You guys are so busy trying to sound smart than you end up sounding like trolls.
Like i said in a earlier post, its all about who's paying, and right now it's kids Mommy's and daddy's.
so quality doesn't matter and it never will till kids quit spending on crap games.
But the problem is the kids dont even know their crap games because this is all they've ever seen and they have to to brag at school about what their playing so it Will never end. Crap games are here forever.
I have to disagree. AoC, WAR, LotRO, DDO, etc., etc...none of these games were marketed toward kids. Very few of the most hyped games in recent years that I can think of were marketed for a younger audience, but most failed or enjoy very slim margins of success. Even WoW, as cartoony as it is, wasn't really marketed to a younger audience. It's original audience tended to be in their twenties. Yeah, I see a lot of immature players in MMO's these days, but most of those MMO players are not kids, they are adults who should know better but still behave badly. Unless of course you're putting those twenty-somethings in the 'kid' category.
It doesn't stop in the 20s.
Frankly in leading raids and running a guild the actual kids weren't a problem. It was the problematic adults that derailed things.
I haven't run a guild, but as a player, that's been my experience as well.
Well if "humans" - more demons! - like Kotick, Smedley and Ricitello are starting talking about MMOs you know the dark age of our genre is becoming even darker. Former made from gamers for gamers and a nicely niche audience, games are now made for 12 year old kids (with a behaviour like that) and the stupid "I show everyone my life on Facebook crowd" which means easymode all over the place.
Gaming companies with passion, honor and quality have turned into bloodsucking capitalist moronic sweatshops its a shame that companies like EA, Activision are still allowed to do hostile take overs.
Just look at Bioware and Blizzard before and after their new publishers. Bioware went from RPG gaming to easymode storytelling "actionbased" LPG (light play gaming), Blizzard went from dedication to battlenet constraint, itemshop and game cutting in order to sell 1 game 3 times.
Studios that don't like this capitalistic bloodsucking route are becoming sabotaged by devils like SOE (i.e. Sigil).
Gaming has turned into something it should have never been, a business first and now you have all those suit wearing bastards making decissions instead of developers. Even FPS games are getting easier and easier how about duck to heal yourself? I mean what the hell is this?!
Oh and of course the holy achievements crap which are more and more used in order to extent cheap produced, short content games...
Last but not least the so called "special editions" guess what? Most special editions nowadays aren't even offering real goods, instead you're getting ingame advantages for paying more! God I miss the days of Ultima Online The Second Age edition: a real manual, audio soundtrack and a nice looking cd in a nice and well done box + 3d cover.
Currently these moronic bastards are trying to sell "special special editions" to crap out more money, god I hate all of them.
GAMES FROM GAMERS FOR GAMERS NOT SUIT WEARING CAPITALISTIC MORONS
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
And the other two have been serious disappointments, and will be free to play soon probably.
Which backs up everything i said.
Sorry, but no it doesn't. The only thing it backs up is that these games were poorly made, not that they were made for 'kids'.
Watch and see if these last two left on your list dont go f2p and become easier to play. Because thats where the money is.
Are you trying to say that you still sub to AOC an WAR? I doubt it, unless your under 15 years old, with very little mmorpg experience.
Going f2p has no bearing on age of players, it has more to do with a lack of quality or simply a failure to build interest in the game. Nor does going f2p make the games actually easier to play in terms of gameplay. You keep jumping to a conclusion that has nothing to do with anything. Even if it were true that they currently had younger players now, which I seriously doubt, it does not mean that the games were marketed toward a younger audience. The great majority of MMO players are in their twenties, and most of those are probably over twenty five, even if their maturity level is somewhere around twelve.
Personally, if I had a 15 year old kid I wouldn't even let him/her play AoC.
Gaming companies with passion, honor and quality have turned into bloodsucking capitalist moronic sweatshops its a shame that companies like EA, Activision are still allowed to do hostile take overs.
Just look at Bioware and Blizzard before and after their new publishers. Bioware went from RPG gaming to easymode storytelling "actionbased" LPG (light play gaming), Blizzard went from dedication to battlenet constraint, itemshop and game cutting in order to sell 1 game 3 times.
First there was no 'hostile takover' where Bioware was concerned, and I don't know about the others but I doubt they were either. Bioware's owners sold the company and were made VP's of EA to boot. Hardly an unfair deal for them. Also I believe Bioware in particular has maintained a certain amount of autonomy from EA than other developers they have bought. Like I said, it was something of a sweetheart deal for that company.
Secondly, Bioware's first game was an 'action-based' game. Their first really successful game was Baldurs Gate and it was from that game they developed their reputation for storytelling...long before EA had anything to do with them. They were working on Dragon Age and SW:TOR before EA bought the company. As a matter of fact, it's only the Mass Effect series than can be said to be fully developed while part of EA and I wouldn't say that Bioware made any sort of big departure from previous games. Despite the fact that it was an fps game it still had very heavy rpg elements, including a pretty good story; one of the most enjoyable games I've played in recent years. The only thing I can say I dislike are the DLC's in Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2, which is the only place I really see where EA had a negative influence.
I can't say anything about Blizzard or any other company, but I can say that you're just flat wrong where Bioware is concerned.
OMG! Those Capitalist Bastards! Addictive game play! This is terrible. I hope they will soon design a communist or socialist MMO that is boring as shit, so that no one would ever get addicted to it. That would be wonderful!
With respect... any medium that money can be made off of... it's copied, rehashed, repackaged and thrown out as fast as possible so every megacorp can get their percentage. You see it in movies, you see it in music, and in video games as well. Now that Hacktivi$ion has shown the world that everyone wants Call of Duty'ish games, everyone will throw twitch-style gaming into their formula. Who can pass up the chance of 1/2 a billion dollars, since that's what everyone wants... right? Look at Star Wars, CO, and DC Online. Twitch MMO's. You think it's bad now... come back to this post a year from now.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
I did not read, but ask yourself this one. If you feel the same way as the OP, why do you keep feeding these games. There are enough mmorpgs to support those who are willing to make a difference rather then making an other wow clone.
OMG! Those Capitalist Bastards! Addictive game play! This is terrible. I hope they will soon design a communist or socialist MMO that is boring as shit, so that no one would ever get addicted to it. That would be wonderful!
I'm sorry that you see yourself as a rat. Certain individuals wish to be treated as individuals and not as animals who can be conditioned into certain behavior for monetary purposes.
And I've never recommend games taking a socialist or communist design scheme. I used the terms "blood sucking" and "capitalists" as dysphemisms, not as objective adjectives (though "moron" was objective ). I think most of the criticisms I've received in this thread have been due to the title and not to the actual content of my post, lols.
*Edit*- Current MMOs are not addictive in the way that games like BF2 Bad Company are addictive. I want to keep playing Battlefield 2 bcause of the constant amount of fun I receive from it, there is never a moment that it is borning until the point comes that I want to get off the game.
*Edit*- Current MMOs are not addictive in the way that games like BF2 Bad Company are addictive. I want to keep playing Battlefield 2 bcause of the constant amount of fun I receive from it, there is never a moment that it is borning until the point comes that I want to get off the game.
First and foremost I will say I do not find today's typical MMO experience to be fun. That is exactly why I do not play a current MMO. However, that does not mean everyone feels that way. Some may very well find it fun, it wouldn't become addictive otherwise IMO, no matter how much psychological jargen some blogger spews out. The first hook of any addiction is the enjoyment the future-addicted receive from it.
The typical formula does feed on urges and impulses there's no denying that. The proverbial carrot has been used as a means to reach this end.
That said, to pull those people in they must first entertain them. The reason I do not become addicted to todays mmo is because they fail in that (for me), meaning they fail to draw me in. It must be stressed this is a matter of personal preference. If they gave the same feeling I got from PVP in pre-cu SWG I'd very much be hooked. I was hooked on that because I got the same fun I found in games like BF2, Bf1942, and BF Vietnam.
In the end what you're stating is something you can only speak for yourself about, you can't tell others what they find fun, nor decide what is fun. Fun is a subject best left to the beholder, the observer means nothing. Do you like to play baseball? Well I don't, so baseball must be produced by "bloodsucking capitalist morons". Oh wait....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Darn those capitalists and selling things that people want to buy and thus make money. You're right, what we need is a good, old fassioned North Korean Communist style MMO. Then we can thank the "Great Leader" Kim Jong il that we get to take a break from starving to death and play an out of date, repititious, propaganda filled game about killing free people with our great isolationist values.
Yep, being capitalists is terrible. Darnit having to pick which mmo we want to play.
I kinda feel sorry for you OP. I do understand your pain. The new generation of gamers want different things then us old schoolers... Thats why "our" games are so rare of a jewl.
I don't see the reason of blaming game companies tho. If the games didn't sell why would they make them? They see the trand in gaming and they are making games that people want and will buy. They are not here to do "public service" whatever that means. They make money.
You want deeper, more involving and artsy games? Don't buy their games. Talk to others around you and convince them that its the only way to influence the industry. Your money is powerfull. If you buy the games you despise... How can they know you despise them?
I've been uplinked and downloaded, I've been inputted and outsourced. I know the upside of downsizing, I know the downside of upgrading.
I'm a high-tech low-life. A cutting-edge, state-of-the-art, bi-coastal multi-tasker, and I can give you a gigabyte in a nanosecond.
I'm new-wave, but I'm old-school; and my inner child is outward-bound.
I'm a hot-wired, heat-seeking, warm-hearted cool customer; voice-activated and bio-degradable.
Darn those capitalists and selling things that people want to buy and thus make money. You[object Window]re right, what we need is a good, old fassioned North Korean Communist style MMO. Then we can thank the [object Window]Great Leader[object Window] Kim Jong il that we get to take a break from starving to death and play an out of date, repititious, propaganda filled game about killing free people with our great isolationist values.
Yep, being capitalists is terrible. Darnit having to pick which mmo we want to play.
L2Read buddy. Everthing that you assume I mean has been explained in previous posts. I dont want a communist/socialist game (I dont even know what this would look like? Everyone being give the same armor lol? Having the government subsidize player mecheants? lmao). I am not saying any thing about the actual US economic system or capitalism in general, I am only explaining why I dont like that mindset in MMOs, particularly by video game publishers. And actual game mechanics inside MMOs themselves are never capitalstic anyways.
And I do not support shitty games that come out. I have not purchased an MMO since Darkfall two years ago. I will only play free trials occasionally, or resubscribe games that I do enjoy.
Seriously, people need to learn to read and/or stop taking their own opinions so seriously when anothers come in conflict with theirs.
And old games were not necissarily more complex, but they left more gameplay to the player in how they wanted to play or experience the game. Not everything was scripted for the players. You did not get a quest telling you to go to X zone as soon as you have finished 80% of the quests in the former one.
Repeated again, Im expressing my own opinions and values towards online games. If you dont enjoy, well I appreciate you sharing yours, but I do not appreciate you tearing my head off. Ad hominem attacks are expressions of people who take life too seriously and cant respect anothers right to have an opinion.
[object Window]
Edit: I had to take out my apostrophes as they were replaced with [object Window]object window[object Window] messages.
Darn those capitalists and selling things that people want to buy and thus make money. You[object Window]re right, what we need is a good, old fassioned North Korean Communist style MMO. Then we can thank the [object Window]Great Leader[object Window] Kim Jong il that we get to take a break from starving to death and play an out of date, repititious, propaganda filled game about killing free people with our great isolationist values.
Yep, being capitalists is terrible. Darnit having to pick which mmo we want to play.
L2Read buddy. Everthing that you assume I mean has been explained in previous posts. I dont want a communist/socialist game (I dont even know what this would look like? Everyone being give the same armor lol? Having the government subsidize player mecheants? lmao). I am not saying any thing about the actual US economic system or capitalism in general, I am only explaining why I dont like that mindset in MMOs, particularly by video game publishers. And actual game mechanics inside MMOs themselves are never capitalstic anyways.
And I do not support shitty games that come out. I have not purchased an MMO since Darkfall two years ago. I will only play free trials occasionally, or resubscribe games that I do enjoy.
Seriously, people need to learn to read and/or stop taking their own opinions so seriously when anothers come in conflict with theirs.
And old games were not necissarily more complex, but they left more gameplay to the player in how they wanted to play or experience the game. Not everything was scripted for the players. You did not get a quest telling you to go to X zone as soon as you have finished 80% of the quests in the former one.
Repeated again, Im expressing my own opinions and values towards online games. If you dont enjoy, well I appreciate you sharing yours, but I do not appreciate you tearing my head off. Ad hominem attacks are expressions of people who take life too seriously and cant respect anothers right to have an opinion.
[object Window]
Edit: I had to take out my apostrophes as they were replaced with [object Window]object window[object Window] messages.
Given such a controversial title are you really surprised that people jumped the gun? You should have expected this.
Darn those capitalists and selling things that people want to buy and thus make money. You[object Window]re right, what we need is a good, old fassioned North Korean Communist style MMO. Then we can thank the [object Window]Great Leader[object Window] Kim Jong il that we get to take a break from starving to death and play an out of date, repititious, propaganda filled game about killing free people with our great isolationist values.
Yep, being capitalists is terrible. Darnit having to pick which mmo we want to play.
L2Read buddy. Everthing that you assume I mean has been explained in previous posts. I dont want a communist/socialist game (I dont even know what this would look like? Everyone being give the same armor lol? Having the government subsidize player mecheants? lmao). I am not saying any thing about the actual US economic system or capitalism in general, I am only explaining why I dont like that mindset in MMOs, particularly by video game publishers. And actual game mechanics inside MMOs themselves are never capitalstic anyways.
And I do not support shitty games that come out. I have not purchased an MMO since Darkfall two years ago. I will only play free trials occasionally, or resubscribe games that I do enjoy.
Seriously, people need to learn to read and/or stop taking their own opinions so seriously when anothers come in conflict with theirs.
And old games were not necissarily more complex, but they left more gameplay to the player in how they wanted to play or experience the game. Not everything was scripted for the players. You did not get a quest telling you to go to X zone as soon as you have finished 80% of the quests in the former one.
Repeated again, Im expressing my own opinions and values towards online games. If you dont enjoy, well I appreciate you sharing yours, but I do not appreciate you tearing my head off. Ad hominem attacks are expressions of people who take life too seriously and cant respect anothers right to have an opinion.
[object Window]
Edit: I had to take out my apostrophes as they were replaced with [object Window]object window[object Window] messages.
Given such a controversial title are you really surprised that people jumped the gun? You should have expected this.
There's good capitalism and bad capitalism, as with every single product out there available for purchase. There will always be people trying to make a buck by screwing you, and sadly it seems to happen in the mmo business more than any other business. That's of course because once you buy the software you can't return it. That very fact is enough to draw all the crooks into the fold.
Ultimately though, it comes down to someone actually making a mmo worth purchasing. With the exception of Blizzard, no other mmo dev can do it. That's just the sad fact of the matter. You know what's really funny though? It's those who are GOOD at business who will in the end make us the next big mmo. Sometimes you just have to deal with a lot of chaff to get to the wheat, and there's a lot of chaff developers out there nowadays. They should be ashamed.
I think a lot of it falls on the gamers themselves now. You have the achiement era of gamers now who need to be rewarded just for logging in it seems. How many more times do I have to hear "What do I do now that the achiements are all unlocked"? I mean, who gives a shit? This is the younger crowd, seems most gamers who are somewhere in their mid 20's + don't care for much of that garbage. They play to play..I'm just speaking about gaming in general because it happens on FPS, etc. It really doesn't help the attention span of most gamers is 0 at this point. Soon as something new comes out they bolt.
OP this sentence says it all and will continuing im affraid and its BORING:(
" increased accessibility in character customization, repetitive dungeons, riskless PvP, boring quests"
And instead make game exciting they only go for beautifull grafhics instead of intresting gameplay.
This is going on for years now and even worse today im affraid money is only means that counts and millions love this boring souless mmorpgs/games:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Anyone remember when you met (some) old people who'd talk about how great things were back in the day? Well, half of the OP's post and most of the complaints seem to be along those lines. That's just viewing the past with rose-colored glasses. MMOs are generally better now than they were when they first arrived on the scene. That said, there has been stagnation in the industry and a lot of rushed MMOs that have then done poorly. There hasn't been a lot of innovation and gameplay hasn't improved very much. Thankfully some new games seem to be on the horizon to address that in the next few years, GW2 chief among them. So we've had a bit of a slow period, but it looks like things will get better.
I really hate that generalization, because it's based on a false dichotomy.
Some of those old school MMOs people refer to are still around today, and are still being played. So, no, it's not about "viewing the past through rose-colored glasses". It's about recognizing and acknowledging how MMOs were designed Pre-WoW and how they've been designed post-WoW.
For a time, I played WoW, which inarguably presents the "newer" philosophy of MMO design. When I became (inevitably) bored with it, I could log out and log into FFXI which has a decidedly much more "old-school" design to it. While WoW (and others designed like it) are about "playing a game", MMOs like FFXI (and EQ1, AC1, AC2, L2, UO, etc) is *very* much more about being a virtual character inhabiting a world and all that goes with it.
No need to "look to the past" with any kind of glasses when relevant examples of the OP's statements still exist in the present.
There's another important factor that's often overlooked when having these "present vs. past" discussions. That is, the mindset of the players and how the games were approached.
By and large, most players I encountered and/or knew while playing XI, EQ2, AC2 and other pre-WoW era MMOs had goals... but their goals were all in the present, or at most the near future. They didn't discredit the low or middle end game with the belief that "it was all about end-game". They were all about experiencing and enjoying what they were doing at that moment. They didn't feel they were being "held up" by helping other players complete something, even if it was the 100th time they'd done it - because their enjoyment came from playing the game itself.
In my experience, back then hardly *anyone* I knew was ever in a hurry to get to end-game, or at least weren't so single-mindedly driven by it that all else became irrelevant. I knew hardly *anyone* who was so driven by getting that next "achievement" or next piece of shiny gear, or next reward or something that it consumed most of their attention while playing.
Did those people exist? Absolutely. But not in *nearly* so great numbers as they have in the last several years, since so-called "casual-friendly, accessible MMOs" were introduced.
There was also a much, much stronger sense of community. MMOs back then - in large part - fostered, nurtured and supported communities. And the players enjoyed it. It's not until the start of the WoW era and the introduction of single-player-game minded people started populating the genre that you saw the outcry of "too group focused!" and "make it more soloable!". MMOs have moved away from nurturing or supporting communities, and have moved more toward catering to and rewarding the individual. And players with that "me me me now now now" mindset can't get enough of it.
Back in the pre-WoW days, a player would take time out of what they were doing to help you finish a difficult quest, or take down a difficult creature for the sake of helping you out.. and because they enjoyed the interaction in the virtual world they inhabited for those few (or several) hours a day. They didn't need a tangible reward for doing it. They did it because, whatever they were doing, *they enjoyed the game they were playing* and that was "reward" enough.
Those people do still exist, though they're a true diamond in the rough nowadays. They are also, sadly, often put off from helping thanks to members of the "me me me now now now" crowd demanding their help with everything. I can speak to that myself, being someone who enjoys helping people out and don't mind it at all... Some people these days become downright belligerent if you *dare* say "no" to them because, god forbid, you're doing something yourself. My idea of helping people these days is giving them advice on how to help themselves rather than doing whatever it is they want for them. Funny how quickly people lose interest in talking to you as soon as they find out you're not going to give them free money or do their quests for them.
For example, I was cussed out and called all manner of colorful names in /tell by a brand-new level 8 player in WoW who got pissed because I wouldn't run them through a quest. I had no idea who this person was. I'm standing in Stormwind as a level 45 character, talking to guild-mates getting ready to go do an instance. This person was apparently working through the list of all people in the area asking anyone high level enough to come "help them" in turn as they contacted someone else in my guild shortly after me. My guildmate got the same slew of insults when they declined and - trying to be helpful, mind you - suggested that the quest wasn't difficult that the player just had to go slow and be careful and they'd be fine. But that's indicative of the mindset many people have these days; "I want it, therefor I should have it, and don't you dare tell me I can't, because I'm entitled".
Nowadays many people have too much of a "what's in it for me?" and "how quickly can I get it?" attitude to ever think of taking out of their own time to help someone else. Asking a player to step off their own treadmill, going 200MPH toward level cap to help you with something is often akin to asking them to bite their own hands off in most cases I find.
Many players I've noticed in newer MMOs join guilds not for the social interaction or the people they'll meet. They join a guild that will be the most expedient in getting them what *they* want. If that guild can't get them what they want as quickly as they want it, they're gone.
In a nutshell... a major factor in how many people view old-school MMOs (and who actually *played* them for a time) versus how they view newer MMOs boils down to two very simple words: "Me" vs "We". It's as much about the mentality of those playing the games as it is about how they're made.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Then why are we capitalists up to our eyeballs in debt to communist china?
Because the government wants to create socialist systems in a capitalistic society and can not get funding for it so they turn to a socialistic society to fund he change here. Socialism is great till the money runs out...i.e. China refusing to give us money one day.
How is that bad? You know before fire services became Socialist, if you didn't have a crest on your home and it was burning down, they would just ignore you, and your home. Leaving you to die, or whatever the fire caused. Many essential organizations work under the principle of Socialism. Fire, Police, medicare, ss, 401k plans, ect. FYI what you are saying the goverment wants to do has already been done. if you are in the United States, then you officially live in a economic system called a 'Mixed economy'.
Also, going full Socialism is next to impossible in the United states the way our economy is set up. However, restricting Capitalism, and placing economic reform in certain areas to tilt towards more of a 'Controlled economy', would make it easier for the government to dig the nation out of debt. The idea isn't to have total Socialism, but have it in areas where it can effectively reduce deficit.
If we don't do something about to spiral of debt, america is litteraly screwed. Right now China owning half of the US isn't the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that the Government is 5-10 trillion dollars down the hole, and the only way they are funding war efforts, ect, is by begging the feds to print them more monopoly money at interest.
We need to stop being so overly dependent on central banking, that was our biggest failure as a nation, and began the cycle of forced economy collapses, and pushes for profit wars. Most people see war and ask how the hell it could be profitable, because it just drains the economy. That's true, but the economy isn't where direct war funds come from. The majority of war funds come straight from the Federal reserve prints. They just loan it to the government at interest, and in turn, the government fuels the war, and then increase taxes, mortgages, and income tax, which all gets sent to the central banks. Our income tax will skyrocket if another war breaks out on top of the ones we are already fighting.
The result of the this would be the destruction of the middle class. This is why Socialism always becomes desirable when Democracy and Capitalism go to shit and become bank puppets. We are walking a fine line towards Fascism. And with the wikileaks incident, the government will probably change the 1st amendment, 4th amendment, 14th amendment, and the espionage act, and put heavy censorship on the net. They already passed an internet kill switch, ratified espionage act to include 'ALL' animal rights activists as suspected terrorists, and have TSA members groping children.
.
We are becoming Fascist btw. It's what many call an inverted totalitarianism, because it still has multiple parties, and democratic elections. It's just your candidate choices will always join the elitesman club. This is why most presidents, ect, are all lawyers, or former bankers, and many from yale university law school. This means they almost always follow the advice of the central banks. They do not care about the peope. If they did, they would have never let the Federal reserve act pass in the early 1900's.
I say down with the bourgoise! It's time for the Bolsheviks to take this b*tch over. Remember, everyone is equal. Some are just more equal than others. Dasvidanya!
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Comments
I haven't run a guild, but as a player, that's been my experience as well.
Watch and see if these last two left on your list dont go f2p and become easier to play. Because thats where the money is.
Are you trying to say that you still sub to AOC an WAR? I doubt it, unless your under 15 years old, with very little mmorpg experience.
Bit late to this post. Just read it on mmowasteland.com
but @OP
I approve !
And frek it. Guild Wars 2 is probably the only MMO in last 6-7 years that even tries to break the mold.
But. People are slowly becomming fed up. And turning to Indies.
Its the last hope
Well if "humans" - more demons! - like Kotick, Smedley and Ricitello are starting talking about MMOs you know the dark age of our genre is becoming even darker. Former made from gamers for gamers and a nicely niche audience, games are now made for 12 year old kids (with a behaviour like that) and the stupid "I show everyone my life on Facebook crowd" which means easymode all over the place.
Gaming companies with passion, honor and quality have turned into bloodsucking capitalist moronic sweatshops its a shame that companies like EA, Activision are still allowed to do hostile take overs.
Just look at Bioware and Blizzard before and after their new publishers. Bioware went from RPG gaming to easymode storytelling "actionbased" LPG (light play gaming), Blizzard went from dedication to battlenet constraint, itemshop and game cutting in order to sell 1 game 3 times.
Studios that don't like this capitalistic bloodsucking route are becoming sabotaged by devils like SOE (i.e. Sigil).
Gaming has turned into something it should have never been, a business first and now you have all those suit wearing bastards making decissions instead of developers. Even FPS games are getting easier and easier how about duck to heal yourself? I mean what the hell is this?!
Oh and of course the holy achievements crap which are more and more used in order to extent cheap produced, short content games...
Last but not least the so called "special editions" guess what? Most special editions nowadays aren't even offering real goods, instead you're getting ingame advantages for paying more! God I miss the days of Ultima Online The Second Age edition: a real manual, audio soundtrack and a nice looking cd in a nice and well done box + 3d cover.
Currently these moronic bastards are trying to sell "special special editions" to crap out more money, god I hate all of them.
GAMES FROM GAMERS FOR GAMERS NOT SUIT WEARING CAPITALISTIC MORONS
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Going f2p has no bearing on age of players, it has more to do with a lack of quality or simply a failure to build interest in the game. Nor does going f2p make the games actually easier to play in terms of gameplay. You keep jumping to a conclusion that has nothing to do with anything. Even if it were true that they currently had younger players now, which I seriously doubt, it does not mean that the games were marketed toward a younger audience. The great majority of MMO players are in their twenties, and most of those are probably over twenty five, even if their maturity level is somewhere around twelve.
Personally, if I had a 15 year old kid I wouldn't even let him/her play AoC.
First there was no 'hostile takover' where Bioware was concerned, and I don't know about the others but I doubt they were either. Bioware's owners sold the company and were made VP's of EA to boot. Hardly an unfair deal for them. Also I believe Bioware in particular has maintained a certain amount of autonomy from EA than other developers they have bought. Like I said, it was something of a sweetheart deal for that company.
Secondly, Bioware's first game was an 'action-based' game. Their first really successful game was Baldurs Gate and it was from that game they developed their reputation for storytelling...long before EA had anything to do with them. They were working on Dragon Age and SW:TOR before EA bought the company. As a matter of fact, it's only the Mass Effect series than can be said to be fully developed while part of EA and I wouldn't say that Bioware made any sort of big departure from previous games. Despite the fact that it was an fps game it still had very heavy rpg elements, including a pretty good story; one of the most enjoyable games I've played in recent years. The only thing I can say I dislike are the DLC's in Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2, which is the only place I really see where EA had a negative influence.
I can't say anything about Blizzard or any other company, but I can say that you're just flat wrong where Bioware is concerned.
OMG! Those Capitalist Bastards! Addictive game play! This is terrible. I hope they will soon design a communist or socialist MMO that is boring as shit, so that no one would ever get addicted to it. That would be wonderful!
With respect... any medium that money can be made off of... it's copied, rehashed, repackaged and thrown out as fast as possible so every megacorp can get their percentage. You see it in movies, you see it in music, and in video games as well. Now that Hacktivi$ion has shown the world that everyone wants Call of Duty'ish games, everyone will throw twitch-style gaming into their formula. Who can pass up the chance of 1/2 a billion dollars, since that's what everyone wants... right? Look at Star Wars, CO, and DC Online. Twitch MMO's. You think it's bad now... come back to this post a year from now.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
I did not read, but ask yourself this one. If you feel the same way as the OP, why do you keep feeding these games. There are enough mmorpgs to support those who are willing to make a difference rather then making an other wow clone.
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I'm sorry that you see yourself as a rat. Certain individuals wish to be treated as individuals and not as animals who can be conditioned into certain behavior for monetary purposes.
And I've never recommend games taking a socialist or communist design scheme. I used the terms "blood sucking" and "capitalists" as dysphemisms, not as objective adjectives (though "moron" was objective
). I think most of the criticisms I've received in this thread have been due to the title and not to the actual content of my post, lols.
*Edit*- Current MMOs are not addictive in the way that games like BF2 Bad Company are addictive. I want to keep playing Battlefield 2 bcause of the constant amount of fun I receive from it, there is never a moment that it is borning until the point comes that I want to get off the game.
First and foremost I will say I do not find today's typical MMO experience to be fun. That is exactly why I do not play a current MMO. However, that does not mean everyone feels that way. Some may very well find it fun, it wouldn't become addictive otherwise IMO, no matter how much psychological jargen some blogger spews out. The first hook of any addiction is the enjoyment the future-addicted receive from it.
The typical formula does feed on urges and impulses there's no denying that. The proverbial carrot has been used as a means to reach this end.
That said, to pull those people in they must first entertain them. The reason I do not become addicted to todays mmo is because they fail in that (for me), meaning they fail to draw me in. It must be stressed this is a matter of personal preference. If they gave the same feeling I got from PVP in pre-cu SWG I'd very much be hooked. I was hooked on that because I got the same fun I found in games like BF2, Bf1942, and BF Vietnam.
In the end what you're stating is something you can only speak for yourself about, you can't tell others what they find fun, nor decide what is fun. Fun is a subject best left to the beholder, the observer means nothing. Do you like to play baseball? Well I don't, so baseball must be produced by "bloodsucking capitalist morons". Oh wait....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
EQ was complex?
ok....
Darn those capitalists and selling things that people want to buy and thus make money. You're right, what we need is a good, old fassioned North Korean Communist style MMO. Then we can thank the "Great Leader" Kim Jong il that we get to take a break from starving to death and play an out of date, repititious, propaganda filled game about killing free people with our great isolationist values.
Yep, being capitalists is terrible. Darnit having to pick which mmo we want to play.
I kinda feel sorry for you OP. I do understand your pain. The new generation of gamers want different things then us old schoolers... Thats why "our" games are so rare of a jewl.
I don't see the reason of blaming game companies tho. If the games didn't sell why would they make them? They see the trand in gaming and they are making games that people want and will buy. They are not here to do "public service" whatever that means. They make money.
You want deeper, more involving and artsy games? Don't buy their games. Talk to others around you and convince them that its the only way to influence the industry. Your money is powerfull. If you buy the games you despise... How can they know you despise them?
I've been uplinked and downloaded, I've been inputted and outsourced. I know the upside of downsizing, I know the downside of upgrading.
I'm a high-tech low-life. A cutting-edge, state-of-the-art, bi-coastal multi-tasker, and I can give you a gigabyte in a nanosecond.
I'm new-wave, but I'm old-school; and my inner child is outward-bound.
I'm a hot-wired, heat-seeking, warm-hearted cool customer; voice-activated and bio-degradable.
RIP George Carlin.
You are not alone.
Talking bout the issues..and keepin it funky.
L2Read buddy. Everthing that you assume I mean has been explained in previous posts. I dont want a communist/socialist game (I dont even know what this would look like? Everyone being give the same armor lol? Having the government subsidize player mecheants? lmao). I am not saying any thing about the actual US economic system or capitalism in general, I am only explaining why I dont like that mindset in MMOs, particularly by video game publishers. And actual game mechanics inside MMOs themselves are never capitalstic anyways.
And I do not support shitty games that come out. I have not purchased an MMO since Darkfall two years ago. I will only play free trials occasionally, or resubscribe games that I do enjoy.
Seriously, people need to learn to read and/or stop taking their own opinions so seriously when anothers come in conflict with theirs.
And old games were not necissarily more complex, but they left more gameplay to the player in how they wanted to play or experience the game. Not everything was scripted for the players. You did not get a quest telling you to go to X zone as soon as you have finished 80% of the quests in the former one.
Repeated again, Im expressing my own opinions and values towards online games. If you dont enjoy, well I appreciate you sharing yours, but I do not appreciate you tearing my head off. Ad hominem attacks are expressions of people who take life too seriously and cant respect anothers right to have an opinion.
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Edit: I had to take out my apostrophes as they were replaced with [object Window]object window[object Window] messages.
Given such a controversial title are you really surprised that people jumped the gun? You should have expected this.
Maybe so.
There's good capitalism and bad capitalism, as with every single product out there available for purchase. There will always be people trying to make a buck by screwing you, and sadly it seems to happen in the mmo business more than any other business. That's of course because once you buy the software you can't return it. That very fact is enough to draw all the crooks into the fold.
Ultimately though, it comes down to someone actually making a mmo worth purchasing. With the exception of Blizzard, no other mmo dev can do it. That's just the sad fact of the matter. You know what's really funny though? It's those who are GOOD at business who will in the end make us the next big mmo. Sometimes you just have to deal with a lot of chaff to get to the wheat, and there's a lot of chaff developers out there nowadays. They should be ashamed.
I think a lot of it falls on the gamers themselves now. You have the achiement era of gamers now who need to be rewarded just for logging in it seems. How many more times do I have to hear "What do I do now that the achiements are all unlocked"? I mean, who gives a shit? This is the younger crowd, seems most gamers who are somewhere in their mid 20's + don't care for much of that garbage. They play to play..I'm just speaking about gaming in general because it happens on FPS, etc. It really doesn't help the attention span of most gamers is 0 at this point. Soon as something new comes out they bolt.
OP this sentence says it all and will continuing im affraid and its BORING:(
" increased accessibility in character customization, repetitive dungeons, riskless PvP, boring quests"
And instead make game exciting they only go for beautifull grafhics instead of intresting gameplay.
This is going on for years now and even worse today im affraid money is only means that counts and millions love this boring souless mmorpgs/games:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I really hate that generalization, because it's based on a false dichotomy.
Some of those old school MMOs people refer to are still around today, and are still being played. So, no, it's not about "viewing the past through rose-colored glasses". It's about recognizing and acknowledging how MMOs were designed Pre-WoW and how they've been designed post-WoW.
For a time, I played WoW, which inarguably presents the "newer" philosophy of MMO design. When I became (inevitably) bored with it, I could log out and log into FFXI which has a decidedly much more "old-school" design to it. While WoW (and others designed like it) are about "playing a game", MMOs like FFXI (and EQ1, AC1, AC2, L2, UO, etc) is *very* much more about being a virtual character inhabiting a world and all that goes with it.
No need to "look to the past" with any kind of glasses when relevant examples of the OP's statements still exist in the present.
There's another important factor that's often overlooked when having these "present vs. past" discussions. That is, the mindset of the players and how the games were approached.
By and large, most players I encountered and/or knew while playing XI, EQ2, AC2 and other pre-WoW era MMOs had goals... but their goals were all in the present, or at most the near future. They didn't discredit the low or middle end game with the belief that "it was all about end-game". They were all about experiencing and enjoying what they were doing at that moment. They didn't feel they were being "held up" by helping other players complete something, even if it was the 100th time they'd done it - because their enjoyment came from playing the game itself.
In my experience, back then hardly *anyone* I knew was ever in a hurry to get to end-game, or at least weren't so single-mindedly driven by it that all else became irrelevant. I knew hardly *anyone* who was so driven by getting that next "achievement" or next piece of shiny gear, or next reward or something that it consumed most of their attention while playing.
Did those people exist? Absolutely. But not in *nearly* so great numbers as they have in the last several years, since so-called "casual-friendly, accessible MMOs" were introduced.
There was also a much, much stronger sense of community. MMOs back then - in large part - fostered, nurtured and supported communities. And the players enjoyed it. It's not until the start of the WoW era and the introduction of single-player-game minded people started populating the genre that you saw the outcry of "too group focused!" and "make it more soloable!". MMOs have moved away from nurturing or supporting communities, and have moved more toward catering to and rewarding the individual. And players with that "me me me now now now" mindset can't get enough of it.
Back in the pre-WoW days, a player would take time out of what they were doing to help you finish a difficult quest, or take down a difficult creature for the sake of helping you out.. and because they enjoyed the interaction in the virtual world they inhabited for those few (or several) hours a day. They didn't need a tangible reward for doing it. They did it because, whatever they were doing, *they enjoyed the game they were playing* and that was "reward" enough.
Those people do still exist, though they're a true diamond in the rough nowadays. They are also, sadly, often put off from helping thanks to members of the "me me me now now now" crowd demanding their help with everything. I can speak to that myself, being someone who enjoys helping people out and don't mind it at all... Some people these days become downright belligerent if you *dare* say "no" to them because, god forbid, you're doing something yourself. My idea of helping people these days is giving them advice on how to help themselves rather than doing whatever it is they want for them. Funny how quickly people lose interest in talking to you as soon as they find out you're not going to give them free money or do their quests for them.
For example, I was cussed out and called all manner of colorful names in /tell by a brand-new level 8 player in WoW who got pissed because I wouldn't run them through a quest. I had no idea who this person was. I'm standing in Stormwind as a level 45 character, talking to guild-mates getting ready to go do an instance. This person was apparently working through the list of all people in the area asking anyone high level enough to come "help them" in turn as they contacted someone else in my guild shortly after me. My guildmate got the same slew of insults when they declined and - trying to be helpful, mind you - suggested that the quest wasn't difficult that the player just had to go slow and be careful and they'd be fine. But that's indicative of the mindset many people have these days; "I want it, therefor I should have it, and don't you dare tell me I can't, because I'm entitled".
Nowadays many people have too much of a "what's in it for me?" and "how quickly can I get it?" attitude to ever think of taking out of their own time to help someone else. Asking a player to step off their own treadmill, going 200MPH toward level cap to help you with something is often akin to asking them to bite their own hands off in most cases I find.
Many players I've noticed in newer MMOs join guilds not for the social interaction or the people they'll meet. They join a guild that will be the most expedient in getting them what *they* want. If that guild can't get them what they want as quickly as they want it, they're gone.
In a nutshell... a major factor in how many people view old-school MMOs (and who actually *played* them for a time) versus how they view newer MMOs boils down to two very simple words: "Me" vs "We". It's as much about the mentality of those playing the games as it is about how they're made.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
How is that bad? You know before fire services became Socialist, if you didn't have a crest on your home and it was burning down, they would just ignore you, and your home. Leaving you to die, or whatever the fire caused. Many essential organizations work under the principle of Socialism. Fire, Police, medicare, ss, 401k plans, ect. FYI what you are saying the goverment wants to do has already been done. if you are in the United States, then you officially live in a economic system called a 'Mixed economy'.
Also, going full Socialism is next to impossible in the United states the way our economy is set up. However, restricting Capitalism, and placing economic reform in certain areas to tilt towards more of a 'Controlled economy', would make it easier for the government to dig the nation out of debt. The idea isn't to have total Socialism, but have it in areas where it can effectively reduce deficit.
If we don't do something about to spiral of debt, america is litteraly screwed. Right now China owning half of the US isn't the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that the Government is 5-10 trillion dollars down the hole, and the only way they are funding war efforts, ect, is by begging the feds to print them more monopoly money at interest.
We need to stop being so overly dependent on central banking, that was our biggest failure as a nation, and began the cycle of forced economy collapses, and pushes for profit wars. Most people see war and ask how the hell it could be profitable, because it just drains the economy. That's true, but the economy isn't where direct war funds come from. The majority of war funds come straight from the Federal reserve prints. They just loan it to the government at interest, and in turn, the government fuels the war, and then increase taxes, mortgages, and income tax, which all gets sent to the central banks. Our income tax will skyrocket if another war breaks out on top of the ones we are already fighting.
The result of the this would be the destruction of the middle class. This is why Socialism always becomes desirable when Democracy and Capitalism go to shit and become bank puppets. We are walking a fine line towards Fascism. And with the wikileaks incident, the government will probably change the 1st amendment, 4th amendment, 14th amendment, and the espionage act, and put heavy censorship on the net. They already passed an internet kill switch, ratified espionage act to include 'ALL' animal rights activists as suspected terrorists, and have TSA members groping children.
.
We are becoming Fascist btw. It's what many call an inverted totalitarianism, because it still has multiple parties, and democratic elections. It's just your candidate choices will always join the elitesman club. This is why most presidents, ect, are all lawyers, or former bankers, and many from yale university law school. This means they almost always follow the advice of the central banks. They do not care about the peope. If they did, they would have never let the Federal reserve act pass in the early 1900's.
mmm pizza
Hm, someone is not having a good experince playing games.
I say down with the bourgoise! It's time for the Bolsheviks to take this b*tch over. Remember, everyone is equal. Some are just more equal than others. Dasvidanya!
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous