Some people PVP for the sheer fun of it. I'm not one of those people. I need PVP to have a purpose, either to defend my home turf, take someone else's turf away from them (and receive a corresponding benefit for doing so) or there has to be some realm wide benefit to do so. Personal character advancement is pretty cool too, such as realm points and what not, but are actually not my primary driver in pvping.
Back in my DAOC days | pretty much care beared it up as usual for me, but since taking realm keeps lead to access to Darkness Falls, arguably the best cash farming spot at the time, I always willing to go out and fight for the Alb side just so we could get in DF and start earning the big gold.
In EVE I enjoyed defending our home space, however it didn't directly lead to cash rewards so it wasn't quite as enjoyable for me since for every minute I was PVPing, I wasn't really earning any ISK nor did home defense actively impart any benefits which put me at odds with the game's design sometimes.
Now I do agree, if a game is deigned so that getting better gear is the be-all, end all end game, it quickly loses its appeal. I don't mind getting better gear if it helps me to dominate in a game (or heck, at least give me a chance to hold my own) but the constant acquisition of new gear for gear's sake holds little appeal.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Well in most games these days anyways, the ones that do not allow you to apply your own stats every level, makes everyone equal and gear is nearly the only thing to make much of any difference between one person and another.
Most people even dont bother to pvp,many avoid games with pvp focus.Resent games who aim at pvp players are more or less fail,so I would expect pvp to take less and less place in upcomming mmorpg's.
not sure where you are getting your info from, but I believe the majority of players enjoy a mix of PvE and PvP. How much players enjoy each of these varies greatly, but I have met very few players who only enjoy PvE or only enjoy PvP.
TOTALLY agree! There are some who only do PvE, but as someone else pointed out, PvP is an END GAME activity. Gear, not levels, ends up being the only thing thing differentiating players at level cap.
not sure where you are getting your info from, but I believe the majority of players enjoy a mix of PvE and PvP. How much players enjoy each of these varies greatly, but I have met very few players who only enjoy PvE or only enjoy PvP.
TOTALLY agree! There are some who only do PvE, but as someone else pointed out, PvP is an END GAME activity. Gear, not levels, ends up being the only thing thing differentiating players at level cap.
I agree with what you quoted however, I disagree with the idea that PvP is only an end game activity. In a FFA PvP style game you can grind away and come across PvP and that is also very enjoyable and memorable. I have enjoyed this in many games even when items/numbers are a factor you can still be skillful enough in the right game to win or at least have fun.
TBH, I feel bad for you since it seems the games you are/have played seem to be only where items determine skill. WoW clones I would assume?
Anyway, the topic is "Why can't PvP ( Skill) matter more than gear (items) today?"
Back in my DAOC days | pretty much care beared it up as usual for me, but since taking realm keeps lead to access to Darkness Falls, arguably the best cash farming spot at the time, I always willing to go out and fight for the Alb side just so we could get in DF and start earning the big gold.
In EVE I enjoyed defending our home space, however it didn't directly lead to cash rewards so it wasn't quite as enjoyable for me since for every minute I was PVPing, I wasn't really earning any ISK nor did home defense actively impart any benefits which put me at odds with the game's design sometimes.
The way I see it in DAOC you PvPed to gain access to new things so you could progress. In EVE you PVPed so you would not lose what you already worked hard to get and so you would not lose progress. It is really the difference in working hard to get a promotion and working hard just so you do not get fired. It's a major difference in motivation and thus enjoyment.
agree with what you quoted however, I disagree with the idea that PvP is only an end game activity. In a FFA PvP style game you can grind away and come across PvP and that is also very enjoyable and memorable. I have enjoyed this in many games even when items/numbers are a factor you can still be skillful enough in the right game to win or at least have fun.
TBH, I feel bad for you since it seems the games you are/have played seem to be only where items determine skill. WoW clones I would assume?
Anyway, the topic is "Why can't PvP ( Skill) matter more than gear (items) today?"
Don't feel bad for me. I don't play games I don't enjoy. I also don't think there's any such thing as "skill" in video games. There is knowledge and using that knowledge, but never "skill".
My belief that PvP is end game content doesn't exclude PvP from being a part of the leveling process, I just think it's impossible for developers to keep pace with PvE content so PvP becomes the only real "challenge" once you reach level cap and know how/when to use all your skillz..
Developers are giving rewards for PVP, because they realize that the PvP crowd is relatively small compared to the overall population. Using your WoW world, the end game pvp is WinterGrasp, but what does controlling it give you? Access to a few more merchants, a few more items and increased points in dungeon runs, so the most of it you can do without worrying about WG, maybe not as quickly but then again CareBears aren't in a hurry.
In short PVP has always been meaningless or next to it to the majority of the population.
---
I don't believe I said only in my post. I'm talking about their main reason to play. And I'm getting my information from years of playing and being on this kind of board since the days of EQ1. And even before that in years of DMing DnD, most people don't want to kill other people, they just want to have fun.
This is totally wrong. I never seen as many no-good PvP'ers in the Battlegrounds after rating was removed from the best gear in WoW. This means that BG's are packed with non-skilled PvE'ers grinding for cheap imba gear. PvP might be meaningless for you, it is certainly not meaningless for me.
You might think PvP is "not fun", but I can assure you I find PvP most thrilling. What I struggle with, is that I really need a higher cause than just for the fun or for the gear. I want it to matter for me as a Roleplayer too.
I want to be rewarded for defending my factions towns. I want to be rewarded for killing enemies inside our cities. I would love to be rewarded for killing enemies in their own cities. That would open a whole new dimension for me. Right now there's just no point in doing this. The whole world feels static and non-living. I am after all playing on a RP-PvP server. 90% of my allies really should be on PvE; I really wonder why they are on the PvP server in the first place when they are obviously not interested in that part. This makes it even worse when it is 'RP-PvP'; apathic allies around me that is watching me being killed. I felt ashamed by this, too many times.
From what I hear here, I might have to look into Darkfall. But I have never been much fond of being looted when I die... Nor do I care about looting others either. I used to play Shadowbane; I quit quite fast after being robbed my hardly earned silvers after just a few hrs in the game. This was of course done by some mighty higher level characters. They had no need for my silver, but in every case I was robbed. I did not want to take part of this, and I do not think such a system would appeal to me nearly 10 years later than when I played Shadowbane.
The problems as I see it, comes from the gaming publishers themself; they do not give any reasons at all to defend. There are 'some' bonuses for attacking towns, but about none for defending them. People have more to gain from entering a Battle Ground than staying to defend their 'own ground'. This is a huge negative side to me. When everyone grinds for gear, what is the point in the end, since gear is all that matters anyway? Sigh, I am becoming very frustrated by this creeping feeling I suddenly got; I now definately realize what's lacking from my MMO gaming:
I need a reason to fight the enemy! My current game does not provide this. Not even close. The game excels in almost every way. It fails utterly there. I admit that now. Which depresses me. Help... Sigh.
Try Darkfall?
Plenty of reason to defend or you will lose your city/hamlet/gear which can feel like getting physically punched in the stomach. The elation acheived from winning is extreme as well.
You don't understand, when people say they want consequences and real reasons to fight over something, they don't really mean it. Because there are games that offer that, but these games are often deemed too harsh heh.
Gamers are equally at fault with the situation we have today. When you have realm vs realm combat, what happens? People flood to the more populated side, the winning side...which makes things even worse. When you have FFA PvP, what happens? People flood to the winning guild/alliance. Human nature, nobody wants to be on the losing side and people can only stomach getting beat down for so long before they call it quits....or more often than not, join the enemy. Can't beat them, join them. It holds true in PvP games.
Only DAOC from my own experiences have done it mildly right by having 3 realms, making it so 2 lesser realms could fight against the top dogs. DAOC had its own problems, but it was about as fair, balanced, and effective as it could've been imo. It's RvR was also balanced in a way that if you can't go head on with a gank group, you could defend a castle/tower. Mythic had something special, it's just too bad they didn't realize it and sold out. Then we got the abomination that was WAR.
If you choose to play fake PVP games, don't complain about fake PVP.
If you want real PVP, play FPSes, RTSes, Fighting, and similar genres. Basically games with minimal amounts of non-skill factors.
What? Did you just wake up? I chose not to play those types however, if you are insisting that if it's an MMO it can't be a real PvP game then you must have bumped your head. Also, I do play FPS's mostly just CS:S since it is the only one without many major issues with Hitreg and the rest. Even FPS's have similar issues...
You're not the one complaining about fake PVP though. The OP is.
You wanted -- and got -- PVP which wasn't pure PVP. That's fine. Many people want that. In true PVP the top 20% win 80% of the time, which means 80% of people are losing 80% of the time.
Enter MMORPG PVP. They take real PVP but then add many non-skill elements to dilute the experience -- so it's not purely skill that determines the winner. The result is a game where unskilled players win more frequently than they otherwise would, which results in an overall more popular game.
Is it fair to call it "fake PVP" simply because it's a diluted experience? Well maybe not. But it's certainly no longer a pure PVP experience.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If you choose to play fake PVP games, don't complain about fake PVP.
If you want real PVP, play FPSes, RTSes, Fighting, and similar genres. Basically games with minimal amounts of non-skill factors.
What? Did you just wake up? I chose not to play those types however, if you are insisting that if it's an MMO it can't be a real PvP game then you must have bumped your head. Also, I do play FPS's mostly just CS:S since it is the only one without many major issues with Hitreg and the rest. Even FPS's have similar issues...
You're not the one complaining about fake PVP though. The OP is.
You wanted -- and got -- PVP which wasn't pure PVP. That's fine. Many people want that. In true PVP the top 20% win 80% of the time, which means 80% of people are losing 80% of the time.
Enter MMORPG PVP. They take real PVP but then add many non-skill elements to dilute the experience -- so it's not purely skill that determines the winner. The result is a game where unskilled players win more frequently than they otherwise would, which results in an overall more popular game.
Is it fair to call it "fake PVP" simply because it's a diluted experience? Well maybe not. But it's certainly no longer a pure PVP experience.
Very true but this is due to the people developing the game and what the consumers are buying.
While you make a very valid point I think about games that have managed to pull this off and keep a strong player base granted that was only one maybe two.. lulz
I guess if you offer both great content and PvP you can be the first inducted in the GDC's Hall of Fame.
If you choose to play fake PVP games, don't complain about fake PVP.
If you want real PVP, play FPSes, RTSes, Fighting, and similar genres. Basically games with minimal amounts of non-skill factors.
What? Did you just wake up? I chose not to play those types however, if you are insisting that if it's an MMO it can't be a real PvP game then you must have bumped your head. Also, I do play FPS's mostly just CS:S since it is the only one without many major issues with Hitreg and the rest. Even FPS's have similar issues...
You're not the one complaining about fake PVP though. The OP is.
You wanted -- and got -- PVP which wasn't pure PVP. That's fine. Many people want that. In true PVP the top 20% win 80% of the time, which means 80% of people are losing 80% of the time.
Enter MMORPG PVP. They take real PVP but then add many non-skill elements to dilute the experience -- so it's not purely skill that determines the winner. The result is a game where unskilled players win more frequently than they otherwise would, which results in an overall more popular game.
Is it fair to call it "fake PVP" simply because it's a diluted experience? Well maybe not. But it's certainly no longer a pure PVP experience.
Whatever even Counterstrike has a grind to become top dog because you have to know the maps and get familiar with the gameplay, range, and your mouse/keyboatd. Most FPS have stuff that you have to unlock by playing more. MMORPGs extend the grind but to some of us it is worth going through that grind because when you are finally top dog with assistance from many non-skill elements you get to own more than you can in those games. There is a bigger rush if there is some kind of death penalty and a bigger feeling of power if you gain something for winning. FPS is safe gaming because if you die it doesn't matter much. In some MMORPGs you could have some title where if you die once it will set you back months or gear/coin that is taken by the killer so I tend to get more adrenaline. Sometimes I will get up and pee in the middle of a FPS match. I can't do that in every game unless I log out or spend some time finding a safe spot to go AFK and hope nobody comes. That has excitment that instant gratification games do not. I hope you can understand . ..
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agree with what you quoted however, I disagree with the idea that PvP is only an end game activity. In a FFA PvP style game you can grind away and come across PvP and that is also very enjoyable and memorable. I have enjoyed this in many games even when items/numbers are a factor you can still be skillful enough in the right game to win or at least have fun.
TBH, I feel bad for you since it seems the games you are/have played seem to be only where items determine skill. WoW clones I would assume?
Anyway, the topic is "Why can't PvP ( Skill) matter more than gear (items) today?"
Don't feel bad for me. I don't play games I don't enjoy. I also don't think there's any such thing as "skill" in video games. There is knowledge and using that knowledge, but never "skill".
My belief that PvP is end game content doesn't exclude PvP from being a part of the leveling process, I just think it's impossible for developers to keep pace with PvE content so PvP becomes the only real "challenge" once you reach level cap and know how/when to use all your skillz..
I would disagree with the "being able to produce enouogh PVE content".
EQ was cranking out roughly 2 expansions per yr for a while. Only the top end guilds had the raid stuff completed before the next expansion launched.
Guilds ,like the one I was in, were 1 to 3 yrs behind current raid content. There was always something you could be working on.
WoW has had what? 3 Expansions since launch? There should of been a minimum of 1 per yr IMO. That, and some trivial content added every few months, is how to keep PVE folks happy.
The occasional distraction of BGs make for a bonus.
Unless actual twitch skills & knowledge determines PVP, then I have no use for it. Basing PVP on gear/lvls is as carebear as it gets IMO.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
If you want to know where the competiveness went, blame those who are SUPER competitive who cheated, belittled and cared little more about anyone else except their personal rankings and not wanting to die/lose gear/lose reps/lose whatever they had to lose.
Anacrhy Online, Star Wars Galaxies and last World of Warcraft.
I think we found the problem. You are playing games that are highly gear dependand. Yet mmos are about gears and itemhunt, what did u expect ? Try EVE or Darkfall if you want, less gear dependant game.
EQ was cranking out roughly 2 expansions per yr for a while. Only the top end guilds had the raid stuff completed before the next expansion launched.
Guilds ,like the one I was in, were 1 to 3 yrs behind current raid content. There was always something you could be working on.
WoW has had what? 3 Expansions since launch? There should of been a minimum of 1 per yr IMO. That, and some trivial content added every few months, is how to keep PVE folks happy.
I loved how often EQ was putting out expansions, but a lot of people complained about it. Buying a $20 expansion every 6 months turned many people off from the game since they felt SOE was nickle and diming them.
Somehow WoW is able to get away with selling a $40 expansion, releasing it incomplete, then patching the content in over the next two years. They obviously know what they are doing since 12 million people seem to like that system.
Because people dont like playing games they keep getting beat at.
If a game relies on skill, it will not have many customers. Check Darkfall. Yeah, youll say "Oh, DF is all about the grind," but thats because you died a lot. In reality, its based on skill and that aggravates people who suck. No one is going to play a game that constantly stresses them out. If no one plays the game, the company doesnt get paid.
So companies make easy games and rake in the bucks. Check WoW.
The reason PvP means nothing is because every game is all about selfish gains only. I need better rank/gear/abilities. MY needs are all that matter.
DAOC is the only game where i actually cared. The only game where i felt people actually cared about their keeps and relics. Even selfish elietest gank groups would do their part picking off enemies making thier way to the giant zerg battle. If your relic gate was open or they were on the last keep to get it open you better believe everyone who was online was out defending. Even if you were solo and not much of a help you were out fighting.
Relics affected the whole realm in all aspects of play PvE amd PvP, If i remember right having all 6 relics gave your side +30% melee and +30% magic(dmg and healing). Everyone benifited from noob to vet, low to high level it didnt matter you got the bonus. There needs to be a reason for guilds to work with other guilds, not bash each other constantly because they want all the gear for themselves. Strangers of the same realm to help eachother not compete for selfish gains.
The key is realm based rewards that are hard to get and hard to recover if you lose. Losing something that will reset in a day or less makes it worthless to achieve. Having to fight and claw for months to get something back gives pride and satisfaction when accomplished.
The reason PvP means nothing is because every game is all about selfish gains only. I need better rank/gear/abilities. MY needs are all that matter.
DAOC is the only game where i actually cared. The only game where i felt people actually cared about their keeps and relics. Even selfish elietest gank groups would do their part picking off enemies making thier way to the giant zerg battle. If your relic gate was open or they were on the last keep to get it open you better believe everyone who was online was out defending. Even if you were solo and not much of a help you were out fighting.
Relics affected the whole realm in all aspects of play PvE amd PvP, If i remember right having all 6 relics gave your side +30% melee and +30% magic(dmg and healing). Everyone benifited from noob to vet, low to high level it didnt matter you got the bonus. There needs to be a reason for guilds to work with other guilds, not bash each other constantly because they want all the gear for themselves. Strangers of the same realm to help eachother not compete for selfish gains.
The key is realm based rewards that are hard to get and hard to recover if you lose. Losing something that will reset in a day or less makes it worthless to achieve. Having to fight and claw for months to get something back gives pride and satisfaction when accomplished.
+10
you said about all i was thinking. in daoc i would run to defend the relic keep so many times even when i was 10 levels lower then the rest it still was a blast. was really hoping that WaR was gona be the same RvR system but when i got into the high level RvR i did not care one bit that we where losing keeps i just did not feel anything about defending my guild keep. not like daoc where you would run for 10-15min to get to your keep just to die before getting inside, release and run for 10min again and hope you get inside the keep this time.
Benjamin Franklin wrote the best quote to use for MMOs in development. Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.
If you want to know where the competiveness went, blame those who are SUPER competitive who cheated, belittled and cared little more about anyone else except their personal rankings and not wanting to die/lose gear/lose reps/lose whatever they had to lose.
Anacrhy Online, Star Wars Galaxies and last World of Warcraft.
I think we found the problem. You are playing games that are highly gear dependand. Yet mmos are about gears and itemhunt, what did u expect ? Try EVE or Darkfall if you want, less gear dependant game.
I have tried EVE. Definately not my cup of tea. Many people here have suggested to try Darkfall. Well, I started consider it, so I went off to Youtube and had look at this video in HD;
[url]
It was surely a downer; First I found the graphics far from "nice" as the man talking thought; it is blurred, glitching and looks to me very flat. Awful. Well I thought I could live with that, so I continued to watch as he made his toon and entered the world. I then started to wait for him to actually encounter something. It took ages. When he finally DID encounter something, I found the whole way of the fight and as well as the pixels of the mob non-appealing. This game is way below the looks of f.ex LOTRO. I would even rate the looks of this game below WoW. It reminds me more of DAOC, or even AO, than a modern MMO. Anyway; this part I 'can' live with.
The person started to talk about ingame mechanics. I already knew you can and WILL be looted in the game when you die. I am no fan of such things, but this goes for everyone; Loot or be looted. Still, this is non-appealing to me. My experience from earlier games is that this causes more grief than a positive gaming experience. What made me definite turn my back to this game, was when he said "there is no skill cap"; I will not accept that there is someome who is tons better than me just because they have clicked 'E' since day one. I expect to catch up with them, just as in real-life. Even if this game did have a skill-cap, I would most certainly not play this, especially since this game looked pretty much dead.
.
I am now considering Dark Age of Camelot. I never really got into it, ONLY because of the awkward keybindings and no-options of re-assign them. I read in DAOC forum that this can be sorted out with addons, but I have been unable to figure what addon I need for this, and how to install/use these addons. If I could sort that out, I would give DAOC a try again.
...
Now. From personal experience, even by training dogs, I 'know' it is better to be rewarded when you do something good rather than being punished when you do something wrong. Simply put: When I train dogs, I reward them when they 'sit'; I do not punish them when they don't. As I see here, most 'hardcore-pvp' people here are too much hooked upon 'punishing' people when they do something wrong. This just does'nt work. It is non-appealing and works against it's purpose. I assume this is why Darkfall is dead. People do not want this. It appeals to the very few gamers, and it is surely only for a small niche of the gamers. I am quite sure there are ways to give (world) PvP more meaning in games such as World of Warcraft and like, just by rewarding the player base for participating in such things. Anarchy Online has this; cap bases and defending them. Gear depends alot in these games, sure, but that is not neccessarily anything that bothers me 'much'. I have seen what skill can do, and as long as I get 2nd best gear, I am doing absolutely fantastic in the Battlegrounds as I feel I have clue when it comes to how to act tactical.
I am definately not after 'permadeath', being looted while dead, my house robbed etc etc. I want to be rewarded for doing the 'Roleplaying PvP' (bad explained, huh?); I want to be rewarded when I defend my keep. I want a reward for taking the enemies keep. I do not want to be punished when I fail in this. Punishment does -not- work whatsoever. Especially not in games where people meet to hav fun. Someone here posted what happened in Aion when they got 'Officer' title; they stopped doing PvP and clinged into groups like scary chickens afraid of being killed, cause you would loose ranks then. Ridiculous system. Absolutely rubbish. That is such a fail. And a 100% reason I would not give Aion a go either. I am happy that World of Warcraft has removed the punishment for being defeated. I really hated it back in the old Vanilla that you lost honor when you were defeated. It hampered my gaming experience too much. It was definately not something I enjoyed. I see no problem that everyone are equally geared. It then boils down to skill & tactics. Especially tactics in larger scale battles, like Battlegrounds. Skills in 1 vs 1. Which I never have been any 'great' at. I guess my 1 vs 1 skills are just a bit over average. As an example I would like to say that my son has absolutely fantastic 1 v 1 skills. We both have equally geared Protection Paladins (Wrathfull); I can barely scratch Frost Mages before I am dead in duels. My son beats the n# 1 ranked mage in duels. When we enters BG's my son rarely ever comes on top of me. I outplay him by miles here. I guess we can say my son has bigger potential than me for sure. But then, I never like 1 vs 1, so I guess I never will find my true potential when it comes to 1 vs 1 PvP.
You might ask how a reward system can be solved then. Well, first of all people like titles. You can add bonuses for holding your own cities, that inflicts both PvP & PvE. There are many ways to reward players for participating in this. You might also add these bonuses only for PvP server, and set these combined bonuses to zero on PvE servers so you don't force non-interested players into this. I am no Einstein how to solve this, I only got some vague ideas. The sytem today is definately not overly-appealing to me. I really need a higher cause if I am going to stay satisfied in my current MMO's.
Maybe I need to have a look at WW2 MMO again? Whatever happens, I met an "ethical" or some kind of "morale" wall in World of Warcraft and those MMO
s that I have played right now. I turned my back to the Battlegrounds, even though it is super easy to get 'imba' gear these days. I am just for myself now, grinding quests for the Loremaster title. As I see it now, I will play Cataclysm, bring 1 or 2 toons to 85 then drop out. I already 'know' what I will play; Football Manager 2011. Unless someone or something happens that shows me an MMO that appeals to me. Right now I feel MMO games are either extreme fluff or the toally opposite; extreme hardcore with lots of grief. None of those 2 extremes are in my interest. Call me picky; but this is how it is.
Several posts in this thread touch on valid points. However, we miss one I think:
PvP is "meaningless" (for me defined as short life/play expectancy, limited replay) because game developers don't approach the challenge like mature, professional designers and coders.
Yes, we can lay a good portion of the blame for crummy PvP platforms/environments on, you guessed it, the people who designed and built that platform.
Dev shops far too often fail to design and code around solid foundation concepts (e.g. competition, participation, vested interest/motivation vs demoralization), instead catering to gank-a-thon dynamics based on gear and levels gated by "the grind" during levelling.
Instead of establishing environments where everyone can get a dose of PvP excitement, it's instead relegated to "high-levels" and/or over-geared players. This is a HUGE problem because of what it mandates for players, especially new players: relegation to a useless target-dummy unless a massive grind-climb is overcome over an extended period of time. This effectively BLOCKS the proliferation of PvP fun-ness across a growing population of players.
Don't believe me? Lets take a look at Wow, which I played for over five years:
Level capped players allowed to run rampant through zones 50+ levels lower than them. All the players in those zones, lets say a 12-20 zone like Westfall, or a 30-45ish zone like Stranglethorn Vale, reduced to nothing but spectators easily 9/10 times because it's all capped, or close to capped and geared players engaged in World PvP.
Nothing KILLS the thrill of PvP in a game, particularly for new players (the renewing life-blood for in-game goodness of any kind), than seeing participation in PvP BLOCKED by an insane and mindless level and gear grind.
Instead of junior level competancy in design evidenced by game devs the industry needs to see true expertise in deploying true foundations for PvP in a game around which all the "fluff" and pew-pew candy is applied, instead of excluding those foudations in favor of glittery distractions (e.g. bigger/better attacks, just because, new gear skins to tickle our retinas, etc.)
1) Competition - PvP is about competition. Make sure the environment allows every level to compete in PvP.
2) Participation - Every level and class should be able to participate in PvP, regardless of the level of their opponents if you are going to have open-level zones. Yes, IMO a level 20 should be able to hit a level 60. This is NOT unreasonable because the damage scaling ALREADY establishes the differences between the levels (e.g. the lvl 20 hits for 75 while the 60 hits for 3,500). To Hit penalties taken too far simply violate a core tenant of PvP by negating the ability Participate.
3) Regulation designed to enforce Competition, Participation, and Risk/Danger. WoW for instance is a crying shame in that their World PvP could be some of the BEST, except for the fact they still support the juvenile model that KILLS World PvP in all games that don't bracket zones: Capped players trolling lowbie zones.
The first argument that drivels out here is something like "AH! it's about FREEDOM! It's about RISK and DANGER! You Carebear! You can't bracket PvP in the world, it's not "real" PvP then!"
The sad irony here is the opposite is actually true: In this example, that being WoW World PvP, you would bracket PvP participation in the zones to increase Risk/Danger, not decrease it. Specifically: Capped players head to lowbie land because of the reduced risk, the easy pickings, the easy griefings. They significantly reduce risk / danger for themselves, that's why they go. This is, objectively, a REDUCTION in risk/danger on the map across X number of players. They don't add anything to the environment for lowbie players because Risk / Danger is already baselined for the low level players: other players actually working that zone to level.
An unbracketted environment also eliminates the ability to participate. If player A is bashed by a high-level that player has no means to participate in PvP on that character. They can call in help, if higher levels are around and willing (non-participating spectator), they can log their own "main" to come after the griefer (abandonment and non-participation by the original character), etc. At no time is there any mode of participation possible in a (for instance 60 vs 20).
When all is said and done, PvP can do for a game something linear PvE content never can: Establish CYCLIC and RECURRING pleasure in-game to a far higher degree than PvE . . . provided the game supports the necessary game-play structure to support it. The WoW example here would be: Many players enjoyed developing level 19 "twinks" to take into the BGs. or 20's, or whatever. They liked that bracket, for whatever reason, and developed characters to participate there. They didn't have to "level up" to keep going back.
In a like manner, if you have World PvP bracketted to eliminate players simply COASTING on packed on levels and Stats (e.g. not really playing because there's no real risk), you'd see players squaring off more often in competative skirmishes. At lower levels, not just held off till the cap or close to it.
Until game designers go back to school and read up on some foundational aspects of sports and gaming, such as competition, participation, satisfaction, motivation vs demoralization, and reward, it won't get any better in gear/stat based MMOs. The Wall of The Grind will continue to grow, patch by patch, until there is no incentive to tackle The Grind anymore.
We will instead continued to be saddled with short term sally-forths as we hop from game to game hoping to find something better, but instead see another repeat of "lets figure out what the OP class is in this game, power level it, then run over everyone . . . until we are tired of it or the company goes into seizures over "balance" ".
Instead of establishing environments where everyone can get a dose of PvP excitement, it's instead relegated to "high-levels" and/or over-geared players. This is a HUGE problem because of what it mandates for players, especially new players: relegation to a useless target-dummy unless a massive grind-climb is overcome over an extended period of time. This effectively BLOCKS the proliferation of PvP fun-ness across a growing population of players.
Don't believe me? Lets take a look at Wow, which I played for over five years:
Level capped players allowed to run rampant through zones 50+ levels lower than them. All the players in those zones, lets say a 12-20 zone like Westfall, or a 30-45ish zone like Stranglethorn Vale, reduced to nothing but spectators easily 9/10 times because it's all capped, or close to capped and geared players engaged in World PvP.
Nothing KILLS the thrill of PvP in a game, particularly for new players (the renewing life-blood for in-game goodness of any kind), than seeing participation in PvP BLOCKED by an insane and mindless level and gear grind.
Well, I suppose here is where I disagree with you but it's not based entirely on your example.
I'll give a similiar example.
High lvl players allowed to run rampant through much lower lvl zones and all the players in those zones reduced to nothing but target practice for these high lvl players.
So the lower lvl players work extra hard, put in a bit more tie and eventually reach and exceed the level of some of those high lvl players.
They then can defend themselves and sometimes even exceed by magnitudes their former torturers.
To an extent that was my experience in lineage 2.
Higher lvl pk'ers would sometimes hold noob cities hostage or would decimate noop lands. So what did I do? I put in extra effort and eventually found that some of those players would eventually be lower lvl than me or would try to attack me not realizing my superior lvl and I would have the last laugh as their pk attempt became an attempt to run away.
You see, the issue is that people are not clear what game they are playing and the developers/publishers are trying to get get a greater piece of the player pie but by doing so they are luring players who should not be playing their game in the first place. Also, sometimes players don't do their research and find themselves in a game that is clearly not right for them.
Aion was like this. I had absolutely not problem with Aion's pvp but there were players who clearly were not in a game that was right for them as they weren't fully on board with Aion's pvp set up.
Some players don't mind being an underdog if they can possibly catch up and be allowed the chance to be the top dog.
Now, having said that, the most fun I've ever had in pvp was lineage 2 and warhammer. warhammer has things a bit more even in lvl so that players can have a more integrated pvp session as far as lvl.
But they are both different types of games and offer different things. And as long as I'm clear about the game and it's rules I have a choice to play or not to play.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
After reading a thread here where someone pointed out that PvP does not matter anymore, other than gear, I shamefully must agree; I do PvP for the gear myself. I am addicted to PvP, and I used for years to passionately fight enemy players that attacked my factions towns. I now sit here tasting on this feeling I got after reading those comments and have a foul taste in my mouth. This is somehat an upside-down "eureka" experience I got, but it tastes bad; I am becoming apathic too.
Way too many times I have tried to rally my side when enemy players have invaded us. Way too many times I have tried to fight the enemies alone & horribly outnumbered. All for nothing and most of the time for less than that; being defeated. These dissapointments are definatley the reasons that I have become numb & near give a damn about enemy players in our towns. I can still feel some anger and the need of retaliation when I see these players inside our towns, but thats a dwindling feeling that I fear is soon dead & gone for good.
Years ago, I fought the enemies with an eager passion. Today I fight them mostly out of 'old days habit' & my RP duty. If this is to continue, we might as well remove factions completely, cause right now theres barely any reasons at all of having different factions.
Where did it all go wrong? What can be done to restore the situation? I really want the feeling of fighting a true enemy, not just someone who's there just out of sheer boredom.
-Chris
it all went wrong when majority were more eager to carebear gear together against ai mobs.
solution force pvp back to it roots make some meaning for defending your towns and killing enemy player other than new shiny armor, other cosmetic benefits are also option but unfortunately not in the game wich i believe this post was referring.
I agree with the OP... and the answer for this problem lies in different things. But probably the most important one is how connected you are as a player with the surrounding World/Town/Players. People dont care anymore if there town burns ? than give them something that make them care!
Its all about how much of a bond you can build up with the world arround you. maybe ANOTHER good reason why we need a good computer AI ?
Comments
Some people PVP for the sheer fun of it. I'm not one of those people. I need PVP to have a purpose, either to defend my home turf, take someone else's turf away from them (and receive a corresponding benefit for doing so) or there has to be some realm wide benefit to do so. Personal character advancement is pretty cool too, such as realm points and what not, but are actually not my primary driver in pvping.
Back in my DAOC days | pretty much care beared it up as usual for me, but since taking realm keeps lead to access to Darkness Falls, arguably the best cash farming spot at the time, I always willing to go out and fight for the Alb side just so we could get in DF and start earning the big gold.
In EVE I enjoyed defending our home space, however it didn't directly lead to cash rewards so it wasn't quite as enjoyable for me since for every minute I was PVPing, I wasn't really earning any ISK nor did home defense actively impart any benefits which put me at odds with the game's design sometimes.
Now I do agree, if a game is deigned so that getting better gear is the be-all, end all end game, it quickly loses its appeal. I don't mind getting better gear if it helps me to dominate in a game (or heck, at least give me a chance to hold my own) but the constant acquisition of new gear for gear's sake holds little appeal.
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But, gear is what makes PvP matter! lol
Well in most games these days anyways, the ones that do not allow you to apply your own stats every level, makes everyone equal and gear is nearly the only thing to make much of any difference between one person and another.
Most people even dont bother to pvp,many avoid games with pvp focus.Resent games who aim at pvp players are more or less fail,so I would expect pvp to take less and less place in upcomming mmorpg's.
TOTALLY agree! There are some who only do PvE, but as someone else pointed out, PvP is an END GAME activity. Gear, not levels, ends up being the only thing thing differentiating players at level cap.
I agree with what you quoted however, I disagree with the idea that PvP is only an end game activity. In a FFA PvP style game you can grind away and come across PvP and that is also very enjoyable and memorable. I have enjoyed this in many games even when items/numbers are a factor you can still be skillful enough in the right game to win or at least have fun.
TBH, I feel bad for you since it seems the games you are/have played seem to be only where items determine skill. WoW clones I would assume?
Anyway, the topic is "Why can't PvP ( Skill) matter more than gear (items) today?"
The way I see it in DAOC you PvPed to gain access to new things so you could progress. In EVE you PVPed so you would not lose what you already worked hard to get and so you would not lose progress. It is really the difference in working hard to get a promotion and working hard just so you do not get fired. It's a major difference in motivation and thus enjoyment.
Don't feel bad for me. I don't play games I don't enjoy. I also don't think there's any such thing as "skill" in video games. There is knowledge and using that knowledge, but never "skill".
My belief that PvP is end game content doesn't exclude PvP from being a part of the leveling process, I just think it's impossible for developers to keep pace with PvE content so PvP becomes the only real "challenge" once you reach level cap and know how/when to use all your skillz..
This is totally wrong. I never seen as many no-good PvP'ers in the Battlegrounds after rating was removed from the best gear in WoW. This means that BG's are packed with non-skilled PvE'ers grinding for cheap imba gear. PvP might be meaningless for you, it is certainly not meaningless for me.
You might think PvP is "not fun", but I can assure you I find PvP most thrilling. What I struggle with, is that I really need a higher cause than just for the fun or for the gear. I want it to matter for me as a Roleplayer too.
I want to be rewarded for defending my factions towns. I want to be rewarded for killing enemies inside our cities. I would love to be rewarded for killing enemies in their own cities. That would open a whole new dimension for me. Right now there's just no point in doing this. The whole world feels static and non-living. I am after all playing on a RP-PvP server. 90% of my allies really should be on PvE; I really wonder why they are on the PvP server in the first place when they are obviously not interested in that part. This makes it even worse when it is 'RP-PvP'; apathic allies around me that is watching me being killed. I felt ashamed by this, too many times.
From what I hear here, I might have to look into Darkfall. But I have never been much fond of being looted when I die... Nor do I care about looting others either. I used to play Shadowbane; I quit quite fast after being robbed my hardly earned silvers after just a few hrs in the game. This was of course done by some mighty higher level characters. They had no need for my silver, but in every case I was robbed. I did not want to take part of this, and I do not think such a system would appeal to me nearly 10 years later than when I played Shadowbane.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
You don't understand, when people say they want consequences and real reasons to fight over something, they don't really mean it. Because there are games that offer that, but these games are often deemed too harsh heh.
Gamers are equally at fault with the situation we have today. When you have realm vs realm combat, what happens? People flood to the more populated side, the winning side...which makes things even worse. When you have FFA PvP, what happens? People flood to the winning guild/alliance. Human nature, nobody wants to be on the losing side and people can only stomach getting beat down for so long before they call it quits....or more often than not, join the enemy. Can't beat them, join them. It holds true in PvP games.
Only DAOC from my own experiences have done it mildly right by having 3 realms, making it so 2 lesser realms could fight against the top dogs. DAOC had its own problems, but it was about as fair, balanced, and effective as it could've been imo. It's RvR was also balanced in a way that if you can't go head on with a gank group, you could defend a castle/tower. Mythic had something special, it's just too bad they didn't realize it and sold out. Then we got the abomination that was WAR.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
You're not the one complaining about fake PVP though. The OP is.
You wanted -- and got -- PVP which wasn't pure PVP. That's fine. Many people want that. In true PVP the top 20% win 80% of the time, which means 80% of people are losing 80% of the time.
Enter MMORPG PVP. They take real PVP but then add many non-skill elements to dilute the experience -- so it's not purely skill that determines the winner. The result is a game where unskilled players win more frequently than they otherwise would, which results in an overall more popular game.
Is it fair to call it "fake PVP" simply because it's a diluted experience? Well maybe not. But it's certainly no longer a pure PVP experience.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Very true but this is due to the people developing the game and what the consumers are buying.
While you make a very valid point I think about games that have managed to pull this off and keep a strong player base granted that was only one maybe two.. lulz
I guess if you offer both great content and PvP you can be the first inducted in the GDC's Hall of Fame.
Whatever even Counterstrike has a grind to become top dog because you have to know the maps and get familiar with the gameplay, range, and your mouse/keyboatd. Most FPS have stuff that you have to unlock by playing more. MMORPGs extend the grind but to some of us it is worth going through that grind because when you are finally top dog with assistance from many non-skill elements you get to own more than you can in those games. There is a bigger rush if there is some kind of death penalty and a bigger feeling of power if you gain something for winning. FPS is safe gaming because if you die it doesn't matter much. In some MMORPGs you could have some title where if you die once it will set you back months or gear/coin that is taken by the killer so I tend to get more adrenaline. Sometimes I will get up and pee in the middle of a FPS match. I can't do that in every game unless I log out or spend some time finding a safe spot to go AFK and hope nobody comes. That has excitment that instant gratification games do not. I hope you can understand . ..
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I would disagree with the "being able to produce enouogh PVE content".
EQ was cranking out roughly 2 expansions per yr for a while. Only the top end guilds had the raid stuff completed before the next expansion launched.
Guilds ,like the one I was in, were 1 to 3 yrs behind current raid content. There was always something you could be working on.
WoW has had what? 3 Expansions since launch? There should of been a minimum of 1 per yr IMO. That, and some trivial content added every few months, is how to keep PVE folks happy.
The occasional distraction of BGs make for a bonus.
Unless actual twitch skills & knowledge determines PVP, then I have no use for it. Basing PVP on gear/lvls is as carebear as it gets IMO.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I think we found the problem. You are playing games that are highly gear dependand. Yet mmos are about gears and itemhunt, what did u expect ? Try EVE or Darkfall if you want, less gear dependant game.
I loved how often EQ was putting out expansions, but a lot of people complained about it. Buying a $20 expansion every 6 months turned many people off from the game since they felt SOE was nickle and diming them.
Somehow WoW is able to get away with selling a $40 expansion, releasing it incomplete, then patching the content in over the next two years. They obviously know what they are doing since 12 million people seem to like that system.
Its all in your mind.
Gear means nothing.
In WoW if you could spin your character real fast, I mean like really, really , really fast.
Faster than the fastests, coked up player then you will never be touched.
I promise.
I've seen this happen.
Heres some instruction.
Go out and buy two circus midgets, a track ball, a few keyboards and a whip.
Tell one midget to stand by the keyboard, and put the other midget on the table near the track ball.
Tell midget one to spamm buttons 1-5 on your keyboard like he's playing rockband on the drums.
Have the other little guy spin the track ball ninja frizbee style.
Step back about five feet.
Tell them to start and start wipping the shit out of them...
I swear it works.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
lulz
"Why can't PvP matter more than gear today?"
Because people dont like playing games they keep getting beat at.
If a game relies on skill, it will not have many customers. Check Darkfall. Yeah, youll say "Oh, DF is all about the grind," but thats because you died a lot. In reality, its based on skill and that aggravates people who suck. No one is going to play a game that constantly stresses them out. If no one plays the game, the company doesnt get paid.
So companies make easy games and rake in the bucks. Check WoW.
The reason PvP means nothing is because every game is all about selfish gains only. I need better rank/gear/abilities. MY needs are all that matter.
DAOC is the only game where i actually cared. The only game where i felt people actually cared about their keeps and relics. Even selfish elietest gank groups would do their part picking off enemies making thier way to the giant zerg battle. If your relic gate was open or they were on the last keep to get it open you better believe everyone who was online was out defending. Even if you were solo and not much of a help you were out fighting.
Relics affected the whole realm in all aspects of play PvE amd PvP, If i remember right having all 6 relics gave your side +30% melee and +30% magic(dmg and healing). Everyone benifited from noob to vet, low to high level it didnt matter you got the bonus. There needs to be a reason for guilds to work with other guilds, not bash each other constantly because they want all the gear for themselves. Strangers of the same realm to help eachother not compete for selfish gains.
The key is realm based rewards that are hard to get and hard to recover if you lose. Losing something that will reset in a day or less makes it worthless to achieve. Having to fight and claw for months to get something back gives pride and satisfaction when accomplished.
+10
you said about all i was thinking. in daoc i would run to defend the relic keep so many times even when i was 10 levels lower then the rest it still was a blast. was really hoping that WaR was gona be the same RvR system but when i got into the high level RvR i did not care one bit that we where losing keeps i just did not feel anything about defending my guild keep. not like daoc where you would run for 10-15min to get to your keep just to die before getting inside, release and run for 10min again and hope you get inside the keep this time.
Benjamin Franklin wrote the best quote to use for MMOs in development.
Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.
I have tried EVE. Definately not my cup of tea. Many people here have suggested to try Darkfall. Well, I started consider it, so I went off to Youtube and had look at this video in HD;
[url]
It was surely a downer; First I found the graphics far from "nice" as the man talking thought; it is blurred, glitching and looks to me very flat. Awful. Well I thought I could live with that, so I continued to watch as he made his toon and entered the world. I then started to wait for him to actually encounter something. It took ages. When he finally DID encounter something, I found the whole way of the fight and as well as the pixels of the mob non-appealing. This game is way below the looks of f.ex LOTRO. I would even rate the looks of this game below WoW. It reminds me more of DAOC, or even AO, than a modern MMO. Anyway; this part I 'can' live with.
The person started to talk about ingame mechanics. I already knew you can and WILL be looted in the game when you die. I am no fan of such things, but this goes for everyone; Loot or be looted. Still, this is non-appealing to me. My experience from earlier games is that this causes more grief than a positive gaming experience. What made me definite turn my back to this game, was when he said "there is no skill cap"; I will not accept that there is someome who is tons better than me just because they have clicked 'E' since day one. I expect to catch up with them, just as in real-life. Even if this game did have a skill-cap, I would most certainly not play this, especially since this game looked pretty much dead.
.
I am now considering Dark Age of Camelot. I never really got into it, ONLY because of the awkward keybindings and no-options of re-assign them. I read in DAOC forum that this can be sorted out with addons, but I have been unable to figure what addon I need for this, and how to install/use these addons. If I could sort that out, I would give DAOC a try again.
...
Now. From personal experience, even by training dogs, I 'know' it is better to be rewarded when you do something good rather than being punished when you do something wrong. Simply put: When I train dogs, I reward them when they 'sit'; I do not punish them when they don't. As I see here, most 'hardcore-pvp' people here are too much hooked upon 'punishing' people when they do something wrong. This just does'nt work. It is non-appealing and works against it's purpose. I assume this is why Darkfall is dead. People do not want this. It appeals to the very few gamers, and it is surely only for a small niche of the gamers. I am quite sure there are ways to give (world) PvP more meaning in games such as World of Warcraft and like, just by rewarding the player base for participating in such things. Anarchy Online has this; cap bases and defending them. Gear depends alot in these games, sure, but that is not neccessarily anything that bothers me 'much'. I have seen what skill can do, and as long as I get 2nd best gear, I am doing absolutely fantastic in the Battlegrounds as I feel I have clue when it comes to how to act tactical.
I am definately not after 'permadeath', being looted while dead, my house robbed etc etc. I want to be rewarded for doing the 'Roleplaying PvP' (bad explained, huh?); I want to be rewarded when I defend my keep. I want a reward for taking the enemies keep. I do not want to be punished when I fail in this. Punishment does -not- work whatsoever. Especially not in games where people meet to hav fun. Someone here posted what happened in Aion when they got 'Officer' title; they stopped doing PvP and clinged into groups like scary chickens afraid of being killed, cause you would loose ranks then. Ridiculous system. Absolutely rubbish. That is such a fail. And a 100% reason I would not give Aion a go either. I am happy that World of Warcraft has removed the punishment for being defeated. I really hated it back in the old Vanilla that you lost honor when you were defeated. It hampered my gaming experience too much. It was definately not something I enjoyed. I see no problem that everyone are equally geared. It then boils down to skill & tactics. Especially tactics in larger scale battles, like Battlegrounds. Skills in 1 vs 1. Which I never have been any 'great' at. I guess my 1 vs 1 skills are just a bit over average. As an example I would like to say that my son has absolutely fantastic 1 v 1 skills. We both have equally geared Protection Paladins (Wrathfull); I can barely scratch Frost Mages before I am dead in duels. My son beats the n# 1 ranked mage in duels. When we enters BG's my son rarely ever comes on top of me. I outplay him by miles here. I guess we can say my son has bigger potential than me for sure. But then, I never like 1 vs 1, so I guess I never will find my true potential when it comes to 1 vs 1 PvP.
You might ask how a reward system can be solved then. Well, first of all people like titles. You can add bonuses for holding your own cities, that inflicts both PvP & PvE. There are many ways to reward players for participating in this. You might also add these bonuses only for PvP server, and set these combined bonuses to zero on PvE servers so you don't force non-interested players into this. I am no Einstein how to solve this, I only got some vague ideas. The sytem today is definately not overly-appealing to me. I really need a higher cause if I am going to stay satisfied in my current MMO's.
Maybe I need to have a look at WW2 MMO again? Whatever happens, I met an "ethical" or some kind of "morale" wall in World of Warcraft and those MMO
s that I have played right now. I turned my back to the Battlegrounds, even though it is super easy to get 'imba' gear these days. I am just for myself now, grinding quests for the Loremaster title. As I see it now, I will play Cataclysm, bring 1 or 2 toons to 85 then drop out. I already 'know' what I will play; Football Manager 2011. Unless someone or something happens that shows me an MMO that appeals to me. Right now I feel MMO games are either extreme fluff or the toally opposite; extreme hardcore with lots of grief. None of those 2 extremes are in my interest. Call me picky; but this is how it is.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Several posts in this thread touch on valid points. However, we miss one I think:
PvP is "meaningless" (for me defined as short life/play expectancy, limited replay) because game developers don't approach the challenge like mature, professional designers and coders.
Yes, we can lay a good portion of the blame for crummy PvP platforms/environments on, you guessed it, the people who designed and built that platform.
Dev shops far too often fail to design and code around solid foundation concepts (e.g. competition, participation, vested interest/motivation vs demoralization), instead catering to gank-a-thon dynamics based on gear and levels gated by "the grind" during levelling.
Instead of establishing environments where everyone can get a dose of PvP excitement, it's instead relegated to "high-levels" and/or over-geared players. This is a HUGE problem because of what it mandates for players, especially new players: relegation to a useless target-dummy unless a massive grind-climb is overcome over an extended period of time. This effectively BLOCKS the proliferation of PvP fun-ness across a growing population of players.
Don't believe me? Lets take a look at Wow, which I played for over five years:
Level capped players allowed to run rampant through zones 50+ levels lower than them. All the players in those zones, lets say a 12-20 zone like Westfall, or a 30-45ish zone like Stranglethorn Vale, reduced to nothing but spectators easily 9/10 times because it's all capped, or close to capped and geared players engaged in World PvP.
Nothing KILLS the thrill of PvP in a game, particularly for new players (the renewing life-blood for in-game goodness of any kind), than seeing participation in PvP BLOCKED by an insane and mindless level and gear grind.
Instead of junior level competancy in design evidenced by game devs the industry needs to see true expertise in deploying true foundations for PvP in a game around which all the "fluff" and pew-pew candy is applied, instead of excluding those foudations in favor of glittery distractions (e.g. bigger/better attacks, just because, new gear skins to tickle our retinas, etc.)
1) Competition - PvP is about competition. Make sure the environment allows every level to compete in PvP.
2) Participation - Every level and class should be able to participate in PvP, regardless of the level of their opponents if you are going to have open-level zones. Yes, IMO a level 20 should be able to hit a level 60. This is NOT unreasonable because the damage scaling ALREADY establishes the differences between the levels (e.g. the lvl 20 hits for 75 while the 60 hits for 3,500). To Hit penalties taken too far simply violate a core tenant of PvP by negating the ability Participate.
3) Regulation designed to enforce Competition, Participation, and Risk/Danger. WoW for instance is a crying shame in that their World PvP could be some of the BEST, except for the fact they still support the juvenile model that KILLS World PvP in all games that don't bracket zones: Capped players trolling lowbie zones.
The first argument that drivels out here is something like "AH! it's about FREEDOM! It's about RISK and DANGER! You Carebear! You can't bracket PvP in the world, it's not "real" PvP then!"
The sad irony here is the opposite is actually true: In this example, that being WoW World PvP, you would bracket PvP participation in the zones to increase Risk/Danger, not decrease it. Specifically: Capped players head to lowbie land because of the reduced risk, the easy pickings, the easy griefings. They significantly reduce risk / danger for themselves, that's why they go. This is, objectively, a REDUCTION in risk/danger on the map across X number of players. They don't add anything to the environment for lowbie players because Risk / Danger is already baselined for the low level players: other players actually working that zone to level.
An unbracketted environment also eliminates the ability to participate. If player A is bashed by a high-level that player has no means to participate in PvP on that character. They can call in help, if higher levels are around and willing (non-participating spectator), they can log their own "main" to come after the griefer (abandonment and non-participation by the original character), etc. At no time is there any mode of participation possible in a (for instance 60 vs 20).
When all is said and done, PvP can do for a game something linear PvE content never can: Establish CYCLIC and RECURRING pleasure in-game to a far higher degree than PvE . . . provided the game supports the necessary game-play structure to support it. The WoW example here would be: Many players enjoyed developing level 19 "twinks" to take into the BGs. or 20's, or whatever. They liked that bracket, for whatever reason, and developed characters to participate there. They didn't have to "level up" to keep going back.
In a like manner, if you have World PvP bracketted to eliminate players simply COASTING on packed on levels and Stats (e.g. not really playing because there's no real risk), you'd see players squaring off more often in competative skirmishes. At lower levels, not just held off till the cap or close to it.
Until game designers go back to school and read up on some foundational aspects of sports and gaming, such as competition, participation, satisfaction, motivation vs demoralization, and reward, it won't get any better in gear/stat based MMOs. The Wall of The Grind will continue to grow, patch by patch, until there is no incentive to tackle The Grind anymore.
We will instead continued to be saddled with short term sally-forths as we hop from game to game hoping to find something better, but instead see another repeat of "lets figure out what the OP class is in this game, power level it, then run over everyone . . . until we are tired of it or the company goes into seizures over "balance" ".
Wherever you go, there you are.
Well, I suppose here is where I disagree with you but it's not based entirely on your example.
I'll give a similiar example.
High lvl players allowed to run rampant through much lower lvl zones and all the players in those zones reduced to nothing but target practice for these high lvl players.
So the lower lvl players work extra hard, put in a bit more tie and eventually reach and exceed the level of some of those high lvl players.
They then can defend themselves and sometimes even exceed by magnitudes their former torturers.
To an extent that was my experience in lineage 2.
Higher lvl pk'ers would sometimes hold noob cities hostage or would decimate noop lands. So what did I do? I put in extra effort and eventually found that some of those players would eventually be lower lvl than me or would try to attack me not realizing my superior lvl and I would have the last laugh as their pk attempt became an attempt to run away.
You see, the issue is that people are not clear what game they are playing and the developers/publishers are trying to get get a greater piece of the player pie but by doing so they are luring players who should not be playing their game in the first place. Also, sometimes players don't do their research and find themselves in a game that is clearly not right for them.
Aion was like this. I had absolutely not problem with Aion's pvp but there were players who clearly were not in a game that was right for them as they weren't fully on board with Aion's pvp set up.
Some players don't mind being an underdog if they can possibly catch up and be allowed the chance to be the top dog.
Now, having said that, the most fun I've ever had in pvp was lineage 2 and warhammer. warhammer has things a bit more even in lvl so that players can have a more integrated pvp session as far as lvl.
But they are both different types of games and offer different things. And as long as I'm clear about the game and it's rules I have a choice to play or not to play.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
it all went wrong when majority were more eager to carebear gear together against ai mobs.
solution force pvp back to it roots make some meaning for defending your towns and killing enemy player other than new shiny armor, other cosmetic benefits are also option but unfortunately not in the game wich i believe this post was referring.
cheers
I agree with the OP... and the answer for this problem lies in different things. But probably the most important one is how connected you are as a player with the surrounding World/Town/Players. People dont care anymore if there town burns ? than give them something that make them care!
Its all about how much of a bond you can build up with the world arround you. maybe ANOTHER good reason why we need a good computer AI ?