True, I understand the small and slight changes which are pretty good, but in no way should those be refferred to as an innovation or revolutionary. In the end all MMOs are static playgrounds of getting to the max level, I insist roleplaying and player driven story to be put as a focus, as well as equal strenght among players (Lvl 80s are basically indestructable gods to a lvl 1). I really hope to get to a position to be able to change this as soon as possible.
Wisesquirrel, I wish you success. But the hurddle is tremendous. Here's a link to a blog by someone who has some excellent information on what you face. On the first page you'll see a post titled "EPI, Venture Capital and Ages of Athiria", where he explains his reasons for giving up after years of pursuing this dream. On the second page you'll find a series of 4 short posts on how he went about trying to get venture capital, titled "Lets Dispel the Myth that Indie Game Development is Cheap (Parts 1-4)" These are excellent and informative articles and very much worth the read. I'm not trying to dissuade you. Just thought you'd like to get this information.
I already know the probabilities and impossibilities, so this information can only persuade me.
I appreciate the information, I will definitely give it a read ;p.
Unless you're a company like Jaguar.. Then you make a very high quality product and sell it to the very small minority and make money and be happy
Jaguar didn't just spring up overnight and it doesn't actually sell to a small minority either. It took years of work, designing numerous products which were lucky enough to be successful in order to get were it is today.
Take the E type, now, if I recall correctly, it was actually one of the first "affordable" sports cars in its day. Meaning that they weren't actually aiming at a "small minority", they were in fact aiming at a larger market. After numerous take overs, mergers and a lot of designs, they have survived to this day. Whilst others were not so lucky.
So if anything, Jaguar is another example of a company whose products evolve to suit the markets of the day by aiming them at a large enough customerbase in order to be profitable and ensure the long term success of the company. Which is exactly what ALL companies try to do. Some like the Jaguar cars, some don't. But Jaguar couldn't care less, so long as their products are classed as "successful" enough.
I've been working on a game where there isn't that huge power gap.. In fact a few level 1 can take down a level 80, if I got my way.. As the quest thing you related to earlier.. I called it a bit of sandboxing with a twist.. because I wanted to get away from static quest and mobs as well.. Actually, the more I thought about it.. the more I considered my format to be like a pinball machine.. When you trigger a quest or object, the ball is in motion and you are never sure what path it takes.. Does that make sense to you.. and is that something you were thinking as well?
FC-FamineFuncom Community ManagerMemberUncommonPosts: 278
Originally posted by Tarka
Originally posted by FC-Famine
Originally posted by colutr
MMOs are lame because its no longer about making a good game, its about using a formula to make money off of people who become addicted to these types of games.
Wouldn't that be a good game though? I mean that logic doesn't work. If a game is making money and has good numbers then some consumers like the game. It may not be your cup of tea, but no game will ever appeal to the entire market over X amount of time?
Games in our genre do have to make money to sustain the fun.
This is always an interesting debate hehe.
This is what some people can't wrap their heads around. Some seem to think that MMO companies are just in business for the fun of it and everything is free. Everything costs money, including heating, lighting, salaries, licencing and all the other "outgoings" for a normal company.
But money doesn't just grow on trees, you need a product that sells. And whilst it may not appeal to each and every individual, the product still needs to be attractive to a sizeable majority. So whilst an individual may think that an MMO "is lame", that's irrelevant if a large enough customerbase disagrees.
This!
It can be very irrelevant if the game has consumers buying into the product to a point that keeps it sustainable by the developer and or publisher. This is a good point to come to in conclusion because it can be very irrelevant to the larger majority who is enjoying the product and may not be as vocal about it.
On the other topic of innovation. Many do have to consider that innovation = difference. Something completely new is not always going to be appealing to you as a player simply because it's innovative. I wont mention any names, but I've seen some pretty innovative extremes happen in the course of 5 years. Nothing too major, but they were innovative ways to take new system designs, game play designs and etc. Some of those innovative changes have been spit back in the developers face simply because the majority didn't enjoy something completely alien to them. Instead, they suggested the systems or game design be changed to fit something like <insert popular MMO title here> to solve the problem.
Thus, it's not easy by far to even take small innovative steps let alone large ones that will be accepted by the majority.
Glen ''Famine'' Swan Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom
Unless you're a company like Jaguar.. Then you make a very high quality product and sell it to the very small minority and make money and be happy
Jaguar didn't just spring up overnight and it doesn't actually sell to a small minority either. It took years of work, designing numerous products which were lucky enough to be successful in order to get were it is today.
Take the E type, now, if I recall correctly, it was actually one of the first "affordable" sports cars in its day. Meaning that they weren't actually aiming at a "small minority", they were in fact aiming at a larger market. After numerous take overs, mergers and a lot of designs, they have survived to this day. Whilst others were not so lucky.
So if anything, Jaguar is another example of a company whose products evolve to suit the markets of the day by aiming them at a large enough customerbase in order to be profitable and ensure the long term success of the company. Which is exactly what ALL companies try to do. Some like the Jaguar cars, some don't. But Jaguar couldn't care less, so long as their products are classed as "successful" enough.
Really? That isnt' what Im reading but ty for your opinion
I've been working on a game where there isn't that huge power gap.. In fact a few level 1 can take down a level 80, if I got my way.. As the quest thing you related to earlier.. I called it a bit of sandboxing with a twist.. because I wanted to get away from static quest and mobs as well.. Actually, the more I thought about it.. the more I considered my format to be like a pinball machine.. When you trigger a quest or object, the ball is in motion and you are never sure what path it takes.. Does that make sense to you.. and is that something you were thinking as well?
Thank you, appreciated.
A pinball amchine, interesting way to put it. I would assume you sart a quest / adventure / event, but do not know how the players will respond to this, will they be able to overcome the problem, will they defeat it too easily, will they take it to a completely new direction?
Illusions are usually a very good tactic to control anarchy from overtaking the system ( Your players taking advantage and taking the game away from the Devs), but there are many systems that none have considered.
A game master or Dev as dynamic as he wants the event to take place, it should always be planned or pre-planned if possible with the illusion factor. Give the players a fun story or problem to solve in a few ways as well as not effective in other ways (Hence the difficulty factor for the players to find out how to overcome it).
In summary, I think events should be handled with a few different outcomes, but make sure that you know all possible outcomes (And limit it to only those if within your grasp) and if they are beneficial (Removing all of those that are unfavorable to gameplay and experience).
I learned those basic game master rules when I tried to make a mock adventure game where the players REALLY put me in difficult situations, we should try to avoid those. In a game the Devs are not human, players expect us to be gods which commit no mistakes.
If I misunderstood, perhaps giving an example might help.
I feel one of the issues is the current MMO player. Years ago the majority of MMO players were adults who could afford/were willing to spend $15 a month on an online game. Since the target audience was more mature, the game mechanics were more mature/complicated. Now both my kids (under 16) have accounts and from my understanding the 14 to 24 crowd is the biggest player base for MMO's. It makes sense that developers are designing games for this crowd, thou it sucks for us old timers to see us getting less from MMO's each year. Remember when MMO's had player housing, multiple play areas, customized clothing/food and crafting was an actual profession? We dont see much of that anymore.
New games like CO and STO go live with less than half the content older games had at launch.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
I feel one of the issues is the current MMO player. Years ago the majority of MMO players were adults who could afford/were willing to spend $15 a month on an online game. Since the target audience was more mature, the game mechanics were more mature/complicated. Now both my kids (under 16) have accounts and from my understanding the 14 to 24 crowd is the biggest player base for MMO's. It makes sense that developers are designing games for this crowd, thou it sucks for us old timers to see us getting less from MMO's each year. Remember when MMO's had player housing, multiple play areas, customized clothing/food and crafting was an actual profession? We dont see much of that anymore.
New games like CO and STO go live with less than half the content older games had at launch.
Not to mention there are some teenagers with sopihsticated tastes like thyself.
The audience is being tricked to think these washed down games are fun and are not introduced to the old school system as you may call it (I had to find out for myself how games orginally worked from paper and pen games, I was pretty impressed when I first found out about them).
FC-FamineFuncom Community ManagerMemberUncommonPosts: 278
You also have the misconception that all MMO developers share the same technology too.
Glen ''Famine'' Swan Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom
EQ1 plays NOTHING like WoW, in my opinion, WoW is more like the a super casual easy mode of EQ1.. The grouping is not similar, the raiding is NOT even close to resembling EQ1, the classes on WoW are all homogenized.
The only thing I can compare wow and eq1 together is to say that WoW is the E-sport dumbed down version of EQ1.
I shortened this post down to certain points & I agree. I find it funny that the first MMOs I ever played back in 1997-1999 (Ultima Online - PVP & EQ1 - PVE) were far more enjoyable than any games i've played since them. It seems to me that the fantasy based MMOs these days all are all made to resemble World of Warcraft. They're dumbed down, easy to play, button mashing games that require little to no thought in order to advance. Does this make a game lame though? That is a matter of opinion. The fact is WoW has had the largest number of subscribers in history. So the game obviously isn't lame to everyone. It's just not my type of game. MMO developers focus on younger players as their target demographic because there is a larger audiance & that means more money to be made. I think it would be great if a game company could break away from this current trend and create an MMO with adults in mind.
EQ1 plays NOTHING like WoW, in my opinion, WoW is more like the a super casual easy mode of EQ1.. The grouping is not similar, the raiding is NOT even close to resembling EQ1, the classes on WoW are all homogenized.
The only thing I can compare wow and eq1 together is to say that WoW is the E-sport dumbed down version of EQ1.
I shortened this post down to certain points & I agree. I find it funny that the first MMOs I ever played back in 1997-1999 (Ultima Online - PVP & EQ1 - PVE) were far more enjoyable than any games i've played since them. It seems to me that the fantasy based MMOs these days all are all made to resemble World of Warcraft. They're dumbed down, easy to play, button mashing games that require little to no thought in order to advance. Does this make a game lame though? That is a matter of opinion. The fact is WoW has had the largest number of subscribers in history. So the game obviously isn't lame to everyone. It's just not my type of game. MMO developers focus on younger players as their target demographic because there is a larger audiance & that means more money to be made. I think it would be great if a game company could break away from this current trend and create an MMO with adults in mind.
You do realize that a major complaint against WoW is that it focused too much on the casual adult gamers and is abandomning the younger more hardcore gamers?
Why oh why does it have to be like this, WoW is heaven for Internet Trollers and jerks yet it's hell for me, Aion is turned down by people because of it's "Eastern Style" that's the same area where the free to plays come from, Warhammer is a game on life support, Everquest 2 can't run the graphics correctly even if you do have a high powered graphics card and Codemasters got rid of my Lord of the Rings online account, I don't want to buy the game again. =p
Also played DDO and it sucks everything isn't more open worlded and Runes of Magic is a cheap knock off game.
Shame there's no other good games, there's far too many cheap free mmo's that look and play bad, and they want more money then pay to plays. =p
Maybe MMOs were always this lame, just now, they're lame in different ways than they used to be. My diagnosis is the burned out vet, correct me if I'm wrong.
I feel one of the issues is the current MMO player. Years ago the majority of MMO players were adults who could afford/were willing to spend $15 a month on an online game. Since the target audience was more mature, the game mechanics were more mature/complicated. Now both my kids (under 16) have accounts and from my understanding the 14 to 24 crowd is the biggest player base for MMO's. It makes sense that developers are designing games for this crowd, thou it sucks for us old timers to see us getting less from MMO's each year. Remember when MMO's had player housing, multiple play areas, customized clothing/food and crafting was an actual profession? We dont see much of that anymore.
New games like CO and STO go live with less than half the content older games had at launch.
This
Companies should share part of the blame too though. Think of all the additional coding and programming time that would have to go into that. You'd have to hire people just to create in game housing and content for those homes, others to create the custom clothing/food and crafting. My biggest complaint is the shallow back stories. Almost seems like no one is willing to hire a couple of professional writers to create them anymore. Just half *** it no one is going to read it anyways. Then again hiring all these extra people involves a lot more cost. Why spend it when you can make a game without it and people will still pay you $15 a month to play or more if it is a cash shop game?
I feel one of the issues is the current MMO player. Years ago the majority of MMO players were adults who could afford/were willing to spend $15 a month on an online game. Since the target audience was more mature, the game mechanics were more mature/complicated. Now both my kids (under 16) have accounts and from my understanding the 14 to 24 crowd is the biggest player base for MMO's. It makes sense that developers are designing games for this crowd, thou it sucks for us old timers to see us getting less from MMO's each year. Remember when MMO's had player housing, multiple play areas, customized clothing/food and crafting was an actual profession? We dont see much of that anymore.
New games like CO and STO go live with less than half the content older games had at launch.
This
Companies should share part of the blame too though. Think of all the additional coding and programming time that would have to go into that. You'd have to hire people just to create in game housing and content for those homes, others to create the custom clothing/food and crafting. My biggest complaint is the shallow back stories. Almost seems like no one is willing to hire a couple of professional writers to create them anymore. Just half *** it no one is going to read it anyways. Then again hiring all these extra people involves a lot more cost. Why spend it when you can make a game without it and people will still pay you $15 a month to play or more if it is a cash shop game?
Why oh why does it have to be like this, WoW is heaven for Internet Trollers and jerks yet it's hell for me, Aion is turned down by people because of it's "Eastern Style" that's the same area where the free to plays come from, Warhammer is a game on life support, Everquest 2 can't run the graphics correctly even if you do have a high powered graphics card and Codemasters got rid of my Lord of the Rings online account, I don't want to buy the game again. =p
Also played DDO and it sucks everything isn't more open worlded and Runes of Magic is a cheap knock off game.
Shame there's no other good games, there's far too many cheap free mmo's that look and play bad, and they want more money then pay to plays. =p
MMOs have become lame because , The name has been taken in vein and used for other purposes.
The player bases average inteligence level has dropped as the massive numbers of average people have poured in and demand whack-a-mole.
People do not wich to play games wuith challenge/ death penalties / or time syncs , people demand end game some of the older MMOs did not have end game... (End game is for Arena game specialists not MMOs)
The reason the MMOs have become Lame is becaue they are not MMOs as in the original definition:
Which used to have:
Gameplay ( What gameplay can you count from 1 to 10 Hurahj you have won)
Real Craft and Trade
Travel to trade (Replaced now with mail systems)
Economy and effort (Replaced with easy mode AHs)
Community ( Replaced by guilds who destroy this and the game focus is niot the world but self interest)
Longevity ( End game in weeks, where is the content and depth ?)
Fun (Its a rat race to beat the game)
And there we have it..... What made the original MMOs great has been replaced with ease.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Why oh why does it have to be like this, WoW is heaven for Internet Trollers and jerks yet it's hell for me, Aion is turned down by people because of it's "Eastern Style" that's the same area where the free to plays come from, Warhammer is a game on life support, Everquest 2 can't run the graphics correctly even if you do have a high powered graphics card and Codemasters got rid of my Lord of the Rings online account, I don't want to buy the game again. =p
Also played DDO and it sucks everything isn't more open worlded and Runes of Magic is a cheap knock off game.
Shame there's no other good games, there's far too many cheap free mmo's that look and play bad, and they want more money then pay to plays. =p
MMOs have become lame because , The name has been taken in vein and used for other purposes.
The player bases average inteligence level has dropped as the massive numbers of average people have poured in and demand whack-a-mole.
People do not wich to play games wuith challenge/ death penalties / or time syncs , people demand end game some of the older MMOs did not have end game... (End game is for Arena game specialists not MMOs)
The reason the MMOs have become Lame is becaue they are not MMOs as in the original definition:
Which used to have:
Gameplay ( What gameplay can you count from 1 to 10 Hurahj you have won)
Real Craft and Trade
Travel to trade (Replaced now with mail systems)
Economy and effort (Replaced with easy mode AHs)
Community ( Replaced by guilds who destroy this and the game focus is niot the world but self interest)
Longevity ( End game in weeks, where is the content and depth ?)
Fun (Its a rat race to beat the game)
And there we have it..... What made the original MMOs great has been replaced with ease.
Seems like WoW started the problem and now we are in a mess so I see from everyone's comments, not happy about it. So I guess every MMO has fallen flat and are not good, yet people still play them. I can't seem to find any recommendations of what game to try out, I read somewhere that Sandbox based MMOs are better, is there a full list of these anywhere?
Whilst the launch of WoW certainly opened the flood gates, it also raised the bar in terms of the overall level of quality that customers began to expect. Unfortunately, that meant that more pressure was put on MMO's to attain that level of quality. Is it WoW's fault that they fail at this? Nope.
In my opinion, MMO companies focus so hard on their own latest "gimmick" and "innovative" feature in order to attract customers, that they forget to actually get the very foundation right. A foundation that is based on a collection of very basic elements that many players expect in an MMO. Hence MMOs launch with "gimmicks" and "features", but all that hard work put into them is overshadowed by a VERY noticable lack of focus on the very basic elements that customers expect, including:
Sufficient longevity in gameplay: Sorry STO, but 80 hours worth just aint enough to encourage subs.
Storylines for world story arcs and quest systems: No game story arc can be viewed as a lack of purpose and direction and context for the game. Even the sci-fi MMO's are realising this.
Catering for multiple playstyles: Yes, its harder to build a game for multiple playstyles, but WoW set the standard. However, if done right, catering for multiple playstyles gives people options. More options = potentially more players. But, its no use SAYING that you're catering for multiple playstyles, if you don't have the time or resources to do it. That's how you get a bad reputation.
Enough content to cover all areas of progression: Having a well polished starting area is nice. But if there's little else, people will leave just as quickly as they arrived. Having an overall lack of content won't fool people for long.
A gameworld that is larger than just a collection of progression zones: Specific areas that act as "hubs" for activities should not constitute the entirety of a gameworld.
Engaging and worthwhile crafting / harvesting / economy synergy: This helps to enrich the gameworld, just like storylines, quests and each of the other playstyles. To forsake it is like ignoring the possibility that PVP can enrich the game as a whole.
Some people on these forums like to point fingers at the recent MMO's as evidence that copying WoW is a recipe for disaster. Actually, in my opinion, I think that these games didn't copy it ENOUGH. As much as I hate the term, they aren't even in the same league as WoW to justify calling them "clones".
What I mean is that in terms of the overall level of quality, many of them only paid "lip service" to the basic concepts found in WoW and thus suffered the consequences for not actually paying attention to the one lesson that WoW was trying to teach the rest of the MMO industry: POLISH and REFINEMENT. Take the tried and tested concepts and refine them.
How can the other MMOs hope to compete with WoW when they can't even match its level of quality, let alone surpass it. And I'm not even talking about the level of quality it has now.
So, why can't the more recent MMO's even attain the WoW level of overall quality? This probably is because they have so much to do and not enough time to do it. If WoWs level of quality puts such a high demand on resources and time, why bother focusing on "gimmicks", "innovations" and "features" if that means forsaking the very elements and concepts that players have come to expect from a particular product?
Its no use a car having the body of a Ferrari, but has no engine. Though it may look good, it fails at the very basic task that it was created to do. In the end, its just eye candy. Nothing more.
There are plenty of games out there that aren't "Lame" you just have to find the ones you enjoy. Just because the game doesn't have as many people as WoW doesn't mean that it is dead or not worth playing. There are still multiple games out there that you probably haven't tried, or maybe you just aren't really into MMO's anymore, which is understandable. Go try out some other genres and then come back later when some other game sparks your attention.
Well I did do that some time ago but I no longer play on Xbox 360, there really hasn't been anything great this year. I played on the PC versions of Left 4 Dead 1 & 2, to my honest opinion, playing either of these online with other players is a disgrace, it's just endless kicking and too many French frogs playing (we Brits sure hate our snotty French neighbours who have an evil taste towards poor little frogs they cut the legs off). Personally I hate lobby based online games.
Never played Crysis but since it's another "realistic" FPS game I won't bother with that, can't beat the old Doom I say. I wonder what PC games are popular nowhere days. =o
As for MMO, well I want to get into something where people socialise and work together, not something that's 90% infested with Forum Trolls and e-sporters. On a fine note, I hate PvP driven MMO's.
Gekkeiju Online (I hear its friendly, not sure though, drawback are it's old, few people, and donation system gives players extra "stats". Not sure if it has pvp or not though.)
Other than that, no. I don't like MMORPG's anymore. Once MMORPGs go P2P with added expansions (with no cash shop), then I could care less about the quality of the game. I won't have fun knowing I'm not getting my money's worth if they add a cash shop. (WoW, EQ II have cash shops and they are P2P, and it's not just cosmetics.)
People have become so obsessed with subs numbers and profit perhaps? They forget that these are supposed to be video games and not the stock market, corportatism has taken over the industry like every other facet of life finding new ways to drain people's wallets like the teleco industry with broadband data caps not because of the very small minority of heavy data users but their bottom line profits and when profits are down they come up with more incomptent ideas to piss off more consumers and charge you more for the same serivce but with the same mediocore results and service.
People have become so obsessed with subs numbers and profit perhaps? They forget that these are supposed to be video games and not the stock market, corportatism has taken over the industry like every other facet of life finding new ways to drain people's wallets like the teleco industry with broadband data caps not because of the very small minority of heavy data users but their bottom line profits and when profits are down they come up with more incomptent ideas to piss off more consumers and charge you more for the same serivce but with the same mediocore results and service.
In a Eutopian Star Trek type world, everything would be free. But its not. Ask yourself, WHY are companies focused on money? Do YOU work for free? In all probability, the answer is no. So why should developers? They have to put food on the table just like you or I. So in that respect why should a video games developer be considered any different to someone who buys and sells shares for a living? The answer is: All of us need money to put food on the table and clothes on our backs.
To think that MMO companies JUST exist for the passion of making games would be very naive indeed. They exist to make money from producing particular products. It's that simple. It's the same reason why ANY non-charity company exists. These aren't just a couple of snotty nosed teens living in a basement somewhere for free. They are fully fledged businesses with have outgoings to pay for.
The point is that it doesn't matter whether you're talking about video games, boxes of corn or shares in oil companies. Money makes the world go around. You can hate it all you like, but that's the fact of the matter. If you don't like the way the world works, fine, go and find a desert island somewhere and live off coconuts for the rest of your life whilst being bored out of your mind because everything costs money.
As for charging the same for less / charging more for the same, we have to remember that costs have risen in the last decade. We are in a global recession. The worlds economies are in turmoil because of how everyone has been throwing their money around in the past. So now, the purse strings have been tightened. Yes, it sucks and means that we get screwed a bit more.
As we're in a recession, companies in ALL industries have to start being a little more frugal with how they spend their money. That includes looking harder at ways to either justify an increase in expenditure (and hope that the product recoups that increase in reasonable time), or improve efficiencies both in how their products function, and in how they produce them (staff lay offs, cuts in bonuses and wage rises, reductions in budgets, etc, etc). In actual fact, its times like this, when money is tight, that the most advances in technology and efficiency are made. The same happened approximately 70 years ago. However, just because we're in a recession, shouldn't give companies justification for producing shoddy goods. You can try to "cut corners" to reduce costs, but cut too many and your product loses a lot of quality.
Why oh why does it have to be like this, WoW is heaven for Internet Trollers and jerks yet it's hell for me, Aion is turned down by people because of it's "Eastern Style" that's the same area where the free to plays come from, Warhammer is a game on life support, Everquest 2 can't run the graphics correctly even if you do have a high powered graphics card and Codemasters got rid of my Lord of the Rings online account, I don't want to buy the game again. =p
Also played DDO and it sucks everything isn't more open worlded and Runes of Magic is a cheap knock off game.
Shame there's no other good games, there's far too many cheap free mmo's that look and play bad, and they want more money then pay to plays. =p
maybe you're just to picky. there is no perfect MMORPG. RoM had a lot of things i didn't like but it kept me playing for a few months. ya, they aren't as good as they used to be, but i wouldn't say they're all lame. wait for GW2, TOR, Rift, and Tera. they come out next year and are looking pretty good. or just take a break from MMORPG's for a while.
People have become so obsessed with subs numbers and profit perhaps? They forget that these are supposed to be video games and not the stock market, corportatism has taken over the industry like every other facet of life finding new ways to drain people's wallets like the teleco industry with broadband data caps not because of the very small minority of heavy data users but their bottom line profits and when profits are down they come up with more incomptent ideas to piss off more consumers and charge you more for the same serivce but with the same mediocore results and service.
In a Eutopian Star Trek type world, everything would be free. But its not. Ask yourself, WHY are companies focused on money? Do YOU work for free? In all probability, the answer is no. So why should developers? They have to put food on the table just like you or I. So in that respect why should a video games developer be considered any different to someone who buys and sells shares for a living? The answer is: All of us need money to put food on the table and clothes on our backs.
To think that MMO companies JUST exist for the passion of making games would be very naive indeed. They exist to make money from producing particular products. It's that simple. It's the same reason why ANY non-charity company exists. These aren't just a couple of snotty nosed teens living in a basement somewhere for free. They are fully fledged businesses with have outgoings to pay for.
The point is that it doesn't matter whether you're talking about video games, boxes of corn or shares in oil companies. Money makes the world go around. You can hate it all you like, but that's the fact of the matter. If you don't like the way the world works, fine, go and find a desert island somewhere and live off coconuts for the rest of your life whilst being bored out of your mind because everything costs money.
As for charging the same for less / charging more for the same, we have to remember that costs have risen in the last decade. We are in a global recession. The worlds economies are in turmoil because of how everyone has been throwing their money around in the past. So now, the purse strings have been tightened. Yes, it sucks and means that we get screwed a bit more.
As we're in a recession, companies in ALL industries have to start being a little more frugal with how they spend their money. That includes looking harder at ways to either justify an increase in expenditure (and hope that the product recoups that increase in reasonable time), or improve efficiencies both in how their products function, and in how they produce them (staff lay offs, cuts in bonuses and wage rises, reductions in budgets, etc, etc). In actual fact, its times like this, when money is tight, that the most advances in technology and efficiency are made. The same happened approximately 70 years ago. However, just because we're in a recession, shouldn't give companies justification for producing shoddy goods. You can try to "cut corners" to reduce costs, but cut too many and your product loses a lot of quality.
Yess all of us need to make money. This is not about folks being paid to program a game. This is about game companies in general producing the same old stuff over and over. I have not seen much inovation in the past 3 years, just lots of lets copy the other guys widget.
After a while companies that have been around a while start to dumb down the content. I will point at eq2, lotro, wow. Used to take a good while to level. Nowdays in eq2 a full month bam level 90, lotro I can grow a level 65 in under 2 weeks. Wow same thing. All of this made possible to placate the crying little babies going omg the game is to hard, and the companies willing to nerf down the content to keep the child who at the end of the week goes to another game anyway. A lot of these whiney little kids move on to other games and have no sence of loyatly to the company,
So yes getting paid to do your job great, turning out the same out trash not so good. All the game companies producing almost the same kind of product and calling it inovative is bad.
However it seams the masses will accept anything handed to them, and go ohh good i my shiney new pony, or i got my shiney new backpack, or gee were going free to play Im so happy I will not have to sub again.
What really bothers me is the companies make tons of cash, and based on the dev cycle I been seeing I dont see the cash being re-invested into the product, because it it was you would have tons of updates (points at lotro 9 months no content other than fluff festales).
People have become so obsessed with subs numbers and profit perhaps? They forget that these are supposed to be video games and not the stock market, corportatism has taken over the industry like every other facet of life finding new ways to drain people's wallets like the teleco industry with broadband data caps not because of the very small minority of heavy data users but their bottom line profits and when profits are down they come up with more incomptent ideas to piss off more consumers and charge you more for the same serivce but with the same mediocore results and service.
Sub numbers do matter in MMORPGs because the amount of fun is tied to population of servers. I am not going to play a MMO if there is no one around, no matter how good the gameplay is.
Don't forget that MMOs exist in the first place because hobbiests with a vision made them happen - businesses didn't create them, they just took them up a level of polish and sophistication, outcompeting the original visionary-and-community-created MUDs. In any creative industry, as the business becomes disconnected from the hobby that created it, you lose a critical spark
The state of the business right now is like that moment in playing an MMO when you realize you are doing things not because of fun or story but because it is the most efficient use of your time to maximize your harvesting.
Comments
Unless you're a company like Jaguar.. Then you make a very high quality product and sell it to the very small minority and make money and be happy
I appreciate the information, I will definitely give it a read ;p.
Jaguar didn't just spring up overnight and it doesn't actually sell to a small minority either. It took years of work, designing numerous products which were lucky enough to be successful in order to get were it is today.
Take the E type, now, if I recall correctly, it was actually one of the first "affordable" sports cars in its day. Meaning that they weren't actually aiming at a "small minority", they were in fact aiming at a larger market. After numerous take overs, mergers and a lot of designs, they have survived to this day. Whilst others were not so lucky.
So if anything, Jaguar is another example of a company whose products evolve to suit the markets of the day by aiming them at a large enough customerbase in order to be profitable and ensure the long term success of the company. Which is exactly what ALL companies try to do. Some like the Jaguar cars, some don't. But Jaguar couldn't care less, so long as their products are classed as "successful" enough.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Good luck squirel..
I've been working on a game where there isn't that huge power gap.. In fact a few level 1 can take down a level 80, if I got my way.. As the quest thing you related to earlier.. I called it a bit of sandboxing with a twist.. because I wanted to get away from static quest and mobs as well.. Actually, the more I thought about it.. the more I considered my format to be like a pinball machine.. When you trigger a quest or object, the ball is in motion and you are never sure what path it takes.. Does that make sense to you.. and is that something you were thinking as well?
This!
It can be very irrelevant if the game has consumers buying into the product to a point that keeps it sustainable by the developer and or publisher. This is a good point to come to in conclusion because it can be very irrelevant to the larger majority who is enjoying the product and may not be as vocal about it.
On the other topic of innovation. Many do have to consider that innovation = difference. Something completely new is not always going to be appealing to you as a player simply because it's innovative. I wont mention any names, but I've seen some pretty innovative extremes happen in the course of 5 years. Nothing too major, but they were innovative ways to take new system designs, game play designs and etc. Some of those innovative changes have been spit back in the developers face simply because the majority didn't enjoy something completely alien to them. Instead, they suggested the systems or game design be changed to fit something like <insert popular MMO title here> to solve the problem.
Thus, it's not easy by far to even take small innovative steps let alone large ones that will be accepted by the majority.
Glen ''Famine'' Swan
Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom
Really? That isnt' what Im reading
but ty for your opinion
Thank you, appreciated.
A pinball amchine, interesting way to put it. I would assume you sart a quest / adventure / event, but do not know how the players will respond to this, will they be able to overcome the problem, will they defeat it too easily, will they take it to a completely new direction?
Illusions are usually a very good tactic to control anarchy from overtaking the system ( Your players taking advantage and taking the game away from the Devs), but there are many systems that none have considered.
A game master or Dev as dynamic as he wants the event to take place, it should always be planned or pre-planned if possible with the illusion factor. Give the players a fun story or problem to solve in a few ways as well as not effective in other ways (Hence the difficulty factor for the players to find out how to overcome it).
In summary, I think events should be handled with a few different outcomes, but make sure that you know all possible outcomes (And limit it to only those if within your grasp) and if they are beneficial (Removing all of those that are unfavorable to gameplay and experience).
I learned those basic game master rules when I tried to make a mock adventure game where the players REALLY put me in difficult situations, we should try to avoid those. In a game the Devs are not human, players expect us to be gods which commit no mistakes.
If I misunderstood, perhaps giving an example might help.
I feel one of the issues is the current MMO player. Years ago the majority of MMO players were adults who could afford/were willing to spend $15 a month on an online game. Since the target audience was more mature, the game mechanics were more mature/complicated. Now both my kids (under 16) have accounts and from my understanding the 14 to 24 crowd is the biggest player base for MMO's. It makes sense that developers are designing games for this crowd, thou it sucks for us old timers to see us getting less from MMO's each year. Remember when MMO's had player housing, multiple play areas, customized clothing/food and crafting was an actual profession? We dont see much of that anymore.
New games like CO and STO go live with less than half the content older games had at launch.
Not to mention there are some teenagers with sopihsticated tastes like thyself.
The audience is being tricked to think these washed down games are fun and are not introduced to the old school system as you may call it (I had to find out for myself how games orginally worked from paper and pen games, I was pretty impressed when I first found out about them).
You also have the misconception that all MMO developers share the same technology too.
Glen ''Famine'' Swan
Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom
I shortened this post down to certain points & I agree. I find it funny that the first MMOs I ever played back in 1997-1999 (Ultima Online - PVP & EQ1 - PVE) were far more enjoyable than any games i've played since them. It seems to me that the fantasy based MMOs these days all are all made to resemble World of Warcraft. They're dumbed down, easy to play, button mashing games that require little to no thought in order to advance. Does this make a game lame though? That is a matter of opinion. The fact is WoW has had the largest number of subscribers in history. So the game obviously isn't lame to everyone. It's just not my type of game. MMO developers focus on younger players as their target demographic because there is a larger audiance & that means more money to be made. I think it would be great if a game company could break away from this current trend and create an MMO with adults in mind.
You do realize that a major complaint against WoW is that it focused too much on the casual adult gamers and is abandomning the younger more hardcore gamers?
Maybe MMOs were always this lame, just now, they're lame in different ways than they used to be. My diagnosis is the burned out vet, correct me if I'm wrong.
This statement is false.
This
Companies should share part of the blame too though. Think of all the additional coding and programming time that would have to go into that. You'd have to hire people just to create in game housing and content for those homes, others to create the custom clothing/food and crafting. My biggest complaint is the shallow back stories. Almost seems like no one is willing to hire a couple of professional writers to create them anymore. Just half *** it no one is going to read it anyways. Then again hiring all these extra people involves a lot more cost. Why spend it when you can make a game without it and people will still pay you $15 a month to play or more if it is a cash shop game?
This and that..
Good post
MMOs have become lame because , The name has been taken in vein and used for other purposes.
The player bases average inteligence level has dropped as the massive numbers of average people have poured in and demand whack-a-mole.
People do not wich to play games wuith challenge/ death penalties / or time syncs , people demand end game some of the older MMOs did not have end game... (End game is for Arena game specialists not MMOs)
The reason the MMOs have become Lame is becaue they are not MMOs as in the original definition:
Which used to have:
Gameplay ( What gameplay can you count from 1 to 10 Hurahj you have won)
Real Craft and Trade
Travel to trade (Replaced now with mail systems)
Economy and effort (Replaced with easy mode AHs)
Community ( Replaced by guilds who destroy this and the game focus is niot the world but self interest)
Longevity ( End game in weeks, where is the content and depth ?)
Fun (Its a rat race to beat the game)
And there we have it..... What made the original MMOs great has been replaced with ease.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Seems like WoW started the problem and now we are in a mess so I see from everyone's comments, not happy about it. So I guess every MMO has fallen flat and are not good, yet people still play them. I can't seem to find any recommendations of what game to try out, I read somewhere that Sandbox based MMOs are better, is there a full list of these anywhere?
Whilst the launch of WoW certainly opened the flood gates, it also raised the bar in terms of the overall level of quality that customers began to expect. Unfortunately, that meant that more pressure was put on MMO's to attain that level of quality. Is it WoW's fault that they fail at this? Nope.
In my opinion, MMO companies focus so hard on their own latest "gimmick" and "innovative" feature in order to attract customers, that they forget to actually get the very foundation right. A foundation that is based on a collection of very basic elements that many players expect in an MMO. Hence MMOs launch with "gimmicks" and "features", but all that hard work put into them is overshadowed by a VERY noticable lack of focus on the very basic elements that customers expect, including:
Sufficient longevity in gameplay: Sorry STO, but 80 hours worth just aint enough to encourage subs.
Storylines for world story arcs and quest systems: No game story arc can be viewed as a lack of purpose and direction and context for the game. Even the sci-fi MMO's are realising this.
Catering for multiple playstyles: Yes, its harder to build a game for multiple playstyles, but WoW set the standard. However, if done right, catering for multiple playstyles gives people options. More options = potentially more players. But, its no use SAYING that you're catering for multiple playstyles, if you don't have the time or resources to do it. That's how you get a bad reputation.
Enough content to cover all areas of progression: Having a well polished starting area is nice. But if there's little else, people will leave just as quickly as they arrived. Having an overall lack of content won't fool people for long.
A gameworld that is larger than just a collection of progression zones: Specific areas that act as "hubs" for activities should not constitute the entirety of a gameworld.
Engaging and worthwhile crafting / harvesting / economy synergy: This helps to enrich the gameworld, just like storylines, quests and each of the other playstyles. To forsake it is like ignoring the possibility that PVP can enrich the game as a whole.
Some people on these forums like to point fingers at the recent MMO's as evidence that copying WoW is a recipe for disaster. Actually, in my opinion, I think that these games didn't copy it ENOUGH. As much as I hate the term, they aren't even in the same league as WoW to justify calling them "clones".
What I mean is that in terms of the overall level of quality, many of them only paid "lip service" to the basic concepts found in WoW and thus suffered the consequences for not actually paying attention to the one lesson that WoW was trying to teach the rest of the MMO industry: POLISH and REFINEMENT. Take the tried and tested concepts and refine them.
How can the other MMOs hope to compete with WoW when they can't even match its level of quality, let alone surpass it. And I'm not even talking about the level of quality it has now.
So, why can't the more recent MMO's even attain the WoW level of overall quality? This probably is because they have so much to do and not enough time to do it. If WoWs level of quality puts such a high demand on resources and time, why bother focusing on "gimmicks", "innovations" and "features" if that means forsaking the very elements and concepts that players have come to expect from a particular product?
Its no use a car having the body of a Ferrari, but has no engine. Though it may look good, it fails at the very basic task that it was created to do. In the end, its just eye candy. Nothing more.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_free_massively_multiplayer_online_games
Gekkeiju Online (I hear its friendly, not sure though, drawback are it's old, few people, and donation system gives players extra "stats". Not sure if it has pvp or not though.)
Other than that, no. I don't like MMORPG's anymore. Once MMORPGs go P2P with added expansions (with no cash shop), then I could care less about the quality of the game. I won't have fun knowing I'm not getting my money's worth if they add a cash shop. (WoW, EQ II have cash shops and they are P2P, and it's not just cosmetics.)
People have become so obsessed with subs numbers and profit perhaps? They forget that these are supposed to be video games and not the stock market, corportatism has taken over the industry like every other facet of life finding new ways to drain people's wallets like the teleco industry with broadband data caps not because of the very small minority of heavy data users but their bottom line profits and when profits are down they come up with more incomptent ideas to piss off more consumers and charge you more for the same serivce but with the same mediocore results and service.
In a Eutopian Star Trek type world, everything would be free. But its not. Ask yourself, WHY are companies focused on money? Do YOU work for free? In all probability, the answer is no. So why should developers? They have to put food on the table just like you or I. So in that respect why should a video games developer be considered any different to someone who buys and sells shares for a living? The answer is: All of us need money to put food on the table and clothes on our backs.
To think that MMO companies JUST exist for the passion of making games would be very naive indeed. They exist to make money from producing particular products. It's that simple. It's the same reason why ANY non-charity company exists. These aren't just a couple of snotty nosed teens living in a basement somewhere for free. They are fully fledged businesses with have outgoings to pay for.
The point is that it doesn't matter whether you're talking about video games, boxes of corn or shares in oil companies. Money makes the world go around. You can hate it all you like, but that's the fact of the matter. If you don't like the way the world works, fine, go and find a desert island somewhere and live off coconuts for the rest of your life whilst being bored out of your mind because everything costs money.
As for charging the same for less / charging more for the same, we have to remember that costs have risen in the last decade. We are in a global recession. The worlds economies are in turmoil because of how everyone has been throwing their money around in the past. So now, the purse strings have been tightened. Yes, it sucks and means that we get screwed a bit more.
As we're in a recession, companies in ALL industries have to start being a little more frugal with how they spend their money. That includes looking harder at ways to either justify an increase in expenditure (and hope that the product recoups that increase in reasonable time), or improve efficiencies both in how their products function, and in how they produce them (staff lay offs, cuts in bonuses and wage rises, reductions in budgets, etc, etc). In actual fact, its times like this, when money is tight, that the most advances in technology and efficiency are made. The same happened approximately 70 years ago. However, just because we're in a recession, shouldn't give companies justification for producing shoddy goods. You can try to "cut corners" to reduce costs, but cut too many and your product loses a lot of quality.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
maybe you're just to picky. there is no perfect MMORPG. RoM had a lot of things i didn't like but it kept me playing for a few months. ya, they aren't as good as they used to be, but i wouldn't say they're all lame. wait for GW2, TOR, Rift, and Tera. they come out next year and are looking pretty good. or just take a break from MMORPG's for a while.
Yess all of us need to make money. This is not about folks being paid to program a game. This is about game companies in general producing the same old stuff over and over. I have not seen much inovation in the past 3 years, just lots of lets copy the other guys widget.
After a while companies that have been around a while start to dumb down the content. I will point at eq2, lotro, wow. Used to take a good while to level. Nowdays in eq2 a full month bam level 90, lotro I can grow a level 65 in under 2 weeks. Wow same thing. All of this made possible to placate the crying little babies going omg the game is to hard, and the companies willing to nerf down the content to keep the child who at the end of the week goes to another game anyway. A lot of these whiney little kids move on to other games and have no sence of loyatly to the company,
So yes getting paid to do your job great, turning out the same out trash not so good. All the game companies producing almost the same kind of product and calling it inovative is bad.
However it seams the masses will accept anything handed to them, and go ohh good i my shiney new pony, or i got my shiney new backpack, or gee were going free to play Im so happy I will not have to sub again.
What really bothers me is the companies make tons of cash, and based on the dev cycle I been seeing I dont see the cash being re-invested into the product, because it it was you would have tons of updates (points at lotro 9 months no content other than fluff festales).
Sub numbers do matter in MMORPGs because the amount of fun is tied to population of servers. I am not going to play a MMO if there is no one around, no matter how good the gameplay is.
Money is a means to an end, not an end in itself.
Don't forget that MMOs exist in the first place because hobbiests with a vision made them happen - businesses didn't create them, they just took them up a level of polish and sophistication, outcompeting the original visionary-and-community-created MUDs. In any creative industry, as the business becomes disconnected from the hobby that created it, you lose a critical spark
The state of the business right now is like that moment in playing an MMO when you realize you are doing things not because of fun or story but because it is the most efficient use of your time to maximize your harvesting.