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too much hype?
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Hype is good, but to much hype is a sad sad thing. This game looks good...maybe even great. I believe this game will statisfy what a lot of people, including myself, are looking for. The problem lies in the overhypers. These people give games this near worship in pre-release and expect it to be everything they ever needed in life when it releases. This leads to much sadness when it actually releases and doesn't give the whole world a coke.
MEH...lots of other posts on this subject, therefor I wont go on. Hopefully you get the base idea of what I'm attempting to say.
Playing:
Lotro
Have Played:
EQII,DAOC,SWG,COH,EQ,DDO, Lotro,AoC, EvE,Guild Wars,
Silkroad Online,Aion,and WoW
Favorite of all time: WoW
Waiting on:Swtor,Gw2, and Tera
The real problem starts when people start accepting unfounded theories about game mechanics and features that have no evidence to support they exist. Luckily the Anet devs go out of their way to explain each mechanic to the limitations of what they are able to. All the features that they have discussed were in the Gamescom and PAX demos. Essentially there was no suprises there for anyone in relation to mechanics and events. It game a tangible feel and look of what we can expect. The look of the monsters and the sheer environment detail was the true gift of the demo.
There is nothing wrong in itself with voting this game to be the ultimate experience because essentially each person votes in their own context according to what appeals to them. Its whether or not the user will take the good with the bad when they get their hands on it.
The true measure of the game will be known some weeks after launch when a good deal of content can be experienced. Then and only then can anyone right or wrong declare that on a personal level the game was over-hyped based on their expectations.
In reality this whole over-hyped discussion is utterly pointless really because no-one has any definitive evidence to say yes or no only what is...
I'll answer your post as clearly as I can. Bear in mind that I do not have a great stance on GW 2 myself since I also agree with Robert that I don't go for hype. The proof is in the pudding as they say. I am merely taking a negative stance on Robert's opinions on GW 2 not because he thinks there are or will be flaws (I have them myself: I question if there will be a solid raid structure) but rather that he publicly degrades the game on such limited knowledge of how GW 2 is actually going to be like at release as well as that he derails a thread into a "battle of the best objective opinion" which of course is subjective in itself.
It's abit like trying to get two blind people to describe the colour of red. A game like GW 2 that is sooooo far away from release combined with the fact that people's hype are fueled by their hopes (which can be a dominating emotion) makes it far easier to stick to the facts known about GW 2 at present. What Robert is doing is like trying to be like a leader of the blind people convinced that his objective description of the color red is more concievable than that of another blind person.
Unfortunately, people like how Roberts presents himself (through his writing content and style) means they don't know how to relate to people or their opinions, so he is taking the "If you can't join em, beat em" attitude in a style in which he enjoys and finds confort: by using his logic and |objective opinion?| (there is very little in people's own emotions and opinions which are objective unfortunately) as a source of confidence that what he says will send sheep to the slaughter.
WE, as a community filled of people of different backgrounds and gaming history and wants, don't need a lone soldier parading the grasslands and turning it into a controversial warzone. After all, how can you expect that lone soldier to understand why posters are trying to say "Nothing is objective here! It's your opinion only!" when they already have themselves caught up in a vicious loop of subjective reality.
In short, I believe that most posters feel that it wouldn't be so bad if Robert just stuck to posts themselves and not turn them into a debate of objective opinion this and objective opinion that. He is no more right in his opinions than other posters, he needs to realise this. That is the logical thing to do.
It's a never ending process. AAA MMO is announced; the MMORPG communities hype the ever-loving shit out of it; the community gets pissed because the game did not live up to their unrealistic expectations. It will be no different for GW2. I ignore hype, and can't even bother to get excited about MMO's anymore. If a good MMO comes out, chances are I'll read about it, but as the saying goes, the proof is in the pudding. After all these years, people still don't realize that a game can sound/look great, but it can be a pile of junk when it finally releases... no matter who the developer is.
Hmm same things happen about Swtor people still think it is just an instanced personal single player game. Even though it has crafting,raiding and all the group content. but people don't believe that either so those people are in every game that is being released. The thing i find funny a lot of you saying Anet is only talking about things that are in teh game . Not the person i'm quoting in mind. Are the same people complaining that well if bioware don't show off raids and crafting they are lying and it isn't in game. Kinda funny in my opinion.
GW2 was announced ages ago....finally, Anet came out with a demo, and said: "Here is our game."
The gaming world went apeshit. Forget about all the promises and talk and company-hype. The demo shows what they've done. Compare it with ALL other upcoming MMOs.....there is no comparision.
There's a reason GW2 is winning all the "best-of" awards. This is not Warhammer Online, or Aion, or Conan.......(I won't get into the different marketing schemes). GW2 made that "manifesto" trailer, and then they SHOWED their game on the floor...playable.
If there's any hype, it's being built by people like me. I haven't been this excited about a game since Final Fantasy 7. Yes. Guilty.
Good games will generate their own hype.
I don’t see hype as a bad thing, I see it as free advertising. That is what hype really is. It use to be called “Word of mouth” but this is a new age and we now talk with keyboards so someone had to come up with a new trendy term, it is still the same thing. As I define it, Hype simply means Word of mouth advertising for an upcoming virtual product that no one can publicly acknowledge having really played or used yet.
Hype neither a bad thing nor a good thing. It just is, the good or bad of it depends more on the accuracy of what is being said that the fact it is being said.
So, to answer the OP’s question; is there such a thing as too much hype? Simple answer; No.
One a side note: It is my belief that reasonable people will make a reasonable effort to become informed about subjects that are of interest to them. The fact that so many so called gamers have such serious misconceptions about what Guild Wars 2 will or will not have tells me that they really are not interested in the game, have been mislead by second or tenth hand misinformation or simply chose to believe something they think they remember reading somewhere. It’s not like the developers have made any attempt to hide information they have released publicly from the public or deliberately misinform any of their future players.
They have actually shown quite a lot, they've explained how the Dynamic Events worked, you could see an event chain in action and demo players could experience it. I guess you must have missed those parts in all the gameplay footage.
There was enough engaging gameplay to be seen and experienced, at least to people who actually played the demo; since challenging and engaging PvE is according to personal judgement and experience, if those players and reporters felt it was engaging then that's what counts, right? Players should feel engaged in their PvE. Demo players and reporters felt they were, hence ANet's mission accomplished.
Most of the people that played the demo had their mind already made up on how the experience would be before they played it. GW2 has no flaws to them, so they went in thinking everything was amazing whether it was or not. I got to play it at PAX and nothing seemed groundbreaking in the demo. But maybe i am desensitized because I have actually played a ton of mainstream MMOs so this is not some sorta new domain for me. The demo was like gw1 as far as difficulty, and it was humorous seeing most of the players so inefficient with movement. Now I hear people just constantly saying "omg it was a demo they had to make it easy" but if they can make that argument about how the demo inaccurately represents the true state of the game, then why can't arguments for the other side be made the same way? If the demo is considered an inaccurate representation when criticisms are made, then it is also inaccurate when it comes to praises. I mean have you played the demo yourself? I don't think you fully grasp how casual friendly the game is, people were rezzing like nothing, death means nothing, pve AI is simplistic. Their shatterer event wasn't difficult in nature at all, it was just a mindless zerg of players of varying skill levels throwing themselves recklessly into the chaos and having infinite lives.Robert,
You remind me of my cousin that is a Christian that goes around the world into Muslim and Buddhist countries and tries to objectively convert people to Christianity. In reality, you think that we are ALL subjectively looking at GW 2 and you are only one of the few that is not, and looking at the development of GW 2 objectively. What my cousin and you have in common is that:
1) You are coming onto these forums and trying to pick out people's posts and align them to how you percieve them to be saying in that post then bashing their posts because you are convinced that somehow they are not seeing GW 2 how you do with all it's faults. You are arrogant in the sense that you go out of your way to claim that your logic and your MMORPG history and the limited exposure of GW 2 is without saying you can predict how GW 2 is really going to be like at release and in the future whilst claiming that we are all either "fanbois" or deluded by the fact that we are not being objective.
2) like my cousin, you are trying to push your negativity of the game onto others. Why? Do you want converts yourself following your train of thought and arrogant sense of entitlement because you claim that hype and people's interest in the game is unwarranted?
So, you claim you have played the game at PAX. You say that most people that played the demo already had in their mind made up on how the experience would go even before they played. I've never heard of such contradictory and assumptious logic in my life. Robert, that was 0/10. Yea, like everyone there except you has had exposure to GW 2 already and would not see any flaws because they think it's amazing. They were all youngsters with not the gaming history you have I bet. Yes, Robert they were all subjective, under the spell of GW 2. Unlike you, that went there and objectively looked at the game from a neutral zone. You are terrible at logic. Your posting history on here and on GWGuru and weeks even before PAX combined about GW 2 would not give you your own biased and subjective opinion on GW 2 already? You can talk the talk but in reality you probably went to PAX already with your mind made up wanting to find things that are wrong about GW 2, you can't walk the walk.
Continue to be the "glass is half empty" kind of guy, you will certainly not brainwash people into waking up to your level of train thought if that's your motivation. You claim that being objective is not being pessimistic, even if it is the truth. It's like saying if you become a Christian you will go to heaven. Where is the truth is that? Yes, you are being pessimistic Robert, a little too much considering that your entire posting history in here is sorely at GW 2.
In closing, I hope Robert that you're not the same kind of person in real life that would rather find the faults in something, because it gives you a sense of entitement and comfort to try to convince others why, than to look at it in a positive light.
The problem here is that your cousin who is trying to convert people is deluded and not objective, whereas I am objective so the comparison is not accurate. If anything it would be people like you who are more like your cousin, believing that you must dictate what others think and are not comfortable with just letting people believe what they want to believe. I hardly try to convert people, I just try to share a more objective point of view. Whereas the people who fanboi this game don't even want to let objective criticisms exist. Anytime someone shares an opinion that isn't in line with the bandwagoners people act offended that someone has a different point of view. To be honest the true negativity here is fanboism. They are the aggressors who constantly get mad when people don't agree with them about how amazing whatever it is they fanboi is. If you guys were objective you would understand the concept that everyone has different opinions, instead of trying to make everyone agree that this game is an 8.73 hype meter quality game, when in reality it is not. On a side note not specifically related to you, people do come into things with their mind made up, the mind has powerful influence over people. Someone who believed gw2 had no flaws before playing the demo is going to be a much more generous critic than someone who is completely objective. I am objective, I do not hate the game, I do not love it. I look at things from the perspective of someone that has been playing mmos for over a decade and has seen the strengths and weaknesses of the industry. Just remember people might think their analogies are good from their perspective, but if they aren't objective, or do not have a good understanding of the way things work, the analogy can be grossly inaccurate. A good example of skewed perspectives is the gw2g forums. A lot of times those people will sit there trying to make fun of the wow forums, and then you go back to the gw2g forums and it is the exact same behavior just substitute "gw2" in place of "wow" for everything. Why is it like this? Because those people aren't objective, to them wow is the devil and gw2 is a saint, and they take their fanaticism further by belittling wow fanbois and acting like gw2 is superior, yet fail to realize they behave exactly like those wow fanbois, just for a different game.Robert,
Yes you are right. You are entilted to believe what you want to believe and no I am not trying to say otherwise. Once again, it is not the content of you posting here that people are attacking you about, I do agree with you on some points. I also have some current concerns regarding GW 2. People are not attacking you, like myself, as people that are not on the GW 2 Bandwagon nor are we fanboys, over your own agressive and persistent viewpoints. Viewpoints that you claim should be more valid than others because you are being more objective? Yes, people have different opinions, why on earth do you expect people to be objective about people having different opinions? People do not agree with your objectiveness, that doesn't make them a fanboy and certainly doesn't make them an aggressor, does it?
Robert, your entire posting history here has been based on the GW 2 forums with your objective criticisms as you call it. You can't go around saying that people are wrong to hype a game to 8.73. If they want to, let them. That is their opinion on the current state of GW 2 at the moment. It is certainly not yours, and probably not mine either. But it certainly doesn't make them less objective about GW 2, because to be objective doesn't mean it might not be objectively looking really good despite the flaws does it?
You quote: I look at things from the perspective of someone that has been playing mmos for over a decade and has seen the strengths and weaknesses of the industry. Just remember people might think their analogies are good from their perspective, but if they aren't objective, or do not have a good understanding of the way things work, the analogy can be grossly inaccurate.
I think what you are trying to say is that to be consistently objective, one must have a neutral stance, in other words sitting on the fence between both sides: the good and the ugly. I know the concept you speak of, since a few of my previous employment opportunities have used objective stances to pilot and review things. I hear you on this one.
I'll finish here by saying that sure people's analogies might be innacurate but the problem with being too objective is that it is hard to strike a balance between the good and the ugly. You would find it very hard to change people's stances on that and simply put, your objective viewpoint has been to the ugly side of the fence whereas for others it is on the good side of the fence. Neither are wrong. Simply put.
@Robertdinh: Is there a reason why you can't/won't put breaks or alineas into your posts, but always post in a long, unedited wall of text?
Regarding hype//fanboism/criticism/negativity, personally I don't really care as long as people are able to see both good and bad aspects of a game in a modicum of balance and clear eyed views.
What annoys me is if people start spouting half truths or outright misinformation, merely because they're too disinterested/lazy to read up or just 'assume' how things are because of their colored view even if available evidence (footage, etc) show otherwise.
For the rest, people should believe what they're comfortable with, after all, much will always be speculation until a game actually launches.
And hype, it's just a meter of people's enthusiasm, sometimes artificially given an extra boost; what is moer important is managing your expectations. if people expect the sky and paradise, they're setting themselves up for disappointment. It doesn't mean that people should do the other extreme and disbelieve and distrust everything said and shown about a game, as some people tend to do after getting burnt in the past. Common sense and realistic expectations is better.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
They have actually shown quite a lot, they've explained how the Dynamic Events worked, you could see an event chain in action and demo players could experience it. I guess you must have missed those parts in all the gameplay footage.
There was enough engaging gameplay to be seen and experienced, at least to people who actually played the demo; since challenging and engaging PvE is according to personal judgement and experience, if those players and reporters felt it was engaging then that's what counts, right? Players should feel engaged in their PvE. Demo players and reporters felt they were, hence ANet's mission accomplished.
Most of the people that played the demo had their mind already made up on how the experience would be before they played it. GW2 has no flaws to them, so they went in thinking everything was amazing whether it was or not. I got to play it at PAX and nothing seemed groundbreaking in the demo. But maybe i am desensitized because I have actually played a ton of mainstream MMOs so this is not some sorta new domain for me. The demo was like gw1 as far as difficulty, and it was humorous seeing most of the players so inefficient with movement. Now I hear people just constantly saying "omg it was a demo they had to make it easy" but if they can make that argument about how the demo inaccurately represents the true state of the game, then why can't arguments for the other side be made the same way? If the demo is considered an inaccurate representation when criticisms are made, then it is also inaccurate when it comes to praises. I mean have you played the demo yourself? I don't think you fully grasp how casual friendly the game is, people were rezzing like nothing, death means nothing, pve AI is simplistic. Their shatterer event wasn't difficult in nature at all, it was just a mindless zerg of players of varying skill levels throwing themselves recklessly into the chaos and having infinite lives.Robert,
You remind me of my cousin that is a Christian that goes around the world into Muslim and Buddhist countries and tries to objectively convert people to Christianity. In reality, you think that we are ALL subjectively looking at GW 2 and you are only one of the few that is not, and looking at the development of GW 2 objectively. What my cousin and you have in common is that:
1) You are coming onto these forums and trying to pick out people's posts and align them to how you percieve them to be saying in that post then bashing their posts because you are convinced that somehow they are not seeing GW 2 how you do with all it's faults. You are arrogant in the sense that you go out of your way to claim that your logic and your MMORPG history and the limited exposure of GW 2 is without saying you can predict how GW 2 is really going to be like at release and in the future whilst claiming that we are all either "fanbois" or deluded by the fact that we are not being objective.
2) like my cousin, you are trying to push your negativity of the game onto others. Why? Do you want converts yourself following your train of thought and arrogant sense of entitlement because you claim that hype and people's interest in the game is unwarranted?
So, you claim you have played the game at PAX. You say that most people that played the demo already had in their mind made up on how the experience would go even before they played. I've never heard of such contradictory and assumptious logic in my life. Robert, that was 0/10. Yea, like everyone there except you has had exposure to GW 2 already and would not see any flaws because they think it's amazing. They were all youngsters with not the gaming history you have I bet. Yes, Robert they were all subjective, under the spell of GW 2. Unlike you, that went there and objectively looked at the game from a neutral zone. You are terrible at logic. Your posting history on here and on GWGuru and weeks even before PAX combined about GW 2 would not give you your own biased and subjective opinion on GW 2 already? You can talk the talk but in reality you probably went to PAX already with your mind made up wanting to find things that are wrong about GW 2, you can't walk the walk.
Continue to be the "glass is half empty" kind of guy, you will certainly not brainwash people into waking up to your level of train thought if that's your motivation. You claim that being objective is not being pessimistic, even if it is the truth. It's like saying if you become a Christian you will go to heaven. Where is the truth is that? Yes, you are being pessimistic Robert, a little too much considering that your entire posting history in here is sorely at GW 2.
In closing, I hope Robert that you're not the same kind of person in real life that would rather find the faults in something, because it gives you a sense of entitement and comfort to try to convince others why, than to look at it in a positive light.
The problem here is that your cousin who is trying to convert people is deluded and not objective, whereas I am objective so the comparison is not accurate. If anything it would be people like you who are more like your cousin, believing that you must dictate what others think and are not comfortable with just letting people believe what they want to believe. I hardly try to convert people, I just try to share a more objective point of view. Whereas the people who fanboi this game don't even want to let objective criticisms exist. Anytime someone shares an opinion that isn't in line with the bandwagoners people act offended that someone has a different point of view. To be honest the true negativity here is fanboism. They are the aggressors who constantly get mad when people don't agree with them about how amazing whatever it is they fanboi is. If you guys were objective you would understand the concept that everyone has different opinions, instead of trying to make everyone agree that this game is an 8.73 hype meter quality game, when in reality it is not. On a side note not specifically related to you, people do come into things with their mind made up, the mind has powerful influence over people. Someone who believed gw2 had no flaws before playing the demo is going to be a much more generous critic than someone who is completely objective. I am objective, I do not hate the game, I do not love it. I look at things from the perspective of someone that has been playing mmos for over a decade and has seen the strengths and weaknesses of the industry. Just remember people might think their analogies are good from their perspective, but if they aren't objective, or do not have a good understanding of the way things work, the analogy can be grossly inaccurate. A good example of skewed perspectives is the gw2g forums. A lot of times those people will sit there trying to make fun of the wow forums, and then you go back to the gw2g forums and it is the exact same behavior just substitute "gw2" in place of "wow" for everything. Why is it like this? Because those people aren't objective, to them wow is the devil and gw2 is a saint, and they take their fanaticism further by belittling wow fanbois and acting like gw2 is superior, yet fail to realize they behave exactly like those wow fanbois, just for a different game.Robert,
Yes you are right. You are entilted to believe what you want to believe and no I am not trying to say otherwise. Once again, it is not the content of you posting here that people are attacking you about, I do agree with you on some points. I also have some current concerns regarding GW 2. People are not attacking you, like myself, as people that are not on the GW 2 Bandwagon nor are we fanboys, over your own agressive and persistent viewpoints. Viewpoints that you claim should be more valid than others because you are being more objective? Yes, people have different opinions, why on earth do you expect people to be objective about people having different opinions? People do not agree with your objectiveness, that doesn't make them a fanboy and certainly doesn't make them an aggressor, does it?
Robert, your entire posting history here has been based on the GW 2 forums with your objective criticisms as you call it. You can't go around saying that people are wrong to hype a game to 8.73. If they want to, let them. That is their opinion on the current state of GW 2 at the moment. It is certainly not yours, and probably not mine either. But it certainly doesn't make them less objective about GW 2, because to be objective doesn't mean it might not be objectively looking really good despite the flaws does it?
You quote: I look at things from the perspective of someone that has been playing mmos for over a decade and has seen the strengths and weaknesses of the industry. Just remember people might think their analogies are good from their perspective, but if they aren't objective, or do not have a good understanding of the way things work, the analogy can be grossly inaccurate.
I think what you are trying to say is that to be consistently objective, one must have a neutral stance, in other words sitting on the fence between both sides: the good and the ugly. I know the concept you speak of, since a few of my previous employment opportunities have used objective stances to pilot and review things. I hear you on this one.
I'll finish here by saying that sure people's analogies might be innacurate but the problem with being too objective is that it is hard to strike a balance between the good and the ugly. You would find it very hard to change people's stances on that and simply put, your objective viewpoint has been to the ugly side of the fence whereas for others it is on the good side of the fence. Neither are wrong. Simply put.
As I said before it only appears ugly because people are perceiving things from an 8.73 hype meter perspective. So anything below that is going to appear negative. If there were a hate meter I would probably appear too positive to those people.I am jumpy about GW2. I liked the gameplay videos and the features announced. This is the only MMO I am looking forward to play at launch. And yes, I am hyped
Hype doesnt equal quality so i never understand all the fuss bout hype. people are waiting long time for gw2 so hype is high, big deal
Robert,
You are more than welcome to come on here and rack up more on your 200+ posts on your crusade and why you think that because you see things in an objective way that GW 2 and it's hype meter is in reality not 8.73.
I can't understand why you are so obsessed with the hype meter, it is not an objective analysis nor is it a "this game must be this good! It's 8.73" conclusion. It is a subjective and at best tarnished with perception and lack of understanding. BUT it is people's hopes for the game as much as it is an indication of things that may come to fruition at release. Nobody really knows where the true faults and positives will be until after release.
Let people continue to have hope in this genre....I know I need it, people like how GW 2 is shaping up so good on them. You are not the tooth fairy or Santa Clause going around and objectively telling people that they don't exist.
Not everyone is agreeing nor disagreeing that this is a 8.73 game in it's current state.
You're a gamer, not a developer. You may have 10 years gaming experience behind you but in reality you have to understand that even before that so-called "top" game comes out for you, you'll just have to continue nit picking GW 2 to your heart's content.
pointless thread is pointless
any publicity is good publicity.
stop feeding the trolls, did you all let the bar hit you too heavy last night?
edit: the block link is YUMMY
was I talking to you? nop
Edit: get off your period
See that's the thing, objective criticism in your mind is perceived as being "obsessed" or being on a "crusade" because you are not objective. There is no crusade here, there is merely observation. If someone points out that the earth is not flat, is he on a crusade to prove that automatically? No. As far as not knowing where the true faults are until after release, that is true for people with basic understanding, I mean yea things are always subject to change, we could find out vivendi bought ncsoft and has shifted gw2 over to a blizzard project tomorrow, for all we know, but the reality of it is when you are experienced you understand the direction things take and how they turn out. There's plenty of hope for the genre regardless of whether there is fanboing and hyping, WoW exploded the mmorpg player base and it is only getting larger and larger. One could also make the argument that by not being objective and hyping games you are making OTHERS lose hope for the game itself. Some people don't want to play another game that has a wow-like fanbase. I am indeed a gamer, but top gamers understand games better than the developers themselves usually. If this weren't so the developers would be the best players, and usually they aren't even close.But you are on a crusade because you seem to refuse players to believe that GW 2 might be something special to them out of the hat by posting your entire history on here by objectively saying that GW 2 is a) not worth the hype and b) because we are not being objective we can't see the faults in GW 2. You have posted more than 200 Robert, 200 posts on GW 2 alone, if that is not dedication to get your point across, then I don't know what is. You say it's merely observation, 200+ posts is not mere observation, it's fanaticism with a cause. A cause to get people to see your point of view?
Robert do not do that. Do not say because of experience you understand the direction things take. I'm sure there are alot of people that are ALOT older than you who play and work in the gaming industry that are being objective just as you are but also have interested in the game. Yes gamers can be better than the developers but you must also realise that these same developers have alot more exposure to top gamers and feedback from players on how to make top games. Just because you may be a top gamer (I assume you mean you are good at games?) yes it may mean you are aware of common trends in good MMORPGs but it doesn't mean you know in this case in what direction GW 2 is going to take by release. Hopefully some of your issues and mine will be addressed. I'll finish up with one final thing: A top gamer doesn't mean a top developer. There is alot of work being a developer and unless you work in a role as one, you certainly do not understand games better than the developers. Why do you think otherwise? lol, It's their job.
See that's the thing, objective criticism in your mind is perceived as being "obsessed" or being on a "crusade" because you are not objective. There is no crusade here, there is merely observation. If someone points out that the earth is not flat, is he on a crusade to prove that automatically? No. As far as not knowing where the true faults are until after release, that is true for people with basic understanding, I mean yea things are always subject to change, we could find out vivendi bought ncsoft and has shifted gw2 over to a blizzard project tomorrow, for all we know, but the reality of it is when you are experienced you understand the direction things take and how they turn out. There's plenty of hope for the genre regardless of whether there is fanboing and hyping, WoW exploded the mmorpg player base and it is only getting larger and larger. One could also make the argument that by not being objective and hyping games you are making OTHERS lose hope for the game itself. Some people don't want to play another game that has a wow-like fanbase. I am indeed a gamer, but top gamers understand games better than the developers themselves usually. If this weren't so the developers would be the best players, and usually they aren't even close.But you are on a crusade because you seem to refuse players to believe that GW 2 might be something special to them out of the hat by posting your entire history on here by objectively saying that GW 2 is a) not worth the hype and b) because we are not being objective we can't see the faults in GW 2. You have posted more than 200 Robert, 200 posts on GW 2 alone, if that is not dedication to get your point across, then I don't know what is. You say it's merely observation, 200+ posts is not mere observation, it's fanaticism with a cause. A cause to get people to see your point of view?
Robert do not do that. Do not say because of experience you understand the direction things take. I'm sure there are alot of people that are ALOT older than you who play and work in the gaming industry that are being objective just as you are but also have interested in the game. Yes gamers can be better than the developers but you must also realise that these same developers have alot more exposure to top gamers and feedback from players on how to make top games. Just because you may be a top gamer (I assume you mean you are good at games?) yes it may mean you are aware of common trends in good MMORPGs but it doesn't mean you know in this case in what direction GW 2 is going to take by release. Hopefully some of your issues and mine will be addressed. I'll finish up with one final thing: A top gamer doesn't mean a top developer. There is alot of work being a developer and unless you work in a role as one, you certainly do not understand games better than the developers. Why do you think otherwise? lol, It's their job.
Really? Did I ever say gw2 is not allowed to be special to some players? I said it would be a success, you only perceive incorrectly what I say because you are automatically on the defense because you are hyped up about the game. And there are many more people with more posts than me. As far as people being more objective yet excited about the game, that simply isn't possible. People who are objective and experienced with MMOs understand that even the most promising sounding games can turn out to be total flops. We know what to look for and what to stay away from. I know the direction gw2 will take. I've said it many times, it is going to be another wow-like game that is very polished but is very casual friendly and provides little challenge to high caliber gamers. Is this because I am omnipotent? No, it is because I have a higher understanding for the direction anet is taking and i've played the demo. Now when the game comes out after the initial craze of playing a new game, it is going to have it's criticisms, when those criticisms are identical to the ones I have conveyed before the game has launched, it isn't going to be a coincidence. It's sorta like how a lot of seasoned MMO players knew warhammer would be a stinker, yet so many more people could not understand that and had to go waste their money to find out. Also your inexperience is apparent if you think developers understand their games better than the top players. The top players figure out mechanics that the developers had never considered, they master the game so their perspective of the game is of a very high skill level. Developers tend to be avg or slightly above avg in skill level, so their perception tends to be that of developing the game from the view of someone of that skill level. So to them some encounter may be too difficult in QA testing, but in live the top players might find it to be a cake walk. Bottom line is that some people see the game for what it really is, good or bad, while others are hyped up on it and logically can not see what the game is objectively because they are colored by their hype.Sorry man but your statement that top players understand games better then developers just shows how less you know about the industry. I have worked in that Industry and also have a couple of friends there so unless you have some experience when it comes to developing a game you are not qualified to make such a statement and than call it your objective opinion.
Do you really think when you know how to drive a car you automaticly can do it better than those guys who originaly designed and crafted your automobile. You dont need to be a top gamer to be a good gamedesigner. As a matter of fact the best game designers dont even play that many other games (Shigeru Miyamoto, Hideo Kojima, and many more). Being good at playing a game and creating/designing it are two pair of shoes. Sure developers need to know the audience they are catering to but they dont need to be the "better gamers" to create something thats fun and challenging to play.
Fact is that the difficulty especialy in the charr area of the demo at Gamescom and PAX was toned down. Also the grouping mechanic was deactivated and only little is known about group orientated content like dungeons and instance missions. Saying that GW2 is aimed at casual players is therefore a bit far fetched cause how can you judge on a games difficulty when you only played a demo that couldnt give a accurate impression in that matter. Its ok if you have your opinion and its also fine if you have your sceptisism towards GW2 but before you make bold statements like "top gamers understand the games better than their devs" and "GW2 is aimed at casual gamers" you should think about what you are actually posting here.
PS: If you really are that experienced with GW1 PvP/GvG you should actually know a guild called Rebel Rising (its just the most succesfull guild in GW history). That particular guild had anet developers in their gvg team! So a couple of those anet devs are actually also top gamers therefore following your logical conclusion they must understand their own game
See that's the thing, objective criticism in your mind is perceived as being "obsessed" or being on a "crusade" because you are not objective. There is no crusade here, there is merely observation. If someone points out that the earth is not flat, is he on a crusade to prove that automatically? No. As far as not knowing where the true faults are until after release, that is true for people with basic understanding, I mean yea things are always subject to change, we could find out vivendi bought ncsoft and has shifted gw2 over to a blizzard project tomorrow, for all we know, but the reality of it is when you are experienced you understand the direction things take and how they turn out. There's plenty of hope for the genre regardless of whether there is fanboing and hyping, WoW exploded the mmorpg player base and it is only getting larger and larger. One could also make the argument that by not being objective and hyping games you are making OTHERS lose hope for the game itself. Some people don't want to play another game that has a wow-like fanbase. I am indeed a gamer, but top gamers understand games better than the developers themselves usually. If this weren't so the developers would be the best players, and usually they aren't even close.Sorry man but your statement that top players understand games better then developers just shows how less you know about the industry. I have worked in that Industry and also have a couple of friends there so unless you have some experience when it comes to developing a game you are not qualified to make such a statement and than call it your objective opinion.
Do you really think when you know how to drive a car you automaticly can do it better than those guys who originaly designed and crafted your automobile. You dont need to be a top gamer to be a good gamedesigner. As a matter of fact the best game designers dont even play that many other games (Shigeru Miyamoto, Hideo Kojima, and many more). Being good at playing a game and creating/designing it are two pair of shoes. Sure developers need to know the audience they are catering to but they dont need to be the "better gamers" to create something thats fun and challenging to play.
Fact is that the difficulty especialy in the charr area of the demo at Gamescom and PAX was toned down. Also the grouping mechanic was deactivated and only little is known about group orientated content like dungeons and instance missions. Saying that GW2 is aimed at casual players is therefore a bit far fetched cause how can you judge on a games difficulty when you only played a demo that couldnt give a accurate impression in that matter. Its ok if you have your opinion and its also fine if you have your sceptisism towards GW2 but before you make bold statements like "top gamers understand the games better than their devs" and "GW2 is aimed at casual gamers" you should think about what you are actually posting here.
PS: If you really are that experienced with GW1 PvP/GvG you should actually know a guild called Rebel Rising (its just the most succesfull guild in GW history). That particular guild had anet developers in their gvg team! So a couple of those anet devs are actually also top gamers therefore following your logical conclusion they must understand their own game
Well we were speaking about the gaming market in general, and GW1 pvp was not an mmo nor was the pvp very hardcore. It was slow-paced with primitive movement and predictable and limited skill bars. If you ask top MMO pvp guilds most of them never even took GW1 seriously because the game was so easy, it simply isn't on the radar of the hardcore pvpers, nor is it on the radar of the casual community that WoW created. It always makes me laugh cause you can go to a forum like gw2g and see threads where they think WoW players are actually afraid of the release of GW2 like it will kill wow, when in reality most WoW players probably know nothing about gw and have never heard of it. Anyway, of course you are going to disagree with me if you don't know where I am coming from. But when people master games they have a higher understanding of how it all relates to each other, more so than the devs the majority of the time. That's sorta why some of the top players from EQ were able to turn around and make WoW the hit that it has become. Also I have mentioned it before, when GW2 gameplay demo suffers criticisms people claim it is because it was a demo and that all flaws will be fixed, but when it gets praise people seem to forget it was a demo that wasn't an accurate representation for how the game will be. I mean if it is accurate in good it has to be accurate in bad as well.Ok Robert, or whoever you are, you make some pretty bold statements by saying that it is impossible to be objective about a game and also have interest in a game. I think I'm a very objective person, I have to be in ways and I am experienced enough in the MMORPG scene to know that personally I think it alot easier for you to believe yourself that experience=knowledge. I don't use that logic to think that I know what direction A-net is taking GW 2, but good on you if you believe so. If you want to believe that I am inexperienced that's your choice. I am not, my little cup cake. I'll end by saying that I appreciate your feedback Robert, but I think you keep staring my postings back to one premise you believe in:
Bottom line is that some people see the game for what it really is, good or bad, while others are hyped up on it and logically can not see what the game is objectively because they are colored by their hype.
I look forward to seeing you on GW 2 one of these days, a cool beer on the side in celebration as well perhaps?
@ Robert
Of course it has flaws and i am not saying its perfect. There are in fact a couple of points that worry me too but i still think the game has potential. The thing is judging on the difficulty of a game based on a convention demo is just close minded therefore are any OBJECTIVE conclusions not possible.
Obviously you are not a big fan of GW which makes me doubt that you even have a proper pvp rank in this game (cause reaching a proper rank in GW needs some dedication and judging from your opinion i cant imagine you would play a game for longer that you despise that much). If you really played the pvp part of this game seriously than you wouldnt throw around with statements like "primitive movement" and "conditioned/simplistic skillbar". There are a lot of aspects that make gws pvp very challenging and unique.
You say it has primitive movent! You probably have that opinion cause you cant jump and certain areas have invisible walls. But have you ever considered that gws projectile physics and collision system make movement in some ways way more important than in many other mmos or online rpgs. I dont know many mmos where you have a proper collision system which allows body blocking.
You also said that gws skillbar is simplistic and conditioned. Hm at first sight you are right but you didnt mention that GW has more than 1000 different skills and through the flexible respec and dual class system each character can basicly acces all of them. I have never seen a computuer game with nearly as much skillbuild creativity and variety. Guild Was was inspired by card games such as Magic the Gathering and everyone who played that game for real knows how complex and creative deck building can be. This open design philosophie gives that game a complexity that is unmatched in this genre (mmos and online rpgs). Yeah if your definition of challenge is to cope with 20 to 30 skills at the same time than yes GW might not be your game. For you that simplistic skillbar is a flaw but for everyone who actually digged a bit deeper and also is a fan of playstyle variety this conditioned skill philosophy is a true strengh of that game.
Yeah sure you will think i am just a GW fanboy and to a certain degree you i am a fan but I also know about the flaws that game has (its far from perfect but than again which game is). Your clumsly criticism shows that you havent played the game very much and for sure not on a higher pvp level. Its ok if you just have played it for a while and it just didnt appeal to you but claiming to be an expert and than making such obviously not very well researched statements just makes you look bad.
You can have all the possible skills in the world, but when you are limited to one skill bar while actually fighting the game is simplistic and easy. Whereas in other games you are dealing with like 40-50 abilities per person, which makes things quite complex. The movement was primitive, if you can't understand that, at least relative to other mmorpg games, then your mind is already made up anyway. As I said before gw1 pvpers want to think gw1 pvp was some sorta pinnacle of rpg pvp, but it was easy-mode and not even on the radar of veteran pvp guilds.
See that's the thing, objective criticism in your mind is perceived as being "obsessed" or being on a "crusade" because you are not objective. There is no crusade here, there is merely observation. If someone points out that the earth is not flat, is he on a crusade to prove that automatically? No. As far as not knowing where the true faults are until after release, that is true for people with basic understanding, I mean yea things are always subject to change, we could find out vivendi bought ncsoft and has shifted gw2 over to a blizzard project tomorrow, for all we know, but the reality of it is when you are experienced you understand the direction things take and how they turn out. There's plenty of hope for the genre regardless of whether there is fanboing and hyping, WoW exploded the mmorpg player base and it is only getting larger and larger. One could also make the argument that by not being objective and hyping games you are making OTHERS lose hope for the game itself. Some people don't want to play another game that has a wow-like fanbase. I am indeed a gamer, but top gamers understand games better than the developers themselves usually. If this weren't so the developers would be the best players, and usually they aren't even close.But you are on a crusade because you seem to refuse players to believe that GW 2 might be something special to them out of the hat by posting your entire history on here by objectively saying that GW 2 is a) not worth the hype and b) because we are not being objective we can't see the faults in GW 2. You have posted more than 200 Robert, 200 posts on GW 2 alone, if that is not dedication to get your point across, then I don't know what is. You say it's merely observation, 200+ posts is not mere observation, it's fanaticism with a cause. A cause to get people to see your point of view?
Robert do not do that. Do not say because of experience you understand the direction things take. I'm sure there are alot of people that are ALOT older than you who play and work in the gaming industry that are being objective just as you are but also have interested in the game. Yes gamers can be better than the developers but you must also realise that these same developers have alot more exposure to top gamers and feedback from players on how to make top games. Just because you may be a top gamer (I assume you mean you are good at games?) yes it may mean you are aware of common trends in good MMORPGs but it doesn't mean you know in this case in what direction GW 2 is going to take by release. Hopefully some of your issues and mine will be addressed. I'll finish up with one final thing: A top gamer doesn't mean a top developer. There is alot of work being a developer and unless you work in a role as one, you certainly do not understand games better than the developers. Why do you think otherwise? lol, It's their job.
Really? Did I ever say gw2 is not allowed to be special to some players? I said it would be a success, you only perceive incorrectly what I say because you are automatically on the defense because you are hyped up about the game. And there are many more people with more posts than me. As far as people being more objective yet excited about the game, that simply isn't possible. People who are objective and experienced with MMOs understand that even the most promising sounding games can turn out to be total flops. We know what to look for and what to stay away from. I know the direction gw2 will take. I've said it many times, it is going to be another wow-like game that is very polished but is very casual friendly and provides little challenge to high caliber gamers. Is this because I am omnipotent? No, it is because I have a higher understanding for the direction anet is taking and i've played the demo. Now when the game comes out after the initial craze of playing a new game, it is going to have it's criticisms, when those criticisms are identical to the ones I have conveyed before the game has launched, it isn't going to be a coincidence. It's sorta like how a lot of seasoned MMO players knew warhammer would be a stinker, yet so many more people could not understand that and had to go waste their money to find out. Also your inexperience is apparent if you think developers understand their games better than the top players. The top players figure out mechanics that the developers had never considered, they master the game so their perspective of the game is of a very high skill level. Developers tend to be avg or slightly above avg in skill level, so their perception tends to be that of developing the game from the view of someone of that skill level. So to them some encounter may be too difficult in QA testing, but in live the top players might find it to be a cake walk. Bottom line is that some people see the game for what it really is, good or bad, while others are hyped up on it and logically can not see what the game is objectively because they are colored by their hype.Ok Robert, or whoever you are, you make some pretty bold statements by saying that it is impossible to be objective about a game and also have interest in a game. I think I'm a very objective person, I have to be in ways and I am experienced enough in the MMORPG scene to know that personally I think it alot easier for you to believe yourself that experience=knowledge. I don't use that logic to think that I know what direction A-net is taking GW 2, but good on you if you believe so. If you want to believe that I am inexperienced that's your choice. I am not, my little cup cake. I'll end by saying that I appreciate your feedback Robert, but I think you keep staring my postings back to one premise you believe in:
Bottom line is that some people see the game for what it really is, good or bad, while others are hyped up on it and logically can not see what the game is objectively because they are colored by their hype.
I look forward to seeing you on GW 2 one of these days, a cool beer on the side in celebration as well perhaps?
Sure thing...