Maybe I'm seeing things wrong but this way, especially the defensive stats could promote dividing people into pvp and pve builds to a high degree, right?
Mitigation from toughness being more useful in pve in general; a pure tanking skill giving anyone healing a much easier job by toughness negating high amounts of damage done by boss attacks as well as damage from multiple smaller sources.
For pve vitality is only needed to have enough buffer to withstand single boss attacks / to keep standing long enough for healers to keep you up.
While large amounts of vitality is generally a great thing to have in pvp, with more balanced incoming damage, more one versus one and one versus two scenario's and not always being able to rely on heals.
Power and accuracy offers a problem as well. Going for consistent damage output with power could become totally obsolete if accuracy ends up giving you higher dps and a chance on some nice burst damage in pvp.
Depending on how boss agro mechanics pan out, doing a lot of criticals for dps players could create an agro issue, promoting them to spec power builds instead and gimping themselves for pvp at the same time.
All in all I'm not convinced to keep stats down to only four. It does make things a lot more simple without solving build dilemma's and it makes it less of a character build science which to me is fun and rewarding to get "a degree in".
But a lot of this is of course speculation. Will be interesting to see how it really pans out.
Streamlining is certainly not "dumbing down". In most games only 25% of your stats are relevant to you in any meaningful way that you want to raise. Rather than have these class specific stats, they streamline it so every stat is important, and trying to balance them so each are equally important for the calculation (which will help me win a fight), but differ in the choice of HOW to win that fight. This offers more choices than "if you are a wizard, pump int", and more choices make the game deeper.
I am not sold on GW2 yet, but will try it. Most importantly I will try it with an open mind.
I think this theoretical pidgeonhole will be mitigated by weapon-switching. In a way, everyone will be in the same subset of self-sufficient players, but gear quality will influence a propensity towards offense or defense. Support will likely be frontline, so it stands to reason that extra survivability, no matter your class, will be important given that most mobs will likely have an arc of damage rather than a raw single-target.
Moreover, they're talking about stats here. The stuff you put points into to define your character and not necessarily gear. Gear will probably have modifiers similar to HCR or zealous that will provide the changes that heerobya suggested.
I like how this attribute system offers you a lot of variety in gameplay. Im just a little worried about how GW2 is turning more towards a gearbased game. I actually like the original Guild Wars' approach to gear. Where more expensive or more difficult to obtain gear is just better looking.
So I hope that PVP in GW2 doesnt allow too much gear difference (in effectiveness). People should win based on skill and teamplay (like in Guild Wars), not because their better gear gives them an advantage.
I like how this attribute system offers you a lot of variety in gameplay. Im just a little worried about how GW2 is turning more towards a gearbased game. I actually like the original Guild Wars' approach to gear. Where more expensive or more difficult to obtain gear is just better looking.
So I hope that PVP in GW2 doesnt allow too much gear difference (in effectiveness). People should win based on skill and teamplay (like in Guild Wars), not because their better gear gives them an advantage.
For PVE I dont care.
That was a worry that was brought up on GW2guru. I highly doubt it will turn into a gear-based game. The devs stated that you can get viable armor through any method but you have to remember that with 80 levels now instead of 20 that armor has to have increasing values at higher levels or else it might as well be statless skins.
Also for the competetive 5v5 PvP you don't get to wear your own armor or use your own weapons so it is completely dependent upon skill. WvWvW is a different story seeing as you won't be at the same level as your opponents.
I like how this attribute system offers you a lot of variety in gameplay. Im just a little worried about how GW2 is turning more towards a gearbased game. I actually like the original Guild Wars' approach to gear. Where more expensive or more difficult to obtain gear is just better looking.
So I hope that PVP in GW2 doesnt allow too much gear difference (in effectiveness). People should win based on skill and teamplay (like in Guild Wars), not because their better gear gives them an advantage.
For PVE I dont care.
That was a worry that was brought up on GW2guru. I highly doubt it will turn into a gear-based game. The devs stated that you can get viable armor through any method but you have to remember that with 80 levels now instead of 20 that armor has to have increasing values at higher levels or else it might as well be statless skins.
Also for the competetive 5v5 PvP you don't get to wear your own armor or use your own weapons so it is completely dependent upon skill. WvWvW is a different story seeing as you won't be at the same level as your opponents.
Oh, the 5v5 part is good to hear. For PVE I dont mind if its gearbased. With WvWvW I dont mind it that much either. Its probably all about completing objectives in WvWvW with sides that always are different in numbers, and hopefully chaotic in a good way
Maybe I'm seeing things wrong but this way, especially the defensive stats could promote dividing people into pvp and pve builds to a high degree, right?
Mitigation from toughness being more useful in pve in general; a pure tanking skill giving anyone healing a much easier job by toughness negating high amounts of damage done by boss attacks as well as damage from multiple smaller sources.
For pve vitality is only needed to have enough buffer to withstand single boss attacks / to keep standing long enough for healers to keep you up.
While large amounts of vitality is generally a great thing to have in pvp, with more balanced incoming damage, more one versus one and one versus two scenario's and not always being able to rely on heals.
Power and accuracy offers a problem as well. Going for consistent damage output with power could become totally obsolete if accuracy ends up giving you higher dps and a chance on some nice burst damage in pvp.
Depending on how boss agro mechanics pan out, doing a lot of criticals for dps players could create an agro issue, promoting them to spec power builds instead and gimping themselves for pvp at the same time.
All in all I'm not convinced to keep stats down to only four. It does make things a lot more simple without solving build dilemma's and it makes it less of a character build science which to me is fun and rewarding to get "a degree in".
But a lot of this is of course speculation. Will be interesting to see how it really pans out.
Just to clarify something with you... there will be no healers in GW2 and the closest thing you will have to one, is for a fellow player to provide you with an opportunity to self-heal. There are no targeted heals, only AOE health regeneration like "Healing Rain". Also the self-heals and health-regen skills/abilities all seem to work by recovering a set % of health, so a lvl 2 Ranger with 300 health and a lvl 22 Ranger with 1,500+ will both recover xx% of their health with their healing skill, not xx amount. So that pretty much debunks your main issue with vitality and I would love to go on debunking your other speculative claims (¬_¬) but I'd rather close it with this point.
The thing is ArenaNet wants us to play the game how we want to play, by providing us with the tools to customize our playstyle (professions, weapon sets, attributes, traits, etc.). So you'll basically customize your attributes to compliment the rest of your build and I see the attributes, so far, working by asking yourself simple questions each time you level...
- Should I add some Power since it increases the base damage I deal?
- Should I add some Precision since it increases my crit. % chance, which certain skill traits may rely on?
- Should I add some Toughness since I will be able to take sustained damage, for longer?
- Should I add some Vitality since I will have a larger health pool, thus being able to take bigger hits?
It's all about how you choose to play the game. Like if you're a Thief and you're not confident in your ability to avoid damage, then you best stack on the vitality for the next couple levels.
Dumbing down the game makes it "deep"? Interesting logic.
They went from 6 stats to 4 stats.
All they did was consolidate all the stats that increased attack power (Intelligence, agility, strength), and made them a single stat called power.
Then, they edited the other 3 stats, and made them so they were useful to all classes, which meant that there are 4 viable choices for each class, which means 4 meaningful possibilities.
Effectively, all that means is that instead of finding a 'strength' dagger and being annoyed because your mage can't use it, now you just find a 'power' dagger.
There was no extra complexity in having two extra stats, it just meant it divided the amount of useful weapons by 3, and created extra stats that were literally labeled on the GW2 character sheet 'These attributes are not useful for your character'.
That isn't dumbing down the game, that's just pruning stats that really were creating a lot of excess useless items, and weren't really contributing.
Fake complexity doesn't help. Would you think the game would be more complex if there were 32 stats, and 4 of them were useful for each class in the game, with the other 28 not useful at all? :T
There most certainly is more complexity in having ALL sats on weapons and armour.First of all it allows GW2 to make LESS items,so lazy and cheaper approach.
I should point out using FFXi as an example is a little tainted because FFXI does utilize the play all class on the same player,but again a better in depth design .
Using FFXI for example,you might find a weapon with stats not related but that class doesn't mean it can't be useful,as it ties into other classes.The point is that you make ALL sorts of combinations of weapon attributes,this DOES add to depth,GW2 design is removing depth.
In FFXI you might have a bow with MND and DEX on it,so it might be useful to a Thief for the DEX[Sneak Attack],and to that same Thiefs ranged attacks if using for example a Holy bolt setup for the MND.TONS and tons of combinations and usefullness if the developer wants to put out the effort or in depth design.
Also one stat in FFXI is not tied down to one meaning,AGI as used in the article example has many uses.AGI can be used for ranged dmg,or ranged accuracy,or a Thief's Trick Attack,it is also used in evasion calculations and when formulated with the enemies Dexterity ,calculates the chance to critical.
So using just the AGI example,FFXI has almost as much depth from one stat as all 4 in GW2.
Also some weapons in FFXI utilize more than one attribute as a modifier,so just having POWER for example is only one stat with no modifier,seems obvious GW2 is going for less and easier,perhaps they are trying to rush this game out.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Dumbing down the game makes it "deep"? Interesting logic.
They went from 6 stats to 4 stats.
All they did was consolidate all the stats that increased attack power (Intelligence, agility, strength), and made them a single stat called power.
Then, they edited the other 3 stats, and made them so they were useful to all classes, which meant that there are 4 viable choices for each class, which means 4 meaningful possibilities.
Effectively, all that means is that instead of finding a 'strength' dagger and being annoyed because your mage can't use it, now you just find a 'power' dagger.
There was no extra complexity in having two extra stats, it just meant it divided the amount of useful weapons by 3, and created extra stats that were literally labeled on the GW2 character sheet 'These attributes are not useful for your character'.
That isn't dumbing down the game, that's just pruning stats that really were creating a lot of excess useless items, and weren't really contributing.
Fake complexity doesn't help. Would you think the game would be more complex if there were 32 stats, and 4 of them were useful for each class in the game, with the other 28 not useful at all? :T
There most certainly is more complexity in having ALL sats on weapons and armour.First of all it allows GW2 to make LESS items,so lazy and cheaper approach.
Using FFXI for example,you might find a weapon with stats not related but that class doesn't mean it can't be useful,as it ties into other classes.The point is that you make ALL sorts of combinations of weapon attributes,this DOES add to depth,GW2 design is removing depth.
In FFXI you might have a bow with MND and DEX on it,so it might be useful to a Thief for the DEX[Sneak Attack],and to that same Thiefs ranged attacks if using for example a Holy bolt setup for the MND.TONS and tons of combinations and usefullness if the developer wants to put out the effort or in depth design.
Also one stat in FFXI is not tied down to one meaning,AGI as used in the article example has many uses.AGI can be used for ranged dmg,or ranged accuracy,or a Thief's Trick Attack,it is also used in evasion calculations and when formulated with the enemies Dexterity ,calculates the chance to critical.
So using just the AGI example,FFXI has almost as much depth from one stat as all 4 in GW2.
Also some weapons in FFXI utilize more than one attribute as a modifier,so just having POWER for example is only one stat with no modifier,seems obvious GW2 is going for less and easier,perhaps they are trying to rush this game out.
GW2 isn't removing depth. It's removing useless clutter that is unnecessary.
No MMORPG I have ever played has gotten the system just right where the people who kill slower have enough of a decrease in downtime or increase in survivability etc. to justify NOT going the "dps spec" for leveling up.
The problem with your concern is that leveling up is not the point of GW2. Between sidekicking between players, scaling Dynamic Events, being scaled up or down based on the area you're in, and the plateaued leveling curve, not only does ANet not particularly care if someone wants to brute force through to level cap, but such players will find that it doesn't particularly matter in the long run. The content is not at the endgame, it's everywhere. So, let them "dps spec" if they want to; they'll find it doesn't grant them the advantages they think it will.
Dumbing down the game makes it "deep"? Interesting logic.
They went from 6 stats to 4 stats.
All they did was consolidate all the stats that increased attack power (Intelligence, agility, strength), and made them a single stat called power.
Then, they edited the other 3 stats, and made them so they were useful to all classes, which meant that there are 4 viable choices for each class, which means 4 meaningful possibilities.
Effectively, all that means is that instead of finding a 'strength' dagger and being annoyed because your mage can't use it, now you just find a 'power' dagger.
There was no extra complexity in having two extra stats, it just meant it divided the amount of useful weapons by 3, and created extra stats that were literally labeled on the GW2 character sheet 'These attributes are not useful for your character'.
That isn't dumbing down the game, that's just pruning stats that really were creating a lot of excess useless items, and weren't really contributing.
Fake complexity doesn't help. Would you think the game would be more complex if there were 32 stats, and 4 of them were useful for each class in the game, with the other 28 not useful at all? :T
There most certainly is more complexity in having ALL sats on weapons and armour.First of all it allows GW2 to make LESS items,so lazy and cheaper approach.
Using FFXI for example,you might find a weapon with stats not related but that class doesn't mean it can't be useful,as it ties into other classes.The point is that you make ALL sorts of combinations of weapon attributes,this DOES add to depth,GW2 design is removing depth.
In FFXI you might have a bow with MND and DEX on it,so it might be useful to a Thief for the DEX[Sneak Attack],and to that same Thiefs ranged attacks if using for example a Holy bolt setup for the MND.TONS and tons of combinations and usefullness if the developer wants to put out the effort or in depth design.
Also one stat in FFXI is not tied down to one meaning,AGI as used in the article example has many uses.AGI can be used for ranged dmg,or ranged accuracy,or a Thief's Trick Attack,it is also used in evasion calculations and when formulated with the enemies Dexterity ,calculates the chance to critical.
So using just the AGI example,FFXI has almost as much depth from one stat as all 4 in GW2.
Also some weapons in FFXI utilize more than one attribute as a modifier,so just having POWER for example is only one stat with no modifier,seems obvious GW2 is going for less and easier,perhaps they are trying to rush this game out.
What you don't seem to note is that GW2 is a totally different game from FF11. GW2 doesn't rely on dice rolls to calculate dodge chances therefore having agility is a waste of space, FF11 does so it makes sense for that game to have agility as a stat. Fake complexity is not complexity that's what is called a headache.
Another thing you fail to note is that one of GW2's main mechanics is weapon swapping and trying to do that with 6 stats is a hassle especially because a Warrior who wants to switch from a bow to a sword and shield mid-battle won't be able to do so effectively due to the fact that his attributes are spread too thin (between Strenght (melee) and Agility (ranged)). On the other hand a caster class will be able to switch their weapons without needing to change their stats because the only thing they need for spell damage is Intelligence which makes the whole thing a bit uneven and pigeon holes players into using just one weapon set effectively and the other weapons as just side-arms that do nothing. That is not what Anet wants therefore they have simplified the attribute system to a point so that every profession can weapon swap effectively without being gimped.
Anything that promotes greater variety of gameplay within your class and weapon choice is great news to me, but then again, I'm not the kind of player that likes lots of restrictions. I really, really like where ArenaNet's heads are at and will support them even though they are in league with the devil that is NCSoft.
Support them in what way, this Alot wonders.
As in, buy their game despite the fact that some of the proceeds will go to that despicable company called NCSoft.
I *do* actually think the current revised stat system is dumbing it down. That's not necessarily a show-stopper for me. I'm more interested in what the gameplay is like... if it's good, then I'll buy. Sure, I wish the system had a little more depth but if it's decent and fun, I'll give it a shot.
There most certainly is more complexity in having ALL sats on weapons and armour.First of all it allows GW2 to make LESS items,so lazy and cheaper approach.
I should point out using FFXi as an example is a little tainted because FFXI does utilize the play all class on the same player,but again a better in depth design .
Using FFXI for example,you might find a weapon with stats not related but that class doesn't mean it can't be useful,as it ties into other classes.The point is that you make ALL sorts of combinations of weapon attributes,this DOES add to depth,GW2 design is removing depth.
In FFXI you might have a bow with MND and DEX on it,so it might be useful to a Thief for the DEX[Sneak Attack],and to that same Thiefs ranged attacks if using for example a Holy bolt setup for the MND.TONS and tons of combinations and usefullness if the developer wants to put out the effort or in depth design.
Also one stat in FFXI is not tied down to one meaning,AGI as used in the article example has many uses.AGI can be used for ranged dmg,or ranged accuracy,or a Thief's Trick Attack,it is also used in evasion calculations and when formulated with the enemies Dexterity ,calculates the chance to critical.
So using just the AGI example,FFXI has almost as much depth from one stat as all 4 in GW2.
Also some weapons in FFXI utilize more than one attribute as a modifier,so just having POWER for example is only one stat with no modifier,seems obvious GW2 is going for less and easier,perhaps they are trying to rush this game out.
Oh here is a thought; it could also mean that they can make more items that are useful to the professions that are going to use them. Instead of spending time creating stuff that only a small percentage will use, and having a bunch of clutter floating around the game.
I also what to know how having stats on a 2 handed sword, a sword design for a warrior, that a warrior will never use makes the world more in-depth. So apparently having Blacksmiths in a game world that are idiots and that are making stuff that is useless to the people they are designing the weapon for, is more sought after. I thought blacksmiths that made weapons were supposed to be masters of their craft, after all if I was going into battle I would not buy a weapon from an apprentice weapon smith. So how is a Master Blacksmith making a weapon for a warrior that no warrior would ever use, more in-depth. That to me is more shallow, and stupid! That is like a blacksmith in our world, making a sword with blades on the handle that stab you ever time you swing the sword. Hey it adds more depth to the world, since it adds more verity; by the logic that clutter makes a more in depth world this would totally make sense. Or here is a thought maybe a master blacksmith would not be that stupid, and he would take into account who he was designing for. Let’s see a magic user in my world does not use a great sword, nor does a thief, or Guardian; so why would I make a great sword for them. I wouldn’t I would make a sword for the people that would use it.
I am sorry but having weapons with useless stats does not make a world more in depth, it makes it more silly and stupid. I guess if you like all the blacksmith NPCs to be silly and stupid, this makes total since. I do not; I would rather have less clutter and the thought that maybe the blacksmith in the world I live in actually have a brain in their head.
There should just be one stat, that determines your damage, your crit chance, your hit points and your armor class called "number" and then when you find a weapon it would just say +10, and you just add it to your number - that would be much more simple and elegant.
I do not see how a going from a combination of stats that derive things like "chance to hit" or "critical hit chance" to just one stat adds anything to the game. It makes itemization more simple, and it makes the decision process more simple, but I think it will tend to lead min/max builds, even moreso than your typical MMORPG. Simpler and dumber are synomyms.
There should just be one stat, that determines your damage, your crit chance, your hit points and your armor class called "number" and then when you find a weapon it would just say +10, and you just add it to your number - that would be much more simple and elegant.
I do not see how a going from a combination of stats that derive things like "chance to hit" or "critical hit chance" to just one stat adds anything to the game. It makes itemization more simple, and it makes the decision process more simple, but I think it will tend to lead min/max builds, even moreso than your typical MMORPG. Simpler and dumber are synomyms.
i gues you havent played Guild Wars then....people need to understand why guild wars was called BUILD WARS. guild wars is not a typical MMORPG..and they are not trying to make one.
guild wars is not about rushing to end game..becuase it is not about an end game. its not about trying to plan raids to grab your gear...becuase it is not about gear.
It makes itemization more simple, and it makes the decision process more simple yup and that is guild wars if you do not like a skill based game where how you work with your team and what skills you bring means much much more the your stats or items or gears then dont play
Consolidating stats and removing "clutter" didnt really pan out well for WoW. It is way too simple and everybody is the same. Lets hope the same thing doesnt happen to gw2.
Consolidating stats and removing "clutter" didnt really pan out well for WoW. It is way too simple and everybody is the same. Lets hope the same thing doesnt happen to gw2.
Foom, you are thinking about skills, not stats. You can't honestly tell me that their old system, which had 5-10 stats affecting one thing, was really quite so necessary to be "unique". I'm exaggerating, yes, but having played WoW, convoluted doth not equate to deep and meaningful gameplay, it inhibits it. I shouldn't have to number-crunch how much strength affects me compared to agility compared to haste compared to armor penetration compared to crit rate compared to attack power compared to spell power (I played a Ret pally) compared to expertise compared to hit rating and compared to whether or not I'm wearing one sock or two. All that, just for damage.
edit: Forgot about Weapon skill too... so wow... really was 10 stats...
But thankfully, we're not talking about giving everyone everyone elses spells and abilities, we're talking about stats, a system that is present between every character to begin with, regardless of class.
I'd rather have 4 meanful stats than 100 useless ones that you just end up min/maxing anyway... still 4 does seem a little restrictive in that there's not many combinations you can make out of them. It all depends on the skills though, if there are enough skills that work well together but require differnet stats to be super effective (sorry) there should be a lot of interesting and fun builds you can come up with.
Originally posted by Cursedsei Originally posted by Foomerang Consolidating stats and removing "clutter" didnt really pan out well for WoW. It is way too simple and everybody is the same. Lets hope the same thing doesnt happen to gw2.
Foom, you are thinking about skills, not stats. You can't honestly tell me that their old system, which had 5-10 stats affecting one thing, was really quite so necessary to be "unique". I'm exaggerating, yes, but having played WoW, convoluted doth not equate to deep and meaningful gameplay, it inhibits it. I shouldn't have to number-crunch how much strength affects me compared to agility compared to haste compared to armor penetration compared to crit rate compared to attack power compared to spell power (I played a Ret pally) compared to expertise compared to hit rating and compared to whether or not I'm wearing one sock or two. All that, just for damage. edit: Forgot about Weapon skill too... so wow... really was 10 stats...
But thankfully, we're not talking about giving everyone everyone elses spells and abilities, we're talking about stats, a system that is present between every character to begin with, regardless of class. good point. 4 stats is manageable. I hope I dont get flamed for this, but when I think of gw2, I think of Phantasy Star Online. Everyone can fit every role, actively dodge incoming attacks, and it had a simple stats system. It was an addicting online game but it really pales in comparison to a full blown mmorpg. Id like to see anet embrace the scale and scope of a legit mmorpg. But there are all these little things that hint at a fun online romp but not enough meat n potatoes to call home so to speak.
I look forward to being proven wrong about all of that when GW2 launches because I love the art style, races, animations, and pvp approach. Yeah you may say Im already wrong but none of us truly know that yet. Still its fun to speculate either way.
Still sounds too restrictiing, in that it still is going to pigeon-hole players into making choices they may not want to make.
The way I see it, with two stats focused on damage output, and two stats focused on mitigating damage, you create a very, very restrictive system of survivability versus damage.
In PvP, I'd imagine balancing the two would be optimal versus being a glass cannon or an immovable object that is incapable of actually killing anything.
In PvE, however, without dedicated healing classes (which I'm all for btw) it seems this 4 stat system is simply removing one of the 3 sides of the Holy Trinity, while keeping the other two in the game.
You'll have your damage soakers (toughness/vitality) and your damage dealers (power/accuracy) and the more difficult the content becomes, the more specialized and role-specific you're going to have to be.
The only way I can see this really working is if every piece of gear has its stat allocation split between one of the offensive and one of the defensive stats.
Power + Vitality for raw damage output and "meat shield" type health pool large enough to shrug off damage.
Power + Toughness for raw damage output and damage mitigation to reduce incoming damage.
Accuracy + Vitality for improved combo/burst/effect generation and "meat shield" type health pool.
Accuracy + Toughness for improved combo/burst/effect generation and damage mitigation.
The moment you create gear that is Power + Accuracy or Toughness + Vitality, you pigeon hole players into being tanks or DPS. Again, Holy Trinity alive and well just without the 3rd component of healing.
They have a very active combat system with dodging, rolling, and very skill based use of abilities for cooperative efforts and such... I'd see this more as a game where you try to avoid taking damage at all costs. Considering no dedicated healing, why even try and include damage mitigation or health pool inflation?
Instead, make the four stats Power, Accuracy, then something like Focus and Willpower.
Power and Accuracy do the same thing, increase your base damage or critical chance, but then make Focus effect the regeneration of your "mana" pool or whatever they are calling it for using abilities, and Willpower a stat that decreases the amount of "mana" that abilities use in the first place.
That way, you have more interesting play style choices.
Slow and Heavy damage - Power + Willpower.
Fast and furious - Power + Focus
Tactical and Heavy (very combo driven) - Accuracy + Willpower
Tactical and consistent - Accuracy + Focus.
That way things are more split between steady, constant damage, bursty high damage, slow to build then powerful combo effects, and tactical, status effect driven buff/debuff aided damage.
The stat system they are planning to implement is curious to me also, but you need to take a look at there implementation of the holy trinity.... they will not be removing anything simply converting tank to control (and dev blogs have mentioned plenty of non tanky type professions implementing this), then heals to support (more shields and midigation but even the necro class has an aoe type heal), finally the dps to damage class to remove the concepts of dps/dot/burst as many classes are going to be able to implement iterations of all these types. Only 4 stats does give me pose, but I am hopeful that there intentions will shine through as they really are focusing on making a game that they want to play and not another cookie cutter of the others out there today.
One positive outcome of this is that you wont ever have to think "I love the (insert stat here) on this weapon, but the (insert stat here) is useless so I need a different item."
One negative outcome could be the lack of items or many of the same item just with different skins on them.
My final thought is that they shouldn't have to worry about this issue since the looting system will change alot. Most of the stat issues I came across were loot drops that we would have to argue over who would make use of the stats more (a healer doesn't need hit....LMAO sorry inside joke but I assume you all know what I mean). Since looting is meant to help everyone out and prevent the GRIND of one mob/area/boss/instance/etc, I don't think this issue should be as serious as they are making it.
I personally see stats as a numerical representation of progression. In this context I don't really see the problem of only 4 stats, but in the sense that I want to be as different as possible from others I group with I see 4 stats as bare bones. Even though 200 stats just makes for alot of useless stats, I think 6 stats could be managed in a way that would give me more identity in my progression and more diversity from my teammates.
In the end we will just have to wait and see how it goes.
Consolidating stats and removing "clutter" didnt really pan out well for WoW. It is way too simple and everybody is the same. Lets hope the same thing doesnt happen to gw2.
Foom, you are thinking about skills, not stats. You can't honestly tell me that their old system, which had 5-10 stats affecting one thing, was really quite so necessary to be "unique". I'm exaggerating, yes, but having played WoW, convoluted doth not equate to deep and meaningful gameplay, it inhibits it. I shouldn't have to number-crunch how much strength affects me compared to agility compared to haste compared to armor penetration compared to crit rate compared to attack power compared to spell power (I played a Ret pally) compared to expertise compared to hit rating and compared to whether or not I'm wearing one sock or two. All that, just for damage.
edit: Forgot about Weapon skill too... so wow... really was 10 stats...
But thankfully, we're not talking about giving everyone everyone elses spells and abilities, we're talking about stats, a system that is present between every character to begin with, regardless of class.
good point. 4 stats is manageable. I hope I dont get flamed for this, but when I think of gw2, I think of Phantasy Star Online. Everyone can fit every role, actively dodge incoming attacks, and it had a simple stats system. It was an addicting online game but it really pales in comparison to a full blown mmorpg. Id like to see anet embrace the scale and scope of a legit mmorpg. But there are all these little things that hint at a fun online romp but not enough meat n potatoes to call home so to speak.
I look forward to being proven wrong about all of that when GW2 launches because I love the art style, races, animations, and pvp approach. Yeah you may say Im already wrong but none of us truly know that yet. Still its fun to speculate either way.
I've played Phantasy, but never had the chance to play online with it. That said though, there isn't anything intrinsincly wrong about saying that. The games, in the end, were fun to play, and in the end that was what mattered, and what should matter with Guild Wars 2.
As for content, I think Arena.Net has learned its lessons with GW 1. The game certainly didn't start out with all of the content it has now, but there is a great deal to do in GW 1 now, it would take a good while to start getting through it. I don't see Arena.Net just forgetting to do this with GW 2.
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Maybe I'm seeing things wrong but this way, especially the defensive stats could promote dividing people into pvp and pve builds to a high degree, right?
Mitigation from toughness being more useful in pve in general; a pure tanking skill giving anyone healing a much easier job by toughness negating high amounts of damage done by boss attacks as well as damage from multiple smaller sources.
For pve vitality is only needed to have enough buffer to withstand single boss attacks / to keep standing long enough for healers to keep you up.
While large amounts of vitality is generally a great thing to have in pvp, with more balanced incoming damage, more one versus one and one versus two scenario's and not always being able to rely on heals.
Power and accuracy offers a problem as well. Going for consistent damage output with power could become totally obsolete if accuracy ends up giving you higher dps and a chance on some nice burst damage in pvp.
Depending on how boss agro mechanics pan out, doing a lot of criticals for dps players could create an agro issue, promoting them to spec power builds instead and gimping themselves for pvp at the same time.
All in all I'm not convinced to keep stats down to only four. It does make things a lot more simple without solving build dilemma's and it makes it less of a character build science which to me is fun and rewarding to get "a degree in".
But a lot of this is of course speculation. Will be interesting to see how it really pans out.
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Streamlining is certainly not "dumbing down". In most games only 25% of your stats are relevant to you in any meaningful way that you want to raise. Rather than have these class specific stats, they streamline it so every stat is important, and trying to balance them so each are equally important for the calculation (which will help me win a fight), but differ in the choice of HOW to win that fight. This offers more choices than "if you are a wizard, pump int", and more choices make the game deeper.
I am not sold on GW2 yet, but will try it. Most importantly I will try it with an open mind.
I think this theoretical pidgeonhole will be mitigated by weapon-switching. In a way, everyone will be in the same subset of self-sufficient players, but gear quality will influence a propensity towards offense or defense. Support will likely be frontline, so it stands to reason that extra survivability, no matter your class, will be important given that most mobs will likely have an arc of damage rather than a raw single-target.
Moreover, they're talking about stats here. The stuff you put points into to define your character and not necessarily gear. Gear will probably have modifiers similar to HCR or zealous that will provide the changes that heerobya suggested.
I like how this attribute system offers you a lot of variety in gameplay. Im just a little worried about how GW2 is turning more towards a gearbased game. I actually like the original Guild Wars' approach to gear. Where more expensive or more difficult to obtain gear is just better looking.
So I hope that PVP in GW2 doesnt allow too much gear difference (in effectiveness). People should win based on skill and teamplay (like in Guild Wars), not because their better gear gives them an advantage.
For PVE I dont care.
That was a worry that was brought up on GW2guru. I highly doubt it will turn into a gear-based game. The devs stated that you can get viable armor through any method but you have to remember that with 80 levels now instead of 20 that armor has to have increasing values at higher levels or else it might as well be statless skins.
Also for the competetive 5v5 PvP you don't get to wear your own armor or use your own weapons so it is completely dependent upon skill. WvWvW is a different story seeing as you won't be at the same level as your opponents.
Oh, the 5v5 part is good to hear. For PVE I dont mind if its gearbased. With WvWvW I dont mind it that much either. Its probably all about completing objectives in WvWvW with sides that always are different in numbers, and hopefully chaotic in a good way
The stats are Power, Precision, Vitality, and Toughness. Accuracy is not a stat, and saying it over and over makes you look uninformed.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
Just to clarify something with you... there will be no healers in GW2 and the closest thing you will have to one, is for a fellow player to provide you with an opportunity to self-heal. There are no targeted heals, only AOE health regeneration like "Healing Rain". Also the self-heals and health-regen skills/abilities all seem to work by recovering a set % of health, so a lvl 2 Ranger with 300 health and a lvl 22 Ranger with 1,500+ will both recover xx% of their health with their healing skill, not xx amount. So that pretty much debunks your main issue with vitality and I would love to go on debunking your other speculative claims (¬_¬) but I'd rather close it with this point.
The thing is ArenaNet wants us to play the game how we want to play, by providing us with the tools to customize our playstyle (professions, weapon sets, attributes, traits, etc.). So you'll basically customize your attributes to compliment the rest of your build and I see the attributes, so far, working by asking yourself simple questions each time you level...
- Should I add some Power since it increases the base damage I deal?
- Should I add some Precision since it increases my crit. % chance, which certain skill traits may rely on?
- Should I add some Toughness since I will be able to take sustained damage, for longer?
- Should I add some Vitality since I will have a larger health pool, thus being able to take bigger hits?
It's all about how you choose to play the game. Like if you're a Thief and you're not confident in your ability to avoid damage, then you best stack on the vitality for the next couple levels.
There most certainly is more complexity in having ALL sats on weapons and armour.First of all it allows GW2 to make LESS items,so lazy and cheaper approach.
I should point out using FFXi as an example is a little tainted because FFXI does utilize the play all class on the same player,but again a better in depth design .
Using FFXI for example,you might find a weapon with stats not related but that class doesn't mean it can't be useful,as it ties into other classes.The point is that you make ALL sorts of combinations of weapon attributes,this DOES add to depth,GW2 design is removing depth.
In FFXI you might have a bow with MND and DEX on it,so it might be useful to a Thief for the DEX[Sneak Attack],and to that same Thiefs ranged attacks if using for example a Holy bolt setup for the MND.TONS and tons of combinations and usefullness if the developer wants to put out the effort or in depth design.
Also one stat in FFXI is not tied down to one meaning,AGI as used in the article example has many uses.AGI can be used for ranged dmg,or ranged accuracy,or a Thief's Trick Attack,it is also used in evasion calculations and when formulated with the enemies Dexterity ,calculates the chance to critical.
So using just the AGI example,FFXI has almost as much depth from one stat as all 4 in GW2.
Also some weapons in FFXI utilize more than one attribute as a modifier,so just having POWER for example is only one stat with no modifier,seems obvious GW2 is going for less and easier,perhaps they are trying to rush this game out.
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GW2 isn't removing depth. It's removing useless clutter that is unnecessary.
The problem with your concern is that leveling up is not the point of GW2. Between sidekicking between players, scaling Dynamic Events, being scaled up or down based on the area you're in, and the plateaued leveling curve, not only does ANet not particularly care if someone wants to brute force through to level cap, but such players will find that it doesn't particularly matter in the long run. The content is not at the endgame, it's everywhere. So, let them "dps spec" if they want to; they'll find it doesn't grant them the advantages they think it will.
What you don't seem to note is that GW2 is a totally different game from FF11. GW2 doesn't rely on dice rolls to calculate dodge chances therefore having agility is a waste of space, FF11 does so it makes sense for that game to have agility as a stat. Fake complexity is not complexity that's what is called a headache.
Another thing you fail to note is that one of GW2's main mechanics is weapon swapping and trying to do that with 6 stats is a hassle especially because a Warrior who wants to switch from a bow to a sword and shield mid-battle won't be able to do so effectively due to the fact that his attributes are spread too thin (between Strenght (melee) and Agility (ranged)). On the other hand a caster class will be able to switch their weapons without needing to change their stats because the only thing they need for spell damage is Intelligence which makes the whole thing a bit uneven and pigeon holes players into using just one weapon set effectively and the other weapons as just side-arms that do nothing. That is not what Anet wants therefore they have simplified the attribute system to a point so that every profession can weapon swap effectively without being gimped.
This is not a game.
As in, buy their game despite the fact that some of the proceeds will go to that despicable company called NCSoft.
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I *do* actually think the current revised stat system is dumbing it down. That's not necessarily a show-stopper for me. I'm more interested in what the gameplay is like... if it's good, then I'll buy. Sure, I wish the system had a little more depth but if it's decent and fun, I'll give it a shot.
Oh here is a thought; it could also mean that they can make more items that are useful to the professions that are going to use them. Instead of spending time creating stuff that only a small percentage will use, and having a bunch of clutter floating around the game.
I also what to know how having stats on a 2 handed sword, a sword design for a warrior, that a warrior will never use makes the world more in-depth. So apparently having Blacksmiths in a game world that are idiots and that are making stuff that is useless to the people they are designing the weapon for, is more sought after. I thought blacksmiths that made weapons were supposed to be masters of their craft, after all if I was going into battle I would not buy a weapon from an apprentice weapon smith. So how is a Master Blacksmith making a weapon for a warrior that no warrior would ever use, more in-depth. That to me is more shallow, and stupid! That is like a blacksmith in our world, making a sword with blades on the handle that stab you ever time you swing the sword. Hey it adds more depth to the world, since it adds more verity; by the logic that clutter makes a more in depth world this would totally make sense. Or here is a thought maybe a master blacksmith would not be that stupid, and he would take into account who he was designing for. Let’s see a magic user in my world does not use a great sword, nor does a thief, or Guardian; so why would I make a great sword for them. I wouldn’t I would make a sword for the people that would use it.
I am sorry but having weapons with useless stats does not make a world more in depth, it makes it more silly and stupid. I guess if you like all the blacksmith NPCs to be silly and stupid, this makes total since. I do not; I would rather have less clutter and the thought that maybe the blacksmith in the world I live in actually have a brain in their head.
There should just be one stat, that determines your damage, your crit chance, your hit points and your armor class called "number" and then when you find a weapon it would just say +10, and you just add it to your number - that would be much more simple and elegant.
I do not see how a going from a combination of stats that derive things like "chance to hit" or "critical hit chance" to just one stat adds anything to the game. It makes itemization more simple, and it makes the decision process more simple, but I think it will tend to lead min/max builds, even moreso than your typical MMORPG. Simpler and dumber are synomyms.
i gues you havent played Guild Wars then....people need to understand why guild wars was called BUILD WARS. guild wars is not a typical MMORPG..and they are not trying to make one.
guild wars is not about rushing to end game..becuase it is not about an end game. its not about trying to plan raids to grab your gear...becuase it is not about gear.
It makes itemization more simple, and it makes the decision process more simple yup and that is guild wars if you do not like a skill based game where how you work with your team and what skills you bring means much much more the your stats or items or gears then dont play
Consolidating stats and removing "clutter" didnt really pan out well for WoW. It is way too simple and everybody is the same. Lets hope the same thing doesnt happen to gw2.
Foom, you are thinking about skills, not stats. You can't honestly tell me that their old system, which had 5-10 stats affecting one thing, was really quite so necessary to be "unique". I'm exaggerating, yes, but having played WoW, convoluted doth not equate to deep and meaningful gameplay, it inhibits it. I shouldn't have to number-crunch how much strength affects me compared to agility compared to haste compared to armor penetration compared to crit rate compared to attack power compared to spell power (I played a Ret pally) compared to expertise compared to hit rating and compared to whether or not I'm wearing one sock or two. All that, just for damage.
edit: Forgot about Weapon skill too... so wow... really was 10 stats...
But thankfully, we're not talking about giving everyone everyone elses spells and abilities, we're talking about stats, a system that is present between every character to begin with, regardless of class.
I'd rather have 4 meanful stats than 100 useless ones that you just end up min/maxing anyway... still 4 does seem a little restrictive in that there's not many combinations you can make out of them. It all depends on the skills though, if there are enough skills that work well together but require differnet stats to be super effective (sorry) there should be a lot of interesting and fun builds you can come up with.
edit: Forgot about Weapon skill too... so wow... really was 10 stats...
But thankfully, we're not talking about giving everyone everyone elses spells and abilities, we're talking about stats, a system that is present between every character to begin with, regardless of class.
good point. 4 stats is manageable. I hope I dont get flamed for this, but when I think of gw2, I think of Phantasy Star Online. Everyone can fit every role, actively dodge incoming attacks, and it had a simple stats system. It was an addicting online game but it really pales in comparison to a full blown mmorpg. Id like to see anet embrace the scale and scope of a legit mmorpg. But there are all these little things that hint at a fun online romp but not enough meat n potatoes to call home so to speak.
I look forward to being proven wrong about all of that when GW2 launches because I love the art style, races, animations, and pvp approach. Yeah you may say Im already wrong but none of us truly know that yet. Still its fun to speculate either way.
The stat system they are planning to implement is curious to me also, but you need to take a look at there implementation of the holy trinity.... they will not be removing anything simply converting tank to control (and dev blogs have mentioned plenty of non tanky type professions implementing this), then heals to support (more shields and midigation but even the necro class has an aoe type heal), finally the dps to damage class to remove the concepts of dps/dot/burst as many classes are going to be able to implement iterations of all these types. Only 4 stats does give me pose, but I am hopeful that there intentions will shine through as they really are focusing on making a game that they want to play and not another cookie cutter of the others out there today.
One positive outcome of this is that you wont ever have to think "I love the (insert stat here) on this weapon, but the (insert stat here) is useless so I need a different item."
One negative outcome could be the lack of items or many of the same item just with different skins on them.
My final thought is that they shouldn't have to worry about this issue since the looting system will change alot. Most of the stat issues I came across were loot drops that we would have to argue over who would make use of the stats more (a healer doesn't need hit....LMAO sorry inside joke but I assume you all know what I mean). Since looting is meant to help everyone out and prevent the GRIND of one mob/area/boss/instance/etc, I don't think this issue should be as serious as they are making it.
Another final thought lol.
I personally see stats as a numerical representation of progression. In this context I don't really see the problem of only 4 stats, but in the sense that I want to be as different as possible from others I group with I see 4 stats as bare bones. Even though 200 stats just makes for alot of useless stats, I think 6 stats could be managed in a way that would give me more identity in my progression and more diversity from my teammates.
In the end we will just have to wait and see how it goes.
I've played Phantasy, but never had the chance to play online with it. That said though, there isn't anything intrinsincly wrong about saying that. The games, in the end, were fun to play, and in the end that was what mattered, and what should matter with Guild Wars 2.
As for content, I think Arena.Net has learned its lessons with GW 1. The game certainly didn't start out with all of the content it has now, but there is a great deal to do in GW 1 now, it would take a good while to start getting through it. I don't see Arena.Net just forgetting to do this with GW 2.