Do you believe in a God

Adreal · May 2005

Once you stray away from what is said in the bible, you lose all credibility.

Do I lose credibility in looking out at the world and its biological complexities and believing that it quite likely had to have some higher intellect to intervene and create biological life?

PS. Dekron, the Bible itself shows that those other than the followers of God can have the gift of prophecy (foretelling future events) as well.

PPS. I think I misunderstood what you said in my first statement, so that's my bad. Sorry.

Drega · May 2005

I find Nostrodamus' works just as easily linked to the political times as the scriptures the bible is comprised of were written. Both are only provable after a similar event has come and gone.

methane47 · May 2005

-These are my comments on the above poster-
Yeah Moses wrote the first few books of the bible. and that's actually a very good way of interpretting it. In my class on religion (not only christianity) How Genisis is written is much like how an adult explains a child. We studied Genisis especially. Another view is that It was intentionally written like that So as to make the beginning (and God) seem like a mysterious but loving God and a mysterious beginning filled with null and void, ANd that we weren't humble enough to know the full-truth... Or maybe at that time we as humans were not advanced enough to really grasp the true beginnnings of the Universe.

What ever it is Yes the bible is up to interpretation. But like my dad tells me you can only really Undertand the bible when You are learned and trained and have a relationship with God. Must seem silly i guess to aetheists.

aeric67 · May 2005

The second a deist starts to argue his or her point abstractedly, without referring to that conflicted symbolismic (that a word?) nightmare of a book, is the second I begin to listen.

To all deists out there... That is your first lesson when arguing with an atheist! Quickest way to be ignored is to start "thumping"...

Puoltry · May 2005

Everytime i look at how amazing my daughter is ive no doubt there is a god.

How could there not be?Just look in your kids eyes and explain how there couldnt be?

Dekron · May 2005

Originally posted by Egold

Originally posted by dekron

Originally posted by Vodalus
wheredoes it say that Adam and Eve (whose name was actually Chavah) were the only two people?
Adam and Eve are the only people mentioned in the bible as the ones created directly by god. God tells adam and eve to go populate the earth. This implies that they were alone. Now you are just trying to pull "what ifs" to support your argument. Christians can only base their beliefs on the bible, nothing else. Once you stray away from what is said in the bible, you lose all credibility.

but he's NOT straying from what's said in the bible, because he said that it doesn't say that adam and eve were the only people. It's more likely to assume than there WERE other people, because most likely cain didn't have sex with his mom.

By assuming that they are not the only ones is straying away from the bible. Genesis makes a very strong implication that they were the only ones god created, which means that they were alone. The only other text that may be otherwise is this. Cain kills Abel, Cain is sentenced by God, Cain whines to god that if any find him, then they shall kill him, god then threatens that if anyone touches cain, they will suffer as well.

This either (1)contradicts the story of creation, or (2)implies that there were indeed other humans, or other beings living on earth when god first created man. Which, if it is the latter, could mean a couple things. If there were other beings populating the earth when god created man that could mean (1)the earth was populated by other intelligent being by god before humans or (2) god did not create all humans on this planet and that there are multiple gods and the christian god is just one of them.

Jews are gods "chosen" people. God speaks of jews as "my people" but everyone else as gentiles or something else. God wanted the jews to convert gentiles to worship him. God said "do not put any other gods before me", implying that the world is polytheistic. The ancient Roman, Greek, and Norse gods competed for the people to worship them. How is the christian god any different?

Vodalus · May 2005

The ancient Roman, Greek, and Norse gods competed for the people to worship them. How is the christian god any different?

He is the only real God, the only one who sent His Son to die for our sin.

aeric67 · May 2005

"In a way, science can give us a reason for this resonance with nature and sense of its beauty: we feel a deep-seated union with the universe because we are indeed made of the same stuff."

"Science is able to provide the answers to many such fundamental mysteries. One of the largest roles of religion was to explain fundamental mysteries, also. However, religion merely offered fillers to keep the intellect satiated until the real answers could be found. Science, on the other hand, is what gives us the definitive, real answers. Many of the great "mysteries" of the past have been solved since science came into its own in the Rennaissance; for example, the sacred Kaaba stone of Islam is really a meteorite, and the heavens are propelled by gravity, not angels."

- Carl Sagan

Seldona · May 2005

It is called Unified String Theory. Do Google search on it sometime. I believe Nova has a very good online program explaining it.

No, I do not believe in some God. I believe that God is simply an expression of man's need to believe that there is something more behind this all. And I can respect that.

It is only when one that has to rely on FAITH declares absolute truth that I have a problem with. And when they start talking about EVERYONE living by their particular creed.

NO ONE has dibs on the truth. Have to be dead to recieve that little piece of information. And NO ONE should push thier beliefs on others.

Adreal · May 2005

god then threatens that if anyone touches cain, they will suffer as well.

My translation reads: The Lord replied, "They will not kill you, for I will give seven times your punishment to anyone who does."

It doesn't say that anyone who touches Cain will suffer. But if that is the truth of the matter, then Cain still could have had a wife, a child, and then the wife could have been greatly punished, etc. Anyway, it sounds to me like you're arguing that Cain could not have furthered humanity in procreation because of God's declaration. It doesn't seem that's the case to me.

Adreal · May 2005

However, religion merely offered fillers to keep the intellect satiated until the real answers could be found

What are the real answers?

Henryu · May 2005

Wow.. Definitely a topic of biblical proportions.

Dekron · May 2005

Originally posted by Vodalus
Some questions:

If God did not create the universe why are all the planets different, were they not all formed from the same ball of stuff? Should they ot therefore be made of similar stuff?

It's called gravity. Planets did form from, and do have primarily the same elements, however, they contain different portions. If you throw several ingredients in a mixing bowl, slightly mix it, and then make little balls of goop, you will have the same ingredients, but each ball of goop will have a different proportion of ingredients.

Can you name one clear prediciton of macroevolution that has proved true?

Evolution is mutation. Natural mutation is unpredictable, however, if created in a lab, it is predictable. One prime example is when scientists manipulated a rat's dna to grow a working human ear on its back. That was predictable.

Can you tell me when and how life learned to reproduce itself?

No one can. If anyone could supply this evidence then that would end all religious debates.

How and why did man evolve emotion?

Define emotion. Every animal shows some sort of emotion. A cat purring and rubbing against your leg indicates emotion. Parrots "love" their mate. When they find their mates, they stay with them for life. Is this considered emotion? Could this be considered moral?

Are you familiar with thre fact that the Hubble space telescope has found evidence of a young universe?

1. According to scientists calculations, if the universe is billions of years old, we should see around 7,000 supernovae remnants, Hubble has observed ~200, a number which suggests an age of ~7,000 years

2. The big bang theory predicts only proto-galaxies at the edges of the universe, and that there should be far less at the edges, Hubble has proven both to be false.

3. Scientists expected to see many Red Dwarfs, which are faint old stars, again proven wrong, only a handful of these exist.

Taken directly from Nasa's website. This is very, very ,very small portion of the uiverse, Those are galaxies seen there, not stars. Now, any logical thinker would see this and think "If god created the earth, and god only created man, why the hell would he create all of this?" Also, with the thousands of galaxies pictured here, can you truly say that we are alone in this universe. Also, the information you presented is no where to be found on Nasa's website.

CactusmanX · May 2005

Like I said nothing is exact nor certain both science and religion are framed on a belief that what is said is true

it is impossible to prove anything

IE, Do we exist?

Perhaps we are dead already

Perhaps we are nothing more than thoughts in someones head

We may not even be real

sounds abstract I know, but you can't prove or disprove it, nothing more than thoughts, it depends on what you believe

methane47 · May 2005

Evolution IS true.. But not how most of the world thinks of it.
It's called Technological Evolution. As the technology around us Gets better Humans evolve by getting rid of things we dont need and incorporating the brain power needed to use the Tools around us...

Just look at the traits of Humans... Cave-men? Denser, Larger, bones (which insists on more muscles); larger nostrils, flattened nose, larger eye sockets, smaller brain(smaller cavity), Natural immunity from some diseases. And then what happened? We got Clothes, tools, cars, microwaves, guns. And now? no need for denser bones, since we no longer have to fear other animals, no need for larger bones and more muscles because we dont need them to Hunt and catch our food, no need for larger nostrils and flattened nose, because we no longer need so much oxygen because we aren't doing very extrenuous things like fighting for food, We have smaller eye sockets.. why? cuz we dont need bigger eyes to see 50 miles away anymore, larger brain why? Well for those of us who use it [small jab at aetheists --> JOKING JOKING... i really was joking ::::22:: ], we need larger brains so as more capacity to use the tools we have invented.

Now I am no expert on Cave Men.... But I can safely explain away any differences we have with them Due to the technological advances that happened since then. I'm sure everyone can Definitely agree on Technological Evolution.... ::::38::

Drega · May 2005

Originally posted by CactusmanX

Like I said nothing is exact nor certain both science and religion are framed on a belief that what is said is true
it is impossible to prove anything
IE, Do we exist?
Perhaps we are dead already
Perhaps we are nothing more than thoughts in someones head
We may not even be real
sounds abstract I know, but you can't prove or disprove it, nothing more than thoughts, it depends on what you believe

What if we're all characters in a video game or MMO, and when we goto sleep is when our users 'log off'. I always liked that one, being a gamer and all.

aeric67 · May 2005

Originally posted by Adreal
However, religion merely offered fillers to keep the intellect satiated until the real answers could be found
What are the real answers?

That's the beauty of it. The real answers are always waiting for us to find them. Religion says they have all the answers. My Mommie always warned me about people who pretend to have all the answers... Then she'd take me to church on Sundays. Strange how that works, huh?

Science is flexible and can change at the drop of a hat. For religion to change, thousands must die first... History says so.

Dekron · May 2005

Originally posted by Adreal

Although I personaly find evolution much more convincing than adam and eve
Now what I'm about to state is my own opinion and take on the creation account. My version of the Bible states that the author of Genesis was Moses around 1420-1220 B.C. I don't know whether or not to believe this, but if Moses is the author, then he certainly had to get his source for the Creation Theory from someone or something other than himself or else he simply made it up. At any rate, since Moses was purportedly close to God, it was likely that God could have explained it to him. If this is the case, then God could have explained it to him in a straight-forward fashion or in a figurative fashion that would teach a lesson.

I am glad you brought this up. The story of Noah was in fact plagarised by Moses. I will agree that Moses lived, however, he was a liar. Ever hear the story of Giglamesh? It was written circa 2700BC and the tablets were believed to be kept in Egypt when moses was there. Read this excerpt from the story of Gilgamesh and tell me if you see any resemblence to the story of Noah:

Tablet 11

At this point, Gilgamesh realizes that he is talking to Utnapishtim, the Far-Away; he hadn't expected an immortal human to be ordinary and aged. He asks Utnapishtim how he received immortality, and Utnapishtim tells him the great secret hidden from humans: In the time before the Flood, there was a city, Shuruppak, on the banks of the Euphrates. There, the counsel of the gods held a secret meeting; they all resolved to destroy the world in a great flood. All the gods were under oath not to reveal this secret to any living thing, but Ea (one of the gods that created humanity) came to Utnapishtim's house and told the secret to the walls of Utnapishtim's house, thus not technically violating his oath to the rest of the gods. He advised the walls of Utnapishtim's house to build a great boat, its length as great as its breadth, to cover the boat, and to bring all living things into the boat. Utnapishtim gets straight to work and finishes the great boat by the new year. Utnapishtim then loads the boat with gold, silver, and all the living things of the earth, and launches the boat. Ea orders him into the boat and commands him to close the door behind him. The black clouds arrive, with the thunder god Adad rumbling within them; the earth splits like an earthenware pot, and all the light turns to darkness. The Flood is so great that even the gods are frightened:

The gods shook like beaten dogs, hiding in the far corners of heaven,
Ishtar screamed and wailed:
"The days of old have turned to stone:
We have decided evil things in our Assembly!
Why did we decide those evil things in our Assembly?
Why did we decide to destroy our people?
We have only just now created our beloved humans;
We now destroy them in the sea!"
All the gods wept and wailed along with her,
All the gods sat trembling, and wept.

The Flood lasts for seven days and seven nights, and finally light returns to the earth. Utnapishtim opens a window and the entire earth has been turned into a flat ocean; all humans have been turned to stone. Utnapishtim then falls to his knees and weeps.

Utnapishtim's boat comes to rest on the top of Mount Nimush; the boat lodges firmly on the mountain peak just below the surface of the ocean and remains there for seven days.

Dekron · May 2005

Originally posted by Adreal

Once you stray away from what is said in the bible, you lose all credibility.
Do I lose credibility in looking out at the world and its biological complexities and believing that it quite likely had to have some higher intellect to intervene and create biological life?
PS. Dekron, the Bible itself shows that those other than the followers of God can have the gift of prophecy (foretelling future events) as well.
PPS. I think I misunderstood what you said in my first statement, so that's my bad. Sorry.

What I meant was that the only tool that christians can use is what is in the bible. You can't tell me to go outside and claim the sky is blue because god made it that way. The sky is blue because the way the suns light refracts off of water droplets in the atmosphere. My point again was that the bible is the only thing that christians can use just as the Quran is the only thing muslims can use.

methane47 · May 2005

Originally posted by dekron
I am glad you brought this up. The story of Noah was in fact plagarised by Moses. I will agree that Moses lived, however, he was a liar. Ever hear the story of Giglamesh? It was written circa 2700BC and the tablets were believed to be kept in Egypt when moses was there. Read this excerpt from the story of Gilgamesh and tell me if you see any resemblence to the story of Noah:
Tablet 11
At this point, Gilgamesh realizes that he is talking to Utnapishtim, the Far-Away; he hadn't expected an immortal human to be ordinary and aged. He asks Utnapishtim how he received immortality, and Utnapishtim tells him the great secret hidden from humans: In the time before the Flood, there was a city, Shuruppak, on the banks of the Euphrates. There, the counsel of the gods held a secret meeting; they all resolved to destroy the world in a great flood. All the gods were under oath not to reveal this secret to any living thing, but Ea (one of the gods that created humanity) came to Utnapishtim's house and told the secret to the walls of Utnapishtim's house, thus not technically violating his oath to the rest of the gods. He advised the walls of Utnapishtim's house to build a great boat, its length as great as its breadth, to cover the boat, and to bring all living things into the boat. Utnapishtim gets straight to work and finishes the great boat by the new year. Utnapishtim then loads the boat with gold, silver, and all the living things of the earth, and launches the boat. Ea orders him into the boat and commands him to close the door behind him. The black clouds arrive, with the thunder god Adad rumbling within them; the earth splits like an earthenware pot, and all the light turns to darkness. The Flood is so great that even the gods are frightened:
The gods shook like beaten dogs, hiding in the far corners of heaven,Ishtar screamed and wailed:"The days of old have turned to stone:We have decided evil things in our Assembly!Why did we decide those evil things in our Assembly?Why did we decide to destroy our people?We have only just now created our beloved humans;We now destroy them in the sea!"All the gods wept and wailed along with her,All the gods sat trembling, and wept.
The Flood lasts for seven days and seven nights, and finally light returns to the earth. Utnapishtim opens a window and the entire earth has been turned into a flat ocean; all humans have been turned to stone. Utnapishtim then falls to his knees and weeps.
Utnapishtim's boat comes to rest on the top of Mount Nimush; the boat lodges firmly on the mountain peak just below the surface of the ocean and remains there for seven days.

If that is true... Then tell me Dekron Who did the babylonians Plagerize their story from? Most of the religions and Cultures in this world Have some sort of reference to the Great Flood.. And Scientists have found Sand and sea shells on the tops of mountains. The very fact that so many poeple refer to it... proves it's existance plus the help of those trusty scientists ::::38:: Remember Noah wasn't the only person In the world when it was flooded ::::28::
Maybe they are different recounts of the same story.

EDIT: One thing I do know is that they are almost polar opposite in the way the world works in the two stories. In enuma elish the Gods Cowar scared of the Flood, THe Bible God sends it. In Enuma Elish Uptnampistim built the Boat of his own cleverness and Design. In the Bible Noah was led and instructed by God. In Enuma Elish After the flood the gods Festered over the smell of the meat and it's sweat savor. In the bible God was disgusted by how the humans acted when they gave their sacrifice of meat. Because that was no way to give thanks. In Enuma Elish it makes the Gods seem like People normal humans who fear, and hunger, and get mad, and Hate, lie, and cheat. In the bible YahWh sticks out as above all humans.

Vodalus · May 2005

Originally posted by dekron
Originally posted by Adreal
Although I personaly find evolution much more convincing than adam and eve
Now what I'm about to state is my own opinion and take on the creation account. My version of the Bible states that the author of Genesis was Moses around 1420-1220 B.C. I don't know whether or not to believe this, but if Moses is the author, then he certainly had to get his source for the Creation Theory from someone or something other than himself or else he simply made it up. At any rate, since Moses was purportedly close to God, it was likely that God could have explained it to him. If this is the case, then God could have explained it to him in a straight-forward fashion or in a figurative fashion that would teach a lesson.
I am glad you brought this up. The story of Noah was in fact plagarised by Moses. I will agree that Moses lived, however, he was a liar. Ever hear the story of Giglamesh? It was written circa 2700BC and the tablets were believed to be kept in Egypt when moses was there. Read this excerpt from the story of Gilgamesh and tell me if you see any resemblence to the story of Noah:
Tablet 11
At this point, Gilgamesh realizes that he is talking to Utnapishtim, the Far-Away; he hadn't expected an immortal human to be ordinary and aged. He asks Utnapishtim how he received immortality, and Utnapishtim tells him the great secret hidden from humans: In the time before the Flood, there was a city, Shuruppak, on the banks of the Euphrates. There, the counsel of the gods held a secret meeting; they all resolved to destroy the world in a great flood. All the gods were under oath not to reveal this secret to any living thing, but Ea (one of the gods that created humanity) came to Utnapishtim's house and told the secret to the walls of Utnapishtim's house, thus not technically violating his oath to the rest of the gods. He advised the walls of Utnapishtim's house to build a great boat, its length as great as its breadth, to cover the boat, and to bring all living things into the boat. Utnapishtim gets straight to work and finishes the great boat by the new year. Utnapishtim then loads the boat with gold, silver, and all the living things of the earth, and launches the boat. Ea orders him into the boat and commands him to close the door behind him. The black clouds arrive, with the thunder god Adad rumbling within them; the earth splits like an earthenware pot, and all the light turns to darkness. The Flood is so great that even the gods are frightened:
The gods shook like beaten dogs, hiding in the far corners of heaven,Ishtar screamed and wailed:"The days of old have turned to stone:We have decided evil things in our Assembly!Why did we decide those evil things in our Assembly?Why did we decide to destroy our people?We have only just now created our beloved humans;We now destroy them in the sea!"All the gods wept and wailed along with her,All the gods sat trembling, and wept.
The Flood lasts for seven days and seven nights, and finally light returns to the earth. Utnapishtim opens a window and the entire earth has been turned into a flat ocean; all humans have been turned to stone. Utnapishtim then falls to his knees and weeps.
Utnapishtim's boat comes to rest on the top of Mount Nimush; the boat lodges firmly on the mountain peak just below the surface of the ocean and remains there for seven days.

Funny you should mention that. Genesis is the only book in Torah (the first five books of the Bible) that does not claim that Moses wrote it.

Nice try though.

Dekron · May 2005

Originally posted by Vodalus

The ancient Roman, Greek, and Norse gods competed for the people to worship them. How is the christian god any different?

He is the only real God, the only one who sent His Son to die for our sin.

Every christian states that but fails to see that the jewish people are the ones he died for, that god was protecting and that god was speaking of. Another difficult reason to accept christianity is that if one does, they are submitting that they are a second rate being in the eyes of god. The bible states that the jews are his people and that they primarily come first.

Dekron · May 2005

Originally posted by Adreal

god then threatens that if anyone touches cain, they will suffer as well.
My translation reads: The Lord replied, "They will not kill you, for I will give seven times your punishment to anyone who does."
It doesn't say that anyone who touches Cain will suffer. But if that is the truth of the matter, then Cain still could have had a wife, a child, and then the wife could have been greatly punished, etc. Anyway, it sounds to me like you're arguing that Cain could not have furthered humanity in procreation because of God's declaration. It doesn't seem that's the case to me.

By touching I meant in a harmful way. I was, of course, paraphrasing.

Adreal · May 2005

"If god created the earth, and god only created man, why the hell would he create all of this?"

Why would he create angels before man? If we're viewing it now, then couldn't God have created it, knowing that we would view it today? I think some things in this world and in the universe God created to teach us a lesson. One of these lessons, I think, is how very small we are.

Religion says they have all the answers.

Perhaps not all the answers, but some things are certainly explained. I think in Proverbs (again, sorry because my memory's not the best), it states something to the effect that it is God's will or duty or whatever to hide things and for kings to seek them. That is just the general idea of the passage. Not word for word and I may have made an error, but if you get the point, then that is all that matters.

about people who pretend to have all the answers

Any human being who pretends to have all the answers likely doesn't, but there are always exceptions to probabilities.

Science is flexible and can change at the drop of a hat. For religion to change, thousands must die first... History says so.

I'm sure most atheists would agree that the Bible is flexible since they say it is left up to interpretation. There comes a point, though, in which one interpretation seems more logical than another. Just because thousands choose to kill off anyone who thinks differently than them doesn't mean that they are correctly following their set of beliefs or even defending them. Perhaps the person with the opposing view is right and one's beliefs must be adjusted or dropped entirely and changed. It just depends on your perspective.

Vodalus · May 2005

Originally posted by dekron
Originally posted by Vodalus The ancient Roman, Greek, and Norse gods competed for the people to worship them. How is the christian god any different?He is the only real God, the only one who sent His Son to die for our sin.Every christian states that but fails to see that the jewish people are the ones he died for, that god was protecting and that god was speaking of. Another difficult reason to accept christianity is that if one does, they are submitting that they are a second rate being in the eyes of god. The bible states that the jews are his people and that they primarily come first.

Again, you do not know the scriptures.

Gal. 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

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Tablet 11

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