TERA definitely has skill factored into all of its game play.
TERA... Really? That's the only one you consider to have a skill factor? What happend to Vindictus, APB and many other games that don't use the cliche tab targetting ? I call fanboyism or possible sell out >_>.
It seems unlikely that there will be an MMO that creates the sort of skill gap that would enable a single skilled player to single-handedly rampage large groups based on skill alone, however so defined (something that is possible in Savage 2 by the way -- wonder why nobody plays that game...).
So, if you define "skill" as twitch, there are games that are adding that element, but what you're really concerned about ultimately is skill gap, something which is mutually inconsistent with a large, open-world game that seeks to cater to both casual and hardcore players alike. If you won't be satisfied until you see that game, you won't be satisfied for a long, long time.
I think you're missing the main problem. In a game like TF2, someone who plays maybe 2 - 3 hours a day can still get to the point where they're a good player. You throw in levels and equipment that greatly influence the outcome of a fight but make them take excessive amounts of time to get, and that guy who has 2 - 3 hours a day will never ever have a chance. He will get his shit stomped in at every possible corner. What players want is the chance to overcome players with superior equipment and levels through the use of ingame mechanics. In WoW for example a level 30 is never going to kill a 60, it's just not possible thanks to the horrible game mechanics.
The reason I cut down your post by the way was because I wanted to address those two paragraphs. The first, Savage 2 isn't really an MMORPG, and the fact that players could singlehandledly destroy groups of other players via skill isn't the reason it died. Asheron's Call released in 1999 also had the form of skill where a single good player could take down large groups, and that had a steady subscriber count of around ~100,000 people for quite some time. Savage 2 attempted to market itself to a larger audience than the first, but fundamentally changed the core of the game by adding all those strange RPG style skills to it, and as a result alienated itself from both the original playerbase and from most gamers as well.
So the main issue is that players who have excessive amounts of time who are incredibly stupid and have terrible reflexes can be incredibly successful merely because they're capable of subjecting themselves to mindnumbing repetitive grind. Often times this turns them into gods. See Darkfall, it's the perfect example of that. A lot of us simply want to be successful in a game because we have good judgement, good reflexes, we're capable of using our brains, etc.
I can guarantee this has already been brought up somewhere in the last 21 pages but it really doesn't matter what game type you are playing there will always be a skill factor. I have found that many players who are not good at a certain game type will immediately jump on the it's not my fault, that guy had X advantage wagon. (where X equals either an "obviously overpowered and cheap gun", a certain piece of gear from that sweet instance, or even "the character model they were using is smaller then mine and it's too hard to hit") Sure there are going to be times during contests between players of equal skill where that one weapon or that piece of armor is going to make the difference but I find that those kinds of contests are few and far between. Just because you have a series of "powers" in a standard mmo doesn't mean that any monkey could hit 1-0 and win just because you had the games best gear. You have to know your class, know your cooldowns, be aware of you miss chances, have your eye on items like potions you may have just in case things go wrong. Execution of your skills on the fly in the best combination to counter your oponents actions againt you is the way you measure skill in those kinds of games, not in how likly you are to get a head shot because you moved your mouse to just the right place and clicked at just the right nanosecond. Not that that isn't impressive, it's just different!0
Let me give you an example. I have a buddy that plays WoW. He plays a mage or something. He will walk into every flight and try to unleash his biggest moves the very first thing in the match. Now sometimes he wins because people are not expecting that barrage of button mashing, but more often he will get stunned or hit or in some other way inhibited and he looses the match. He has some of the best gear, he has all the right traits to win, his execution is just very poor and that is why he looses. Is he stupid? yes. Is it his opponents superior gear that makes him loose ? No. Do i love him? Yeah. Do I make fun of him every time he logs out pissed? You can put money on it.
So anyway I'm just saying that just because some of you are really good at a certain type of game don't hold that up as the reason why that style of game is for skillful players and the rest of the games are for "noobs" or "munchkins" or whatever you want to call them. Chances are that if you are not taking out guys of equal level it's not their superior X factor, it's their superior skill. Learn to accept it.
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I'd like to see skill added. Specifically, I'd like to see IQ-based puzzles. If you can't solve it, you don't progress. This way people with good mental skills are rewarded. Kinda like those little lock-opening things in Mass Effect, only more hardcore.
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Far too many people seem to want to equate twitch based combat and the constant practice that it requires as skill.
But for others the skill involved in learning how to execute a complex fight, being aware of the situation and adjusting what they are doing accordingly. There is also the skill associated in knowing what to use when in order to maximize damage done, minimize damage taken and in PvE hold threat if the MMO has tanks.
The original poster admited to perfering twitch based activitiy. So for him a game without that would probably not be seen as requiring skill. My responce is that it does not require the skill that he enjoys. There is nothing wrong in that till a person converts the statement from "The game does not require the skill that I enjoy." to "The game requires no skill." The first statement is accurate and allows people to properly decide if they are like the person that made the statement and would not find it fun. The second statement has the same bias but tries to force all games into being what they like to play and ignore that there are other game preferences and reasons to play.
Far too many people seem to want to equate twitch based combat and the constant practice that it requires as skill.
But for others the skill involved in learning how to execute a complex fight, being aware of the situation and adjusting what they are doing accordingly. There is also the skill associated in knowing what to use when in order to maximize damage done, minimize damage taken and in PvE hold threat if the MMO has tanks.
The original poster admited to perfering twitch based activitiy. So for him a game without that would probably not be seen as requiring skill. My responce is that it does not require the skill that he enjoys. There is nothing wrong in that till a person converts the statement from "The game does not require the skill that I enjoy." to "The game requires no skill." The first statement is accurate and allows people to properly decide if they are like the person that made the statement and would not find it fun. The second statement has the same bias but tries to force all games into being what they like to play and ignore that there are other game preferences and reasons to play.
The problem is with all this turn based style play with global cool downs and auto attack and lock on targeting things become fairly .... static. Many of them include classes and levels which which add to this. Regardless of environment everything is fairly predictable.
With the style of game play most MMO's share it's more rock paper scissors with nice graphics and animations. AI doesn't help either, you learn the strategy to beat an encounter, mob, boss, or w/e and thats how you beat it each time. There's little room for on the fly creative thinking.
It goes beyond the limited combat systems that games use. Sure I can admit I prefer more twitch based game play because it does require more skill. I'm not just talking about aiming either. You have to learn to utilize cover, coordinate with team mates, try not to kill your team mates with friendly fire lol, be wary of the environment and use it to your advantage.
Twitch play not only requires hand eye coordination that standard MMORPG's don't but it also requires on the fly thinking, tactics and strategy. It's a system that rewards not just those with better aim, but those with more cunning. I mean you take just about any MMO with PvP and it's 3 vs. 6 in melee combat. Those 3 could be more skilled players, but they will more likely lose because of the lack of skill and strategic options in a more traditional system.
Use the same scenario in a more twitch based environment. Those 3 can find a corridor or some other tight place to remove the numbers advantage the other side has.
I'm sorry having played both for years and doing very well against most in PvP I just haven't found much skill to be needed in your traditional MMO setup. I mean after UO every MMO I've played (With the exception of DFO and one or two others) I did so while watching TV, Hulu or movies.... sometimes even while playing another game and still managed to do very well.
Simply put ....
Players > AI
A more twitch or action based system > Slow play, turnbased and cooldown watching type of gameplay that has become standard.
Far too many people seem to want to equate twitch based combat and the constant practice that it requires as skill.
But for others the skill involved in learning how to execute a complex fight, being aware of the situation and adjusting what they are doing accordingly. There is also the skill associated in knowing what to use when in order to maximize damage done, minimize damage taken and in PvE hold threat if the MMO has tanks.
The original poster admited to perfering twitch based activitiy. So for him a game without that would probably not be seen as requiring skill. My responce is that it does not require the skill that he enjoys. There is nothing wrong in that till a person converts the statement from "The game does not require the skill that I enjoy." to "The game requires no skill." The first statement is accurate and allows people to properly decide if they are like the person that made the statement and would not find it fun. The second statement has the same bias but tries to force all games into being what they like to play and ignore that there are other game preferences and reasons to play.
This was probably the best "first" post I have ever read. I also agree with it. I believe mmorpgs require skill to play, and I have proof. My fiance can not, for the life of her, play a mmorpg...but she can kick your ass in Socom or CoD. She lacks the skill to play one type of game, but has tons of skill to play the other type.
Every game ever invented requires some form of skill.
To the OP...I personally think that the "skill" needed to play and be successful at a game is the skill of understanding and processing knowledge. I think "twitch" is highly over-rated as a "skill." I'm pretty sure it's much more of a reflex....
The reason I'm good at FPS games isn't because I "twitch" well, it's because I know the map and I have a good understanding of people. I know what they're going to do and I know how they will react to certain situations. It's because I've studied, understood and processed the information that I have a high k/d ratio, w/l ratio and hit percentage. In mmorpgs it's the reason my party does not wipe and the reason my guild wins pvp battles. It's the reason I win races in driving games and why I survive survival games....
I will admit though, when it comes to fighter games, I'm average...it's all the damn combo buttons and directional pad inputs lol I'll get a handful of more wins than losses on a good day...
Far too many people seem to want to equate twitch based combat and the constant practice that it requires as skill.
But for others the skill involved in learning how to execute a complex fight, being aware of the situation and adjusting what they are doing accordingly. There is also the skill associated in knowing what to use when in order to maximize damage done, minimize damage taken and in PvE hold threat if the MMO has tanks.
The original poster admited to perfering twitch based activitiy. So for him a game without that would probably not be seen as requiring skill. My responce is that it does not require the skill that he enjoys. There is nothing wrong in that till a person converts the statement from "The game does not require the skill that I enjoy." to "The game requires no skill." The first statement is accurate and allows people to properly decide if they are like the person that made the statement and would not find it fun. The second statement has the same bias but tries to force all games into being what they like to play and ignore that there are other game preferences and reasons to play.
This was probably the best "first" post I have ever read. I also agree with it. I believe mmorpgs require skill to play, and I have proof. My fiance can not, for the life of her, play a mmorpg...but she can kick your ass in Socom or CoD. She lacks the skill to play one type of game, but has tons of skill to play the other type.
Every game ever invented requires some form of skill.
To the OP...I personally think that the "skill" needed to play and be successful at a game is the skill of understanding and processing knowledge. I think "twitch" is highly over-rated as a "skill." I'm pretty sure it's much more of a reflex....
The reason I'm good at FPS games isn't because I "twitch" well, it's because I know the map and I have a good understanding of people. I know what they're going to do and I know how they will react to certain situations. It's because I've studied, understood and processed the information that I have a high k/d ratio, w/l ratio and hit percentage. In mmorpgs it's the reason my party does not wipe and the reason my guild wins pvp battles. It's the reason I win races in driving games and why I survive survival games....
I will admit though, when it comes to fighter games, I'm average...it's all the damn combo buttons and directional pad inputs lol I'll get a handful of more wins than losses on a good day...
Uh, there's a huge difference between twitch action (UT) and tactical shooters (CS)....
It seems that people are starting to bend what twitch mechanics actually means...which is pretty much Spray and Pray mechanics if you ask me...
To answer the OP: Nope. MMORPGs shouldn't be about twitchy skill, they should be about the world. Sadly nearly every MMO fails at this anymore. Twitch gamers have plenty of other shallow gaming experiences to enjoy, no need to ruin MMORPGs even more by catering to that.
To answer the OP: Nope. MMORPGs shouldn't be about twitchy skill, they should be about the world. Sadly nearly every MMO fails at this anymore. Twitch gamers have plenty of other shallow gaming experiences to enjoy, no need to ruin MMORPGs even more by catering to that.
I agree, the MMOFPS will be making a huge break in the gaming world soon enough, no need to ruin rpgs with twitch gaming mechanics.
To answer the OP: Nope. MMORPGs shouldn't be about twitchy skill, they should be about the world. Sadly nearly every MMO fails at this anymore. Twitch gamers have plenty of other shallow gaming experiences to enjoy, no need to ruin MMORPGs even more by catering to that.
MMORPG's are already in a sad state, fewer and fewer are interested in the micromanagement play style. It has it's place but not in every single MMO lol.
If you watched two videos side by side, one of someone playing an FPS and one of someone playing an MMO, NOT the in game footage, but the actual person. you would see only two differences. they guy on Modern Warfare is twiddling his fingers on a gamepad, but wait, there's more, the MMO guy is doing exactly the same thing but with a keyboard and mouse.
yep, that's right they are BOTH twiddling their fingers, the only difference is what they are using as an input device. I can assure you that on the very first day that the FPS guy played Modern Warfare, he died, and died, and died, and died again, and again, and again. now, half a year later he has died millions of times. that's right the only reason he can pwn so many newbs so quickly is because when he was a newb, he got p^%##$ off so many times that learned how not to die. he learned how to use the game mechanics to his advantage so that he wouldn't die, and because he died so many many times, he couldn't help but memorize the location of EVERY enemy, EVERY drop EVERY single item and location of interest, you'll notice that he knows exactly where to go and what do, and that's only because of how many times he died doing the same thing over and over again and again.
the same thing is true for MMO's, only that instead of dying, the MMO guy just got faster, and even though he didn't die as much as the FPS guy, he was still able to memorize everything there is in his MMO because of how many toons he started and how many times he played through the same content, over and over again and again.
that's the only real difference between the games, FPS players get better by dying, in fact there isn't anyone better at dying than they are, because that is all they do, basically they just die a bunch and the learn how NOT to die.
MMO players don't really die, they learn by doing the same thing over and over as parts of different quests.
and in response to all the thoughtless people out there who will say something like "but the environment in FPS's is ever changing, everything is different each time"
quite simply, no, it isn't, if you play in a map, the next time you play in that same map, it will still be the same, what I mean by this is that the epic sniper spot in the top of that building is still going to be there and is still going to be an epic sniper spot every...single...time...you play...on that...map, same for everything else, no matter how you slash it, if there is a route behind a building good for ambushing the enemy, it will always be a good place to ambush the enemy, and whoever knows about that place will have the upper hand, and it isn't the most skilled player either
...it's the most knowledgeable one
All of that goes for MMO's as well, whoever knows the most, has the upper hand, and no matter hoe you slice it, neither genre requires more skill than the other, in fact, neither no game truly requires skill.
if you want skill that bad, then GET A SKILL, go to a shooting range and learn how to fire a gun or a bow and arrow quickly and accurately, that takes SKILL. Go play basketball that takes SKILL. go golfing or fishing or go and play some tennis, all of those activities all require SKILL, so does fencing and other sword type combat activities. If you are sitting on your butt, twiddling your fingers, while playing a game, you are using your knowledge to respond to something that happened in a screen buy pushing buttons and not any kind of skill as skills are something that can only be gained IN...REAL...LIFE. Not even games that utilize the wii or xbox kinect or playstation move to create an almost real environment can prepare you for the REAL THING. that's all I have to say on the matter.
If I were to translate skill based mmorpgs into something that everyone understands, it would probably be called:
Tactical Action Fighter (TAF) MMORPG
As a martial artist, the problem with trying to create one is that there are just so many different types of actions that go into creating this particular type of game play that it's nearly impossible to truly create...in fact, the number of animations that would have to be created for each particular type of physical maneuver (not to mention the varying styles and stances) would range in the 10s of thousands if not more....It would take close to a decade just to get the animations down unless you have an ARMY of battle ready animators and martial art choreographers at your disposal...
So there's one of two ways we can go about physically digitizing ourselves:
1. We motion capture every single type of physical combat maneuver with every type of weapon (both realistic and fantasy) and create a standardized package from which all developers can access royalty free. (I believe there's a company out there that's already trying to do this???)
2. We bring the motion capture equipment into the home and physically do it ourselves like in Wii fit or like with that new thing that's coming to the xbox.
The first would be more cinematic but would take a lot of time to produce and would inevitably take up an insane amount of space while the other would require extra equipment and would probably be a turn off to people who are not physically fit.
Just remember folks, Skill = MORE physical control and LESS dice rolling...that is the argument here.
All in all, Skill-Based S&S (TAFMMORPG) is a hell of a lot more than just mimicking the FPS style of combat. In fact, it's probably the greatest challenge in game development history.
I am more interested in an MMO that rewards strategic use of whats around them, planning, and knowledge. More than just knowing the best order of skills to max DPS, or something along those lines. I would settle for just auto attack, my fingers don't like this smashing of keys over and over again.
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To answer the OP: Nope. MMORPGs shouldn't be about twitchy skill, they should be about the world. Sadly nearly every MMO fails at this anymore. Twitch gamers have plenty of other shallow gaming experiences to enjoy, no need to ruin MMORPGs even more by catering to that.
I agree, the MMOFPS will be making a huge break in the gaming world soon enough, no need to ruin rpgs with twitch gaming mechanics.
Looks like there doing a fine job of ruining rpgs all by themselves.
Honestly. If the combat system is not a big enough selling point for you then you're probably not going to enjoy the game. That's the blunt truth here. What makes these games different than other MMOs isn't the game itself, but rather the way in which the game is played.
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If I were to translate skill based mmorpgs into something that everyone understands, it would probably be called:
Tactical Action Fighter (TAF) MMORPG
As a martial artist, the problem with trying to create one is that there are just so many different types of actions that go into creating this particular type of game play that it's nearly impossible to truly create...in fact, the number of animations that would have to be created for each particular type of physical maneuver (not to mention the varying styles and stances) would range in the 10s of thousands if not more....It would take close to a decade just to get the animations down unless you have an ARMY of battle ready animators and martial art choreographers at your disposal...
So there's one of two ways we can go about physically digitizing ourselves:
1. We motion capture every single type of physical combat maneuver with every type of weapon (both realistic and fantasy) and create a standardized package from which all developers can access royalty free. (I believe there's a company out there that's already trying to do this???)
2. We bring the motion capture equipment into the home and physically do it ourselves like in Wii fit or like with that new thing that's coming to the xbox.
The first would be more cinematic but would take a lot of time to produce and would inevitably take up an insane amount of space while the other would require extra equipment and would probably be a turn off to people who are not physically fit.
Just remember folks, Skill = MORE physical control and LESS dice rolling...that is the argument here.
All in all, Skill-Based S&S (TAFMMORPG) is a hell of a lot more than just mimicking the FPS style of combat. In fact, it's probably the greatest challenge in game development history.
Actually, for your first way, there is already a Discovery documentary (i think is from Discovery) where they tested every martial art: their skills, their movements, their strengths, speeds, grabs, using all weapons (and the difference in damage and in using the weapon, the pros and cons). EVERYTHING was already done once, including Shaolin-kung-fu and ninjutso (yes, ninjutso really exists and ITS RARE, and kids, its not like naruto ok lol jk ^^).
They did this to prove what martial art is the stronger, but they just got the conclusion that every martial art or weapon is stronger in their own characteristics and weaker in others, making possible for a boxer to win against a shaolin if he could pull only 1 KO punch in the face.
If a company could really get this info and test a little on their own, it really could be a great way of getting profit for the company and the game industry would really get a great advantage from it. INCLUDING MMORPGs. I mean, ppl talk about FPS style and RPG style.
First of all, the new mmorpgs coming dont have FPS style, since its not a First person and is not a shooter (well, most of them are fantasy-type, the only thing simillar to a shooter might be archers and mages lol).
Second, this new kind of Action-MMORPG (or non-targetting MMORPG as some ppl call it) is in the early ages, theres so many things to test, to try, and to create with it, why get so "against" it if most ppl dont have even tried it and dont know what the future brings us. If mmorpg players think that these kind of games are going to ruin mmorpgs, well go play your kind of mmorpgs (there are hundreds out there and there will be more).
Now, returning to the example of the different martial arts. If mmorpgs get the idea of using skills like reflexes, fast decisions, etc. into account, it might be a great contribution. Lets be realistic: mmorpgs right now do give too much credit to gear and level stats. Of course, there's skill in playing these games, using the right "skills" (powers) at the right time, using different classes for different purposes, using taunt or freeze when needed. These are all skills. But no matter what these kind of skills are, gear and level stats are always the major difference in mmorpgs. No matter what you have learned and how good your skills got since 2 months ago, if you find a guy with a better gear and/or a higher lvl, you will almost certainly lose.
This is something that players and some devs wanna change. Using Non-targetting system is the best way there is, because is the only way where statistics of level and gear arent necessary to be a good player. Of course, some statistics must still be implementd but IMHO putting +1str/+2agi is not the right way. We want to play and have fun.
One last hing that i tried to say in other posts. Has everyone tried to play Star Wars Jedi Academy online against other players without using cheats or "special weapons"?? i have, and i might say, i had the best online fights in my life there, and there were no snipers, no aimbots, no gear or stats. Only the ability to run, dodge, jump, clash of jedi sabers, struggle, run on the wall and using "skills" (Powers) like force-push, etc. The perfect match between rpg and non-targetting system, but in a PVP way. If MMORPGs could this, than i have to say, everyone will be happy i swear. SW:TOR thats coming is not the thing i wanted btw, its wierd -.-" lol
Just my thoughts. And BTW, i like your TAF MMORPG definition illincrux!
If you watched two videos side by side, one of someone playing an FPS and one of someone playing an MMO, NOT the in game footage, but the actual person. you would see only two differences. they guy on Modern Warfare is twiddling his fingers on a gamepad, but wait, there's more, the MMO guy is doing exactly the same thing but with a keyboard and mouse.
yep, that's right they are BOTH twiddling their fingers, the only difference is what they are using as an input device. I can assure you that on the very first day that the FPS guy played Modern Warfare, he died, and died, and died, and died again, and again, and again. now, half a year later he has died millions of times. that's right the only reason he can pwn so many newbs so quickly is because when he was a newb, he got p^%##$ off so many times that learned how not to die. he learned how to use the game mechanics to his advantage so that he wouldn't die, and because he died so many many times, he couldn't help but memorize the location of EVERY enemy, EVERY drop EVERY single item and location of interest, you'll notice that he knows exactly where to go and what do, and that's only because of how many times he died doing the same thing over and over again and again.
the same thing is true for MMO's, only that instead of dying, the MMO guy just got faster, and even though he didn't die as much as the FPS guy, he was still able to memorize everything there is in his MMO because of how many toons he started and how many times he played through the same content, over and over again and again.
that's the only real difference between the games, FPS players get better by dying, in fact there isn't anyone better at dying than they are, because that is all they do, basically they just die a bunch and the learn how NOT to die.
MMO players don't really die, they learn by doing the same thing over and over as parts of different quests.
and in response to all the thoughtless people out there who will say something like "but the environment in FPS's is ever changing, everything is different each time"
quite simply, no, it isn't, if you play in a map, the next time you play in that same map, it will still be the same, what I mean by this is that the epic sniper spot in the top of that building is still going to be there and is still going to be an epic sniper spot every...single...time...you play...on that...map, same for everything else, no matter how you slash it, if there is a route behind a building good for ambushing the enemy, it will always be a good place to ambush the enemy, and whoever knows about that place will have the upper hand, and it isn't the most skilled player either
...it's the most knowledgeable one
All of that goes for MMO's as well, whoever knows the most, has the upper hand, and no matter hoe you slice it, neither genre requires more skill than the other, in fact, neither no game truly requires skill.
if you want skill that bad, then GET A SKILL, go to a shooting range and learn how to fire a gun or a bow and arrow quickly and accurately, that takes SKILL. Go play basketball that takes SKILL. go golfing or fishing or go and play some tennis, all of those activities all require SKILL, so does fencing and other sword type combat activities. If you are sitting on your butt, twiddling your fingers, while playing a game, you are using your knowledge to respond to something that happened in a screen buy pushing buttons and not any kind of skill as skills are something that can only be gained IN...REAL...LIFE. Not even games that utilize the wii or xbox kinect or playstation move to create an almost real environment can prepare you for the REAL THING. that's all I have to say on the matter.
Sure, both types of gamers are twiddling their fingers, but that has nothing to do with the amount of skill that the two players are exhibiting at a particular game, or more importantly for this thread, how the mechanics of gameplay reward skillful play.
Think of single player games for a moment, some are complicated and difficult to play and some are much easier. It would be difficult to tell which of the two a gamer is playing just by watching the player.
One way to introduce 'skill' is to add 'twitch gaming' aspects to gameplay. Another is simply to add large amounts of complexity to the mechanics of the game. How often does an opponents' actions require a change in tactics? If the answer is A LOT changes between fights, chances are you are playing a complicated game.
Sorry OP, but you are too far on the other end of the spectrum for the vast majority of people.
Yes, MMOS are lacking in a need for skill, but if a person can tank a boss naked, that is too far away from what I consider RPG elements. If it is possible for a person to solo things like that, the game looses a need for teamwork, and looses the need for an MMO aspect. Stick with your twitch games with crazy flashy moves. I doubt MMOs will ever have anything near what you are thinking.
1st: Saying there is no skill is a bit exagerated . Eg: i once killed two hordies in WoW who both were a lvl higher than me and one of them had the same class as me. If there was no such thing as skills (or lack thereof , as i suck at pvp in wow) i wouldnt have been able to kill two guys a lvl higher than me attacking me together. And it wasn't a twink either. (it was 1st char) .
But i must agree skills sometimes lack and often in PvE , simply because the encounters are static . A form of skill is being able to adapt to the situation and in PvE its always the same . Boss X won't suddenly use an ability he never used because he felt like it . And even in PvE there is a bit of skill required. (a little bit but still something) . I can tell that because i have been in raids which failed mind boggling hard while we outgeared the raid by far .
2nd: End Of Nations. I think that if any MMO might give an opportunity to make skills important it must be that one for the simple reason it's going to be an MMORTS and from personal experience the most skill intensive games are often RTS's .
So personally i think expecting an MMORPG to be skill intensive is a dream , the genre just doesn't allow that much skill to be involved.
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TERA... Really? That's the only one you consider to have a skill factor? What happend to Vindictus, APB and many other games that don't use the cliche tab targetting ? I call fanboyism or possible sell out >_>.
I think you're missing the main problem. In a game like TF2, someone who plays maybe 2 - 3 hours a day can still get to the point where they're a good player. You throw in levels and equipment that greatly influence the outcome of a fight but make them take excessive amounts of time to get, and that guy who has 2 - 3 hours a day will never ever have a chance. He will get his shit stomped in at every possible corner. What players want is the chance to overcome players with superior equipment and levels through the use of ingame mechanics. In WoW for example a level 30 is never going to kill a 60, it's just not possible thanks to the horrible game mechanics.
The reason I cut down your post by the way was because I wanted to address those two paragraphs. The first, Savage 2 isn't really an MMORPG, and the fact that players could singlehandledly destroy groups of other players via skill isn't the reason it died. Asheron's Call released in 1999 also had the form of skill where a single good player could take down large groups, and that had a steady subscriber count of around ~100,000 people for quite some time. Savage 2 attempted to market itself to a larger audience than the first, but fundamentally changed the core of the game by adding all those strange RPG style skills to it, and as a result alienated itself from both the original playerbase and from most gamers as well.
So the main issue is that players who have excessive amounts of time who are incredibly stupid and have terrible reflexes can be incredibly successful merely because they're capable of subjecting themselves to mindnumbing repetitive grind. Often times this turns them into gods. See Darkfall, it's the perfect example of that. A lot of us simply want to be successful in a game because we have good judgement, good reflexes, we're capable of using our brains, etc.
I can guarantee this has already been brought up somewhere in the last 21 pages but it really doesn't matter what game type you are playing there will always be a skill factor. I have found that many players who are not good at a certain game type will immediately jump on the it's not my fault, that guy had X advantage wagon. (where X equals either an "obviously overpowered and cheap gun", a certain piece of gear from that sweet instance, or even "the character model they were using is smaller then mine and it's too hard to hit") Sure there are going to be times during contests between players of equal skill where that one weapon or that piece of armor is going to make the difference but I find that those kinds of contests are few and far between. Just because you have a series of "powers" in a standard mmo doesn't mean that any monkey could hit 1-0 and win just because you had the games best gear. You have to know your class, know your cooldowns, be aware of you miss chances, have your eye on items like potions you may have just in case things go wrong. Execution of your skills on the fly in the best combination to counter your oponents actions againt you is the way you measure skill in those kinds of games, not in how likly you are to get a head shot because you moved your mouse to just the right place and clicked at just the right nanosecond. Not that that isn't impressive, it's just different!0
Let me give you an example. I have a buddy that plays WoW. He plays a mage or something. He will walk into every flight and try to unleash his biggest moves the very first thing in the match. Now sometimes he wins because people are not expecting that barrage of button mashing, but more often he will get stunned or hit or in some other way inhibited and he looses the match. He has some of the best gear, he has all the right traits to win, his execution is just very poor and that is why he looses. Is he stupid? yes. Is it his opponents superior gear that makes him loose ? No. Do i love him? Yeah. Do I make fun of him every time he logs out pissed? You can put money on it.
So anyway I'm just saying that just because some of you are really good at a certain type of game don't hold that up as the reason why that style of game is for skillful players and the rest of the games are for "noobs" or "munchkins" or whatever you want to call them. Chances are that if you are not taking out guys of equal level it's not their superior X factor, it's their superior skill. Learn to accept it.
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I'd like to see skill added. Specifically, I'd like to see IQ-based puzzles. If you can't solve it, you don't progress. This way people with good mental skills are rewarded. Kinda like those little lock-opening things in Mass Effect, only more hardcore.
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Far too many people seem to want to equate twitch based combat and the constant practice that it requires as skill.
But for others the skill involved in learning how to execute a complex fight, being aware of the situation and adjusting what they are doing accordingly. There is also the skill associated in knowing what to use when in order to maximize damage done, minimize damage taken and in PvE hold threat if the MMO has tanks.
The original poster admited to perfering twitch based activitiy. So for him a game without that would probably not be seen as requiring skill. My responce is that it does not require the skill that he enjoys. There is nothing wrong in that till a person converts the statement from "The game does not require the skill that I enjoy." to "The game requires no skill." The first statement is accurate and allows people to properly decide if they are like the person that made the statement and would not find it fun. The second statement has the same bias but tries to force all games into being what they like to play and ignore that there are other game preferences and reasons to play.
The problem is with all this turn based style play with global cool downs and auto attack and lock on targeting things become fairly .... static. Many of them include classes and levels which which add to this. Regardless of environment everything is fairly predictable.
With the style of game play most MMO's share it's more rock paper scissors with nice graphics and animations. AI doesn't help either, you learn the strategy to beat an encounter, mob, boss, or w/e and thats how you beat it each time. There's little room for on the fly creative thinking.
It goes beyond the limited combat systems that games use. Sure I can admit I prefer more twitch based game play because it does require more skill. I'm not just talking about aiming either. You have to learn to utilize cover, coordinate with team mates, try not to kill your team mates with friendly fire lol, be wary of the environment and use it to your advantage.
Twitch play not only requires hand eye coordination that standard MMORPG's don't but it also requires on the fly thinking, tactics and strategy. It's a system that rewards not just those with better aim, but those with more cunning. I mean you take just about any MMO with PvP and it's 3 vs. 6 in melee combat. Those 3 could be more skilled players, but they will more likely lose because of the lack of skill and strategic options in a more traditional system.
Use the same scenario in a more twitch based environment. Those 3 can find a corridor or some other tight place to remove the numbers advantage the other side has.
I'm sorry having played both for years and doing very well against most in PvP I just haven't found much skill to be needed in your traditional MMO setup. I mean after UO every MMO I've played (With the exception of DFO and one or two others) I did so while watching TV, Hulu or movies.... sometimes even while playing another game and still managed to do very well.
Simply put ....
Players > AI
A more twitch or action based system > Slow play, turnbased and cooldown watching type of gameplay that has become standard.
This goes for tactics, strategy and skill.
This was probably the best "first" post I have ever read. I also agree with it. I believe mmorpgs require skill to play, and I have proof. My fiance can not, for the life of her, play a mmorpg...but she can kick your ass in Socom or CoD. She lacks the skill to play one type of game, but has tons of skill to play the other type.
Every game ever invented requires some form of skill.
To the OP...I personally think that the "skill" needed to play and be successful at a game is the skill of understanding and processing knowledge. I think "twitch" is highly over-rated as a "skill." I'm pretty sure it's much more of a reflex....
The reason I'm good at FPS games isn't because I "twitch" well, it's because I know the map and I have a good understanding of people. I know what they're going to do and I know how they will react to certain situations. It's because I've studied, understood and processed the information that I have a high k/d ratio, w/l ratio and hit percentage. In mmorpgs it's the reason my party does not wipe and the reason my guild wins pvp battles. It's the reason I win races in driving games and why I survive survival games....
I will admit though, when it comes to fighter games, I'm average...it's all the damn combo buttons and directional pad inputs lol I'll get a handful of more wins than losses on a good day...
Uh, there's a huge difference between twitch action (UT) and tactical shooters (CS)....
It seems that people are starting to bend what twitch mechanics actually means...which is pretty much Spray and Pray mechanics if you ask me...
To answer the OP: Nope. MMORPGs shouldn't be about twitchy skill, they should be about the world. Sadly nearly every MMO fails at this anymore. Twitch gamers have plenty of other shallow gaming experiences to enjoy, no need to ruin MMORPGs even more by catering to that.
I agree, the MMOFPS will be making a huge break in the gaming world soon enough, no need to ruin rpgs with twitch gaming mechanics.
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Exactly. I doubt that [insert big game design corporation name here] will stop all production of their games because of a little rant.
By skill, I think he means pressing [insert key name here] or clicking on your mouse, or whatever. Just my two cents.
But I still agree anyway, give us a game where everything matters, including how fit your pudgy fingers are.
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MMORPG's are already in a sad state, fewer and fewer are interested in the micromanagement play style. It has it's place but not in every single MMO lol.
If you watched two videos side by side, one of someone playing an FPS and one of someone playing an MMO, NOT the in game footage, but the actual person. you would see only two differences. they guy on Modern Warfare is twiddling his fingers on a gamepad, but wait, there's more, the MMO guy is doing exactly the same thing but with a keyboard and mouse.
yep, that's right they are BOTH twiddling their fingers, the only difference is what they are using as an input device. I can assure you that on the very first day that the FPS guy played Modern Warfare, he died, and died, and died, and died again, and again, and again. now, half a year later he has died millions of times. that's right the only reason he can pwn so many newbs so quickly is because when he was a newb, he got p^%##$ off so many times that learned how not to die. he learned how to use the game mechanics to his advantage so that he wouldn't die, and because he died so many many times, he couldn't help but memorize the location of EVERY enemy, EVERY drop EVERY single item and location of interest, you'll notice that he knows exactly where to go and what do, and that's only because of how many times he died doing the same thing over and over again and again.
the same thing is true for MMO's, only that instead of dying, the MMO guy just got faster, and even though he didn't die as much as the FPS guy, he was still able to memorize everything there is in his MMO because of how many toons he started and how many times he played through the same content, over and over again and again.
that's the only real difference between the games, FPS players get better by dying, in fact there isn't anyone better at dying than they are, because that is all they do, basically they just die a bunch and the learn how NOT to die.
MMO players don't really die, they learn by doing the same thing over and over as parts of different quests.
and in response to all the thoughtless people out there who will say something like "but the environment in FPS's is ever changing, everything is different each time"
quite simply, no, it isn't, if you play in a map, the next time you play in that same map, it will still be the same, what I mean by this is that the epic sniper spot in the top of that building is still going to be there and is still going to be an epic sniper spot every...single...time...you play...on that...map, same for everything else, no matter how you slash it, if there is a route behind a building good for ambushing the enemy, it will always be a good place to ambush the enemy, and whoever knows about that place will have the upper hand, and it isn't the most skilled player either
...it's the most knowledgeable one
All of that goes for MMO's as well, whoever knows the most, has the upper hand, and no matter hoe you slice it, neither genre requires more skill than the other, in fact, neither no game truly requires skill.
if you want skill that bad, then GET A SKILL, go to a shooting range and learn how to fire a gun or a bow and arrow quickly and accurately, that takes SKILL. Go play basketball that takes SKILL. go golfing or fishing or go and play some tennis, all of those activities all require SKILL, so does fencing and other sword type combat activities. If you are sitting on your butt, twiddling your fingers, while playing a game, you are using your knowledge to respond to something that happened in a screen buy pushing buttons and not any kind of skill as skills are something that can only be gained IN...REAL...LIFE. Not even games that utilize the wii or xbox kinect or playstation move to create an almost real environment can prepare you for the REAL THING. that's all I have to say on the matter.
you're completely missing the point....
If I were to translate skill based mmorpgs into something that everyone understands, it would probably be called:
Tactical Action Fighter (TAF) MMORPG
As a martial artist, the problem with trying to create one is that there are just so many different types of actions that go into creating this particular type of game play that it's nearly impossible to truly create...in fact, the number of animations that would have to be created for each particular type of physical maneuver (not to mention the varying styles and stances) would range in the 10s of thousands if not more....It would take close to a decade just to get the animations down unless you have an ARMY of battle ready animators and martial art choreographers at your disposal...
So there's one of two ways we can go about physically digitizing ourselves:
1. We motion capture every single type of physical combat maneuver with every type of weapon (both realistic and fantasy) and create a standardized package from which all developers can access royalty free. (I believe there's a company out there that's already trying to do this???)
2. We bring the motion capture equipment into the home and physically do it ourselves like in Wii fit or like with that new thing that's coming to the xbox.
The first would be more cinematic but would take a lot of time to produce and would inevitably take up an insane amount of space while the other would require extra equipment and would probably be a turn off to people who are not physically fit.
Just remember folks, Skill = MORE physical control and LESS dice rolling...that is the argument here.
All in all, Skill-Based S&S (TAFMMORPG) is a hell of a lot more than just mimicking the FPS style of combat. In fact, it's probably the greatest challenge in game development history.
I am more interested in an MMO that rewards strategic use of whats around them, planning, and knowledge. More than just knowing the best order of skills to max DPS, or something along those lines. I would settle for just auto attack, my fingers don't like this smashing of keys over and over again.
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Very nice, you've just ended the argument of "wtf is skill?".
Looks like there doing a fine job of ruining rpgs all by themselves.
Honestly. If the combat system is not a big enough selling point for you then you're probably not going to enjoy the game. That's the blunt truth here. What makes these games different than other MMOs isn't the game itself, but rather the way in which the game is played.
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Actually, for your first way, there is already a Discovery documentary (i think is from Discovery) where they tested every martial art: their skills, their movements, their strengths, speeds, grabs, using all weapons (and the difference in damage and in using the weapon, the pros and cons). EVERYTHING was already done once, including Shaolin-kung-fu and ninjutso (yes, ninjutso really exists and ITS RARE, and kids, its not like naruto ok lol jk ^^).
They did this to prove what martial art is the stronger, but they just got the conclusion that every martial art or weapon is stronger in their own characteristics and weaker in others, making possible for a boxer to win against a shaolin if he could pull only 1 KO punch in the face.
If a company could really get this info and test a little on their own, it really could be a great way of getting profit for the company and the game industry would really get a great advantage from it. INCLUDING MMORPGs. I mean, ppl talk about FPS style and RPG style.
First of all, the new mmorpgs coming dont have FPS style, since its not a First person and is not a shooter (well, most of them are fantasy-type, the only thing simillar to a shooter might be archers and mages lol).
Second, this new kind of Action-MMORPG (or non-targetting MMORPG as some ppl call it) is in the early ages, theres so many things to test, to try, and to create with it, why get so "against" it if most ppl dont have even tried it and dont know what the future brings us. If mmorpg players think that these kind of games are going to ruin mmorpgs, well go play your kind of mmorpgs (there are hundreds out there and there will be more).
Now, returning to the example of the different martial arts. If mmorpgs get the idea of using skills like reflexes, fast decisions, etc. into account, it might be a great contribution. Lets be realistic: mmorpgs right now do give too much credit to gear and level stats. Of course, there's skill in playing these games, using the right "skills" (powers) at the right time, using different classes for different purposes, using taunt or freeze when needed. These are all skills. But no matter what these kind of skills are, gear and level stats are always the major difference in mmorpgs. No matter what you have learned and how good your skills got since 2 months ago, if you find a guy with a better gear and/or a higher lvl, you will almost certainly lose.
This is something that players and some devs wanna change. Using Non-targetting system is the best way there is, because is the only way where statistics of level and gear arent necessary to be a good player. Of course, some statistics must still be implementd but IMHO putting +1str/+2agi is not the right way. We want to play and have fun.
One last hing that i tried to say in other posts. Has everyone tried to play Star Wars Jedi Academy online against other players without using cheats or "special weapons"?? i have, and i might say, i had the best online fights in my life there, and there were no snipers, no aimbots, no gear or stats. Only the ability to run, dodge, jump, clash of jedi sabers, struggle, run on the wall and using "skills" (Powers) like force-push, etc. The perfect match between rpg and non-targetting system, but in a PVP way. If MMORPGs could this, than i have to say, everyone will be happy i swear. SW:TOR thats coming is not the thing i wanted btw, its wierd -.-" lol
Just my thoughts. And BTW, i like your TAF MMORPG definition illincrux!
Sure, both types of gamers are twiddling their fingers, but that has nothing to do with the amount of skill that the two players are exhibiting at a particular game, or more importantly for this thread, how the mechanics of gameplay reward skillful play.
Think of single player games for a moment, some are complicated and difficult to play and some are much easier. It would be difficult to tell which of the two a gamer is playing just by watching the player.
One way to introduce 'skill' is to add 'twitch gaming' aspects to gameplay. Another is simply to add large amounts of complexity to the mechanics of the game. How often does an opponents' actions require a change in tactics? If the answer is A LOT changes between fights, chances are you are playing a complicated game.
APB has been on the market for more than 2 weeks.
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@OP .
1st: Saying there is no skill is a bit exagerated . Eg: i once killed two hordies in WoW who both were a lvl higher than me and one of them had the same class as me. If there was no such thing as skills (or lack thereof , as i suck at pvp in wow) i wouldnt have been able to kill two guys a lvl higher than me attacking me together. And it wasn't a twink either. (it was 1st char) .
But i must agree skills sometimes lack and often in PvE , simply because the encounters are static . A form of skill is being able to adapt to the situation and in PvE its always the same . Boss X won't suddenly use an ability he never used because he felt like it . And even in PvE there is a bit of skill required. (a little bit but still something) . I can tell that because i have been in raids which failed mind boggling hard while we outgeared the raid by far .
2nd: End Of Nations. I think that if any MMO might give an opportunity to make skills important it must be that one for the simple reason it's going to be an MMORTS and from personal experience the most skill intensive games are often RTS's .
So personally i think expecting an MMORPG to be skill intensive is a dream , the genre just doesn't allow that much skill to be involved.
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