we go on frigate roams and covop roams al the time. Its not too hard and we have many noobie corps. Granted we arent holding space atm, but we did and just did fine for a while.
PURgE is one of the very few exceptions to skill point elitism, hats off to you sir.
Currently Playing: EVE Online Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Originally posted by DoktorTeufel Originally posted by Malcanis
(2) I can tell you for a fact that those "SP requirements" are not nearly so absolute as you assume. They are a first-pass filter for unsolicited applications. Personal recommendations are but one way in which they are more porous than you think.
For a fact? I am aware of your character, and that you're an experienced EVE player. Unless you've been in a significant cross-section of nullsec corporations, however, this statement is nothing more than speculative, hardly fact.
I can attest to this fact as someone who was recruiter for a 0.0 corp for a while. None is going to sit down and count the exact amount of SP a player happens to have in combat skills.
It's a blanket statement to give the applicant a clue on what type of people the corp is looking for. Just like a RL job add might list certain degrees as necessary but in reality it's just a recommendation and what matters are the job interview. If you don't have the degree it might take a bit more effort to get to the interview but it's not impossible.
One thing to think about when looking for a corp is to not only look at it from your side, "what can this corp do for me". But also look at it from the other side, "what can I do for this corp". A complete newb in a 0.0 corp might be a future asset but at the time he joins he is going to be a big liability who is more likely to get himself and other members killed than anything else.
I think you underestimate the work needed to bring a complete newb to 0.0. It's not just answering a few questions here and there. Most corps don't have the time nor the dedication to do it. This is why specialized newbie training corps exist. They have the time and dedication to bring the newb to the point where he can be a productive member of a normal 0.0 corp.
I have had experience with having total newbs join without getting the dedicated support needed. A few strong ones will pull through and become good members but most will quickly crash and burn, possibly ending with rage quits and similar. It's just not worth it to most corporations to deal with that.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
(1) By your own account, the "Jaunty cap" will get you in to the other 5% of nullsec corps. And you only need 1.
Maybe, maybe not. Having a gnarly 'tude makes little difference if the right people can't appreciate it, so this comes down to sheer luck in making good connections.
Originally posted by Malcanis
(2) I can tell you for a fact that those "SP requirements" are not nearly so absolute as you assume. They are a first-pass filter for unsolicited applications. Personal recommendations are but one way in which they are more porous than you think.
For a fact? I am aware of your character, and that you're an experienced EVE player. Unless you've been in a significant cross-section of nullsec corporations, however, this statement is nothing more than speculative, hardly fact.
As long as we're speculating, I'll posit that personal recommendations are one of the only ways in which they're porous. Knowing the right people trumps everything, but that doesn't factor into this, because a vast majority of respective rookies don't know the right people... nor should they, in most cases.
Originally posted by Malcanis
(3) Why does it have to be nullsec?
It doesn't absolutely have to be. When you add pirates and mercenaries to the equation, though, the "SP requirement" and "rookie-friendly" numbers would probably worsen. Perhaps WH corps would be easier to join; that, I don't know. Carebear corporations don't count, because if people enjoy watching paint dry while chatting online, they can fire up MSN and slap a coat of hi-gloss on their computer room door, saving themselves $15 a month in subscription fees.
I admit, it is fair to point to E-UNI and RvB as alternatives. It takes weeks or months to get into E-UNI, however, and I'm not sure about RvB, so I can't comment. I need to put an alt in there to see for myself, though.
Originally posted by Malcanis
(4) No-one said it would be easy, only that it was possible
And I've never said EVE is a bad game, that it should be easy, or that people are mean and bad for setting SP requirements. I believe they've been forced into it because of the way the game works.
Accepting promising (not "just anyone") rookies on a regular basis instead of only veterans means fewer HACs and other powerful ships in your fleets. And if that happens, corporations who accept only veterans will have an edge over your fleets. Thus, only a very few exceptions are allowed to pass these "porous SP filters" (major exception being someone very focused on one type of powerful ship).
Originally posted by Malcanis
(5) There's nothing to stop new players forming their own alliance and getting out there, like Goonswarm did once upon a time, and TEST ALLIANCE did a few months ago. They were in Syndicate within a month of forming.
Nothing other than the fact that Goonswarm and Test Alliance Please Ignore had large, popular nerd websites to draw their membership from. In other words, nothing other than a pre-existing network of thousands of people.
Yes, if you have hundreds of friends start the game with you, in that case your alliance CAN matter. This is true.
Your reply is nothing but a sequence of admissions of exceptions to the rules you stated in such absolute terms in your OP. The simple fact is that new or newish players do go to 0.0 and do get in to PvP corps all the time. Is it as easy to do so for them as it is for high SP players? No. Are they likely to be as effective? Again, no. But they can and they do and I know it's possible for someone who isn't really all that good at PvP and started the game with no connections of any influence (I persuaded a couple of friends to start after I started playing) to get in to 0.0 because I did it.
I joined what I now realise was an almost totally carebear corp about a month after I subscribed, and got in to 0.0 and started getting some experience. I lost ships whilst getting that experience, but ships can be replaced. I suppose you would derisively label me "cannonfodder", but I didn't really care. What I did do was talk to the few people in the corp and the alliance who were interested in something other than mining and started to make friends and contacts.
A couple of months later, I and one of those contacts co-founded our own 0.0 PvP corp thank you very much (I had about 7-8M SP at the time IIRC), recruited a few guys and we moved to the drone regions as tenents. With no intention to stay, mark you, we just wanted to get some space to make some ISK and pick up some kills. I will say this: we had no high SP guys. We couldn't fly anything T2. We didn't have any capital ships. All we really had was a strong ethos that 1 corp member was worth more to the co-CEOs than any alliance, a great time in corp chat and a rule that everybody fights. After a month we joined Curse Alliance and joined in the invasion of Feythabolis in summer 2007. We had just progressed far enough to fly Stealth Bombers, and even a couple of dictor pilots, and we spent most of the campaign trying to harass the enemy in their own system - Digital Renegades were way better than us in every respect and we learned a fuck of a lot fighting them.
Meanwhile I and the co-CEO continued recruiting, and our criteria for recruiting were: Must be subscribed, must have a good attitude, must have the nuts to apply at our 0.0 office. One recruit particularly stood out, as I invited him to corp on the basis of a post he wrote on Eve-O that seemed to me to show exactly the spirit we were looking for. He'd been in game for 9 days, and the first thing I tasked him with doing was travelling 25 jumps through 0.0 to the station in drone space were we still had access (our "londlords" hadn't noticed we'd gone or stopped paying rent!) to get a jump clone. He died 3 times doing it. When he did it, I gave him a fitted rifter and a set of +2s, advised him on how to set up an ISK making base in hi-sec using mission agents, then told him to get his ass in to Curse with the rest of us. He went on to become my closest friend in EvE, and eventually he got me in to the corp and alliance I'm in now.
So dont tell me that it can't be done, because that's how I know for a fact it can be done: I did it.
A new player will have to take some risks, he will have to work his ass off learning and making contacts, he will have to accept that he's going to trade ship losses for game experience, he'll have to accept that he's not likely to stroll in to a premier established PvP corp in his first week, but work to prove himself, but there's nothing at all to stop a new player getting in to 0.0, fighting and having a grand old time except people like yourself telling him it cant be done.
So dont tell me that it can't be done, because that's how I know for a fact it can be done: I did it.
I've never said that. I've never even implied it. This isn't a black-and-white issue, and it's not about what's 100% possible or 100% impossible. My main point from the beginning of this thread has been, "You can do it, BUT: there's a catch. This is that catch."
Your arguments haven't been completely straightforward. You used Goonfleet and Test Alliance Please Ignore as examples of how newbies can forge their own empire, without bothering to mention that both of these alliances had hundreds of pilots who shared an out-of-game community beforehand. Pretty big damn catch, don't you think? Yeah, I notice you didn't rebut this in your last response.
That's my problem. Some of you veterans tell people what they can do, and leave it at that others are worse, and present candy-coated nonsense. When it comes to MMORPGs, what's involved in accomplishing something and the odds you'll face matter.
The number-one biggest concern amongst nearly all prospective EVE pilots is, "But I'll never be able to catch up in skill points." Does this mean they shouldn't play the game? No, but the statement does have merit, in more ways than I think even you realize. They usually say this for the wrong reasons (i.e., the strength of a single PvP ship), but that doesn't make it untrue.
Veterans can simply purchase alts with any number of skills. This means if a rookie spends time skilling up for blockade runners, freighters, industrialists, or even CovOps, it's a waste of time as far as "qualifying" for a serious PvP corp. Everyone and their dog in a serious PvP corp either has these skills themselves, or an alt who does. In fact, alliances get in trouble rather frequently for account sharing such utility characters.
What does that mean? It means if you want to PvP, that is all you will be training for. For a WHILE. Because really, all that matters is whether you can fly a combat ship during a given fleet op.
And when a corporation expects you to either be at a certain advanced level of training, or to get there as quickly as you can as a major aspect of your membership, then clearly "catching up" is a factor.
Currently Playing: EVE Online Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Goons/Dreddit are a great example of how the SP gap can be overcome. Of course a player will have to be smarter / better connected / more charismatic / $OUT_OF_GAME_ADVANTAGED than normal to overcome the in-game advantages that veteran players will have. Duh! No one is arguing otherwise. The point is that new players can leverage those advantages. Skillpoints are not an unsurpassable barrier as so many people assert, it is possible, and new players do do it all the time.
You're coming perilously close to saying "Well sure, but what about new players who are lazy, dumb, unlikable, unimaginative, and have no initiative, patience, team spirit or community assocations, what about THEM?"
Well you're right: they're pretty much boned. But fuck those guys tbh, because EVE is a competitive game and that means that it's possible to lose. Too bad, soo sad that lazy stupid assholes wont get anywhere, eh? I wont shed a tear for them and I dont see why you would either.
But really all it takes is to reverse pretty much any one of those negative characteristics and a new player can survive in EVE. The only real hurdle is deciding to get out there and try.
EDIT: When when you see some of the mentally inept and socially sub-normal people that lead or are prominent in some 0.0 alliances, really one can only conclude that the bar is set pretty low. Take heart - if those stupid assholes can do it, anyone can.
EDIT: When when you see some of the mentally inept and socially sub-normal people that lead or are prominent in some 0.0 alliances, really one can only conclude that the bar is set pretty low. Take heart - if those stupid assholes can do it, anyone can.
A lot of those asses-in-top-hats are where they are because of advantages that aren't afforded to new players, such as being buddies with a bunch of other asses-in-top-hats, having played the game for years on end, or possessing massive SP pools. This actually goes straight to the heart of why I disparage SP minimums: I can pretty much guarantee you that given a choice between only one or the other, your average nullsec alliance will take a butthat with lots of SP who knows how to PvP over even the jauntiest rookie.
Mouth-breathers post "55m sp pvp cap pilot lkn 4 00 crp lol" threads in the Alliance and Corporation Recruitment Center, and they receive blue streaks of replies from well-known, established nullsec alliances. If I were to post a thorough, enthusiastic, intelligent thread with my in-game goals listed as bullet points but as a player with only 3m SP I'd get probably two replies, one saying, "join eve university lol", and the other an invitation to a fly-by-nite, one-man carebear corp.
Now, does this mean a new player can never succeed? No. Isn't it true that large quantities of butthats manage to succeed in every MMORPG known to mankind? Absolutely, no question. But EVE is different from other MMORPGs.
My point is that intelligence, attitude and initiative are advantages, but that SP count is still the a far greater advantage in general unless you are friends with the right people, in which case you can be a dullard with low SP and still be given opportunities (and this, too, adds to the asses-in-top-hats problem).
You may feel free to disagree. I don't claim that my opinion is the best or the only correct opinion, but I believe it has merit. So do some, perhaps even most aspects of your arguments. A good debater can argue both sides of an issue; I'm pretty sure I could argue yours, if I were so inclined. As it is, I have to stick with mine.
Currently Playing: EVE Online Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
I think we're approaching the same point from different perspectives, and that which you see as a "con" I see as a "pro". The problem you have is only really a problem in games that dont have any content except end-game, and EVE is definitely not in that category.
And in the last analysis, I thank God that there's no way to grind for SP in EVE, and there's no way I'll ever change my mind about that.
If it was possible to grind sp in eve the game itself would be too boring, the most active reaps the benefits while the normal workers and schoolies will have a greater disadvantage due to the socially withdrawn people who sits home playing it all the time. Just like wow, if i was a new player and tried it then it would take me months upon months with training, grinding and questing to get to their lvl. Then once i am there i would have to aim for alot of gearscore just to be able to advance, here comes grinding again. Its not like anyone will take you to icc just because you are lvl 80. 5 k gs needed, therefore grinding for the socially withdrawn is far easier and that would make eve a game of people who can't even talk to others in power while people who are socially active yet don't have more then 3-4 hours a day since they got school and work will have to work to promote the socially withdrawn. Sorry for brining that expression forth so much but thats what happened at wow. People who got no life run icc while all the others have to grind mobs which is terribly boring. This is just to prove sp grinding means a wow copy and at that point lvling could be implanted and after that follow a special storyline which is the same for every player no matter if you are in the alliance or the goon hordes!
Originally posted by DoktorTeufel Mouth-breathers post "55m sp pvp cap pilot lkn 4 00 crp lol" threads in the Alliance and Corporation Recruitment Center, and they receive blue streaks of replies from well-known, established nullsec alliances. If I were to post a thorough, enthusiastic, intelligent thread with my in-game goals listed as bullet points but as a player with only 3m SP I'd get probably two replies, one saying, "join eve university lol", and the other an invitation to a fly-by-nite, one-man carebear corp.
Do you really find it strange that someone who has played for 3-4 years get more corp invitations than someone who has only played for 2-3 months? When a corp asks for skillpoints it's generally not the SP per se that's important (the ability to field certain things like capital ships can be important) but the experience that come with these skillpoints. If a new player bought a high SP char he would still likely be weeded out at the interview or shortly after he has joined when it becomes obvious how little he knows.
I think you are too focused on these "famous" corps and alliances. The reason many of these are famous is because they where very selective in recruitment, only selecting the best of the best or at least people they could trust. And while I as a 78m sp semi famous player will get more invitations than you there are still many famous corporations that I would not be allowed into.
I would also say it's unlikely that these famous corporations will give you the best gaming experience. IMHO you are much more likely to enjoy the game in a smaller and less famous corporation.
If you are hellbent on getting into a "famous" corp then you need to prove yourself first. To do that you need get rid of your dislike of using a corp as a stepping stone. There are many corps that don't mind being used as one. And who knows, you might find the stepping stone to be so good that you will never leave it.
Personally I joined my first 0.0 pvp corp when I had around the same amount of SP as you have now. They where not famous or anything but did have some skilled players. 8 months later I became a director. After a year I joined a famous 0.0 corp for 4 months but quit that one when I was invited back to become CO-CEO of my first corp. During the time I spent in that corp we did some really amazing things like being one of first to effectively use remote-repair battleship squads and forcing a NAP with Triumvirate.
While I have flown in different corps since then I have always flown with the players I met in that corp. Today we are mostly split up and several members have gone to join some really famous corps like Reikoku and Invicta, the reason they could do so where not because of how many SP they happened to have but because of how they proved themselves as member of that smallish, non-famous, newbie recruiting corp.
So please give these non-famous corps a chance. You won't regret it.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
Do you really find it strange that someone who has played for 3-4 years get more corp invitations than someone who has only played for 2-3 months? When a corp asks for skillpoints it's generally not the SP per se that's important (the ability to field certain things like capital ships can be important) but the experience that come with these skillpoints.
If a new player bought a high SP char he would still likely be weeded out at the interview or shortly after he has joined when it becomes obvious how little he knows.
Are you argueing that even if this 3-4 year player started a brand new character he would get the same invites from these corps? I doubt it.
It has something todo with the SP aswell. You are trying to seperate it what untrue. They want the high(5-10m min) SP aswell.
-- "Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
Originally posted by Devalon Originally posted by Mcgreag
Do you really find it strange that someone who has played for 3-4 years get more corp invitations than someone who has only played for 2-3 months? When a corp asks for skillpoints it's generally not the SP per se that's important (the ability to field certain things like capital ships can be important) but the experience that come with these skillpoints. If a new player bought a high SP char he would still likely be weeded out at the interview or shortly after he has joined when it becomes obvious how little he knows. Are you argueing that even if this 3-4 year player started a brand new character he would get the same invites from these corps? I doubt it. It has something todo with the SP aswell. You are trying to seperate it what untrue. They want the high(5-10m min) SP aswell. No but I am arguing that most will choose an experienced player with low SP over an inexperienced one with high SP. Of course an experienced player with high SP are optimal.
As for a minimum limit of 5-10m sp I think a certain amount of SP is needed to live in 0.0, not to pvp, you can do that very early but to actually live in deep 0.0 without constant support. You for example more or less need to be able to solo the available pve content. Before you can do that you are better of with a corp that bases out of high/lowsec and do 0.0 ops.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
Just a note: I'm not actually a new player with 3m SP. I'm a returning player with three characters on three accounts, two well into the eight-digit SP range. I was simply using that 3m SP figure as an example. I don't have any 70m SP+ characters, though, that's for sure.
Also, while I don't discount the assertion that truly elite alliances have high SP minimums for a reason, I don't agree that those are the only alliances I'm taking into account. There are nearly two dozen sovereignty-holding alliances (or -renting, or just "access", and also some exceptions, like PURgE) represented on my list now, some large, some small. Some of the small ones do have 15-20m SP requirements.
Please note that I'm not at all concerned about "access to nullsec resources" or "being bad***" or anything of that nature. None of that matters, as EVE is a terrible game without other players to enjoy the game with.
The actual reason SP barriers concern me is that there are, in fact, some pretty fun (and interesting, and intelligent) people out there in these corporations and alliances. I know this from personal experience. Widespread SP barriers vastly reduce the odds of rookies meeting these people before they meet incompetents, bores, brainless griefers or imbeciles. They're going to meet all of those sorts anyway, of course.
Believe it or not, my concern is for EVE and new player influx, not for myself. I think you can see just from this thread that I'm stubborn as a hog and very persistent, which virtually guarantees at least modest success in my EVE career going forward. I'm not worried about me.
I believe EVE loses a fair number of potentially awesome pilots due to various aspects of the game that, at least to newcomers, make it seem extraordinarily newbie-unfriendly. There are people out there who do their homework. They aren't stupid, and shortly after starting the game, they can see how long it takes to train all the nickel-and-diming core skills that do little more than act as pre-requisites to stop your ship from completely sucking. (CCP themselves have stated they aren't happy with the current skill system, but that they know they can't change it now.) And they can see all those SP minimums on the Alliance and Recruitment Center, too.
I'm a returning player. I've recovered most of my old EVE knowledge now, like some guy with amnesia in a movie, yet I also have a fresh perspective to work with. This is a semi-unique combination, though I know there are others like me.
Currently Playing: EVE Online Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Originally posted by DoktorTeufel I believe EVE loses a fair number of potentially awesome pilots due to various aspects of the game that, at least to newcomers, make it seem extraordinarily newbie-unfriendly. There are people out there who do their homework. They aren't stupid, and shortly after starting the game, they can see how long it takes to train all the nickel-and-diming core skills that do little more than act as pre-requisites to stop your ship from completely sucking. (CCP themselves have stated they aren't happy with the current skill system, but that they know they can't change it now.) And they can see all those SP minimums on the Alliance and Recruitment Center, too.
While there are a few skills that CCP have stated they are not happy with not a single one of those are in list you linked. The skills that CCP would like to reform are learning skills and nothing else.
Also that list include skills that are anything but basic. All the Jump Drive skills for example, those are highly specialized skills.
Support skills might have been a better title but again there are skills that are neither basic nor support skills on that list. Repair Drone Operation and Remote Hull Repair Systems for example are not support skills because they don't give some general bonus but enable the use of a very specific item. Nor can they be said to be basic because the items in question are items that most players will never use.
And back to the corps and alliances. If it's just access than there much more than 2 dozen, 100+ would be more accurate. And I'll keep to my assertion that it's not a good idea to move into deep 0.0 the first thing you do when you join the game.
The wast majority of players do not have what it takes to make an early jump into 0.0 and the few that do will find a way, if they don't then they did not actually have what it takes. For all the others the gradual way where you learn the game at the speed of gaining your SP is a much better path.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
While there are a few skills that CCP have stated they are not happy with not a single one of those are in list you linked. The skills that CCP would like to reform are learning skills and nothing else.
I'm well aware of the Learning skills debate, but that's not what I'm referring to. In the past, CCP have said that they're unhappy with the entire skill point system that they'd like to do a major revamp, but realize it's impossible now. I don't have a source for this, so you may take it or leave it.
You're absolutely right, not all of the skills on that list are basic. Only some of them are, but I couldn't find anything more specific. There are still quite a few universal or might-as-well-be-universal skills on there, though.
Let me offer a better (perhaps the best) example of nickel-and-diming, then: The skills necessary to un-nerf Small Hybrid Turrets for, say, a Taranis. By un-nerf, I mean unlocking the ability to fit competitive turrets and utilize them in a competitive fashion.
Interceptor
Gunnery
Small Hybrid Turret
Small Blaster Specialization
Weapon Upgrades
Advanced Weapon Upgrades
Controlled Bursts
Surgical Strike
Motion Prediction
Rapid Firing
Sharpshooter
Trajectory Analysis
This is what I mean by nickel-and-diming. It's great when you have the universals done, but it's annoying when they aren't and you're new. A character with balanced attributes (and low-ish Charisma), all Learning skills to 5 for Rank 1 and 4 for Rank 3 (these take almost a month and a half in and of themselves, by the way), and +4 implants would require over 30 days to train all these skills to L4, or L5 when it's a prerequisite for the L4s.
Training all basic and core skills to L4/L5 probably takes a month and half. Training the skills needed to fit and properly utilize the other modules you'll need on your Taranis will take a month or more, certainly.
What this all adds up to is that it takes five months to be sitting in an un-nerfed Taranis, and more likely six months, since rookies won't have +4 implants right off the bat, it might take them a while to get the proper skill plan together, they might pick a bad remap at first, etc.
It does not take six months to learn to fly a Taranis properly, unless the person in question is an idiot, and Interceptors require more player skill to fly properly than many much larger ships do. And by the way, during this time period they won't be mining, researching and producing, scanning down sites, training for haulers or freighters, trading (well they can trade, but they'll be very limited), running a corporation, or really anything other than training for this one ship.
Currently Playing: EVE Online Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
CCP should stop giving Eve mouth to mouth and let it die. Once it dies, you can release a new game with less bugs, modern engine and less broken features. Everywhere I go, everything I do in Eve makes me think that.
There is a reason why companies stop making updates and expansions at some point and start making a whole new sequel. Eve seems like a zombie to me. A living dead.
They should drop this WoD and Dust nonsense and start making Eve 2.0 full-time. F*** the fans! Chances are they will play the game anyway.
A statement from CCP that "We're making a sequel to Eve from clean slate" would be hundred-times better news than any Incarna-rubbish.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
While there are a few skills that CCP have stated they are not happy with not a single one of those are in list you linked. The skills that CCP would like to reform are learning skills and nothing else.
I'm well aware of the Learning skills debate, but that's not what I'm referring to. In the past, CCP have said that they're unhappy with the entire skill point system — that they'd like to do a major revamp, but realize it's impossible now. I don't have a source for this, so you may take it or leave it.
You're absolutely right, not all of the skills on that list are basic. Only some of them are, but I couldn't find anything more specific. There are still quite a few universal or might-as-well-be-universal skills on there, though.
Let me offer a better (perhaps the best) example of nickel-and-diming, then: The skills necessary to un-nerf Small Hybrid Turrets for, say, a Taranis. By un-nerf, I mean unlocking the ability to fit competitive turrets and utilize them in a competitive fashion.
Interceptor
Gunnery
Small Hybrid Turret
Small Blaster Specialization
Weapon Upgrades
Advanced Weapon Upgrades
Controlled Bursts
Surgical Strike
Motion Prediction
Rapid Firing
Sharpshooter
Trajectory Analysis
This is what I mean by nickel-and-diming. It's great when you have the universals done, but it's annoying when they aren't and you're new. A character with balanced attributes (and low-ish Charisma), all Learning skills to 5 for Rank 1 and 4 for Rank 3 (these take almost a month and a half in and of themselves, by the way), and +4 implants would require over 30 days to train all these skills to L4, or L5 when it's a prerequisite for the L4s.
Training all basic and core skills to L4/L5 probably takes a month and half. Training the skills needed to fit and properly utilize the other modules you'll need on your Taranis will take a month or more, certainly.
What this all adds up to is that it takes five months to be sitting in an un-nerfed Taranis, and more likely six months, since rookies won't have +4 implants right off the bat, it might take them a while to get the proper skill plan together, they might pick a bad remap at first, etc.
It does not take six months to learn to fly a Taranis properly, unless the person in question is an idiot, and Interceptors require more player skill to fly properly than many much larger ships do. And by the way, during this time period they won't be mining, researching and producing, scanning down sites, training for haulers or freighters, trading (well they can trade, but they'll be very limited), running a corporation, or really anything other than training for this one ship.
I'll sign that. All but the fact that Taranis isn't a DPS ship but an Interceptor. DPS role is filled by Assault Frigates.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Why am I doing this? Because I am dead-tired of people saying "You can PvP in 2-6 weeks!" which is a statement with a HUGE catch and any number of strings attached. The same people who say that sort of thing turn around and support massive SP minimum requirements to join their own veteran corporations.
Or some other can say...
""You can only PvP after 4-6 months!" which is a statement with a HUGE catch and any number of strings attached."
You're comparing unrelated numbers. The amount of SP it takes to train to fly a rifter with t2 and best named mods is only a few weeks. You can certainly get some good fights in a rifter in low sec. Learning how to win is a whole other story.
The number of SP a corp chooses as a recruiting minimum is completely arbitrary. I can move one of my characters 0.0 and have him start a corp requiring 100 million SP to join. What would that have to do with the price of tea in China?
I think you're placing too much emphasis on the numbers and forgetting you're supposed to be having fun. Who cares if you not a member of a well known 0.0 alliance. What does that mean in the grander scheme of things? I've been playing Eve for 18 months (15 spent in low sec) and have been in about 6 different corps and you've probably never heard of a single one of them. Yet I still managed to accumulate almost 900 kills so far and I'm terrible at Eve. Point being, there are plenty of fights to be had belonging to relatively unknown corps with low SP.
And the for the record I belong to a low sec pirate corp that has a 0 SP minimum. We review all new recruits at the end of their first month. If they've proven worth a damn we keep them otherwise they are booted.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
While there are a few skills that CCP have stated they are not happy with not a single one of those are in list you linked. The skills that CCP would like to reform are learning skills and nothing else.
I'm well aware of the Learning skills debate, but that's not what I'm referring to. In the past, CCP have said that they're unhappy with the entire skill point system that they'd like to do a major revamp, but realize it's impossible now. I don't have a source for this, so you may take it or leave it.
Well I have read literately every devpost made (yes I spend more times reading the forums than playing the game ) and talked to some in person at the Fanfest and I have never seen that expressed.
Personally I think you are most likely misinterpreting a comment on learning skills to incorporate all skills. Selective reading, seeing what you want to see can happen very easily if you are not careful.
So quote or it didn't happen.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
""You can only PvP after 4-6 months!" which is a statement with a HUGE catch and any number of strings attached."
The "catch" and "strings" I'm referring to don't change at all, even if you phrase the statement that way. The facts remain constant; it's really a matter of how each side spin-doctors those facts.
Both my original statement and your alteration of it refer to the same truth in different ways. Ultimately, it takes 6-12 months to properly fly an advanced ship, PERIOD. Also, a wide assortment of corporations list the ability to fly those advanced ships as a prerequisite for membership, PERIOD.
Those are verifiable facts that cannot be disputed in any way, unless you're delusional.
You may interpret those facts in a positive light, arguing that players can enjoy flying lesser ships for months on end, that they won't mind focusing on just one goal for a long period of time, and that they shouldn't have too much trouble finding a rookie-friendly corporation.
My argument, of course, is that the above is an overly enthusiastic, candy-coated exaggeration. Training for HACs and related skills for six months while flying only a limited number of lesser ships can get boring, and being unable to join an interesting corporation or alliance because your e-member isn't large enough yet can be frustrating.
Currently Playing: EVE Online Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
You know, apart from picking Teufel's datamining apart and argue about how valuable a complete noob is (as a prominent example), the key point that fortifies Teufel's position immensely is the fact that there is agreement on a 'new player being a liability to serious 0.0 corps'.
By admitting this it is intrinsicly already proven that the common catchphrases to newbies are terribly underrating the enormous difficulties a PvP interested newbie is encountering when starting off into PvP. The general EvE-public likes to sustain the rosy image of EvE being the epitome of 'you can start right off PvPing and if you're smart you'll have a blast and get better'; Which by all means isn't true.
New players should be confronted, keeping in mind that they are used to regular MMORPGs, with the fact that if they want to have fun-pvp and be successful in what they do they _need_ to learn a lot and expect at least 8 to 12 weeks training time until they are reaching a position that's somewhere near a chance against the regular PvP-joe. And I'm not talking about 0.0 and getting into PvP corps.
Originally posted by Meridion The general EvE-public likes to sustain the rosy image of EvE being the epitome of 'you can start right off PvPing and if you're smart you'll have a blast and get better'; Which by all means isn't true.
A while back, I made a trial account and before the trial expired, I had +100 kills on that char.
Dammit, someone should have told me that such things 'isn't true by all means', I was doing it wrong!
Seriously, what is this thread about? Is it a 'I am doing something everyone know it does not work for obvious reasons, look I have proof' thread type? Just in case I am missing something here...
Its not the SP's that matter its the ships you can fly, and the persons attitude towards the game.
Scouting,Dictors,ceptors can all be trained rather fast if anything you can bypass all the low TII ships and fly a LR battle cruiser in no time with hardly any SP's a lot of the blocks rely on support fleets and bringing in noobs willing to fly those ships and do those jobs.
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PURgE is one of the very few exceptions to skill point elitism, hats off to you sir.
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None is going to sit down and count the exact amount of SP a player happens to have in combat skills.
It's a blanket statement to give the applicant a clue on what type of people the corp is looking for. Just like a RL job add might list certain degrees as necessary but in reality it's just a recommendation and what matters are the job interview. If you don't have the degree it might take a bit more effort to get to the interview but it's not impossible.
One thing to think about when looking for a corp is to not only look at it from your side, "what can this corp do for me". But also look at it from the other side, "what can I do for this corp". A complete newb in a 0.0 corp might be a future asset but at the time he joins he is going to be a big liability who is more likely to get himself and other members killed than anything else.
I think you underestimate the work needed to bring a complete newb to 0.0. It's not just answering a few questions here and there. Most corps don't have the time nor the dedication to do it. This is why specialized newbie training corps exist. They have the time and dedication to bring the newb to the point where he can be a productive member of a normal 0.0 corp.
I have had experience with having total newbs join without getting the dedicated support needed. A few strong ones will pull through and become good members but most will quickly crash and burn, possibly ending with rage quits and similar. It's just not worth it to most corporations to deal with that.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
Your reply is nothing but a sequence of admissions of exceptions to the rules you stated in such absolute terms in your OP. The simple fact is that new or newish players do go to 0.0 and do get in to PvP corps all the time. Is it as easy to do so for them as it is for high SP players? No. Are they likely to be as effective? Again, no. But they can and they do and I know it's possible for someone who isn't really all that good at PvP and started the game with no connections of any influence (I persuaded a couple of friends to start after I started playing) to get in to 0.0 because I did it.
I joined what I now realise was an almost totally carebear corp about a month after I subscribed, and got in to 0.0 and started getting some experience. I lost ships whilst getting that experience, but ships can be replaced. I suppose you would derisively label me "cannonfodder", but I didn't really care. What I did do was talk to the few people in the corp and the alliance who were interested in something other than mining and started to make friends and contacts.
A couple of months later, I and one of those contacts co-founded our own 0.0 PvP corp thank you very much (I had about 7-8M SP at the time IIRC), recruited a few guys and we moved to the drone regions as tenents. With no intention to stay, mark you, we just wanted to get some space to make some ISK and pick up some kills. I will say this: we had no high SP guys. We couldn't fly anything T2. We didn't have any capital ships. All we really had was a strong ethos that 1 corp member was worth more to the co-CEOs than any alliance, a great time in corp chat and a rule that everybody fights. After a month we joined Curse Alliance and joined in the invasion of Feythabolis in summer 2007. We had just progressed far enough to fly Stealth Bombers, and even a couple of dictor pilots, and we spent most of the campaign trying to harass the enemy in their own system - Digital Renegades were way better than us in every respect and we learned a fuck of a lot fighting them.
Meanwhile I and the co-CEO continued recruiting, and our criteria for recruiting were: Must be subscribed, must have a good attitude, must have the nuts to apply at our 0.0 office. One recruit particularly stood out, as I invited him to corp on the basis of a post he wrote on Eve-O that seemed to me to show exactly the spirit we were looking for. He'd been in game for 9 days, and the first thing I tasked him with doing was travelling 25 jumps through 0.0 to the station in drone space were we still had access (our "londlords" hadn't noticed we'd gone or stopped paying rent!) to get a jump clone. He died 3 times doing it. When he did it, I gave him a fitted rifter and a set of +2s, advised him on how to set up an ISK making base in hi-sec using mission agents, then told him to get his ass in to Curse with the rest of us. He went on to become my closest friend in EvE, and eventually he got me in to the corp and alliance I'm in now.
So dont tell me that it can't be done, because that's how I know for a fact it can be done: I did it.
A new player will have to take some risks, he will have to work his ass off learning and making contacts, he will have to accept that he's going to trade ship losses for game experience, he'll have to accept that he's not likely to stroll in to a premier established PvP corp in his first week, but work to prove himself, but there's nothing at all to stop a new player getting in to 0.0, fighting and having a grand old time except people like yourself telling him it cant be done.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
I've never said that. I've never even implied it. This isn't a black-and-white issue, and it's not about what's 100% possible or 100% impossible. My main point from the beginning of this thread has been, "You can do it, BUT: there's a catch. This is that catch."
Your arguments haven't been completely straightforward. You used Goonfleet and Test Alliance Please Ignore as examples of how newbies can forge their own empire, without bothering to mention that both of these alliances had hundreds of pilots who shared an out-of-game community beforehand. Pretty big damn catch, don't you think? Yeah, I notice you didn't rebut this in your last response.
That's my problem. Some of you veterans tell people what they can do, and leave it at that others are worse, and present candy-coated nonsense. When it comes to MMORPGs, what's involved in accomplishing something and the odds you'll face matter.
The number-one biggest concern amongst nearly all prospective EVE pilots is, "But I'll never be able to catch up in skill points." Does this mean they shouldn't play the game? No, but the statement does have merit, in more ways than I think even you realize. They usually say this for the wrong reasons (i.e., the strength of a single PvP ship), but that doesn't make it untrue.
Veterans can simply purchase alts with any number of skills. This means if a rookie spends time skilling up for blockade runners, freighters, industrialists, or even CovOps, it's a waste of time as far as "qualifying" for a serious PvP corp. Everyone and their dog in a serious PvP corp either has these skills themselves, or an alt who does. In fact, alliances get in trouble rather frequently for account sharing such utility characters.
What does that mean? It means if you want to PvP, that is all you will be training for. For a WHILE. Because really, all that matters is whether you can fly a combat ship during a given fleet op.
And when a corporation expects you to either be at a certain advanced level of training, or to get there as quickly as you can as a major aspect of your membership, then clearly "catching up" is a factor.
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Goons/Dreddit are a great example of how the SP gap can be overcome. Of course a player will have to be smarter / better connected / more charismatic / $OUT_OF_GAME_ADVANTAGED than normal to overcome the in-game advantages that veteran players will have. Duh! No one is arguing otherwise. The point is that new players can leverage those advantages. Skillpoints are not an unsurpassable barrier as so many people assert, it is possible, and new players do do it all the time.
You're coming perilously close to saying "Well sure, but what about new players who are lazy, dumb, unlikable, unimaginative, and have no initiative, patience, team spirit or community assocations, what about THEM?"
Well you're right: they're pretty much boned. But fuck those guys tbh, because EVE is a competitive game and that means that it's possible to lose. Too bad, soo sad that lazy stupid assholes wont get anywhere, eh? I wont shed a tear for them and I dont see why you would either.
But really all it takes is to reverse pretty much any one of those negative characteristics and a new player can survive in EVE. The only real hurdle is deciding to get out there and try.
EDIT: When when you see some of the mentally inept and socially sub-normal people that lead or are prominent in some 0.0 alliances, really one can only conclude that the bar is set pretty low. Take heart - if those stupid assholes can do it, anyone can.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
A lot of those asses-in-top-hats are where they are because of advantages that aren't afforded to new players, such as being buddies with a bunch of other asses-in-top-hats, having played the game for years on end, or possessing massive SP pools. This actually goes straight to the heart of why I disparage SP minimums: I can pretty much guarantee you that given a choice between only one or the other, your average nullsec alliance will take a butthat with lots of SP who knows how to PvP over even the jauntiest rookie.
Mouth-breathers post "55m sp pvp cap pilot lkn 4 00 crp lol" threads in the Alliance and Corporation Recruitment Center, and they receive blue streaks of replies from well-known, established nullsec alliances. If I were to post a thorough, enthusiastic, intelligent thread with my in-game goals listed as bullet points but as a player with only 3m SP I'd get probably two replies, one saying, "join eve university lol", and the other an invitation to a fly-by-nite, one-man carebear corp.
Now, does this mean a new player can never succeed? No. Isn't it true that large quantities of butthats manage to succeed in every MMORPG known to mankind? Absolutely, no question. But EVE is different from other MMORPGs.
My point is that intelligence, attitude and initiative are advantages, but that SP count is still the a far greater advantage in general unless you are friends with the right people, in which case you can be a dullard with low SP and still be given opportunities (and this, too, adds to the asses-in-top-hats problem).
You may feel free to disagree. I don't claim that my opinion is the best or the only correct opinion, but I believe it has merit. So do some, perhaps even most aspects of your arguments. A good debater can argue both sides of an issue; I'm pretty sure I could argue yours, if I were so inclined. As it is, I have to stick with mine.
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I think we're approaching the same point from different perspectives, and that which you see as a "con" I see as a "pro". The problem you have is only really a problem in games that dont have any content except end-game, and EVE is definitely not in that category.
And in the last analysis, I thank God that there's no way to grind for SP in EVE, and there's no way I'll ever change my mind about that.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
If it was possible to grind sp in eve the game itself would be too boring, the most active reaps the benefits while the normal workers and schoolies will have a greater disadvantage due to the socially withdrawn people who sits home playing it all the time. Just like wow, if i was a new player and tried it then it would take me months upon months with training, grinding and questing to get to their lvl. Then once i am there i would have to aim for alot of gearscore just to be able to advance, here comes grinding again. Its not like anyone will take you to icc just because you are lvl 80. 5 k gs needed, therefore grinding for the socially withdrawn is far easier and that would make eve a game of people who can't even talk to others in power while people who are socially active yet don't have more then 3-4 hours a day since they got school and work will have to work to promote the socially withdrawn. Sorry for brining that expression forth so much but thats what happened at wow. People who got no life run icc while all the others have to grind mobs which is terribly boring. This is just to prove sp grinding means a wow copy and at that point lvling could be implanted and after that follow a special storyline which is the same for every player no matter if you are in the alliance or the goon hordes!
If a new player bought a high SP char he would still likely be weeded out at the interview or shortly after he has joined when it becomes obvious how little he knows.
I think you are too focused on these "famous" corps and alliances. The reason many of these are famous is because they where very selective in recruitment, only selecting the best of the best or at least people they could trust. And while I as a 78m sp semi famous player will get more invitations than you there are still many famous corporations that I would not be allowed into.
I would also say it's unlikely that these famous corporations will give you the best gaming experience. IMHO you are much more likely to enjoy the game in a smaller and less famous corporation.
If you are hellbent on getting into a "famous" corp then you need to prove yourself first. To do that you need get rid of your dislike of using a corp as a stepping stone. There are many corps that don't mind being used as one. And who knows, you might find the stepping stone to be so good that you will never leave it.
Personally I joined my first 0.0 pvp corp when I had around the same amount of SP as you have now. They where not famous or anything but did have some skilled players. 8 months later I became a director. After a year I joined a famous 0.0 corp for 4 months but quit that one when I was invited back to become CO-CEO of my first corp. During the time I spent in that corp we did some really amazing things like being one of first to effectively use remote-repair battleship squads and forcing a NAP with Triumvirate.
While I have flown in different corps since then I have always flown with the players I met in that corp. Today we are mostly split up and several members have gone to join some really famous corps like Reikoku and Invicta, the reason they could do so where not because of how many SP they happened to have but because of how they proved themselves as member of that smallish, non-famous, newbie recruiting corp.
So please give these non-famous corps a chance. You won't regret it.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
Are you argueing that even if this 3-4 year player started a brand new character he would get the same invites from these corps? I doubt it.
It has something todo with the SP aswell. You are trying to seperate it what untrue. They want the high(5-10m min) SP aswell.
--
"Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
Do you really find it strange that someone who has played for 3-4 years get more corp invitations than someone who has only played for 2-3 months? When a corp asks for skillpoints it's generally not the SP per se that's important (the ability to field certain things like capital ships can be important) but the experience that come with these skillpoints.
If a new player bought a high SP char he would still likely be weeded out at the interview or shortly after he has joined when it becomes obvious how little he knows.
Are you argueing that even if this 3-4 year player started a brand new character he would get the same invites from these corps? I doubt it.
It has something todo with the SP aswell. You are trying to seperate it what untrue. They want the high(5-10m min) SP aswell.
No but I am arguing that most will choose an experienced player with low SP over an inexperienced one with high SP. Of course an experienced player with high SP are optimal.
As for a minimum limit of 5-10m sp I think a certain amount of SP is needed to live in 0.0, not to pvp, you can do that very early but to actually live in deep 0.0 without constant support. You for example more or less need to be able to solo the available pve content. Before you can do that you are better of with a corp that bases out of high/lowsec and do 0.0 ops.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
Just find a goon like gang, then you don't need sp you could just gank the rats and other players with superior numbers:)
Just a note: I'm not actually a new player with 3m SP. I'm a returning player with three characters on three accounts, two well into the eight-digit SP range. I was simply using that 3m SP figure as an example. I don't have any 70m SP+ characters, though, that's for sure.
Also, while I don't discount the assertion that truly elite alliances have high SP minimums for a reason, I don't agree that those are the only alliances I'm taking into account. There are nearly two dozen sovereignty-holding alliances (or -renting, or just "access", and also some exceptions, like PURgE) represented on my list now, some large, some small. Some of the small ones do have 15-20m SP requirements.
Please note that I'm not at all concerned about "access to nullsec resources" or "being bad***" or anything of that nature. None of that matters, as EVE is a terrible game without other players to enjoy the game with.
The actual reason SP barriers concern me is that there are, in fact, some pretty fun (and interesting, and intelligent) people out there in these corporations and alliances. I know this from personal experience. Widespread SP barriers vastly reduce the odds of rookies meeting these people before they meet incompetents, bores, brainless griefers or imbeciles. They're going to meet all of those sorts anyway, of course.
Believe it or not, my concern is for EVE and new player influx, not for myself. I think you can see just from this thread that I'm stubborn as a hog and very persistent, which virtually guarantees at least modest success in my EVE career going forward. I'm not worried about me.
I believe EVE loses a fair number of potentially awesome pilots due to various aspects of the game that, at least to newcomers, make it seem extraordinarily newbie-unfriendly. There are people out there who do their homework. They aren't stupid, and shortly after starting the game, they can see how long it takes to train all the nickel-and-diming core skills that do little more than act as pre-requisites to stop your ship from completely sucking. (CCP themselves have stated they aren't happy with the current skill system, but that they know they can't change it now.) And they can see all those SP minimums on the Alliance and Recruitment Center, too.
I'm a returning player. I've recovered most of my old EVE knowledge now, like some guy with amnesia in a movie, yet I also have a fresh perspective to work with. This is a semi-unique combination, though I know there are others like me.
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Also that list include skills that are anything but basic. All the Jump Drive skills for example, those are highly specialized skills.
Support skills might have been a better title but again there are skills that are neither basic nor support skills on that list. Repair Drone Operation and Remote Hull Repair Systems for example are not support skills because they don't give some general bonus but enable the use of a very specific item. Nor can they be said to be basic because the items in question are items that most players will never use.
And back to the corps and alliances. If it's just access than there much more than 2 dozen, 100+ would be more accurate. And I'll keep to my assertion that it's not a good idea to move into deep 0.0 the first thing you do when you join the game.
The wast majority of players do not have what it takes to make an early jump into 0.0 and the few that do will find a way, if they don't then they did not actually have what it takes. For all the others the gradual way where you learn the game at the speed of gaining your SP is a much better path.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
I'm well aware of the Learning skills debate, but that's not what I'm referring to. In the past, CCP have said that they're unhappy with the entire skill point system that they'd like to do a major revamp, but realize it's impossible now. I don't have a source for this, so you may take it or leave it.
You're absolutely right, not all of the skills on that list are basic. Only some of them are, but I couldn't find anything more specific. There are still quite a few universal or might-as-well-be-universal skills on there, though.
Let me offer a better (perhaps the best) example of nickel-and-diming, then: The skills necessary to un-nerf Small Hybrid Turrets for, say, a Taranis. By un-nerf, I mean unlocking the ability to fit competitive turrets and utilize them in a competitive fashion.
This is what I mean by nickel-and-diming. It's great when you have the universals done, but it's annoying when they aren't and you're new. A character with balanced attributes (and low-ish Charisma), all Learning skills to 5 for Rank 1 and 4 for Rank 3 (these take almost a month and a half in and of themselves, by the way), and +4 implants would require over 30 days to train all these skills to L4, or L5 when it's a prerequisite for the L4s.
Training all basic and core skills to L4/L5 probably takes a month and half. Training the skills needed to fit and properly utilize the other modules you'll need on your Taranis will take a month or more, certainly.
What this all adds up to is that it takes five months to be sitting in an un-nerfed Taranis, and more likely six months, since rookies won't have +4 implants right off the bat, it might take them a while to get the proper skill plan together, they might pick a bad remap at first, etc.
It does not take six months to learn to fly a Taranis properly, unless the person in question is an idiot, and Interceptors require more player skill to fly properly than many much larger ships do. And by the way, during this time period they won't be mining, researching and producing, scanning down sites, training for haulers or freighters, trading (well they can trade, but they'll be very limited), running a corporation, or really anything other than training for this one ship.
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CCP should stop giving Eve mouth to mouth and let it die. Once it dies, you can release a new game with less bugs, modern engine and less broken features. Everywhere I go, everything I do in Eve makes me think that.
There is a reason why companies stop making updates and expansions at some point and start making a whole new sequel. Eve seems like a zombie to me. A living dead.
They should drop this WoD and Dust nonsense and start making Eve 2.0 full-time. F*** the fans! Chances are they will play the game anyway.
A statement from CCP that "We're making a sequel to Eve from clean slate" would be hundred-times better news than any Incarna-rubbish.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I'll sign that. All but the fact that Taranis isn't a DPS ship but an Interceptor. DPS role is filled by Assault Frigates.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
notsureifserious.jpg
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Or some other can say...
""You can only PvP after 4-6 months!" which is a statement with a HUGE catch and any number of strings attached."
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
You're comparing unrelated numbers. The amount of SP it takes to train to fly a rifter with t2 and best named mods is only a few weeks. You can certainly get some good fights in a rifter in low sec. Learning how to win is a whole other story.
The number of SP a corp chooses as a recruiting minimum is completely arbitrary. I can move one of my characters 0.0 and have him start a corp requiring 100 million SP to join. What would that have to do with the price of tea in China?
I think you're placing too much emphasis on the numbers and forgetting you're supposed to be having fun. Who cares if you not a member of a well known 0.0 alliance. What does that mean in the grander scheme of things? I've been playing Eve for 18 months (15 spent in low sec) and have been in about 6 different corps and you've probably never heard of a single one of them. Yet I still managed to accumulate almost 900 kills so far and I'm terrible at Eve. Point being, there are plenty of fights to be had belonging to relatively unknown corps with low SP.
And the for the record I belong to a low sec pirate corp that has a 0 SP minimum. We review all new recruits at the end of their first month. If they've proven worth a damn we keep them otherwise they are booted.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Personally I think you are most likely misinterpreting a comment on learning skills to incorporate all skills. Selective reading, seeing what you want to see can happen very easily if you are not careful.
So quote or it didn't happen.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
The "catch" and "strings" I'm referring to don't change at all, even if you phrase the statement that way. The facts remain constant; it's really a matter of how each side spin-doctors those facts.
Both my original statement and your alteration of it refer to the same truth in different ways. Ultimately, it takes 6-12 months to properly fly an advanced ship, PERIOD. Also, a wide assortment of corporations list the ability to fly those advanced ships as a prerequisite for membership, PERIOD.
Those are verifiable facts that cannot be disputed in any way, unless you're delusional.
You may interpret those facts in a positive light, arguing that players can enjoy flying lesser ships for months on end, that they won't mind focusing on just one goal for a long period of time, and that they shouldn't have too much trouble finding a rookie-friendly corporation.
My argument, of course, is that the above is an overly enthusiastic, candy-coated exaggeration. Training for HACs and related skills for six months while flying only a limited number of lesser ships can get boring, and being unable to join an interesting corporation or alliance because your e-member isn't large enough yet can be frustrating.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
You know, apart from picking Teufel's datamining apart and argue about how valuable a complete noob is (as a prominent example), the key point that fortifies Teufel's position immensely is the fact that there is agreement on a 'new player being a liability to serious 0.0 corps'.
By admitting this it is intrinsicly already proven that the common catchphrases to newbies are terribly underrating the enormous difficulties a PvP interested newbie is encountering when starting off into PvP. The general EvE-public likes to sustain the rosy image of EvE being the epitome of 'you can start right off PvPing and if you're smart you'll have a blast and get better'; Which by all means isn't true.
New players should be confronted, keeping in mind that they are used to regular MMORPGs, with the fact that if they want to have fun-pvp and be successful in what they do they _need_ to learn a lot and expect at least 8 to 12 weeks training time until they are reaching a position that's somewhere near a chance against the regular PvP-joe. And I'm not talking about 0.0 and getting into PvP corps.
M
A while back, I made a trial account and before the trial expired, I had +100 kills on that char.
Dammit, someone should have told me that such things 'isn't true by all means', I was doing it wrong!
Seriously, what is this thread about? Is it a 'I am doing something everyone know it does not work for obvious reasons, look I have proof' thread type? Just in case I am missing something here...
I only had about 2 mill sp when i entered 0,0.
Its not the SP's that matter its the ships you can fly, and the persons attitude towards the game.
Scouting,Dictors,ceptors can all be trained rather fast if anything you can bypass all the low TII ships and fly a LR battle cruiser in no time with hardly any SP's a lot of the blocks rely on support fleets and bringing in noobs willing to fly those ships and do those jobs.