Ganking someone entirely uninterested in PvP is fun for the same reason it's subconsciously satisfying to give a cat a bath, no matter how much they squirm in the process. They're both small, helpless, and completely oblivious of the vicious potential of human psychology. These casual carebears are like ripe fruit, ready to have their innocence plucked and distilled into a fine paste. I suppose you either appreciate the beauty of player ganking or you don't- it's a sort of glorified, vigilante justice against the sin of needless complacency.
And what's wrong with using a game's intended battle mechanics to enjoy yourself whatever way you please?
I mean seriously, yes. No other way of putting it. This type of stereotyping is pretty ridiculous in most cases. People have emotions and these emotions can occasionally drive us to do something within the paremeters of a game that may be considering "not nice". If you want someone to blame, blame the game companies that allow such acts to happen. If a game can't stop griefers or corpse campers than its the games fault, not the other person. The game is not real-life and any real-life comparisons is pretty ridiculous to begin with. People talk different online than they do in real-life...test it for yourself. This is one scatter-brained post but maybe it makes sense...a little.
Originally posted by Solestran As far as I'm concerned, the menality of PKers is the same as those jerks who cut you off in traffic, cut in line, bitch at the manager till they get their way, have full conversations on the cell phone when with company, lie on their tax returns, be nice to your face then stab in you the back, embellish stories to make themselves look better.....etc. People may role play online, but their underlying morals are usually the same in game and out.
I agree completely with this. While the person might not be completely evil in real life I believe the core of their true personality are on show when it comes to how they act when they have a tiny bit of anonymity. Those that take part in Pking and griefing, knowing full well how much frustration and non-enjoyment it causes others, and then say they aren't like this in real life are liars for the most part as far as I'm concern. People that are nice to you when they look you in the face and then bad mouth you behind your back is a good analogy. We all like to pretend we are someone else when we roleplay. That's fine but your actions and how much you revel in them (while trying to make excuses) show who you really are and what you might really do if you could really do it.
So no I don't think a person that is a ganker could really be a nice person in real life. They might pretend to be in real life but they really aren't. They're putting up a front.
Inevitably, it is by definition of "kind nice person" that this is determined. If the definition is someone who is kind and nice to others in RL, then certainly. If the definition is someone who is kind and nice in nature, this becomes more uncertain in my opinion.
I have met different types of PK's-- some are hostile but will give you back your loot, especially if you're a newbie. In a game like Darkfall, I believe nice people can be PK's because this is what the game is about. This isn't UO where you are ganking PvErs. People who play Darkfall are PvPers, and PvPers alone. No one joins DF solely for the PvE experience, and if they do, they should expect to play by the same rules as those who assume all are in it for PvP.
There are the people who are jerks for the sake of being a jerk- mean people who are not kind in RL unless it benefits them. The kind that show no mercy, don't care about anything, and are rather just plain mean at the core or are always bitter and angry because of their life.
Then there are the people who are kind and nice in every other aspect, but unleash their frustrations and anger online, being a kind and nice person, but not always acting accordingly. Releasing frustrations or anger, being annoying or a jerk, does not stop them from being kind and nice people-- because these people at their core are kind, and will inevitably show you mercy or kindness if you indeed ask (or beg) for it and they realize you are being negatively affected by this and may not deserve it, so they reverse their actions.
So my conclusion would be... Yes, they can be a kind and nice person at their core, as even good hearted people have frustrations, anger, and a desire to crush skulls. However, being kind and nice to others in RL which you know but treat strangers and those online as a mean and evil person does NOT make you a kind and nice people in RL, it makes you a biased jerk in RL.
As the greatest person alive once said, even evil people know not to give snakes as presents to their children. Or in other words, that doesn't mean evil people are incapable of good, nor does it mean that doing good to a select few frees you from being evil.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
No, not really. Mostly because most pk/ganks have little to do with skill or fun, and all about ruining the other person's day. PVP in general, yeah you can be a nice person, though it's telling many PvP games have a reputation for asshats in the community. But unbalanced ganks, pking, or camping? Person is a tool.
As far as I'm concerned, the menality of PKers is the same as those jerks who cut you off in traffic, cut in line, bitch at the manager till they get their way, have full conversations on the cell phone when with company, lie on their tax returns, be nice to your face then stab in you the back, embellish stories to make themselves look better.....etc. People may role play online, but their underlying morals are usually the same in game and out.
I agree completely with this. While the person might not be completely evil in real life I believe the core of their true personality are on show when it comes to how they act when they have a tiny bit of anonymity. Those that take part in Pking and griefing, knowing full well how much frustration and non-enjoyment it causes others, and then say they aren't like this in real life are liars for the most part as far as I'm concern. People that are nice to you when they look you in the face and then bad mouth you behind your back is a good analogy. We all like to pretend we are someone else when we roleplay. That's fine but your actions and how much you revel in them (while trying to make excuses) show who you really are and what you might really do if you could really do it.
So no I don't think a person that is a ganker could really be a nice person in real life. They might pretend to be in real life but they really aren't. They're putting up a front.
This is a strong argument, because I am a kind hearted person in real life and at the core, and although I have wanted to PK and dry-hump some of those who frustrate me to no end (or even get so angry/frustrated I've wanted to kill them in real life to "teach them a lesson") I in actuality rarely do, and never PK unless provoked (even if I bait them).
I always have to have a reason, or else I feel it is just wrong, hurtful to others, and unjust. So I can't empthaize with people who take the (game) lives of others without reason, as I see it as taking their blood and dirtying their hands. When I was a newbie in Darkfall, the nice PK's would give me all my stuff back after I'd message them "Come on man...I'm a newbie and had no chance, and you just took 3 hours of my work..."
Some would even apologize for PKing me, "Sorry, you never know and I couldn't tell. In my eyes it was you or me. Here's all your stuff back. Stay safe friend." These are PKers who are nice at the core-- and people who would probably PK out of anger or frustration, or revenge, but not for no reason just for bloodlust and harm to others.
--------------
I have, however, had some epic encounters with people in Ultima Online (and to a lesser extent Darkfall) where the moment I see a chance to exact my revenge, I take it, and I slam down hard.
When I was 12 years old, I had an in-game girlfriend (who later I found out was 33+ so she was pedophiling me pretending to be 13 years old) who was my girlfriend for a few weeks until this rich (lots of gold) powerful (high magery, while I only had medium swords) 66 year old (looked it in the game and was this old IRL) stole her from me.
I dueled him and brought him to 1% life, and the battle stopped while he was like "I don't care. Go ahead. Do it!" and I wanted to kill him to "claim my girlfriend" but she intervened and demanded I stopped, so I "spared his life" for her, and backed off while she healed him. They gated away and I never saw them again until...
4 years later I was 16 years old and everyone was still playing-- and I met her again, and him. I went to her house in the wilderness and he attacked him along with his friends as I fell into an ambush. I slid under the house and hid barely escaping with 10% of my life (I always favored hiding in PvP) and stealthed my way back to town. Then I saw him at the bank, and saw my chance for revenge. (We were in the same guild, as the 33 year old invited me in before I left her house to almost die, so I was free to fight in town) I fought him and since he was alone, as always, I outclassed him and this time I brought him to his knees again at 1% health. On his knees with my sword at his throat he spoke, "She left me just like she did you-- for a 44 year old who has GM healing, 7xGM." (Wow...now that I think about it...she was just a Skill whore who went with whoever gave her the most gold and had the highest important skill..and a pedophile...)
I felt all the pain my teenage angst put upno me for those 4 years, as that 33 year old was my first "love" (Embarassing, lol, but I was 12...) And I thought of giving him mercy, but the painful memories flashed in my head, so I denied his request for mercy and as he chuckled in the irony, I chopped off his head and placed it in my bag. Just before dying, he said "She is not as old as you had always thought..." and that is when I realized she was a 33 year old pedophile, instantly ending my "Love" for her that I held on to for 16 years. So I went to what was once "our" hunting spot, and tossed the soulbound wedding ring on the spot I proposed to her on-- and right before I went to pick it back up it vanished (no lie) and I couldn't ever get it back. So I accepted my loss, and moved on.
Quite an epic story for a 12 year old boy crushing for the first time, and full of revenge, irony, and the biggest nerdage and emo emotions a teenager could have.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
In reply to the OP, yes. People that label others they dont even know irl are worse than some random ganker anyway. You should be more worried about the bitter hate some of these folks up in this thread are spewing.
In reply to the OP, yes. People that label others they dont even know irl are worse than some random ganker anyway. You should be more worried about the bitter hate some of these folks up in this thread are spewing.
In some games or forums, I really don't believe some of these "jerks" whether they be PK's or extremely offensive or lofty people are nice in real life, when they deny being upset.
If you ask a simple question, "Are you normally like this, or do these forums just upset you?" and they answer "These forums don't upset me!" then they are most likely always jerks.
By some of the way I've seen people treat others or myself on games or forums on a consistent basis-- never showing any kindness or respect to balance it out, I truly do not believe them when they say "I am actually nice in real life." as they are probably liars or so arrogant and lofty they believe they are Saints when they are just bad apples.
I can be pretty aggressive in forums where "stupid people" who fail things such as basic reading comprehension (repeatedly) and are baiting/trolling, as those people really frustrate me quickly, and some are even relentless to harass me in private messages with personal attacks (which are never accurate, odd). Then those same people claim to be professionals in the gaming industry (without any knowledge of the industry, just insults) or they claim to be nice in real life, yet a quick search of their posts results in nothing but attacks and negatives-- never once a thank you or respectful reply.
At least I provide both positive, friendly, complimentary posts to balance out my frustrated, aggressive, extremely annoying at blind people posts. This is because I really am a nice person in real life (I often try to negotiate a truce with trolls who PM me with nasty insults, always failing) but am just easily frustrated with the level of stupidity of some people.
Others, you do a search and find 0 nice things said over the span of years. You find out they are not just extremely lofty and insulting, but bring nothing but negativity and trolling to a forum- never any good discussions or respectful dialogue among mature and intelligent readers. (As opposed to unintelligent trolls who don't read).
If you don't believe me when I say I am normally nice because I can be seen as offensive or defensive in reply (I am often just logical and type very fast and although I challenge trolls and argue a lot, I have been spotlight poster twice. It's quite obvious that even if I can APPEAR to be offensive (bc you create tone that doesnt exist) I still contribute positively to the community to create real discussion amongst its members. Others (the bad ones), they just troll and troll and troll. I wish I could post some private messages from some people who claim to be "respected" members here, just to show how immature, insulting, and down-right HORRIBLE they can be.
I've received threats to my life and private "curses" from people on these forums for holding firmly to ideas or facts I receive from working in the MMORPG industry. It's amazing that saying "I am a MMO developer, and I am here to talk to you!" can lead to death threats in private messages. These are psychopaths who get offended that others even exist without their permission.
They don't care about intellectual discussion. They don't seek to actually HAVE conversations on forums. They don't post to encourage others or compliment anyone. No, they are just rotten people who contribute nothing but hatred to the community. These types infest games, and if they could they would kill you just for the fun of it.
So sure not all PK's are evil, and some are probably great people-- but since most people seem to be rather nasty and unintelligent, I gather that PK's will also fall into this same bubble and their treatment of others in game is a reflection of how they treat others in real life.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Well, all definitions are known to be not sufficient. I was definitely taking about PKers-skull-hunters, griefers, any MMO players that enjoy “to ruin somelses game”.
The cliché argument “It’s a game” does not work for me: you are playing not alone, there are other players (humans) with different game interests, preferences. Technically you can rob your neighbor, but you are not doing that because of your internal moral principals or just being scared to be punished by law. There is no police in the games, penalties are often minor or absent. Social matureness foresees an ability to reflect, predict the reaction of another person (“respect others as persons”), full responsibility for your actions.
Aggressiveness, intolerance are known to be signs of weakness: a really strong person has no need to demonstrate his strength in order to convince himself and others that he is strong, he is simply strong.
“Play another game.” I was mentioned that there were really few “clones” available now. It is not an easy task to find a suitable for your taste MMO (genre, graphic, UI, business scheme, etc.). So, “carebears” start to complain on PvP games’ forums.
Any rule has exceptions. So, I do not think that every PKer-griefer is a bad person in RL. But I do not understand/support this dualism of behavior modes: kind helpful person in reality and jerk in virtual world.
Moreover, I was mainly addressing this problem to kids and badly socially educated individuals (PhD degrees are not sufficient to become a human).
However, my main interest was game design. We are spending long hours playing MMOs creating, developing our characters-avatars. Maybe, they (our PCs) are also playing with us, creating us? IMO game developers, community in general should serously analyze what social impact that MMOs might have. I believe that this serous Forum is a right place.
But again, I don't understand what the issue is. If people know the rules/penalties why not play another game?
The same could be said of hardcore pvp'ers who go into a pve game and scream bloody murder that there isn't pvp.
What you are essentially saying (or at least this is what I'm getting) is that since there are so few games out there that people might want to play, players should come in and change them? That just doesn't makes sense.
I"m not going ot say that there are't people with issues who are getting their jollies making other people's lives miserable. I've met a few nasty people in these games only to find out later that they were miserable wretches in real life.
but I will once again state that if a game has penalties that one doesn't like then they should just move on. It shouldn't be an issue. There are players that like the "I ganked you and you will eventually gank me" type of game play. I say let them have their game.
I've always been about personal choice and also personal responsibility.
People need to take responsibility for their own gaming. Just like there are some blatant "sex games" online I would say that if that isn't your thing "don't play them".
I think you're missing the point of these people who complain (Whether they are PvErs in PvP or PvPers in PvE).
These people love the MMORPG part of the MMORPG. They love the combat style, the game mechanics, the character buildings, character races, skills, classes, etc. Lore, game world, zones, theme, etc.
If they love all the game, it is not surprising they might say "I want there to be PvP! FFA PvP!" or "I don't want FFA PvP, ergh, I want to play without being ganked!!"
Why? It's obvious, They love every other aspect of the game. These people don't have to "take responsibility" as their opinions aren't invalid to enjoy 99 of 100 features in the game, and wish that 1 feature was different.
I myself love every aspect of games. I loved EQ2 and Vanguard to death--- but neither had PvP (or real, adequate, balanced PvP). Sucks. I'd have thought these games were perfect if they included PvP or RvR. Vanguard + DAoC Keep Sieges = Perfect, IMO.
Then there are games like Darkfall, which actually have some great features and fun concepts-- but you don't ALWAYS want to play dangerous FFA PvP. Sometimes you want to play that same game, but relaxed. Having to always be on stress alert mode is not always enjoyable. (I think they did a good job if you weant to grind or craft in your own guild, but... no offense those gameplay types sucked compared to the more fun parts of the game)
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
In reply to the OP, yes. People that label others they dont even know irl are worse than some random ganker anyway. You should be more worried about the bitter hate some of these folks up in this thread are spewing.
True dat.
I think it is also a case of people seeing the game differently. Some take it more seriously than others and some just see it as a game, and PK its most exciting feature. So they do what is most exciting. Nothing sinister about it. They're only playing a game.
Many people complained about pirates in Eve but in reality its the most fun thing to do in the game. Seeing other people in space is rare enough so they attack everyone they see. The game would be very boring if they'd let most of 'em go. I know I killed many travelers just to fend of boredom. No money gained, no gear gained, no fame gained... just the urge to do something.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I've seen a lot of people who's personalities totally change when they are online. As soon as accountability stops, and there is a veil of anonymity, people find they can get away with murder (and in the case of PK/Griefers, semi-literally), and often will resort to these instant gratification style behaviors.
As soon as they turn the computer off, it's right back to normal. I don't think it really has anything to do with being a nice person or not. I think it's that there is a clear and total disconnect between the real world, and the virtual world. And perhaps that disconnect should be there to some extent.
In reply to the OP, yes. People that label others they dont even know irl are worse than some random ganker anyway. You should be more worried about the bitter hate some of these folks up in this thread are spewing.
True dat.
I think it is also a case of people seeing the game differently. Some take it more seriously than others and some just see it as a game, and PK its most exciting feature. So they do what is most exciting. Nothing sinister about it. They're only playing a game.
Many people complained about pirates in Eve but in reality its the most fun thing to do in the game. Seeing other people in space is rare enough so they attack everyone they see. The game would be very boring if they'd let most of 'em go. I know I killed many travelers just to fend of boredom. No money gained, no gear gained, no fame gained... just the urge to do something.
Really good point I had not taken into consideration. Extremely good point.
I retract some of what I said in this thread, as this is a very good point.
(Yea, I said it's a good point 3 times, bc really...it's a great point.)
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
I've seen a lot of people who's personalities totally change when they are online. As soon as accountability stops, and there is a veil of anonymity, people find they can get away with murder (and in the case of PK/Griefers, semi-literally), and often will resort to these instant gratification style behaviors.
As soon as they turn the computer off, it's right back to normal. I don't think it really has anything to do with being a nice person or not. I think it's that there is a clear and total disconnect between the real world, and the virtual world. And perhaps that disconnect should be there to some extent.
If this is the case, then their online persona is their real personality, and they only choose to be "normal" to avoid punishment.
Seriously...some people are heartless evil creatures who WANT to murder others. They just never do and act "normal" because in society, the risks are not worth it as if you get caught, you lose your own life.
These monsters are too selfish to risk losing their own lives, so they don't take the lives of others, even though they would if they could.
People are more true to themselves online than in real life, BECAUSE the barriers are removed and anonymity protects them. They don't become "different" or "lose touch with reality" online. No, they actually get in touch with reality and become who they truly are. They are DIFFERENT when they pretend to put on a face for the rest of the world. They lose touch with reality when they become "Normal".
Face it, some people are just rotten and playing "normal" doesn't change that. And most people are cowards, it's as simple as that. People don't even have the capacity to be themselves with even those they are closest too. *rolls eyes* People are weird.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
poeple need to remember that a game is just that a game. in games we can be whatever we want to be , we can be nice and noble or nasty and evil what we need to remember is that its just a game.
i think some people forget this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escapism is something we all do to various degrees. does it make a person bad in real life lmao of course not !!!!
you cant judge a person how they roleplay, the KEYWORD here is ROLEPLAY becuase as soon as u enter a game thats what you are doing thats what the rp in mmorpg MEANS! some will claim they are not roleplaying (mostly cuase they are not good at it so claim im not trying) but as soon as u decide to be a mage or knight or barb or a space pirate or orc or w/e in a game u ARE ROLEPLAYING
ive always thought people that play such games and expect and want others to behave like it was real life need a serious reality check becuase its not real life and im not talking about those that CHOOSE to play the goody goody knight in shining armor roles but of the ones that actually get upset over what happens in game.
theres a certain maturity needed to play these games its unfortunate not evryone has enough .
I think many people who do PK have some sort of RL issues. Even if they're taking virtual property or ending another's virtual life, the fact that they get some sort of real pleasure out of it and don't care about the victim shows they have some issues.
The fact is, they are preying on other people without any kind of empathy and it gives them pleasure. Twisted? You decide.
Also, I don't think how a person acts in real life is really any indication of how stable they are. There are serial killers that can appear to be the nicest person in the world.
OMG...
The game gives you abilities to use against your enemy. So if you use them , then all of a sudden that makes you the same as a serial killer?
Maybe there is something wrong with the people that are saying stuff like this?
PVP is a large part of most games, and the only reason some people even play them. It is like a sport for some. It is competitive in nature. It's like playing mortal kombat with your friend and then crying on the forums because you got killed.
Your reading comprehension isn't very good. I wasn't saying PKing makes you the same as a serial killer, I was saying taking pleasure at another's misfortune isn't a sign of a healthy individual.
What about the millions of people who love to watch those bloopers videos of idiots riding bikes off roofs and such like? Are they all latent serial killers too, just waiting, waiting for their chance to strike? Have YOU ever watched such a clip, even on youtube, and laughed? If you have, you're basically Ted Bundy #2!
Seriously man, get over yourself. There's nothing more normal than laughing at someone else's misfortune, assuming the misfortune is essentially trivial. Like, for instance, losing a few e-pixels in a game - how much more trival can a misfortune be?
And if you dont find such things essentially trivial, then I'd propose that it's you with whom there is something wrong.
I think many people who do PK have some sort of RL issues. Even if they're taking virtual property or ending another's virtual life, the fact that they get some sort of real pleasure out of it and don't care about the victim shows they have some issues.
The fact is, they are preying on other people without any kind of empathy and it gives them pleasure. Twisted? You decide.
Also, I don't think how a person acts in real life is really any indication of how stable they are. There are serial killers that can appear to be the nicest person in the world.
OMG...
The game gives you abilities to use against your enemy. So if you use them , then all of a sudden that makes you the same as a serial killer?
Maybe there is something wrong with the people that are saying stuff like this?
PVP is a large part of most games, and the only reason some people even play them. It is like a sport for some. It is competitive in nature. It's like playing mortal kombat with your friend and then crying on the forums because you got killed.
Your reading comprehension isn't very good. I wasn't saying PKing makes you the same as a serial killer, I was saying taking pleasure at another's misfortune isn't a sign of a healthy individual.
What about the millions of people who love to watch those bloopers videos of idiots riding bikes off roofs and such like? Are they all latent serial killers too, just waiting, waiting for their chance to strike? Have YOU ever watched such a clip, even on youtube, and laughed? If you have, you're basically Ted Bundy #2!
Seriously man, get over yourself. There's nothing more normal than laughing at someone else's misfortune, assuming the misfortune is essentially trivial. Like, for instance, losing a few e-pixels in a game - how much more trival can a misfortune be?
And if you dont find such things essentially trivial, then I'd propose that it's you with whom there is something wrong.
Yes, you are right, the "normal" person is very far from being a perfectly "good" person. The "normal" person is indeed very flawed in so many aspects.
What games we play, and how we choose to play them, defines us as people and a society. How you act in a game is who you really are, freed of social restraint.
our choices within the anonymity of the internet speak loudly imo.
Nice killmail whoring lol. 10 people for a pod? Nicely done!
Pirates are nice people, and they like to share!
Incidentally, the pirate corps I'm flying with are all really nice people, great to talk with on comms. About half of them have children. We pool our loot so we can buy the ships we need, we lend each other our stuff and get it back, we back each other up in fights, and we murder chumps who jump into low-sec so we can loot their wrecks and engage in brutal battles with other gangs who want the prime turf.
The apparent dichotomy is resolved when you zoom out a little and realise that no-one is actually dying, and that we're not "murderers" any more than a football player is a "mugger" for running up to someone on the opposite team, knocking him to the ground and taking the ball from him. Behaviour that is perfectly acceptable - in fact highly praised! - on a football pitch
No doubt Emergence has a different perspective on football than I do; he is definitely someone who should "zoom out a little". In my qualified internet psychologist opinion, of course...
I think many people who do PK have some sort of RL issues. Even if they're taking virtual property or ending another's virtual life, the fact that they get some sort of real pleasure out of it and don't care about the victim shows they have some issues.
The fact is, they are preying on other people without any kind of empathy and it gives them pleasure. Twisted? You decide.
Also, I don't think how a person acts in real life is really any indication of how stable they are. There are serial killers that can appear to be the nicest person in the world.
OMG...
The game gives you abilities to use against your enemy. So if you use them , then all of a sudden that makes you the same as a serial killer?
Maybe there is something wrong with the people that are saying stuff like this?
PVP is a large part of most games, and the only reason some people even play them. It is like a sport for some. It is competitive in nature. It's like playing mortal kombat with your friend and then crying on the forums because you got killed.
Your reading comprehension isn't very good. I wasn't saying PKing makes you the same as a serial killer, I was saying taking pleasure at another's misfortune isn't a sign of a healthy individual.
What about the millions of people who love to watch those bloopers videos of idiots riding bikes off roofs and such like? Are they all latent serial killers too, just waiting, waiting for their chance to strike? Have YOU ever watched such a clip, even on youtube, and laughed? If you have, you're basically Ted Bundy #2!
Seriously man, get over yourself. There's nothing more normal than laughing at someone else's misfortune, assuming the misfortune is essentially trivial. Like, for instance, losing a few e-pixels in a game - how much more trival can a misfortune be?
And if you dont find such things essentially trivial, then I'd propose that it's you with whom there is something wrong.
Yes, you are right, the "normal" person is very far from being a perfectly "good" person. The "normal" person is indeed very flawed in so many aspects.
Well to be honest, yes we are. Everyone has a "bad" side to their character. No-one's a perfect saint, and I would be very cautious of anyone who claimed to be one. Where people like Emergence go wrong is to assume that people are so one-dimensional. In his view, people are either wholly good OR wholly bad. That's it. If you ever do anything bad, then no matter how many other good things you do, you're just a bad person pretending to be good. But in reality, nobody is so purely good or bad. Even good people will occasionally do a mean or selfish thing. (Even Jesus got mad and PvP'd the moneychangers that one time!)
I know for a fact that being evil in video games helps some people be good in real life. They work out their mean side by pwning noobs for a few hours, and then they go forth into the daylight and are able to be patient, generous and understanding towards the people they meet.
I think it depends on how much they gank really, I mean if they do it all the time, arent helpful to new players, generally just take take out of guild supplies and never help replemish, kill new players on a regular basis, then there generally showing its more of a characteristic trait, that a bit of messing about.
Some people might gank here and there, but are helpful to new players or to there guild/clan, sometimes people just want a change from helping others.
But even though there are games, it does effect ones behaviour, media mimicks society, and society ends up mimicking media. So to say "its just a game" doesnt really work because its a persons characteristics that define how a person plays in a game.
I think you're missing the point of these people who complain (Whether they are PvErs in PvP or PvPers in PvE).
These people love the MMORPG part of the MMORPG. They love the combat style, the game mechanics, the character buildings, character races, skills, classes, etc. Lore, game world, zones, theme, etc.
If they love all the game, it is not surprising they might say "I want there to be PvP! FFA PvP!" or "I don't want FFA PvP, ergh, I want to play without being ganked!!"
Why? It's obvious, They love every other aspect of the game. These people don't have to "take responsibility" as their opinions aren't invalid to enjoy 99 of 100 features in the game, and wish that 1 feature was different.
That's actually a very good point. good call.
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Ganking someone entirely uninterested in PvP is fun for the same reason it's subconsciously satisfying to give a cat a bath, no matter how much they squirm in the process. They're both small, helpless, and completely oblivious of the vicious potential of human psychology. These casual carebears are like ripe fruit, ready to have their innocence plucked and distilled into a fine paste. I suppose you either appreciate the beauty of player ganking or you don't- it's a sort of glorified, vigilante justice against the sin of needless complacency.
And what's wrong with using a game's intended battle mechanics to enjoy yourself whatever way you please?
Yes.
I mean seriously, yes. No other way of putting it. This type of stereotyping is pretty ridiculous in most cases. People have emotions and these emotions can occasionally drive us to do something within the paremeters of a game that may be considering "not nice". If you want someone to blame, blame the game companies that allow such acts to happen. If a game can't stop griefers or corpse campers than its the games fault, not the other person. The game is not real-life and any real-life comparisons is pretty ridiculous to begin with. People talk different online than they do in real-life...test it for yourself. This is one scatter-brained post but maybe it makes sense...a little.
I agree completely with this. While the person might not be completely evil in real life I believe the core of their true personality are on show when it comes to how they act when they have a tiny bit of anonymity. Those that take part in Pking and griefing, knowing full well how much frustration and non-enjoyment it causes others, and then say they aren't like this in real life are liars for the most part as far as I'm concern. People that are nice to you when they look you in the face and then bad mouth you behind your back is a good analogy. We all like to pretend we are someone else when we roleplay. That's fine but your actions and how much you revel in them (while trying to make excuses) show who you really are and what you might really do if you could really do it.
So no I don't think a person that is a ganker could really be a nice person in real life. They might pretend to be in real life but they really aren't. They're putting up a front.
Inevitably, it is by definition of "kind nice person" that this is determined. If the definition is someone who is kind and nice to others in RL, then certainly. If the definition is someone who is kind and nice in nature, this becomes more uncertain in my opinion.
I have met different types of PK's-- some are hostile but will give you back your loot, especially if you're a newbie. In a game like Darkfall, I believe nice people can be PK's because this is what the game is about. This isn't UO where you are ganking PvErs. People who play Darkfall are PvPers, and PvPers alone. No one joins DF solely for the PvE experience, and if they do, they should expect to play by the same rules as those who assume all are in it for PvP.
There are the people who are jerks for the sake of being a jerk- mean people who are not kind in RL unless it benefits them. The kind that show no mercy, don't care about anything, and are rather just plain mean at the core or are always bitter and angry because of their life.
Then there are the people who are kind and nice in every other aspect, but unleash their frustrations and anger online, being a kind and nice person, but not always acting accordingly. Releasing frustrations or anger, being annoying or a jerk, does not stop them from being kind and nice people-- because these people at their core are kind, and will inevitably show you mercy or kindness if you indeed ask (or beg) for it and they realize you are being negatively affected by this and may not deserve it, so they reverse their actions.
So my conclusion would be... Yes, they can be a kind and nice person at their core, as even good hearted people have frustrations, anger, and a desire to crush skulls. However, being kind and nice to others in RL which you know but treat strangers and those online as a mean and evil person does NOT make you a kind and nice people in RL, it makes you a biased jerk in RL.
As the greatest person alive once said, even evil people know not to give snakes as presents to their children. Or in other words, that doesn't mean evil people are incapable of good, nor does it mean that doing good to a select few frees you from being evil.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
No, not really. Mostly because most pk/ganks have little to do with skill or fun, and all about ruining the other person's day. PVP in general, yeah you can be a nice person, though it's telling many PvP games have a reputation for asshats in the community. But unbalanced ganks, pking, or camping? Person is a tool.
This is a strong argument, because I am a kind hearted person in real life and at the core, and although I have wanted to PK and dry-hump some of those who frustrate me to no end (or even get so angry/frustrated I've wanted to kill them in real life to "teach them a lesson") I in actuality rarely do, and never PK unless provoked (even if I bait them).
I always have to have a reason, or else I feel it is just wrong, hurtful to others, and unjust. So I can't empthaize with people who take the (game) lives of others without reason, as I see it as taking their blood and dirtying their hands. When I was a newbie in Darkfall, the nice PK's would give me all my stuff back after I'd message them "Come on man...I'm a newbie and had no chance, and you just took 3 hours of my work..."
Some would even apologize for PKing me, "Sorry, you never know and I couldn't tell. In my eyes it was you or me. Here's all your stuff back. Stay safe friend." These are PKers who are nice at the core-- and people who would probably PK out of anger or frustration, or revenge, but not for no reason just for bloodlust and harm to others.
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I have, however, had some epic encounters with people in Ultima Online (and to a lesser extent Darkfall) where the moment I see a chance to exact my revenge, I take it, and I slam down hard.
When I was 12 years old, I had an in-game girlfriend (who later I found out was 33+ so she was pedophiling me pretending to be 13 years old) who was my girlfriend for a few weeks until this rich (lots of gold) powerful (high magery, while I only had medium swords) 66 year old (looked it in the game and was this old IRL) stole her from me.
I dueled him and brought him to 1% life, and the battle stopped while he was like "I don't care. Go ahead. Do it!" and I wanted to kill him to "claim my girlfriend" but she intervened and demanded I stopped, so I "spared his life" for her, and backed off while she healed him. They gated away and I never saw them again until...
4 years later I was 16 years old and everyone was still playing-- and I met her again, and him. I went to her house in the wilderness and he attacked him along with his friends as I fell into an ambush. I slid under the house and hid barely escaping with 10% of my life (I always favored hiding in PvP) and stealthed my way back to town. Then I saw him at the bank, and saw my chance for revenge. (We were in the same guild, as the 33 year old invited me in before I left her house to almost die, so I was free to fight in town) I fought him and since he was alone, as always, I outclassed him and this time I brought him to his knees again at 1% health. On his knees with my sword at his throat he spoke, "She left me just like she did you-- for a 44 year old who has GM healing, 7xGM." (Wow...now that I think about it...she was just a Skill whore who went with whoever gave her the most gold and had the highest important skill..and a pedophile...)
I felt all the pain my teenage angst put upno me for those 4 years, as that 33 year old was my first "love" (Embarassing, lol, but I was 12...) And I thought of giving him mercy, but the painful memories flashed in my head, so I denied his request for mercy and as he chuckled in the irony, I chopped off his head and placed it in my bag. Just before dying, he said "She is not as old as you had always thought..." and that is when I realized she was a 33 year old pedophile, instantly ending my "Love" for her that I held on to for 16 years. So I went to what was once "our" hunting spot, and tossed the soulbound wedding ring on the spot I proposed to her on-- and right before I went to pick it back up it vanished (no lie) and I couldn't ever get it back. So I accepted my loss, and moved on.
Quite an epic story for a 12 year old boy crushing for the first time, and full of revenge, irony, and the biggest nerdage and emo emotions a teenager could have.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
In reply to the OP, yes. People that label others they dont even know irl are worse than some random ganker anyway. You should be more worried about the bitter hate some of these folks up in this thread are spewing.
In some games or forums, I really don't believe some of these "jerks" whether they be PK's or extremely offensive or lofty people are nice in real life, when they deny being upset.
If you ask a simple question, "Are you normally like this, or do these forums just upset you?" and they answer "These forums don't upset me!" then they are most likely always jerks.
By some of the way I've seen people treat others or myself on games or forums on a consistent basis-- never showing any kindness or respect to balance it out, I truly do not believe them when they say "I am actually nice in real life." as they are probably liars or so arrogant and lofty they believe they are Saints when they are just bad apples.
I can be pretty aggressive in forums where "stupid people" who fail things such as basic reading comprehension (repeatedly) and are baiting/trolling, as those people really frustrate me quickly, and some are even relentless to harass me in private messages with personal attacks (which are never accurate, odd). Then those same people claim to be professionals in the gaming industry (without any knowledge of the industry, just insults) or they claim to be nice in real life, yet a quick search of their posts results in nothing but attacks and negatives-- never once a thank you or respectful reply.
At least I provide both positive, friendly, complimentary posts to balance out my frustrated, aggressive, extremely annoying at blind people posts. This is because I really am a nice person in real life (I often try to negotiate a truce with trolls who PM me with nasty insults, always failing) but am just easily frustrated with the level of stupidity of some people.
Others, you do a search and find 0 nice things said over the span of years. You find out they are not just extremely lofty and insulting, but bring nothing but negativity and trolling to a forum- never any good discussions or respectful dialogue among mature and intelligent readers. (As opposed to unintelligent trolls who don't read).
If you don't believe me when I say I am normally nice because I can be seen as offensive or defensive in reply (I am often just logical and type very fast and although I challenge trolls and argue a lot, I have been spotlight poster twice. It's quite obvious that even if I can APPEAR to be offensive (bc you create tone that doesnt exist) I still contribute positively to the community to create real discussion amongst its members. Others (the bad ones), they just troll and troll and troll. I wish I could post some private messages from some people who claim to be "respected" members here, just to show how immature, insulting, and down-right HORRIBLE they can be.
I've received threats to my life and private "curses" from people on these forums for holding firmly to ideas or facts I receive from working in the MMORPG industry. It's amazing that saying "I am a MMO developer, and I am here to talk to you!" can lead to death threats in private messages. These are psychopaths who get offended that others even exist without their permission.
They don't care about intellectual discussion. They don't seek to actually HAVE conversations on forums. They don't post to encourage others or compliment anyone. No, they are just rotten people who contribute nothing but hatred to the community. These types infest games, and if they could they would kill you just for the fun of it.
So sure not all PK's are evil, and some are probably great people-- but since most people seem to be rather nasty and unintelligent, I gather that PK's will also fall into this same bubble and their treatment of others in game is a reflection of how they treat others in real life.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
We should make a new thread :
"Are those players who roll a toon in a wild pvp server without wanting to pvp (and then complain about getting ganked) complete retards"?
Rawr.
I think you're missing the point of these people who complain (Whether they are PvErs in PvP or PvPers in PvE).
These people love the MMORPG part of the MMORPG. They love the combat style, the game mechanics, the character buildings, character races, skills, classes, etc. Lore, game world, zones, theme, etc.
If they love all the game, it is not surprising they might say "I want there to be PvP! FFA PvP!" or "I don't want FFA PvP, ergh, I want to play without being ganked!!"
Why? It's obvious, They love every other aspect of the game. These people don't have to "take responsibility" as their opinions aren't invalid to enjoy 99 of 100 features in the game, and wish that 1 feature was different.
I myself love every aspect of games. I loved EQ2 and Vanguard to death--- but neither had PvP (or real, adequate, balanced PvP). Sucks. I'd have thought these games were perfect if they included PvP or RvR. Vanguard + DAoC Keep Sieges = Perfect, IMO.
Then there are games like Darkfall, which actually have some great features and fun concepts-- but you don't ALWAYS want to play dangerous FFA PvP. Sometimes you want to play that same game, but relaxed. Having to always be on stress alert mode is not always enjoyable. (I think they did a good job if you weant to grind or craft in your own guild, but... no offense those gameplay types sucked compared to the more fun parts of the game)
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
True dat.
I think it is also a case of people seeing the game differently. Some take it more seriously than others and some just see it as a game, and PK its most exciting feature. So they do what is most exciting. Nothing sinister about it. They're only playing a game.
Many people complained about pirates in Eve but in reality its the most fun thing to do in the game. Seeing other people in space is rare enough so they attack everyone they see. The game would be very boring if they'd let most of 'em go. I know I killed many travelers just to fend of boredom. No money gained, no gear gained, no fame gained... just the urge to do something.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I've seen a lot of people who's personalities totally change when they are online. As soon as accountability stops, and there is a veil of anonymity, people find they can get away with murder (and in the case of PK/Griefers, semi-literally), and often will resort to these instant gratification style behaviors.
As soon as they turn the computer off, it's right back to normal. I don't think it really has anything to do with being a nice person or not. I think it's that there is a clear and total disconnect between the real world, and the virtual world. And perhaps that disconnect should be there to some extent.
Really good point I had not taken into consideration. Extremely good point.
I retract some of what I said in this thread, as this is a very good point.
(Yea, I said it's a good point 3 times, bc really...it's a great point.)
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
If this is the case, then their online persona is their real personality, and they only choose to be "normal" to avoid punishment.
Seriously...some people are heartless evil creatures who WANT to murder others. They just never do and act "normal" because in society, the risks are not worth it as if you get caught, you lose your own life.
These monsters are too selfish to risk losing their own lives, so they don't take the lives of others, even though they would if they could.
People are more true to themselves online than in real life, BECAUSE the barriers are removed and anonymity protects them. They don't become "different" or "lose touch with reality" online. No, they actually get in touch with reality and become who they truly are. They are DIFFERENT when they pretend to put on a face for the rest of the world. They lose touch with reality when they become "Normal".
Face it, some people are just rotten and playing "normal" doesn't change that. And most people are cowards, it's as simple as that. People don't even have the capacity to be themselves with even those they are closest too. *rolls eyes* People are weird.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
most mmorpg got good side vs bad side. for example cov/coh, Star War, Age of Reckoning and many others.
usually the good sides are play by people who are not a good person in real life. usually their attitude are very bad.
Which FF Character Are You?
poeple need to remember that a game is just that a game. in games we can be whatever we want to be , we can be nice and noble or nasty and evil what we need to remember is that its just a game.
i think some people forget this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escapism is something we all do to various degrees. does it make a person bad in real life lmao of course not !!!!
you cant judge a person how they roleplay, the KEYWORD here is ROLEPLAY becuase as soon as u enter a game thats what you are doing thats what the rp in mmorpg MEANS! some will claim they are not roleplaying (mostly cuase they are not good at it so claim im not trying) but as soon as u decide to be a mage or knight or barb or a space pirate or orc or w/e in a game u ARE ROLEPLAYING
ive always thought people that play such games and expect and want others to behave like it was real life need a serious reality check becuase its not real life and im not talking about those that CHOOSE to play the goody goody knight in shining armor roles but of the ones that actually get upset over what happens in game.
theres a certain maturity needed to play these games its unfortunate not evryone has enough .
@Emergence you need to read this to see why u are wrong http://allpsych.com/psychology101/ego.html .
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
What about the millions of people who love to watch those bloopers videos of idiots riding bikes off roofs and such like? Are they all latent serial killers too, just waiting, waiting for their chance to strike? Have YOU ever watched such a clip, even on youtube, and laughed? If you have, you're basically Ted Bundy #2!
Seriously man, get over yourself. There's nothing more normal than laughing at someone else's misfortune, assuming the misfortune is essentially trivial. Like, for instance, losing a few e-pixels in a game - how much more trival can a misfortune be?
And if you dont find such things essentially trivial, then I'd propose that it's you with whom there is something wrong.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Yes, you are right, the "normal" person is very far from being a perfectly "good" person. The "normal" person is indeed very flawed in so many aspects.
What games we play, and how we choose to play them, defines us as people and a society. How you act in a game is who you really are, freed of social restraint.
our choices within the anonymity of the internet speak loudly imo.
Pk who ruin the gameplay of others on purpose aren't nice people. I do not think they are nice people in RL either.
People can change over time though.
Pirates are nice people, and they like to share!
Incidentally, the pirate corps I'm flying with are all really nice people, great to talk with on comms. About half of them have children. We pool our loot so we can buy the ships we need, we lend each other our stuff and get it back, we back each other up in fights, and we murder chumps who jump into low-sec so we can loot their wrecks and engage in brutal battles with other gangs who want the prime turf.
The apparent dichotomy is resolved when you zoom out a little and realise that no-one is actually dying, and that we're not "murderers" any more than a football player is a "mugger" for running up to someone on the opposite team, knocking him to the ground and taking the ball from him. Behaviour that is perfectly acceptable - in fact highly praised! - on a football pitch
No doubt Emergence has a different perspective on football than I do; he is definitely someone who should "zoom out a little". In my qualified internet psychologist opinion, of course...
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Well to be honest, yes we are. Everyone has a "bad" side to their character. No-one's a perfect saint, and I would be very cautious of anyone who claimed to be one. Where people like Emergence go wrong is to assume that people are so one-dimensional. In his view, people are either wholly good OR wholly bad. That's it. If you ever do anything bad, then no matter how many other good things you do, you're just a bad person pretending to be good. But in reality, nobody is so purely good or bad. Even good people will occasionally do a mean or selfish thing. (Even Jesus got mad and PvP'd the moneychangers that one time!)
I know for a fact that being evil in video games helps some people be good in real life. They work out their mean side by pwning noobs for a few hours, and then they go forth into the daylight and are able to be patient, generous and understanding towards the people they meet.
Me? I just like the free loot.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
I think it depends on how much they gank really, I mean if they do it all the time, arent helpful to new players, generally just take take out of guild supplies and never help replemish, kill new players on a regular basis, then there generally showing its more of a characteristic trait, that a bit of messing about.
Some people might gank here and there, but are helpful to new players or to there guild/clan, sometimes people just want a change from helping others.
But even though there are games, it does effect ones behaviour, media mimicks society, and society ends up mimicking media. So to say "its just a game" doesnt really work because its a persons characteristics that define how a person plays in a game.
That's actually a very good point. good call.
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I like to think im a nice person in real life, But if i want to role play a crminal in a role playing game, why cant I?
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