You can't just label a game hardcore because it is tedius and takes "extra" time. Calling this game hard core is almost like trying to excuse the game.
Alot of people have been throwing around that FFXIV is 'hardcore' and many are taking that as some type of excuse for the game to have flaws. That having a lack of direction equals hardcore and that makes it ok. That having a confusing GUI is hardcore and that makes it ok.
If you're desribing it in a vacuum, I could see your definition as being "passable" for FFXIV.
Since you bring FFXI into the equation in your post however, FFXIV doesn't even come close. In that context, I'd say FFXIV is "hardcore lite".
There's a number of safety-nets in XIV as well that, in my opinion, would be considerably "un-hardcore".
1. Roads are completely safe to travel... no danger of dying, it's a walk in the park. I traveled from Gridania to Ishtar, Gridania to Limsa Lominsa and from Ul'dah to both other starting cities... never a hint of danger on any of those trips. Just a lot of running through repetitive landscape. This is *not* the case in FFXI at a low level; it's actually a big deal getting to Jeuno for the first time because of how dangerous the road is. In FFXIV, SE have pretty much laid out a red carpet between all 4 locations.
2. No risk of losing xp or levels for dying, and the death sickness, even without the onion helm, is minor; it's almost gone by the time you get back to your hunting spot. Thus, I noticed people being a lot more careless and willing to simply barge into bad situations without pause because... hey... death isn't a big deal. An awful lot like certain other "casual" games, actually.
... and that's just a couple examples I can list off the top of my head.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
soliders in afghanistan would call us all themepark players probably...no matter your "game"
No they would call us civilians.
This is an mmo forum, about mmo games. Speaking about hardcore is speaking about it in terms of mmos, not in terms of flying jet fighters or engaging the enemy or any of the other multitude of tasks that people face everyday in the real world.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The whole fatigue incident shows this game is not hardcore. You can break it down all you want, the game is simply not designed to it's fullest potential. Not even close.
you might say that they do not exist, but someone that views those extremes as hardcore would say your idea of hardcore is not hardcore....as someone playing the farm game on facebook might think their game is hardcore....hardcore is relative...to try to claim one is more hardcore than another is very subjective to what one individual thinks is hardcore.
Hardcore is subjective in exactly the same way difficult is subject. Someone may find one task more difficult than someone else but there tends to be a common consensus was to what constitutes difficulty within a specific genre/theme.
Take two average people talking about sports, whilst one may find swimming more difficult than the other, both are likely to agree that swimming one mile is less difficult than swimming one mile through shark infested waters.
I'm sure someone playing the farm game on facebook may find it hardcore, if the game then added the ability for players to kill each other whilst they were trying to complete tasks (or whatever the feck they do on that game) do you think the same person would find it less or more hardcore, i'm betting it would be the latter.
As to the first part, well given that we are talking about mmos and more importantly mmos that exist, whether someone thinks something is not hardcore unless your family is gunned down every time your avatar gets hit by an npc really is a moot point.
I think the swimmer would call swimming with the sharks stupid....and the farm game player would say the game is now not fun because it removes the strategy.
Killing or being killed by others is not the only thing that makes something hardcore.
Eve Online even without PvP would still be hardcore in playing the market to make money. Myst never had killing and solving some of the stuff without a guide is hardcore. Just because a game does not have PvP does not mean it is not hardcore.....adding PvP just to make it "hardcore" in your eyes can ruin the "hardcore" that is already in the game and make it not more hardcore, but more crappy.
I think the swimmer would call swimming with the sharks stupid....and the farm game player would say the game is now not fun because it removes the strategy.
Killing or being killed by others is not the only thing that makes something hardcore.
Eve Online even without PvP would still be hardcore in playing the market to make money. Myst never had killing and solving some of the stuff without a guide is hardcore. Just because a game does not have PvP does not mean it is not hardcore.....adding PvP just to make it "hardcore" in your eyes can ruin the "hardcore" that is already in the game and make it not more hardcore, but more crappy.
The analogy stands, one is more difficult/has more risk involved than the other and as such can be considered more hardcore. That some people may not like ffa pvp is a moot point. Furthermore how would adding ffa pvp reduce strategy, if anything it will increase it.
Killing or being killed by others is not the only thing that makes something hardcore, no, but it increases the nature of that and as such for an mmo to be considered truly hardcore it should have ffa pvp.
Playing the markets in EVE online would be far easier as there would be little risk in moving commodities about. Whatever way you look at it the added dynamic of ffa pvp adds that extra element to a game which makes it more hardcore.
Hardcore is about depth, difficulty and risk. A game with ffa pvp does not have to reduce depth (look at EVE), but it does add difficulty and risk and as such ffa games are the more hardcore.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Alot of people have been throwing around that FFXIV is 'hardcore' and many are taking that as some type of excuse for the game to have flaws. That having a lack of direction equals hardcore and that makes it ok. That having a confusing GUI is hardcore and that makes it ok.
This isn't what the people who use the word 'hardcore' are trying to say.
I believe anyone who has played FFXI for a long period of time understands the definition of hardcore, but its hard to put into words. I'm going to try to though.
As an example, I was talking to my coworker who is a big gamer as well about FFXIV and I mentioned FFXIV does not sell anything but basic items and low end gear at NPCs, and that everything must be crafted. He responded 'wow, thats hardcore'.
My coworker gets it.
Basically, 'hardcore' is a term that means the game does not hand you good gear, money, or levels on a silver platter where anyone can just take them on a whim. All those things require effort, and a substantial amount.
Now, you may be saying 'well every game requires effort to do those things, it took me so and so hours to get from this level to that in this game'. The type of effort I'm speaking of is a bit different. The effort I am speaking of is not brute force effort, but something that also requires a bit of skill, thinking, and research.
WoW, for example, is not hardcore. This is because you can make due with brute forcing through WoW. You can grinding the quests, farm the loot, and be the best. Your crafting recipes are there is a book, every material is within reach as long as you are of the level, and success or failure is pretty basic. While I'm aware its not always true, good gear generally equals a better player.
This is a bit moot point though as I know few would say WoW is hardcore. Although, I will say that WoWs endgame raiding (at least in BC as thats as far as I played) is hardcore, and youll see why.
Aion then. Aion is also not hardcore. Again, due to the fact you can grind through like a machine, leveling, collecting gear, and ending up more powerful. Crafting is basically doing the repeatables from the crafting guilds over and over to skill up and rarely making anything that is better than what you can get as a drop.
You cannot brute force through FFXI. Making a good setup party, performing skillchains, and acquiring good gear all requires work. Naturally, this work ends up taking time. This is why hardcore is sometimes argued to 'just mean things take awhile'. I agree, they do kind of go hand in hand, but just because a game forces you to take time to do something does not make it hardcore. Its not a two way street.
Similarly, this is why FFXIV is hardcore. The constraints on quests, complex crafting, and everything being sort of a minigame, is why this people call this game that. Hardcore has to do with the games systems and how you get things accomplished. You cannot plow through FFXIV, which is where I think many of the complaints come from and why people respond "well, FFXIV is hardcore", and thus this misconception started.
As a sidenote, a GUI cannot be hardcore. A GUI is a GUI and is either easy to navigate or not. FFXIVs just happens to be the latter. In defense, FFXIs was the same. Many say "well FFXI was a 2003 game, its not ok anymore". I can see things from both side on the fence regarding that, but thats for another topic.
Similarly, the current Marketplace/Ward system which requires you check every single persons bazaar to find what you need, is not hardcore. Its just annoying.
Both of these things (GUI and Marketplace) are currently made to take longer than usual time, but as I said, just because something takes more time than standard does not make it hardcore. With this, ultimately it seems that hardcore is a term used to define gameplay and progression, not individual features.
I hope this clears up some misconceptions, feel free to comment if you believe I forgot something or am mistaken.
Ahh don't worry OP, your not the first nor the last that wishes for the term "Hardcore" to change and incorporate games that are simply time consuming.
Bottom line is Hardcore is referring to the brutality of the game and the challenge. Games that present challenges that can feel impossible and have some harsh penalties if you fail are hardcore.
FFXI was more hardcore than FFXIV because of the semi harsh death penalty and some of the challenges the game presented you with. But even XI can't really be considered Hardcore. That xp loss even though it was a pain in the arse wasn't enough to really give many a cause for pause.
Pre-Tram UO was hardcore because of the FFA PvP and Full Loot and the challenge the world presented because of it. You could lose your house back in those days.
AC Darktide (Even though I didn't play it) managed to fit in that Hardcore classification.
Unless there is some extreme risk involved in the activities, it really isn't hardcore.
FFXIV is time consuming and again if it makes you feel better, your not the first and you won't be the last that try's to get a game lumped into the hardcore bracket due to it being time consuming.
Games that tend to fit into that Hardcore category go by the risk vs. reward philosophy. And that risk is a large part of what makes it challenging and "Hardcore".
Games like FFXIV follow more of the time vs. reward philosophy and while one day you guys may get your way and the majority may eventually see that as hardcore it is currently not the case.
I was a C level ICCUP player on Starcraft running on 180 APM. That is hardcore. FFXIV is just pathetic. Grinding on dodos is hard guyz.
Nothing in this game is hardcore. It just takes a long time. Hardly any of it takes skill. Wow, you can use google and have 10 hours a day to waste! You're "hardcore"!
Thank you for sharing your definition of hardcore and why you think it applies to FFXIV. Here's mine: games are only as hardcore as the person playing them. A video game in and of itself is not hardcore, its how the player decides to approach it which determines a hardcore game experience or not.
I disagree and submit Demon's Souls as evidence exhibit A. There is no way to casually play this game.
Agreed. I take major pride in the fact that I beat DS twice.
"Hardcore" is when you are killing a boar and an assassin sneaks up behind you and 2 shots you. You die, losing 5% xp and drop your gear or he loots from you.
Inconvenient menus, a lack of tutorials, annoying controls, and having to craft your gear through a nonsensical time-sink is called "shit."
Comments
You can't just label a game hardcore because it is tedius and takes "extra" time. Calling this game hard core is almost like trying to excuse the game.
If you're desribing it in a vacuum, I could see your definition as being "passable" for FFXIV.
Since you bring FFXI into the equation in your post however, FFXIV doesn't even come close. In that context, I'd say FFXIV is "hardcore lite".
There's a number of safety-nets in XIV as well that, in my opinion, would be considerably "un-hardcore".
1. Roads are completely safe to travel... no danger of dying, it's a walk in the park. I traveled from Gridania to Ishtar, Gridania to Limsa Lominsa and from Ul'dah to both other starting cities... never a hint of danger on any of those trips. Just a lot of running through repetitive landscape. This is *not* the case in FFXI at a low level; it's actually a big deal getting to Jeuno for the first time because of how dangerous the road is. In FFXIV, SE have pretty much laid out a red carpet between all 4 locations.
2. No risk of losing xp or levels for dying, and the death sickness, even without the onion helm, is minor; it's almost gone by the time you get back to your hunting spot. Thus, I noticed people being a lot more careless and willing to simply barge into bad situations without pause because... hey... death isn't a big deal. An awful lot like certain other "casual" games, actually.
... and that's just a couple examples I can list off the top of my head.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
No they would call us civilians.
This is an mmo forum, about mmo games. Speaking about hardcore is speaking about it in terms of mmos, not in terms of flying jet fighters or engaging the enemy or any of the other multitude of tasks that people face everyday in the real world.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The whole fatigue incident shows this game is not hardcore. You can break it down all you want, the game is simply not designed to it's fullest potential. Not even close.
I think the swimmer would call swimming with the sharks stupid....and the farm game player would say the game is now not fun because it removes the strategy.
Killing or being killed by others is not the only thing that makes something hardcore.
Eve Online even without PvP would still be hardcore in playing the market to make money. Myst never had killing and solving some of the stuff without a guide is hardcore. Just because a game does not have PvP does not mean it is not hardcore.....adding PvP just to make it "hardcore" in your eyes can ruin the "hardcore" that is already in the game and make it not more hardcore, but more crappy.
The analogy stands, one is more difficult/has more risk involved than the other and as such can be considered more hardcore. That some people may not like ffa pvp is a moot point. Furthermore how would adding ffa pvp reduce strategy, if anything it will increase it.
Killing or being killed by others is not the only thing that makes something hardcore, no, but it increases the nature of that and as such for an mmo to be considered truly hardcore it should have ffa pvp.
Playing the markets in EVE online would be far easier as there would be little risk in moving commodities about. Whatever way you look at it the added dynamic of ffa pvp adds that extra element to a game which makes it more hardcore.
Hardcore is about depth, difficulty and risk. A game with ffa pvp does not have to reduce depth (look at EVE), but it does add difficulty and risk and as such ffa games are the more hardcore.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Ahh don't worry OP, your not the first nor the last that wishes for the term "Hardcore" to change and incorporate games that are simply time consuming.
Bottom line is Hardcore is referring to the brutality of the game and the challenge. Games that present challenges that can feel impossible and have some harsh penalties if you fail are hardcore.
FFXI was more hardcore than FFXIV because of the semi harsh death penalty and some of the challenges the game presented you with. But even XI can't really be considered Hardcore. That xp loss even though it was a pain in the arse wasn't enough to really give many a cause for pause.
Pre-Tram UO was hardcore because of the FFA PvP and Full Loot and the challenge the world presented because of it. You could lose your house back in those days.
AC Darktide (Even though I didn't play it) managed to fit in that Hardcore classification.
Unless there is some extreme risk involved in the activities, it really isn't hardcore.
FFXIV is time consuming and again if it makes you feel better, your not the first and you won't be the last that try's to get a game lumped into the hardcore bracket due to it being time consuming.
Games that tend to fit into that Hardcore category go by the risk vs. reward philosophy. And that risk is a large part of what makes it challenging and "Hardcore".
Games like FFXIV follow more of the time vs. reward philosophy and while one day you guys may get your way and the majority may eventually see that as hardcore it is currently not the case.
I hope that has cleared up your confusion
I was a C level ICCUP player on Starcraft running on 180 APM. That is hardcore. FFXIV is just pathetic. Grinding on dodos is hard guyz.
Nothing in this game is hardcore. It just takes a long time. Hardly any of it takes skill. Wow, you can use google and have 10 hours a day to waste! You're "hardcore"!
Agreed. I take major pride in the fact that I beat DS twice.
No 400 apm? Not hardcore enough!!
j/k. I probably can't match that. Yea, competitive starcraft will drive u nuts!
No.
"Hardcore" is when you are killing a boar and an assassin sneaks up behind you and 2 shots you. You die, losing 5% xp and drop your gear or he loots from you.
Inconvenient menus, a lack of tutorials, annoying controls, and having to craft your gear through a nonsensical time-sink is called "shit."