Well... first of all.. there is no such thing as a theme park game... that is an incorrect term that is not used in the game industry by trained professionals.. there are many loose terms thrown around, but what your looking for is the term "Linear"... the post should be titled Linear gameplay vs sandbox gameplay.... and you need to understand all of the elements that go into an MMO like world of warcraft, or any other game out there right now like Age of Conan, Rift, Everquest 2, so on and so fourth. You need to understand what a hybrid build actually looks like and play through a game that is considered a hybrid of both Linear and Sandbox. before jumping to any conclusions about how a game is structured and what makes it good vs its peers.... I'll be writting up an essay here shortly on proper game design terms and understanding how things work from a game designers perspective :P
Yeah, well, we call it "theme park". And you seem to know what we mean by that. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
Well... first of all.. there is no such thing as a theme park game... that is an incorrect term that is not used in the game industry by trained professionals.. there are many loose terms thrown around, but what your looking for is the term "Linear"... the post should be titled Linear gameplay vs sandbox gameplay.... and you need to understand all of the elements that go into an MMO like world of warcraft, or any other game out there right now like Age of Conan, Rift, Everquest 2, so on and so fourth. You need to understand what a hybrid build actually looks like and play through a game that is considered a hybrid of both Linear and Sandbox. before jumping to any conclusions about how a game is structured and what makes it good vs its peers.... I'll be writting up an essay here shortly on proper game design terms and understanding how things work from a game designers perspective :P
Yeah, well, we call it "theme park". And you seem to know what we mean by that. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
I understand how someone could take offense to the term "WoW clone", but having such an issue admitting that you enjoy "theme park" style games seems odd to me. What's so bad about theme parks? They are fun, entertaining, and have lots of rides. It's the perfect way to describe that type of mmo.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Well... first of all.. there is no such thing as a theme park game... that is an incorrect term that is not used in the game industry by trained professionals.. there are many loose terms thrown around, but what your looking for is the term "Linear"... the post should be titled Linear gameplay vs sandbox gameplay.... and you need to understand all of the elements that go into an MMO like world of warcraft, or any other game out there right now like Age of Conan, Rift, Everquest 2, so on and so fourth. You need to understand what a hybrid build actually looks like and play through a game that is considered a hybrid of both Linear and Sandbox. before jumping to any conclusions about how a game is structured and what makes it good vs its peers.... I'll be writting up an essay here shortly on proper game design terms and understanding how things work from a game designers perspective :P
Yeah, well, we call it "theme park". And you seem to know what we mean by that. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
Come to think of it, you don't know what we mean by "themepark". Because it carries with it the idea that you are leveling through the game world, zone to zone, in the order requires of you to advance in the game.
You can have "linear" in any game, even a Sandbox game. You can have quests for knowledge, no levels involved, and have them "linear". But that is not the same thing as "themepark".
Maybe you developers need to add another defined term, eh? And this time include what we mean by it.
Well... first of all.. there is no such thing as a theme park game... that is an incorrect term that is not used in the game industry by trained professionals.. there are many loose terms thrown around, but what your looking for is the term "Linear"... the post should be titled Linear gameplay vs sandbox gameplay.... and you need to understand all of the elements that go into an MMO like world of warcraft, or any other game out there right now like Age of Conan, Rift, Everquest 2, so on and so fourth. You need to understand what a hybrid build actually looks like and play through a game that is considered a hybrid of both Linear and Sandbox. before jumping to any conclusions about how a game is structured and what makes it good vs its peers.... I'll be writting up an essay here shortly on proper game design terms and understanding how things work from a game designers perspective :P
Yeah, well, we call it "theme park". And you seem to know what we mean by that. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
I understand how someone could take offense to the term "WoW clone", but having such an issue admitting that you enjoy "theme park" style games seems odd to me. What's so bad about theme parks? They are fun, entertaining, and have lots of rides. It's the perfect way to describe that type of mmo.
I agree. And for anyone who likes that, that's fine and dandy.
The problem is that there are developers and a few others who go out of their way trying very hard to confuse that whenever those of us who want something different say so.
Part of that is a defensive stance, I understand that. But part of it is head games to actually keep people from understanding what it is they don't like, or no longer like, about the games that they make. And if they want to play that game, playing on the inability of newer gamers to express what they don't want so as to continue to give them the things they don't really want, that's where some of us "veteran gamers" are going to jump in. We'll put the words to it, the words they don't want defined, even if they want to ignore them.
Well... first of all.. there is no such thing as a theme park game... that is an incorrect term that is not used in the game industry by trained professionals.. there are many loose terms thrown around, but what your looking for is the term "Linear"... the post should be titled Linear gameplay vs sandbox gameplay.... and you need to understand all of the elements that go into an MMO like world of warcraft, or any other game out there right now like Age of Conan, Rift, Everquest 2, so on and so fourth. You need to understand what a hybrid build actually looks like and play through a game that is considered a hybrid of both Linear and Sandbox. before jumping to any conclusions about how a game is structured and what makes it good vs its peers.... I'll be writting up an essay here shortly on proper game design terms and understanding how things work from a game designers perspective :P
Yeah, well, we call it "theme park". And you seem to know what we mean by that. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
Come to think of it, you don't know what we mean by "themepark". Because it carries with it the idea that you are leveling through the game world, zone to zone, in the order requires of you to advance in the game.
You can have "linear" in any game, even a Sandbox game. You can have quests for knowledge, no levels involved, and have them "linear". But that is not the same thing as "themepark".
Maybe you developers need to add another defined term, eh? And this time include what we mean by it.
The irony is decisions such as sandbox versus theme park are made by executive producers and large stake holders.
Well... first of all.. there is no such thing as a theme park game... that is an incorrect term that is not used in the game industry by trained professionals.. there are many loose terms thrown around, but what your looking for is the term "Linear"... the post should be titled Linear gameplay vs sandbox gameplay.... and you need to understand all of the elements that go into an MMO like world of warcraft, or any other game out there right now like Age of Conan, Rift, Everquest 2, so on and so fourth. You need to understand what a hybrid build actually looks like and play through a game that is considered a hybrid of both Linear and Sandbox. before jumping to any conclusions about how a game is structured and what makes it good vs its peers.... I'll be writting up an essay here shortly on proper game design terms and understanding how things work from a game designers perspective :P
Yeah, well, we call it "theme park". And you seem to know what we mean by that. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
Come to think of it, you don't know what we mean by "themepark". Because it carries with it the idea that you are leveling through the game world, zone to zone, in the order requires of you to advance in the game.
You can have "linear" in any game, even a Sandbox game. You can have quests for knowledge, no levels involved, and have them "linear". But that is not the same thing as "themepark".
Maybe you developers need to add another defined term, eh? And this time include what we mean by it.
The irony is decisions such as sandbox versus theme park are made by executive producers and large stake holders.
I understand that. But I also see developers saying that nobody wants "Sandbox", and that the only way to make these MMORPGs is the "Themepark". Not that any of it matters, really. The days of masses buying those Themeparks are over. It's been done and found lacking. But they won't admit it, and instead argue what terms mean instead of understanding what players mean by them and advancing the genre with things we want.
What is this nonsense that GTA and RDR are quasi-sandbox? What a load of baloney! The correct catch-phrase is: open world. Seriously, these sandboxers need to stop juxtaposing basic mmorpg mechanics such as an open world with the success of certain single player rpgs as if themepark mmos do not offer this feature. While at the same time overlooking character development, gameplay balance, controls, story, graphics and several other features that warrent those single player rpgs their success.
Let's stop kidding around here. As often as some people around here bash themepark mmos for "devolving" into online single player rpgs, now we are to believe that sandbox mmos have more in common? Poppycock I say!
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
And that is why you will never be an investor. Sandbox is niche whichever way you look at it.
and thats Why i have a niche Rolex (MMORPG) and you have a replica (wow)
replicas do sell much ,much more than original ones,but it doesnt mean that they are like originals,they may look like ones ,seller might told you that it is,but someday you will figure it out.
Yes. You have an overpriced piece of "jewelry" that tells time just as well as my cellphone
Warhammer is down to 2 US servers? Pretty close to Darkfall if I'm not mistaken
How much money you think was invested into AOC, as compared to say EvE?
Look, i'm not saying that Sandboxes are going to overtake Themeparks, but to say a sandbox with some good backing cant be a success is pretty naive imo.
That depend on how you define success. Able to make a profit? Able to compete with themeparks?. What's the ball park figure for success you think this genre can have.
EvE is as much of a success because it's a space MMO as it is because it's a sandbox btw. It really doesn't have any competition to really gauge based on it being a space MMO alone.
I could also say that WoW is as much of a success because its accessible and high quality as it is because its a theme-park. Wonderful! I am glad that we have finally decoupled game style from their success potential.
As far as I'm aware, there are considerable more fantasy based MMORPGS than there are Space MMORPGS so no, what you say make zero sense in the same context. That should be fairly obvious.
If you want a good space MMORPG the choices are very slim, which is where EvE wins out. The fact it's a sandbox is secondary. Do you think EvE would lose a lot of subscribers if a good fantasy sandbox ever came out? No it wouldn't for obvious reasons.
Warhammer is down to 2 US servers? Pretty close to Darkfall if I'm not mistaken
How much money you think was invested into AOC, as compared to say EvE?
Look, i'm not saying that Sandboxes are going to overtake Themeparks, but to say a sandbox with some good backing cant be a success is pretty naive imo.
That depend on how you define success. Able to make a profit? Able to compete with themeparks?. What's the ball park figure for success you think this genre can have.
EvE is as much of a success because it's a space MMO as it is because it's a sandbox btw. It really doesn't have any competition to really gauge based on it being a space MMO alone.
I could also say that WoW is as much of a success because its accessible and high quality as it is because its a theme-park. Wonderful! I am glad that we have finally decoupled game style from their success potential.
As far as I'm aware, there are considerable more fantasy based MMORPGS than there are Space MMORPGS so no, what you say make zero sense in the same context. That should be fairly obvious.
If you want a good space MMORPG the choices are very slim, which is where EvE wins out. The fact it's a sandbox is secondary. Do you think EvE would lose a lot of subscribers if a good fantasy sandbox ever came out? No it wouldn't for obvious reasons.
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with anymore. Okay so people play EVE because its sci-fi and don't care whether its a sandbox or themepark. The same logic applies to WoW. People play WoW because its high quality, accessible, and is visually attractive. They don't care whether its a sandbox or a themepark.
I'll even fill in the blanks and use your own words...
If you want a good high quality, accessible, and visually attractive MMORPG the choices are very slim, which is where WoW wins out. The fact it's a theme-park is secondary. Do you think WoW would lose a lot of subscribers if a low quality, inaccessible, ugly theme-park ever came out? No it wouldn't for obvious reasons.
Again, I think its wonderful that we have decidedly decoupled game style from their success potential.
I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. Part of what makes WoW such a big success is how accessible it is.
The problem is, many of the sandbox fans... and many of the examples of sandboxes... do anything BUT promote being accessible. They tend to be relatively obtuse. Any 8 year old can plop down in front of WoW and get going, never ask anybody any questions, and play fairly easily.
Try doing that with Xsyon, UO or EVE.
If sandboxes want to reach a broader market, they're going to have to admit they have to reach down, not up.
I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. Part of what makes WoW such a big success is how accessible it is.
The problem is, many of the sandbox fans... and many of the examples of sandboxes... do anything BUT promote being accessible. They tend to be relatively obtuse. Any 8 year old can plop down in front of WoW and get going, never ask anybody any questions, and play fairly easily.
Try doing that with Xsyon, UO or EVE.
If sandboxes want to reach a broader market, they're going to have to admit they have to reach down, not up.
There's two levels of accessibility:
UI, controls, etc. How players control the game and are presented with information. This is something that can maek or break a game, and it is also something that for any game, should be developed to make the controls and visual presentation of information as fluid as possible.
Secondly, there's game mechanics. This is not so flexible, and this is the main disconnect between Themeparks and Sandbox MMOs. Themepark game mechanics are, quite literally, dumbed down, specifically to make the game more accessible. That's why with WoW you have five year olds able to play the game, because it's designed to be just that easy to get into. A large part of this simplicity comes from restricting choice, and holding player's hands throughout gameplay.
Sandbox MMOs are meant to be the opposite of this. They aren't meant to be complex for the sake of being complex. They're more complex in that they add game mechanics that require understanding of more complex ideas. Per example Eve's economy is vastly more complex to WoW's Auction House economy. For players who like a more complex economy, Eve's is vastly superior, but for the lowest common denominator of gamer, it's "annoying" because they simply don't understand or appreciate it's true nature.
So really, making snadbox MMOs more accessible, is to in fact turn them into themepark MMOs... which is exactly what a lot of sandbox MMO gamers do not want. Sandbox gamers want freedom, they want choice, they want compelxity. Sadly, most gamers just can't handle that.
Sandbox MMOs are meant to be the opposite of this. They aren't meant to be complex for the sake of being complex. They're more complex in that they add game mechanics that require understanding of more complex ideas. Per example Eve's economy is vastly more complex to WoW's Auction House economy. For players who like a more complex economy, Eve's is vastly superior, but for the lowest common denominator of gamer, it's "annoying" because they simply don't understand or appreciate it's true nature.
So really, making snadbox MMOs more accessible, is to in fact turn them into themepark MMOs... which is exactly what a lot of sandbox MMO gamers do not want. Sandbox gamers want freedom, they want choice, they want compelxity. Sadly, most gamers just can't handle that.
It's perfectly possible to have a sandbox that kids play in. They do it in the real world all the time, just for starters.
More seriously, on the topic of MMOs... having a lot of game systems does not have to equal being difficult to play from the beginning.
My (2 year old) daughter plays the Sims 3, and I've known young children to play games like Little Big Planet.
It's possible to have fun, and content, and an easy curve to get into, and still have an incredible amount of depth at the same time.
Sure, it'd be harder than just doing a game like EVE, and harder than doing a themepark, but if making money was easy, everybody would do it.
Children aren't stupid, they're just children. They can be creative and find wide open, directionless things to be interesting (They do that in the real world, all the time. Watch kids playing in a sandbox or with dolls.). Being complicated doesn't mean you have to look like a bunch of accountants throwing a Star Trek themed party.
Warhammer is down to 2 US servers? Pretty close to Darkfall if I'm not mistaken
How much money you think was invested into AOC, as compared to say EvE?
Look, i'm not saying that Sandboxes are going to overtake Themeparks, but to say a sandbox with some good backing cant be a success is pretty naive imo.
That depend on how you define success. Able to make a profit? Able to compete with themeparks?. What's the ball park figure for success you think this genre can have.
EvE is as much of a success because it's a space MMO as it is because it's a sandbox btw. It really doesn't have any competition to really gauge based on it being a space MMO alone.
I could also say that WoW is as much of a success because its accessible and high quality as it is because its a theme-park. Wonderful! I am glad that we have finally decoupled game style from their success potential.
As far as I'm aware, there are considerable more fantasy based MMORPGS than there are Space MMORPGS so no, what you say make zero sense in the same context. That should be fairly obvious.
If you want a good space MMORPG the choices are very slim, which is where EvE wins out. The fact it's a sandbox is secondary. Do you think EvE would lose a lot of subscribers if a good fantasy sandbox ever came out? No it wouldn't for obvious reasons.
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with anymore. Okay so people play EVE because its sci-fi and don't care whether its a sandbox or themepark. The same logic applies to WoW. People play WoW because its high quality, accessible, and is visually attractive. They don't care whether its a sandbox or a themepark.
I'll even fill in the blanks and use your own words...
If you want a good high quality, accessible, and visually attractive MMORPG the choices are very slim, which is where WoW wins out. The fact it's a theme-park is secondary. Do you think WoW would lose a lot of subscribers if a low quality, inaccessible, ugly theme-park ever came out? No it wouldn't for obvious reasons.
Again, I think its wonderful that we have decidedly decoupled game style from their success potential.
We only partly agree. However there is a small but important "but". This is about EvE and not sandbox games in general.
I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. Part of what makes WoW such a big success is how accessible it is.
The problem is, many of the sandbox fans... and many of the examples of sandboxes... do anything BUT promote being accessible. They tend to be relatively obtuse. Any 8 year old can plop down in front of WoW and get going, never ask anybody any questions, and play fairly easily.
Try doing that with Xsyon, UO or EVE.
If sandboxes want to reach a broader market, they're going to have to admit they have to reach down, not up.
There's two levels of accessibility:
UI, controls, etc. How players control the game and are presented with information. This is something that can maek or break a game, and it is also something that for any game, should be developed to make the controls and visual presentation of information as fluid as possible.
Secondly, there's game mechanics. This is not so flexible, and this is the main disconnect between Themeparks and Sandbox MMOs. Themepark game mechanics are, quite literally, dumbed down, specifically to make the game more accessible. That's why with WoW you have five year olds able to play the game, because it's designed to be just that easy to get into. A large part of this simplicity comes from restricting choice, and holding player's hands throughout gameplay.
Sandbox MMOs are meant to be the opposite of this. They aren't meant to be complex for the sake of being complex. They're more complex in that they add game mechanics that require understanding of more complex ideas. Per example Eve's economy is vastly more complex to WoW's Auction House economy. For players who like a more complex economy, Eve's is vastly superior, but for the lowest common denominator of gamer, it's "annoying" because they simply don't understand or appreciate it's true nature.
So really, making snadbox MMOs more accessible, is to in fact turn them into themepark MMOs... which is exactly what a lot of sandbox MMO gamers do not want. Sandbox gamers want freedom, they want choice, they want compelxity. Sadly, most gamers just can't handle that.
This seems really well thought out but I'm not sure I agree. I say that only because games like Minecraft and Magicka have shown that you can hide complex mechanics and interactions behind a simple and intuitive interface. As long as the core gameplay does not rely on having mastered the complex mechanics it can keep the accessibility and grow with the player's skill level.
As an example, an 8 year old can play Minecraft well enouch to build structures, fight mosters, and do some basic crafting while being completely ignorant of the fact that they could also create a fully functioning 16-bit math coprocessor with logic gates using the same interface.
In this case, the old saying of "easy to learn, hard to master" is the counter-point that I am looking for.
This seems really well thought out but I'm not sure I agree. I say that only because games like Minecraft and Magicka have shown that you can hide complex mechanics and interactions behind a simple and intuitive interface. As long as the core gameplay does not rely on having mastered the complex mechanics it can keep the accessibility and grow with the player's skill level.
As an example, an 8 year old can play Minecraft well enouch to build structures, fight mosters, and do some basic crafting while being completely ignorant of the fact that they could also create a fully functioning 16-bit math coprocessor with logic gates using the same interface.
In this case, the old saying of "easy to learn, hard to master" is the counter-point that I am looking for.
Thank you for backing me up, I appreciate it. Minecraft is an INCREDIBLE example, because it embodies the spirit of sandbox so well, and yes, young kids can be great at it.
Games can be incredibly deep, yet still fun and intuitive on the front end. Very young children play games like Chess and Go, without any real problems, and those are much deeper than any MMO out on the market.
All the talk about FFA PvP with full loot drop (In another topic) goes along with my 'accessibility' theme. There are many mechanisms crammed into sandboxes or sandbox-likes that seem specifically designed to brutally punish anybody who isn't srs business.
Making a game a themepark is ONE way to make it friendlier, but it's not the only way.
Sandbox > themepark, after 10 years of gaming and wow clones, i'm surely looking for something alternative and innovative, i guess developers should risk more and forget about wow, and made more sandbox games.
Well... first of all.. there is no such thing as a theme park game... that is an incorrect term that is not used in the game industry by trained professionals.. there are many loose terms thrown around, but what your looking for is the term "Linear"... the post should be titled Linear gameplay vs sandbox gameplay.... and you need to understand all of the elements that go into an MMO like world of warcraft, or any other game out there right now like Age of Conan, Rift, Everquest 2, so on and so fourth. You need to understand what a hybrid build actually looks like and play through a game that is considered a hybrid of both Linear and Sandbox. before jumping to any conclusions about how a game is structured and what makes it good vs its peers.... I'll be writting up an essay here shortly on proper game design terms and understanding how things work from a game designers perspective :P
It will be a much needed essay.
Secondly, "themepark" implies a specific type of linear game. Not all linear games are spoonfed, or over exagerated (in your face) type of game. Uno, where you absolutely cannot mis the Public Quest stairing you in the face... along with everyone who has ever played, passes this point.
Open World vs Zoned, or Linear vs Sandbox. Each type, tells a truth about the game.
Looking forward to reading your essay.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Comments
Yeah, well, we call it "theme park". And you seem to know what we mean by that. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
Once upon a time....
I understand how someone could take offense to the term "WoW clone", but having such an issue admitting that you enjoy "theme park" style games seems odd to me. What's so bad about theme parks? They are fun, entertaining, and have lots of rides. It's the perfect way to describe that type of mmo.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Come to think of it, you don't know what we mean by "themepark". Because it carries with it the idea that you are leveling through the game world, zone to zone, in the order requires of you to advance in the game.
You can have "linear" in any game, even a Sandbox game. You can have quests for knowledge, no levels involved, and have them "linear". But that is not the same thing as "themepark".
Maybe you developers need to add another defined term, eh? And this time include what we mean by it.
Once upon a time....
Considering most "sandboxes" are just themepark sandboxes...
"Carrot on a stick"
Most MMOs
"Choose your own adventure within the confines of what the devs allow you to choose"
DF/MO/ER
"Sandbox"
Second Life
I agree. And for anyone who likes that, that's fine and dandy.
The problem is that there are developers and a few others who go out of their way trying very hard to confuse that whenever those of us who want something different say so.
Part of that is a defensive stance, I understand that. But part of it is head games to actually keep people from understanding what it is they don't like, or no longer like, about the games that they make. And if they want to play that game, playing on the inability of newer gamers to express what they don't want so as to continue to give them the things they don't really want, that's where some of us "veteran gamers" are going to jump in. We'll put the words to it, the words they don't want defined, even if they want to ignore them.
Once upon a time....
The irony is decisions such as sandbox versus theme park are made by executive producers and large stake holders.
I understand that. But I also see developers saying that nobody wants "Sandbox", and that the only way to make these MMORPGs is the "Themepark". Not that any of it matters, really. The days of masses buying those Themeparks are over. It's been done and found lacking. But they won't admit it, and instead argue what terms mean instead of understanding what players mean by them and advancing the genre with things we want.
Once upon a time....
Are you hating on 'us people' because we're black? Racist.
Free cookies at:
www.gankalicious.blogspot.com
Bring cookies.
What is this nonsense that GTA and RDR are quasi-sandbox? What a load of baloney! The correct catch-phrase is: open world. Seriously, these sandboxers need to stop juxtaposing basic mmorpg mechanics such as an open world with the success of certain single player rpgs as if themepark mmos do not offer this feature. While at the same time overlooking character development, gameplay balance, controls, story, graphics and several other features that warrent those single player rpgs their success.
Let's stop kidding around here. As often as some people around here bash themepark mmos for "devolving" into online single player rpgs, now we are to believe that sandbox mmos have more in common? Poppycock I say!
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Yes. You have an overpriced piece of "jewelry" that tells time just as well as my cellphone
As far as I'm aware, there are considerable more fantasy based MMORPGS than there are Space MMORPGS so no, what you say make zero sense in the same context. That should be fairly obvious.
If you want a good space MMORPG the choices are very slim, which is where EvE wins out. The fact it's a sandbox is secondary. Do you think EvE would lose a lot of subscribers if a good fantasy sandbox ever came out? No it wouldn't for obvious reasons.
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with anymore. Okay so people play EVE because its sci-fi and don't care whether its a sandbox or themepark. The same logic applies to WoW. People play WoW because its high quality, accessible, and is visually attractive. They don't care whether its a sandbox or a themepark.
I'll even fill in the blanks and use your own words...
If you want a good high quality, accessible, and visually attractive MMORPG the choices are very slim, which is where WoW wins out. The fact it's a theme-park is secondary. Do you think WoW would lose a lot of subscribers if a low quality, inaccessible, ugly theme-park ever came out? No it wouldn't for obvious reasons.
Again, I think its wonderful that we have decidedly decoupled game style from their success potential.
I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. Part of what makes WoW such a big success is how accessible it is.
The problem is, many of the sandbox fans... and many of the examples of sandboxes... do anything BUT promote being accessible. They tend to be relatively obtuse. Any 8 year old can plop down in front of WoW and get going, never ask anybody any questions, and play fairly easily.
Try doing that with Xsyon, UO or EVE.
If sandboxes want to reach a broader market, they're going to have to admit they have to reach down, not up.
There's two levels of accessibility:
UI, controls, etc. How players control the game and are presented with information. This is something that can maek or break a game, and it is also something that for any game, should be developed to make the controls and visual presentation of information as fluid as possible.
Secondly, there's game mechanics. This is not so flexible, and this is the main disconnect between Themeparks and Sandbox MMOs. Themepark game mechanics are, quite literally, dumbed down, specifically to make the game more accessible. That's why with WoW you have five year olds able to play the game, because it's designed to be just that easy to get into. A large part of this simplicity comes from restricting choice, and holding player's hands throughout gameplay.
Sandbox MMOs are meant to be the opposite of this. They aren't meant to be complex for the sake of being complex. They're more complex in that they add game mechanics that require understanding of more complex ideas. Per example Eve's economy is vastly more complex to WoW's Auction House economy. For players who like a more complex economy, Eve's is vastly superior, but for the lowest common denominator of gamer, it's "annoying" because they simply don't understand or appreciate it's true nature.
So really, making snadbox MMOs more accessible, is to in fact turn them into themepark MMOs... which is exactly what a lot of sandbox MMO gamers do not want. Sandbox gamers want freedom, they want choice, they want compelxity. Sadly, most gamers just can't handle that.
It's perfectly possible to have a sandbox that kids play in. They do it in the real world all the time, just for starters.
More seriously, on the topic of MMOs... having a lot of game systems does not have to equal being difficult to play from the beginning.
My (2 year old) daughter plays the Sims 3, and I've known young children to play games like Little Big Planet.
It's possible to have fun, and content, and an easy curve to get into, and still have an incredible amount of depth at the same time.
Sure, it'd be harder than just doing a game like EVE, and harder than doing a themepark, but if making money was easy, everybody would do it.
Children aren't stupid, they're just children. They can be creative and find wide open, directionless things to be interesting (They do that in the real world, all the time. Watch kids playing in a sandbox or with dolls.). Being complicated doesn't mean you have to look like a bunch of accountants throwing a Star Trek themed party.
We only partly agree. However there is a small but important "but". This is about EvE and not sandbox games in general.
Big world, rich content, fine gameplay.
F+ck the sandbox vs themepark Battleground.
This seems really well thought out but I'm not sure I agree. I say that only because games like Minecraft and Magicka have shown that you can hide complex mechanics and interactions behind a simple and intuitive interface. As long as the core gameplay does not rely on having mastered the complex mechanics it can keep the accessibility and grow with the player's skill level.
As an example, an 8 year old can play Minecraft well enouch to build structures, fight mosters, and do some basic crafting while being completely ignorant of the fact that they could also create a fully functioning 16-bit math coprocessor with logic gates using the same interface.
In this case, the old saying of "easy to learn, hard to master" is the counter-point that I am looking for.
Thank you for backing me up, I appreciate it. Minecraft is an INCREDIBLE example, because it embodies the spirit of sandbox so well, and yes, young kids can be great at it.
Games can be incredibly deep, yet still fun and intuitive on the front end. Very young children play games like Chess and Go, without any real problems, and those are much deeper than any MMO out on the market.
All the talk about FFA PvP with full loot drop (In another topic) goes along with my 'accessibility' theme. There are many mechanisms crammed into sandboxes or sandbox-likes that seem specifically designed to brutally punish anybody who isn't srs business.
Making a game a themepark is ONE way to make it friendlier, but it's not the only way.
Sandbox > themepark, after 10 years of gaming and wow clones, i'm surely looking for something alternative and innovative, i guess developers should risk more and forget about wow, and made more sandbox games.
It will be a much needed essay.
Secondly, "themepark" implies a specific type of linear game. Not all linear games are spoonfed, or over exagerated (in your face) type of game. Uno, where you absolutely cannot mis the Public Quest stairing you in the face... along with everyone who has ever played, passes this point.
Open World vs Zoned, or Linear vs Sandbox. Each type, tells a truth about the game.
Looking forward to reading your essay.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon