Yes, join a clique of people and only talk to them. That's a wonderful way to build community in a game.
Sad what this genre has come to.
Come to? That's how it's been since 2004. It's a shame, but the genre "came to" this 6 years ago. I'm looking forward to GW2, but it seems to be taking the genre even further down the path of clique/elitism with the questing system. At least in FFXIV you still need to talk to people to grind/do leves.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I don't think I've ever played a multiplayer game with less chat. Sure part of it might be that the chat systems is awful, and typing gets interrupted by the UI when crafting, but I've played for hours without seeing anything in /say or /shout.
Join a linkshell.
I did. That doesn't change the fact that no one outside of my LS says anything. At least for me, part of the MMO experience is the random banter in chat while you're crafting or doing a quest, not just about talking to the same guild members every day. Barrens chat > no chat at all.
That is a matter of opinion.
Anyway, it was the same with FFXI. I'm not sure why but /say and /shout for these ff online games tends to be for business and ls chat for socializing. It's probably because the range of /say and /shout is fairly limited and there are no global or zone chats besides linkshell chatting. In any case, it's not because people are anti-social it's just a different way of chatting.
You can join up to 8 linkshells in this game too. Join like 3 and your chat box will be constantly filled, if that's what you're looking for. You could even create an ls specifcally for Chuck Norris jokes and bullshitting if you wanted. Nobody is stopping you and if you spent some time recruiting it probably would be decently popular.
I'm not saying I want my chat box to be constantly filled. I'm saying that I don't want the game to feel like it's just me and my LS. For example if I'm about to start a levee , I may want to do a pug from time to time or when the rest of my LS is busy. A couple of days ago I was running by and saw a player asking two blacksmiths where he could buy a blacksmithing tool. They simply ignored him (I answered him once it was obvious they would not). And yes, that was a legitimate question considering NPCs, especially merchants can be a pain in the ass to find. Players shouldn't have to search databases to find a merchant.
I highly doubt that I will ever return to the game, and the terrible in game community is a big reason why.
I don't think I've ever played a multiplayer game with less chat. Sure part of it might be that the chat systems is awful, and typing gets interrupted by the UI when crafting, but I've played for hours without seeing anything in /say or /shout.
Join a linkshell.
Yes, join a clique of people and only talk to them. That's a wonderful way to build community in a game.
Sad what this genre has come to.
^^ Wrong. Linkshell is the only method of communicating accross long distances in this game. It is NOT a clique. You can join up to 8 and talk accross them all. Think of them as global chat channels. The other option is continue to try and communicate in a 50 foot radius around you.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Ok i may be the onlyone feeling this but i have played the game for about a day now and it is imposible for me to talk to anyone. Good lord i say hi whats up and no one ever responds. I ask a question about crafting and carpentry and if they can make bows... no one responds untill i ask if anyone can even understand me... and then oh look some one finaly replies yea i can understand you...
Maybe the original poster is on to something.
if some random stranger ran up to me in the game and said, "hi, what's up" I'd be hesistant to reply, thinking, "yeah, whatever kid, I'm trying to play the game, go bug somebody else if you're looking for idle conversation."
If some random stranger starts shouting they want to know something about crafting and carpentry and if they can make bows, I'm going to be hesistant to reply, thinking, "Jebus kid, do you have any idea of the enormity of what you're saying? Crafting a bow is pretty serious business. Maybey ou should reference crafting website and get an idea. We're trying to play the game here."
And then they're like, "can anyone even understand me" and I'm like, "yeah, I can understand you..." hoping they'd take the hint that we're trying to play teh game here.
So I guess that makes me an introvert. It's not that I wouldn't lend a helping hand, but I sure want to see some evidence the person I'm talking to isn't just out to waste my time. If everybody else playing the game feels the same way, I guess I'm among like company.
Wow.
You're so dedicated to defending XIV against all criticism that you'll actually justify and condone an anti-social mentality from other players. You're seriously trying to justify players in XIV being anti-social?
Seriously, Geld... Is there *anything* to do with XIV someone could criticize that you won't find some way to spin or dismiss in your tireless defense of it? Anything at all?
What's funny is, back when XI first launched in the US, people would ask questions in /shout and there were plenty of people ready to answer, provide what help they could, or even say "I haven't figured that out yet, either".
When people are interested in being part of a community, they are not "bothered" by someone asking a question. And if XIV's community at large (ie. not linkshells) is really shaping up to be that un-friendly and that un-responsive when another player is asking a question.... not a good sign.
You largely missed the point of what I was saying - that in order to engage someone in conversation in an MMORPG, you should be as respectful to their needs as you are hoping they will be to yours.
Not only did I not miss your point, you're only underscoring it further in your reply.
Asking a question in /shout isn't "being respectful of others' needs"?Really?
In truth, Final Fantasy XIV isn't exactly the kind of game you're going to be able to rely upon others to get you through. If you can't at least show enough dedication to discover things for yourself, you're probably going to be a constant drain on others, always asking where this or that NPC, component, or recipe can be found.
The fact that you have to take the example to the most extreme - someone "relying on others for everything" - in order to make your point, only makes it that much weaker. I don't think we're talking about "someone asking for help with everything". We're talking about someone asking a question here and there.
So, asking a question in /shout in hopes someone could provide some helpful info is "relying upon others to get you through"? Is everyone supposed to be an island of one, never asking for outside help, but figuring everything out on their own, even when there are hundreds around them who could provide a quick answer and, you know, be community-like?
Do you actually feel that way?
Asking a question in /shout is not "relying upon others to get you through". It's asking a question that perhaps someone might know the answer to, just as you might have the answer to something someone else needs to know at some point. It's what an active, social MMO community does.
Question: You know the amazing community FFXI has often been cited as having over the years? That community started building from day 1, and it wasn't built on people "relying on themselves" and "not asking questions" so as to "remain respectful of others' needs", as though people are going to feel offended or "put out" by someone asking for help with something.
I've seen the same thing in Lineage 2. A bit more antagonistic, given the nature of the game, but a damn good community that game had for several years... they didn't get that way by "not asking questions" and "relying on themselves".
So, what you would call anti-social behavior, I would call justified given the context of the situation.
No, what you are doing is condoning and justifying anti-social behavior.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Ok i may be the onlyone feeling this but i have played the game for about a day now and it is imposible for me to talk to anyone. Good lord i say hi whats up and no one ever responds. I ask a question about crafting and carpentry and if they can make bows... no one responds untill i ask if anyone can even understand me... and then oh look some one finaly replies yea i can understand you...
Maybe the original poster is on to something.
if some random stranger ran up to me in the game and said, "hi, what's up" I'd be hesistant to reply, thinking, "yeah, whatever kid, I'm trying to play the game, go bug somebody else if you're looking for idle conversation."
If some random stranger starts shouting they want to know something about crafting and carpentry and if they can make bows, I'm going to be hesistant to reply, thinking, "Jebus kid, do you have any idea of the enormity of what you're saying? Crafting a bow is pretty serious business. Maybey ou should reference crafting website and get an idea. We're trying to play the game here."
And then they're like, "can anyone even understand me" and I'm like, "yeah, I can understand you..." hoping they'd take the hint that we're trying to play teh game here.
So I guess that makes me an introvert. It's not that I wouldn't lend a helping hand, but I sure want to see some evidence the person I'm talking to isn't just out to waste my time. If everybody else playing the game feels the same way, I guess I'm among like company.
Wow.
You're so dedicated to defending XIV against all criticism that you'll actually justify and condone an anti-social mentality from other players. You're seriously trying to justify players in XIV being anti-social?
Seriously, Geld... Is there *anything* to do with XIV someone could criticize that you won't find some way to spin or dismiss in your tireless defense of it? Anything at all?
What's funny is, back when XI first launched in the US, people would ask questions in /shout and there were plenty of people ready to answer, provide what help they could, or even say "I haven't figured that out yet, either".
When people are interested in being part of a community, they are not "bothered" by someone asking a question. And if XIV's community at large (ie. not linkshells) is really shaping up to be that un-friendly and that un-responsive when another player is asking a question.... not a good sign.
You largely missed the point of what I was saying - that in order to engage someone in conversation in an MMORPG, you should be as respectful to their needs as you are hoping they will be to yours.
Not only did I not miss your point, you're only underscoring it further in your reply.
Asking a question in /shout isn't "being respectful of others' needs"?Really? What needs, exactly, are being disrespected? The need to "not see people asking questions in shout or local chat"?
In truth, Final Fantasy XIV isn't exactly the kind of game you're going to be able to rely upon others to get you through. If you can't at least show enough dedication to discover things for yourself, you're probably going to be a constant drain on others, always asking where this or that NPC, component, or recipe can be found.
The fact that you have to take the example to the most extreme - someone "relying on others for everything" - in order to make your point, only makes it that much weaker. I don't think we're talking about "someone asking for help with everything". We're talking about someone asking a question here and there.
So, asking a question in /shout in hopes someone could provide some helpful info is "relying upon others to get you through"? Is everyone supposed to be an island of one, never asking for outside help, but figuring everything out on their own, even when there are hundreds around them who could provide a quick answer and, you know, be community-like?
Do you actually feel that way?
Asking a question in /shout is not "relying upon others to get you through". It's asking a question that perhaps someone might know the answer to, just as you might have the answer to something someone else needs to know at some point. It's what an active, social MMO community does.
Question: You know the amazing community FFXI has often been cited as having over the years? That community started building from day 1, and it wasn't built on people "relying on themselves" and "not asking questions" so as to "remain respectful of others' needs", as though people are going to feel offended or "put out" by someone asking for help with something.
It was built by people being social, and helpful and willing to take a few moments to answer a question, or give advice. *That* is why FFXI has the community it has.
I've seen the same thing in Lineage 2. A bit more antagonistic, given the nature of the game, but a damn good community that game had for several years... they didn't get that way by "not asking questions" and "relying on themselves".
So, what you would call anti-social behavior, I would call justified given the context of the situation.
No, what you are doing is being an apologist for and justifying anti-social behavior.
This quote, by you, sums up your attitude perfectly, and in your own words:
"if some random stranger ran up to me in the game and said, "hi, what's up" I'd be hesistant to reply, thinking, "yeah, whatever kid, I'm trying to play the game, go bug somebody else if you're looking for idle conversation."
That, my friend, is an unfriendly, anti-social mentality. You're not obligated to get into deep, meaningful conversation with the guy, but a simple "Hey there", I'm sure, wouldn't be "imposing on your solitude" too greatly. Or, maybe it would given the attitude you've demonstrated here.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I don't think I've ever played a multiplayer game with less chat. Sure part of it might be that the chat systems is awful, and typing gets interrupted by the UI when crafting, but I've played for hours without seeing anything in /say or /shout.
Join a linkshell.
Yes, join a clique of people and only talk to them. That's a wonderful way to build community in a game.
Sad what this genre has come to.
^^ Wrong. Linkshell is the only method of communicating accross long distances in this game. It is NOT a clique. You can join up to 8 and talk accross them all. Think of them as global chat channels. The other option is continue to try and communicate in a 50 foot radius around you.
I think what he meant was that people shouldn't have to resort to joining cliques, linkshells, guilds, groups, or whatever you want to call them, in order to talk to other users.
IMO EQ2s chat system is still better than anything out there. You only want to your guild? sure you can do that. You want to join a chan devoted to nothing but your guilds combat parses? sure you can do that. You want to join a level appropriate, class appropriate, zone, etc. chat? you can do that.
I don't think I've ever played a multiplayer game with less chat. Sure part of it might be that the chat systems is awful, and typing gets interrupted by the UI when crafting, but I've played for hours without seeing anything in /say or /shout.
Join a linkshell.
Yes, join a clique of people and only talk to them. That's a wonderful way to build community in a game.
Sad what this genre has come to.
^^ Wrong. Linkshell is the only method of communicating accross long distances in this game. It is NOT a clique. You can join up to 8 and talk accross them all. Think of them as global chat channels. The other option is continue to try and communicate in a 50 foot radius around you.
I think what he meant was that people shouldn't have to resort to joining cliques, linkshells, guilds, groups, or whatever you want to call them, in order to talk to other users.
Bingo. That's precisely what I was getting at.
In Jeuno or Whitegate in FFXI, you'd see people chatting in local and /shout all the time. They didn't have to share the same linkpearl next to their name to have conversation, joke around, etc.
In Lineage 2, Giran, Aden and other towns were often very active with chatter... and they weren't all in the same clan or alliance.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Ok i may be the onlyone feeling this but i have played the game for about a day now and it is imposible for me to talk to anyone. Good lord i say hi whats up and no one ever responds. I ask a question about crafting and carpentry and if they can make bows... no one responds untill i ask if anyone can even understand me... and then oh look some one finaly replies yea i can understand you...
Maybe the original poster is on to something.
if some random stranger ran up to me in the game and said, "hi, what's up" I'd be hesistant to reply, thinking, "yeah, whatever kid, I'm trying to play the game, go bug somebody else if you're looking for idle conversation."
If some random stranger starts shouting they want to know something about crafting and carpentry and if they can make bows, I'm going to be hesistant to reply, thinking, "Jebus kid, do you have any idea of the enormity of what you're saying? Crafting a bow is pretty serious business. Maybey ou should reference crafting website and get an idea. We're trying to play the game here."
And then they're like, "can anyone even understand me" and I'm like, "yeah, I can understand you..." hoping they'd take the hint that we're trying to play teh game here.
So I guess that makes me an introvert. It's not that I wouldn't lend a helping hand, but I sure want to see some evidence the person I'm talking to know what they're talking about. If everybody else playing the game feels the same way, I guess I'm among like company.
This "leave me alone until I am ready to grace you with my presence" attitude really kinda takes the second M out of MMO. Somehow over the years MMOs have become just large online single player games and I don't understand why. I personally play to socialize and group up with other people. Sure I do things on my own, but when someone asks a question, I usually try to answer if I can, whether I am busy or not.
I think telling someone to go to a website when they ask a question is complete BS. It frustrates me when I get that response to my questions. As a side note, it frustrates me when I am doing quests with a group and everyone goes to a website for complete walkthrough of the quest. You see, I prefer to play these games within the mechanics they were designed. And chatting and helping other people are part of the mechanics of these games. Logging out or alt-tabbing to visit a 3rd party website is not. Now I am not going to lie and say I have never visited websites, but it is after I have exhausted all my patience at trying to figure stuff out in-game.
So far I am loving FFXIV, but it needs a serious shot of community personality. No one talks, and that is just sad in an MMO. Now don't get me wrong. I don't want childish banter spewing out everywhere, but for the meer fact there are a couple thousand people not saying a damn thing or even wanting to talk has me a bit saddened.
Me and another person I have met in game have been doing a lot of leves together. We always shout out to try and find more people to group with, and usually only get 1, maybe 2 people to join us. That is not good when you can see 50 people standing around an aetheryte crystal, the guild leve sign flashing left and right, and no one wants to do anything together.
Ok i may be the onlyone feeling this but i have played the game for about a day now and it is imposible for me to talk to anyone. Good lord i say hi whats up and no one ever responds. I ask a question about crafting and carpentry and if they can make bows... no one responds untill i ask if anyone can even understand me... and then oh look some one finaly replies yea i can understand you...
Maybe the original poster is on to something.
if some random stranger ran up to me in the game and said, "hi, what's up" I'd be hesistant to reply, thinking, "yeah, whatever kid, I'm trying to play the game, go bug somebody else if you're looking for idle conversation."
If some random stranger starts shouting they want to know something about crafting and carpentry and if they can make bows, I'm going to be hesistant to reply, thinking, "Jebus kid, do you have any idea of the enormity of what you're saying? Crafting a bow is pretty serious business. Maybey ou should reference crafting website and get an idea. We're trying to play the game here."
And then they're like, "can anyone even understand me" and I'm like, "yeah, I can understand you..." hoping they'd take the hint that we're trying to play teh game here.
So I guess that makes me an introvert. It's not that I wouldn't lend a helping hand, but I sure want to see some evidence the person I'm talking to isn't just out to waste my time. If everybody else playing the game feels the same way, I guess I'm among like company.
Wow.
You're so dedicated to defending XIV against all criticism that you'll actually justify and condone an anti-social mentality from other players. You're seriously trying to justify players in XIV being anti-social?
Seriously, Geld... Is there *anything* to do with XIV someone could criticize that you won't find some way to spin or dismiss in your tireless defense of it? Anything at all?
What's funny is, back when XI first launched in the US, people would ask questions in /shout and there were plenty of people ready to answer, provide what help they could, or even say "I haven't figured that out yet, either".
When people are interested in being part of a community, they are not "bothered" by someone asking a question. And if XIV's community at large (ie. not linkshells) is really shaping up to be that un-friendly and that un-responsive when another player is asking a question.... not a good sign.
You largely missed the point of what I was saying - that in order to engage someone in conversation in an MMORPG, you should be as respectful to their needs as you are hoping they will be to yours.
Not only did I not miss your point, you're only underscoring it further in your reply.
Asking a question in /shout isn't "being respectful of others' needs"?Really?
In truth, Final Fantasy XIV isn't exactly the kind of game you're going to be able to rely upon others to get you through. If you can't at least show enough dedication to discover things for yourself, you're probably going to be a constant drain on others, always asking where this or that NPC, component, or recipe can be found.
The fact that you have to take the example to the most extreme - someone "relying on others for everything" - in order to make your point, only makes it that much weaker. I don't think we're talking about "someone asking for help with everything". We're talking about someone asking a question here and there.
So, asking a question in /shout in hopes someone could provide some helpful info is "relying upon others to get you through"? Is everyone supposed to be an island of one, never asking for outside help, but figuring everything out on their own, even when there are hundreds around them who could provide a quick answer and, you know, be community-like?
Do you actually feel that way?
Asking a question in /shout is not "relying upon others to get you through". It's asking a question that perhaps someone might know the answer to, just as you might have the answer to something someone else needs to know at some point. It's what an active, social MMO community does.
Question: You know the amazing community FFXI has often been cited as having over the years? That community started building from day 1, and it wasn't built on people "relying on themselves" and "not asking questions" so as to "remain respectful of others' needs", as though people are going to feel offended or "put out" by someone asking for help with something.
I've seen the same thing in Lineage 2. A bit more antagonistic, given the nature of the game, but a damn good community that game had for several years... they didn't get that way by "not asking questions" and "relying on themselves".
So, what you would call anti-social behavior, I would call justified given the context of the situation.
No, what you are doing is condoning and justifying anti-social behavior.
You think you have something, but you don't. I'm just going to have to leave it at that.
The thing is, you've tripped some warning flags with me here. It began when you started with a completely arbitrary interpretation of what I said. I did you the grace of attempting to clarify, but the result has been picking it apart in such a way that favors your interpretation. Nit picking is easy and, knowing this, I know that as long as this remains your intended mode of operation, it is inevitable that my continued efforts will only end in a fruitless argument.
As I'm rather put off from receiving warnings/bans for being lead astray thusly, I'm going to have to stop here.
I don't think I've ever played a multiplayer game with less chat. Sure part of it might be that the chat systems is awful, and typing gets interrupted by the UI when crafting, but I've played for hours without seeing anything in /say or /shout.
Join a linkshell.
Yes, join a clique of people and only talk to them. That's a wonderful way to build community in a game.
Sad what this genre has come to.
^^ Wrong. Linkshell is the only method of communicating accross long distances in this game. It is NOT a clique. You can join up to 8 and talk accross them all. Think of them as global chat channels. The other option is continue to try and communicate in a 50 foot radius around you.
I think what he meant was that people shouldn't have to resort to joining cliques, linkshells, guilds, groups, or whatever you want to call them, in order to talk to other users.
Bingo. That's precisely what I was getting at.
In Jeuno or Whitegate in FFXI, you'd see people chatting in local and /shout all the time. They didn't have to share the same linkpearl next to their name to have conversation, joke around, etc.
In Lineage 2, Giran, Aden and other towns were often very active with chatter... and they weren't all in the same clan or alliance.
Yes I see what your saying, but does it really matter what you think should be the way it is when it isn't an option? Seriously, if you want to socialize in FFXIV you HAVE to join a linkshell or chat with the people in a 50 foot radius of you ONLY. Now you can argue the need as much as you like, but it isnt' there, and you can't do it any other way. So why spend the time and effort arguing about it? If you want to socialize in FFXIV you join linkshells, period. Or, go play a different game that has it the way you want it.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Ok i may be the onlyone feeling this but i have played the game for about a day now and it is imposible for me to talk to anyone. Good lord i say hi whats up and no one ever responds. I ask a question about crafting and carpentry and if they can make bows... no one responds untill i ask if anyone can even understand me... and then oh look some one finaly replies yea i can understand you... and thats it... maybe there is a diferent chat channel or something that i am not aware of but i have never played a game befor where the chat window was like a ghost town.
The other side of the coin is that someone asks how to do something, and I reply giving them the answer. Then they ask the same question again as if they never saw me answer them. So I send them a whisper. And they continue asking or don't bother replying with a thanks.
With situations like that, I'll eventually give up with communication with non-linkshell players. Its happened to me several times now.
This "leave me alone until I am ready to grace you with my presence" attitude really kinda takes the second M out of MMO. Somehow over the years MMOs have become just large online single player games and I don't understand why. I personally play to socialize and group up with other people. Sure I do things on my own, but when someone asks a question, I usually try to answer if I can, whether I am busy or not.
I think telling someone to go to a website when they ask a question is complete BS. It frustrates me when I get that response to my questions. As a side note, it frustrates me when I am doing quests with a group and everyone goes to a website for complete walkthrough of the quest. You see, I prefer to play these games within the mechanics they were designed. And chatting and helping other people are part of the mechanics of these games. Logging out or alt-tabbing to visit a 3rd party website is not. Now I am not going to lie and say I have never visited websites, but it is after I have exhausted all my patience at trying to figure stuff out in-game.
So far I am loving FFXIV, but it needs a serious shot of community personality. No one talks, and that is just sad in an MMO. Now don't get me wrong. I don't want childish banter spewing out everywhere, but for the meer fact there are a couple thousand people not saying a damn thing or even wanting to talk has me a bit saddened.
Me and another person I have met in game have been doing a lot of leves together. We always shout out to try and find more people to group with, and usually only get 1, maybe 2 people to join us. That is not good when you can see 50 people standing around an aetheryte crystal, the guild leve sign flashing left and right, and no one wants to do anything together.
I have to say I agree with your points. I played 15 or 20 hours and only saw two lines of player communication:
"Does anyone know where to buy a conjurer weapon?" and
"Sorry, I don't know... I haven't seen any on the vendors I have checked." The second line was from me
Now I like challenging games, but should you have to go to a website to try to figure out simple UI things? Is there seriously a reason that you can't remap your keyboard any way you like? I keep seeing that they designed it for a gamepad - just deal with it or quit. Correct me if I am wrong, but can't you attach a USB keyboard to a PS3?
I was very disappointed in FFXIV. I guess I am not ready for 'new, sophistcated' game play.
Ok i may be the onlyone feeling this but i have played the game for about a day now and it is imposible for me to talk to anyone. Good lord i say hi whats up and no one ever responds. I ask a question about crafting and carpentry and if they can make bows... no one responds untill i ask if anyone can even understand me... and then oh look some one finaly replies yea i can understand you...
Maybe the original poster is on to something.
if some random stranger ran up to me in the game and said, "hi, what's up" I'd be hesistant to reply, thinking, "yeah, whatever kid, I'm trying to play the game, go bug somebody else if you're looking for idle conversation."
If some random stranger starts shouting they want to know something about crafting and carpentry and if they can make bows, I'm going to be hesistant to reply, thinking, "Jebus kid, do you have any idea of the enormity of what you're saying? Crafting a bow is pretty serious business. Maybey ou should reference crafting website and get an idea. We're trying to play the game here."
And then they're like, "can anyone even understand me" and I'm like, "yeah, I can understand you..." hoping they'd take the hint that we're trying to play teh game here.
So I guess that makes me an introvert. It's not that I wouldn't lend a helping hand, but I sure want to see some evidence the person I'm talking to isn't just out to waste my time. If everybody else playing the game feels the same way, I guess I'm among like company.
Wow.
You're so dedicated to defending XIV against all criticism that you'll actually justify and condone an anti-social mentality from other players. You're seriously trying to justify players in XIV being anti-social?
Seriously, Geld... Is there *anything* to do with XIV someone could criticize that you won't find some way to spin or dismiss in your tireless defense of it? Anything at all?
What's funny is, back when XI first launched in the US, people would ask questions in /shout and there were plenty of people ready to answer, provide what help they could, or even say "I haven't figured that out yet, either".
When people are interested in being part of a community, they are not "bothered" by someone asking a question. And if XIV's community at large (ie. not linkshells) is really shaping up to be that un-friendly and that un-responsive when another player is asking a question.... not a good sign.
You largely missed the point of what I was saying - that in order to engage someone in conversation in an MMORPG, you should be as respectful to their needs as you are hoping they will be to yours.
Not only did I not miss your point, you're only underscoring it further in your reply.
Asking a question in /shout isn't "being respectful of others' needs"?Really?
In truth, Final Fantasy XIV isn't exactly the kind of game you're going to be able to rely upon others to get you through. If you can't at least show enough dedication to discover things for yourself, you're probably going to be a constant drain on others, always asking where this or that NPC, component, or recipe can be found.
The fact that you have to take the example to the most extreme - someone "relying on others for everything" - in order to make your point, only makes it that much weaker. I don't think we're talking about "someone asking for help with everything". We're talking about someone asking a question here and there.
So, asking a question in /shout in hopes someone could provide some helpful info is "relying upon others to get you through"? Is everyone supposed to be an island of one, never asking for outside help, but figuring everything out on their own, even when there are hundreds around them who could provide a quick answer and, you know, be community-like?
Do you actually feel that way?
Asking a question in /shout is not "relying upon others to get you through". It's asking a question that perhaps someone might know the answer to, just as you might have the answer to something someone else needs to know at some point. It's what an active, social MMO community does.
Question: You know the amazing community FFXI has often been cited as having over the years? That community started building from day 1, and it wasn't built on people "relying on themselves" and "not asking questions" so as to "remain respectful of others' needs", as though people are going to feel offended or "put out" by someone asking for help with something.
I've seen the same thing in Lineage 2. A bit more antagonistic, given the nature of the game, but a damn good community that game had for several years... they didn't get that way by "not asking questions" and "relying on themselves".
So, what you would call anti-social behavior, I would call justified given the context of the situation.
No, what you are doing is condoning and justifying anti-social behavior.
You think you have something, but you don't. I'm just going to have to leave it at that.
The thing is, you've tripped some warning flags with me here. It began when you started with a completely arbitrary interpretation of what I said. I did you the grace of attempting to clarify, but the result has been picking it apart in such a way that favors your interpretation. Nit picking is easy and, knowing this, I know that as long as this remains your intended mode of operation, it is inevitable that my continued efforts will only end in a fruitless argument.
As I'm rather put off from receiving warnings/bans for being lead astray thusly, I'm going to have to stop here.
As far as I can tell from reading both sides, he read you like a book.
As far as I can tell from reading both sides, he read you like a book.
Care to elaborate?
Not worth the effort Geldon, dont let them bait you back in again man.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
You think you have something, but you don't. I'm just going to have to leave it at that.
The thing is, you've tripped some warning flags with me here. It began when you started with a completely arbitrary interpretation of what I said. I did you the grace of attempting to clarify, but the result has been picking it apart in such a way that favors your interpretation. Nit picking is easy and, knowing this, I know that as long as this remains your intended mode of operation, it is inevitable that my continued efforts will only end in a fruitless argument.
As I'm rather put off from receiving warnings/bans for being lead astray thusly, I'm going to have to stop here.
As far as I can tell from reading both sides, he read you like a book.
Whew, had to trim that quote-train down... and I couldn't agree with WSIMike more, about the entire thing.
Reading this entire thread, what I take from it is that the very nature of FFXIV's systems essentially foster this entire mentality. What people are saying is basically that "it's too complicated to explain, so I won't even bother". Combine that with - as others have pointed out - that everyone's too busy doing their own thing to help, and you end up without much of a "community" at all. Some folks feel that what's here is the lesser of two evils, but at the end of the day, they're both bad.
Also, linkshells or not, brushing off your fellow players for any reason is just sad. People tout themselves as being extremely patient by playing FFXIV, but they don't even have the patience to simply respond to someone. GG...
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
As far as I can tell from reading both sides, he read you like a book.
Care to elaborate?
There's really nothing more I can add that Mike didn't already say. If you're not able to understand what I'm referring to in his post, then explaining it myself won't change anything.
Well, let me put it another way: “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.” It's an old proverb, I'm sure most of you have heard it.
In most MMORPGs, you don't need to know a whole lot. You might have a few obscure things that you need help with, e.g. "Where's Mankirk's wife," but for the most part the greater bulk of the game is right there and accessible. Want your recipes? They're right there. Need to find a quest NPC? Look for the guy with the big glowing punctuation mark. You can humor answering the few questions that remain, because it's not like you're going to be swamped with them.
Final Fantasy XIV is not like that, many things are outside of the reach of what you've given, and many of its established players prefer it's that way. If you ask us a reasonable question, we'll be happy to answer you. However, the threshold of what accomodates a reasonable question is higher because there's so many more things the game doesn't give you that you have to figure out for yourself... if we made it a regular habit to answer these questions, we'd be swamped.
They need to learn to fish. We can't keep giving them fishes. It would happen so often that it would detract too heavily form the game and ruin our enjoyment of it.
So, as pertains specifically to the examples given by the original poster here, I can see why he might get snubbed. It seems to me that the specific questions he asked were a little under the necessary Final Fantasy XIV threshold. Except for that "hi there" thing... that's another can of worms entirely, an irrational demand of somebody to have a conversation with you when you may actually be busy with something else. Ever try talking while you're crafting in this game? Its not easy..
You could say to yourself, "oh, you're just making excuses. The community of Final Fantasy XIV sucks. Besides, we all know the chat interface is awkward and hard to use." However, this is a bit of the attitude of a silly tourist who pokes fun at the natives not realizing that there's very good reasons they do things differently there. Just because you're introverted doesn't mean you're anti-social.
On the contrary, we're considerably more close-knit than most since we have come to expect a more reasonable exchange between our individual members, since the majority of the impatient will have been driven off by our ponderous interface and having their pleas for easy answers fall of deaf ears long ago. I have to say, I consider perfect strangers in FFXIV with a sliver more respect than in most other MMORPGs knowing what kind of sensibilities they would have had to have had to be there.
Originally posted by alacres
Originally posted by geldonyetich
Originally posted by alacres
As far as I can tell from reading both sides, he read you like a book.
Care to elaborate?
There's really nothing more I can add that Mike didn't already say. If you're not able to understand what I'm referring to in his post, then explaining it myself won't change anything.
To be honest, I just wanted some proof you actually read it and weren't just chiming in to support him because you simply didn't like my tone.
It's not too often I see somebody write on a forum, "I read both sides and he read you like a book" and actually did it. It suggests some rather remarkable powers for somebody who merely read a few paragraphs.
You think you have something, but you don't. I'm just going to have to leave it at that.
The thing is, you've tripped some warning flags with me here. It began when you started with a completely arbitrary interpretation of what I said. I did you the grace of attempting to clarify, but the result has been picking it apart in such a way that favors your interpretation. Nit picking is easy and, knowing this, I know that as long as this remains your intended mode of operation, it is inevitable that my continued efforts will only end in a fruitless argument.
As I'm rather put off from receiving warnings/bans for being lead astray thusly, I'm going to have to stop here.
As far as I can tell from reading both sides, he read you like a book.
Whew, had to trim that quote-train down... and I couldn't agree with WSIMike more, about the entire thing.
Reading this entire thread, what I take from it is that the very nature of FFXIV's systems essentially foster this entire mentality. What people are saying is basically that "it's too complicated to explain, so I won't even bother". Combine that with - as others have pointed out - that everyone's too busy doing their own thing to help, and you end up without much of a "community" at all. Some folks feel that what's here is the lesser of two evils, but at the end of the day, they're both bad.
Also, linkshells or not, brushing off your fellow players for any reason is just sad. People tout themselves as being extremely patient by playing FFXIV, but they don't even have the patience to simply respond to someone. GG...
Well, let me put it another way: “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.” It's an old proverb, I'm sure most of you have heard it.
In most MMORPGs, you don't need to know a whole lot. You might have a few obscure things that you need help with, e.g. "Where's Mankirk's wife," but for the most part the greater bulk of the game is right there and accessible. Want your recipes? They're right there. Need to find a quest NPC? Look for the guy with the big glowing punctuation mark. You can humor answering the few questions that remain, because it's not like you're going to be swamped with them.
Final Fantasy XIV is not like that, many things are outside of the reach of what you've given, and many of its established players prefer it's that way. If you ask us a reasonable question, we'll be happy to answer you. However, the threshold of what accomodates a reasonable question is higher because there's so many more things the game doesn't give you that you have to figure out for yourself... if we made it a regular habit to answer these questions, we'd be swamped.
They need to learn to fish. We can't keep giving them fishes. It would happen so often that it would detract too heavily form the game and ruin our enjoyment of it.
So, as pertains specifically to the examples given by the original poster here, I can see why he might get snubbed. It seems to me that the specific questions he asked were a little under the necessary Final Fantasy XIV threshold. Except for that "hi there" thing... that's another can of worms entirely, the irrational demanding somebody have a conversation with you when you may be busy with something else (which is especially what if they happen to be crafting or something).
You could say to yourself, "oh, you're just making excuses. The community of Final Fantasy XIV sucks. Besides, we all know the chat interface is awkward and hard to use." However, this is a bit of the attitude of a silly tourist who pokes fun at the natives not realizing that there's very good reasons they do things differently there. Just because you're introverted doesn't mean you're anti-social.
On the contrary, we're considerably more close-knit than most since we have come to expect a more reasonable exchange between our individual members, since the majority of the impatient will have been driven off by our ponderous interface and having their pleas for easy answers fall of deaf ears long ago. I have to say, I consider perfect strangers in FFXIV with a sliver more respect than in most other MMORPGs knowing what kind of sensibilities they would have had to have had to be there.
Originally posted by alacres
Originally posted by geldonyetich
Originally posted by alacres
As far as I can tell from reading both sides, he read you like a book.
Care to elaborate?
There's really nothing more I can add that Mike didn't already say. If you're not able to understand what I'm referring to in his post, then explaining it myself won't change anything.
To be honest, I just wanted some proof you actually read it and weren't just chiming in to support him because you simply didn't like my tone.
Considering that I've had disagreements with Mike myself in the past (as you can see in my post history), you can rest assured that's not the case.
"It's not too often I see somebody write on a forum, "I read both sides and he read you like a book" and actually did it. It suggests some rather remarkable powers for somebody who merely read a few paragraphs."
Well then, I'll be more specific - he read you like a book in the context of what you were both discussing in this particular thread.
As far as I can tell from reading both sides, he read you like a book.
Care to elaborate?
There's really nothing more I can add that Mike didn't already say. If you're not able to understand what I'm referring to in his post, then explaining it myself won't change anything.
To be honest, I just wanted some proof you actually read it and weren't just chiming in to support him because you simply didn't like my tone.
Considering that I've had disagreements with Mike myself in the past (as you can see in my post history), you can rest assured that's not the case.
"It's not too often I see somebody write on a forum, "I read both sides and he read you like a book" and actually did it. It suggests some rather remarkable powers for somebody who merely read a few paragraphs."
Well then, I'll be more specific - he read you like a book in the context of what you were both discussing in this particular thread.
-Edited for your edit-
Ugh, this is beginning to read like another thing I shouldn't get involved in.
"He read you like a book."
"Care to elaborate?"
"That thing he said was right."
"Just give me some proof you actually read it. Just seems a little remarkable, this claim you're making."
"No, trust me, I hate that guy, that means I read him. My claim is not remarkable because he read you like a book in that message I promise I read."
Well, let me put it another way: “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.” It's an old proverb, I'm sure most of you have heard it.
In most MMORPGs, you don't need to know a whole lot. You might have a few obscure things that you need help with, e.g. "Where's Mankirk's wife," but for the most part the greater bulk of the game is right there and accessible. Want your recipes? They're right there. Need to find a quest NPC? Look for the guy with the big glowing punctuation mark. You can humor answering the few questions that remain, because it's not like you're going to be swamped with them.
Final Fantasy XIV is not like that, many things are outside of the reach of what you've given, and many of its established players prefer it's that way. If you ask us a reasonable question, we'll be happy to answer you. However, the threshold of what accomodates a reasonable question is higher because there's so many more things the game doesn't give you that you have to figure out for yourself... if we made it a regular habit to answer these questions, we'd be swamped.
They need to learn to fish. We can't keep giving them fishes. It would happen so often that it would detract too heavily form the game and ruin our enjoyment of it.
So, as pertains specifically to the examples given by the original poster here, I can see why he might get snubbed. It seems to me that the specific questions he asked were a little under the necessary Final Fantasy XIV threshold. Except for that "hi there" thing... that's another can of worms entirely, the irrational demanding somebody have a conversation with you when you may be busy with something else (which is especially what if they happen to be crafting or something).
You could say to yourself, "oh, you're just making excuses. The community of Final Fantasy XIV sucks. Besides, we all know the chat interface is awkward and hard to use." However, this is a bit of the attitude of a silly tourist who pokes fun at the natives not realizing that there's very good reasons they do things differently there. Just because you're introverted doesn't mean you're anti-social.
On the contrary, we're considerably more close-knit than most since we have come to expect a more reasonable exchange between our individual members, since the majority of the impatient will have been driven off by our ponderous interface and having their pleas for easy answers fall of deaf ears long ago.
So, what in your words would be a reasonable question, one that doesn't cross that 'threshold' ?
You make it sound like FFXIV is more akin to some sophisticated members only club where someone who asks a question is considered riff-raff who shouldn't have even gotten through the front gates.
In other posts you claim FFXIV was more 'old school' than most mmos today, or that it appeals more to the old school crowd. Back in the old school MMOs, when someone asked a question you would have people willing to answer. In old school MMOs you had conversations with other players who weren't in your guild. In old school MMOs you had a community much like the communities found in MMOs today. You had the loud mouths, the helpful, etc. Apparently FFXIV's community isn't anything more than some private club from the way you explain it.
Another question, do you speak for everyone in game? Because you use 'we' as though you are some sort of elected representative.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Final Fantasy XIV is not like that, many things are outside of the reach of what you've given, and many of its established players prefer it's that way. If you ask us a reasonable question, we'll be happy to answer you. However, the threshold of what accomodates a reasonable question is higher because there's so many more things the game doesn't give you that you have to figure out for yourself... if we made it a regular habit to answer these questions, we'd be swamped.
They need to learn to fish. We can't keep giving them fishes. It would happen so often that it would detract too heavily form the game and ruin our enjoyment of it.
So, what in your words would be a reasonable question, one that doesn't cross that 'threshold' ?
One that demonstrates they've at least taken the time to try to answer the question for themselves. As players of the game, we've a pretty good idea of the kind of data you can find easily on the typical resources.
Originally posted by fyerwall
You make it sound like FFXIV is more akin to some sophisticated members only club where someone who asks a question is considered riff-raff who shouldn't have even gotten through the front gates.
It would make a lot of haters happy for me to say that. However, it's a bit of a jump from what I actually said: that this game has enough information not immediately accessible that it becomes a matter of required player conduct to try a little harder to seek answers before bugging other players about it.
Originally posted by fyerwall
In other posts you claim FFXIV was more 'old school' than most mmos today, or that it appeals more to the old school crowd. Back in the old school MMOs, when someone asked a question you would have people willing to answer. In old school MMOs you had conversations with other players who weren't in your guild. In old school MMOs you had a community much like the communities found in MMOs today. You had the loud mouths, the helpful, etc. Apparently FFXIV's community isn't anything more than some private club from the way you explain it.
If you say so. I find that assumption to be rather hasty.
Originally posted by fyerwall
Another question, do you speak for everyone in game? Because you use 'we' as though you are some sort of elected representative.
You're actually asking me if I speak for everyone in the game? Of course not. I speak as a regular player of the game who is able to draw some theories as to what would drive the behavior experienced by the original poster. Try not to lose the context in which i was replying, underlined in the previous sentence. Naturally, some players will be more helpful than others, and this is the case on any MMORPG.
Sheesh, now I know how public figures feel when they're being grilled by news hounds who are hoping to get them to admit to being something they're not. This will probably be followed up by, "didn't you say that FFXIV players are expected to do more research?" Uh, yeah. "AH HA! FFXIV players are snobs!" Uh, no, the game just puts less information in the client and it'd be a real hassle if they didn't- "Silence, snob, the people have spoken!"
Well, let me put it another way: “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.” It's an old proverb, I'm sure most of you have heard it.
In most MMORPGs, you don't need to know a whole lot. You might have a few obscure things that you need help with, e.g. "Where's Mankirk's wife," but for the most part the greater bulk of the game is right there and accessible. Want your recipes? They're right there. Need to find a quest NPC? Look for the guy with the big glowing punctuation mark. You can humor answering the few questions that remain, because it's not like you're going to be swamped with them.
Final Fantasy XIV is not like that, many things are outside of the reach of what you've given, and many of its established players prefer it's that way. If you ask us a reasonable question, we'll be happy to answer you. However, the threshold of what accomodates a reasonable question is higher because there's so many more things the game doesn't give you that you have to figure out for yourself... if we made it a regular habit to answer these questions, we'd be swamped.
They need to learn to fish. We can't keep giving them fishes. It would happen so often that it would detract too heavily form the game and ruin our enjoyment of it.
So, as pertains specifically to the examples given by the original poster here, I can see why he might get snubbed. It seems to me that the specific questions he asked were a little under the necessary Final Fantasy XIV threshold. Except for that "hi there" thing... that's another can of worms entirely, the irrational demanding somebody have a conversation with you when you may be busy with something else (which is especially what if they happen to be crafting or something).
You could say to yourself, "oh, you're just making excuses. The community of Final Fantasy XIV sucks. Besides, we all know the chat interface is awkward and hard to use." However, this is a bit of the attitude of a silly tourist who pokes fun at the natives not realizing that there's very good reasons they do things differently there. Just because you're introverted doesn't mean you're anti-social.
On the contrary, we're considerably more close-knit than most since we have come to expect a more reasonable exchange between our individual members, since the majority of the impatient will have been driven off by our ponderous interface and having their pleas for easy answers fall of deaf ears long ago.
So, what in your words would be a reasonable question, one that doesn't cross that 'threshold' ?
You make it sound like FFXIV is more akin to some sophisticated members only club where someone who asks a question is considered riff-raff who shouldn't have even gotten through the front gates.
In other posts you claim FFXIV was more 'old school' than most mmos today, or that it appeals more to the old school crowd. Back in the old school MMOs, when someone asked a question you would have people willing to answer. In old school MMOs you had conversations with other players who weren't in your guild. In old school MMOs you had a community much like the communities found in MMOs today. You had the loud mouths, the helpful, etc. Apparently FFXIV's community isn't anything more than some private club from the way you explain it.
Another question, do you speak for everyone in game? Because you use 'we' as though you are some sort of elected representative.
Actually, I'll go ahead and include myself in the 'we' Geldon was saying there if that helps answer your question some.
Here is what FFXIV is, for those of you who just dont get it (which is becoming more and more obvious with every post on these forums).
Your character has no background, well at least one you know anyway. Your literally dropped into a world you know nothing about, and which you have to learn on your own. The learning about yourself, your world, and whats happening in it IS the point of the game. NOT what quests you have available to you, how long it takes you to reach end game, what is end game, where do I get my next gear upgrade, who sells my sword, why doesn't anyone help me!!
No, all that is the game, learning all that is what your supposed to be doing. Its exactly why all these people think there is nothing in this game to do, because you looked right past the point of it all. Its like being dropped into the game Myst and expecting someone in there to give you a freaking tutorial and step by step directions on how to procede. Its not there, thats the point. You are an unknown in an unknown world and you have to find your way. And no, nobody should be required to help you at every turn.
If you want help then you have to be willing to help yourself first. If thats too much to ask from you, well then it really is true that this game isnt' for you. If thats anti-social then so be, but really. If I'm in my crafting position and have 10k worth of mats under the gun on a synth, and you come by and ask a question, well you should expect to wait for a reply until I'm done with my synth. If you get all pissy because I didnt abort my synth to answer you well then I guess your just going to be all pissy because I'm not going to toss my 10k away just to answer you in a timely manner. You should understand how the system works and be willing to work within it.
And yes, quite honestly, most who are playing this game realize it does take a bit of self reliance to get going and stay going in it. And with that they expect others to exhibit some of that same self reliance. That isnt' too much to ask in my opinion. I'm not going to hold everyones hand just because they aren't willing to go look for themselves first. But if you do, and still are stuck then sure I'll help any way I can. Its like the guy that joins your guild and from minute one is asking for handouts on everything. You help them once, then point them towards the 'how' to get it themselves, if they learn to work for themselves you continue to help them when they are in need later. If they still go for the handouts, they get cut off or booted. Thats life sorry.
This isn't old school or new school, it isnt' anti-social, its gaming. Always has been this way, always will be.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
One that demonstrates they've at least taken the time to try to answer the question for themselves. As players of the game, we've a pretty good idea of the kind of data you can find easily on the typical resources.
You're actually asking me if I speak for everyone in the game? Of course not. I speak as a regular player of the game who is able to draw some theories as to what would drive the behavior experienced by the original poster. Try not to lose the context in which i was replying, underlined in the previous sentence. Naturally, some players will be more helpful than others, and this is the case on any MMORPG.
Sheesh, now I know how public figures feel when they're being grilled by news hounds who are hoping to get them to admit to being something they're not. This will probably be followed up by, "didn't you say that FFXIV players are expected to do more research?" Uh, yeah. "AH HA! FFXIV players are snobs!" Uh, no, the game just puts less information in the client and it'd be a real hassle if they didn't- "Silence, snob, the people have spoken!"
Here's the problem appears to be: you, and most of the people who dislike the in game community have wildly different views on what a game should be.
Personally I want a game to have enough information within the client for me to know how to do basic things. I want to know where certain merchants are. I want a way to figure out how to craft certain things. I want to know what stats do, and what certain combat mechanics are. And yes, I would like some sort of description of where I can find quest NPCs or mobs. If this information is not provided in one form or another (and no I am not asking for a big arrow pointing me to my destination), then I feel it is appropriate to ask others. Yes, I could go to one of the sites dedicated to FFXIV information, guides, etc. and find what I need, but I don't feel I should have to.
If I go up to a group of crafters and ask them where a certain merchant is located, I expect an answer. That being said I wouldn't expect them to explain the crafting system to me, or to give me the recipe for a bow, as that does take more effort than most people are willing to give in order to help a stranger. Even then I would expect at least one of them to say something like "go check out ffxiv loadstone".
I should be able to at least get into a game and enjoy some basic elements without checking wikis and guides along the way.
Comments
Come to? That's how it's been since 2004. It's a shame, but the genre "came to" this 6 years ago. I'm looking forward to GW2, but it seems to be taking the genre even further down the path of clique/elitism with the questing system. At least in FFXIV you still need to talk to people to grind/do leves.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I'm not saying I want my chat box to be constantly filled. I'm saying that I don't want the game to feel like it's just me and my LS. For example if I'm about to start a levee , I may want to do a pug from time to time or when the rest of my LS is busy. A couple of days ago I was running by and saw a player asking two blacksmiths where he could buy a blacksmithing tool. They simply ignored him (I answered him once it was obvious they would not). And yes, that was a legitimate question considering NPCs, especially merchants can be a pain in the ass to find. Players shouldn't have to search databases to find a merchant.
I highly doubt that I will ever return to the game, and the terrible in game community is a big reason why.
^^ Wrong. Linkshell is the only method of communicating accross long distances in this game. It is NOT a clique. You can join up to 8 and talk accross them all. Think of them as global chat channels. The other option is continue to try and communicate in a 50 foot radius around you.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I think what he meant was that people shouldn't have to resort to joining cliques, linkshells, guilds, groups, or whatever you want to call them, in order to talk to other users.
IMO EQ2s chat system is still better than anything out there. You only want to your guild? sure you can do that. You want to join a chan devoted to nothing but your guilds combat parses? sure you can do that. You want to join a level appropriate, class appropriate, zone, etc. chat? you can do that.
Bingo. That's precisely what I was getting at.
In Jeuno or Whitegate in FFXI, you'd see people chatting in local and /shout all the time. They didn't have to share the same linkpearl next to their name to have conversation, joke around, etc.
In Lineage 2, Giran, Aden and other towns were often very active with chatter... and they weren't all in the same clan or alliance.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
LOL, And the hits just keep coming.
You think you have something, but you don't. I'm just going to have to leave it at that.
The thing is, you've tripped some warning flags with me here. It began when you started with a completely arbitrary interpretation of what I said. I did you the grace of attempting to clarify, but the result has been picking it apart in such a way that favors your interpretation. Nit picking is easy and, knowing this, I know that as long as this remains your intended mode of operation, it is inevitable that my continued efforts will only end in a fruitless argument.
As I'm rather put off from receiving warnings/bans for being lead astray thusly, I'm going to have to stop here.
Yes I see what your saying, but does it really matter what you think should be the way it is when it isn't an option? Seriously, if you want to socialize in FFXIV you HAVE to join a linkshell or chat with the people in a 50 foot radius of you ONLY. Now you can argue the need as much as you like, but it isnt' there, and you can't do it any other way. So why spend the time and effort arguing about it? If you want to socialize in FFXIV you join linkshells, period. Or, go play a different game that has it the way you want it.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
The other side of the coin is that someone asks how to do something, and I reply giving them the answer. Then they ask the same question again as if they never saw me answer them. So I send them a whisper. And they continue asking or don't bother replying with a thanks.
With situations like that, I'll eventually give up with communication with non-linkshell players. Its happened to me several times now.
Melbourne Developer Group Recruitment - http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/328931/Melbourne-Game-Development-Group-Recruitment.html
I have to say I agree with your points. I played 15 or 20 hours and only saw two lines of player communication:
"Does anyone know where to buy a conjurer weapon?" and
"Sorry, I don't know... I haven't seen any on the vendors I have checked." The second line was from me
Now I like challenging games, but should you have to go to a website to try to figure out simple UI things? Is there seriously a reason that you can't remap your keyboard any way you like? I keep seeing that they designed it for a gamepad - just deal with it or quit. Correct me if I am wrong, but can't you attach a USB keyboard to a PS3?
I was very disappointed in FFXIV. I guess I am not ready for 'new, sophistcated' game play.
As far as I can tell from reading both sides, he read you like a book.
Care to elaborate?
Not worth the effort Geldon, dont let them bait you back in again man.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Whew, had to trim that quote-train down... and I couldn't agree with WSIMike more, about the entire thing.
Reading this entire thread, what I take from it is that the very nature of FFXIV's systems essentially foster this entire mentality. What people are saying is basically that "it's too complicated to explain, so I won't even bother". Combine that with - as others have pointed out - that everyone's too busy doing their own thing to help, and you end up without much of a "community" at all. Some folks feel that what's here is the lesser of two evils, but at the end of the day, they're both bad.
Also, linkshells or not, brushing off your fellow players for any reason is just sad. People tout themselves as being extremely patient by playing FFXIV, but they don't even have the patience to simply respond to someone. GG...
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
There's really nothing more I can add that Mike didn't already say. If you're not able to understand what I'm referring to in his post, then explaining it myself won't change anything.
Well, let me put it another way: “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.” It's an old proverb, I'm sure most of you have heard it.
In most MMORPGs, you don't need to know a whole lot. You might have a few obscure things that you need help with, e.g. "Where's Mankirk's wife," but for the most part the greater bulk of the game is right there and accessible. Want your recipes? They're right there. Need to find a quest NPC? Look for the guy with the big glowing punctuation mark. You can humor answering the few questions that remain, because it's not like you're going to be swamped with them.
Final Fantasy XIV is not like that, many things are outside of the reach of what you've given, and many of its established players prefer it's that way. If you ask us a reasonable question, we'll be happy to answer you. However, the threshold of what accomodates a reasonable question is higher because there's so many more things the game doesn't give you that you have to figure out for yourself... if we made it a regular habit to answer these questions, we'd be swamped.
They need to learn to fish. We can't keep giving them fishes. It would happen so often that it would detract too heavily form the game and ruin our enjoyment of it.
So, as pertains specifically to the examples given by the original poster here, I can see why he might get snubbed. It seems to me that the specific questions he asked were a little under the necessary Final Fantasy XIV threshold. Except for that "hi there" thing... that's another can of worms entirely, an irrational demand of somebody to have a conversation with you when you may actually be busy with something else. Ever try talking while you're crafting in this game? Its not easy..
You could say to yourself, "oh, you're just making excuses. The community of Final Fantasy XIV sucks. Besides, we all know the chat interface is awkward and hard to use." However, this is a bit of the attitude of a silly tourist who pokes fun at the natives not realizing that there's very good reasons they do things differently there. Just because you're introverted doesn't mean you're anti-social.
On the contrary, we're considerably more close-knit than most since we have come to expect a more reasonable exchange between our individual members, since the majority of the impatient will have been driven off by our ponderous interface and having their pleas for easy answers fall of deaf ears long ago. I have to say, I consider perfect strangers in FFXIV with a sliver more respect than in most other MMORPGs knowing what kind of sensibilities they would have had to have had to be there.
To be honest, I just wanted some proof you actually read it and weren't just chiming in to support him because you simply didn't like my tone.
It's not too often I see somebody write on a forum, "I read both sides and he read you like a book" and actually did it. It suggests some rather remarkable powers for somebody who merely read a few paragraphs.
Amen.
Considering that I've had disagreements with Mike myself in the past (as you can see in my post history), you can rest assured that's not the case.
"It's not too often I see somebody write on a forum, "I read both sides and he read you like a book" and actually did it. It suggests some rather remarkable powers for somebody who merely read a few paragraphs."
Well then, I'll be more specific - he read you like a book in the context of what you were both discussing in this particular thread.
-Edited for your edit-
Ugh, this is beginning to read like another thing I shouldn't get involved in.
"He read you like a book."
"Care to elaborate?"
"That thing he said was right."
"Just give me some proof you actually read it. Just seems a little remarkable, this claim you're making."
"No, trust me, I hate that guy, that means I read him. My claim is not remarkable because he read you like a book in that message I promise I read."
"I'm brimming with confidence, somehow."
So, what in your words would be a reasonable question, one that doesn't cross that 'threshold' ?
You make it sound like FFXIV is more akin to some sophisticated members only club where someone who asks a question is considered riff-raff who shouldn't have even gotten through the front gates.
In other posts you claim FFXIV was more 'old school' than most mmos today, or that it appeals more to the old school crowd. Back in the old school MMOs, when someone asked a question you would have people willing to answer. In old school MMOs you had conversations with other players who weren't in your guild. In old school MMOs you had a community much like the communities found in MMOs today. You had the loud mouths, the helpful, etc. Apparently FFXIV's community isn't anything more than some private club from the way you explain it.
Another question, do you speak for everyone in game? Because you use 'we' as though you are some sort of elected representative.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
One that demonstrates they've at least taken the time to try to answer the question for themselves. As players of the game, we've a pretty good idea of the kind of data you can find easily on the typical resources.
It would make a lot of haters happy for me to say that. However, it's a bit of a jump from what I actually said: that this game has enough information not immediately accessible that it becomes a matter of required player conduct to try a little harder to seek answers before bugging other players about it.
If you say so. I find that assumption to be rather hasty.
You're actually asking me if I speak for everyone in the game? Of course not. I speak as a regular player of the game who is able to draw some theories as to what would drive the behavior experienced by the original poster. Try not to lose the context in which i was replying, underlined in the previous sentence. Naturally, some players will be more helpful than others, and this is the case on any MMORPG.
Sheesh, now I know how public figures feel when they're being grilled by news hounds who are hoping to get them to admit to being something they're not. This will probably be followed up by, "didn't you say that FFXIV players are expected to do more research?" Uh, yeah. "AH HA! FFXIV players are snobs!" Uh, no, the game just puts less information in the client and it'd be a real hassle if they didn't- "Silence, snob, the people have spoken!"
Actually, I'll go ahead and include myself in the 'we' Geldon was saying there if that helps answer your question some.
Here is what FFXIV is, for those of you who just dont get it (which is becoming more and more obvious with every post on these forums).
Your character has no background, well at least one you know anyway. Your literally dropped into a world you know nothing about, and which you have to learn on your own. The learning about yourself, your world, and whats happening in it IS the point of the game. NOT what quests you have available to you, how long it takes you to reach end game, what is end game, where do I get my next gear upgrade, who sells my sword, why doesn't anyone help me!!
No, all that is the game, learning all that is what your supposed to be doing. Its exactly why all these people think there is nothing in this game to do, because you looked right past the point of it all. Its like being dropped into the game Myst and expecting someone in there to give you a freaking tutorial and step by step directions on how to procede. Its not there, thats the point. You are an unknown in an unknown world and you have to find your way. And no, nobody should be required to help you at every turn.
If you want help then you have to be willing to help yourself first. If thats too much to ask from you, well then it really is true that this game isnt' for you. If thats anti-social then so be, but really. If I'm in my crafting position and have 10k worth of mats under the gun on a synth, and you come by and ask a question, well you should expect to wait for a reply until I'm done with my synth. If you get all pissy because I didnt abort my synth to answer you well then I guess your just going to be all pissy because I'm not going to toss my 10k away just to answer you in a timely manner. You should understand how the system works and be willing to work within it.
And yes, quite honestly, most who are playing this game realize it does take a bit of self reliance to get going and stay going in it. And with that they expect others to exhibit some of that same self reliance. That isnt' too much to ask in my opinion. I'm not going to hold everyones hand just because they aren't willing to go look for themselves first. But if you do, and still are stuck then sure I'll help any way I can. Its like the guy that joins your guild and from minute one is asking for handouts on everything. You help them once, then point them towards the 'how' to get it themselves, if they learn to work for themselves you continue to help them when they are in need later. If they still go for the handouts, they get cut off or booted. Thats life sorry.
This isn't old school or new school, it isnt' anti-social, its gaming. Always has been this way, always will be.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Here's the problem appears to be: you, and most of the people who dislike the in game community have wildly different views on what a game should be.
Personally I want a game to have enough information within the client for me to know how to do basic things. I want to know where certain merchants are. I want a way to figure out how to craft certain things. I want to know what stats do, and what certain combat mechanics are. And yes, I would like some sort of description of where I can find quest NPCs or mobs. If this information is not provided in one form or another (and no I am not asking for a big arrow pointing me to my destination), then I feel it is appropriate to ask others. Yes, I could go to one of the sites dedicated to FFXIV information, guides, etc. and find what I need, but I don't feel I should have to.
If I go up to a group of crafters and ask them where a certain merchant is located, I expect an answer. That being said I wouldn't expect them to explain the crafting system to me, or to give me the recipe for a bow, as that does take more effort than most people are willing to give in order to help a stranger. Even then I would expect at least one of them to say something like "go check out ffxiv loadstone".
I should be able to at least get into a game and enjoy some basic elements without checking wikis and guides along the way.