It failed to live up to it's own developer's hype. Anyone remember Allods.. and that dev's predictions? Conan..? all the same bro... Businessmen talking trash.
In 2011, any game will have 50K active subscribers and make the dev's money, thus keep the game above water & profitable... But, they aren't the same 50K people who stay, years on end. It's the 10+ million wow refugee's who revolve through that MMO's doors, all playing it 3 months at a time, thus making them multi-millionaires... thus making some other business man scheem up something else to excite you over... ie: another thempark with more amusment rides.
Hey everyone... run to the next rift...
Aion still has 40-50 servers, it has been at the number 1 spot since its release in Korea, the same country that already 10 years ago was responsible for most of the 1-2 million Lineage MMO gamers, apparently Aion generated revenues of 100-200+ million dollars last year and from what I understood it reported financial growth for the 3rd consecutive year.
I think other MMO companies would be happy to have this order of a 'fail', in fact most of the top MMO companies before WoW had significantly less to show as results.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Bro... "themepark" by it's nature means cheap MMO. It's a design process & something a developer's decides on before there is ever any code, etc.
So, yes when business men take advantage of unsuspecting younger people and try to bill (sell) their game as premium, then kids buy it, run through it in 6 months then complain... they should just know they shoul've paid alot less. For a gimmick...
You base your entire argument based on popularity. Again... McDonalds isn't the BEST burger... just the most popular. understand..?
Where are you getting your basis of arguments for this from? As much as something is more of a "theme park" MMO then something along the lines of say Everquest and UO (and yes, I played both a ton), how is it "cheap"? How is the design process lessened?
Compare a game like Everquest and WoW (even if you hate it). The amount of custom scripting, dialogue, art, sound/music from one to another in the development process is astonishing. How about the skill systems? The amount of depth stacked into the game compared to pre-AA EQ balancing is also in the same boat.
Yes, I have fond memories of both Everquest and Ultima Online, both had awesome things about them, but both were huge time sinks. I was back in school, I could log on and camp Lower Guk for 2 days straight for my FBSS and be okay with it. Now-days with a full time job, I can't give the level of commitment to the genre, and a lot of people can't either. Most people want to be able to hop in, get an enjoyable experience within an hour or two timeline and log for the night. Not all mind you, but the majority.
Think about it. How "in depth" was this code in Everquest? Most monsters were on static cycles placed around old ruins. The big roamers of the area followed a path and were balanced in a way that it was impossible to kill them if you weren't in their level range. Boss fights consisted of getting 40+ people together and just banging on one thing over and over and hoping the tank kept aggro. Code wise, the amount of scripting and server technology for these "theme park" MMOs that use things such as phasing and instancing are a LOT more intensive and in-depth then ever having something that was on a 12 hour spawn cycle and didn't always have a chance of spawning.
I'll always love the old school games (I played even back to the old AOL NWN days, that's how old school I am), but to say they are "cheaper" experiences isn't really truthful. They are more meant to be bite-sized experiences for the common person to hop in and play and feel like they accomplished something - not something where they wait for a camp group for 5 hours.
Bro... "themepark" by nature, means deliberately cheap mmo. It is a design decision made way before any coding, artwork or game is made. It based on how much profits and how little they want to code, to make a game.
So yes, I dislike what developers are doing to the younger generation, of making cheap mmo's, replaced by glits & glamour. Instead of a steadfast game world, where the inhibitants are free to adventure about and find their way.
The aphorism of "walking a mile in another man's mocassins" really applies here. I think your lack of familiarity with how much work goes into some of these games is what is leading you to such conclusions.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
lol what I have been getting a kick out of is even though a game was great before just because it has one bad expansion everyone gets on and starts tearing it apart from the beginning all the way to the end instead of being objective and saying wow they really screwed this one up maybe I'll sit this one out.
There are still succesful MMO's that are 12 years old so how can anyone say there are none? This is where everyone starts freaking out and saying where did all of the good MMOs go? Ummmm some of them never left...
Bro... "themepark" by nature, means deliberately cheap mmo. It is a design decision made way before any coding, artwork or game is made. It based on how much profits and how little they want to code, to make a game.
So yes, I dislike what developers are doing to the younger generation, of making cheap mmo's, replaced by glits & glamour. Instead of a steadfast game world, where the inhibitants are free to adventure about and find their way.
Nothing wrong with themepark MMO's, it's just that they are NOT premium games, thus shouldn't be charnging premium subscriptions. AION failed, because it was designed to look like a $14/month game, but was only a $4.99/month game. Same with all these wannabe up-start companies. QWuit trying to sell ur game as a premium game. If it's themepark, then it's $2.99 ~ $4.99.
Youn get what u pay for.
Wow~ I've been around MMOs for only a couple months and even I know the basics. Like what is a themepark MMO and being cheaply made and poorly coded isn't one of them. I mean just look at Rift, a game which had (I think) a $50 million budget and has it's own proprietary engine that allows Rift to have a large number of active players in the same area without DC'ing and quickly create content for those players (World Events). So by your definition Rift is a sandbox MMO but then earlier you called Rift an arcade game and quite frankly I don't recall any arcade games that play like Rift.
[Mod Edit]
lol...
You speak of game features and mechanics, but cannot differentiate what makes the game's features and what allows the developers to do new things. Unrelated to thempark status, or acrdade action... lol
You are a prime example of what you don't know. Rifts platform is arcade themepark (similiar to warhammer) They developed new server technology to allow for spotaneous in-game events. Instead of staged, or triggered like Warhammer's public quests. Other than that... nearly the same game with different spells and stylization.
Hmmmm and I thought the candy ore and fake flowers were just so gorgeous
Ok just saying..When a dragon swoops down in a raid or w/e, I dont get scared. I go "Ok the tanks going to hold aggro and make it face away from us so we can kill the dragon without it so much as taking a glance at the bunch of other people"
NOW
On Topic-
The MMO industry is doing fine. Quite a bit of these games have actually made their capital back. The only one that didnt was APB. Final Fantasy 14 was a bad game to me because of the bugs and general user unfriendliness of the game but that game actually made quite a bit of profit. Yes I said it FF14 = PROFIT.
Now think of that for a second and let that sink in.
MMOs arent failing. MMOs have been evolving and yes you may or may not see a new UO but theres always hope and theres always using the "get rich and fund your own dev team" method. Anothing thing is money and publishers control. If its not giving them enough profit and the publishers want to move to something more profitable. That doesnt mean the game wasnt making a profit and is losing money. It just means that its not giving them enough profit to fill the investors pockets and not that its causing them to lose money >.<
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni ( o.o) (")(") **This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
this isn't just some "sudden" act of negativity. people have been saying this for years. Now more people are saying the same thing. MMOs have obviously became 10x more popular and in that fact. That 10 times factor is speaking out about all the stuff they are tired about.
For those of us who are patient individuals our patience has run thin. And we are speaking out. Call us trolls. Call us haters. But we ultimately seem to be the only people who care.
None of the issues people have with MMO's today would matter if they weren't charging a 15 dollar monthly fee. Why would i pay the box fee and a monthly fee on a game I've already played or been playing.
Somewhere between now and a decade ago we lost the RP aspect of MMOs, and it looks to have happened shortly after WoW's freak success luring in the masses.
Maybe developers finaly realized 1 out of every 20 people actually role-play in RPG's. So now their concentrating on the MMO side of things which means more PvP interaction, competetive gameplay, and content that's more immersive in showing how you as the player are changing the world rather than how you as the player must act out their role and pretend things are happening around you when there actually not. If this is how MMORPG's are "dieing" then I guess I'm ok with them "dieing".
PvP and "competitive gameplay" does not an MMO make. It's this kind of thought that results in MMOs with meaningless, repetitive, boxed PvP matches.
As per "content that's more immersive in showing how you as the player are changing the world rather than how you as the player must act out their role and pretend things are happening around you when there actually not"...
Huh? If anything, MMO today are the exact antithesis to what you just said. In MMOs todaay, every single thing you do has virtually zero impact. Everything of meaning is instanced or phased, so only you on your character actually sees it. And even then, in many cases it just resets for you to do all over again. In the old MMOs, you as a player could actually make a meaningful impact on the game. Whether it was by effecting MOB spawns, creating buildings in the world that provided useful functions to other players (UO, SWG), crafting items that other players actually needed and wanted, etc.
MMOs are turning into single player games with lobbies. There's less and less need to interact with other players, let alone to depend on them. We've gone from expansive virtual worlds to explore and carve out your own little place, to poorly throught out quest-chain treadmills that give every single player the same "you're a hero!" experience. Sorry to say, but when everyone is a "hero" and does the exact same thing, no one is.
Yes because in old MMORPG's with that massively large playerbase that didn't exist it was much easier to group and be a part of the community. Everybody knew everybody and they all held hands on their boring rat killing quest adventures, how fun that must have been. Killing things over and over again and pretending that there was a good story behind why you were constantly grinding away.
Today's MMO's can show you how a story is supposed to play out (through phasing and instanced events) rather than tell you what your supposed to think is happening. I'm sorry but to me that's alot more entertaining then killing rats over and over and over again (but with my fellow group members) until I've killed enough to feel like I've somehow made an impact on the world.
As for effecting mob spawns, creating buildings and crafting, all of those still exist in modern sandboxes.
I'll let you in on a little secret.
The vast majority of those quests your doing now are the same olf grinding song and dance you're accusing older MMOs of being.
Kill 10x, collect 10y, bring z from point a to point b. It's all the same damn thing, and it's all sloppily thrown together with poorly written quest dialogue.
If you're truly playing to get a decent story, you'd be far, far better off playing a single player RPG where you actually get a half-decent story and your actions do actually have a real impact on the game world.
MMOs don't mesh with 'you're the hero' quest treadmill "storylines". The over reliance of instancing and phasing just to get it done is proof of that.
It's not a secret but thanks for trying. New MMO's do a wonderful job at deceiving the player though, much better than older MMORPG's. I certainly feel more immersed when a dragon swoops down and tries to eat me, rather than reading quest txt that says that's what happening, now imagine it.
lol...
Problem is, the dragon swooping down on u.. is all visual, not a threat. Just meant to entice you... another ride at a themepark. Coincidentally, In old school games, you'd run for you life if a griffon was comming, because he was DANGEROUS!
It's all visual until it lands and you start fighting it yes. It's nice that it's all visual too because in old school MMORPG's you'd either read that it's happening or have to imagine it yourself. Much more entertaining to watch it happen and isn't that what it's all about, entertainment. In old school games the only running you'd be doing is the running to the spot to kill it and then running back to turn in your quest.
lol.... *slaps knee*
Like someone else already told you... STOP MAKING STUFF UP..!
Ur trying to understand the context in which we speak and have no clear idea of what the alternative to "themepark" actually is/looks like, (open-ended world) ... thus u make up stories, for how TEXT was the dragon...lol We are talking about MMORPGs, not MUDS.
If a dragon is a stick figure, the only thing that changes over the years, is that now dragons look real.. but their bite & unmentionable abilities are missing. Thus, advanced tactics to overcome the challenge is gone. Dragon's today are gimped. But children and young adults SEE this awesome looking dragon, but don't see what is missing underneath, as to why they should be feared... not just eye candy to amuse you..
I was accused of trolling, so here is my idea on the topic: ready?
I think the the mmorpg's have been in decline since eq2 & wow. It was the beginning of the easy era. Even with hedged bets, a flop MMO still meant everyone got well paid and a sticker in their portfolio. Yes.. there were many pre-wow mmo deaths, who's technically couldn't overcome themselves (shadowbane, WISH, Horizons, Dark & Light, etc).. that are consider low points in the MMO history books. These newer developers (Conan, Aion, LOTR, DDO, Allods, etc & etc) have cheaper & cheaper technology. There is no excuse for such anemic games other than greed, specially with AAA titles, billing themselves as premium, & using old server structures/framework. Greed is good, apparently.
What those companies could have done with current technology, (so that the game worlds would've been unrestrictive, instead of this "zone" wall idea), seeing the easy route & utilizing this ultra-cheap structure, means even if the game flops, they still get rich... <--- that is why these developers/publisher keep going with "themepark derived" games.
(Why do u think Guild Wars business model is so unusual..? Follow it's tech)
THat..^^ (ie: greed) is the reason you also have a majority of "themepark" type games, because it's cheap IT. The same reason these Korean kung fu / anime (FtP) betas are all the rage. They proliferate because u can run the whole game on a $80K computer... lol. They just dazzle u with awesome animation and graphics, but there is absolutely no real depth to those "grinders". Can't be, they cannot process calculation of any magnitude like a server farm (hundreds of server blades, per server/shard). They just hide their cheapness real well... long enough to get 400,000 people to try it and buy one item-mall thing @ $2 ~3 bucks. In just 1 years time thats usually a million dollar jackpot for having only 1% of the WoW market fiddle with their game for only 7 weeks. "Hey it was free and only cost u a few bucks"... lol
Understand, all most these companies are doing, are not creating worlds, but essentially linking mismatched "zones" together. Usually they may try to funnel you all through a portal, or cave to the next zone (to zone into), because doing so dramatically cuts down on the developers cost. Because the data transfer is less dynamic (means less resources to manage) = less cost. Now multiply that funnel point x 20, 40..? (means bonus for CEO).
If they don't have premium IT solution, then they shouldn't charge a premium for their game. Peroid!
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Ok just saying..When a dragon swoops down in a raid or w/e, I dont get scared. I go "Ok the tanks going to hold aggro and make it face away from us so we can kill the dragon without it so much as taking a glance at the bunch of other people"
NOW
On Topic-
The MMO industry is doing fine. Quite a bit of these games have actually made their capital back. The only one that didnt was APB. Final Fantasy 14 was a bad game to me because of the bugs and general user unfriendliness of the game but that game actually made quite a bit of profit. Yes I said it FF14 = PROFIT.
Now think of that for a second and let that sink in.
MMOs arent failing. MMOs have been evolving and yes you may or may not see a new UO but theres always hope and theres always using the "get rich and fund your own dev team" method. Anothing thing is money and publishers control. If its not giving them enough profit and the publishers want to move to something more profitable. That doesnt mean the game wasnt making a profit and is losing money. It just means that its not giving them enough profit to fill the investors pockets and not that its causing them to lose money >.<
Actually FFXIV barely sold about 1 million copies world wide, at full price and hasn't charged a monthly fee to this day. So just like APB, it hasn't made a profit. Heck, the game even forced SquareEnix to post a projected 90% loss, for this fiscal year and it has been widely refered to as one of the most disappointing games in recent history.
But the failure of a few games does not equate to the failure of the industry and I hope that that 2011 will prove that.
I think some like myself just want to see more quality mmos released. Twenty mmos can be released within a year and only 1-2 actually be any good. The gaming industry in genral needs to stop mass producting mmos like McDonald's hamburgers. Sooner or later you are gonna start feeling sick.
I'm sorry, but if you can't see that games like Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, Firefall, ArcheAge and WoD, can offer a quality gameplay experience then I fear that you've lost touch with MMO's and they you might have grown out of it.
I'm currently playing Rift, it is not an improvement in the genre regardless how many people like it. SWTOR, GW2 and all the rest "might" turn out to be the 2nd coming of MMORPG gaming, but if history is any indicator of future success then that's not the way to bet.
Perhaps I'm a burnt-out, grumpy old gamer but on the same token many folks come off as a wide eyed, fanboyish optimists who can't see the forest for the trees sometimes, or the tell tale signs of more of the same.
So while I hope your predictions are correct, because I'd love to see a great game come along, and its likely I'll play most of the game you listed above, I'll still consider the genre in decline and go so far as to predict a large scale implosion in the next five years and a huge scaling back to a more saner time.
How old are you? let me guess 40? and you have been playing MMOs from time of UO? how fair is it to say that MMO genre is on decline? what about the new generation of gamer who are just starting out and there first MMO could be Rift or say SWTOR? sorry man but you have completely lost perspective on this one. MMOS have evolved and changed a lot with times and the newer people who are discovering MMO genre on daily basis could care less what happy times you had back in 90's.
If anything MMO industry is growing and investing bigger bucks and getting hugely popular a lot more than in 'your' days. I wish people stop confusing their own dislikes for current MMOS with decline in MMO industry as a whole. MMORPGS have gone main stream now, and when more and more players are going to get invovled some very big changes are bound to happen to accomodate all of theese new generation of players.
I also find it ironic (not you in particular) that a lot of people on these forums insult WOW players and younger gamers in general as if being 16 years old and playing games is something un natural. Terms like 'kiddies'; the 'todays younger generation' are used to blame them for all that is wrong with MMO gaming today. And yet they forget the age they started playing games and somehow live in illussion that they were a lot smarter and unique indivduals with better taste.
It failed to live up to it's own developer's hype. Anyone remember Allods.. and that dev's predictions? Conan..? all the same bro... Businessmen talking trash.
In 2011, any game will have 50K active subscribers and make the dev's money, thus keep the game above water & profitable... But, they aren't the same 50K people who stay, years on end. It's the 10+ million wow refugee's who revolve through that MMO's doors, all playing it 3 months at a time, thus making them multi-millionaires... thus making some other business man scheem up something else to excite you over... ie: another thempark with more amusment rides.
Hey everyone... run to the next rift...
Aion still has 40-50 servers, it has been at the number 1 spot since its release in Korea, the same country that already 10 years ago was responsible for most of the 1-2 million Lineage MMO gamers, apparently Aion generated revenues of 100-200+ million dollars last year and from what I understood it reported financial growth for the 3rd consecutive year.
I think other MMO companies would be happy to have this order of a 'fail', in fact most of the top MMO companies before WoW had significantly less to show as results.
If it doesn't sell well here in the US (and to a lesser extent Europe), we don't care.
But the truth is, right now, we don't care about how well its selling anywhere, doesn't make these modern MMORPGs good games regardless how many folks purchase them.
Does it make the companies financially successful? Apparently so, and to some folks (certainly those who fund them) this is enough.
But does it make any of them a great MMORPG? (aka virtual world) Hardly, and that's the type of failure we're talking about here.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Aion still has 40-50 servers, it has been at the number 1 spot since its release in Korea, the same country that already 10 years ago was responsible for most of the 1-2 million Lineage MMO gamers, apparently Aion generated revenues of 100-200+ million dollars last year and from what I understood it reported financial growth for the 3rd consecutive year.
I think other MMO companies would be happy to have this order of a 'fail', in fact most of the top MMO companies before WoW had significantly less to show as results.
If it doesn't sell well here in the US (and to a lesser extent Europe), we don't care.
But the truth is, right now, we don't care about how well its selling anywhere, doesn't make these modern MMORPGs good games regardless how many folks purchase them.
Does it make the companies financially successful? Apparently so, and to some folks (certainly those who fund them) this is enough.
But does it make any of them a great MMORPG? (aka virtual world) Hardly, and that's the type of failure we're talking about here.
All too true, a lot of people think in that way, 'if it isn't a success in America, then it's a fail everywhere'. However, ignoring that it generates a hell of a lot more revenues than as good as any other MMO besides WoW and still has more players than most other MMO games is a sign of extreme shortsightedness and 'head in the sand' behaviour.
As for, are they great MMORPG's? That's a very subjective thing. I'm pretty certain that there are a lot of people think that WoW isn't a great game. Does that make WoW a fail? Yes, it does to them.
Other people think Xsyon and SWG, before the big change a lot of vets keep complaining about, are great MMO's. Are they wrong? No, to them they were great games. However, to a lot more people they're not.
So, when you use 'fail' by that kind of definition instead of hard figures, then it becomes very subjective.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
this isn't just some "sudden" act of negativity. people have been saying this for years. Now more people are saying the same thing. MMOs have obviously became 10x more popular and in that fact. That 10 times factor is speaking out about all the stuff they are tired about.
For those of us who are patient individuals our patience has run thin. And we are speaking out. Call us trolls. Call us haters. But we ultimately seem to be the only people who care.
None of the issues people have with MMO's today would matter if they weren't charging a 15 dollar monthly fee. Why would i pay the box fee and a monthly fee on a game I've already played or been playing.
Then rejoice. A lot of MMOs are going F2P. Not only there is no sub fee, there is no box fee. So i guess none of these issues should matter now for all the free MMOs.
I think some like myself just want to see more quality mmos released. Twenty mmos can be released within a year and only 1-2 actually be any good. The gaming industry in genral needs to stop mass producting mmos like McDonald's hamburgers. Sooner or later you are gonna start feeling sick.
I'm sorry, but if you can't see that games like Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, Firefall, ArcheAge and WoD, can offer a quality gameplay experience then I fear that you've lost touch with MMO's and they you might have grown out of it.
I'm currently playing Rift, it is not an improvement in the genre regardless how many people like it. SWTOR, GW2 and all the rest "might" turn out to be the 2nd coming of MMORPG gaming, but if history is any indicator of future success then that's not the way to bet.
Perhaps I'm a burnt-out, grumpy old gamer but on the same token many folks come off as a wide eyed, fanboyish optimists who can't see the forest for the trees sometimes, or the tell tale signs of more of the same.
So while I hope your predictions are correct, because I'd love to see a great game come along, and its likely I'll play most of the game you listed above, I'll still consider the genre in decline and go so far as to predict a large scale implosion in the next five years and a huge scaling back to a more saner time.
How old are you? let me guess 40? and you have been playing MMOs from time of UO? how fair is it to say that MMO genre is on decline? what about the new generation of gamer who are just starting out and there first MMO could be Rift or say SWTOR? sorry man but you have completely lost perspective on this one. MMOS have evolved and changed a lot with times and the newer people who are discovering MMO genre on daily basis could care less what happy times you had back in 90's.
If anything MMO industry is growing and investing bigger bucks and getting hugely popular a lot more than in 'your' days. I wish people stop confusing their own dislikes for current MMOS with decline in MMO industry as a whole. MMORPGS have gone main stream now, and when more and more players are going to get invovled some very big changes are bound to happen to accomodate all of theese new generation of players.
I also find it ironic (not you in particular) that a lot of people on these forums insult WOW players and younger gamers in general as if being 16 years old and playing games is something un natural. Terms like 'kiddies'; the 'todays younger generation' are used to blame them for all that is wrong with MMO gaming today. And yet they forget the age they started playing games and somehow live in illussion that they were a lot smarter and unique indivduals with better taste.
How ironic.
Very astute my young friend, (I'm 53 btw and didnt start playing MMORPGs until Lineage 1) and you've managed to nail it on the head. It is the very act of mainstreaming that while it made MMO's more popular and financially successful, ruined them as virtual worlds and all I can say is you don't realize what you missed and probably will be a lot happier for it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Aion still has 40-50 servers, it has been at the number 1 spot since its release in Korea, the same country that already 10 years ago was responsible for most of the 1-2 million Lineage MMO gamers, apparently Aion generated revenues of 100-200+ million dollars last year and from what I understood it reported financial growth for the 3rd consecutive year.
I think other MMO companies would be happy to have this order of a 'fail', in fact most of the top MMO companies before WoW had significantly less to show as results.
If it doesn't sell well here in the US (and to a lesser extent Europe), we don't care.
But the truth is, right now, we don't care about how well its selling anywhere, doesn't make these modern MMORPGs good games regardless how many folks purchase them.
Does it make the companies financially successful? Apparently so, and to some folks (certainly those who fund them) this is enough.
But does it make any of them a great MMORPG? (aka virtual world) Hardly, and that's the type of failure we're talking about here.
All too true, a lot of people think in that way, 'if it isn't a success in America, then it's a fail everywhere'. However, ignoring that it generates a hell of a lot more revenues than as good as any other MMO besides WoW and still has more players than most other MMO games is a sign of extreme shortsightedness and 'head in the sand' behaviour.
As for, are they great MMORPG's? That's a very subjective thing. I'm pretty certain that there are a lot of people think that WoW isn't a great game. Does that make WoW a fail? Yes, it does to them.
Other people think Xsyon and SWG, before the big change a lot of vets keep complaining about, are great MMO's. Are they wrong? No, to them they were great games. However, to a lot more people they're not.
So, when you use 'fail' by that kind of definition instead of hard figures, then it becomes very subjective.
Would it surprise you to know that two of my more favorite MMO's are Lineage 1 and 2? Both were better MMO's IMO than the games being passed around today. (I don't include WOW in that list btw)
You might think I'm being subjective when I say the older MMO's were far richer and in depth than today's MMO's, and if I wasn't tired (and I had my own thread) I'd take the time to compare one title, DAOC against any modern MMORPG you'd care to name and detail about a dozen features that make the difference between greatness and just being average.
And while somone might say Xyson's a great game, they are being entirely subjective because feature wise the game is lacking, not subjective at all, just simple facts in that example. (as compared to a game like EVE or even DF)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
To all of these MMO veterans that think every modern game has failed, keep in mind that it hasn't failed just because your not playing it.
LOL, and to all these younger MMO players just because you are playing it doesn't mean you're playing a good MMORPG, you just don't realize what you missed.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
To all of these MMO veterans that think every modern game has failed, keep in mind that it hasn't failed just because your not playing it.
LOL, and to all these younger MMO players just because you are playing it doesn't mean you're playing a good MMORPG, you just don't realize what you missed.
Cheers
Unfortunately, it's hard to miss what you've never had. How can one imagine a magnificently grilled steak having grown up with a diet of stale hooves and ears. It's not happening
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Would it surprise you to know that two of my more favorite MMO's are Lineage 1 and 2? Both were better MMO's IMO than the games being passed around today. (I don't include WOW in that list btw)
You might think I'm being subjective when I say the older MMO's were far richer and in depth than today's MMO's, and if I wasn't tired (and I had my own thread) I'd take the time to compare one title, DAOC against any modern MMORPG you'd care to name and detail about a dozen features that make the difference between greatness and just being average.
And while somone might say Xyson's a great game, they are being entirely subjective because feature wise the game is lacking, not subjective at all, just simple facts in that example. (as compared to a game like EVE or even DF)
Here you go again, taking an in itself subjective opinion as starting point and elevating it to a General Truth. Tsk, you should know better by now, don't you think?
What is considered great or not, is for the most part very subjective and different from one person to the next.
To you, those older MMO's were great and better than current MMO's, because they applied more to what you were looking for in an MMO. To others, they were not, and if the new post-WoW generation of MMO gamers would give a number of them a try now or as they were 1-2 years after their launch and compare them with the newer MMO's they've played, from an EQ to DAoC to AC to SWG, I doubt they would be that impressed and would switch right away to those older MMO's. In fact, I'm pretty certain that most of them would kindly or not so kindly thank for the offer and refrain.
Not that those old MMO's were bad, I certainly don't think so. But different MMO gamers are looking for different things in their MMORPG.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Would it surprise you to know that two of my more favorite MMO's are Lineage 1 and 2? Both were better MMO's IMO than the games being passed around today. (I don't include WOW in that list btw)
You might think I'm being subjective when I say the older MMO's were far richer and in depth than today's MMO's, and if I wasn't tired (and I had my own thread) I'd take the time to compare one title, DAOC against any modern MMORPG you'd care to name and detail about a dozen features that make the difference between greatness and just being average.
And while somone might say Xyson's a great game, they are being entirely subjective because feature wise the game is lacking, not subjective at all, just simple facts in that example. (as compared to a game like EVE or even DF)
Here you go again, taking an in itself subjective opinion as starting point and elevating it to a General Truth. Tsk, you should know better by now, don't you think?
What is considered great or not, is for the most part very subjective and different from one person to the next.
To you, those older MMO's were great and better than current MMO's, because they applied more to what you were looking for in an MMO. To others, they were not, and if the new post-WoW generation of MMO gamers would give a number of them a try now or as they were 1-2 years after their launch and compare them with the newer MMO's they've played, from an EQ to DAoC to AC to SWG, I doubt they would be that impressed and would switch right away to those older MMO's. In fact, I'm pretty certain that most of them would kindly or not so kindly thank for the offer and refrain.
Not that those old MMO's were bad, I certainly don't think so. But different MMO gamers are looking for different things in their MMORPG.
That is wholly false...^^
You base your ideas that way, because you have not listened to what us historians are telling you. Gameplay and game mechanics were vastly deeper and more diverse than today's games. New games hide those flaws behind animations, or graphics.. or simple don't hid them anymore, because people like you don't even understand what missing in generic NPC encounters as regards to mechanics.
You hide behind that veil of "MMO Maverick" but your title is farthest from the truth. You assume to know what people want, but dismiss that depth of character cannot be what these newer players are yearning, because it is certainly what us older players are begging for again, just with 10 year newer server technology than EQ/DAOC, etc.. (ie: modernise the adult MMOs)
Many of the WoW kids are grown up, they are ready for an in-depth, multi-faceted encounters again... since wow dumb-down the market.
Again, players are yearning for diversity from one another, not this washed up culture of armor sets and tiered armor (how convienant for devs) People want to get into their roles of character and that starts with being able to be DIFFERENT. The carrot on the stick is getting old for them. Ie: wearing the same armor set as the umpteenth next dude.
But what about wearing something nobody ever saw before, etc.
Maverick, you eschew mediocrity in everyone of ur posts.... common denominator mmorpg's are YOUR thing, there are many others that wont let premium MMO die, understand?
So go play WoW or Rift & let us old schoolers alone. Perhaps one day you'll crawl out of the nest & attempt to tread out on ur own, instead of follow the safe path that the next million people behind you will. Safety in number is ur portfolio, it's laughable.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Would it surprise you to know that two of my more favorite MMO's are Lineage 1 and 2? Both were better MMO's IMO than the games being passed around today. (I don't include WOW in that list btw)
You might think I'm being subjective when I say the older MMO's were far richer and in depth than today's MMO's, and if I wasn't tired (and I had my own thread) I'd take the time to compare one title, DAOC against any modern MMORPG you'd care to name and detail about a dozen features that make the difference between greatness and just being average.
And while somone might say Xyson's a great game, they are being entirely subjective because feature wise the game is lacking, not subjective at all, just simple facts in that example. (as compared to a game like EVE or even DF)
Here you go again, taking an in itself subjective opinion as starting point and elevating it to a General Truth. Tsk, you should know better by now, don't you think?
What is considered great or not, is for the most part very subjective and different from one person to the next.
To you, those older MMO's were great and better than current MMO's, because they applied more to what you were looking for in an MMO. To others, they were not, and if the new post-WoW generation of MMO gamers would give a number of them a try now or as they were 1-2 years after their launch and compare them with the newer MMO's they've played, from an EQ to DAoC to AC to SWG, I doubt they would be that impressed and would switch right away to those older MMO's. In fact, I'm pretty certain that most of them would kindly or not so kindly thank for the offer and refrain.
Not that those old MMO's were bad, I certainly don't think so. But different MMO gamers are looking for different things in their MMORPG.
When Facebook games gobble up the new school gamers dreams, you'll taste the burn of irony in the back of your throat.
To all of these MMO veterans that think every modern game has failed, keep in mind that it hasn't failed just because your not playing it.
LOL, and to all these younger MMO players just because you are playing it doesn't mean you're playing a good MMORPG, you just don't realize what you missed.
Cheers
Unfortunately, it's hard to miss what you've never had. How can one imagine a magnificently grilled steak having grown up with a diet of stale hooves and ears. It's not happening
You guys act like all these games you played "back in the day" aren't available anymore. More than half of them are, through private servers or their just still there. Stop calling yourselves historians because you played a few games 10 years ago, it just sound rediculous. These games are still around.
You havn't exprienced anything different than I have. I've played EQ and UO. Compared to the amount of polish and balance that today's MMO's offer, these games fall apart. But that's really no suprise because the budget for most of today's average MMO's is much higher than it was back then. So I'm sorry that you all grew up on "a diet of stale hooves and ears" and are now accustomed to that taste but I think I'll sit back and enjoy my fresh new steak while you all QQ at how bad it tastes.
Cheers =]
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Meh... That statement of you in itself is false, mate
You base your ideas that way, because you have not listened to what us historians are telling you.
You're not really acting as historian, reading from your arguments more as a pretender or historian wannabe, the way you try to lend more 'weight' to your statements by saying that you're a historian. More so, the fact that you keep repeating "I am an historian, I am an historian" points towards this craving of looking to be more. Shrug. Arguments when solid and good should stand on their own, and if they're good, then they can. Any claim of 'being a historian, or being this or that' is all just pretentious wannabe stuff, things people say to make themselves feel more than they really are.
Gameplay and game mechanics were vastly deeper and more diverse than today's games. New games hide those flaws behind animations, or graphics.. or simple don't hid them anymore, because people like you don't even understand what missing in generic NPC encounters as regards to mechanics.
Lol. You've no understanding at all what sort of people I am, your attempt to categorize me is hilarious in itself. But keep trying, mate
(snips)
Again, players are yearning for diversity from one another, not this washed up culture of armor sets and tiered armor (how convienant for devs) People want to get into their roles of character and that starts with being able to be DIFFERENT. Ah, projection.... gotta love it when you see it The carrot on the stick is getting old for them. Ie: wearing the same armor set as the umpteenth next dude.
But what about wearing something nobody ever saw before, etc.
Maverick, you eschew mediocrity in everyone of ur posts.... common denominator mmorpg's are YOUR thing, there are many others that wont let premium MMO die, understand? Yawn... oh, lol, another totally wrong assumption again, I was already waiting when the next ad hominem was coming. Heh.
So go play WoW or Rift & let us old schoolers alone. Perhaps one day you'll crawl out of the nest & attempt to tread out on ur own, instead of follow the safe path that the next million people behind you will. Safety in number is ur portfolio, it's laughable.
A lot of blabla and wrong assumptions, that's what I read in the largest part of it.
I have no issue at all with oldschool games. It's the nonstop whining of oldschool/sandbox elitists with their tunnelvision that dismisses everything that doesn't fit their very limited taste in MMO's that I find annoying, and then amusing, and then hilarious, and then annoying again. No offense .
But hey, at least it leads to fun (at least for me) and neverending discussions where I get to poke and prick through the pretentious assumptions and flawed reasoning whenever I see it, so in the end fun for all to be had while forum debating.
Originally posted by Arcken
When Facebook games gobble up the new school gamers dreams, you'll taste the burn of irony in the back of your throat.
'And then you'll know that we were Right. We were right, you fools!'
... oh sorry, I just couldn't resist.
Wrong interpretation, mate, I'm already tasting the irony in this whole debate, and I find it hilarious and a great laugh, the way how some people are drawing wrong conclusions, in their 'grumpy old men vs whippersnappers' way
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Ok here is an opinion from someone who has played rpgs from the beginning and started with Atari, sega etc... And I have played WoW. No I did not get to play MMOs because I was too poor to afford a computer and when I was young there were a lot more important things in my life than video games when Atari came out we got to play once a weekend. After all of the chores were done and everything else.
WoW had awesome questing until Cataclysm, Now I have heard the the new quests from level 1-60 are great but the thing is it that it is all mainstreamed and after so many alts burnout is almost innevitable. You can not avoid it because they put nothing else in to do. It's either all farm and sell so I can be rich or farm for the guild so we can dungeon and raid. Oh wait archeology, hmmm Idk I know it was after a few month break I went back about a month before Cata adn within 3 months after Cata came out I was burnt out again....
WoW was most definately a younger generation game in a lot of ways. Not that some of us older ones did not enjoy the quests but they run out..... I have loremaster from before Cata and for Cata. The original loremaster actually took time. It was not an easy grind and if you like lore there was nothing wrong with going back and doing everything. I came into WoW just in time to miss out on BC. I went back after playing Wotlk so I could experience the game as a whole because that is the kind or game player I am. I don't like missing content. I thoroughly enjoyed doing all of the BC stuff much more of a grind than Wotlk especially after they made everything easymode as far as farming rep went in Wotlk.
IMO where it went wrong with not putting anything in for sidelining during downtime or just needing to relax and enjoy playing a game. Sure I could have gone back and leveld an alt through the new quests. Infact I tried and all I could do everytime I logged in on that alt was stare at the screen.
I have never had an issue making friends before in my life until I played on WoW. It was like stepping onto the twighlight zone of junior highschool. Everyone made fun of each other especially if they were seen as mediocre. Tradechat was not even tradechat it was a mainstream troll line. Once LFG came into play that was all that tradechat ever was anymore. And I have heard that WoW does not have a community issue......... I hate to say this but when you have an MMO full of people no matter what age they are acting like junior high kids you most definately have community issues.
Now as far as I can see and I played 3 months into Cata all that is left is people constantly putting each other down for what they can't do right. You use lfg and get into a heroic and people go as far as the boss they want loot from and then ditch out on the rest of the group, Call each other names, vote to kick someone right before the last boss so that they can bring someone from their guild on that server in or so you can't roll on a soulbound orb..... These are most definatley communication issues and if you will notice the word community is in communication, not lets verbally abuse everyone else so we can feel good about ourselves and make them feel like crap. This is why WoW has community problems.
Everyone had loremaster of Cata within a few weeks or less than 2 months, I was exhalted with every rep within a couple of months. So if they had 10 max level characters there was nothing else left.
IMO WoW was not a bad game when it first came out niether was the lore. Cataclysm itself however has gone WAY downhill. Almost everyone is done with the content other than raids and they ahve not even put out a content patch for new quests or anything. And all they are putting in the next is level 18-20 quests not max level unless the patch notes have changes within the last week.
All I have ever seen them do outside of dungeons as far as adding content during an expansion is mess with everyone's classes so that everyone freaks out and constantly gripes and complains. That is all you ever hear on that game is the gripes about how they are nerfing my class in the next patch or expansion. Not hey guys lets go do this or go do that or lets just have fun and relax. And yet they keep paying and playing and do nothing but gripe and complain LOL.
These are all of course observations I have made and whether or not enyone wants to go play it is up to them for me my accounts have been shut off for over a month already and I am getting sick and tired about hearing about it in almost every thread on the forum. That is exactly one of the reasons I left. Either go or get off the pot one or the other.......
IMO WoW was not a bad game when it first came out niether was the lore. Cataclysm itself however has gone WAY downhill. Almost everyone is done with the content other than raids and they ahve not even put out a content patch for new quests or anything. And all they are putting in the next is level 18-20 quests not max level unless the patch notes have changes within the last week.
All I have ever seen them do outside of dungeons as far as adding content during an expansion is mess with everyone's classes so that everyone freaks out and constantly gripes and complains. That is all you ever hear on that game is the gripes about how they are nerfing my class in the next patch or expansion. Not hey guys lets go do this or go do that or lets just have fun and relax. And yet they keep paying and playing and do nothing but gripe and complain LOL.
These are all of course observations I have made and whether or not enyone wants to go play it is up to them for me my accounts have been shut off for over a month already and I am getting sick and tired about hearing about it in almost every thread on the forum. That is exactly one of the reasons I left. Either go or get off the pot one or the other.......
Wrong. Two new dungeons, and a bunch of new (non-daily) quests are avaiable this week.
Would it surprise you to know that two of my more favorite MMO's are Lineage 1 and 2? Both were better MMO's IMO than the games being passed around today. (I don't include WOW in that list btw)
You might think I'm being subjective when I say the older MMO's were far richer and in depth than today's MMO's, and if I wasn't tired (and I had my own thread) I'd take the time to compare one title, DAOC against any modern MMORPG you'd care to name and detail about a dozen features that make the difference between greatness and just being average.
And while somone might say Xyson's a great game, they are being entirely subjective because feature wise the game is lacking, not subjective at all, just simple facts in that example. (as compared to a game like EVE or even DF)
Here you go again, taking an in itself subjective opinion as starting point and elevating it to a General Truth. Tsk, you should know better by now, don't you think?
What is considered great or not, is for the most part very subjective and different from one person to the next.
To you, those older MMO's were great and better than current MMO's, because they applied more to what you were looking for in an MMO. To others, they were not, and if the new post-WoW generation of MMO gamers would give a number of them a try now or as they were 1-2 years after their launch and compare them with the newer MMO's they've played, from an EQ to DAoC to AC to SWG, I doubt they would be that impressed and would switch right away to those older MMO's. In fact, I'm pretty certain that most of them would kindly or not so kindly thank for the offer and refrain.
Not that those old MMO's were bad, I certainly don't think so. But different MMO gamers are looking for different things in their MMORPG.
You, sir, need to pack up your open-mindedness and tolerance for other playstyles and get the frack off our forums. Go peddle your 'great is subjective' voodoo elsewhere!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
Aion still has 40-50 servers, it has been at the number 1 spot since its release in Korea, the same country that already 10 years ago was responsible for most of the 1-2 million Lineage MMO gamers, apparently Aion generated revenues of 100-200+ million dollars last year and from what I understood it reported financial growth for the 3rd consecutive year.
I think other MMO companies would be happy to have this order of a 'fail', in fact most of the top MMO companies before WoW had significantly less to show as results.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Where are you getting your basis of arguments for this from? As much as something is more of a "theme park" MMO then something along the lines of say Everquest and UO (and yes, I played both a ton), how is it "cheap"? How is the design process lessened?
Compare a game like Everquest and WoW (even if you hate it). The amount of custom scripting, dialogue, art, sound/music from one to another in the development process is astonishing. How about the skill systems? The amount of depth stacked into the game compared to pre-AA EQ balancing is also in the same boat.
Yes, I have fond memories of both Everquest and Ultima Online, both had awesome things about them, but both were huge time sinks. I was back in school, I could log on and camp Lower Guk for 2 days straight for my FBSS and be okay with it. Now-days with a full time job, I can't give the level of commitment to the genre, and a lot of people can't either. Most people want to be able to hop in, get an enjoyable experience within an hour or two timeline and log for the night. Not all mind you, but the majority.
Think about it. How "in depth" was this code in Everquest? Most monsters were on static cycles placed around old ruins. The big roamers of the area followed a path and were balanced in a way that it was impossible to kill them if you weren't in their level range. Boss fights consisted of getting 40+ people together and just banging on one thing over and over and hoping the tank kept aggro. Code wise, the amount of scripting and server technology for these "theme park" MMOs that use things such as phasing and instancing are a LOT more intensive and in-depth then ever having something that was on a 12 hour spawn cycle and didn't always have a chance of spawning.
I'll always love the old school games (I played even back to the old AOL NWN days, that's how old school I am), but to say they are "cheaper" experiences isn't really truthful. They are more meant to be bite-sized experiences for the common person to hop in and play and feel like they accomplished something - not something where they wait for a camp group for 5 hours.
The aphorism of "walking a mile in another man's mocassins" really applies here. I think your lack of familiarity with how much work goes into some of these games is what is leading you to such conclusions.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
lol what I have been getting a kick out of is even though a game was great before just because it has one bad expansion everyone gets on and starts tearing it apart from the beginning all the way to the end instead of being objective and saying wow they really screwed this one up maybe I'll sit this one out.
There are still succesful MMO's that are 12 years old so how can anyone say there are none? This is where everyone starts freaking out and saying where did all of the good MMOs go? Ummmm some of them never left...
Hmmmm and I thought the candy ore and fake flowers were just so gorgeous
Ok just saying..When a dragon swoops down in a raid or w/e, I dont get scared. I go "Ok the tanks going to hold aggro and make it face away from us so we can kill the dragon without it so much as taking a glance at the bunch of other people"
NOW
On Topic-
The MMO industry is doing fine. Quite a bit of these games have actually made their capital back. The only one that didnt was APB. Final Fantasy 14 was a bad game to me because of the bugs and general user unfriendliness of the game but that game actually made quite a bit of profit. Yes I said it FF14 = PROFIT.
Now think of that for a second and let that sink in.
MMOs arent failing. MMOs have been evolving and yes you may or may not see a new UO but theres always hope and theres always using the "get rich and fund your own dev team" method. Anothing thing is money and publishers control. If its not giving them enough profit and the publishers want to move to something more profitable. That doesnt mean the game wasnt making a profit and is losing money. It just means that its not giving them enough profit to fill the investors pockets and not that its causing them to lose money >.<
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
( o.o)
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**This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
this isn't just some "sudden" act of negativity. people have been saying this for years. Now more people are saying the same thing. MMOs have obviously became 10x more popular and in that fact. That 10 times factor is speaking out about all the stuff they are tired about.
For those of us who are patient individuals our patience has run thin. And we are speaking out. Call us trolls. Call us haters. But we ultimately seem to be the only people who care.
None of the issues people have with MMO's today would matter if they weren't charging a 15 dollar monthly fee. Why would i pay the box fee and a monthly fee on a game I've already played or been playing.
lol.... *slaps knee*
Like someone else already told you... STOP MAKING STUFF UP..!
Ur trying to understand the context in which we speak and have no clear idea of what the alternative to "themepark" actually is/looks like, (open-ended world) ... thus u make up stories, for how TEXT was the dragon...lol We are talking about MMORPGs, not MUDS.
If a dragon is a stick figure, the only thing that changes over the years, is that now dragons look real.. but their bite & unmentionable abilities are missing. Thus, advanced tactics to overcome the challenge is gone. Dragon's today are gimped. But children and young adults SEE this awesome looking dragon, but don't see what is missing underneath, as to why they should be feared... not just eye candy to amuse you..
I was accused of trolling, so here is my idea on the topic: ready?
I think the the mmorpg's have been in decline since eq2 & wow. It was the beginning of the easy era. Even with hedged bets, a flop MMO still meant everyone got well paid and a sticker in their portfolio. Yes.. there were many pre-wow mmo deaths, who's technically couldn't overcome themselves (shadowbane, WISH, Horizons, Dark & Light, etc).. that are consider low points in the MMO history books. These newer developers (Conan, Aion, LOTR, DDO, Allods, etc & etc) have cheaper & cheaper technology. There is no excuse for such anemic games other than greed, specially with AAA titles, billing themselves as premium, & using old server structures/framework. Greed is good, apparently.
What those companies could have done with current technology, (so that the game worlds would've been unrestrictive, instead of this "zone" wall idea), seeing the easy route & utilizing this ultra-cheap structure, means even if the game flops, they still get rich... <--- that is why these developers/publisher keep going with "themepark derived" games.
(Why do u think Guild Wars business model is so unusual..? Follow it's tech)
THat..^^ (ie: greed) is the reason you also have a majority of "themepark" type games, because it's cheap IT. The same reason these Korean kung fu / anime (FtP) betas are all the rage. They proliferate because u can run the whole game on a $80K computer... lol. They just dazzle u with awesome animation and graphics, but there is absolutely no real depth to those "grinders". Can't be, they cannot process calculation of any magnitude like a server farm (hundreds of server blades, per server/shard). They just hide their cheapness real well... long enough to get 400,000 people to try it and buy one item-mall thing @ $2 ~3 bucks. In just 1 years time thats usually a million dollar jackpot for having only 1% of the WoW market fiddle with their game for only 7 weeks. "Hey it was free and only cost u a few bucks"... lol
Understand, all most these companies are doing, are not creating worlds, but essentially linking mismatched "zones" together. Usually they may try to funnel you all through a portal, or cave to the next zone (to zone into), because doing so dramatically cuts down on the developers cost. Because the data transfer is less dynamic (means less resources to manage) = less cost. Now multiply that funnel point x 20, 40..? (means bonus for CEO).
If they don't have premium IT solution, then they shouldn't charge a premium for their game. Peroid!
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Actually FFXIV barely sold about 1 million copies world wide, at full price and hasn't charged a monthly fee to this day. So just like APB, it hasn't made a profit. Heck, the game even forced SquareEnix to post a projected 90% loss, for this fiscal year and it has been widely refered to as one of the most disappointing games in recent history.
But the failure of a few games does not equate to the failure of the industry and I hope that that 2011 will prove that.
How old are you? let me guess 40? and you have been playing MMOs from time of UO? how fair is it to say that MMO genre is on decline? what about the new generation of gamer who are just starting out and there first MMO could be Rift or say SWTOR? sorry man but you have completely lost perspective on this one. MMOS have evolved and changed a lot with times and the newer people who are discovering MMO genre on daily basis could care less what happy times you had back in 90's.
If anything MMO industry is growing and investing bigger bucks and getting hugely popular a lot more than in 'your' days. I wish people stop confusing their own dislikes for current MMOS with decline in MMO industry as a whole. MMORPGS have gone main stream now, and when more and more players are going to get invovled some very big changes are bound to happen to accomodate all of theese new generation of players.
I also find it ironic (not you in particular) that a lot of people on these forums insult WOW players and younger gamers in general as if being 16 years old and playing games is something un natural. Terms like 'kiddies'; the 'todays younger generation' are used to blame them for all that is wrong with MMO gaming today. And yet they forget the age they started playing games and somehow live in illussion that they were a lot smarter and unique indivduals with better taste.
How ironic.
If it doesn't sell well here in the US (and to a lesser extent Europe), we don't care.
But the truth is, right now, we don't care about how well its selling anywhere, doesn't make these modern MMORPGs good games regardless how many folks purchase them.
Does it make the companies financially successful? Apparently so, and to some folks (certainly those who fund them) this is enough.
But does it make any of them a great MMORPG? (aka virtual world) Hardly, and that's the type of failure we're talking about here.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All too true, a lot of people think in that way, 'if it isn't a success in America, then it's a fail everywhere'. However, ignoring that it generates a hell of a lot more revenues than as good as any other MMO besides WoW and still has more players than most other MMO games is a sign of extreme shortsightedness and 'head in the sand' behaviour.
As for, are they great MMORPG's? That's a very subjective thing. I'm pretty certain that there are a lot of people think that WoW isn't a great game. Does that make WoW a fail? Yes, it does to them.
Other people think Xsyon and SWG, before the big change a lot of vets keep complaining about, are great MMO's. Are they wrong? No, to them they were great games. However, to a lot more people they're not.
So, when you use 'fail' by that kind of definition instead of hard figures, then it becomes very subjective.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Then rejoice. A lot of MMOs are going F2P. Not only there is no sub fee, there is no box fee. So i guess none of these issues should matter now for all the free MMOs.
Very astute my young friend, (I'm 53 btw and didnt start playing MMORPGs until Lineage 1) and you've managed to nail it on the head. It is the very act of mainstreaming that while it made MMO's more popular and financially successful, ruined them as virtual worlds and all I can say is you don't realize what you missed and probably will be a lot happier for it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Would it surprise you to know that two of my more favorite MMO's are Lineage 1 and 2? Both were better MMO's IMO than the games being passed around today. (I don't include WOW in that list btw)
You might think I'm being subjective when I say the older MMO's were far richer and in depth than today's MMO's, and if I wasn't tired (and I had my own thread) I'd take the time to compare one title, DAOC against any modern MMORPG you'd care to name and detail about a dozen features that make the difference between greatness and just being average.
And while somone might say Xyson's a great game, they are being entirely subjective because feature wise the game is lacking, not subjective at all, just simple facts in that example. (as compared to a game like EVE or even DF)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
LOL, and to all these younger MMO players just because you are playing it doesn't mean you're playing a good MMORPG, you just don't realize what you missed.
Cheers
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Unfortunately, it's hard to miss what you've never had. How can one imagine a magnificently grilled steak having grown up with a diet of stale hooves and ears. It's not happening
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Here you go again, taking an in itself subjective opinion as starting point and elevating it to a General Truth. Tsk, you should know better by now, don't you think?
What is considered great or not, is for the most part very subjective and different from one person to the next.
To you, those older MMO's were great and better than current MMO's, because they applied more to what you were looking for in an MMO. To others, they were not, and if the new post-WoW generation of MMO gamers would give a number of them a try now or as they were 1-2 years after their launch and compare them with the newer MMO's they've played, from an EQ to DAoC to AC to SWG, I doubt they would be that impressed and would switch right away to those older MMO's. In fact, I'm pretty certain that most of them would kindly or not so kindly thank for the offer and refrain.
Not that those old MMO's were bad, I certainly don't think so. But different MMO gamers are looking for different things in their MMORPG.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
That is wholly false...^^
You base your ideas that way, because you have not listened to what us historians are telling you. Gameplay and game mechanics were vastly deeper and more diverse than today's games. New games hide those flaws behind animations, or graphics.. or simple don't hid them anymore, because people like you don't even understand what missing in generic NPC encounters as regards to mechanics.
You hide behind that veil of "MMO Maverick" but your title is farthest from the truth. You assume to know what people want, but dismiss that depth of character cannot be what these newer players are yearning, because it is certainly what us older players are begging for again, just with 10 year newer server technology than EQ/DAOC, etc.. (ie: modernise the adult MMOs)
Many of the WoW kids are grown up, they are ready for an in-depth, multi-faceted encounters again... since wow dumb-down the market.
Again, players are yearning for diversity from one another, not this washed up culture of armor sets and tiered armor (how convienant for devs) People want to get into their roles of character and that starts with being able to be DIFFERENT. The carrot on the stick is getting old for them. Ie: wearing the same armor set as the umpteenth next dude.
But what about wearing something nobody ever saw before, etc.
Maverick, you eschew mediocrity in everyone of ur posts.... common denominator mmorpg's are YOUR thing, there are many others that wont let premium MMO die, understand?
So go play WoW or Rift & let us old schoolers alone. Perhaps one day you'll crawl out of the nest & attempt to tread out on ur own, instead of follow the safe path that the next million people behind you will. Safety in number is ur portfolio, it's laughable.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
When Facebook games gobble up the new school gamers dreams, you'll taste the burn of irony in the back of your throat.
You guys act like all these games you played "back in the day" aren't available anymore. More than half of them are, through private servers or their just still there. Stop calling yourselves historians because you played a few games 10 years ago, it just sound rediculous. These games are still around.
You havn't exprienced anything different than I have. I've played EQ and UO. Compared to the amount of polish and balance that today's MMO's offer, these games fall apart. But that's really no suprise because the budget for most of today's average MMO's is much higher than it was back then. So I'm sorry that you all grew up on "a diet of stale hooves and ears" and are now accustomed to that taste but I think I'll sit back and enjoy my fresh new steak while you all QQ at how bad it tastes.
Cheers =]
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
A lot of blabla and wrong assumptions, that's what I read in the largest part of it.
I have no issue at all with oldschool games. It's the nonstop whining of oldschool/sandbox elitists with their tunnelvision that dismisses everything that doesn't fit their very limited taste in MMO's that I find annoying, and then amusing, and then hilarious, and then annoying again. No offense
.
But hey, at least it leads to fun (at least for me) and neverending discussions where I get to poke and prick through the pretentious assumptions and flawed reasoning whenever I see it, so in the end fun for all to be had while forum debating.
'And then you'll know that we were Right. We were right, you fools!'
... oh sorry, I just couldn't resist.
Wrong interpretation, mate, I'm already tasting the irony in this whole debate, and I find it hilarious and a great laugh, the way how some people are drawing wrong conclusions, in their 'grumpy old men vs whippersnappers' way
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Ok here is an opinion from someone who has played rpgs from the beginning and started with Atari, sega etc... And I have played WoW. No I did not get to play MMOs because I was too poor to afford a computer and when I was young there were a lot more important things in my life than video games when Atari came out we got to play once a weekend. After all of the chores were done and everything else.
WoW had awesome questing until Cataclysm, Now I have heard the the new quests from level 1-60 are great but the thing is it that it is all mainstreamed and after so many alts burnout is almost innevitable. You can not avoid it because they put nothing else in to do. It's either all farm and sell so I can be rich or farm for the guild so we can dungeon and raid. Oh wait archeology, hmmm Idk I know it was after a few month break I went back about a month before Cata adn within 3 months after Cata came out I was burnt out again....
WoW was most definately a younger generation game in a lot of ways. Not that some of us older ones did not enjoy the quests but they run out..... I have loremaster from before Cata and for Cata. The original loremaster actually took time. It was not an easy grind and if you like lore there was nothing wrong with going back and doing everything. I came into WoW just in time to miss out on BC. I went back after playing Wotlk so I could experience the game as a whole because that is the kind or game player I am. I don't like missing content. I thoroughly enjoyed doing all of the BC stuff much more of a grind than Wotlk especially after they made everything easymode as far as farming rep went in Wotlk.
IMO where it went wrong with not putting anything in for sidelining during downtime or just needing to relax and enjoy playing a game. Sure I could have gone back and leveld an alt through the new quests. Infact I tried and all I could do everytime I logged in on that alt was stare at the screen.
I have never had an issue making friends before in my life until I played on WoW. It was like stepping onto the twighlight zone of junior highschool. Everyone made fun of each other especially if they were seen as mediocre. Tradechat was not even tradechat it was a mainstream troll line. Once LFG came into play that was all that tradechat ever was anymore. And I have heard that WoW does not have a community issue......... I hate to say this but when you have an MMO full of people no matter what age they are acting like junior high kids you most definately have community issues.
Now as far as I can see and I played 3 months into Cata all that is left is people constantly putting each other down for what they can't do right. You use lfg and get into a heroic and people go as far as the boss they want loot from and then ditch out on the rest of the group, Call each other names, vote to kick someone right before the last boss so that they can bring someone from their guild on that server in or so you can't roll on a soulbound orb..... These are most definatley communication issues and if you will notice the word community is in communication, not lets verbally abuse everyone else so we can feel good about ourselves and make them feel like crap. This is why WoW has community problems.
Everyone had loremaster of Cata within a few weeks or less than 2 months, I was exhalted with every rep within a couple of months. So if they had 10 max level characters there was nothing else left.
IMO WoW was not a bad game when it first came out niether was the lore. Cataclysm itself however has gone WAY downhill. Almost everyone is done with the content other than raids and they ahve not even put out a content patch for new quests or anything. And all they are putting in the next is level 18-20 quests not max level unless the patch notes have changes within the last week.
All I have ever seen them do outside of dungeons as far as adding content during an expansion is mess with everyone's classes so that everyone freaks out and constantly gripes and complains. That is all you ever hear on that game is the gripes about how they are nerfing my class in the next patch or expansion. Not hey guys lets go do this or go do that or lets just have fun and relax. And yet they keep paying and playing and do nothing but gripe and complain LOL.
These are all of course observations I have made and whether or not enyone wants to go play it is up to them for me my accounts have been shut off for over a month already and I am getting sick and tired about hearing about it in almost every thread on the forum. That is exactly one of the reasons I left. Either go or get off the pot one or the other.......
Wrong. Two new dungeons, and a bunch of new (non-daily) quests are avaiable this week.
You, sir, need to pack up your open-mindedness and tolerance for other playstyles and get the frack off our forums. Go peddle your 'great is subjective' voodoo elsewhere!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre