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Do you believe in a God
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Now, here is the truth about II Timothy 3:16. If you don't believe any of the Bible is true, then I cannot use it to convince you, plain and simple. Now the difference between your story and Moses is that Moses was a beliver in God. He actually saw God Himself. He talked to God and God talked back to him. He does seem like a likely candidate to right a book by God's inspiration. The rest of the men who wrote the Bible also had relationships with God, though not all like Moses did.
Bah! thanks for remindin me I meant to respond.
I disagree. If you believe in absolute morality (for arguments sake we will assume the term absolute morality to refer to the precepts set forth in the Bible), this means that you submit to God. It does not mean that you give up free will, you can choose to walk away from God whenever you want.
You are in fact excersizing you free will in deciding to follow and obey God.
On the other hand, to say "there are no moral absolutes" is contradictory. For the statement to be true, thewre must be at least one absolute (that there are no absolutes). Kinda like saying "This statement is false"
Linux is free.....if your time costs nothing.
This is the kind of thing that disgusts me about religion.
It's bad enough that you had to deal with losing your grandfather, but because of the fairy stories you've been conditioned into believing you're left wondering if he's now trapped in eternal damnation.
The people who filled your mind with such outrageous trash should be utterly ashamed of themselves.
I agree with firemagic on that one...states a good point
But suppose it is a legitimate concern?
You see, thats the thing, we aren't trying to judge people or make them feel bad. If you believed your fellow man was in danger of suffering eternally, you would be a total jerk not to do something about it. Like watching a baby crawl into oncoming traffic and doing nothing.
Linux is free.....if your time costs nothing.
You missed my point. People claim to hear voices all the time. People claim to see apirations all the time. Even children have imaginary friends. In my story, jack could have been going crazy, he could have been on drugs or he could have truely heard a voice. No one knows. But if someone claimed that today, they would be given a psychological exam and institutionalized.
And might I add...This is a new record. No religious discussion has ever lasted this long on the boards!
I am sorry about your mother, but the Bible actually says something about this. It says that "man is appointed once to die." Everyone will die. It is a fact. I trust you know about Genesis and Adam and Eve. The summary of that story is we (man-kind) screwed up. Because of this, death came into the world. But if what you say about your mother is correct, you can see her again. She will be in heaven with the Lord. If you accept Christ as your savious, you will see her in heaven when you die. Wouldn't it be worth it to have a chance to see her again, even if it is wrong?
I'm sorry if this hurts you. All you need to do is ask me to stop and I will.
It says that "man is appointed once to die." Everyone will die. It is a fact.
Sometimes I'm not sure whether the Bible, when it speaks of death, is speaking of spiritual (ultimate) or physical (temporary) death. Christ, before he possibly resurrected a child, said that she was not dead but merely asleep. I think other verses in the Bible have led me in the past to believe that physical death is often referred to as a "sleep" and that the death after resurrection is the ultimate death. Anyone clear this up?
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Anyone who has died is not in heaven, nor is in hell.
Yeah, I was just wondering if Vodalus (if he is the one that understands Greek and/or Hebrew) could clear this up by telling me if there are different words for the ultimate death and for this physical death or sleep? If there were, then it would be easier to see where it speaks of ultimate death (what people call spiritual death) and when it speaks of physical death. You can see from another post that I had that I believe that we basically rot in a grave after we die until the "appointed time" to rise.
PS. I mean that's largely my belief. I also think that there are exceptions to the "rule".
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
That is very true, but this is a generation unlike all others, farther away from the truth of the Bible than ever before. But think about it. If God were to give someone a message, wouldn't he be sure that someone listened to it? What you stated about a psychological exam is actually close to what some Christians are going through today.
Lets take China as an example. I heard today that the church in China is losing 20000 people a month because they are being killed. No, I did not add too many zeroes. I heard 20000. I cannot verify this as it came by word of mouth. However, the church in China is growing in membership rapidly. Now tell me something. How are 10s of thousands of people being converted each month if this is not true? It doesn't even seem possible to me. And why would 120000 thousand people a year give up there lives for something that they aren't sure is true? This is just in China remember.
Also, upon further thought, I might be mistaken about the 20000 thousand. It might be 2000. I am not completely sure, because, as I said, it was by word of mouth. Are the Chinese people just extremely gullible? No. They have not progressed as far as most of the rest of the world into aethism and agnosticism. They are not devout religious belivers, which is obvious by the fact that they changed their religion. So, when threatened with death, why would they not renounce thier beliefs? Now, there are other religions that have people who do the same thing, give up their life for their god(s). But for so many to be willing to do that, it amazes me.
In a song that i heard. God gives and takes away. So when your parents or your grandparents or anyone one that you love dearly leaves you. You must understand that God has a purpose and that he took away your loved one for a reason.
One thing that i may add is i could not see how anyone could think that there is no higher being. I dont understand how a serious of accedents could bring life to humans, and everything in this world. I cant understand how evolution made the earth be placed in the exact spot that the earth needs to be placed. I dont see how the microscopic cells do what they need to do by a series of accidents.
Again i still love this quote and it is soooo true that i fell upon
the greatest trickery that satan did to humanity was making us believe that he didnt exist
You must understand that God has a purpose and that he took away your loved one for a reason.
People die because of a thing called sin. Sometimes God may deem it necessary that part of his creation be "cut off", but largely I don't believe that God kills people but the introduction of death into the world does. However, God created us and he can do anything he wants with us.
I cant understand how evolution made the earth be placed in the exact spot that the earth needs to be placed.
That's because you're looking at it from one perspective. You think that every condition was formulated (as I do) to suit us rather than the belief that we are simply an outcome of every condition being right by chance to support life.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Another question to believers. And this is a "what-if".
What if aliens landed and made contact with earth tomorrow. Would your belief in god change? Even if these other creatures had a completely different idea in religion?
Originally posted by firemagic
Once again, let me explain. Reread the following sentences over and over until you understand them:
Until you can provide an iota of evidence that there is a god, we can conclude that there is not a god.
You can't provide an iota of evidence that there is a god, so we can conclude that there is not a god.
I already provided the evidence, you just fail to recognize it because of your own personal partiality. Maybe you should tap those shoes harder dorothy...
Although it seems the information you want, is from an atheistic, secular scientist saying "There is a God! Because I said so!" Because the only thing you take credible is arbitrary theories that, because they are arbitrary beliefs, will change on the drop of a dime when they are proven wrong.
I could work by your logic, and say you are non-existant because you lack the evidence to prove your existence that is fitting to my own personal partiality, throwing out the fact that there are post's here that seem to be made by a sentient being, but I could just discredit them because I don't agree it's any proof at all.
You could then say that because you talk, that is proof of your existence in itself, and then ask me to prove that you don't exist. I could then ignore your questions, and keep on saying that you have no proof. But then you'd say the proof is already presented; I would then just turn a blind eye because it doesn't fit in with what I'd consider proof. Thus making my logic, that if something lacks of what i'd consider fitting proof; proof that something doesn't exist.
Which would then make me believe that I am a god, and everything is a figment of my imagination.
What an interesting parable don't you think? You should concentrate long and hard on it...
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
*scans your text for proof that god exists*
Nope. Another mildly diverting diatribe, but again you've failed to actually say anything relevant.
I understand the point you're clumsily trying to make though - that there will never be any definite proof for anything, but if we go by that way of thinking then everything simultanously is and isn't true at every single point in time, ever.
In a nutshell, that's not how rational, well-adjusted people go about thinking.
The best evidence you've been able to produce to suggest the existence of a god has been laughable. You cite a collection of ancient papers that could, at a stretch of the imagination, foretell things that may or may not have happened as described by the people who interpret them. Not good enough.
Your argument seems to be "You can't prove that god doesn't exist, therefore I conclude that he does", and frankly a small child could see the flaw in such a weak argument (assuming he wasn't surrounded by mind-sucking religious drones such as the people responsible for your shockingly skewed worldview).
A university professor challenged his students with this question. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
"Did God create everything that exists?"
A student bravely replied, "Yes, He did!"
The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists. And according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."
The professor was quite pleased with himself, and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the faith in God is a myth.
Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question, professor?"
"Of course," replied the professor.
The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"
"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists! Have you never been cold?"
The young man replied, "In fact, sir, cold does NOT exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is, in reality, the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy. Absolute zero (-460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat. All matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."
The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"
The professor responded, "Of course it does."
The student replied, "Once again you are wrong, sir. Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is, in reality, the absence of light. We can study light, but not darkness. In fact, we can use <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."
Finally, the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"
Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold -- a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
I'm not sure if this will show you any proof or not, but it is something I would like to throw out there. Also, here is something I will tell you to prove to you that a God exists. You exist. You couldn't exist unless your parents had you as a child. The same for your parent and their parents, etc. Now eventually you would get to a point where there are no other beings alive. Now, this would be before what some evolutionists call the big bang. They say that all that matter is right there in one spot. How did it get there?
Just so I don't confuse anyone, I am not saying that the theory of evolution is true.
I think the admins should end this topic before it gets ugly. Everybody has a right to believe in whatever they want. We arnt going to change each others minds. This topic is kind of like going to India and walking out on a busy street with a cow and kill it in front of 2million indians .....Its not going to end well.
On Time? On Target? Never Quit?
You're the one who sounds confused. It's like you suddenly realised at the end that you'd just described evolution and then thought "Oops! I'm not supposed to believe in evolution... I'd better put in a disclaimer.".
To answer your question, we have no idea how life originated. We aren't advanced enough as a species to comprehend such a problem, and this is one of the main things that drive us.
Who are we? Where do we come from?
Some people choose to accept whatever the easiest to swallow answer is that they can find, like for example "An invisible man created us as the most important beings in the universe on a tiny planet revolving around a small star in the corner of the galaxy, with roughly a million other species on the planet who he put there for our amusement."
Other people are less pompous, pig-headed and self-important. They have the guts to accept the harsh fact that one day they will stop breathing and die, and that their existence will come to an end. They prefer to accept the world they live in on its own terms and enjoy the one life they have, instead of cheapening human life by pretending this is the crappy bit before you die and go to eternal sunshine and joy.
Here you go... A massive list of biblical contradictions for you to conveniently ignore.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Not rebuking you on the argument, but those definitions are relative. It could be the opposite that heat does not exist, only absence of cold and light does not exist, only the absence of darkness.
You touched upon an interesting subject in philosophy, perception. It is a very interesting read, and many, many philosophers have discussed this.
ROFL. You really are a special case.
