A game isn't something that can be quantified in a dispassionate way, ultimately it all boils down to how you feel about it. In terms of bias I'd say starting cold with no pre-existing notions is about as fair as you can get since the experience after that is largely down to the individual playing the game.
A majority of the game can be seen in a dispassionate way. One can state facts without opinions.
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Back to the contribution, there is a nice little ranking thing on each rift. While it is still being tweaked, it does work like Warhammer PQs. The nice Silverwood/Gloamwood(guardian) Emblems are given to the top people. People lower just get a few motes and those random items.
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
A game isn't something that can be quantified in a dispassionate way, ultimately it all boils down to how you feel about it. In terms of bias I'd say starting cold with no pre-existing notions is about as fair as you can get since the experience after that is largely down to the individual playing the game.
A majority of the game can be seen in a dispassionate way. One can state facts without opinions.
---
Back to the contribution, there is a nice little ranking thing on each rift. While it is still being tweaked, it does work like Warhammer PQs. The nice Silverwood/Gloamwood(guardian) Emblems are given to the top people. People lower just get a few motes and those random items.
Do you know if healing is affected by that ranking system or if it's just pure damage
I believe it does. I know when I played a healer I came out pretty close to top.
Supposedly a dev quote from beta 2
"We appreciate the feedback and are definitely taking a look at the healer situation.
For what it's worth - your rewards are based on the amount of time you spend using abilities (instant abilities are worth the global cooldown). So the more time you spend doing stuff, the more you will get rewarded.
We understand that healers sometimes spend time looking around for the right person to heal, or conserve mana more often, and we're going to be taking a look at what we can do to make this system work better for them.
Time spent using abilities is what counts. Instant spells count as global cooldown in terms of points. So if you're healing, make sure you also use damage abilities (or spam heal if you want).
Note that you must be targeting an invasion or rift NPC to get credit for your offensive spells or a player who is the hate list of one for your defensive ones."
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
The problem with rift is that really there is only 4 classes in the game.. seen as every other warrior will have all the souls.. every scout will have all the scout souls etc. Once the popular builds come out around 75% of player will be running with those builds, meaning every warrior will be the same, every scout etc.
Only 4 optimal playstyles, only 4 classes.
I have to disagree, while there is no doubt that there will be the cookie cutter builds coming in to play, there are still the build options, I know I won't be sticking to one build throughout, if I get invited to a dungeon with need of more support/healing I'll swap my build to help heal and CC or heal and buff, if DPS is needed then that's what I'll be switching to. At least the choice is there for the player to switch roles when they desire to. Sure there will be those that will stick to one build throughout but that seems like denying yourself as the key to having fun with the soul system is to experiment with builds, people are also going to expect you to multi class with your character, sticking with one will severely limit your opportunities.
Thats what i mean though.. yeh you can switch between builds but, unless they pull something out of their hats I ain't seen yet, most warriors will carry all the same builds as the next warrior. And I'm talking long term here.. I know the soul system is fun and will take ages to find the optimal builds.
Any talent tree system will have cookie cutter builds. This is no different and we all know it. Most of us don't have issues with it or enjoy finding builds outside the cookie cutter templates. There's just no avoiding them really. Just because you have the cookiecutter builds doesn't mean you don't have any freedom, or that it's just a percieved freedom with every class
Not everybody is a min/max type of player. If you have problems with games that garner cookie cutter builds then you need to forgo every game that has some kind of talent tree system and stick to set class systems or skill based games like Darkfall
I understand that, but I'm talking from a hardcore point of view here. For example, a serious raiding guild would use the optimal builds and that would result in only 4 class choices for a serious raider. This is considering the current soul combos that work with each other, as I see it there are no more than 3 or 4 soul combinations that make sense for each class type(considering roles like tank, healer, DPS). This of course could be increased by adding lots more soul into the game, which they probably plan to do, or by changing how some souls work.
Removing the threat that Reavers generate for example would make it a viable option to pair with DPS souls, whilst increasing the threat generated by the tanking souls to keep thigns even. Or at least having the option to choose whether your Reaver soul generates threat or not in the soul tree. But as it stands, that sort of customization is not in the game.
First off thanks for everyone who's talking about the key concepts of the game I really wish I could have got in on this discussion while it was happening it seemed pretty lively. Just to go ahead and give my 2 cents on the subject. I think Aovannor has a good point that there is a risk of a cookie cutter build coming up and most of population using it .
I also think that Fibsdk is right in saying that every game has this risk that there are always going to be the people that play the class, and just want to do things optimally.
Here's my point, Rift is unique. There has never been another game out there that has this type of mix and match variation. the fact is that whenever your placing points into the soul tree your not only trying to get improvements in the branches of the tree, but your also wanting the abilities within the roots of the tree. This double motivation is going to make it very difficult to optimize the builds for quite some time. There will be endless debates about if you should split your points between the three trees and gain access to the most divers set of skills, or if you should be focusing on 2 trees and try to get them working in conjunction to make the strongest hybrid you can, or if you should focus on one tree and go for the big 51 point skill in the root system. These are a lot of variables! More than any other game I've played. Most the time when the community has found one build to be the "standard build" the theory crafter's have tested and calculated that X build produces more DPS than any other conceivable build. The variations in the structure of Rifts soul tree's is going to take the theory crafter's much longer to decide on one optimize build. Eventually though they will find one that they agree on.
Here's another thing that needs to be taken into account. Even if you are producing optimal DPS... There is always going to be a trade off. For example, The mage tree has the Pyromancer that is the glass cannon of the mages it can do a lot of damage if built right. However, it's also the weakest and most vulnerable of all the mages, probably of all the classes. There is a good chance that you will die in PvP and in PvE. Let's say a raid boss has an area of effect. Now, if there's only one Pyromancer there's a good chance that the healers are going to be able to heal the mage through the damage. However, if all the mages are Pyromancers there's a good chance that the healers won't be able to keep up with all the damage. This means that the mages will die, and as we all know there's no way that you can produce any DPS when you're dead.
My point being that there's always going to be an unaccounted variable that won't be calculated into the theory crafter's calculations. "Optimal builds" are never truly optimal for every situation... I know, I used to theory craft religiously for WoW.
I believe it does. I know when I played a healer I came out pretty close to top.
Supposedly a dev quote from beta 2
"We appreciate the feedback and are definitely taking a look at the healer situation.
For what it's worth - your rewards are based on the amount of time you spend using abilities (instant abilities are worth the global cooldown). So the more time you spend doing stuff, the more you will get rewarded.
We understand that healers sometimes spend time looking around for the right person to heal, or conserve mana more often, and we're going to be taking a look at what we can do to make this system work better for them.
Time spent using abilities is what counts. Instant spells count as global cooldown in terms of points. So if you're healing, make sure you also use damage abilities (or spam heal if you want).
Note that you must be targeting an invasion or rift NPC to get credit for your offensive spells or a player who is the hate list of one for your defensive ones."
That's a relief! From what I've experienced in the game as long as you are giving it an effort you will get a good reward. I have faith that the devs will balance out the rewards to match the participation for all the classes. Next beta I think I'm going to switch to a Chloromancer build and test out how well this system works for healers. It will be fun to see what the results are
I'm glad everyone here realises that there will be cookie cutter specs that everyone is going to use, and the developers at Trion will actively push players to use, because so many people I have spoken to seem to be under the impression that this isn't the case.
So here is my question: Why, if there are going to be a handful of builds that you can actually use, give players the choice in the first place? Why spend X amount of time developing a system that is in all reality a gimmick and nothing more? I mean, the system Trion have developed for Rift is quite large, but there is no real freedom, so why is there a need for the system in the first place? I just don't understand it. I don't understand why you'd waste time on something with as much scope as the system in Rift, when in reality... there is no actual scope at all.
I'm glad everyone here realises that there will be cookie cutter specs that everyone is going to use, and the developers at Trion will actively push players to use, because so many people I have spoken to seem to be under the impression that this isn't the case.
So here is my question: Why, if there are going to be a handful of builds that you can actually use, give players the choice in the first place? Why spend X amount of time developing a system that is in all reality a gimmick and nothing more? I mean, the system Trion have developed for Rift is quite large, but there is no real freedom, so why is there a need for the system in the first place? I just don't understand it. I don't understand why you'd waste time on something with as much scope as the system in Rift, when in reality... there is no actual scope at all.
I'm not sure I'm fully grasping what you're trying to say Infalible. Could you elaborate a bit more on the point that there is no actual scope at all. It sounds like an intriguing thought.
The Extra Credits folks put together some really well thought out videos on gaming.
One of their points is there is basically choice and calculation. Calculation is usually viewed as choice, but really it's about picking the best option for a goal.
As say a Cleric in Rift, you have choices and calculations. First you Choose your role, healer, tank, ranged dps, melee dps. Then you calculate which skills best suit that role.
Now take a Warrior. You have less roles, tank or dps, with a splash of support. A tank build really has little no choices, and is narrowed down to mostly calculation.
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
Isn't part of the entertainment the road to knowledge? Isn't it better to learn by trial and error what works and what doesn't for you instead of surrendering yourself into the mindset that "I'll end up to the best build anyway, why isn't automated in the first place?"
Do you people really advocate less choice (or calculation or whatever you want to call it), because eventually the optimal choice will be shared by more than one person? Is the path of knowledge that leads to that choice irrelevant?
I'm glad everyone here realises that there will be cookie cutter specs that everyone is going to use, and the developers at Trion will actively push players to use, because so many people I have spoken to seem to be under the impression that this isn't the case.
So here is my question: Why, if there are going to be a handful of builds that you can actually use, give players the choice in the first place? Why spend X amount of time developing a system that is in all reality a gimmick and nothing more? I mean, the system Trion have developed for Rift is quite large, but there is no real freedom, so why is there a need for the system in the first place? I just don't understand it. I don't understand why you'd waste time on something with as much scope as the system in Rift, when in reality... there is no actual scope at all.
I'm not sure I'm fully grasping what you're trying to say Infalible. Could you elaborate a bit more on the point that there is no actual scope at all. It sounds like an intriguing thought.
Cookie cutter doesn't mean everything else is on the wayside, or nothing else is viable the way I see it. I also don't agree that Trion will actively push those templates. I see no evidence of that.
Isn't part of the entertainment the road to knowledge? Isn't it better to learn by trial and error what works and what doesn't for you instead of surrendering yourself into the mindset that "I'll end up to the best build anyway, why isn't automated in the first place?"
Do you people really advocate less choice (or calculation or whatever you want to call it), because eventually the optimal choice will be shared by more than one person? Is the path of knowledge that leads to that choice irrelevant?
You can see it as a game system that as the potential of separating the "dumb" from the "less dumb", but, in the end, the "dumb" will use the few brain cells they have & go look on the interweb for what the "less dumb" have done & copie it. So whats the point of such design if the end result is the same? I'd rather see Trion putting their effort into something else tbh. (not that I'm going to play this game lol)
Anyways, there's also the fact, imo, that the choice is really but an illusion in this case. Many skills are but one & the same or totally useless... I'd say that knowledge in this case is realizing, through the hype, that there isn't much there for it being one of the main selling arguements.
Originally posted by Infalible I'm glad everyone here realises that there will be cookie cutter specs that everyone is going to use, and the developers at Trion will actively push players to use, because so many people I have spoken to seem to be under the impression that this isn't the case.
What would you expect?
What MMO have you played that people don't log in and /shout "What's the best build for a healer? What's the best job for a tank? Where do I put my points as a.. " Not sure how many MMOs you've played, or game forums read but this is the central question new players will drone on constantly about in any game.
All Trion did was recognize with SO many soul options and SO many jobs, people (especially WoW people) will come to a game like this and be completley LOST because they have SO many choices to make.
So Trion simplifies it for THOSE people and asks them what do they want to do; heal, dps or tank?
If they say heal, they say what type of healer do you want to be: defensive or offensive healer?
If they say offensive healer, Trion asks them to they want to cast spells in the back or fight on the front line?
If they say casting, Trion says ok: this job is what you will probably want (two of them usually)
Then Trion says: these other two jobs are best SUGGESTIONS suited to go with the one you just chose. It doesn't say you have to pick it.
Your post is one of the poorest criticisms I've ever seen regarding cookie cutter specs and weakest arguments about 'no real freedom' I've ever seen.
The reason you have so many choices is that if some people use the cookie cut build SUGGESTED, others will purposely choose another type purposely build it to defeat the cutter build. Then someone will make a build to counter that build. Then the cutter build will have the advantage vs the third build. So on and so forth and that's just for PvP. The PvE builds in this game are pretty diverse because mobs are usually pretty stupid in any MMO, so you can play what type of souls you want for your style to fight most of them.
I have no idea what you mean no real freedom. You are only limited by your imagination in this game, which scares a lot of people and that's why Trion put suggestions in the game for builds.
I'm glad everyone here realises that there will be cookie cutter specs that everyone is going to use, and the developers at Trion will actively push players to use, because so many people I have spoken to seem to be under the impression that this isn't the case.
So here is my question: Why, if there are going to be a handful of builds that you can actually use, give players the choice in the first place? Why spend X amount of time developing a system that is in all reality a gimmick and nothing more? I mean, the system Trion have developed for Rift is quite large, but there is no real freedom, so why is there a need for the system in the first place? I just don't understand it. I don't understand why you'd waste time on something with as much scope as the system in Rift, when in reality... there is no actual scope at all.
I'm not sure I'm fully grasping what you're trying to say Infalible. Could you elaborate a bit more on the point that there is no actual scope at all. It sounds like an intriguing thought.
My point is that the system in place in Rift creates the illusion of choice, but that there is - in reality - no real choice at all. Trion will balance the game so that there are a handful of specs suitable for use, and will probably actively push players into using the specs through various means. For example, if a group of players discover a spec that isn't one of the few specs Trion would like people to use, it stands to reason that Trion would then nerf that spec in such a way that it forces people away from it. I'm not saying that is a bad thing; it is the done thing because it makes balancing a much, much, much easier task.
However the developers spent a great deal of time creating a system that gives that illusion of choice in teh first place. My question it: why bother? The illusion is promptly smashed, and no one who gets to end game is going to be under the impression that there actually is a lot of scope for choice, so why spend the time developing that system, when that system is - in truth - an illusion?
Why spend so much time developing something that makes the game seem unique, when in fact there is no real difference between how class specs will be set up in Rift to World of Warcraft, for example. Ultimately, when you reomove that illusion that Trion have created, the system is almost identicle. I just don't see why they spent so much time on it; it really wasn't needed.
Originally posted by Infalible My point is that the system in place in Rift creates the illusion of choice, but that there is - in reality - no real choice at all.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
When I was making my toon, and Trion said these are the suggested souls to go with this class, I thought it would be neat to swap in another type of soul instead, so I chose ones that they didn't recommend.
When I went to the Warfront, I was killing people and they were killing me as well so I couldn't compete because I was supposed to kill them ALL the time.
I had nothing but the illusion of choice even though I swore I purposely picked something else I wanted in .. hey, wait a minute!
My point is that the system in place in Rift creates the illusion of choice, but that there is - in reality - no real choice at all.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
No you don't. You selectively quoted my post so that you could twist what I said in the best way to make your point valid. In reality, you read what I said and chose to ignore the points that I made just so you could troll. Well done.
The Extra Credits folks put together some really well thought out videos on gaming.
One of their points is there is basically choice and calculation. Calculation is usually viewed as choice, but really it's about picking the best option for a goal.
As say a Cleric in Rift, you have choices and calculations. First you Choose your role, healer, tank, ranged dps, melee dps. Then you calculate which skills best suit that role.
Now take a Warrior. You have less roles, tank or dps, with a splash of support. A tank build really has little no choices, and is narrowed down to mostly calculation.
Fascinating!!! As a player that loves the calculation aspect I've really never considered the choice within games. This is a very interesting idea... So let me get this straight. For Rift say you have a choice as a mage whether you want to be a support healer (Chloromancer), Direct damage (pyromancer/ stormcaller), Control specialist (Dominator), Damage over time (warlock), minion master (necromancer, or elementalist), or a buffer (Archon). You also may have competing drives to want to be one or more of the roles above. This would lead to conflict. and thus a decision about the choices between specs.
I can see where the calculation comes in . If your goal is strict dps then you are going to calculate between all the potential damage roles... However, every situation is unique... Say there is a boss fight where you are paralyzed for 10 seconds every minute just for shits. The calculations would seem to gravitate towards the DOT or minion specialist (assuming the DOT's still ticked and the minions weren't paralyzed) this then comes to a claculation between the specs. If the boss fight is different... say the boss takes improved damage from critical hits then you would calculate that the pyormancer would be the right decision
Now it would seem that rift has the long term goal of saving Telara, you going to do this eventually by being the dominant force within Telara, which means that you are going to have to beat out all other opposing forces within Telara that is the goal. Now there's also the choices within the game as to whether you should go after the rifts for a possible reward, but since there is no guarantee of reward and a chance that you will lose money you are left with a choice... Go after the rifts or not. Same with artifacts they take time and sometimes involve risk for the player to collect but there's always a chance that they will prove beneficial. These are two choices within the game that oppose your ultimate goal, but have the chance to make your journey to the ultimate goal easier with the possibility of rewards. That seems like a very dynamic choice. The choice also of guild, whether to risk auctioning an item and possibly losing money, choosing a more defensive build to avoid the death penalty, or a more offensive build to get to the ultimate goal faster, etc. all this is choice within the game. The soul tree just seems like an artifice... it is a calculation masked as a choice.
So why not just get rid of the soul tree.... The answer is Different strokes for different folks... I'm a very logical individual I love the calculating and optimizing... it's always a continual challenge. Every patch has the chance to nullify all the calculations I did before the patch. The Soul tree provides a endless calculation that I can continually burn away at trying to solve... in truth it may be solvable, but you never really know if that is the true solution there's always a chance that the one calculation you proclaim as the most efficient is wrong.
What we all need to keep in mind is that Simply because something is believed by a large amount of people does not mean that it is right... This is a logical fallacy. There is no reason that a million people can't be mistaken anymore than 1 person is mistaken. Most of the communities within an MMO take the theory crafter's word for what is the best build, simply because the amount of math involved is overwhelming, but I assure you the theory crafter's are usually wrong and didn't account for a variable within their calculations....
So this leads to a very interesting dynamic. On one hand you have the theory crafter's saying that this is the solution for a problem that really has no solution, and on the other hand you have your desire to play X class the way that you want... All of this is to try and find the best way to accomplish your ultimate goal to save Telara. The only way to find out which one is better is to have faith in yourself and try out your own builds and other's builds to find one that you believe will lead you to your ultimate goal according to your personal style.
I hope that this I didn't lose anyone in that block of text, please ask me to elaborate on anything you didn't quite get
This coming from someone who looks at the classes, souls and trees in a game like Trion and says freedom is an illusion and there's no real choice, especially when comparing it to any other MMO out today.
Especially when 'infallible' isn't spelled 'infalible'.
This coming from someone who looks at the classes, souls and trees in a game like Trion and says freedom is an illusion and there's no real choice, especially when comparing it to any other MMO out today.
Especially when 'infallible' isn't spelled 'infalible'.
I'll take that as a compliment.
This one time at Band Camp I was a Rogue and I was DPSing and stuff. Our group couldn't kill this Boss at the Band Camp Instance. So I was like I will switch roles and be a Bard and heal and stuff and support. So like we took down the Boss and I was like oh I healed and did support with my group and that helped for this Boss. Then I was like, I will switch back to my DPS class and kill stuff. Yeah that Boss fight was an illusion because the class system is an illusion. Yep.
To infalible- You can't tell people a lie, if they've seen the truth with their own eyes.
The Extra Credits folks put together some really well thought out videos on gaming.
One of their points is there is basically choice and calculation. Calculation is usually viewed as choice, but really it's about picking the best option for a goal.
As say a Cleric in Rift, you have choices and calculations. First you Choose your role, healer, tank, ranged dps, melee dps. Then you calculate which skills best suit that role.
Now take a Warrior. You have less roles, tank or dps, with a splash of support. A tank build really has little no choices, and is narrowed down to mostly calculation.
Fascinating!!! As a player that loves the calculation aspect I've really never considered the choice within games. This is a very interesting idea... So let me get this straight. For Rift say you have a choice as a mage whether you want to be a support healer (Chloromancer), Direct damage (pyromancer/ stormcaller), Control specialist (Dominator), Damage over time (warlock), minion master (necromancer, or elementalist), or a buffer (Archon). You also may have competing drives to want to be one or more of the roles above. This would lead to conflict. and thus a decision about the choices between specs.
I can see where the calculation comes in . If your goal is strict dps then you are going to calculate between all the potential damage roles... However, every situation is unique... Say there is a boss fight where you are paralyzed for 10 seconds every minute just for shits. The calculations would seem to gravitate towards the DOT or minion specialist (assuming the DOT's still ticked and the minions weren't paralyzed) this then comes to a claculation between the specs. If the boss fight is different... say the boss takes improved damage from critical hits then you would calculate that the pyormancer would be the right decision
Now it would seem that rift has the long term goal of saving Telara, you going to do this eventually by being the dominant force within Telara, which means that you are going to have to beat out all other opposing forces within Telara that is the goal. Now there's also the choices within the game as to whether you should go after the rifts for a possible reward, but since there is no guarantee of reward and a chance that you will lose money you are left with a choice... Go after the rifts or not. Same with artifacts they take time and sometimes involve risk for the player to collect but there's always a chance that they will prove beneficial. These are two choices within the game that oppose your ultimate goal, but have the chance to make your journey to the ultimate goal easier with the possibility of rewards. That seems like a very dynamic choice. The choice also of guild, whether to risk auctioning an item and possibly losing money, choosing a more defensive build to avoid the death penalty, or a more offensive build to get to the ultimate goal faster, etc. all this is choice within the game. The soul tree just seems like an artifice... it is a calculation masked as a choice.
So why not just get rid of the soul tree.... The answer is Different strokes for different folks... I'm a very logical individual I love the calculating and optimizing... it's always a continual challenge. Every patch has the chance to nullify all the calculations I did before the patch. The Soul tree provides a endless calculation that I can continually burn away at trying to solve... in truth it may be solvable, but you never really know if that is the true solution there's always a chance that the one calculation you proclaim as the most efficient is wrong.
What we all need to keep in mind is that Simply because something is believed by a large amount of people does not mean that it is right... This is a logical fallacy. There is no reason that a million people can't be mistaken anymore than 1 person is mistaken. Most of the communities within an MMO take the theory crafter's word for what is the best build, simply because the amount of math involved is overwhelming, but I assure you the theory crafter's are usually wrong and didn't account for a variable within their calculations....
So this leads to a very interesting dynamic. On one hand you have the theory crafter's saying that this is the solution for a problem that really has no solution, and on the other hand you have your desire to play X class the way that you want... All of this is to try and find the best way to accomplish your ultimate goal to save Telara. The only way to find out which one is better is to have faith in yourself and try out your own builds and other's builds to find one that you believe will lead you to your ultimate goal according to your personal style.
I hope that this I didn't lose anyone in that block of text, please ask me to elaborate on anything you didn't quite get
I read most of it, but it seems to wander a bit. The thing is you're making a choice/calculation on one build/role. You have up to four roles in the game. That means you will calculate what the best PvP build is. You will calculate what the best group build is. You will calculate what the best solo build is, etc.
Check out the Warrior video at game trailers. Those builds they are showing are expamples of what you can be. The best thing is you can be any of those builds with one character, just switch your role out of combat and you have a new build.
This coming from someone who looks at the classes, souls and trees in a game like Trion and says freedom is an illusion and there's no real choice, especially when comparing it to any other MMO out today.
Especially when 'infallible' isn't spelled 'infalible'.
I'll take that as a compliment.
This one time at Band Camp I was a Rogue and I was DPSing and stuff. Our group couldn't kill this Boss at the Band Camp Instance. So I was like I will switch roles and be a Bard and heal and stuff and support. So like we took down the Boss and I was like oh I healed and did support with my group and that helped for this Boss. Then I was like, I will switch back to my DPS class and kill stuff. Yeah that Boss fight was an illusion because the class system is an illusion. Yep.
To infalible- You can't tell people a lie, if they've seen the truth with their own eyes.
This scenario is a great example of what can be done with the soul system and being able to switch between so many roles mid game is a big plus.. BUT.. will it last? that sort of thing is hard to balance and may make the game too easy. I hope it stays this way.. but I predict restrictions will be put on when, where or how many times you can instantly switch roles.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
I've mentioned it before on these forums but I think the best way to solve any concerns about the soul system would be to allow cross class somehow.. such as a warrior having the bard soul as well, for example. I'm not saying full access, but just some way of making that warrior/mage or reaver/ranger.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
I read most of it, but it seems to wander a bit. The thing is you're making a choice/calculation on one build/role. You have up to four roles in the game. That means you will calculate what the best PvP build is. You will calculate what the best group build is. You will calculate what the best solo build is, etc.
Check out the Warrior video at game trailers. Those builds they are showing are expamples of what you can be. The best thing is you can be any of those builds with one character, just switch your role out of combat and you have a new build.
Thanks for the feedback Watchwatcha. I do think that I tried to cover a bit too much in one post I agree with you that there are going to be calculations for each class and each role that class can do. However, what I was trying to emphasize is that we take these calculations as the word of God, infallible. That's not even close to what happens in reality. The theory crafter's out there hold constant for so many variables when they are doing their calculations that it really can't be used in game as the one and only possible build.
The reason you can't always trust the "standard build" is two fold. First, the build is based on calculations done by Theory crafter's that are doing these calculations in theoretical scenarios and not in real time... sometimes theory doesn't mix with reality... There are unknown variable that influence the character in which case the "optimal build" they are using isn't the "optimal build" they should be using. In a world where there is constant change and constant fluctuation there isn't going to be one "optimal DPS build" for all DPS scenarios. There may be a build that is good to use in a particular fight or situation, but even then the "optimal build" won't be optimal for a good 2-3 years until after the game is released.
The reason that a "optimal DPS build" can't be assured to be optimal is because there is a chance that the original calculation is wrong... it's missing some variable or some variation that isn't accounted for... Especially in the Soul tree used In rift, between the branches, the roots, and the 8 classes there is a lot more possibilities that all need to be empirically tested before a "optimal build" can be formulated. And even when it is formulated there's usually something that the original statistician didn't account for! So The old "optimal build" is modified to a new "optimal build" again and again. especially when you have patches that change around the builds. This is why the soul tree is a continuously unsolvable puzzle for the logical statisticians...
Ultimately there really isn't any "optimal build" as an abstract entity for every role. The best role is dependent on the individual and their analysis of the situation at hand, the knowledge of their tree, and the level of their skill in properly executing that knowledge. The optimal build is a fabrication produced by the theory crafter's and is flawed by it's very nature upon which it was conceived.
I'm amused right now because I posed a reality based on the actual way that MMOs are developed, and progressed over their life spam, and the only counter arguments I've seen so far are: one post that insulted me, one post that made a statement about truth and then failed to back it and, finally, a post that made a sarcastic diatribe about how the Rift system works.
Says a lot about you people. Instead of having a reasonable conversation about the issue at hand, I posed a point and you all just got on your soapboxes and trolled.
I've mentioned it before on these forums but I think the best way to solve any concerns about the soul system would be to allow cross class somehow.. such as a warrior having the bard soul as well, for example. I'm not saying full access, but just some way of making that warrior/mage or reaver/ranger.
I agree Aovannor, this would be a great game, but don't you think this would be overwhelming for new players, and for those that really don't like to think a lot when they are playing the game?
Comments
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Back to the contribution, there is a nice little ranking thing on each rift. While it is still being tweaked, it does work like Warhammer PQs. The nice Silverwood/Gloamwood(guardian) Emblems are given to the top people. People lower just get a few motes and those random items.
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
Do you know if healing is affected by that ranking system or if it's just pure damage
I believe it does. I know when I played a healer I came out pretty close to top.
Supposedly a dev quote from beta 2
"We appreciate the feedback and are definitely taking a look at the healer situation.
For what it's worth - your rewards are based on the amount of time you spend using abilities (instant abilities are worth the global cooldown). So the more time you spend doing stuff, the more you will get rewarded.
We understand that healers sometimes spend time looking around for the right person to heal, or conserve mana more often, and we're going to be taking a look at what we can do to make this system work better for them.
Time spent using abilities is what counts. Instant spells count as global cooldown in terms of points. So if you're healing, make sure you also use damage abilities (or spam heal if you want).
Note that you must be targeting an invasion or rift NPC to get credit for your offensive spells or a player who is the hate list of one for your defensive ones."
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
First off thanks for everyone who's talking about the key concepts of the game I really wish I could have got in on this discussion while it was happening it seemed pretty lively. Just to go ahead and give my 2 cents on the subject. I think Aovannor has a good point that there is a risk of a cookie cutter build coming up and most of population using it .
I also think that Fibsdk is right in saying that every game has this risk that there are always going to be the people that play the class, and just want to do things optimally.
Here's my point, Rift is unique. There has never been another game out there that has this type of mix and match variation. the fact is that whenever your placing points into the soul tree your not only trying to get improvements in the branches of the tree, but your also wanting the abilities within the roots of the tree. This double motivation is going to make it very difficult to optimize the builds for quite some time. There will be endless debates about if you should split your points between the three trees and gain access to the most divers set of skills, or if you should be focusing on 2 trees and try to get them working in conjunction to make the strongest hybrid you can, or if you should focus on one tree and go for the big 51 point skill in the root system. These are a lot of variables! More than any other game I've played. Most the time when the community has found one build to be the "standard build" the theory crafter's have tested and calculated that X build produces more DPS than any other conceivable build. The variations in the structure of Rifts soul tree's is going to take the theory crafter's much longer to decide on one optimize build. Eventually though they will find one that they agree on.
Here's another thing that needs to be taken into account. Even if you are producing optimal DPS... There is always going to be a trade off. For example, The mage tree has the Pyromancer that is the glass cannon of the mages it can do a lot of damage if built right. However, it's also the weakest and most vulnerable of all the mages, probably of all the classes. There is a good chance that you will die in PvP and in PvE. Let's say a raid boss has an area of effect. Now, if there's only one Pyromancer there's a good chance that the healers are going to be able to heal the mage through the damage. However, if all the mages are Pyromancers there's a good chance that the healers won't be able to keep up with all the damage. This means that the mages will die, and as we all know there's no way that you can produce any DPS when you're dead.
My point being that there's always going to be an unaccounted variable that won't be calculated into the theory crafter's calculations. "Optimal builds" are never truly optimal for every situation... I know, I used to theory craft religiously for WoW.
That's a relief! From what I've experienced in the game as long as you are giving it an effort you will get a good reward. I have faith that the devs will balance out the rewards to match the participation for all the classes. Next beta I think I'm going to switch to a Chloromancer build and test out how well this system works for healers. It will be fun to see what the results are
I'm glad everyone here realises that there will be cookie cutter specs that everyone is going to use, and the developers at Trion will actively push players to use, because so many people I have spoken to seem to be under the impression that this isn't the case.
So here is my question: Why, if there are going to be a handful of builds that you can actually use, give players the choice in the first place? Why spend X amount of time developing a system that is in all reality a gimmick and nothing more? I mean, the system Trion have developed for Rift is quite large, but there is no real freedom, so why is there a need for the system in the first place? I just don't understand it. I don't understand why you'd waste time on something with as much scope as the system in Rift, when in reality... there is no actual scope at all.
http://www.themmoquest.com - MMO commentary from an overly angry brit. OFFICIALLY LAUNCHED!
I'm not sure I'm fully grasping what you're trying to say Infalible. Could you elaborate a bit more on the point that there is no actual scope at all. It sounds like an intriguing thought.
Choice and Conflict
The Extra Credits folks put together some really well thought out videos on gaming.
One of their points is there is basically choice and calculation. Calculation is usually viewed as choice, but really it's about picking the best option for a goal.
As say a Cleric in Rift, you have choices and calculations. First you Choose your role, healer, tank, ranged dps, melee dps. Then you calculate which skills best suit that role.
Now take a Warrior. You have less roles, tank or dps, with a splash of support. A tank build really has little no choices, and is narrowed down to mostly calculation.
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
Isn't part of the entertainment the road to knowledge? Isn't it better to learn by trial and error what works and what doesn't for you instead of surrendering yourself into the mindset that "I'll end up to the best build anyway, why isn't automated in the first place?"
Do you people really advocate less choice (or calculation or whatever you want to call it), because eventually the optimal choice will be shared by more than one person? Is the path of knowledge that leads to that choice irrelevant?
Cookie cutter doesn't mean everything else is on the wayside, or nothing else is viable the way I see it. I also don't agree that Trion will actively push those templates. I see no evidence of that.
You can see it as a game system that as the potential of separating the "dumb" from the "less dumb", but, in the end, the "dumb" will use the few brain cells they have & go look on the interweb for what the "less dumb" have done & copie it. So whats the point of such design if the end result is the same? I'd rather see Trion putting their effort into something else tbh. (not that I'm going to play this game lol)
Anyways, there's also the fact, imo, that the choice is really but an illusion in this case. Many skills are but one & the same or totally useless... I'd say that knowledge in this case is realizing, through the hype, that there isn't much there for it being one of the main selling arguements.
What would you expect?
What MMO have you played that people don't log in and /shout "What's the best build for a healer? What's the best job for a tank? Where do I put my points as a.. " Not sure how many MMOs you've played, or game forums read but this is the central question new players will drone on constantly about in any game.
All Trion did was recognize with SO many soul options and SO many jobs, people (especially WoW people) will come to a game like this and be completley LOST because they have SO many choices to make.
So Trion simplifies it for THOSE people and asks them what do they want to do; heal, dps or tank?
If they say heal, they say what type of healer do you want to be: defensive or offensive healer?
If they say offensive healer, Trion asks them to they want to cast spells in the back or fight on the front line?
If they say casting, Trion says ok: this job is what you will probably want (two of them usually)
Then Trion says: these other two jobs are best SUGGESTIONS suited to go with the one you just chose. It doesn't say you have to pick it.
Your post is one of the poorest criticisms I've ever seen regarding cookie cutter specs and weakest arguments about 'no real freedom' I've ever seen.
The reason you have so many choices is that if some people use the cookie cut build SUGGESTED, others will purposely choose another type purposely build it to defeat the cutter build. Then someone will make a build to counter that build. Then the cutter build will have the advantage vs the third build. So on and so forth and that's just for PvP. The PvE builds in this game are pretty diverse because mobs are usually pretty stupid in any MMO, so you can play what type of souls you want for your style to fight most of them.
I have no idea what you mean no real freedom. You are only limited by your imagination in this game, which scares a lot of people and that's why Trion put suggestions in the game for builds.
"TO MICHAEL!"
My point is that the system in place in Rift creates the illusion of choice, but that there is - in reality - no real choice at all. Trion will balance the game so that there are a handful of specs suitable for use, and will probably actively push players into using the specs through various means. For example, if a group of players discover a spec that isn't one of the few specs Trion would like people to use, it stands to reason that Trion would then nerf that spec in such a way that it forces people away from it. I'm not saying that is a bad thing; it is the done thing because it makes balancing a much, much, much easier task.
However the developers spent a great deal of time creating a system that gives that illusion of choice in teh first place. My question it: why bother? The illusion is promptly smashed, and no one who gets to end game is going to be under the impression that there actually is a lot of scope for choice, so why spend the time developing that system, when that system is - in truth - an illusion?
Why spend so much time developing something that makes the game seem unique, when in fact there is no real difference between how class specs will be set up in Rift to World of Warcraft, for example. Ultimately, when you reomove that illusion that Trion have created, the system is almost identicle. I just don't see why they spent so much time on it; it really wasn't needed.
http://www.themmoquest.com - MMO commentary from an overly angry brit. OFFICIALLY LAUNCHED!
When I was making my toon, and Trion said these are the suggested souls to go with this class, I thought it would be neat to swap in another type of soul instead, so I chose ones that they didn't recommend.
When I went to the Warfront, I was killing people and they were killing me as well so I couldn't compete because I was supposed to kill them ALL the time.
I had nothing but the illusion of choice even though I swore I purposely picked something else I wanted in .. hey, wait a minute!
"TO MICHAEL!"
No you don't. You selectively quoted my post so that you could twist what I said in the best way to make your point valid. In reality, you read what I said and chose to ignore the points that I made just so you could troll. Well done.
You're ignorant.
http://www.themmoquest.com - MMO commentary from an overly angry brit. OFFICIALLY LAUNCHED!
Fascinating!!! As a player that loves the calculation aspect I've really never considered the choice within games. This is a very interesting idea... So let me get this straight. For Rift say you have a choice as a mage whether you want to be a support healer (Chloromancer), Direct damage (pyromancer/ stormcaller), Control specialist (Dominator), Damage over time (warlock), minion master (necromancer, or elementalist), or a buffer (Archon). You also may have competing drives to want to be one or more of the roles above. This would lead to conflict. and thus a decision about the choices between specs.
I can see where the calculation comes in . If your goal is strict dps then you are going to calculate between all the potential damage roles... However, every situation is unique... Say there is a boss fight where you are paralyzed for 10 seconds every minute just for shits. The calculations would seem to gravitate towards the DOT or minion specialist (assuming the DOT's still ticked and the minions weren't paralyzed) this then comes to a claculation between the specs. If the boss fight is different... say the boss takes improved damage from critical hits then you would calculate that the pyormancer would be the right decision
Now it would seem that rift has the long term goal of saving Telara, you going to do this eventually by being the dominant force within Telara, which means that you are going to have to beat out all other opposing forces within Telara that is the goal. Now there's also the choices within the game as to whether you should go after the rifts for a possible reward, but since there is no guarantee of reward and a chance that you will lose money you are left with a choice... Go after the rifts or not. Same with artifacts they take time and sometimes involve risk for the player to collect but there's always a chance that they will prove beneficial. These are two choices within the game that oppose your ultimate goal, but have the chance to make your journey to the ultimate goal easier with the possibility of rewards. That seems like a very dynamic choice. The choice also of guild, whether to risk auctioning an item and possibly losing money, choosing a more defensive build to avoid the death penalty, or a more offensive build to get to the ultimate goal faster, etc. all this is choice within the game. The soul tree just seems like an artifice... it is a calculation masked as a choice.
So why not just get rid of the soul tree.... The answer is Different strokes for different folks... I'm a very logical individual I love the calculating and optimizing... it's always a continual challenge. Every patch has the chance to nullify all the calculations I did before the patch. The Soul tree provides a endless calculation that I can continually burn away at trying to solve... in truth it may be solvable, but you never really know if that is the true solution there's always a chance that the one calculation you proclaim as the most efficient is wrong.
What we all need to keep in mind is that Simply because something is believed by a large amount of people does not mean that it is right... This is a logical fallacy. There is no reason that a million people can't be mistaken anymore than 1 person is mistaken. Most of the communities within an MMO take the theory crafter's word for what is the best build, simply because the amount of math involved is overwhelming, but I assure you the theory crafter's are usually wrong and didn't account for a variable within their calculations....
So this leads to a very interesting dynamic. On one hand you have the theory crafter's saying that this is the solution for a problem that really has no solution, and on the other hand you have your desire to play X class the way that you want... All of this is to try and find the best way to accomplish your ultimate goal to save Telara. The only way to find out which one is better is to have faith in yourself and try out your own builds and other's builds to find one that you believe will lead you to your ultimate goal according to your personal style.
I hope that this I didn't lose anyone in that block of text, please ask me to elaborate on anything you didn't quite get
Especially when 'infallible' isn't spelled 'infalible'.
I'll take that as a compliment.
"TO MICHAEL!"
This one time at Band Camp I was a Rogue and I was DPSing and stuff. Our group couldn't kill this Boss at the Band Camp Instance. So I was like I will switch roles and be a Bard and heal and stuff and support. So like we took down the Boss and I was like oh I healed and did support with my group and that helped for this Boss. Then I was like, I will switch back to my DPS class and kill stuff. Yeah that Boss fight was an illusion because the class system is an illusion. Yep.
To infalible- You can't tell people a lie, if they've seen the truth with their own eyes.
I read most of it, but it seems to wander a bit. The thing is you're making a choice/calculation on one build/role. You have up to four roles in the game. That means you will calculate what the best PvP build is. You will calculate what the best group build is. You will calculate what the best solo build is, etc.
Check out the Warrior video at game trailers. Those builds they are showing are expamples of what you can be. The best thing is you can be any of those builds with one character, just switch your role out of combat and you have a new build.
This scenario is a great example of what can be done with the soul system and being able to switch between so many roles mid game is a big plus.. BUT.. will it last? that sort of thing is hard to balance and may make the game too easy. I hope it stays this way.. but I predict restrictions will be put on when, where or how many times you can instantly switch roles.
I've mentioned it before on these forums but I think the best way to solve any concerns about the soul system would be to allow cross class somehow.. such as a warrior having the bard soul as well, for example. I'm not saying full access, but just some way of making that warrior/mage or reaver/ranger.
Error Post
Thanks for the feedback Watchwatcha. I do think that I tried to cover a bit too much in one post
I agree with you that there are going to be calculations for each class and each role that class can do. However, what I was trying to emphasize is that we take these calculations as the word of God, infallible. That's not even close to what happens in reality. The theory crafter's out there hold constant for so many variables when they are doing their calculations that it really can't be used in game as the one and only possible build.
The reason you can't always trust the "standard build" is two fold. First, the build is based on calculations done by Theory crafter's that are doing these calculations in theoretical scenarios and not in real time... sometimes theory doesn't mix with reality... There are unknown variable that influence the character in which case the "optimal build" they are using isn't the "optimal build" they should be using. In a world where there is constant change and constant fluctuation there isn't going to be one "optimal DPS build" for all DPS scenarios. There may be a build that is good to use in a particular fight or situation, but even then the "optimal build" won't be optimal for a good 2-3 years until after the game is released.
The reason that a "optimal DPS build" can't be assured to be optimal is because there is a chance that the original calculation is wrong... it's missing some variable or some variation that isn't accounted for... Especially in the Soul tree used In rift, between the branches, the roots, and the 8 classes there is a lot more possibilities that all need to be empirically tested before a "optimal build" can be formulated. And even when it is formulated there's usually something that the original statistician didn't account for! So The old "optimal build" is modified to a new "optimal build" again and again. especially when you have patches that change around the builds. This is why the soul tree is a continuously unsolvable puzzle for the logical statisticians...
Ultimately there really isn't any "optimal build" as an abstract entity for every role. The best role is dependent on the individual and their analysis of the situation at hand, the knowledge of their tree, and the level of their skill in properly executing that knowledge. The optimal build is a fabrication produced by the theory crafter's and is flawed by it's very nature upon which it was conceived.
I'm amused right now because I posed a reality based on the actual way that MMOs are developed, and progressed over their life spam, and the only counter arguments I've seen so far are: one post that insulted me, one post that made a statement about truth and then failed to back it and, finally, a post that made a sarcastic diatribe about how the Rift system works.
Says a lot about you people. Instead of having a reasonable conversation about the issue at hand, I posed a point and you all just got on your soapboxes and trolled.
http://www.themmoquest.com - MMO commentary from an overly angry brit. OFFICIALLY LAUNCHED!
I agree Aovannor, this would be a great game, but don't you think this would be overwhelming for new players, and for those that really don't like to think a lot when they are playing the game?