Well, all definitions are known to be not sufficient. I was definitely taking about PKers-skull-hunters, griefers, any MMO players that enjoy “to ruin somelses game”.
The cliché argument “It’s a game” does not work for me: you are playing not alone, there are other players (humans) with different game interests, preferences. Technically you can rob your neighbor, but you are not doing that because of your internal moral principals or just being scared to be punished by law. There is no police in the games, penalties are often minor or absent. Social matureness foresees an ability to reflect, predict the reaction of another person (“respect others as persons”), full responsibility for your actions.
Aggressiveness, intolerance are known to be signs of weakness: a really strong person has no need to demonstrate his strength in order to convince himself and others that he is strong, he is simply strong.
“Play another game.” I was mentioned that there were really few “clones” available now. It is not an easy task to find a suitable for your taste MMO (genre, graphic, UI, business scheme, etc.). So, “carebears” start to complain on PvP games’ forums.
Any rule has exceptions. So, I do not think that every PKer-griefer is a bad person in RL. But I do not understand/support this dualism of behavior modes: kind helpful person in reality and jerk in virtual world.
Moreover, I was mainly addressing this problem to kids and badly socially educated individuals (PhD degrees are not sufficient to become a human).
However, my main interest was game design. We are spending long hours playing MMOs creating, developing our characters-avatars. Maybe, they (our PCs) are also playing with us, creating us? IMO game developers, community in general should serously analyze what social impact that MMOs might have. I believe that this serous Forum is a right place.
But again, I don't understand what the issue is. If people know the rules/penalties why not play another game?
The same could be said of hardcore pvp'ers who go into a pve game and scream bloody murder that there isn't pvp.
What you are essentially saying (or at least this is what I'm getting) is that since there are so few games out there that people might want to play, players should come in and change them? That just doesn't makes sense.
I"m not going ot say that there are't people with issues who are getting their jollies making other people's lives miserable. I've met a few nasty people in these games only to find out later that they were miserable wretches in real life.
but I will once again state that if a game has penalties that one doesn't like then they should just move on. It shouldn't be an issue. There are players that like the "I ganked you and you will eventually gank me" type of game play. I say let them have their game.
I've always been about personal choice and also personal responsibility.
People need to take responsibility for their own gaming. Just like there are some blatant "sex games" online I would say that if that isn't your thing "don't play them".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Well, all definitions are known to be not sufficient. I was definitely taking about PKers-skull-hunters, griefers, any MMO players that enjoy “to ruin somelses game”.
The cliché argument “It’s a game” does not work for me: you are playing not alone, there are other players (humans) with different game interests, preferences. Technically you can rob your neighbor, but you are not doing that because of your internal moral principals or just being scared to be punished by law. There is no police in the games, penalties are often minor or absent. Social matureness foresees an ability to reflect, predict the reaction of another person (“respect others as persons”), full responsibility for your actions.
Aggressiveness, intolerance are known to be signs of weakness: a really strong person has no need to demonstrate his strength in order to convince himself and others that he is strong, he is simply strong.
“Play another game.” I was mentioned that there were really few “clones” available now. It is not an easy task to find a suitable for your taste MMO (genre, graphic, UI, business scheme, etc.). So, “carebears” start to complain on PvP games’ forums.
Any rule has exceptions. So, I do not think that every PKer-griefer is a bad person in RL. But I do not understand/support this dualism of behavior modes: kind helpful person in reality and jerk in virtual world.
Moreover, I was mainly addressing this problem to kids and badly socially educated individuals (PhD degrees are not sufficient to become a human).
However, my main interest was game design. We are spending long hours playing MMOs creating, developing our characters-avatars. Maybe, they (our PCs) are also playing with us, creating us? IMO game developers, community in general should serously analyze what social impact that MMOs might have. I believe that this serous Forum is a right place.
But again, I don't understand what the issue is. If people know the rules/penalties why not play another game?
The same could be said of hardcore pvp'ers who go into a pve game and scream bloody murder that there isn't pvp.
What you are essentially saying (or at least this is what I'm getting) is that since there are so few games out there that people might want to play, players should come in and change them? That just doesn't makes sense.
I"m not going ot say that there are't people with issues who are getting their jollies making other people's lives miserable. I've met a few nasty people in these games only to find out later that they were miserable wretches in real life.
but I will once again state that if a game has penalties that one doesn't like then they should just move on. It shouldn't be an issue. There are players that like the "I ganked you and you will eventually gank me" type of game play. I say let them have their game.
I've always been about personal choice and also personal responsibility.
People need to take responsibility for their own gaming. Just like there are some blatant "sex games" online I would say that if that isn't your thing "don't play them".
On the flipside of that however Im also seeing why ffa pvp games are a struggling niche. These "miserable wretches" are a minority in MMOs, if anything I think they should be choosing games that care more to their taste not the "carebears".
A "carebear" isnt going to ruin a gankers fun, however the opposite isnt true. So dont you think these "Hardcore" folks are the ones that should be penned away since in fact theyre the minority? Shouldnt they be the ones preying on each other instead of folks that arent as "hardcore" as they are?
Why let the minority force the majority to go elswhere? It should be the other way around in my opinion.
I think many people who do PK have some sort of RL issues. Even if they're taking virtual property or ending another's virtual life, the fact that they get some sort of real pleasure out of it and don't care about the victim shows they have some issues.
The fact is, they are preying on other people without any kind of empathy and it gives them pleasure. Twisted? You decide.
Also, I don't think how a person acts in real life is really any indication of how stable they are. There are serial killers that can appear to be the nicest person in the world.
OMG...
The game gives you abilities to use against your enemy. So if you use them , then all of a sudden that makes you the same as a serial killer?
Maybe there is something wrong with the people that are saying stuff like this?
PVP is a large part of most games, and the only reason some people even play them. It is like a sport for some. It is competitive in nature. It's like playing mortal kombat with your friend and then crying on the forums because you got killed.
Your reading comprehension isn't very good. I wasn't saying PKing makes you the same as a serial killer, I was saying taking pleasure at another's misfortune isn't a sign of a healthy individual.
The millenials have painted their existence on a cold, compassionless plastic canvas that we know as the internet.
I think theres a certain level of dehumanizing being experienced by todays youth. Action without consequence can be a dangerous thing. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out 20 to 30 years from now.
I expect this generation will be a case study revisited countless times in the future.
I would agrue its the "millenials" lack of decent leadership and role models from the previous generations abrogating their responsibilities.
Expect young people to be wise and you are probably a fool.
I blame the baby boomers myself. This started quite some time ago. This is the 2nd or even third cascade of the same phenomenon. If it feels good do it and nihilistic relativism. Be nice to everyone until they do something that gives you permission to hate. Then throw out everything you been holding back in pure visciousness.
Yes its been a long time in building. And now there are no floodgates from wiser older heads. Just older heads who think all the vicsousness is sometimes justified and then bemoan the fact by insulting others. Not by leading.
Hypocrisy erodes authority. Saying and not doing is an instinctive invalidator.
The milenials are smarter than people give them credit for. They have the cunning of all teenagers. The problem is the "adults" are rarely very adult anymore.
They goad older people as teenagers have dones since time immemorial. And they win. The "adults" rise to the immature behavior and respond with either with some of their own or simply by withdrawing from the field. In either case one loses. One fails to lead.
One fails to show a constructive alternative that works better. That is the method by which you lead younger people into being less foolish. You simply show them that until they come up something constructive they will be ignored because they are not important. And they cannot abide that.
On the main topic I say. Yes, there is a correlation and influence between how much one plays games, the play style of said games, the activities, and the resulting mental states.
Sane people won't go berserk or become bastards. Most antisocial people won't either. Only the ones with real issues are at risk.
Being evil in game can be done as a tension release, joy, and/or out of anger at something. The results of doing so is more or less the same as the real world analogue of 'blowing off steam'. A bit of it is good, but do it too much and you're only making the problem worse by dwelling on it. This runs the risk of the issues becoming more encompassing and influencing other activities in your life, and can make one more off-putting or irate to be around. Even at it's base, it may simply lend to a tendency contrary or remarks for the sake of conflict.
But does that mean they're not nice people? Not necessarily.
If one is antisocial or introverted like me, they will internalize much of such things in their daily lives. They would do that under the context of virtual anonymity because there's little interpersonal or human relation that needs to be had. They could even be like me in so far as when approached they're curt, but cordial.
However, the line tends to stop there. There's a reasonably well defied division between how people who adhere to a concept of 'respect' or maybe better defined as 'bushido' or 'chivalry' and those that don't. This line is visible enough in games, because even if the game lets a player do so, one with that idea of respect will more than likely not stoop to killing an opponent that has no chance. There's simply no honor to be had and there's no other boon typically to warrant it.
As for the game play elements.
Just like I remarked before in a different thread. Just because a game lets one do something, doesn't necessarily mean it's being condoned by he game.
They're PvP games. You're supposed to fight one another. You're supposed to wage war on opposing clans and generally strive for the 'top dog' position by beating your potential opposition into a pulp. There's certainly even games that condones the more scrupulous aspects, like killing people outside your threat level because they still drop valuable loot or like in EvE when you suicide bomb ships in high-sec.
And by all means, there should be games like that for people like that. But, by no means or extent does that imply all PvP has to be that lawless and have that much of disregard for dignity or repercussion.
That is easily provable by noting how in such games guilds would make blacklists and KoS lists. Even in 'lawless' open PvP games you at least used to see that people would enforce their own law. And to one degree or another that was something supported by the developers, because that was a healthy community doing their thing.
But communities change and what used to work now has different connotations. With that drift in community interaction the developers have had to respond.
Lineage 2 introduced their own countermeasures because the old community that policed itself went away.
DAoC never really regained it's PvP community (RvR seems to fluctuate).
Asheron's Call saw a shift as well, new items and tinker options being introduced to counteract the increased penchant of modern players to 'gank' more.
DarkFall seems to mostly embrace the modern gamer, with only minor policing done by the community. This also is part of what lends to it that 'harsh' and hostile aspects though.
EvE enforces the different 'sec' spaces, but like mentioned, it doesn't shun the cunning getting around them.
The problem being argued isn't with PvP itself though. The topic in the first place had to do with the people, not the games.
And to that end, this seems very much like that other 'getting ganked' thread. Where some use it as a soapbox to tell people who desire a more respectable player base to 'go play a different game' when that really isn't the problem.
It is taking responsibility for their gaming. It's taking responsibility for their gaming community by not letting people who would see a game degrade into one where the only goal is to torture other players as opposed to the initial goals of the developers and game's design.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
One of my best friends, a big ol' teddy bear of a man with a gorgeous wife and 3 lovely daughters, the kind of guy you can call at -40 below zero in the middle of the night to help you get your car started, always the first guy to volunteer if you need to move, always the last to leave if your working and he's helping, is probably the most bloodthirsty pker I've ever met. Gawdz help you if your flagged in any zone where he is, lol. I will say, he's not a corpse camper, if you cant put up a fight he moves on.
Luv_bug, I am not a specialist in these social psychology problems. But those were my not-professional thoughts. I am 100% sure that I am not the only one who has such ideas/problems/puzzles. We are not scientists to provide a sophisticated analysis, but we are users, MMO players and out opinion/understanding has also as special value. MMO is our world.
Thank you for the interesting link.
There is a difference between a role playing as robber/murderer (game story line/concept) and a free choice to be a heads-collector red PKer in a fantasy MMORPG. What is “acceptable” in realm/faction vs. realm/faction MMOs (e.g. Aion) could be “immoral” in “common world” games.
Sovrath, I do not have any ambitions to declare my “statements” as a truth in the last instance. They are more like doubts that bother me (therefore I am posting them).
Indeed, there are no games with graphic quality, user-friendly interface, etc. like Aion (my hope is TERA, there will be PvE server).
BTW I think it is possible to be a hardcore PvPer on a PvE server (consensual duels and guild wars).
I am talking not about any game genre ("sex games") but exclusively about fantasy MMORPGs. I like some PvP-only FPSs: a real player is definitely a more challenging opponent than a scripted NPC.
there are certainly those gankers that are and there are certainly those who are not (asshats, that is). I think that in general there are some dangerous minds floating around there in the collective set of gankers, but i know at least a few who are spectacularly good hearted people in RL and who just completely separate the game from RL.
i think, also (and this is something i think the OP was trying to get at) , that there are some games that kind of organically attract mean hearted people and exploitative people, while there are other games that tend to attract helpful, group hug type players. thirdly, there are games that while they can attract their fair share of griefers andetc, they take the time to put rules in place to eliminate most of the griefing /ganking opportunities. Eve and POTBS both do this, potbs to a greater degree than eve, but to be fair people who play eve tend to know what they are getting into and know a lil more to beware of scammers, etc. I think both are better games for it (in fact both of those games are in my 3 or 4 all time favs). other games such as darkfall have nothing, or very little to control the asshattery, which is going to breed an asshat genesis to their game.
personally i could never grief someone and wouldnt gank someone unless i knew they were a griefer, in which case i admit i'll nail them so bad they quit the game (and ya, i have done just that in eve.)
just my 2cp and great interesting topic...
itch
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
On the flipside of that however Im also seeing why ffa pvp games are a struggling niche. These "miserable wretches" are a minority in MMOs, if anything I think they should be choosing games that care more to their taste not the "carebears".
A "carebear" isnt going to ruin a gankers fun, however the opposite isnt true. So dont you think these "Hardcore" folks are the ones that should be penned away since in fact theyre the minority? Shouldnt they be the ones preying on each other instead of folks that arent as "hardcore" as they are?
Why let the minority force the majority to go elswhere? It should be the other way around in my opinion.
Well look. I'm not going to say that there aren't people with huge issues that like nothing better to do than to pk somone and gloat or belittle that person. There are scummy people everywhere.
I've told the story before on these forums how, in Lineage 2, I was leveling in my pve robes when I was attacked from the back and before I could get a shot off (pve robes in L2 had slower casting times) I was killed. I basically said "gf" (good fight though it wasn't a fight) and that player (who shall remain nameless) runs off with a "sexay!"
Well, I go back a week or so later to find this guy because I see him on that island. I do see him and I charge straight for him. There was another player there who uses a blessed "instant" escape to get out of my way and I get right into his face and start firing.
What does he do? He runs. So I chase him because he's trying to use the environment to get away and I take him out in 3 hits.
What does he do? He starts swearing at me and insulting me and all sorts of things.
So it's more than obvious that there are people in these games who can dish it out but can't take it.
However, that goes back to my "know what game you are in and know that if you hate something about it then that something will happen".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
“Introvert” is not equivalent to “antisocial”. Moreover, some social structures cannot be even called like that (I am German and do remember my country’s past). But “blowing off steam” at the expenses of others: is that fair? Self-control is definitely a better option.
Probaly, “getting ganked'”has some relation to my motivations. Fortunately, I was not that dramatically ganked in any game I played so far. I accept that players are different, I wanted to understand the moral motivation of ganking/griefing/Pking and should MMO community (designers and players) react on this gaming phenomenon.
I enjoy pkilling. While after 20 years of gaming (mostly RPGs) I always appreciate the game, of course (or why bother playing it), there is something specific that draws me continuously back to the hunt of another player.
I'm not going to attempt to play morality games with you and justify what I do. You are mature enough to read this, and I'm sure you can draw your own conclusions. I'm simply going to give you a glimpse into that which you loathe, despise and yet, are oddly curious about. All I ask is that as you read with scorn and derision, you ask yourself why you persist in applying real-world morality to the gaming world ... are you so desperate in your beliefs that you cannot accept that part of the fantasy as well?
The number of assumptions you make about the OP in that paragraph is astounding. Did you actually READ his question and presentation of polar beliefs on the subject? He was asking a perfectly rational question, not championing a side.
I'm not evil by nature, certainly not in real-life. One thing you have to be careful of is disassociating the game world from the real. It's a game. Some play to roleplay, some play to be part of a community, I play to be feared. I enjoy those other aspects too, of course, but they pale in comparison to the thrill of the hunt. But if you find yourself upset in real life because you were pkilled, or displaying any other abnormal feelings or traits that give you pause while you pkill, step back, breathe deeply, and play some Tetris or something.
Does it bother your sense of reality that I'm just a normal, every-day guy, working behind a desk 50 a week and married? That I have short-cropped hair and wear collared shirts? That I have more suits than t-shirts? That I have degrees on my wall, and a group of normal friends? Ahh, you expected Charles Manson, perhaps. I wish I could help you, but I'm not wired "wrong," or anti-social, or sacrificing cats in the background to the light of red and black candles while chanting the 32nd Psalm backwards. In fact I'm listening to CNN right now, typing this, while my wife works out to the latest 'Tai Bo' tape in the living room. I'm not working out my agression on you, or emptying my "harbored angst at the world" into our shared fantasy. I simply "am." And you will deal with me, because the minute you entered this game you made your choice.
This paragraph makes you sound arrogant. Frankly, a lot of PK'ers (not PvP'ers) and gankers come across as arrogant, full of themselves, and only concerned with their own enjoyment of a game. You did nothing in this paragraph to persuade otherwise.
I read the rest of your counter "attack" to the perceived attack of the OP. I'm afraid all it did was solidify my own belief in the fact that PK'ers are indeed in life much as they are in game....narcissists. My opinion was not quite as strong in that regard before I read your post.
One of my best friends, a big ol' teddy bear of a man with a gorgeous wife and 3 lovely daughters, the kind of guy you can call at -40 below zero in the middle of the night to help you get your car started, always the first guy to volunteer if you need to move, always the last to leave if your working and he's helping, is probably the most bloodthirsty pker I've ever met. Gawdz help you if your flagged in any zone where he is, lol. I will say, he's not a corpse camper, if you cant put up a fight he moves on.
That last part tells me he's just a PvP lover, not a ganker or PK'er. A "bad person" isn't required, in my opinion, to simply enjoy PvP. Corpse camping is griefing. PK'ers, in my opinion, are the griefers. The ones who just repeatedly kill the same person because THEY are having fun. In my opinion they are narcissists. In their views nothing matters but their OWN fun. I often refer to them simply as "asshats." Your friend there just sounds like a guy who likes to PvP.
One of my best friends, a big ol' teddy bear of a man with a gorgeous wife and 3 lovely daughters, the kind of guy you can call at -40 below zero in the middle of the night to help you get your car started, always the first guy to volunteer if you need to move, always the last to leave if your working and he's helping, is probably the most bloodthirsty pker I've ever met. Gawdz help you if your flagged in any zone where he is, lol. I will say, he's not a corpse camper, if you cant put up a fight he moves on.
That last part tells me he's just a PvP lover, not a ganker or PK'er. A "bad person" isn't required, in my opinion, to simply enjoy PvP. Corpse camping is griefing. PK'ers, in my opinion, are the griefers. The ones who just repeatedly kill the same person because THEY are having fun. In my opinion they are narcissists. In their views nothing matters but their OWN fun. I often refer to them simply as "asshats." Your friend there just sounds like a guy who likes to PvP.
True, he is most certainly not a griefer, but he is in my opion a true pker as he tired of fighting npc mobs years ago and only really enjoys testing himself against human adversaries. He's also an older guy like myself and no longer has the twitch to get the most out of FPS's against the younger generation. Hehe, you should hear him whine like a little girl when he has to pve for drops he wants.
I think many people who do PK have some sort of RL issues. Even if they're taking virtual property or ending another's virtual life, the fact that they get some sort of real pleasure out of it and don't care about the victim shows they have some issues.
The fact is, they are preying on other people without any kind of empathy and it gives them pleasure. Twisted? You decide.
Also, I don't think how a person acts in real life is really any indication of how stable they are. There are serial killers that can appear to be the nicest person in the world.
OMG...
The game gives you abilities to use against your enemy. So if you use them , then all of a sudden that makes you the same as a serial killer?
Maybe there is something wrong with the people that are saying stuff like this?
PVP is a large part of most games, and the only reason some people even play them. It is like a sport for some. It is competitive in nature. It's like playing mortal kombat with your friend and then crying on the forums because you got killed.
Your reading comprehension isn't very good. I wasn't saying PKing makes you the same as a serial killer, I was saying taking pleasure at another's misfortune isn't a sign of a healthy individual.
The millenials have painted their existence on a cold, compassionless plastic canvas that we know as the internet.
I think theres a certain level of dehumanizing being experienced by todays youth. Action without consequence can be a dangerous thing. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out 20 to 30 years from now.
I expect this generation will be a case study revisited countless times in the future.
I would agrue its the "millenials" lack of decent leadership and role models from the previous generations abrogating their responsibilities.
<I agree on some level, however as a gen X'r I was a part of a movement that even at an early age we stood up and said, screw you mom and dad youre terrible parents, screw this greedy society, and corporate america, its not working and its not right. That was our counterculture. I dont see any sort of resentment from millenials when there should be. Wheres the rebellion, wheres the questioning of authority? Unfortunately its not there. You're right millenials are the victims of parents trying to give their children what they didnt have. And they over did it. So we have a placated generation that doesnt stand up for itself.>
Expect young people to be wise and you are probably a fool.
<I completely disagree here, Ive met kids who are victims of abuse and neglect who have an almost supernatural insight into what really is, who understand concepts that even the wisest baby boomer cant wrap their mind around>
I blame the baby boomers myself. This started quite some time ago. This is the 2nd or even third cascade of the same phenomenon. If it feels good do it and nihilistic relativism. Be nice to everyone until they do something that gives you permission to hate. Then throw out everything you been holding back in pure visciousness.
<It started before the baby boomers Im afraid, it goes as far back as man has existed, each generation shapes the next, it just so happens millenials got the shaft being born when they were and inheriting what they did.>
Yes its been a long time in building. And now there are no floodgates from wiser older heads. Just older heads who think all the vicsousness is sometimes justified and then bemoan the fact by insulting others. Not by leading.
<Theres something to be said about learning do something right by recognizing something wrong, in my experience you can learn just as much by lack of whats right by recognizing whats wrong>
Hypocrisy erodes authority. Saying and not doing is an instinctive invalidator.
<Agreed>
The milenials are smarter than people give them credit for. They have the cunning of all teenagers. The problem is the "adults" are rarely very adult anymore.
<I agree with as much information as millenials have access to that previous generations had no access to, its one of the boons of being a millenial. However knowing a lot vs practical application of said knowledge is a whole different story altogether. You're right it should be parents teaching their children to understand, however modern society is changing so fast its hard to know how to be a parent these days. Both sides deserve sympathy>
They goad older people as teenagers have dones since time immemorial. And they win. The "adults" rise to the immature behavior and respond with either with some of their own or simply by withdrawing from the field. In either case one loses. One fails to lead.
One fails to show a constructive alternative that works better. That is the method by which you lead younger people into being less foolish. You simply show them that until they come up something constructive they will be ignored because they are not important. And they cannot abide that.
<While it may sound hypocritical I dont and wont let my children play MMOs until theyre at an age where Im comfortable that they wont learn the wrong lessons from interactions therein. Its the same reason I dont let them drink at 10 years old, I dont want their development stunted.>
“Introvert” is not equivalent to “antisocial”. Moreover, some social structures cannot be even called like that (I am German and do remember my country’s past). But “blowing off steam” at the expenses of others: is that fair? Self-control is definitely a better option.
Probaly, “getting ganked'”has some relation to my motivations. Fortunately, I was not that dramatically ganked in any game I played so far. I accept that players are different, I wanted to understand the moral motivation of ganking/griefing/Pking and should MMO community (designers and players) react on this gaming phenomenon.
I stated introvert and antisocial not to relate the two as similar or the same, but as those are two habits that isolate an individual from the greater community as a whole and as I stated, ends the individuals to internalizing their issues more.
Apologies on not elaborating or at least differentiating those aspects more.
In general I don't consider it to be fair to 'blow off steam' by taking it out on something defenseless. It's the reason I harp rather frequently about the fact that I prefer to play games centered around 'giving me a challenge' and my resulting favoritism towards skill based games and non-linear progression.
While I don't consider PKing in itself to be bad, I do at least prefer it being 'fair'. Attacking people outside my level range in games is a no-no to me, and I shun people on my team and factions that do such things, lessening my inclination to assist them if repercussions come of their actions.
That's also a tie in to mine and somewhat Sovrath's occasional note on player community and the ability/necessity of players to regulate their own actions both personally and as a community.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I read that article about the tao of the hunt. Funny. "Don't whine." I don't think this griefer gets it but he is close to understanding why griefing isn't entirely wrong.
Whining is a survival response in pvp. As long as you can whine to the other player (chat is not disabled like in WoW), then you will always consider the option to whine if it proves beneficial to you. If I can get them to type even for a second "wow go play on a pve server then, you really don't belong on a pvp server if you are going to cry about getting corpse camped" then I can buy myself 1 or more seconds of time to get away from a corpse camp. It may or may not help me escape, but often times it does.
The fact of the matter is whining is the same thing as bragging. If you always have the upper hand and I always lose, then I'm going to act like a poor defenseless guy who only lost because you obviously cheated so I can run away and develop a new strategy because obviously this one isn't working. Never report someone to GMs over a pvp encounter such as this because that is wrong. So is cursing and harassing the other players. i.e. don't lose your cool
Whining and acting like a tough guy is nowhere near hard to do. You simply just say something along the lines of "I am better than you." or "If you would duel me I would win." or "If I had the same gear as you I would win." This is called fishing for a reaction. Also called trolling, but this is trolling for your own survival. If they respond with "lol noob!!!" you have successfully fished a response. But it won't work unless you manage to develop a new strategy that involves either your survival or the taking of theirs.
People say no one likes a griefer but the truth of the matter is there are levels of griefing just like there are levels of practical jokes. Jokes can go too far and make people mad. Some jokes are harmless but people get mad anyways. People just have to develop a sense of humor and know the difference between what is a destructive behavior of griefing, what is actually really funny, what is someone who is just trying to stop getting ganked.
Oh, and you might be wondering why would anyone try to sound like a tough guy? To kill them again of course. It works in reverse too.
Levels of Griefing
Low----------Medium----------You've gone too far or you've lost your cool
When someone loses their cool in a game, then the mature thing to do is to stop messing with them, put them on ignore, apologize, and just go your own way. Some people are not mature yet enough to handle confrontations.
You need distinguish between two types of players one that continue to kill people that have no chance of defending themselves over and over and over and making fun of them and generally I think just abusing the concept of what PvP is about. The other kills you but does not camp you for a long time and goes off after . The first person has some problems in real life I am convinced of that otherwise that amount of hate and anger does not manifest itself from out of nowhere.
I enjoy pkilling. While after 20 years of gaming (mostly RPGs) I always appreciate the game, of course (or why bother playing it), there is something specific that draws me continuously back to the hunt of another player.
I'm not going to attempt to play morality games with you and justify what I do. You are mature enough to read this, and I'm sure you can draw your own conclusions. I'm simply going to give you a glimpse into that which you loathe, despise and yet, are oddly curious about. All I ask is that as you read with scorn and derision, you ask yourself why you persist in applying real-world morality to the gaming world ... are you so desperate in your beliefs that you cannot accept that part of the fantasy as well?
The number of assumptions you make about the OP in that paragraph is astounding. Did you actually READ his question and presentation of polar beliefs on the subject? He was asking a perfectly rational question, not championing a side.
I'm not evil by nature, certainly not in real-life. One thing you have to be careful of is disassociating the game world from the real. It's a game. Some play to roleplay, some play to be part of a community, I play to be feared. I enjoy those other aspects too, of course, but they pale in comparison to the thrill of the hunt. But if you find yourself upset in real life because you were pkilled, or displaying any other abnormal feelings or traits that give you pause while you pkill, step back, breathe deeply, and play some Tetris or something.
Does it bother your sense of reality that I'm just a normal, every-day guy, working behind a desk 50 a week and married? That I have short-cropped hair and wear collared shirts? That I have more suits than t-shirts? That I have degrees on my wall, and a group of normal friends? Ahh, you expected Charles Manson, perhaps. I wish I could help you, but I'm not wired "wrong," or anti-social, or sacrificing cats in the background to the light of red and black candles while chanting the 32nd Psalm backwards. In fact I'm listening to CNN right now, typing this, while my wife works out to the latest 'Tai Bo' tape in the living room. I'm not working out my agression on you, or emptying my "harbored angst at the world" into our shared fantasy. I simply "am." And you will deal with me, because the minute you entered this game you made your choice.
This paragraph makes you sound arrogant. Frankly, a lot of PK'ers (not PvP'ers) and gankers come across as arrogant, full of themselves, and only concerned with their own enjoyment of a game. You did nothing in this paragraph to persuade otherwise.
I read the rest of your counter "attack" to the perceived attack of the OP. I'm afraid all it did was solidify my own belief in the fact that PK'ers are indeed in life much as they are in game....narcissists. My opinion was not quite as strong in that regard before I read your post.
J1O, that was a quote of an article written by a player on Arctic MUD about 20 years ago. It was not an "attack" but instead a rather reasonable reply. The OP asked if the PK can be a nice person in real life. Stay's reply was an article that showed things from the PvPer's side. In many cases, the PvPer is playing by the rules of the game and is able to separate real life from the game. When you read some of the posts here, the rage, venom and malice directed at the PvPers seems to indicate that the problem may be two-fold on the side of the 'victims' -
1) less ability to separate real life from the game
2) either an inability to accept the actual rules of the game they are playing, or an illogical and baseless belief that players playing by rules that they dislike are somehow morally or ethically flawed because they are not playing by that palyer's personal ruleset.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I read that article about the tao of the hunt. Funny. "Don't whine." I don't think this griefer gets it but he is close to understanding why griefing isn't entirely wrong.
Whining is a survival response in pvp. As long as you can whine to the other player (chat is not disabled like in WoW), then you will always consider the option to whine if it proves beneficial to you. If I can get them to type even for a second "wow go play on a pve server then, you really don't belong on a pvp server if you are going to cry about getting corpse camped" then I can buy myself 1 or more seconds of time to get away from a corpse camp. It may or may not help me escape, but often times it does.
The fact of the matter is whining is the same thing as bragging. If you always have the upper hand and I always lose, then I'm going to act like a poor defenseless guy who only lost because you obviously cheated so I can run away and develop a new strategy because obviously this one isn't working. Never report someone to GMs over a pvp encounter such as this because that is wrong. So is cursing and harassing the other players. i.e. don't lose your cool
Whining and acting like a tough guy is nowhere near hard to do. You simply just say something along the lines of "I am better than you." or "If you would duel me I would win." or "If I had the same gear as you I would win." This is called fishing for a reaction. Also called trolling, but this is trolling for your own survival. If they respond with "lol noob!!!" you have successfully fished a response. But it won't work unless you manage to develop a new strategy that involves either your survival or the taking of theirs.
People say no one likes a griefer but the truth of the matter is there are levels of griefing just like there are levels of practical jokes. Jokes can go too far and make people mad. Some jokes are harmless but people get mad anyways. People just have to develop a sense of humor and know the difference between what is a destructive behavior of griefing, what is actually really funny, what is someone who is just trying to stop getting ganked.
Oh, and you might be wondering why would anyone try to sound like a tough guy? To kill them again of course.
Levels of Griefing
Low----------Medium----------You've gone too far or you've lost your cool
Occasionally I find a post that I want to really digest. I print it out, grab some JD or Capt Morgan and go sit out on the patio and dig really deep into it, consuming each sentence as if it was a morsel of steak straight from the kitchen of Peter Luger's.
This was one of those posts, Plasmic, and I thank you very much for that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well, I enjoy PKing very much in game, but I am a very respectful and professional person IRL. Maybe I'm just releasing pent up aggression from my day? I'm not sure, but what I do know is that these are just games.
Haha, this thread is so silly it's hilarious. Yes, OP, the people who gank you are evil. Read all the German Idealism you want, it isn't making your question any more intelligent. In fact, it's making you look even sillier than if you had just honestly asked, without trying to get all 'the bowels of human nature' on us. People are complex. That's all you have to deal with when that ganker hits your ass multiple times. He/she's not evil, he/she's not trying to fuck with your life, he/she's not getting personal unless you let it get so. He/she's (GASP) just some person LIKE YOU with enough free time and money to spend in an afternoon of playing videogames. They're not learning anything. They're deciding to gank you and it's not an ethical choice, but a question of power embedded in the gameplay mechanics through the levelling system. In the 'real world' it would be an ethical choice. In these games, it's just one more suggested use very much enticed by the (oh so capitalist) hierarchy: after all, your digital persona is the same as mine and the exactly same as the mobs you're killing. You'd think the sun of Reason would've reached this side of the world by now like your guy said, but it seems like it's stuck somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic.
As for the dude blaming it on the generational divide, please man, get real. Your "back in the day" antics are as silly as the OP's question. Yeah man, back in the day, before the damn baby boomers, everything was better and the people were all cute and kind. You know, like in 1939 or 1914. Or say, like in, oh, most of the nineteenth century. And the eighteenth. Mmm, and, well, the seventeenth. You know what? Maybe since the bloody paleolithic when a stupid super ape decided to club another to death with a fallen tree branch. Yeah, such good times.
As far as I'm concerned, the menality of PKers is the same as those jerks who cut you off in traffic, cut in line, bitch at the manager till they get their way, have full conversations on the cell phone when with company, lie on their tax returns, be nice to your face then stab in you the back, embellish stories to make themselves look better.....etc. People may role play online, but their underlying morals are usually the same in game and out.
I enjoy pkilling. While after 20 years of gaming (mostly RPGs) I always appreciate the game, of course (or why bother playing it), there is something specific that draws me continuously back to the hunt of another player.
I'm not going to attempt to play morality games with you and justify what I do. You are mature enough to read this, and I'm sure you can draw your own conclusions. I'm simply going to give you a glimpse into that which you loathe, despise and yet, are oddly curious about. All I ask is that as you read with scorn and derision, you ask yourself why you persist in applying real-world morality to the gaming world ... are you so desperate in your beliefs that you cannot accept that part of the fantasy as well?
The number of assumptions you make about the OP in that paragraph is astounding. Did you actually READ his question and presentation of polar beliefs on the subject? He was asking a perfectly rational question, not championing a side.
I'm not evil by nature, certainly not in real-life. One thing you have to be careful of is disassociating the game world from the real. It's a game. Some play to roleplay, some play to be part of a community, I play to be feared. I enjoy those other aspects too, of course, but they pale in comparison to the thrill of the hunt. But if you find yourself upset in real life because you were pkilled, or displaying any other abnormal feelings or traits that give you pause while you pkill, step back, breathe deeply, and play some Tetris or something.
Does it bother your sense of reality that I'm just a normal, every-day guy, working behind a desk 50 a week and married? That I have short-cropped hair and wear collared shirts? That I have more suits than t-shirts? That I have degrees on my wall, and a group of normal friends? Ahh, you expected Charles Manson, perhaps. I wish I could help you, but I'm not wired "wrong," or anti-social, or sacrificing cats in the background to the light of red and black candles while chanting the 32nd Psalm backwards. In fact I'm listening to CNN right now, typing this, while my wife works out to the latest 'Tai Bo' tape in the living room. I'm not working out my agression on you, or emptying my "harbored angst at the world" into our shared fantasy. I simply "am." And you will deal with me, because the minute you entered this game you made your choice.
This paragraph makes you sound arrogant. Frankly, a lot of PK'ers (not PvP'ers) and gankers come across as arrogant, full of themselves, and only concerned with their own enjoyment of a game. You did nothing in this paragraph to persuade otherwise.
I read the rest of your counter "attack" to the perceived attack of the OP. I'm afraid all it did was solidify my own belief in the fact that PK'ers are indeed in life much as they are in game....narcissists. My opinion was not quite as strong in that regard before I read your post.
J1O, that was a quote of an article written by a player on Arctic MUD about 20 years ago. It was not an "attack" but instead a rather reasonable reply. The OP asked if the PK can be a nice person in real life. Stay's reply was an article that showed things from the PvPer's side. In many cases, the PvPer is playing by the rules of the game and is able to separate real life from the game. When you read some of the posts here, the rage, venom and malice directed at the PvPers seems to indicate that the problem may be two-fold on the side of the 'victims' -
1) less ability to separate real life from the game
2) either an inability to accept the actual rules of the game they are playing, or an illogical and baseless belief that players playing by rules that they dislike are somehow morally or ethically flawed because they are not playing by that palyer's personal ruleset.
Iunno, with comments like 'you ask yourself why you persist in applying real-world morality to the gaming world' It seems more the PKer is choosing to disassociate morality with gaming than they are disassociating the real world with gaming.
This is further supported by their comment 'I play to be feared. I enjoy those other aspects too, of course, but they pale in comparison to the thrill of the hunt.' That right there is admitting to in their own words hunting other people. That's not dividing reality from games, that's pulling a legal version of those silly things where people of affluence would use slaves or willing/unwilling abductees to hunt like game.
The affluence remark also is an 'appeal to authority' coupled with a 'no true scotsman' plug. Stating their credentials and that they 'have a life' and aren't some basement dweller in order to disassociate themselves from both those they kill as well as generating a straw man to compare themselves against by creating a 'basement dweller' concept of a PKer even though that has little to nothing to do in whole about mindset.
The only really applicable line is where they say 'I'm not working out my agression on you, or emptying my "harbored angst at the world" into our shared fantasy. I simply "am."'.
In short, they are doing it because they enjoy it. Which like I said before is one of the many possible motivators. By many means, most gankers are more out there for the 'lulz' than they are for the stress relief. Is that somehow better than if they're acting on aggression? No.
Then are they doing it for the challenging fight? From their commentary, they're going for the 'thrill of the hunt'. So no.
They are looking for someone that will run and scream and squirm. Some one that will see their doom and try to escape. Of course that might be more fun than killing NPCs, AI isn't good at such things, too formulaic and boring once you figure it out.
At the same time, they aren't looking for the threat of competition either. They word it as being a hunter, not a combatant. And that saddens me.
It's like I always say. I play games for the challenge. I prefer to do PvP for the same reason as the 'hunter', but I also prefer to take on targets my own size. I like the unpredictability of entering a fight against some one equally prepared as me. It's all the more satisfaction when I walk away victorious.
And that cycles back to my respect comment as well. The person that wrote that started from the outset belittling those he writes to by hand waving 'morality' and asserting that they all are filled with scorn and delusion. Before he even establishes his own mind, he establishes a negative concept of his opponents. Pretty much the definition of dehumanizing right there.
The dude wants prey, he doesn't want a combatant. And that's the part I don't like.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
In case Being determines Consciousness, what sort of mentality can develop such individual?
“Education is the art of making man ethical.” (“Philosophy of Right”, Hegel).
What MMOs are teaching than?
In case Consciousness determines Being, what sort of a person/individual is a PKer?
“Be a person and respect others as persons.” (ibid)
Should MMO developers be more careful, and obligatory protect other players? Are PvP only MMORPGs with humanoid-PCs ethically justified?
I do not think that certain games could be directly related to RL criminal actions and I have nothing against controlled and artistic adult content in MMOs, but I am really puzzled with the growing numbers of rude anti-social MMO players (PKers, gankers, blockers, team-killers, etc.). I guess game developers should pay more attention to game design/content in this respect and consider what social impact their products might have.
Today I bought 4 books for my sister; 2 to give to my 1 year old nephew, 2 to help her help him with his homework when he gets older; I had a nice chat on the phone with my mum (who is genuinely the best mum in the world), cheered up the new girl at work (she is foreign and homesick, and has trouble with her english, I helped her write an email to the council and another to the DVLA so she could get her driving license sorted out), then on the way home I bought a Big issue and didn't ask the homeless guy for any change.
Looks like the work of pirates, and I hate's pirates in EVE.
But that said, I understand pirates, and like you said, you kill for a purpose, like any good predator and I understand your motivation. Same for folks who kill for money (mercanaries), to defend their territory or who kill clan enemies. (war targets)
What I don't understand are those who run around and kill defenseless targets with no risk or reward. (other than the sheer "pleasure" of griefing a random person?) Yeah, those folks I'm pretty sure are sociopaths in real life no matter what they say to the contrary.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It depends on the extent of their pking/ganking actions, hard to invision most of them as a kind person in real life, the word kind is just too much of a stretch.
They usually end up coming acrossed as the 'in the background' types who are quiet, never heard, or ever get things their way in real life and just go with the flow, so they use MMO's to counter balance that. People seem to use it as more of a psychological ego booster thing from my point of view, but then there are some that are just dicks in the first place lol.
Comments
But again, I don't understand what the issue is. If people know the rules/penalties why not play another game?
The same could be said of hardcore pvp'ers who go into a pve game and scream bloody murder that there isn't pvp.
What you are essentially saying (or at least this is what I'm getting) is that since there are so few games out there that people might want to play, players should come in and change them? That just doesn't makes sense.
I"m not going ot say that there are't people with issues who are getting their jollies making other people's lives miserable. I've met a few nasty people in these games only to find out later that they were miserable wretches in real life.
but I will once again state that if a game has penalties that one doesn't like then they should just move on. It shouldn't be an issue. There are players that like the "I ganked you and you will eventually gank me" type of game play. I say let them have their game.
I've always been about personal choice and also personal responsibility.
People need to take responsibility for their own gaming. Just like there are some blatant "sex games" online I would say that if that isn't your thing "don't play them".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
On the flipside of that however Im also seeing why ffa pvp games are a struggling niche. These "miserable wretches" are a minority in MMOs, if anything I think they should be choosing games that care more to their taste not the "carebears".
A "carebear" isnt going to ruin a gankers fun, however the opposite isnt true. So dont you think these "Hardcore" folks are the ones that should be penned away since in fact theyre the minority? Shouldnt they be the ones preying on each other instead of folks that arent as "hardcore" as they are?
Why let the minority force the majority to go elswhere? It should be the other way around in my opinion.
I would agrue its the "millenials" lack of decent leadership and role models from the previous generations abrogating their responsibilities.
Expect young people to be wise and you are probably a fool.
I blame the baby boomers myself. This started quite some time ago. This is the 2nd or even third cascade of the same phenomenon. If it feels good do it and nihilistic relativism. Be nice to everyone until they do something that gives you permission to hate. Then throw out everything you been holding back in pure visciousness.
Yes its been a long time in building. And now there are no floodgates from wiser older heads. Just older heads who think all the vicsousness is sometimes justified and then bemoan the fact by insulting others. Not by leading.
Hypocrisy erodes authority. Saying and not doing is an instinctive invalidator.
The milenials are smarter than people give them credit for. They have the cunning of all teenagers. The problem is the "adults" are rarely very adult anymore.
They goad older people as teenagers have dones since time immemorial. And they win. The "adults" rise to the immature behavior and respond with either with some of their own or simply by withdrawing from the field. In either case one loses. One fails to lead.
One fails to show a constructive alternative that works better. That is the method by which you lead younger people into being less foolish. You simply show them that until they come up something constructive they will be ignored because they are not important. And they cannot abide that.
On the main topic I say. Yes, there is a correlation and influence between how much one plays games, the play style of said games, the activities, and the resulting mental states.
Sane people won't go berserk or become bastards. Most antisocial people won't either. Only the ones with real issues are at risk.
Being evil in game can be done as a tension release, joy, and/or out of anger at something. The results of doing so is more or less the same as the real world analogue of 'blowing off steam'. A bit of it is good, but do it too much and you're only making the problem worse by dwelling on it. This runs the risk of the issues becoming more encompassing and influencing other activities in your life, and can make one more off-putting or irate to be around. Even at it's base, it may simply lend to a tendency contrary or remarks for the sake of conflict.
But does that mean they're not nice people? Not necessarily.
If one is antisocial or introverted like me, they will internalize much of such things in their daily lives. They would do that under the context of virtual anonymity because there's little interpersonal or human relation that needs to be had. They could even be like me in so far as when approached they're curt, but cordial.
However, the line tends to stop there. There's a reasonably well defied division between how people who adhere to a concept of 'respect' or maybe better defined as 'bushido' or 'chivalry' and those that don't. This line is visible enough in games, because even if the game lets a player do so, one with that idea of respect will more than likely not stoop to killing an opponent that has no chance. There's simply no honor to be had and there's no other boon typically to warrant it.
As for the game play elements.
Just like I remarked before in a different thread. Just because a game lets one do something, doesn't necessarily mean it's being condoned by he game.
They're PvP games. You're supposed to fight one another. You're supposed to wage war on opposing clans and generally strive for the 'top dog' position by beating your potential opposition into a pulp. There's certainly even games that condones the more scrupulous aspects, like killing people outside your threat level because they still drop valuable loot or like in EvE when you suicide bomb ships in high-sec.
And by all means, there should be games like that for people like that. But, by no means or extent does that imply all PvP has to be that lawless and have that much of disregard for dignity or repercussion.
That is easily provable by noting how in such games guilds would make blacklists and KoS lists. Even in 'lawless' open PvP games you at least used to see that people would enforce their own law. And to one degree or another that was something supported by the developers, because that was a healthy community doing their thing.
But communities change and what used to work now has different connotations. With that drift in community interaction the developers have had to respond.
Lineage 2 introduced their own countermeasures because the old community that policed itself went away.
DAoC never really regained it's PvP community (RvR seems to fluctuate).
Asheron's Call saw a shift as well, new items and tinker options being introduced to counteract the increased penchant of modern players to 'gank' more.
DarkFall seems to mostly embrace the modern gamer, with only minor policing done by the community. This also is part of what lends to it that 'harsh' and hostile aspects though.
EvE enforces the different 'sec' spaces, but like mentioned, it doesn't shun the cunning getting around them.
The problem being argued isn't with PvP itself though. The topic in the first place had to do with the people, not the games.
And to that end, this seems very much like that other 'getting ganked' thread. Where some use it as a soapbox to tell people who desire a more respectable player base to 'go play a different game' when that really isn't the problem.
It is taking responsibility for their gaming. It's taking responsibility for their gaming community by not letting people who would see a game degrade into one where the only goal is to torture other players as opposed to the initial goals of the developers and game's design.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
One of my best friends, a big ol' teddy bear of a man with a gorgeous wife and 3 lovely daughters, the kind of guy you can call at -40 below zero in the middle of the night to help you get your car started, always the first guy to volunteer if you need to move, always the last to leave if your working and he's helping, is probably the most bloodthirsty pker I've ever met. Gawdz help you if your flagged in any zone where he is, lol. I will say, he's not a corpse camper, if you cant put up a fight he moves on.
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
Luv_bug, I am not a specialist in these social psychology problems. But those were my not-professional thoughts. I am 100% sure that I am not the only one who has such ideas/problems/puzzles. We are not scientists to provide a sophisticated analysis, but we are users, MMO players and out opinion/understanding has also as special value. MMO is our world.
Thank you for the interesting link.
There is a difference between a role playing as robber/murderer (game story line/concept) and a free choice to be a heads-collector red PKer in a fantasy MMORPG. What is “acceptable” in realm/faction vs. realm/faction MMOs (e.g. Aion) could be “immoral” in “common world” games.
Sovrath, I do not have any ambitions to declare my “statements” as a truth in the last instance. They are more like doubts that bother me (therefore I am posting them).
Indeed, there are no games with graphic quality, user-friendly interface, etc. like Aion (my hope is TERA, there will be PvE server).
BTW I think it is possible to be a hardcore PvPer on a PvE server (consensual duels and guild wars).
I am talking not about any game genre ("sex games") but exclusively about fantasy MMORPGs. I like some PvP-only FPSs: a real player is definitely a more challenging opponent than a scripted NPC.
there are certainly those gankers that are and there are certainly those who are not (asshats, that is). I think that in general there are some dangerous minds floating around there in the collective set of gankers, but i know at least a few who are spectacularly good hearted people in RL and who just completely separate the game from RL.
i think, also (and this is something i think the OP was trying to get at) , that there are some games that kind of organically attract mean hearted people and exploitative people, while there are other games that tend to attract helpful, group hug type players. thirdly, there are games that while they can attract their fair share of griefers andetc, they take the time to put rules in place to eliminate most of the griefing /ganking opportunities. Eve and POTBS both do this, potbs to a greater degree than eve, but to be fair people who play eve tend to know what they are getting into and know a lil more to beware of scammers, etc. I think both are better games for it (in fact both of those games are in my 3 or 4 all time favs). other games such as darkfall have nothing, or very little to control the asshattery, which is going to breed an asshat genesis to their game.
personally i could never grief someone and wouldnt gank someone unless i knew they were a griefer, in which case i admit i'll nail them so bad they quit the game
(and ya, i have done just that in eve.)
just my 2cp and great interesting topic...
itch
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Well look. I'm not going to say that there aren't people with huge issues that like nothing better to do than to pk somone and gloat or belittle that person. There are scummy people everywhere.
I've told the story before on these forums how, in Lineage 2, I was leveling in my pve robes when I was attacked from the back and before I could get a shot off (pve robes in L2 had slower casting times) I was killed. I basically said "gf" (good fight though it wasn't a fight) and that player (who shall remain nameless) runs off with a "sexay!"
Well, I go back a week or so later to find this guy because I see him on that island. I do see him and I charge straight for him. There was another player there who uses a blessed "instant" escape to get out of my way and I get right into his face and start firing.
What does he do? He runs. So I chase him because he's trying to use the environment to get away and I take him out in 3 hits.
What does he do? He starts swearing at me and insulting me and all sorts of things.
So it's more than obvious that there are people in these games who can dish it out but can't take it.
However, that goes back to my "know what game you are in and know that if you hate something about it then that something will happen".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Deivos, great, I almost agree with you!
“Introvert” is not equivalent to “antisocial”. Moreover, some social structures cannot be even called like that (I am German and do remember my country’s past). But “blowing off steam” at the expenses of others: is that fair? Self-control is definitely a better option.
Probaly, “getting ganked'”has some relation to my motivations. Fortunately, I was not that dramatically ganked in any game I played so far. I accept that players are different, I wanted to understand the moral motivation of ganking/griefing/Pking and should MMO community (designers and players) react on this gaming phenomenon.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
That last part tells me he's just a PvP lover, not a ganker or PK'er. A "bad person" isn't required, in my opinion, to simply enjoy PvP. Corpse camping is griefing. PK'ers, in my opinion, are the griefers. The ones who just repeatedly kill the same person because THEY are having fun. In my opinion they are narcissists. In their views nothing matters but their OWN fun. I often refer to them simply as "asshats." Your friend there just sounds like a guy who likes to PvP.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
True, he is most certainly not a griefer, but he is in my opion a true pker as he tired of fighting npc mobs years ago and only really enjoys testing himself against human adversaries. He's also an older guy like myself and no longer has the twitch to get the most out of FPS's against the younger generation. Hehe, you should hear him whine like a little girl when he has to pve for drops he wants.
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
I stated introvert and antisocial not to relate the two as similar or the same, but as those are two habits that isolate an individual from the greater community as a whole and as I stated, ends the individuals to internalizing their issues more.
Apologies on not elaborating or at least differentiating those aspects more.
In general I don't consider it to be fair to 'blow off steam' by taking it out on something defenseless. It's the reason I harp rather frequently about the fact that I prefer to play games centered around 'giving me a challenge' and my resulting favoritism towards skill based games and non-linear progression.
While I don't consider PKing in itself to be bad, I do at least prefer it being 'fair'. Attacking people outside my level range in games is a no-no to me, and I shun people on my team and factions that do such things, lessening my inclination to assist them if repercussions come of their actions.
That's also a tie in to mine and somewhat Sovrath's occasional note on player community and the ability/necessity of players to regulate their own actions both personally and as a community.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I read that article about the tao of the hunt. Funny. "Don't whine." I don't think this griefer gets it but he is close to understanding why griefing isn't entirely wrong.
Whining is a survival response in pvp. As long as you can whine to the other player (chat is not disabled like in WoW), then you will always consider the option to whine if it proves beneficial to you. If I can get them to type even for a second "wow go play on a pve server then, you really don't belong on a pvp server if you are going to cry about getting corpse camped" then I can buy myself 1 or more seconds of time to get away from a corpse camp. It may or may not help me escape, but often times it does.
The fact of the matter is whining is the same thing as bragging. If you always have the upper hand and I always lose, then I'm going to act like a poor defenseless guy who only lost because you obviously cheated so I can run away and develop a new strategy because obviously this one isn't working. Never report someone to GMs over a pvp encounter such as this because that is wrong. So is cursing and harassing the other players. i.e. don't lose your cool
Whining and acting like a tough guy is nowhere near hard to do. You simply just say something along the lines of "I am better than you." or "If you would duel me I would win." or "If I had the same gear as you I would win." This is called fishing for a reaction. Also called trolling, but this is trolling for your own survival. If they respond with "lol noob!!!" you have successfully fished a response. But it won't work unless you manage to develop a new strategy that involves either your survival or the taking of theirs.
People say no one likes a griefer but the truth of the matter is there are levels of griefing just like there are levels of practical jokes. Jokes can go too far and make people mad. Some jokes are harmless but people get mad anyways. People just have to develop a sense of humor and know the difference between what is a destructive behavior of griefing, what is actually really funny, what is someone who is just trying to stop getting ganked.
Oh, and you might be wondering why would anyone try to sound like a tough guy? To kill them again of course. It works in reverse too.
Levels of Griefing
Low----------Medium----------You've gone too far or you've lost your cool
When someone loses their cool in a game, then the mature thing to do is to stop messing with them, put them on ignore, apologize, and just go your own way. Some people are not mature yet enough to handle confrontations.
You need distinguish between two types of players one that continue to kill people that have no chance of defending themselves over and over and over and making fun of them and generally I think just abusing the concept of what PvP is about. The other kills you but does not camp you for a long time and goes off after . The first person has some problems in real life I am convinced of that otherwise that amount of hate and anger does not manifest itself from out of nowhere.
J1O, that was a quote of an article written by a player on Arctic MUD about 20 years ago. It was not an "attack" but instead a rather reasonable reply. The OP asked if the PK can be a nice person in real life. Stay's reply was an article that showed things from the PvPer's side. In many cases, the PvPer is playing by the rules of the game and is able to separate real life from the game. When you read some of the posts here, the rage, venom and malice directed at the PvPers seems to indicate that the problem may be two-fold on the side of the 'victims' -
1) less ability to separate real life from the game
2) either an inability to accept the actual rules of the game they are playing, or an illogical and baseless belief that players playing by rules that they dislike are somehow morally or ethically flawed because they are not playing by that palyer's personal ruleset.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Occasionally I find a post that I want to really digest. I print it out, grab some JD or Capt Morgan and go sit out on the patio and dig really deep into it, consuming each sentence as if it was a morsel of steak straight from the kitchen of Peter Luger's.
This was one of those posts, Plasmic, and I thank you very much for that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well, I enjoy PKing very much in game, but I am a very respectful and professional person IRL. Maybe I'm just releasing pent up aggression from my day? I'm not sure, but what I do know is that these are just games.
Do you know for certain?
Haha, this thread is so silly it's hilarious. Yes, OP, the people who gank you are evil. Read all the German Idealism you want, it isn't making your question any more intelligent. In fact, it's making you look even sillier than if you had just honestly asked, without trying to get all 'the bowels of human nature' on us. People are complex. That's all you have to deal with when that ganker hits your ass multiple times. He/she's not evil, he/she's not trying to fuck with your life, he/she's not getting personal unless you let it get so. He/she's (GASP) just some person LIKE YOU with enough free time and money to spend in an afternoon of playing videogames. They're not learning anything. They're deciding to gank you and it's not an ethical choice, but a question of power embedded in the gameplay mechanics through the levelling system. In the 'real world' it would be an ethical choice. In these games, it's just one more suggested use very much enticed by the (oh so capitalist) hierarchy: after all, your digital persona is the same as mine and the exactly same as the mobs you're killing. You'd think the sun of Reason would've reached this side of the world by now like your guy said, but it seems like it's stuck somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic.
As for the dude blaming it on the generational divide, please man, get real. Your "back in the day" antics are as silly as the OP's question. Yeah man, back in the day, before the damn baby boomers, everything was better and the people were all cute and kind. You know, like in 1939 or 1914. Or say, like in, oh, most of the nineteenth century. And the eighteenth. Mmm, and, well, the seventeenth. You know what? Maybe since the bloody paleolithic when a stupid super ape decided to club another to death with a fallen tree branch. Yeah, such good times.
A little harsh, but I agree totally.
Iunno, with comments like 'you ask yourself why you persist in applying real-world morality to the gaming world' It seems more the PKer is choosing to disassociate morality with gaming than they are disassociating the real world with gaming.
This is further supported by their comment 'I play to be feared. I enjoy those other aspects too, of course, but they pale in comparison to the thrill of the hunt.' That right there is admitting to in their own words hunting other people. That's not dividing reality from games, that's pulling a legal version of those silly things where people of affluence would use slaves or willing/unwilling abductees to hunt like game.
The affluence remark also is an 'appeal to authority' coupled with a 'no true scotsman' plug. Stating their credentials and that they 'have a life' and aren't some basement dweller in order to disassociate themselves from both those they kill as well as generating a straw man to compare themselves against by creating a 'basement dweller' concept of a PKer even though that has little to nothing to do in whole about mindset.
The only really applicable line is where they say 'I'm not working out my agression on you, or emptying my "harbored angst at the world" into our shared fantasy. I simply "am."'.
In short, they are doing it because they enjoy it. Which like I said before is one of the many possible motivators. By many means, most gankers are more out there for the 'lulz' than they are for the stress relief. Is that somehow better than if they're acting on aggression? No.
Then are they doing it for the challenging fight? From their commentary, they're going for the 'thrill of the hunt'. So no.
They are looking for someone that will run and scream and squirm. Some one that will see their doom and try to escape. Of course that might be more fun than killing NPCs, AI isn't good at such things, too formulaic and boring once you figure it out.
At the same time, they aren't looking for the threat of competition either. They word it as being a hunter, not a combatant. And that saddens me.
It's like I always say. I play games for the challenge. I prefer to do PvP for the same reason as the 'hunter', but I also prefer to take on targets my own size. I like the unpredictability of entering a fight against some one equally prepared as me. It's all the more satisfaction when I walk away victorious.
And that cycles back to my respect comment as well. The person that wrote that started from the outset belittling those he writes to by hand waving 'morality' and asserting that they all are filled with scorn and delusion. Before he even establishes his own mind, he establishes a negative concept of his opponents. Pretty much the definition of dehumanizing right there.
The dude wants prey, he doesn't want a combatant. And that's the part I don't like.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Looks like the work of pirates, and I hate's pirates in EVE.
But that said, I understand pirates, and like you said, you kill for a purpose, like any good predator and I understand your motivation. Same for folks who kill for money (mercanaries), to defend their territory or who kill clan enemies. (war targets)
What I don't understand are those who run around and kill defenseless targets with no risk or reward. (other than the sheer "pleasure" of griefing a random person?) Yeah, those folks I'm pretty sure are sociopaths in real life no matter what they say to the contrary.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Nice killmail whoring lol. 10 people for a pod? Nicely done!
It depends on the extent of their pking/ganking actions, hard to invision most of them as a kind person in real life, the word kind is just too much of a stretch.
They usually end up coming acrossed as the 'in the background' types who are quiet, never heard, or ever get things their way in real life and just go with the flow, so they use MMO's to counter balance that. People seem to use it as more of a psychological ego booster thing from my point of view, but then there are some that are just dicks in the first place lol.