thanks for the link, after I read it I have more confidence in the success of gw2, but still it would be interesting that gw2 defeated wow
It's going to be interesting regardless. If GW2 becomes a retail success, and maintains a healthy population, it's going to change the way people think about mmos, regardless if it "beats" WoW.
This has nothing to do with the competiveness of GW2. GW2 is not going to bring any new players to MMO's, whereas SWTOR will likely do this on a fairly large scale. There are many KOTOR, DA, and Mass Effect players who are big fans of BioWare, but have never made the step into the mmo world... this will be their first experience. Ultimately it will allow SWTOR to gain a very large subscription base without being required to "steal" users from another MMO.
This. WoW brought in mmo virgins, so will ToR (but for much much different reasons).
Everyone should know by now that it doesnt matter how better or how much more wanted an mmo is/is going to be. Its about appealing to a larger audience and more so, reaching that audience. WoW itself is proof of that. Its very generic and dumbed downed compared to much better, less popular mmos. If those mmos were advertised as much as WoW, they'd be popular too.
OmaliMMO Business CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,177
Originally posted by romanator0
I would rather you did it considering you are the person who claimed that very few people are actually still playing it.
Guild Wars brings in less income per month than City of Heroes. It can have as many players as it wants, it still brings in about 2% of NCsoft's quarterly income.
Guild Wars brings in less income per month than City of Heroes. It can have as many players as it wants, it still brings in about 2% of NCsoft's quarterly income.
Yeah, but that is because ANET have spent the last few years only working on GW2 (well, almost). GW lives on selling boxes and the last box that came out was GW:EN. Now have most income been from selling costumes and character slots to old players.
And frankly did CoX cost a lot more to make than GW, GW have gotten in many times the money it cost to make even if you count in running costs.
GW2 will get back the money it costed to make it, the question is just how much more they get in. It wont be Wow sums, but it will hopefully be enough.
This has nothing to do with the competiveness of GW2. GW2 is not going to bring any new players to MMO's, whereas SWTOR will likely do this on a fairly large scale. There are many KOTOR, DA, and Mass Effect players who are big fans of BioWare, but have never made the step into the mmo world... this will be their first experience. Ultimately it will allow SWTOR to gain a very large subscription base without being required to "steal" users from another MMO.
This. WoW brought in mmo virgins, so will ToR (but for much much different reasons).
Everyone should know by now that it doesnt matter how better or how much more wanted an mmo is/is going to be. Its about appealing to a larger audience and more so, reaching that audience. WoW itself is proof of that. Its very generic and dumbed downed compared to much better, less popular mmos. If those mmos were advertised as much as WoW, they'd be popular too.
That's odd. I remember the media blitz for EverQuest 2, didn't seem to help that game at all. Then there is the current media blitz for Rift and I'm not seeing any more people running around in that game than I did in beta. Advertising will only let people know about the game, but if it doesn't have what it takes to keep them, then they won't hang around no matter how much advertising it gets.
WoW earned it's player base, the advertising just got them to try it. EverQuest 2 didn't earn even a fraction of the player base of WoW and it had just as much advertising on TV at it's release. The same thing with Rift, the server populations are already settling at less than three months after release, the huge queues no longer exist, even on weekends, with maybe an exception on one or two servers that still get a few minutes long queue at peak time on the weekends only.
I no longer play WoW, because I can't play any MMO for more than two or three years before it's just too same old, same old, but it's still the best designed MMO out there right now. Your elitist view on the masses not withstanding.
That's odd. I remember the media blitz for EverQuest 2, didn't seem to help that game at all. Then there is the current media blitz for Rift and I'm not seeing any more people running around in that game than I did in beta. Advertising will only let people know about the game, but if it doesn't have what it takes to keep them, then they won't hang around no matter how much advertising it gets.
WoW earned it's player base, the advertising just got them to try it. EverQuest 2 didn't earn even a fraction of the player base of WoW and it had just as much advertising on TV at it's release. The same thing with Rift, the server populations are already settling at less than three months after release, the huge queues no longer exist, even on weekends, with maybe an exception on one or two servers that still get a few minutes long queue at peak time on the weekends only.
I no longer play WoW, because I can't play any MMO for more than two or three years before it's just too same old, same old, but it's still the best designed MMO out there right now. Your elitist view on the masses not withstanding.
Advertising really helped Wow getting new players.
Keeping old players is a very different matter and no amount of advertising do that.
And Wows release was pretty good, the only game I know of that gotten back from a bad release is Eve. When a game releases like EQ2 there really isn't much you can do to get many subs later, everyone just remember how the game was at launch.
But yes, saying Wow is a bad game is kinda stupid, it made Blizzard really rich and you don't get rich on bad games. I don't really get what's so good with it myself but it must do something right and just because I don't like a game does not mean it is a bad game.
Of course Blizzard only sees SWTOR as an opponent. This isn't any different to how you keep control in democracy - you only pick one opponent and make people think that there are only two options. This way, people who like Blizzard play WoW, people who don't like Blizzard will play SWTOR, because "it's the only game comparable that isn't by Blizzard".
"We don't intend to be number two this time. We certainly have our sights set on number one." -- Mike O'Brien, president and co-founder of Guild Wars creator ArenaNet (for Blizzard programmer, Warcraft III engine)
no its not for one reason only its free to play once you buy it so all the wow fan bois can play wow and gw2 at the same time
Gee this argument hasn't been voiced before!
This argument falsely insinuates that there is only a financial conflict between 2 MMOs that have sub fees. In such a case, the difference would be between either paying 2 sub fees or 1 ($30 versus $15, for example). Consider a f2p and a sub fee game. The choice is then between 1 sub fee or none ($15 versus $0, for example). It's a $15 difference either way.
Moreover, playing an MMO is a time investment. The more you enjoy one game, the more of your free time you'll spend playing it, the less time you'll have for any other MMO. Few people actually seriously play multiple MMOs at the same time. If a new MMO begins consuming all your playing time, why would you want to continue to pay for an additional MMO?
I expect that GW2, because of its payment scheme (B2P), will be treated much like single player games for many. Even people who play MMOs will indulge in single player games frequently, while never completely giving up on that MMO. They'll step away for a while (days, weeks, maybe months), then return home. GW2 is like that single player game in that you can always come back to it later when you get the itch, without having to worry about renewing a sub, and that's a major attraction.
I can't count how many times I've reinstalled old games and given them another play through. I've sometimes done this a half dozen times with the same game. With MMOs, I've done it twice. Once with WoW and once with CoV. Why? The sub. It's just not worth getting back on the payment treadmill again for a game that I've already gone through once. Even if I have the urge to play, I don't want the headaches of reactivating a dormant account and paying to relive the exact same experience. When it's free and easy though, I'm much more amenable. This is why it's often said that GW2 can co-exist with subscription-based games. I should also mention that I've returned to GW1a few times, but since I never had to reactivate anything or pay to get back to the game, I didn't mention it in the same breath with the other MMOs.
Of course, the one thing that most people seem to be missing (though I suspect Blizzard is clever enough to realize it), is that GW2 will not only be more accessable with fewer strings attached, but it may also be superior to its competitors. It's entirely possible that people will choose to stay and play because it's just so damned good, and not simply because there's no subscription. I'm sure other developers out there would love for the gaming community in general, to see GW2 as nothing more than a addendum to your real game fix. This way, GW2 can be dismissed as not one of the big boys and not get the same amount of attention and recognition that the others are getting. Unfortunately, it appears that most people that actually get to see the game are awestruck, and the more exposure it gets, the more people get to see it.
Blizzard knows the game is a potential threat to their bottom line, but it's also below the radar for many right now. By not mentioning it, they help keep the lid on it a bit longer. Everyone and his dog is talking about SWTOR so it doesn't hurt to discuss them. People are doing it anyway, in many, many circles, so why not? But if ANet manages to bring to market a first class, 'AAA' title that is fun, engrossing, beautiful and crammed full of content, AND they do it for the price of a single player game, then it goes from potential threat to actual threat.
Blizzard has been top dog for a long time and with good reason. They make a quality product and are savvy enough to stay above the fray. But they also know that if someone comes along with a superior product for a fraction of the price, they've got a problem. Best not to acknowledge it exists until they have a strategy to deal with it.
I am (as usual) a little late to the party. 2 things going on in this thread
1) is the OP's question
GW2 is left out of the picture because they can't really compete. No matter the result and market GW2 gets. A B2P game is not an competitor, it might be a killer( and that will change the market entirely) but if its not it is to be ignored because WOWs marked is a subscribtion marked.
2) there is the discussion about if aiming for being number 1 is the same as going against wow.
first many big compagnies have gone after WOW and failed . this have lead to the WOW curse- where it is considered hybris to say that you can compete with WOW.
But why these compagnies failed is actual being described very good back in 2007 by Jeff Strain from ArenaNet in this article
to put it short, most compagnies have tried to compete with WOW by copying WOWs formular. This is bound to fail for several reasons mentioned there. At the same time very few developers have tried to do there own thing, while having the funds to aim for an AAA game.
From this development point of view its easy to see the difference between aiming for the top spot , and aiming for beating wow.
ArenaNet is in a situation where they have the funds, and are doing there own thing, and then being a top game studio , why shouldn't they aim for the top spot?
Why are we even discussing whether GW2 will be able to overthrow WOW? Isn't the real question whether or not GW2 can beat RIFT? RIFT is the best MMORPG game out right now. It's so amazing and shiney and, and, and ROFL
Why are we even discussing whether GW2 will be able to overthrow WOW? Isn't the real question whether or not GW2 can beat RIFT? RIFT is the best MMORPG game out right now. It's so amazing and shiney and, and, and ROFL
Sorry couldn't keep a straight face anymore.
I actually thought you were serious until I saw the last line.
The only thing that is going to beat WOW is that game which brings innovation. I think, I THINK, GW2 may bring this to the table in some areas, but the extent will decide it's fate. It's not revolutionary, but in a lot of ways it's innovative. It's hard to say whether they can displace Blizzard as number one. This isn't even taking into account Blizzards "Titan" currently in development. I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard changed the face of MMORPG's with this game, not trying to sound like a fanboi or anyhting.
The only thing that will topple Blizzard is going to be something that is stable, graphically amazing (cause lets admit WOW is pretty terrible looking, even though some people still defend it for some reason), it's going to have to bring in new ways of doing things and completely integrate it into amazing gameplay immersion. While I'm not certain what new things can be done (there's always something new), it's a must to rip people out of their WOW stupor. People have spent too many years building relationships in WOW to just toss it aside for some clone, no matter how good the quality is, It just won't happen. Especially not with new content being offered in WOW. I don't think Cataclysm was anything special, by any stretch of the imagination, but it did bring fresh story, new races, and such to help satisfy old players that may be getting bored with Northrend. There has to be a bold new innovation that changes the gameplay to even hope to wrestle the number one position away from WOW. I honestly don't think SWTOR will do this, but time will tell, and I am looking forward to both of these games, since I'm not able to stomach WOW anymore.
Why are we even discussing whether GW2 will be able to overthrow WOW? Isn't the real question whether or not GW2 can beat RIFT? RIFT is the best MMORPG game out right now. It's so amazing and shiney and, and, and ROFL
Sorry couldn't keep a straight face anymore.
I actually thought you were serious until I saw the last line.
Why are we even discussing whether GW2 will be able to overthrow WOW? Isn't the real question whether or not GW2 can beat RIFT? RIFT is the best MMORPG game out right now. It's so amazing and shiney and, and, and ROFL
Sorry couldn't keep a straight face anymore.
I actually thought you were serious until I saw the last line.
The fact as I see it is, you find time to play an mmo your paying for, you can play one you own forever whenever you want. Having owned GW1 since it launched I can tell you, I maybe played GW once a month if that often. I never felt guilty about it. I played my mmo's I was paying for dayly, why because I was paying money to play them and if I wasn't on I was wasting money.
Like others have said a B2P game typically won't cause someone to cancel their subscription account to their current MMO. No matter how many hours someone puts into test drive unlimited 2, or street fighter 4, or Dragon Age 2, or what ever other games people might be playing, they'll still be logging on (even if just to do a daily heroic) and tell their guildmates about how awesome game X is.
With no sub, there's no decision to be made other than, "do I want to purchase this game?" If yes, then you buy it and play whenever you want. B2P games will never be direct competition for P2P game customers.
Like others have said a B2P game typically won't cause someone to cancel their subscription account to their current MMO. No matter how many hours someone puts into test drive unlimited 2, or street fighter 4, or Dragon Age 2, or what ever other games people might be playing, they'll still be logging on (even if just to do a daily heroic) and tell their guildmates about how awesome game X is.
With no sub, there's no decision to be made other than, "do I want to purchase this game?" If yes, then you buy it and play whenever you want. B2P games will never be direct competition for P2P game customers.
unless they make the B2P game so amazingly fun, that people start to realize they haven't logged into their P2P for over a month.
I hope.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
The fact as I see it is, you find time to play an mmo your paying for, you can play one you own forever whenever you want. Having owned GW1 since it launched I can tell you, I maybe played GW once a month if that often. I never felt guilty about it. I played my mmo's I was paying for dayly, why because I was paying money to play them and if I wasn't on I was wasting money.
Hmm I see your point, but at the same time if you have subscription to a game that isn't fun, you cancel the subscription and stop playing, as I did with DC Universe and Global Agenda (before it went B2P). I think it changes depending on the person. I seriously doubt the majority of people even subconsciously decide to play a game simply based off of the fact that they're paying for it. It comes down to enjoyability and community.
Don't delude yourself people. Blizzard didn't mention GW2 because they know it won't have an affect on their playerbase. GW2 is just a fantasy based MMO in a sea of fantasy based MMO's. Whether GW2 will be any good is highly debatable, it will also bring in very few new players to the MMO genre...... Just look at all the fantasy based MMO's out there, do you really believe they are bringing in lots of new players to the genre? Don't kid yourself.
SWTOR has a great appeal to bring in new players to the MMO genre.... hell even at my work, there are console only players who are saying they want to get a computer so they can play SWTOR. SWTOR will have a much larger player base than GW2 just for the simple fact that it will bring in new players.
Comments
GW is still going despite being 6 years old and B2P. Subscriptions aren't necessary to keep a game up.
Read this post.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/view/forums/post/3870630#3870630
thanks for the link, after I read it I have more confidence in the success of gw2, but still it would be interesting that gw2 defeated wow
It's going to be interesting regardless. If GW2 becomes a retail success, and maintains a healthy population, it's going to change the way people think about mmos, regardless if it "beats" WoW.
This thread makes my head hurt.
For the OP, why does it matter?
The essence of every picture is the frame. (G. K. Chesterton)
Finally we get 2 MORE decent MMOs and everyone starts scrapping about who should stand in the middle of the photo-shoot... lol.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
This. WoW brought in mmo virgins, so will ToR (but for much much different reasons).
Everyone should know by now that it doesnt matter how better or how much more wanted an mmo is/is going to be. Its about appealing to a larger audience and more so, reaching that audience. WoW itself is proof of that. Its very generic and dumbed downed compared to much better, less popular mmos. If those mmos were advertised as much as WoW, they'd be popular too.
Guild Wars brings in less income per month than City of Heroes. It can have as many players as it wants, it still brings in about 2% of NCsoft's quarterly income.
Yeah, but that is because ANET have spent the last few years only working on GW2 (well, almost). GW lives on selling boxes and the last box that came out was GW:EN. Now have most income been from selling costumes and character slots to old players.
And frankly did CoX cost a lot more to make than GW, GW have gotten in many times the money it cost to make even if you count in running costs.
GW2 will get back the money it costed to make it, the question is just how much more they get in. It wont be Wow sums, but it will hopefully be enough.
That's odd. I remember the media blitz for EverQuest 2, didn't seem to help that game at all. Then there is the current media blitz for Rift and I'm not seeing any more people running around in that game than I did in beta. Advertising will only let people know about the game, but if it doesn't have what it takes to keep them, then they won't hang around no matter how much advertising it gets.
WoW earned it's player base, the advertising just got them to try it. EverQuest 2 didn't earn even a fraction of the player base of WoW and it had just as much advertising on TV at it's release. The same thing with Rift, the server populations are already settling at less than three months after release, the huge queues no longer exist, even on weekends, with maybe an exception on one or two servers that still get a few minutes long queue at peak time on the weekends only.
I no longer play WoW, because I can't play any MMO for more than two or three years before it's just too same old, same old, but it's still the best designed MMO out there right now. Your elitist view on the masses not withstanding.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Advertising really helped Wow getting new players.
Keeping old players is a very different matter and no amount of advertising do that.
And Wows release was pretty good, the only game I know of that gotten back from a bad release is Eve. When a game releases like EQ2 there really isn't much you can do to get many subs later, everyone just remember how the game was at launch.
But yes, saying Wow is a bad game is kinda stupid, it made Blizzard really rich and you don't get rich on bad games. I don't really get what's so good with it myself but it must do something right and just because I don't like a game does not mean it is a bad game.
Of course Blizzard only sees SWTOR as an opponent. This isn't any different to how you keep control in democracy - you only pick one opponent and make people think that there are only two options. This way, people who like Blizzard play WoW, people who don't like Blizzard will play SWTOR, because "it's the only game comparable that isn't by Blizzard".
"We don't intend to be number two this time. We certainly have our sights set on number one." -- Mike O'Brien, president and co-founder of Guild Wars creator ArenaNet (for Blizzard programmer, Warcraft III engine)
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-03-23-guild-wars-2-hands-on
I expect that GW2, because of its payment scheme (B2P), will be treated much like single player games for many. Even people who play MMOs will indulge in single player games frequently, while never completely giving up on that MMO. They'll step away for a while (days, weeks, maybe months), then return home. GW2 is like that single player game in that you can always come back to it later when you get the itch, without having to worry about renewing a sub, and that's a major attraction.
I can't count how many times I've reinstalled old games and given them another play through. I've sometimes done this a half dozen times with the same game. With MMOs, I've done it twice. Once with WoW and once with CoV. Why? The sub. It's just not worth getting back on the payment treadmill again for a game that I've already gone through once. Even if I have the urge to play, I don't want the headaches of reactivating a dormant account and paying to relive the exact same experience. When it's free and easy though, I'm much more amenable. This is why it's often said that GW2 can co-exist with subscription-based games. I should also mention that I've returned to GW1a few times, but since I never had to reactivate anything or pay to get back to the game, I didn't mention it in the same breath with the other MMOs.
Of course, the one thing that most people seem to be missing (though I suspect Blizzard is clever enough to realize it), is that GW2 will not only be more accessable with fewer strings attached, but it may also be superior to its competitors. It's entirely possible that people will choose to stay and play because it's just so damned good, and not simply because there's no subscription. I'm sure other developers out there would love for the gaming community in general, to see GW2 as nothing more than a addendum to your real game fix. This way, GW2 can be dismissed as not one of the big boys and not get the same amount of attention and recognition that the others are getting. Unfortunately, it appears that most people that actually get to see the game are awestruck, and the more exposure it gets, the more people get to see it.
Blizzard knows the game is a potential threat to their bottom line, but it's also below the radar for many right now. By not mentioning it, they help keep the lid on it a bit longer. Everyone and his dog is talking about SWTOR so it doesn't hurt to discuss them. People are doing it anyway, in many, many circles, so why not? But if ANet manages to bring to market a first class, 'AAA' title that is fun, engrossing, beautiful and crammed full of content, AND they do it for the price of a single player game, then it goes from potential threat to actual threat.
Blizzard has been top dog for a long time and with good reason. They make a quality product and are savvy enough to stay above the fray. But they also know that if someone comes along with a superior product for a fraction of the price, they've got a problem. Best not to acknowledge it exists until they have a strategy to deal with it.
I am (as usual) a little late to the party. 2 things going on in this thread
1) is the OP's question
GW2 is left out of the picture because they can't really compete. No matter the result and market GW2 gets. A B2P game is not an competitor, it might be a killer( and that will change the market entirely) but if its not it is to be ignored because WOWs marked is a subscribtion marked.
2) there is the discussion about if aiming for being number 1 is the same as going against wow.
first many big compagnies have gone after WOW and failed . this have lead to the WOW curse- where it is considered hybris to say that you can compete with WOW.
But why these compagnies failed is actual being described very good back in 2007 by Jeff Strain from ArenaNet in this article
http://eu.guildwars.com/press/article/jeffgc2007/
to put it short, most compagnies have tried to compete with WOW by copying WOWs formular. This is bound to fail for several reasons mentioned there. At the same time very few developers have tried to do there own thing, while having the funds to aim for an AAA game.
From this development point of view its easy to see the difference between aiming for the top spot , and aiming for beating wow.
ArenaNet is in a situation where they have the funds, and are doing there own thing, and then being a top game studio , why shouldn't they aim for the top spot?
Why are we even discussing whether GW2 will be able to overthrow WOW? Isn't the real question whether or not GW2 can beat RIFT? RIFT is the best MMORPG game out right now. It's so amazing and shiney and, and, and ROFL
Sorry couldn't keep a straight face anymore.
I actually thought you were serious until I saw the last line.
The only thing that is going to beat WOW is that game which brings innovation. I think, I THINK, GW2 may bring this to the table in some areas, but the extent will decide it's fate. It's not revolutionary, but in a lot of ways it's innovative. It's hard to say whether they can displace Blizzard as number one. This isn't even taking into account Blizzards "Titan" currently in development. I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard changed the face of MMORPG's with this game, not trying to sound like a fanboi or anyhting.
The only thing that will topple Blizzard is going to be something that is stable, graphically amazing (cause lets admit WOW is pretty terrible looking, even though some people still defend it for some reason), it's going to have to bring in new ways of doing things and completely integrate it into amazing gameplay immersion. While I'm not certain what new things can be done (there's always something new), it's a must to rip people out of their WOW stupor. People have spent too many years building relationships in WOW to just toss it aside for some clone, no matter how good the quality is, It just won't happen. Especially not with new content being offered in WOW. I don't think Cataclysm was anything special, by any stretch of the imagination, but it did bring fresh story, new races, and such to help satisfy old players that may be getting bored with Northrend. There has to be a bold new innovation that changes the gameplay to even hope to wrestle the number one position away from WOW. I honestly don't think SWTOR will do this, but time will tell, and I am looking forward to both of these games, since I'm not able to stomach WOW anymore.
I hope no exodus, the MMO comunity is bad enough as it is.
Heh, yeah. Got me too.
The fact as I see it is, you find time to play an mmo your paying for, you can play one you own forever whenever you want. Having owned GW1 since it launched I can tell you, I maybe played GW once a month if that often. I never felt guilty about it. I played my mmo's I was paying for dayly, why because I was paying money to play them and if I wasn't on I was wasting money.
Like others have said a B2P game typically won't cause someone to cancel their subscription account to their current MMO. No matter how many hours someone puts into test drive unlimited 2, or street fighter 4, or Dragon Age 2, or what ever other games people might be playing, they'll still be logging on (even if just to do a daily heroic) and tell their guildmates about how awesome game X is.
With no sub, there's no decision to be made other than, "do I want to purchase this game?" If yes, then you buy it and play whenever you want. B2P games will never be direct competition for P2P game customers.
unless they make the B2P game so amazingly fun, that people start to realize they haven't logged into their P2P for over a month.
I hope.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Hmm I see your point, but at the same time if you have subscription to a game that isn't fun, you cancel the subscription and stop playing, as I did with DC Universe and Global Agenda (before it went B2P). I think it changes depending on the person. I seriously doubt the majority of people even subconsciously decide to play a game simply based off of the fact that they're paying for it. It comes down to enjoyability and community.
Don't delude yourself people. Blizzard didn't mention GW2 because they know it won't have an affect on their playerbase. GW2 is just a fantasy based MMO in a sea of fantasy based MMO's. Whether GW2 will be any good is highly debatable, it will also bring in very few new players to the MMO genre...... Just look at all the fantasy based MMO's out there, do you really believe they are bringing in lots of new players to the genre? Don't kid yourself.
SWTOR has a great appeal to bring in new players to the MMO genre.... hell even at my work, there are console only players who are saying they want to get a computer so they can play SWTOR. SWTOR will have a much larger player base than GW2 just for the simple fact that it will bring in new players.