Adventure = Getting wind of a beast in need of slaying. Finding some fellows to group as he is a mean one. Gearing up, crafting or buying potions at AH. Tracking the beast and after an intense battle you see he drops the +4 damage sword of uberness. You and your fellows roll and......YES!! you have won the roll.
Instant gratification = Logging in, seeing the +4 damage sword of uberness in the cash shop. Buying the sword with one fell swipe of your Visa card. Going to the center of town to display your +4 damage sword in all its uberness.
So again, it's a vanity issue where there is no compatition. Also, why are you bringing up cash shops?
Cash shops are the natural course of instant gratification as is being seen more all the time. They appear when grinding dailies and achievments becomes to hard for the playerbase.
That's the funny thing about the references to heroics/dailies as 'instant gratitification'. How is it instant if it's limited per day?
Good point. Im not sure what all WOW has in its item shop but I dont think it can be arugued that cash shop items tend to make things easier to get. Deeds in lotro seem to have become to hard for players to do so, the cash shop will be selling tomes so the deeds will be easier to get. Again, maybe not instant but lots easier. Hell, cash shops are the epitomy of instant gratification. Why do the quest when the uber sword can be had for a few dollars?
You seem to have about zero idea of what you are talking about as fact. Like, none.
Really? Plese explain how lotro does not offer tomes to make completing deeds easier then. While your at it tell us how convinience items arnt really a convinience and dont make things easier. Please start with xp potions if you would.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Originally posted by CeridithHeoric dungeons via the dungeon group finder -- another instant gratification tool since it does all of the "work" of assembling a group AND even teleports you right into the dungeon -- allows you to do heroics beyond the daily lockout limit.
It's not "instant" gratification, but it's significantly 'less effort' gratification.
I really do not see how one would consider spamming a chat channels with LFG/LFM to be 'work'. Running to a dungeon is not much of 'work' either. The game does not reward you for any of this stuff so it does not consider it worthwhile either. The real 'work' begins when you actually start fighting as a group to accomplish your goal in a dungeon.
Remember in eq1 when you were actually proud of your character? You had to work at it, now everythings so easy I forget the names of my characters a week after i drop an MMO.
No, I rember in EQ1 where I wasted tons of my time on pointless activites to chase that elsuive "fun". As far as your retention of the world and lore, thats a persioanl issue, you may try reading things in games. You can Challanging games, with out intentional tedium and harsh punishments that do nothing but waste the users time. Games are entertainment, not jobs.
Skinner box abounds.
Just because you do not find something fun, does not mean it is inherently unenjoyable and nobody else can enjoy it.
Believe it or not, there are gamers that actually enjoy a challenge and enjoy the gratification that comes with long term effort. To these people, MMOs are more than just a game, they're a hobby. It's no less of a valid view than your own.
Adventure = Getting wind of a beast in need of slaying. Finding some fellows to group as he is a mean one. Gearing up, crafting or buying potions at AH. Tracking the beast and after an intense battle you see he drops the +4 damage sword of uberness. You and your fellows roll and......YES!! you have won the roll.
Instant gratification = Logging in, seeing the +4 damage sword of uberness in the cash shop. Buying the sword with one fell swipe of your Visa card. Going to the center of town to display your +4 damage sword in all its uberness.
So again, it's a vanity issue where there is no compatition. Also, why are you bringing up cash shops?
Cash shops are the natural course of instant gratification as is being seen more all the time. They appear when grinding dailies and achievments becomes to hard for the playerbase.
That's the funny thing about the references to heroics/dailies as 'instant gratitification'. How is it instant if it's limited per day?
Good point. Im not sure what all WOW has in its item shop but I dont think it can be arugued that cash shop items tend to make things easier to get. Deeds in lotro seem to have become to hard for players to do so, the cash shop will be selling tomes so the deeds will be easier to get. Again, maybe not instant but lots easier. Hell, cash shops are the epitomy of instant gratification. Why do the quest when the uber sword can be had for a few dollars?
You seem to have about zero idea of what you are talking about as fact. Like, none.
Really? Plese explain how lotro does not offer tomes to make completing deeds easier then. While your at it tell us how convinience items arnt really a convinience and dont make things easier. Please start with xp potions if you would.
XP potions were in the game from day one. They are items from the destiney wallet. If you are longing for killing 250 mobs, don't use them. They do indeed make things easer, thats what conveiant means. They do not however nullyfy anything. What you want is more tedioum in your games, they seem to make you feel better. What does it matter to you if others use them?
I would like to ask you guys, why are you not playing games with the features you want. They are there, and have been. Whats the problem?
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
This society is now based on throwaway items and instant gratification. It's a selfish world. Why wouldn't that also be placed in the games we play?
QFT, Thank goodness Ill be dead before we drain the world dry and the last of us die hungry and afraid on a rotting dust ball.
Amen.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Remember in eq1 when you were actually proud of your character? You had to work at it, now everythings so easy I forget the names of my characters a week after i drop an MMO.
No, I rember in EQ1 where I wasted tons of my time on pointless activites to chase that elsuive "fun". As far as your retention of the world and lore, thats a persioanl issue, you may try reading things in games. You can Challanging games, with out intentional tedium and harsh punishments that do nothing but waste the users time. Games are entertainment, not jobs.
Skinner box abounds.
Just because you do not find something fun, does not mean it is inherently unenjoyable and nobody else can enjoy it.
Believe it or not, there are gamers that actually enjoy a challenge and enjoy the gratification that comes with long term effort. To these people, MMOs are more than just a game, they're a hobby. It's no less of a valid view than your own.
Time != challenge. Repedive task != challenge. The things you want are not required for challange. Corps runs are not challange.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Originally posted by CeridithHeoric dungeons via the dungeon group finder -- another instant gratification tool since it does all of the "work" of assembling a group AND even teleports you right into the dungeon -- allows you to do heroics beyond the daily lockout limit.
It's not "instant" gratification, but it's significantly 'less effort' gratification.
I really do not see how one would consider spamming a chat channels with LFG/LFM to be 'work'. Running to a dungeon is not much of 'work' either. The game does not reward you for any of this stuff so it does not consider it worthwhile either. The real 'work' begins when you actually start fighting as a group to accomplish your goal in a dungeon.
Exactly, its just a time waster.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Adventure = Getting wind of a beast in need of slaying. Finding some fellows to group as he is a mean one. Gearing up, crafting or buying potions at AH. Tracking the beast and after an intense battle you see he drops the +4 damage sword of uberness. You and your fellows roll and......YES!! you have won the roll.
Instant gratification = Logging in, seeing the +4 damage sword of uberness in the cash shop. Buying the sword with one fell swipe of your Visa card. Going to the center of town to display your +4 damage sword in all its uberness.
So again, it's a vanity issue where there is no compatition. Also, why are you bringing up cash shops?
Cash shops are the natural course of instant gratification as is being seen more all the time. They appear when grinding dailies and achievments becomes to hard for the playerbase.
That's the funny thing about the references to heroics/dailies as 'instant gratitification'. How is it instant if it's limited per day?
Good point. Im not sure what all WOW has in its item shop but I dont think it can be arugued that cash shop items tend to make things easier to get. Deeds in lotro seem to have become to hard for players to do so, the cash shop will be selling tomes so the deeds will be easier to get. Again, maybe not instant but lots easier. Hell, cash shops are the epitomy of instant gratification. Why do the quest when the uber sword can be had for a few dollars?
You seem to have about zero idea of what you are talking about as fact. Like, none.
Really? Plese explain how lotro does not offer tomes to make completing deeds easier then. While your at it tell us how convinience items arnt really a convinience and dont make things easier. Please start with xp potions if you would.
XP potions were in the game from day one. They are items from the destiney wallet. If you are longing for killing 250 mobs, don't use them. They do indeed make things easer, thats what conveiant means. They do not however nullyfy anything. What you want is more tedioum in your games, they seem to make you feel better. What does it matter to you if others use them?
I would like to ask you guys, why are you not playing games with the features you want. They are there, and have been. Whats the problem?
Thank you. Have a good day.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
This society is now based on throwaway items and instant gratification. It's a selfish world. Why wouldn't that also be placed in the games we play?
QFT, Thank goodness Ill be dead before we drain the world dry and the last of us die hungry and afraid on a rotting dust ball.
Amen.
No kiddin'. It's ok, just sit back and watch them as they destroy themselves. Might get a laugh or 2 out of it...
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
This society is now based on throwaway items and instant gratification. It's a selfish world. Why wouldn't that also be placed in the games we play?
QFT, Thank goodness Ill be dead before we drain the world dry and the last of us die hungry and afraid on a rotting dust ball.
Amen.
No kiddin'. It's ok, just sit back and watch them as they destroy themselves. Might get a laugh or 2 out of it...
This is the attitude I have reluctantly adopted in the past few years. I care greatly for this planet, but have decided to relish in the self-induced mayhem that is already beginning.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
That's because 99% of those 11.5 million players have never played those games, thus can't have formed a proper opinion about those games. I find it laughable that people who have never even played EQ and UO are so dead set convinced that a game like WoW is so superior, when they have absolutely nothing to base their opinion on other than "well 11.5 million other people are playing this game, so this must be better!" Don't make me start using Walmart and McDonalds analogies...
Today's MMOs aren't much better. Yes modern MMOs improved on certain things that the old MMOs had their flaws in, but those same old MMOs also had a significant amount of game mechanics that added value, that are simply ignored in today's MMOs.
Now you are making up numbers. Where did u 99% come from? Don't you know that WOW sucked away lots of EQ players.
I started with UO beta, then EQ for a year. WOW for 3 now .. wow is a MUCH better game. Camping is HORRIBLE in EQ and WOW fixed that. Grinding mobs in EQ is horrible and WOW fixed that.
I don't even have to begin with UO. Unless you like ganging, or clicking a rock for an hour to level up mining, it is NOT a fun game.
Apparently everything I say is going to be taken hyper-literally.
Replace "99%" with "vast majority". The point still remains, that most WoW players have little to no concept of just how the older MMOs were actually like.
And while you have had the experience to form a personal opinion, not everyone else does. Again, I'm not saying that the older MMOs are universally better than the new ones. "Better" is a matter of opinion when it comes to entertainment. What I'm arguing is that most "MMO gamers" of today can't even form an accurate opinion because they don't even have the experience.
My personal opinion is that while on the surface WoW might not look like a grindy game, when you get into the meat and bones of it, the grinding in WoW isn't any better than UO or EQ.
My god are we going to have to go threw this little experiment all over again. Have people already forgotten?
In 2007, a Everquest guild bought a WoW guild, subscriptions and invited them to come and try "Our World". But there were a few bets on the table, the results were quite remarkable.
The bet was, that this flegling new EQ guild has no outside help and must kill one of the starter dragons in 5 months time, or pay for the accounts. The game was so multi-directional and dynamic, they lost their mind in the game. I was a joy to see.
Many of the new friends admitted they didn't quite grasp all the aspects of aggro system.. like social creatures, etc. But it didn't matter... they were having a blast. They failed at the 5 month mark, but they did kill both Nagafin and Lady Vox.
The bet really didn't matter because the Everquest players weren't concerned with the money and probably knew the WoW players would want to buy their account and continue playing anyways.
So:
Everquest and World of Warcraft and not similiar, they are vastly different games. Though, since about 2005 (6 years after EQ's release), SOE did start dumming down Everquest in hopes of chasing the millions Blizzard's new hit was getting, with their 1 year old, World of Warcraft.
So yes, admittingly a good pertion of the patches and content are meant to entice WoW players. And many hate SOE even more for it. The freebee's that some might not even recognise are what finally turned me away
I am willing to bet that the same hold true today. I couldn't pay, but I would certainly play along and show people the ropes and help them kill their first EQ dragon.
Nothing better to do, right? At least you'll be able to experience this classic first hand and form your own opinion. Plus, you might reach that moment where playing is all that matters and you will go weeks without looking at your EXP bar.
If it was like last time, there will be hundreds playing.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Remember in eq1 when you were actually proud of your character? You had to work at it, now everythings so easy I forget the names of my characters a week after i drop an MMO.
No, I rember in EQ1 where I wasted tons of my time on pointless activites to chase that elsuive "fun". As far as your retention of the world and lore, thats a persioanl issue, you may try reading things in games. You can Challanging games, with out intentional tedium and harsh punishments that do nothing but waste the users time. Games are entertainment, not jobs.
Skinner box abounds.
Just because you do not find something fun, does not mean it is inherently unenjoyable and nobody else can enjoy it.
Believe it or not, there are gamers that actually enjoy a challenge and enjoy the gratification that comes with long term effort. To these people, MMOs are more than just a game, they're a hobby. It's no less of a valid view than your own.
Time != challenge. Repedive task != challenge. The things you want are not required for challange. Corps runs are not challange.
Some would argue debating this topic a waste of time.
For me EQ1 was challenging because we played on a no rules pvp server we had to contend with far more than the non pvp servers. You relied on your teammates not only to progress but to survive. The quests were challenging, the raids were challenging, the every day life was challenging.
These days theres no sense of accomplishment. Theres no risk, so the rewards dont feel nearly as good.
Adventure = Getting wind of a beast in need of slaying. Finding some fellows to group as he is a mean one. Gearing up, crafting or buying potions at AH. Tracking the beast and after an intense battle you see he drops the +4 damage sword of uberness. You and your fellows roll and......YES!! you have won the roll.
Instant gratification = Logging in, seeing the +4 damage sword of uberness in the cash shop. Buying the sword with one fell swipe of your Visa card. Going to the center of town to display your +4 damage sword in all its uberness.
So again, it's a vanity issue where there is no compatition. Also, why are you bringing up cash shops?
Cash shops are the natural course of instant gratification as is being seen more all the time. They appear when grinding dailies and achievments becomes to hard for the playerbase.
So, becouse you perionaly have been conditioned that you must do pointless repeditve tasks to get to the "fun stuff", this means that thoes who do not treat games aslife affirming copenents, are lesser people? And any game that atempts to be fun from the onset, and dosen't wate your time, is a lesser game.
I see.
Your versions of cash shops are also, not very prominent in this market, and reak of pure drama and factless sterotyping.
I believe that he is saying that..... "Getting wind of a beast in need of slaying. Finding some fellows to group as he is a mean one. Gearing up, crafting or buying potions at AH. Tracking the beast and after an intense battle you see he drops the +4 damage sword of uberness. You and your fellows roll and......YES!! you have won the roll.
IS the FUN stuff, not the +4 Sword of Ultimate Doom. Furthermore, it really doesn't matter whether it's a vanity item or a game-play altering item... the principle is pretty much the same.
Now for you, you may think that the +4 Sword of Ultimate Doom is the fun stuff and it doesn't matter how you got it. I'm certainly not one to tell you what should be FUN for you.... anymore then you should be trying to define FUN for me.
However, for the folks who really do think that the +4 Sword of Ultimate Doom is the "fun stuff"..... I honestly feel nothing but sadness. The only ones they are really short-changing are themselves.
Remember in eq1 when you were actually proud of your character? You had to work at it, now everythings so easy I forget the names of my characters a week after i drop an MMO.
No, I rember in EQ1 where I wasted tons of my time on pointless activites to chase that elsuive "fun". As far as your retention of the world and lore, thats a persioanl issue, you may try reading things in games. You can Challanging games, with out intentional tedium and harsh punishments that do nothing but waste the users time. Games are entertainment, not jobs.
Skinner box abounds.
Just because you do not find something fun, does not mean it is inherently unenjoyable and nobody else can enjoy it.
Believe it or not, there are gamers that actually enjoy a challenge and enjoy the gratification that comes with long term effort. To these people, MMOs are more than just a game, they're a hobby. It's no less of a valid view than your own.
Time != challenge. Repedive task != challenge. The things you want are not required for challange. Corps runs are not challange.
Some would argue debating this topic a waste of time.
For me EQ1 was challenging because we played on a no rules pvp server we had to contend with far more than the non pvp servers. You relied on your teammates not only to progress but to survive. The quests were challenging, the raids were challenging, the every day life was challenging.
These days theres no sense of accomplishment. Theres no risk, so the rewards dont feel nearly as good.
You are saying this as if games do not feature such things. They do. They also do not need corps runs, or giant timesinks to acomlish it.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Adventure = Getting wind of a beast in need of slaying. Finding some fellows to group as he is a mean one. Gearing up, crafting or buying potions at AH. Tracking the beast and after an intense battle you see he drops the +4 damage sword of uberness. You and your fellows roll and......YES!! you have won the roll.
Instant gratification = Logging in, seeing the +4 damage sword of uberness in the cash shop. Buying the sword with one fell swipe of your Visa card. Going to the center of town to display your +4 damage sword in all its uberness.
So again, it's a vanity issue where there is no compatition. Also, why are you bringing up cash shops?
Cash shops are the natural course of instant gratification as is being seen more all the time. They appear when grinding dailies and achievments becomes to hard for the playerbase.
So, becouse you perionaly have been conditioned that you must do pointless repeditve tasks to get to the "fun stuff", this means that thoes who do not treat games aslife affirming copenents, are lesser people? And any game that atempts to be fun from the onset, and dosen't wate your time, is a lesser game.
I see.
Your versions of cash shops are also, not very prominent in this market, and reak of pure drama and factless sterotyping.
I believe that he is saying that..... "Getting wind of a beast in need of slaying. Finding some fellows to group as he is a mean one. Gearing up, crafting or buying potions at AH. Tracking the beast and after an intense battle you see he drops the +4 damage sword of uberness. You and your fellows roll and......YES!! you have won the roll.
IS the FUN stuff, not the +4 Sword of Ultimate Doom. Furthermore, it really doesn't matter whether it's a vanity item or a game-play altering item... the principle is pretty much the same.
Now for you, you may think that the +4 Sword of Ultimate Doom is the fun stuff and it doesn't matter how you got it. I'm certainly not one to tell you what should be FUN for you.... anymore then you should be trying to define FUN for me.
However, for the folks who really do think that the +4 Sword of Ultimate Doom is the "fun stuff"..... I honestly feel nothing but sadness. The only ones they are really short-changing are themselves.
I never said a +4 sword was the fun stuff. Im not a loot chaser. Games also do not lack the things you discribe, this is the falicy im trying to point in in the using of the term "instant gratification". Its a flase statement.
There is no game on the market that fits the description.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Remember in eq1 when you were actually proud of your character? You had to work at it, now everythings so easy I forget the names of my characters a week after i drop an MMO.
No, I rember in EQ1 where I wasted tons of my time on pointless activites to chase that elsuive "fun". As far as your retention of the world and lore, thats a persioanl issue, you may try reading things in games. You can Challanging games, with out intentional tedium and harsh punishments that do nothing but waste the users time. Games are entertainment, not jobs.
Skinner box abounds.
lol, stop teh trollz. *rollz eyez*
Because fun to you = loot. You said so yourself, right up there^.
No wonder you didn't have fun, you don't set your goal on the prize, you set them around your friends whom you have fun with, while attempting something ultr-challenging.
You can't chase "fun" (maaa more hot pockets)... it is the fun you have while doing your quests. It was about going where you were going, to only end up somewhere else, because half your party got jumped by something
Everquest was the unexpected!
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Remember in eq1 when you were actually proud of your character? You had to work at it, now everythings so easy I forget the names of my characters a week after i drop an MMO.
No, I rember in EQ1 where I wasted tons of my time on pointless activites to chase that elsuive "fun". As far as your retention of the world and lore, thats a persioanl issue, you may try reading things in games. You can Challanging games, with out intentional tedium and harsh punishments that do nothing but waste the users time. Games are entertainment, not jobs.
Skinner box abounds.
Just because you do not find something fun, does not mean it is inherently unenjoyable and nobody else can enjoy it.
Believe it or not, there are gamers that actually enjoy a challenge and enjoy the gratification that comes with long term effort. To these people, MMOs are more than just a game, they're a hobby. It's no less of a valid view than your own.
Time != challenge. Repedive task != challenge. The things you want are not required for challange. Corps runs are not challange.
Some would argue debating this topic a waste of time.
For me EQ1 was challenging because we played on a no rules pvp server we had to contend with far more than the non pvp servers. You relied on your teammates not only to progress but to survive. The quests were challenging, the raids were challenging, the every day life was challenging.
These days theres no sense of accomplishment. Theres no risk, so the rewards dont feel nearly as good.
You are saying this as if games do not feature such things. They do. They also do not need corps runs, or giant timesinks to acomlish it.
Like I said before, imagine how the world would be if we could all be great musicians, or pro ball players just by buying a pill that sped up the process. The whole point is that youve invested the time and effort to get there, thats the price you pay for greatness.
You seem to think that you've earned the right to be great without working for it.
i totally agree with you, cash shops are just a way for the game creators to combat their low population so they can break even. I say, you either make a good mmo and properly advertise it (within reason because we all know there are way too many ad's out there for really horrible games) or you don't bother with it at all and help keep the bad game inventory down lol
Remember in eq1 when you were actually proud of your character? You had to work at it, now everythings so easy I forget the names of my characters a week after i drop an MMO.
No, I rember in EQ1 where I wasted tons of my time on pointless activites to chase that elsuive "fun". As far as your retention of the world and lore, thats a persioanl issue, you may try reading things in games. You can Challanging games, with out intentional tedium and harsh punishments that do nothing but waste the users time. Games are entertainment, not jobs.
Skinner box abounds.
Just because you do not find something fun, does not mean it is inherently unenjoyable and nobody else can enjoy it.
Believe it or not, there are gamers that actually enjoy a challenge and enjoy the gratification that comes with long term effort. To these people, MMOs are more than just a game, they're a hobby. It's no less of a valid view than your own.
Time != challenge. Repedive task != challenge. The things you want are not required for challange. Corps runs are not challange.
Some would argue debating this topic a waste of time.
For me EQ1 was challenging because we played on a no rules pvp server we had to contend with far more than the non pvp servers. You relied on your teammates not only to progress but to survive. The quests were challenging, the raids were challenging, the every day life was challenging.
These days theres no sense of accomplishment. Theres no risk, so the rewards dont feel nearly as good.
You are saying this as if games do not feature such things. They do. They also do not need corps runs, or giant timesinks to acomlish it.
Like I said before, imagine how the world would be if we could all be great musicians, or pro ball players just by buying a pill that sped up the process. The whole point is that youve invested the time and effort to get there, thats the price you pay for greatness.
You seem to think that you've earned the right to be great without working for it.
That's expressely the point of video games like NBA2K10 and such with a video game I can be great without earning it, if I wanted to spend as much time working on it as the pro's do wouldn't I just go and do it in real life?
I think too many people op included are equating alot of time spent with adventure, what one considers to be an adventure is subjective I enjoy mmo's but have to be honest and say I don't like to month long grinds we are usually forced to go through for one trinket.
I don't use cash shops, as far as spending actual money in them but I like the system Turbine employs sub and get points for the item shop, I'll use those points so I'm not against them either. But I just don't like that people on here seem to equate months of grinding for items with adventure and the suggestion that if components are added to cut down on the time folks were forced to spend grinding it somehow effects them.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
@jaxsundane, see the thing is, you have to repititously play the nba 2k to be good at it and beat other people. How fair would it be if you lets say preordered it, and they injected 2 years of playing experience into your head. What would be the point of doing anything in life if you could just pay for the experience instead of actually having to put the effort into it?
Adventure = Getting wind of a beast in need of slaying. Finding some fellows to group as he is a mean one. Gearing up, crafting or buying potions at AH. Tracking the beast and after an intense battle you see he drops the +4 damage sword of uberness. You and your fellows roll and......YES!! you have won the roll.
Instant gratification = Logging in, seeing the +4 damage sword of uberness in the cash shop. Buying the sword with one fell swipe of your Visa card. Going to the center of town to display your +4 damage sword in all its uberness.
So again, it's a vanity issue where there is no compatition. Also, why are you bringing up cash shops?
Cash shops are the natural course of instant gratification as is being seen more all the time. They appear when grinding dailies and achievments becomes to hard for the playerbase.
So, becouse you perionaly have been conditioned that you must do pointless repeditve tasks to get to the "fun stuff", this means that thoes who do not treat games aslife affirming copenents, are lesser people? And any game that atempts to be fun from the onset, and dosen't wate your time, is a lesser game.
I see.
Your versions of cash shops are also, not very prominent in this market, and reak of pure drama and factless sterotyping.
I believe that he is saying that..... "Getting wind of a beast in need of slaying. Finding some fellows to group as he is a mean one. Gearing up, crafting or buying potions at AH. Tracking the beast and after an intense battle you see he drops the +4 damage sword of uberness. You and your fellows roll and......YES!! you have won the roll.
IS the FUN stuff, not the +4 Sword of Ultimate Doom. Furthermore, it really doesn't matter whether it's a vanity item or a game-play altering item... the principle is pretty much the same.
Now for you, you may think that the +4 Sword of Ultimate Doom is the fun stuff and it doesn't matter how you got it. I'm certainly not one to tell you what should be FUN for you.... anymore then you should be trying to define FUN for me.
However, for the folks who really do think that the +4 Sword of Ultimate Doom is the "fun stuff"..... I honestly feel nothing but sadness. The only ones they are really short-changing are themselves.
I never said a +4 sword was the fun stuff. Im not a loot chaser. Games also do not lack the things you discribe, this is the falicy im trying to point in in the using of the term "instant gratification". Its a flase statement.
There is no game on the market that fits the description.
Right, it's just semantics. Instant gratification has come to mean that developers are simply making the games easier and more accessible, in my opinion. But there are cash shops which offer items for sale which is about as instant as it gets. There's nothing wrong with players who enjoy easy accessible games. But there are also players who feel some cash shops are against the spirit of the games. They see it as a form of cheating, basically.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
@jaxsundane, see the thing is, you have to repititously play the nba 2k to be good at it and beat other people. How fair would it be if you lets say preordered it, and they injected 2 years of playing experience into your head. What would be the point of doing anything in life if you could just pay for the experience instead of actually having to put the effort into it?
To see the later part of the game?
You DO know that tons of people "cheat" in SP games so that they can go through the whole thing, right?
Like I said before, imagine how the world would be if we could all be great musicians, or pro ball players just by buying a pill that sped up the process. The whole point is that youve invested the time and effort to get there, thats the price you pay for greatness.
You seem to think that you've earned the right to be great without working for it.
Equating playing video GAMES with greatness is just SILLY. Video games are ENTERTAINMENT, NOT pro sports. People don't like to have their entertainment like a job. You don't require a PhD to understand a movie (and those do never have that big of a box office) for the same reasons.
You don't earn "rights" for anything in a video game. It is designed to give the player a fun time. Downing the LK is fun, and it gives an illusion of achievement. Please don't equate that with writing a scientific paper, or winning the NBA.
But, can you imagine if Mythic would've stayed on top of DAOC? Because Warhammer was a complete fail. My god, how could mythic get their DAOC 2 wrong, it would've surpassed WoW had they done 4 realms, tones of classes and one massive frontier..!
WINNER!
Yeah that acctually makes WAR the biggest wow clone ever. They destroyed everything they knew that worked so well to attempted a wow game with more pvp (not better or new just more). Might make it the worst development fail ever in the history of mmos.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Comments
Really? Plese explain how lotro does not offer tomes to make completing deeds easier then. While your at it tell us how convinience items arnt really a convinience and dont make things easier. Please start with xp potions if you would.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
I really do not see how one would consider spamming a chat channels with LFG/LFM to be 'work'. Running to a dungeon is not much of 'work' either. The game does not reward you for any of this stuff so it does not consider it worthwhile either. The real 'work' begins when you actually start fighting as a group to accomplish your goal in a dungeon.
Just because you do not find something fun, does not mean it is inherently unenjoyable and nobody else can enjoy it.
Believe it or not, there are gamers that actually enjoy a challenge and enjoy the gratification that comes with long term effort. To these people, MMOs are more than just a game, they're a hobby. It's no less of a valid view than your own.
XP potions were in the game from day one. They are items from the destiney wallet. If you are longing for killing 250 mobs, don't use them. They do indeed make things easer, thats what conveiant means. They do not however nullyfy anything. What you want is more tedioum in your games, they seem to make you feel better. What does it matter to you if others use them?
I would like to ask you guys, why are you not playing games with the features you want. They are there, and have been. Whats the problem?
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Amen.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Time != challenge. Repedive task != challenge. The things you want are not required for challange. Corps runs are not challange.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Exactly, its just a time waster.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Thank you. Have a good day.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
No kiddin'. It's ok, just sit back and watch them as they destroy themselves. Might get a laugh or 2 out of it...
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
funny I find fun and adventure in almost every game I play,,, its called using your imagination brutal concept I know!
guess that is what we are losing nowadays eh?
This is the attitude I have reluctantly adopted in the past few years. I care greatly for this planet, but have decided to relish in the self-induced mayhem that is already beginning.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
My god are we going to have to go threw this little experiment all over again. Have people already forgotten?
In 2007, a Everquest guild bought a WoW guild, subscriptions and invited them to come and try "Our World". But there were a few bets on the table, the results were quite remarkable.
The bet was, that this flegling new EQ guild has no outside help and must kill one of the starter dragons in 5 months time, or pay for the accounts. The game was so multi-directional and dynamic, they lost their mind in the game. I was a joy to see.
Many of the new friends admitted they didn't quite grasp all the aspects of aggro system.. like social creatures, etc. But it didn't matter... they were having a blast. They failed at the 5 month mark, but they did kill both Nagafin and Lady Vox.
The bet really didn't matter because the Everquest players weren't concerned with the money and probably knew the WoW players would want to buy their account and continue playing anyways.
So:
Everquest and World of Warcraft and not similiar, they are vastly different games. Though, since about 2005 (6 years after EQ's release), SOE did start dumming down Everquest in hopes of chasing the millions Blizzard's new hit was getting, with their 1 year old, World of Warcraft.
So yes, admittingly a good pertion of the patches and content are meant to entice WoW players. And many hate SOE even more for it. The freebee's that some might not even recognise are what finally turned me away
I am willing to bet that the same hold true today. I couldn't pay, but I would certainly play along and show people the ropes and help them kill their first EQ dragon.
Nothing better to do, right? At least you'll be able to experience this classic first hand and form your own opinion. Plus, you might reach that moment where playing is all that matters and you will go weeks without looking at your EXP bar.
If it was like last time, there will be hundreds playing.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Some would argue debating this topic a waste of time.
For me EQ1 was challenging because we played on a no rules pvp server we had to contend with far more than the non pvp servers. You relied on your teammates not only to progress but to survive. The quests were challenging, the raids were challenging, the every day life was challenging.
These days theres no sense of accomplishment. Theres no risk, so the rewards dont feel nearly as good.
I believe that he is saying that..... "Getting wind of a beast in need of slaying. Finding some fellows to group as he is a mean one. Gearing up, crafting or buying potions at AH. Tracking the beast and after an intense battle you see he drops the +4 damage sword of uberness. You and your fellows roll and......YES!! you have won the roll.
IS the FUN stuff, not the +4 Sword of Ultimate Doom. Furthermore, it really doesn't matter whether it's a vanity item or a game-play altering item... the principle is pretty much the same.
Now for you, you may think that the +4 Sword of Ultimate Doom is the fun stuff and it doesn't matter how you got it. I'm certainly not one to tell you what should be FUN for you.... anymore then you should be trying to define FUN for me.
However, for the folks who really do think that the +4 Sword of Ultimate Doom is the "fun stuff"..... I honestly feel nothing but sadness. The only ones they are really short-changing are themselves.
You are saying this as if games do not feature such things. They do. They also do not need corps runs, or giant timesinks to acomlish it.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I never said a +4 sword was the fun stuff. Im not a loot chaser. Games also do not lack the things you discribe, this is the falicy im trying to point in in the using of the term "instant gratification". Its a flase statement.
There is no game on the market that fits the description.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
lol, stop teh trollz. *rollz eyez*
Because fun to you = loot. You said so yourself, right up there^.
No wonder you didn't have fun, you don't set your goal on the prize, you set them around your friends whom you have fun with, while attempting something ultr-challenging.
You can't chase "fun" (maaa more hot pockets)... it is the fun you have while doing your quests. It was about going where you were going, to only end up somewhere else, because half your party got jumped by something
Everquest was the unexpected!
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Like I said before, imagine how the world would be if we could all be great musicians, or pro ball players just by buying a pill that sped up the process. The whole point is that youve invested the time and effort to get there, thats the price you pay for greatness.
You seem to think that you've earned the right to be great without working for it.
i totally agree with you, cash shops are just a way for the game creators to combat their low population so they can break even. I say, you either make a good mmo and properly advertise it (within reason because we all know there are way too many ad's out there for really horrible games) or you don't bother with it at all and help keep the bad game inventory down lol
That's expressely the point of video games like NBA2K10 and such with a video game I can be great without earning it, if I wanted to spend as much time working on it as the pro's do wouldn't I just go and do it in real life?
I think too many people op included are equating alot of time spent with adventure, what one considers to be an adventure is subjective I enjoy mmo's but have to be honest and say I don't like to month long grinds we are usually forced to go through for one trinket.
I don't use cash shops, as far as spending actual money in them but I like the system Turbine employs sub and get points for the item shop, I'll use those points so I'm not against them either. But I just don't like that people on here seem to equate months of grinding for items with adventure and the suggestion that if components are added to cut down on the time folks were forced to spend grinding it somehow effects them.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
@jaxsundane, see the thing is, you have to repititously play the nba 2k to be good at it and beat other people. How fair would it be if you lets say preordered it, and they injected 2 years of playing experience into your head. What would be the point of doing anything in life if you could just pay for the experience instead of actually having to put the effort into it?
Right, it's just semantics. Instant gratification has come to mean that developers are simply making the games easier and more accessible, in my opinion. But there are cash shops which offer items for sale which is about as instant as it gets. There's nothing wrong with players who enjoy easy accessible games. But there are also players who feel some cash shops are against the spirit of the games. They see it as a form of cheating, basically.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
To see the later part of the game?
You DO know that tons of people "cheat" in SP games so that they can go through the whole thing, right?
Like I said before, imagine how the world would be if we could all be great musicians, or pro ball players just by buying a pill that sped up the process. The whole point is that youve invested the time and effort to get there, thats the price you pay for greatness.
You seem to think that you've earned the right to be great without working for it.
Equating playing video GAMES with greatness is just SILLY. Video games are ENTERTAINMENT, NOT pro sports. People don't like to have their entertainment like a job. You don't require a PhD to understand a movie (and those do never have that big of a box office) for the same reasons.
You don't earn "rights" for anything in a video game. It is designed to give the player a fun time. Downing the LK is fun, and it gives an illusion of achievement. Please don't equate that with writing a scientific paper, or winning the NBA.
Yeah that acctually makes WAR the biggest wow clone ever. They destroyed everything they knew that worked so well to attempted a wow game with more pvp (not better or new just more). Might make it the worst development fail ever in the history of mmos.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine