in all honesty why are people still complaining about this? its truely pathetic. Swimming/Jumping never hurt FFX!, and why change it? People talk about how its not realistic because i cant jump or swim. First of all thats bull...if thats the case for you to be able to swim you should have to take your armor off to swim because swimming in full plate gear is so doable...... and if you say oh cloth wearers, yes but again no balance, i can swim in my armor but you cant? same for jumping. Either buy the game or dont. If you didnt like FFXI because of these features not being in the game dont expect it for FFXIV. Love it or hate it cuz SE knows what there doing and wont change for the WoW fanboys
You always hear complaints about water being used as a boundary, but never mountains.
With as open as zones already appear to be in the game, does it honestly matter if they enable swimming or not?
A wall is a wall, personally I think staring over a lake/ocean boundary is at least prettier than a bland mountain side.
Actually, to be fair, you do...
this is a big part of the reason that so many lament to (practical) loss of Vanguard as a game with a future, despite it having so many other issues. The realisation that you can get to any point you can see is pretty amazing.
Arttificial walls are bad in a game, especially ones that make you go wtf I could jump that or swim that easily. Defending walls in a genre that has shown that it's entirely possible and viable to build a world without them is confusing to me.
There are games that have basketball in them, is this game a step backwards because it doesnt?
I think you know the answer to this........
It's just not a focus of the content, it doesnt make it a step backwards.
Yet another bad comparison. Your missing my point here. Basketball games follow established game design, it's all just iimproved upon with each new AAA tittle release just as every previous new AAA MMO title has done so. Do I have to name them here? Have the FF14 devs seen any previous title? Jumping, swimming, navigating the long repetitive terrains with speed and ease, and just exploration in general has been a huge focus of these MMO games. Why is it that the latest one doesn't even integrate a feature that has not only been present, but even improved upon to some degree in most previous MMOs to date. Have you never noticed that in most MMO games you purchase mounts to get around quicker? Its been a barely-improved-upon standard design with the exception of a few newer MMOs like Aion.
They integrated flight mechanics. It helps players navigate the terrains easier and it's intuitive. It is an improvement on the standard design. Ill say it again. SE should ask themselves "why not" instead of "why" if they ever discuss the feature. And I am probably going to be right about this post launch. The feature will be saught after by many players and they will eventually see that there is a demand for these standard explorative features just how the Aion devs eventually got to work on the feature post launch.
Okay Tanaka should atleast take a short look at just about any previous AAA MMO and take a hint. The boundaries in them suck. And sure, FF11 didn't have it and maybe it was okay. Then... Which was a long time ago cmon guys its 2010 let me jump with space bar and go in the freaking water stop putting walls in my face or iron boots on my feet.
You missed the point of what I posted. Which was simply...
Why implement swimming? Is it necessary for immersion? What if no content involved water activities? What if they wanted it to be like that, if it followed lore, etc?
There are games of every genre that are successful games and not lacking in the slightest because they didnt include a feature from a previous game in the genre.
Who cares about swimming if it isn't a focus of the game?
I guess ultimately the only thing I can say is, if you don't like the game or what it provides, don't play?
I played WoW for a long time and i must say that all the quests involving swimming ARE SO DAMN ANNOYING. I just cannot stand fighting in water and stuff. Casting fireballs in water ? Swimming with a full plate ?That's killing immersion. Water is part of the geography, I have no problem only touching it with my fishing rod.
Jumping isn’t really necessary to keep immersion if… my character acts intelligently (or at least expectedly) in the environment.
Watching one FF14 beta video shows a player running almost parallel to a fence. She gets stuck on it. Why? Why doesn’t the character “help” you a little bit by moving slightly to the side so you can keep moving forward? These are the kinds of experiences that break immersion for me.
Looking at FF13, which 14 was based off that world’s core toolset. If I reach a location or an obstacle like a fallen tree my character automatically jumps over it. I never feel stuck in the world. Granted the path in 13 is linear versus open on 14. However, why not use the same logic to address common navigation issues? MMORPG’s are “old hat” now, how come we still see raw implementation of mechanics? Controls/movement and UX should be so basic to address on list of challenges. Things like core gameplay, class balance/challenge, solo/group, risk/reward, etc...
I am not just jumping all over 14. Other games on the horizon seem to demonstrate this too.
Swimming isn’t really necessary if… well based on a subjective approach it is.
Part of the MMORPG experience is placing yourself in a fantastic world with a fantastic story. Doing things you cannot do in your world. Forget the character progression, the combat mechanics, the armor accruing and other elements, focus on the basic principle of founding RPG games. It was your story in a fanciful world.
Keep in mind I am coming at this from one angle only, trying to be sorta mindful of /walloftext.
Swimming in a magical world is allowing yourself to do something you normally cannot, like flinging a fireball or swinging a sword at a troll. Exploring an undersea environment is definitely part of the fantasy immersion. It is part of creating a complete magical experience. Some of the more remarkable locales in other games were under water.
I will close with a thought to the “don’t like it, don’t play it” squad. That quip thrown as a general response works for niche. Final Fantasy is liked by many types of gamers. I do like FF, so when a limitation or strangled implementation of certain mechanics is evident it alienates me, and I don’t want to be alienated by something I like.
There are a lot of short sighted gamers out there. If you go to a five star hotel you have certain expectations, same with two or three star hotel/motel though quite different of course.
With a triple-A game I have certain expectations (hopes). I expect a complete world – can I live without things like jumping and swimming? Yes. Should I have to? No.
And that is what I am saying the whole time, they did not work it in because really there was nothing they put in game that would require swimming no dungeon to get to or little island that has something you need to do or anything. Swimming would then be wasted in a game like this since there is nothing for you to do that requires swimming, I rather they improve elsewhere then work on swimming or jumping if it means I will have a better game because they said screw swimming/jumping then I am all for it, but if they said no lets not finish this cause everyone would like swimming and jumping instead I would be dissapointed in what they did not accomplish to please the few that wanted it.
Again do not get me wrong I think it would of been great if they would of implemented both things, but if they said it was not needed for them to make a good game, I am a guy that knows very little about making a game so why would I question there decision. Does it make things easier if they do not have to worry about jumping or swimming? I am sure it does, from what I read the mechanics have issues with collision and a bunch of other things and the whole engine has to be reworked for it to work. You might be right and they where lazy but then again we are crying over spilled milk the game is pretty much here and the mechanics are not so lets get over it and move on.
And that is what I am saying the whole time, they did not work it in because really there was nothing they put in game that would require swimming no dungeon to get to or little island that has something you need to do or anything.
That statement sounds really sad to me for some reason... The loss all those things that even this little bit suggests that would require swimming is a shame in any game.
I definitly get that they have designed to game to not need swimming, but that in itself means they have intentionally cut a lot of potentional environmental diversity and exploration out.
You might be right but they did not build anything out in the water and you have not seen the world so you can not say they cut out a lot of exploration when you have not explored the world itself. I don't know what to tell you other than I hope if you play you enjoy the game, cause we can argue one point and then another and it is not going to make a lick of difference cause they will still not implement it.
Maybe not so much with swimming, but I'll tell you, i feel so CONFINED if I can't jump in a game. It may be almost useless. But it's something I need to be able to do to immerse myself in a game. Even going from WoW back to Guild Wars again, not being able to jump annoyed me all the time. It may be stupid, but it's a detail that shouldn't be overlooked.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the game even has a "sea-faring" type race, right? One that is adept at piracy and sailing? The Lalafell? At the very least, their description talks about the islands of the north seas, and sea-commerce, etc. In any case, the immersion breaking thing for ME is when you see something in game, a river, a lake, the shore of an ocean, and you cant interact with it. When I play a game and I see a mountain, I say "I want to climb that and see what is at the top, and on the other side." Similarly, when I see a lake, I say "I want to swim in that, see what is at the bottom, and on the other side." Games that prevent that naturally inquisitive, exploratory nature are too limiting for me, and I believe some other people as well.
There are reasons to swim. Why did the chicken swim across the creek? To get to the other side!
There are reasons to jump. Why did the chicken jump over the reasonably low wall? To get to the other side!
Of course, most games that include swimming and jumping do not do so in such a logical manner. Yes, the guy wearing plate and carrying a full load swims and jumps just as well as the guy in his skivvies.
For those saying there is no need for swimming and jumping, have you ever played DDO? You see, the concept of jumping and swimming for some folks goes back to the 70s... DDO does a fairly decent job of that - you need to swim to certain areas to get certain things - you need to jump to certain areas to get certain things.
For some of us, those are things we take for granted. Things are not always going to be easily obtainable.
Game A (no jumping/no swimming): The key is under the neon sign stating "HERE! IS THE KEY!" out in the middle of a field with butterflies and unicorns exchanging rainbow kisses.
Game B (jumping/swimming): You have to jump up to climb up on a ledge, jump across a crevasse, then dive into the water, swim through a cave, climb up out of the water, jump up reach another ledge, then follow the winding path to the key.
So yeah, people are going to complain about it...
...but still, to have the guy in full plate and lugging all the dragon's loot along with him as he skips, frolics, pirouettes across the glen before diving into the huge lake to swim to the other side is just epic failsauce in its own right.
Just my two cents. Well, maybe thirty-six cents...
edit: edited for typo demons
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the game even has a "sea-faring" type race, right? One that is adept at piracy and sailing? The Lalafell? At the very least, their description talks about the islands of the north seas, and sea-commerce, etc. In any case, the immersion breaking thing for ME is when you see something in game, a river, a lake, the shore of an ocean, and you cant interact with it. When I play a game and I see a mountain, I say "I want to climb that and see what is at the top, and on the other side." Similarly, when I see a lake, I say "I want to swim in that, see what is at the bottom, and on the other side." Games that prevent that naturally inquisitive, exploratory nature are too limiting for me, and I believe some other people as well.
They are too limiting for me as well, so you are correct. I quit Ryzom because of the lack of interactivity in world parts. Invisible walls turn me off.
You might be right but they did not build anything out in the water and you have not seen the world so you can not say they cut out a lot of exploration when you have not explored the world itself.
No, but the point I was making is that the exclusion of swimming actually strips out an entire environment from the game and playing EQ2 now, with it's underwater zones, easter eggs, quests, and nameds, thats a real shame to me.
cause we can argue one point and then another and it is not going to make a lick of difference cause they will still not implement it.
No, I get that and thats why I won't be buying it. These discussions have actually been invaluable to helping reach that descision, so I guess it really has made a lick of difference them not bothering to incorperate it.
The point is its just rediculous in a game nowadays for you not to be able to jump or swim.Its about immersion. Whether it has any purpose or not, it feels nice when you have full control of your character. And how does it kill immersion? Are you serious? Hmm i wonder how being rooted to the ground 24/7 and running smack into an invisible wall whenever you hit water could kill immersion...
no final fantasy game has swiming or jumping get that threw your head the ff mmos are Fianl fantasy games FIRST and MMOS second.
if you dont like it go play all the other mmos that let you jump like a damn monkey. in ffxi your eally didnt hit a wall you could stillw lak in the water that you could get to but must water was below where you could wlak so you just get stuck on the edges instead.
like this i guess 7--- top of the 7 is the ground the middle is the water
in the dunes there was a way to get itnot he water and go around the cliff tot he other side while you was under water
Hehe, it looks like people are grasping at more useless crap to complain about today. I am gald we won't have the jumping goons in the game. As far as swimming goes, meh it's a minor perk at best. If the game play and design don't call for swimming then you really need to just move on to another game. I appreciate the concerns, but it's not gonna make a lick of difference with the SE folks. Down the road if they implement something, then super. For now, it is hardly the most important concern. Solid environment, leveling, and growth experiences are much higher on the importance level.
Side note, if you are really needing swimming in a game to have "immersion" then you might be disappointed with many games in the MMO genre.
but c'mon how can anyone justify their lack of jumping and swimming?
Fanboys attempt to isolate groups of people and turn it into divisive style speech much like politicians, saying that they are annoyed by people jumping around, or an even better 1/2 as argument is the whole "they didnt even design content for it so its not necessary"
the truth is SE is lazy and just wants your money and you fanboys are obviously suckers. You probably still believe all the crap George Bush said.
Money talks, and to all the actual gamers out there I suggest you hold onto your money when it comes to FFXIV, otherwise you will be sending a message that developers and publishers can release a half ass game and still make money
when does swiiming and jumping make a game good. so far ffxi is my favorite mmo. and didnt have jumping or swimming
but c'mon how can anyone justify their lack of jumping and swimming?
Fanboys attempt to isolate groups of people and turn it into divisive style speech much like politicians, saying that they are annoyed by people jumping around, or an even better 1/2 as argument is the whole "they didnt even design content for it so its not necessary"
the truth is SE is lazy and just wants your money and you fanboys are obviously suckers. You probably still believe all the crap George Bush said.
Money talks, and to all the actual gamers out there I suggest you hold onto your money when it comes to FFXIV, otherwise you will be sending a message that developers and publishers can release a half ass game and still make money
the haters just comes up with post like yours. So what are you getting it? lol dont be callign th fanboy suckers . cause if thats the case people like you are not wanted
The point is its just rediculous in a game nowadays for you not to be able to jump or swim.Its about immersion. Whether it has any purpose or not, it feels nice when you have full control of your character. And how does it kill immersion? Are you serious? Hmm i wonder how being rooted to the ground 24/7 and running smack into an invisible wall whenever you hit water could kill immersion...
no final fantasy game has swiming or jumping get that threw your head the ff mmos are Fianl fantasy games FIRST and MMOS second.
if you dont like it go play all the other mmos that let you jump like a damn monkey. in ffxi your eally didnt hit a wall you could stillw lak in the water that you could get to but must water was below where you could wlak so you just get stuck on the edges instead.
like this i guess 7--- top of the 7 is the ground the middle is the water
in the dunes there was a way to get itnot he water and go around the cliff tot he other side while you was under water
Hehe, it looks like people are grasping at more useless crap to complain about today. I am gald we won't have the jumping goons in the game. As far as swimming goes, meh it's a minor perk at best. If the game play and design don't call for swimming then you really need to just move on to another game. I appreciate the concerns, but it's not gonna make a lick of difference with the SE folks. Down the road if they implement something, then super. For now, it is hardly the most important concern. Solid environment, leveling, and growth experiences are much higher on the importance level.
Side note, if you are really needing swimming in a game to have "immersion" then you might be disappointed with many games in the MMO genre.
END OF LINE_
~V
Its hard for me to fathom what kind of person believes this is acceptable. These are basic mechanics that have been in games for years, infact very few games do not have them let alone those that call themselves next gen. Your shameless attitude about discluding people for the fact that they jump is a peer into your persona.
Thats fine if you choose to live in a world where your abilities are limited, by your post I can clearly see your thought process is on point with that. I do believe that you are one of the negative forces that to blame for mmo's kind of de evolving. I never planned on playing FF because I always thought it was kind of feminine, and not sexy feminine, like 8 year old feminine, so hey no loss over here.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
The point is its just rediculous in a game nowadays for you not to be able to jump or swim.Its about immersion. Whether it has any purpose or not, it feels nice when you have full control of your character. And how does it kill immersion? Are you serious? Hmm i wonder how being rooted to the ground 24/7 and running smack into an invisible wall whenever you hit water could kill immersion...
no final fantasy game has swiming or jumping get that threw your head the ff mmos are Fianl fantasy games FIRST and MMOS second.
if you dont like it go play all the other mmos that let you jump like a damn monkey. in ffxi your eally didnt hit a wall you could stillw lak in the water that you could get to but must water was below where you could wlak so you just get stuck on the edges instead.
like this i guess 7--- top of the 7 is the ground the middle is the water
in the dunes there was a way to get itnot he water and go around the cliff tot he other side while you was under water
Hehe, it looks like people are grasping at more useless crap to complain about today. I am gald we won't have the jumping goons in the game. As far as swimming goes, meh it's a minor perk at best. If the game play and design don't call for swimming then you really need to just move on to another game. I appreciate the concerns, but it's not gonna make a lick of difference with the SE folks. Down the road if they implement something, then super. For now, it is hardly the most important concern. Solid environment, leveling, and growth experiences are much higher on the importance level.
Side note, if you are really needing swimming in a game to have "immersion" then you might be disappointed with many games in the MMO genre.
END OF LINE_
~V
Its hard for me to fathom what kind of person believes this is acceptable. These are basic mechanics that have been in games for years, infact very few games do not have them let alone those that call themselves next gen. Your shameless attitude about discluding people for the fact that they jump is a peer into your persona.
Thats fine if you choose to live in a world where your abilities are limited, by your post I can clearly see your thought process is on point with that. I do believe that you are one of the negative forces that to blame for mmo's kind of de evolving. I never planned on playing FF because I always thought it was kind of feminine, and not sexy feminine, like 8 year old feminine, so hey no loss over here.
final fantasy games never have had jumping or swiming 10 did but thats the only one i remeber but it never had jumping. ffxiv is a final fantasy game first and mmo second GET OVER IT SE ISNT GOIING TO CHANGE THIER MIND
but c'mon how can anyone justify their lack of jumping and swimming?
Fanboys attempt to isolate groups of people and turn it into divisive style speech much like politicians, saying that they are annoyed by people jumping around, or an even better 1/2 as argument is the whole "they didnt even design content for it so its not necessary"
the truth is SE is lazy and just wants your money and you fanboys are obviously suckers. You probably still believe all the crap George Bush said.
Money talks, and to all the actual gamers out there I suggest you hold onto your money when it comes to FFXIV, otherwise you will be sending a message that developers and publishers can release a half ass game and still make money
the haters just comes up with post like yours. So what are you getting it? lol dont be callign th fanboy suckers . cause if thats the case people like you are not wanted
Im not a fanboy hater, Im just calling it as it is.
Its funny you say Im not wanted but you have no control over who plays that stupid game anyways.
This post is about not being able to swim. If you think its okay for a company to release a game with invisible walls and still call it next gen, thats fine, you are entitled to YOUR opinion, but the truth is FFXIV will never be considered next gen from actual logical thinking people. Any game that boasts a huge world that has invisible barriers or tiny little fences that keep the world strongest warrior from going where they choose is not next gen. You can defend it all you like, but you wind up looking like a fool.
I never intended on playing the game, and I will let you have last word because, hey its your game, but please do not degrade the definition of next gen by attempting to include this piss poor example of game design in that category.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
Its hard for me to fathom what kind of person believes this is acceptable. These are basic mechanics that have been in games for years, infact very few games do not have them let alone those that call themselves next gen. Your shameless attitude about discluding people for the fact that they jump is a peer into your persona.
Thats fine if you choose to live in a world where your abilities are limited, by your post I can clearly see your thought process is on point with that. I do believe that you are one of the negative forces that to blame for mmo's kind of de evolving. I never planned on playing FF because I always thought it was kind of feminine, and not sexy feminine, like 8 year old feminine, so hey no loss over here.
Here's the other side of the story.
I've played the next gen mmo's you speak of. Some I loved (LOTRO) and some were worthless (Warhammer). What you consider to be "standard" mmo features have been tainted by your experiences because all the mmo's that hve been released in the last 3-4 years have been WOW clones.
They have become "standard" because they wanted to share WoW's success. Here's the flipside. In my 2.5 years of playing FFXI (mind you, I left for other reasons, not because I found something else), I NEVER EVER said to myself... "man, I wish I could jump/swim."
The world was designed in a way where I was completely immersed and loved what it had to offer. Jumping and swiming did not matter, AT ALL.
The only reason it's important to you is because every other mmo has it.... Do yourself a favor, if you and others have such a mental block when it comes to swimming and jumping, then don't play FFXIV. I really believe you won't enjoy it. Your preconceived notions are set in stone and no amount of convincing/or playing for that matter will persuade you otherwise.
I'm not condemning you or saying what you believe is wrong. FAR FROM IT. But you should also accept that not having jumping or swiming in a game is JUST AS ACCEPTABLE. Not all games are designed for everyone. Some games cater to one over the other. If you prefer jumping and swinging and they have to be in an mmo, then every single other mmo that is coming out will have it. Leave FFXIV to those of us that want ONE mmo that doesn't have it, and doesn't need to have it.
but c'mon how can anyone justify their lack of jumping and swimming?
Fanboys attempt to isolate groups of people and turn it into divisive style speech much like politicians, saying that they are annoyed by people jumping around, or an even better 1/2 as argument is the whole "they didnt even design content for it so its not necessary"
the truth is SE is lazy and just wants your money and you fanboys are obviously suckers. You probably still believe all the crap George Bush said.
Money talks, and to all the actual gamers out there I suggest you hold onto your money when it comes to FFXIV, otherwise you will be sending a message that developers and publishers can release a half ass game and still make money
the haters just comes up with post like yours. So what are you getting it? lol dont be callign th fanboy suckers . cause if thats the case people like you are not wanted
Im not a fanboy hater, Im just calling it as it is.
Its funny you say Im not wanted but you have no control over who plays that stupid game anyways.
This post is about not being able to swim. If you think its okay for a company to release a game with invisible walls and still call it next gen, thats fine, you are entitled to YOUR opinion, but the truth is FFXIV will never be considered next gen from actual logical thinking people. Any game that boasts a huge world that has invisible barriers or tiny little fences that keep the world strongest warrior from going where they choose is not next gen. You can defend it all you like, but you wind up looking like a fool.
I never intended on playing the game, and I will let you have last word because, hey its your game, but please do not degrade the definition of next gen by attempting to include this piss poor example of game design in that category.
you never intended to play ffxiv then why are you bitchign thats theres no swiming and or jumping callin the fanboys suckers and se lazy then?
The point is its just rediculous in a game nowadays for you not to be able to jump or swim.Its about immersion. Whether it has any purpose or not, it feels nice when you have full control of your character. And how does it kill immersion? Are you serious? Hmm i wonder how being rooted to the ground 24/7 and running smack into an invisible wall whenever you hit water could kill immersion...
no final fantasy game has swiming or jumping get that threw your head the ff mmos are Fianl fantasy games FIRST and MMOS second.
if you dont like it go play all the other mmos that let you jump like a damn monkey. in ffxi your eally didnt hit a wall you could stillw lak in the water that you could get to but must water was below where you could wlak so you just get stuck on the edges instead.
like this i guess 7--- top of the 7 is the ground the middle is the water
in the dunes there was a way to get itnot he water and go around the cliff tot he other side while you was under water
Hehe, it looks like people are grasping at more useless crap to complain about today. I am gald we won't have the jumping goons in the game. As far as swimming goes, meh it's a minor perk at best. If the game play and design don't call for swimming then you really need to just move on to another game. I appreciate the concerns, but it's not gonna make a lick of difference with the SE folks. Down the road if they implement something, then super. For now, it is hardly the most important concern. Solid environment, leveling, and growth experiences are much higher on the importance level.
Side note, if you are really needing swimming in a game to have "immersion" then you might be disappointed with many games in the MMO genre.
END OF LINE_
~V
Its hard for me to fathom what kind of person believes this is acceptable. These are basic mechanics that have been in games for years, infact very few games do not have them let alone those that call themselves next gen. Your shameless attitude about discluding people for the fact that they jump is a peer into your persona.
Thats fine if you choose to live in a world where your abilities are limited, by your post I can clearly see your thought process is on point with that. I do believe that you are one of the negative forces that to blame for mmo's kind of de evolving. I never planned on playing FF because I always thought it was kind of feminine, and not sexy feminine, like 8 year old feminine, so hey no loss over here.
If you can't fathom the type of person that finds a point of view in contrast to your own then you must talk to a lot of walls. It's acceptable to many that support this game, but it's completely in your right to disagree with an issue. Freedom is a good thing, but I do ask that you realize that the standards are only made when people expect them. You are very fast to quick lip and attack those that differ from your opinions, I feel for you. The world of forums can be a painful place for parties that can't understand a difference of opinion. I wish you the best and hopefully, someday, a clear sense of mind to approach things without an accusatory tone.
Comments
in all honesty why are people still complaining about this? its truely pathetic. Swimming/Jumping never hurt FFX!, and why change it? People talk about how its not realistic because i cant jump or swim. First of all thats bull...if thats the case for you to be able to swim you should have to take your armor off to swim because swimming in full plate gear is so doable...... and if you say oh cloth wearers, yes but again no balance, i can swim in my armor but you cant? same for jumping. Either buy the game or dont. If you didnt like FFXI because of these features not being in the game dont expect it for FFXIV. Love it or hate it cuz SE knows what there doing and wont change for the WoW fanboys
Actually, to be fair, you do...
this is a big part of the reason that so many lament to (practical) loss of Vanguard as a game with a future, despite it having so many other issues. The realisation that you can get to any point you can see is pretty amazing.
Arttificial walls are bad in a game, especially ones that make you go wtf I could jump that or swim that easily. Defending walls in a genre that has shown that it's entirely possible and viable to build a world without them is confusing to me.
You missed the point of what I posted. Which was simply...
Why implement swimming? Is it necessary for immersion? What if no content involved water activities? What if they wanted it to be like that, if it followed lore, etc?
There are games of every genre that are successful games and not lacking in the slightest because they didnt include a feature from a previous game in the genre.
Who cares about swimming if it isn't a focus of the game?
I guess ultimately the only thing I can say is, if you don't like the game or what it provides, don't play?
I played WoW for a long time and i must say that all the quests involving swimming ARE SO DAMN ANNOYING. I just cannot stand fighting in water and stuff. Casting fireballs in water ? Swimming with a full plate ?That's killing immersion. Water is part of the geography, I have no problem only touching it with my fishing rod.
Jumping isn’t really necessary to keep immersion if… my character acts intelligently (or at least expectedly) in the environment.
Watching one FF14 beta video shows a player running almost parallel to a fence. She gets stuck on it. Why? Why doesn’t the character “help” you a little bit by moving slightly to the side so you can keep moving forward? These are the kinds of experiences that break immersion for me.
Looking at FF13, which 14 was based off that world’s core toolset. If I reach a location or an obstacle like a fallen tree my character automatically jumps over it. I never feel stuck in the world. Granted the path in 13 is linear versus open on 14. However, why not use the same logic to address common navigation issues? MMORPG’s are “old hat” now, how come we still see raw implementation of mechanics? Controls/movement and UX should be so basic to address on list of challenges. Things like core gameplay, class balance/challenge, solo/group, risk/reward, etc...
I am not just jumping all over 14. Other games on the horizon seem to demonstrate this too.
Swimming isn’t really necessary if… well based on a subjective approach it is.
Part of the MMORPG experience is placing yourself in a fantastic world with a fantastic story. Doing things you cannot do in your world. Forget the character progression, the combat mechanics, the armor accruing and other elements, focus on the basic principle of founding RPG games. It was your story in a fanciful world.
Keep in mind I am coming at this from one angle only, trying to be sorta mindful of /walloftext.
Swimming in a magical world is allowing yourself to do something you normally cannot, like flinging a fireball or swinging a sword at a troll. Exploring an undersea environment is definitely part of the fantasy immersion. It is part of creating a complete magical experience. Some of the more remarkable locales in other games were under water.
I will close with a thought to the “don’t like it, don’t play it” squad. That quip thrown as a general response works for niche. Final Fantasy is liked by many types of gamers. I do like FF, so when a limitation or strangled implementation of certain mechanics is evident it alienates me, and I don’t want to be alienated by something I like.
There are a lot of short sighted gamers out there. If you go to a five star hotel you have certain expectations, same with two or three star hotel/motel though quite different of course.
With a triple-A game I have certain expectations (hopes). I expect a complete world – can I live without things like jumping and swimming? Yes. Should I have to? No.
And that is what I am saying the whole time, they did not work it in because really there was nothing they put in game that would require swimming no dungeon to get to or little island that has something you need to do or anything. Swimming would then be wasted in a game like this since there is nothing for you to do that requires swimming, I rather they improve elsewhere then work on swimming or jumping if it means I will have a better game because they said screw swimming/jumping then I am all for it, but if they said no lets not finish this cause everyone would like swimming and jumping instead I would be dissapointed in what they did not accomplish to please the few that wanted it.
Again do not get me wrong I think it would of been great if they would of implemented both things, but if they said it was not needed for them to make a good game, I am a guy that knows very little about making a game so why would I question there decision. Does it make things easier if they do not have to worry about jumping or swimming? I am sure it does, from what I read the mechanics have issues with collision and a bunch of other things and the whole engine has to be reworked for it to work. You might be right and they where lazy but then again we are crying over spilled milk the game is pretty much here and the mechanics are not so lets get over it and move on.
That statement sounds really sad to me for some reason... The loss all those things that even this little bit suggests that would require swimming is a shame in any game.
I definitly get that they have designed to game to not need swimming, but that in itself means they have intentionally cut a lot of potentional environmental diversity and exploration out.
You might be right but they did not build anything out in the water and you have not seen the world so you can not say they cut out a lot of exploration when you have not explored the world itself. I don't know what to tell you other than I hope if you play you enjoy the game, cause we can argue one point and then another and it is not going to make a lick of difference cause they will still not implement it.
Maybe not so much with swimming, but I'll tell you, i feel so CONFINED if I can't jump in a game. It may be almost useless. But it's something I need to be able to do to immerse myself in a game. Even going from WoW back to Guild Wars again, not being able to jump annoyed me all the time. It may be stupid, but it's a detail that shouldn't be overlooked.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the game even has a "sea-faring" type race, right? One that is adept at piracy and sailing? The Lalafell? At the very least, their description talks about the islands of the north seas, and sea-commerce, etc. In any case, the immersion breaking thing for ME is when you see something in game, a river, a lake, the shore of an ocean, and you cant interact with it. When I play a game and I see a mountain, I say "I want to climb that and see what is at the top, and on the other side." Similarly, when I see a lake, I say "I want to swim in that, see what is at the bottom, and on the other side." Games that prevent that naturally inquisitive, exploratory nature are too limiting for me, and I believe some other people as well.
There are reasons to swim. Why did the chicken swim across the creek? To get to the other side!
There are reasons to jump. Why did the chicken jump over the reasonably low wall? To get to the other side!
Of course, most games that include swimming and jumping do not do so in such a logical manner. Yes, the guy wearing plate and carrying a full load swims and jumps just as well as the guy in his skivvies.
For those saying there is no need for swimming and jumping, have you ever played DDO? You see, the concept of jumping and swimming for some folks goes back to the 70s... DDO does a fairly decent job of that - you need to swim to certain areas to get certain things - you need to jump to certain areas to get certain things.
For some of us, those are things we take for granted. Things are not always going to be easily obtainable.
Game A (no jumping/no swimming): The key is under the neon sign stating "HERE! IS THE KEY!" out in the middle of a field with butterflies and unicorns exchanging rainbow kisses.
Game B (jumping/swimming): You have to jump up to climb up on a ledge, jump across a crevasse, then dive into the water, swim through a cave, climb up out of the water, jump up reach another ledge, then follow the winding path to the key.
So yeah, people are going to complain about it...
...but still, to have the guy in full plate and lugging all the dragon's loot along with him as he skips, frolics, pirouettes across the glen before diving into the huge lake to swim to the other side is just epic failsauce in its own right.
Just my two cents. Well, maybe thirty-six cents...
edit: edited for typo demons
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
They are too limiting for me as well, so you are correct. I quit Ryzom because of the lack of interactivity in world parts. Invisible walls turn me off.
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
Hehe, it looks like people are grasping at more useless crap to complain about today. I am gald we won't have the jumping goons in the game. As far as swimming goes, meh it's a minor perk at best. If the game play and design don't call for swimming then you really need to just move on to another game. I appreciate the concerns, but it's not gonna make a lick of difference with the SE folks. Down the road if they implement something, then super. For now, it is hardly the most important concern. Solid environment, leveling, and growth experiences are much higher on the importance level.
Side note, if you are really needing swimming in a game to have "immersion" then you might be disappointed with many games in the MMO genre.
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when does swiiming and jumping make a game good. so far ffxi is my favorite mmo. and didnt have jumping or swimming
the haters just comes up with post like yours. So what are you getting it? lol dont be callign th fanboy suckers . cause if thats the case people like you are not wanted
Its hard for me to fathom what kind of person believes this is acceptable. These are basic mechanics that have been in games for years, infact very few games do not have them let alone those that call themselves next gen. Your shameless attitude about discluding people for the fact that they jump is a peer into your persona.
Thats fine if you choose to live in a world where your abilities are limited, by your post I can clearly see your thought process is on point with that. I do believe that you are one of the negative forces that to blame for mmo's kind of de evolving. I never planned on playing FF because I always thought it was kind of feminine, and not sexy feminine, like 8 year old feminine, so hey no loss over here.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
final fantasy games never have had jumping or swiming 10 did but thats the only one i remeber but it never had jumping. ffxiv is a final fantasy game first and mmo second GET OVER IT SE ISNT GOIING TO CHANGE THIER MIND
Im not a fanboy hater, Im just calling it as it is.
Its funny you say Im not wanted but you have no control over who plays that stupid game anyways.
This post is about not being able to swim. If you think its okay for a company to release a game with invisible walls and still call it next gen, thats fine, you are entitled to YOUR opinion, but the truth is FFXIV will never be considered next gen from actual logical thinking people. Any game that boasts a huge world that has invisible barriers or tiny little fences that keep the world strongest warrior from going where they choose is not next gen. You can defend it all you like, but you wind up looking like a fool.
I never intended on playing the game, and I will let you have last word because, hey its your game, but please do not degrade the definition of next gen by attempting to include this piss poor example of game design in that category.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
All the people complaining about swimming are prob the same ppl that complain about class balance......go ruin SWTOR.
I didn't miss swimming or jumping in FFXI I sure won't miss it in FFXIV. They are both being made by the same team.
heh yea and i dont even think crystals tools has jump or swiming coded in
Oh man, I think the Swimming World of Modern Jumpcraft would be pretty cool.
Here's the other side of the story.
I've played the next gen mmo's you speak of. Some I loved (LOTRO) and some were worthless (Warhammer). What you consider to be "standard" mmo features have been tainted by your experiences because all the mmo's that hve been released in the last 3-4 years have been WOW clones.
They have become "standard" because they wanted to share WoW's success. Here's the flipside. In my 2.5 years of playing FFXI (mind you, I left for other reasons, not because I found something else), I NEVER EVER said to myself... "man, I wish I could jump/swim."
The world was designed in a way where I was completely immersed and loved what it had to offer. Jumping and swiming did not matter, AT ALL.
The only reason it's important to you is because every other mmo has it.... Do yourself a favor, if you and others have such a mental block when it comes to swimming and jumping, then don't play FFXIV. I really believe you won't enjoy it. Your preconceived notions are set in stone and no amount of convincing/or playing for that matter will persuade you otherwise.
I'm not condemning you or saying what you believe is wrong. FAR FROM IT. But you should also accept that not having jumping or swiming in a game is JUST AS ACCEPTABLE. Not all games are designed for everyone. Some games cater to one over the other. If you prefer jumping and swinging and they have to be in an mmo, then every single other mmo that is coming out will have it. Leave FFXIV to those of us that want ONE mmo that doesn't have it, and doesn't need to have it.
you never intended to play ffxiv then why are you bitchign thats theres no swiming and or jumping callin the fanboys suckers and se lazy then?
If you can't fathom the type of person that finds a point of view in contrast to your own then you must talk to a lot of walls. It's acceptable to many that support this game, but it's completely in your right to disagree with an issue. Freedom is a good thing, but I do ask that you realize that the standards are only made when people expect them. You are very fast to quick lip and attack those that differ from your opinions, I feel for you. The world of forums can be a painful place for parties that can't understand a difference of opinion. I wish you the best and hopefully, someday, a clear sense of mind to approach things without an accusatory tone.
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