The community. It's not there. I'm not talking about forums, guides, population, etc. No I'm talking about people actually knowing each other in the game.
I miss having enemies. Those guilds and people that you just hate and want to do everything possible to defeat them. In swg, we loved nothing more than raiding another guild's city and clone camping them for a night. It was a constant struggle between us and them. There was meta-gaming, flame wars, propaganda, etc. It was just plain fun. It felt like a real enemy in the real world.
Games now you can't even talk to the other faction in game. There are no player cities, there rarely is open world pvp, there is no sandbox. It doesn't feel like a world. It feels like a game, a souless game.
I realized this while playing wow today. I was in a battleground and was killing people, but I felt no sense of accomplishment. Nothing. In SWG I could spend 20 minutes fighting one person who I'd had a bad relationship with for months and after I killed them it felt like so much more of an accomplishment than if I had killed some no name from a different server who I'd never even talked to.
I really hope some big budget games go back to the virtual world idea. Grinding gear and points is completely boring. I want to make friends and enemies and have an actual impact on the world.
My advice go play Darkfall it have what you discribe and want in a mmo, if you can take hardcore gameplay and FFA full loot pvp, Darkfall is perfect then.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
maybe talking on forums on mmorpg.com can return us to that community sense, i know its not just us few and that there must be thousands more people who feel the same and wiill want to have the 'atmoshpere' back into the mmorpg world
Funny you mention that, I get my community fix from this website more than the multiplayer games I play now.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I disagree. We know what we want, and some developers actually take the time to use that information to make better games. Why Don;t you just ask Arena Net about that. They had us fill out surveys and they used that information to make Guild wars2. Many of us have played a great variety of games, and make educated decisions based on that experience.
It is all about supply and demand. It is the developers job to suppy us with a game that we demand. Whoever gets there first and does it the best wins our money. That is how you become successful. LOL
Heh, like I said, you think you know what you want. Everyone does.
It's just not what you really enjoy 99% of the time.
Just like people who think if they just had lots of money they'd be happy. Or a new car. Or if their life was just a bit better they'd be satisfied.
They think they know what they want. But only when you get it, you can realize you were wrong all this time.
We'll see how those "better games" end up.
you are completely right.
people want what ultimately makes them unhappy much of the time, and completey discount and discredit things that do or WOULD (if they didn't reject them with pat, simplistic, simple-minded reasons) make them happy .
the whole MMORPG thing is just one of the larger bits of proof of that. the majority that plays them clamours for the very features that makes them feel like they are working a 2nd job. no other form of entertainment has so many fans that complain about the very activities they are performing the most feeling like "grind". most people in this forum even use the word "work" to describe what should be "play" sessions.
they confuse addiction and compulsion with enjoyment.
That makes sense, and I agree to a point, but with regards to MMORGPs specifically, you wont' know that until a developer actually tries it. A lot of things that I think I want haven't been tried at all or havent been done since UO/EQ days. It's hard to know for sure what you want when developers won't even try anything new or won't go back to their roots. There may be a lot of games out now, but the choice is still very limited as far as features are concerned, in my opinion.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
The community. It's not there. I'm not talking about forums, guides, population, etc. No I'm talking about people actually knowing each other in the game.
I miss having enemies. Those guilds and people that you just hate and want to do everything possible to defeat them. In swg, we loved nothing more than raiding another guild's city and clone camping them for a night. It was a constant struggle between us and them. There was meta-gaming, flame wars, propaganda, etc. It was just plain fun. It felt like a real enemy in the real world.
Games now you can't even talk to the other faction in game. There are no player cities, there rarely is open world pvp, there is no sandbox. It doesn't feel like a world. It feels like a game, a souless game.
I realized this while playing wow today. I was in a battleground and was killing people, but I felt no sense of accomplishment. Nothing. In SWG I could spend 20 minutes fighting one person who I'd had a bad relationship with for months and after I killed them it felt like so much more of an accomplishment than if I had killed some no name from a different server who I'd never even talked to.
I really hope some big budget games go back to the virtual world idea. Grinding gear and points is completely boring. I want to make friends and enemies and have an actual impact on the world.
My advice go play Darkfall it have what you discribe and want in a mmo, if you can take hardcore gameplay and FFA full loot pvp, Darkfall is perfect then.
I played darkfall and really enjoyed it, but I couldn't find a decent guild to join and the game was way way way way way too much of a grind.
I agree, but life styles change. For you to be in a community you really have to play a lot. You can't have enemies if you log on for an hour a few times a week. You can't really have close online friends(in MMO terms) either since it takes time to grow those relationships. You get enemies playing a few hours every night for months and months fighting with them over and over. You're not going to remember 1 person of 1000s if you don't have continued exposure to them.
Basically, I can't play a MMO like I did when I started. If I could, I wouldn't be married with kids=) I can't sit down for an entire night or afternoon and play a videogame, but thats the only way you'll be a part of a community, seeing the same people over and over. For those that still play MMOs now like they did 10 years ago, all the power to them. But for many of us, its all over until the kids go off to college I guess=) Thats life. Although, I really don't have the drive to foster or make online friends anymore or get overly involved in what happens in a videogame. I'll play and have fun, but what happens after I log off is rather meaningless, since I have much more important things to be concerned with. Making online friends isn't a high priority anymore like it seemed when I was young & single.
And if you were a complete douchebag, you were known through out the server as one. Healers that go AFK during parties constantly? Blacklisted. People really knew each other.
It was the same in EQ1. If you got a bad rep as a wizzie, you might as well quit or re-roll because you were not going to get a group.
Personally, I think the genre is at a sort of crossroads for non-Wow players. The last two MMOs I've tried, FE and STO both felt like SP games. Honestly, it is my belief that TOR is going to be a make or break prospect for players like myself. If it stinks, it will be more or less the kiss of death for me as it will be just another crap release among a slew of others.
maybe talking on forums on mmorpg.com can return us to that community sense, i know its not just us few and that there must be thousands more people who feel the same and wiill want to have the 'atmoshpere' back into the mmorpg world
Funny you mention that, I get my community fix from this website more than the multiplayer games I play now.
The community. It's not there. I'm not talking about forums, guides, population, etc. No I'm talking about people actually knowing each other in the game.
I miss having enemies. Those guilds and people that you just hate and want to do everything possible to defeat them. In swg, we loved nothing more than raiding another guild's city and clone camping them for a night. It was a constant struggle between us and them. There was meta-gaming, flame wars, propaganda, etc. It was just plain fun. It felt like a real enemy in the real world.
Games now you can't even talk to the other faction in game. There are no player cities, there rarely is open world pvp, there is no sandbox. It doesn't feel like a world. It feels like a game, a souless game.
I realized this while playing wow today. I was in a battleground and was killing people, but I felt no sense of accomplishment. Nothing. In SWG I could spend 20 minutes fighting one person who I'd had a bad relationship with for months and after I killed them it felt like so much more of an accomplishment than if I had killed some no name from a different server who I'd never even talked to.
I really hope some big budget games go back to the virtual world idea. Grinding gear and points is completely boring. I want to make friends and enemies and have an actual impact on the world.
Darkfall is NOT there yet but after darkfall 2010 it will be there
MMOs were built for this. You know why everyone else is complaining about MMORPG nowadays? Yeah, soloers, I'm looking at you, too. What you're lacking is a community. The feeling of being part of something bigger than your avatar. That's what MMOs SHOULD give you, but they entirely missed the memo with the coming of so-called themeparked games. Sure, they give you bigger environments, nicer graphics, but does it fill your social gape? It's the experience you get from making friends, enemies, the works. Anybody who claims to be an avid MMORPG players are just looking for a great time, and I think new (and old) players have the wrong attitude. No game can live up to your 24/7/365 expectations. True MMORPGs are built on communities. As nice and next-gen their graphics might be, or how innovative the gameplay, it all comes down to YOU and what you make of it.
The community. It's not there. I'm not talking about forums, guides, population, etc. No I'm talking about people actually knowing each other in the game.
I miss having enemies. Those guilds and people that you just hate and want to do everything possible to defeat them. In swg, we loved nothing more than raiding another guild's city and clone camping them for a night. It was a constant struggle between us and them. There was meta-gaming, flame wars, propaganda, etc. It was just plain fun. It felt like a real enemy in the real world.
Games now you can't even talk to the other faction in game. There are no player cities, there rarely is open world pvp, there is no sandbox. It doesn't feel like a world. It feels like a game, a souless game.
I realized this while playing wow today. I was in a battleground and was killing people, but I felt no sense of accomplishment. Nothing. In SWG I could spend 20 minutes fighting one person who I'd had a bad relationship with for months and after I killed them it felt like so much more of an accomplishment than if I had killed some no name from a different server who I'd never even talked to.
I really hope some big budget games go back to the virtual world idea. Grinding gear and points is completely boring. I want to make friends and enemies and have an actual impact on the world.
God, I haven't been able to PvP at all since SWG - I know exactly what you mean. There's something about a rivalry so strong that you will literally chase someone all the way across a planet just to get a /deathblow. In WoW, sure, there's one or two Alliance that annoy the hell out of me on occasion, but without being able to communicate with them or any number of things like we used to be able to do in SWG, it's just a flat, boring and meaningless experience.
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
When they removed the need to socialize because some didnt wanted it, all MMOs got stripped of the socializing aspect.
Its easier that way. You want to socialize, find someone else who wants to! LOL, you can still chat and do stuff together!
Just because the game doesnt force everyone by design, doesnt mean you cant "get creative".
The whole community suffered side effects. What you demand is not your personal socialization, is the feeling of community, but to get that, it penetrates into others "bubbles" and many dont want that... There you go... MMO social design 101.
"Freedom to not have to socialize." When they removed the need to socialize because some didnt wanted it, all MMOs got stripped of the socializing aspect. Its easier that way. You want to socialize, find someone else who wants to! LOL, you can still chat and do stuff together! Just because the game doesnt force everyone by design, doesnt mean you cant "get creative". The whole community suffered side effects. What you demand is not your personal socialization, is the feeling of community, but to get that, it penetrates into others "bubbles" and many dont want that... There you go... MMO social design 101.
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I disagree, and this is where the casual (casual in regards to this discussion refers to predominately console gamers) mentality comes into play. Previously, MMOs didn't necessarily have forced socialization, however the game was far more enjoyable and a bit easier if you did socialize. This existed because the professions (not classes) in the game had built-in interdependencies. (Simplistic example, the Scout or Survialist profession is able to harvest organic materials from animals or plants, which the Doctor profession might need to produce buffing or healing agents, which then a combat profession can use during pve or pve) Because of this interdependency, players interacted with each other which created socialization. It was not a matter of being forced to interact, it was a community building bi-product of the requirements of the interdenpendency, which allowed for the wonderful communities that so many veterans of early MMOs remember.
However, now that games have removed this interdependency, added community-breaking classes, and added so much non-group content aside from end game, a player can theoretically play an entire MMO from beginning to pre-endgame totally alone. They will never be required to speak to anyone, nor will they ever have to interact with another human being. Now aside from the larger world and lack of a console controller how is this different from a console game?
MMOs were never designed to be this way, they are grand social experiements. The recent lot of MMOs have done nothing to foster communities or institute incentives for socialization. What originaly began as "freedom to not have to socialize" has turned into a scenario where one could be considered strange to want to socialize. Even further though, by instituting this freedom from socialization, aren't we ignoring the other portion of the game community who "do" want the social aspect?
Ok, so I'm lost on the rationale of people in posting? Why not create your own guild of close knit friends? Seriously it is not that hard. I've NEVER been in a guild with more than 50. Why? To many people. Even in a guild that large your going to have groups who play together. Even in guilds I've been in its usually by way of one or two people that are close RL friends we meet a person or two who know each other in RL as friends and we play together. If we want more out of the guild we have we usually leave to another to get what we want. Everything people are complaining about can be solved if your thinking outside the box.
You want a competitive atmosphere, there are games made for that. HoN, LoL for example. Unfortunately you want it out of a static MMO, which doesn't seem viable anymore. FPS although I do not play many anymore used to give awesome team benefits especially if you were playing against a rival group that was equal so you'd win some and lose some. Maybe stick long enough with a game that caters to that inner competitive spirt in you. I know when I get the competitive bug really bad I do not play MMO's as they can not offer the same as other genres of games.
Ok, so I'm lost on the rationale of people in posting? Why not create your own guild of close knit friends? Seriously it is not that hard. I've NEVER been in a guild with more than 50. Why? To many people. Even in a guild that large your going to have groups who play together. Even in guilds I've been in its usually by way of one or two people that are close RL friends we meet a person or two who know each other in RL as friends and we play together. If we want more out of the guild we have we usually leave to another to get what we want. Everything people are complaining about can be solved if your thinking outside the box.
You want a competitive atmosphere, there are games made for that. HoN, LoL for example. Unfortunately you want it out of a static MMO, which doesn't seem viable anymore. FPS although I do not play many anymore used to give awesome team benefits especially if you were playing against a rival group that was equal so you'd win some and lose some. Maybe stick long enough with a game that caters to that inner competitive spirt in you. I know when I get the competitive bug really bad I do not play MMO's as they can not offer the same as other genres of games.
It's not soley the fact that there are hundreds or thousands of people, it's the fact that all those people make the game mean something. If the game exists in a fashion wherein one is able to play from start to finish without any or very little human interaction, neither the game nor anything you do within it means anything. The sense of accomplishment is therefore hollow. The people and the social experiences you have with them are the quintessential aspects that make MMOs unique in the gaming world. Otherwise, there is no difference between an MMO and say God of War 3.
Lastly, I quote Superfluous, "...it all comes down to YOU and what you make of it." If you expect a never-ending developer built thrill ride, your entirely missing the point of MMOs.
So how is a game that has leader boards any different? Starcraft 2, LoL, and HoN(not sure about it as I never have played it but know it will) all have compettive play with posted names so you can gloat. Each has thousands of players that you can compete against and I fail to see why you can't compete against regular opponents I know I have in LoL numerous times.
He is talking about trash talking ingame, Darkfall, AoC, MO, Global Agenda, the list goes on and on. I think the originaly poster needs to get out of the game that doesn't provide what he is looking for instead of placing the MMO genre all into a general category.
And I'll agree with your quote Superfluous. Seems the OP didn't decide for him and once the game started deciding how HIS entertainment was being played out, he failed to compensate and go a different route.
1. To easy. When its possible to max a character in less than a month of casual play then the game is simply too easy.
2. So many people it feels like a single player game. I remember playing text base muds. There weren't many people but you knew them, even your enemies. With too many people, you tend to not bother getting to know any of them.
3. Feels like a job. I mean who in their right mind wants to do daily quests. If you do then I suggest you go out into the real world, get a job and earn some money. Frankly a game is ment to be fun and not like a job.
4. Impossible to compete with those people who either have no life and hence play 24-7 or have far to much money and can buy all the best stuff because they use gold sellers.
5. Money grabbing games companies. MUDs used to be written by normal people and players. These days its simple about how much money they can get out of the customer without really giving a damn about the people or the game. I know they have to make money but greed is evil and hence most game companies these days must have Satan as their CEO !!
Having played a lot of online games for the last 14 years, I'm starting to find them not very enjoyable. Maybe I'm getting old or maybe its because of the reasons above. Ironically the most enjoyable online game I've played recently was Wizard101 (after reading about it here). Whilst its certainly aimed at children, it was never the less fun. It also lacked gold seller and unpleasent people. And when I stopped playing each day I did so having felt that I'd enjoyed my time and didn't come away from the game feeling like I want to kill some annoying twit (yep I'm looking at WoW).
MMOs were built for this. You know why everyone else is complaining about MMORPG nowadays? Yeah, soloers, I'm looking at you, too. What you're lacking is a community. The feeling of being part of something bigger than your avatar. That's what MMOs SHOULD give you, but they entirely missed the memo with the coming of so-called themeparked games. Sure, they give you bigger environments, nicer graphics, but does it fill your social gape? It's the experience you get from making friends, enemies, the works. Anybody who claims to be an avid MMORPG players are just looking for a great time, and I think new (and old) players have the wrong attitude. No game can live up to your 24/7/365 expectations. True MMORPGs are built on communities. As nice and next-gen their graphics might be, or how innovative the gameplay, it all comes down to YOU and what you make of it.
/soapbox off
That's really not the case. There are communities on MMOs, the problem is, there isn't a SINGLE community. Back in the old days when it was a bunch of nerds playing MMOs, everyone had a common experience and common expectations so it was really a common community. Everyone wanted the same things out of the game. Today, however, there are multiple expectations and multiple communities so it's harder to find people who want the same thing you want in the game.
That's not necessarily a bad thing. It means that any reason you play the game, you can probably find other people who share your views if you stick around and look hard enough. That does mean that it takes some work on your part though, everyone you bump into isn't going to be a clone of you, nor should they be.
As MMOs have become mainstream, they have been opened to a massive number of different people with different views. If you think it's ever going to go back to the way it was, think again. It's not, nor should it. The "good old days" are dead, let them rot in peace.
Well, I take that back, I can only speak for myself. I know what I want. If you doubt that, you don;t know me very well.
Agreed. I know precisely what I want in a game, I also realize that I do not represent the majority view and therefore, nobody is going to make a game that caters to me because I'm not representative of a large financial majority. That doesn't stop me from knowing what I want, I just know I'll never get it.
In game politics are great. I loved getting hate tells after ganking someone. Then they bring their friends and camp my spawn, AWESOME. It's so much better when you can interact, when you make friends who drop what they're doing to get you uncamped, when you get people ticked enough TO camp, ahh the gold old days.
Sadly, the trend lately is towards being so politically correct and protecting the feelings of every player, that nobody gets really emotionally involved...just addicted, which isn't nearly as fulfilling or fun.
I'd like to steal this post please, because it's all true. I miss Shadowbane just about every time I log into a MMO now a days. I only played the first year an a half on Mourning, and got distracted by the pretty colors other MMOs were offering. But if a game like SB came along with the open stats and builds and a bigger variety in landscape and equipment I'd be a swollen duck.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
The community. It's not there. I'm not talking about forums, guides, population, etc. No I'm talking about people actually knowing each other in the game.
I miss having enemies. Those guilds and people that you just hate and want to do everything possible to defeat them. In swg, we loved nothing more than raiding another guild's city and clone camping them for a night. It was a constant struggle between us and them. There was meta-gaming, flame wars, propaganda, etc. It was just plain fun. It felt like a real enemy in the real world.
Games now you can't even talk to the other faction in game. There are no player cities, there rarely is open world pvp, there is no sandbox. It doesn't feel like a world. It feels like a game, a souless game.
I realized this while playing wow today. I was in a battleground and was killing people, but I felt no sense of accomplishment. Nothing. In SWG I could spend 20 minutes fighting one person who I'd had a bad relationship with for months and after I killed them it felt like so much more of an accomplishment than if I had killed some no name from a different server who I'd never even talked to.
I really hope some big budget games go back to the virtual world idea. Grinding gear and points is completely boring. I want to make friends and enemies and have an actual impact on the world.
Damn you sound like me, i miss the SWG mechanics, and am Bored silly of all the current mmos, all except EVE.
The question I want to ask is can anyone recommend a good game that is currently up and running? I'm subbed to Vanguard but the tiny population and fairly standard fare quests have got me down. Basically I'm asking this thread because you all seem to be missing the same thing I am the only difference being that I've never found it. I have tried many, many games but none have engaged me long enough to reach end game. I almost feel like subbing to WoW (gods help me) just for the population. So... any remotely good games (not WoW clones) that also have a decent pop? Otherwise I'm just going to have to wait for Rift and GW2.
Comments
My advice go play Darkfall it have what you discribe and want in a mmo, if you can take hardcore gameplay and FFA full loot pvp, Darkfall is perfect then.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I agree. EVE shines in this area.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
Funny you mention that, I get my community fix from this website more than the multiplayer games I play now.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
That makes sense, and I agree to a point, but with regards to MMORGPs specifically, you wont' know that until a developer actually tries it. A lot of things that I think I want haven't been tried at all or havent been done since UO/EQ days. It's hard to know for sure what you want when developers won't even try anything new or won't go back to their roots. There may be a lot of games out now, but the choice is still very limited as far as features are concerned, in my opinion.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I played darkfall and really enjoyed it, but I couldn't find a decent guild to join and the game was way way way way way too much of a grind.
The Official God FAQ
I agree, but life styles change. For you to be in a community you really have to play a lot. You can't have enemies if you log on for an hour a few times a week. You can't really have close online friends(in MMO terms) either since it takes time to grow those relationships. You get enemies playing a few hours every night for months and months fighting with them over and over. You're not going to remember 1 person of 1000s if you don't have continued exposure to them.
Basically, I can't play a MMO like I did when I started. If I could, I wouldn't be married with kids=) I can't sit down for an entire night or afternoon and play a videogame, but thats the only way you'll be a part of a community, seeing the same people over and over. For those that still play MMOs now like they did 10 years ago, all the power to them. But for many of us, its all over until the kids go off to college I guess=) Thats life. Although, I really don't have the drive to foster or make online friends anymore or get overly involved in what happens in a videogame. I'll play and have fun, but what happens after I log off is rather meaningless, since I have much more important things to be concerned with. Making online friends isn't a high priority anymore like it seemed when I was young & single.
It was the same in EQ1. If you got a bad rep as a wizzie, you might as well quit or re-roll because you were not going to get a group.
Personally, I think the genre is at a sort of crossroads for non-Wow players. The last two MMOs I've tried, FE and STO both felt like SP games. Honestly, it is my belief that TOR is going to be a make or break prospect for players like myself. If it stinks, it will be more or less the kiss of death for me as it will be just another crap release among a slew of others.
I'm with you on that one.
Darkfall is NOT there yet but after darkfall 2010 it will be there
Anselm Williams of defiant Order a Darkfall clan
MMOs were built for this. You know why everyone else is complaining about MMORPG nowadays? Yeah, soloers, I'm looking at you, too. What you're lacking is a community. The feeling of being part of something bigger than your avatar. That's what MMOs SHOULD give you, but they entirely missed the memo with the coming of so-called themeparked games. Sure, they give you bigger environments, nicer graphics, but does it fill your social gape? It's the experience you get from making friends, enemies, the works. Anybody who claims to be an avid MMORPG players are just looking for a great time, and I think new (and old) players have the wrong attitude. No game can live up to your 24/7/365 expectations. True MMORPGs are built on communities. As nice and next-gen their graphics might be, or how innovative the gameplay, it all comes down to YOU and what you make of it.
/soapbox off
God, I haven't been able to PvP at all since SWG - I know exactly what you mean. There's something about a rivalry so strong that you will literally chase someone all the way across a planet just to get a /deathblow. In WoW, sure, there's one or two Alliance that annoy the hell out of me on occasion, but without being able to communicate with them or any number of things like we used to be able to do in SWG, it's just a flat, boring and meaningless experience.
Firebrand Art
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
Well, I take that back, I can only speak for myself. I know what I want. If you doubt that, you don;t know me very well.
"Freedom to not have to socialize."
When they removed the need to socialize because some didnt wanted it, all MMOs got stripped of the socializing aspect.
Its easier that way. You want to socialize, find someone else who wants to! LOL, you can still chat and do stuff together!
Just because the game doesnt force everyone by design, doesnt mean you cant "get creative".
The whole community suffered side effects. What you demand is not your personal socialization, is the feeling of community, but to get that, it penetrates into others "bubbles" and many dont want that... There you go... MMO social design 101.
Originally posted by: Interesting
"Freedom to not have to socialize." When they removed the need to socialize because some didnt wanted it, all MMOs got stripped of the socializing aspect. Its easier that way. You want to socialize, find someone else who wants to! LOL, you can still chat and do stuff together! Just because the game doesnt force everyone by design, doesnt mean you cant "get creative". The whole community suffered side effects. What you demand is not your personal socialization, is the feeling of community, but to get that, it penetrates into others "bubbles" and many dont want that... There you go... MMO social design 101.
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I disagree, and this is where the casual (casual in regards to this discussion refers to predominately console gamers) mentality comes into play. Previously, MMOs didn't necessarily have forced socialization, however the game was far more enjoyable and a bit easier if you did socialize. This existed because the professions (not classes) in the game had built-in interdependencies. (Simplistic example, the Scout or Survialist profession is able to harvest organic materials from animals or plants, which the Doctor profession might need to produce buffing or healing agents, which then a combat profession can use during pve or pve) Because of this interdependency, players interacted with each other which created socialization. It was not a matter of being forced to interact, it was a community building bi-product of the requirements of the interdenpendency, which allowed for the wonderful communities that so many veterans of early MMOs remember.
However, now that games have removed this interdependency, added community-breaking classes, and added so much non-group content aside from end game, a player can theoretically play an entire MMO from beginning to pre-endgame totally alone. They will never be required to speak to anyone, nor will they ever have to interact with another human being. Now aside from the larger world and lack of a console controller how is this different from a console game?
MMOs were never designed to be this way, they are grand social experiements. The recent lot of MMOs have done nothing to foster communities or institute incentives for socialization. What originaly began as "freedom to not have to socialize" has turned into a scenario where one could be considered strange to want to socialize. Even further though, by instituting this freedom from socialization, aren't we ignoring the other portion of the game community who "do" want the social aspect?
Ok, so I'm lost on the rationale of people in posting? Why not create your own guild of close knit friends? Seriously it is not that hard. I've NEVER been in a guild with more than 50. Why? To many people. Even in a guild that large your going to have groups who play together. Even in guilds I've been in its usually by way of one or two people that are close RL friends we meet a person or two who know each other in RL as friends and we play together. If we want more out of the guild we have we usually leave to another to get what we want. Everything people are complaining about can be solved if your thinking outside the box.
You want a competitive atmosphere, there are games made for that. HoN, LoL for example. Unfortunately you want it out of a static MMO, which doesn't seem viable anymore. FPS although I do not play many anymore used to give awesome team benefits especially if you were playing against a rival group that was equal so you'd win some and lose some. Maybe stick long enough with a game that caters to that inner competitive spirt in you. I know when I get the competitive bug really bad I do not play MMO's as they can not offer the same as other genres of games.
It's not soley the fact that there are hundreds or thousands of people, it's the fact that all those people make the game mean something. If the game exists in a fashion wherein one is able to play from start to finish without any or very little human interaction, neither the game nor anything you do within it means anything. The sense of accomplishment is therefore hollow. The people and the social experiences you have with them are the quintessential aspects that make MMOs unique in the gaming world. Otherwise, there is no difference between an MMO and say God of War 3.
Lastly, I quote Superfluous, "...it all comes down to YOU and what you make of it." If you expect a never-ending developer built thrill ride, your entirely missing the point of MMOs.
So how is a game that has leader boards any different? Starcraft 2, LoL, and HoN(not sure about it as I never have played it but know it will) all have compettive play with posted names so you can gloat. Each has thousands of players that you can compete against and I fail to see why you can't compete against regular opponents I know I have in LoL numerous times.
He is talking about trash talking ingame, Darkfall, AoC, MO, Global Agenda, the list goes on and on. I think the originaly poster needs to get out of the game that doesn't provide what he is looking for instead of placing the MMO genre all into a general category.
And I'll agree with your quote Superfluous. Seems the OP didn't decide for him and once the game started deciding how HIS entertainment was being played out, he failed to compensate and go a different route.
1. To easy. When its possible to max a character in less than a month of casual play then the game is simply too easy.
2. So many people it feels like a single player game. I remember playing text base muds. There weren't many people but you knew them, even your enemies. With too many people, you tend to not bother getting to know any of them.
3. Feels like a job. I mean who in their right mind wants to do daily quests. If you do then I suggest you go out into the real world, get a job and earn some money. Frankly a game is ment to be fun and not like a job.
4. Impossible to compete with those people who either have no life and hence play 24-7 or have far to much money and can buy all the best stuff because they use gold sellers.
5. Money grabbing games companies. MUDs used to be written by normal people and players. These days its simple about how much money they can get out of the customer without really giving a damn about the people or the game. I know they have to make money but greed is evil and hence most game companies these days must have Satan as their CEO !!
Having played a lot of online games for the last 14 years, I'm starting to find them not very enjoyable. Maybe I'm getting old or maybe its because of the reasons above. Ironically the most enjoyable online game I've played recently was Wizard101 (after reading about it here). Whilst its certainly aimed at children, it was never the less fun. It also lacked gold seller and unpleasent people. And when I stopped playing each day I did so having felt that I'd enjoyed my time and didn't come away from the game feeling like I want to kill some annoying twit (yep I'm looking at WoW).
That's really not the case. There are communities on MMOs, the problem is, there isn't a SINGLE community. Back in the old days when it was a bunch of nerds playing MMOs, everyone had a common experience and common expectations so it was really a common community. Everyone wanted the same things out of the game. Today, however, there are multiple expectations and multiple communities so it's harder to find people who want the same thing you want in the game.
That's not necessarily a bad thing. It means that any reason you play the game, you can probably find other people who share your views if you stick around and look hard enough. That does mean that it takes some work on your part though, everyone you bump into isn't going to be a clone of you, nor should they be.
As MMOs have become mainstream, they have been opened to a massive number of different people with different views. If you think it's ever going to go back to the way it was, think again. It's not, nor should it. The "good old days" are dead, let them rot in peace.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Agreed. I know precisely what I want in a game, I also realize that I do not represent the majority view and therefore, nobody is going to make a game that caters to me because I'm not representative of a large financial majority. That doesn't stop me from knowing what I want, I just know I'll never get it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I'd like to steal this post please, because it's all true. I miss Shadowbane just about every time I log into a MMO now a days. I only played the first year an a half on Mourning, and got distracted by the pretty colors other MMOs were offering. But if a game like SB came along with the open stats and builds and a bigger variety in landscape and equipment I'd be a swollen duck.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Damn you sound like me, i miss the SWG mechanics, and am Bored silly of all the current mmos, all except EVE.
The question I want to ask is can anyone recommend a good game that is currently up and running? I'm subbed to Vanguard but the tiny population and fairly standard fare quests have got me down. Basically I'm asking this thread because you all seem to be missing the same thing I am the only difference being that I've never found it. I have tried many, many games but none have engaged me long enough to reach end game. I almost feel like subbing to WoW (gods help me) just for the population. So... any remotely good games (not WoW clones) that also have a decent pop? Otherwise I'm just going to have to wait for Rift and GW2.
EDIT: Typoes.