play the game.
There are half skill games out there where gameplay can be more important then statistics and gear. First one that come to my mind is Atlantica with it's somewhat tactical combat system. But sadly gear is really important there so not that much skill dependancy sadly. I don't really think there is a classical MMORPG where gameplay can overcome statistics and gear totally.
And there are character grind games where statistics and gear overwhelm all abovementioned "skills" I listed. Imagine the game like this. A player that has bought his account and is mostly clueless should win 100% times against some veteran player with his character with noob stats and gear. There are tons of games like that. Why? Because they are profitable. Every dumb gamer can spend 8 hours a day to gain advantage. Or even better, buy their advantage in the item mall. People who think and are talented or have the attention span to gain knowledge are the minority. And those people are not as easily satisfied with grindlike content that is easy to make. So they are low-priority targets for game developers. And up with the "there just isnt a game for me out there" feeling.
Finally, I think that this will change. Gamers just arent dumb teenagers anymore. And game makers will adapt to their tastes. I think that WoW-like games will still have its place but won't dominate the market so much as they do now.
You know, I have played MMOs off and on for over ten years, and while I keep hearing how MMOs don't take any "skill" I have yet to play one where there weren't good and bad players regardless of level and gear.
I
this post.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
The notion that skill can't exist by virtue of a an mmo being an mmo is absolutely ludicrous. Now, i understand where people are coming from with games like WOW, which a mentally deficient 12 year old could play effectively to end game.
But, i can give you so many examples of skill both in PVE and PVP games. For example, having an underleved and underequipped group of 8 people taking down a better equipped, higher average level group in a PVP zone in a game like warhammer online. Thats skill in the form of working together, better assessing and reacting to changes in the situation, basically everything that defines skill in a team based game like football or basketball, etc.
PVE I give you the example of again, an underleveled, under-equipped group holding down a specific group camp in a dungeon. Specifically i'll mention PLA area in Sebilis in original EQ. I was a lev 54 paladin grouped with a 57 enchanter, between him being awesome at crowd control (moreso than most enchanters, to the point his screen would turn purple as soon as he logged on from tells for groups), and my assisting him in addition to my main tanking duties via stuns and roots, we were able to fight and XP in areas that were traditionally considered doable only by groups either much higher level, or in FAR better equipment (I.e. full planar gear, etc).
I too am a twitch gamer, i played my thousands of hours of Quake 1/2, UT, UT2K4, CS Beta->1.6, CS:S, Rainbow Six, COD1/2 on PC, all via lans, all on the internet etc. Twitch gamers who believe that twitching = skill are idiots. I have regularly hosed people who got the jump on me because i stayed calm enough to make sure i was aiming properly and strafing/mobing properly.
You people need to get it through your heads that a twitch style MMORPG will NEVER exist, because *gasp* its not an MMORPG, they've lready tried it and its been horribly unsuccesful, primarily due to balance issues.
If you want a twitch gaming experience, stick to your consoles or your FPS and stop whining and trying to change MMORPG's into something they simply arent.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche