I'll probably be in the minority and say I'll doubly criticize all of you saying "stop judging a game before it came out" and then adding "this will be so great not needing healers" because your criticizing people and ignoring the fact your making a critique too. And frankly regardless of all the criticism that has been presented in this post, the fact is mmo's that rely on a healer class also tend to feature a more system that is morew "party" instead of "lone wolf". Frankly I'm not surprised really on this from these forums because most Americans tend to really fall on the latter and the former.
In fairness if we swap on the Asian forums whether it be sina or whatnot, its more disappointing news as they tend to prefer the former vs. the latter. The one thing that I am certain though is that it makes the game more of an individual~based system because it really is now mostly dependent on DPS and how to best attain this feature.
If you pan down a game to that single feature, it is kind of a bore in a way because your in a sense trying to create a character with an objective of best DPS and what path is best to acheive that. You can't really argue with that fact; I expect to hear "whiners" and "naysayers" but GWs is less about content and more PvP (and DPS effects your PvP). I wouldn't really toss in the "omgz skills still matter" because we're all old enough to know this route and where it'd lead to so let's not...
The one thing that I am certain though is that it makes the game more of an individual~based system because it really is now mostly dependent on DPS and how to best attain this feature.
If you pan down a game to that single feature, it is kind of a bore in a way because your in a sense trying to create a character with an objective of best DPS and what path is best to acheive that. You can't really argue with that fact; I expect to hear "whiners" and "naysayers" but GWs is less about content and more PvP (and DPS effects your PvP). I wouldn't really toss in the "omgz skills still matter" because we're all old enough to know this route and where it'd lead to so let's not...
... GW2 still has a trinity, it's just not heal and taunt based.
If you get a ltitle educated on the subject, you'd understand a little more.
So I really don't have to argue with that fact, because it's not something that pertains to GW2.
Even in their own blog, and from experiences from people I've talked to who played the demo, there's still a focus on a trinity, it just involves support/control rather than directed healing.
Also, just saying... like a football or a soccer game requires WAY more teamwork than an MMO, and they don't have dedicated healers.
Healers may be the method by which some games create teamwork, and some games without them might be devoid of teamwork, but you can't string those two together and get 'Therefore healers = teamwork'
By the way, the last two paragraphs up there? That's not a GW2 thing, that's just a facts of life and game design thing. Yeah, if you took a system that uses a healer and just rip the healer out and don't replace it and use the same system, you've simplified the system, but that's assuming that the holy trinity method of design is the APEX of all possible methods of teamwork. Since you'd be hard pressed to find an example of on the spot dedicated healers outside of a few video games, are you trying to suggest that certain MMOs you like are the end all and be all of teamwork, and all other games and/or real life things are lacking in teamwork in comparison?
It's perfectly possible to design a system from the ground up without needing to lean on healers, and you can even strip the healer out of a holy trinity system and replace it with something else, though that's more awkward and less elegant.
It's perfectly possible to design a system from the ground up without needing to lean on healers, and you can even strip the healer out of a holy trinity system and replace it with something else, though that's more awkward and less elegant.
I think the "WoW Generation" has had the idea ingrained into their heads that MMOs consist of 4 main classes that need tweaking to achieve balance: Tank, Healer, Melee DPS, Distance DPS. It's mostly developers' fault for adhering to it so long that it's essentially an MMO "law of physics".
The very notion that this dynamic doesn't exist is something a lot of gamers will have trouble wrapping their heads around until they play it... just like I read the bitching about the "small number of quickbar slots".
Well the quickbar is being designed from the ground up to adhere to an original system, just like the rest of the game. Not an "original system" like "We took WoW, threw some new art and animations on it and changed class names", but actually original.
That's both exciting and nerve-wracking, as I want it to succeed so badly, yet it's hard to get something like this right on the first try.
I too liked the video, because of the failure. It shows a more realistic vision of what the game will probably mostly be like in the early days. People are going to have to learn to work together, or things are just going to be that much more difficult. If history has taught us anything is that people will whine and complain at anything new, but they'll learn to adapt. n.
That would be ideal, and fun to be a part of. Unfortunately, I see the opposite happening much more. If enough people complain, the devs will make the game easier.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I too liked the video, because of the failure. It shows a more realistic vision of what the game will probably mostly be like in the early days. People are going to have to learn to work together, or things are just going to be that much more difficult. If history has taught us anything is that people will whine and complain at anything new, but they'll learn to adapt. n.
That would be ideal, and fun to be a part of. Unfortunately, I see the opposite happening much more. If enough people complain, the devs will make the game easier.
I'm actually hoping that they'll find a way to implement some sort of 'hard mode' like GW1 had added in after a while.
That would be pretty cool. No idea how it would actually work with everybody running around in the same world now. They could at least do it for dungeons...
I'm actually hoping that they'll find a way to implement some sort of 'hard mode' like GW1 had added in after a while.
That would be pretty cool. No idea how it would actually work with everybody running around in the same world now. They could at least do it for dungeons...
In a panel they said that after you beat dungeons you can go on to play the hard mode diffulculty version of them and made it sound like it was a solid challenge.
I'm actually hoping that they'll find a way to implement some sort of 'hard mode' like GW1 had added in after a while.
That would be pretty cool. No idea how it would actually work with everybody running around in the same world now. They could at least do it for dungeons...
In a panel they said that after you beat dungeons you can go on to play the hard mode diffulculty version of them and made it sound like it was a solid challenge.
Yeah, but what does that leave for DE fans? I mean, I heard some of the higher end DEs are supposed to be hard, but how high does the limit go? :< Questions we'll have to ponder until the game comes out.
Arenanet at least offered some solid challenges in GW1...
... and despite a lot of fussing, they haven't budged on plenty of things like lack of mounts, lack of a traditional healer role, and so on. So hopefully they can just stick to their guns and have a cohesive game design. One in which they design SOME content at least to just be so darn hard that even a good player feels proud beating it.
I'm actually hoping that they'll find a way to implement some sort of 'hard mode' like GW1 had added in after a while.
That would be pretty cool. No idea how it would actually work with everybody running around in the same world now. They could at least do it for dungeons...
In a panel they said that after you beat dungeons you can go on to play the hard mode diffulculty version of them and made it sound like it was a solid challenge.
Yeah, but what does that leave for DE fans? I mean, I heard some of the higher end DEs are supposed to be hard, but how high does the limit go? :< Questions we'll have to ponder until the game comes out.
Arenanet at least offered some solid challenges in GW1...
You can always make it challenging for yourself by wearing crappy gear. That's what I plan to do for some WvWvW PvP lolz, like I always tend to do in skill-based games (e.g. any FPS with customizable loadout).
You can always make it challenging for yourself by wearing crappy gear. That's what I plan to do for some WvWvW PvP lolz, like I always tend to do in skill-based games (e.g. any FPS with customizable loadout).
Haha, like those crazy people 'I'm going to beat Final Fantasy (insert number here), but only with white mages! GRAR.
I don't think I'm motivated enough to gimp myself horribly for a challenge.
I do like picking unconventional builds, but I don't like making BAD ones, just... ones that cater to amusing me.
I really liked the playstyle of the GW1 monk, but most healer classes in most games are incredibly boring as they basically are stuck watching healthbars.
I am excited to see GW2 going in a different direction and spreading things out. It would be nice to be able to play whatever class I want and still be viable in most groups.
Also, just saying... like a football or a soccer game requires WAY more teamwork than an MMO, and they don't have dedicated healers.
in soccer healers coming out just to resurect players,but in gw2 every1 can do that xD
Wait a minute here, what soccer are you watching? The soccer I've seen is very boring to watch(not because of low scores either). I have never seen an instance where someone needed resurected, not even stitches. Is this soccer you watch illegal in most countries?
I think this thread should say good riddance to tanks and healers. I won't be losing any sleep with them gone. In fact now that I'll be able to play when I want and not have to wait long periods of time for healers and tanks at all nours I will probably get more sleep if I want it.
Also, just saying... like a football or a soccer game requires WAY more teamwork than an MMO, and they don't have dedicated healers.
in soccer healers coming out just to resurect players,but in gw2 every1 can do that xD
Wait a minute here, what soccer are you watching? The soccer I've seen is very boring to watch(not because of low scores either). I have never seen an instance where someone needed resurected, not even stitches. Is this soccer you watch illegal in most countries?
Any sport will boring to watch if you are not interested in it.
But people are missing his point. There are numerous activities that require more teamwork to be successful than an mmo, and none of them have a "healer".
I actually asked myself this question, to try to find a solution to a problem that a minority were having in Champions Online, that they felt that the open world content was too easy. A lof of solutions were presented to them - such as using lesser gear and gimped builds, but nothing worked. What they wanted was an official solution, and something that would have some kind of title for it, because people love to show off their gaming skills. Now how do you go about implementing something like that?
This is where I got an idea, and this was before I even knew about Guild Wars 2's scaling (and this is where this whole post will become relevant, so stick with me, here, and I promise I'll get to the point as expediently as I can). My clever little idea was to simply do what everyone was suggesting - scale people down, but make it official. Essentially, you'd have more powerful powers locked out on the hardest difficulty, and on the easier ones your power output and reistances to damage would be slightly to hugely reduced, based on the difficulty setting.
What about rewards? Well, you could get titles for pulling these insae feats off, and on the hardest difficulty you'd even get titles backed up with costume parts, perhaps the sorts of costume parts that one normally has to grind a lot for - so you have a choice: you can either grind a lot for them, or do a difficult task to get them. The only problem with this though is that Champions Online isn't structured to allow this sort of thing easily, they'd have to redesign a lot of how their game works. But here's the fun part: Guild Wars 2 is.
The titles could come from completing dynamic events, and the scaling is already there - if you head into level 20 content as a level 80, you get scaled down. So personal scaling in the open world, or more specifically, in dynamic events already happens! So perhaps it could work like this:
Normal: No scaling; No difficulty based titles.
Hard: 20% reduction in output and resistances; Title reward.
Very Hard: 35% reduction in output and resistances; Title reward and bonus karma.
Extremely Hard: 50% reduction in output and resistances; Better title reward and double the bonus karma of VH.
Elite: 50% reduction, elite skill disabled, some weapon skills disabled; Same as EH, better title, and a cosmetic reward.
This would be balanced by a participation gauge that's increasingly more harsh with each difficulty setting, so with each step up, you really have to work that much harder in order to keep your participation gauge up. So you might beat the event on Elite, but if you did negligible damage then you won't get the reward because your participation wouldn't have been enough. This means that only the best of the best can play on Elite, no pretences about being 'the best' here. You'd need more than just gear, skills, and time. You'd actually have to properly manage your own contribution to an event.
If you really wanted to make it insane, on EH and E, you could have single-target mob abilities that only targeted those on those difficulty settings, so you'd see people getting hit by stuff that was relevant to their difficulty. The area of effect stuff would still be the same, but every now and then you'd be hit by something that would outright kill you if you're not careful/clever. And I think that all of this could work, since in order to get tangible rewards, there should be real difficulty there to back it up.
Specialised attacks would be one way of letting other players know what difficulty setting others are working on now, so people can either choose to lend an extra helping hand to those people, or not to, however they like. It'll also make it more amazing when you see a small group come into a dynamic event, with all of them set to E, and they actually manage to do some decent damage to the Shatterer, that's going to be impressive.
I doubt anything like this will be in there, it's just a suggestion, and as is often the case with my suggestions, there are probably holes in this. But it's a start, yeah?
(I'm tempted to turn this into its own thread. *coughs.* Might work better than way rather than hijacking this one.)
Also, just saying... like a football or a soccer game requires WAY more teamwork than an MMO, and they don't have dedicated healers.
in soccer healers coming out just to resurect players,but in gw2 every1 can do that xD
Wait a minute here, what soccer are you watching? The soccer I've seen is very boring to watch(not because of low scores either). I have never seen an instance where someone needed resurected, not even stitches. Is this soccer you watch illegal in most countries?
I think this thread should say good riddance to tanks and healers. I won't be losing any sleep with them gone. In fact now that I'll be able to play when I want and not have to wait long periods of time for healers and tanks at all nours I will probably get more sleep if I want it.
that was about diving.i like football and im looking forward to watch MU vs Barcelona Champions league final.back to thread,i like the changes arenanet has brought to the game.I wont miss healers and tanks and i can see a lot of ppl will have at list 1support skill on their skillbar to be usedful for the party
Am I the only one that enjoys playing a healer? lol... i just enjoyed in DAoC RvR playing healer, keeping everyone alive and getting the satisfaction of knowing if it wasn't for me we would all be dead... unlike a DPS that can't really say if he was the only reason for the group surviving most of the time... I normally know if I was the main reason for us winning battles... and in DAoC I don't really think it was a wack a mole style play... normally the entire enemy group was trying to kill me while I was trying to keep my entire group alive... so I think it was a good challenge, and i enjoyed it..
What is a good class for this in GW2? i like to play full support... dont care much about DPS or anything... just like to help out a group and keep everyone alive
Am I the only one that enjoys playing a healer? lol... i just enjoyed in DAoC RvR playing healer, keeping everyone alive and getting the satisfaction of knowing if it wasn't for me we would all be dead... unlike a DPS that can't really say if he was the only reason for the group surviving most of the time... I normally know if I was the main reason for us winning battles... and in DAoC I don't really think it was a wack a mole style play... normally the entire enemy group was trying to kill me while I was trying to keep my entire group alive... so I think it was a good challenge, and i enjoyed it..
What is a good class for this in GW2? i like to play full support... dont care much about DPS or anything... just like to help out a group and keep everyone alive
Definately a Elemetalist/Necro, Elementalist is more support, however, the Necro can be very fun to play.
Everyone in Gw2 plays a role in healing, even a tank can heal you. So, pick what you want to play, and you can revive/heal at any given time, while enjoying the action.
Maybe set up a group/guild that when you do dynamic events, you can be the one dependant on going around healing, nothing says you cant, so enjoy the action
if you want to play support go guardian, They mass blind the enemy, have the ability to dispel both debuffs and buffs on a mass scale, have ability to give your allies the ability to block an attack, lots of forcefields and area denial, small amounts of heal regen, ability to apply protective/offensive boons to allies, have abilities that make your team immune to knockback, etc. No profession currently has such a defensive/support role like the guardian, hell it is even in their name.
Healing may be gone but a successful support guardian will make it so their team takes barely any damage. In GW2 there is no ally target abilities, every support ability effects every player around you. Support in GW2 is about managing a group not individual players.
It featured a system where healers were necessary, and usually they weren't nice people, very rarely so in fact, and you needed a team of six with a healer to do anything. So what did this mean? I needed certain people on my party whether I liked it or not. I had to listen to them making nasty homophobic, racist, and misogynist comments and I couldn't just get pissed off at them because I'd get dumped from the party. So what happened in XI is that you had the dregs of humanity, the worst of the worst, the psychopaths, the sociopaths, the real nutjobs with no end of hate speech, using healers as a tool to force people to team up with them.
Grats on what is quite possibly the most absurd straw man in the history of the internet.
Grats on perfectly illustrating an example of How to Make Pointless Comments on the Internet 101. Anyone can say something, and without actual reasoning to back it up, it just comes across as sound and fury signifying nothing. For someone to attempt to troll like that, well... I must have really hit a nerve. And for that to happen, I must have been speaking the trusth.
You were so flustered that you even screwed up the quoting. >_>
You substitute healers for "the dregs of humanity, the worst of the worst, the psychopaths, the sociopaths, the real nutjobs with no end of hate speech". Your entire argument is based on your misrepresentation of healers as sociopaths. This is a straw man fallacy.
And seeing as how "the dregs of humanity, the worst of the worst, the psychopaths, the sociopaths, the real nutjobs with no end of hate speech" isn't even superficially similair to healers it's the most absurd straw man in the history of the internet.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Actually it takes strength of character and maturity to play a healer, thus not many people do it. First, because it's one of the two jobs that hold responsibility in the trinity and people are generally aversed to responsibilities. Second, because healers are more than often subjected to abuse, sometimes justified, most of the times not, while having to perform that stressful role in the party.
When you sacrifice your precious ego boost to support a party instead of being the big hero, it is not a sign of sociopath or whatever that fellow came up with, but a sign of a caring person, a person that does put the team first and himself second. There are bad apples everywhere, but the majority of the people playing healers were people you would easily hang out with in your RL.
It featured a system where healers were necessary, and usually they weren't nice people, very rarely so in fact, and you needed a team of six with a healer to do anything. So what did this mean? I needed certain people on my party whether I liked it or not. I had to listen to them making nasty homophobic, racist, and misogynist comments and I couldn't just get pissed off at them because I'd get dumped from the party. So what happened in XI is that you had the dregs of humanity, the worst of the worst, the psychopaths, the sociopaths, the real nutjobs with no end of hate speech, using healers as a tool to force people to team up with them.
Grats on what is quite possibly the most absurd straw man in the history of the internet.
Grats on perfectly illustrating an example of How to Make Pointless Comments on the Internet 101. Anyone can say something, and without actual reasoning to back it up, it just comes across as sound and fury signifying nothing. For someone to attempt to troll like that, well... I must have really hit a nerve. And for that to happen, I must have been speaking the trusth.
You were so flustered that you even screwed up the quoting. >_>
You substitute healers for "the dregs of humanity, the worst of the worst, the psychopaths, the sociopaths, the real nutjobs with no end of hate speech". Your entire argument is based on your misrepresentation of healers as sociopaths. This is a straw man fallacy.
And seeing as how "the dregs of humanity, the worst of the worst, the psychopaths, the sociopaths, the real nutjobs with no end of hate speech" isn't even superficially similair to healers it's the most absurd straw man in the history of the internet.
Straw Man back at'cha, because I didn't, that's a lie. I said that some people who're like that use healing as a clutch, you're saying that I say that all people who pick healers are like that (which I did not). So you've got yourself a Straw Man there right off the bat, and that makes you a massive hypocrite.
I hate it when people call a fallacy and then use the same damn fallacy to build up their own argument.
And it's not absurd to think that some people use a mechanic to force other people to group with them because they don't know how to ask other people how to group with them. As I pointed out, in FF XI I encountered some really horrible White Mages, they used the White Mage class because people needed White Mages, and when you're out in the field in FF XI, you can't just boot a White Mage from the team, that's like asking for death.
So next time get your head in the game, and don't use the fallacies that you're accusing someone else of using, because that makes you more absurd than the person you're arguing with, a bit of a joke, and a hypocrite to boot.
If you're going to argue with me, you need to do better, or pick yourself an easier target for your fallacious fallacy flinging.
It featured a system where healers were necessary, and usually they weren't nice people, very rarely so in fact, and you needed a team of six with a healer to do anything. So what did this mean? I needed certain people on my party whether I liked it or not. I had to listen to them making nasty homophobic, racist, and misogynist comments and I couldn't just get pissed off at them because I'd get dumped from the party. So what happened in XI is that you had the dregs of humanity, the worst of the worst, the psychopaths, the sociopaths, the real nutjobs with no end of hate speech, using healers as a tool to force people to team up with them.
Grats on what is quite possibly the most absurd straw man in the history of the internet.
Grats on perfectly illustrating an example of How to Make Pointless Comments on the Internet 101. Anyone can say something, and without actual reasoning to back it up, it just comes across as sound and fury signifying nothing. For someone to attempt to troll like that, well... I must have really hit a nerve. And for that to happen, I must have been speaking the trusth.
You were so flustered that you even screwed up the quoting. >_>
You substitute healers for "the dregs of humanity, the worst of the worst, the psychopaths, the sociopaths, the real nutjobs with no end of hate speech". Your entire argument is based on your misrepresentation of healers as sociopaths. This is a straw man fallacy.
And seeing as how "the dregs of humanity, the worst of the worst, the psychopaths, the sociopaths, the real nutjobs with no end of hate speech" isn't even superficially similair to healers it's the most absurd straw man in the history of the internet.
Straw Man back at'cha, because I didn't, that's a lie. I said that some people who're like that use healing as a clutch, you're saying that I say that all people who pick healers are like that (which I did not). So you've got yourself a Straw Man there right off the bat, and that makes you a massive hypocrite.
I hate it when people call a fallacy and then use the same damn fallacy to build up their own argument.
And it's not absurd to think that some people use a mechanic to force other people to group with them because they don't know how to ask other people how to group with them. As I pointed out, in FF XI I encountered some really horrible White Mages, they used the White Mage class because people needed White Mages, and when you're out in the field in FF XI, you can't just boot a White Mage from the team, that's like asking for death.
So next time get your head in the game, and don't use the fallacies that you're accusing someone else of using, because that makes you more absurd than the person you're arguing with, a bit of a joke, and a hypocrite to boot.
If you're going to argue with me, you need to do better, or pick yourself an easier target for your fallacious fallacy flinging.
(Clarification.)
It doesn't have to be all. A large majority, like you did say, is more then enough.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
The only person that says 'huge majority' in the last 10 pages is you. Yes, I went back to check.
Straw Man much?
You're just a massive hypocrite and a very self-contradictory person. I'm ignoring you now. You're not worth my time if you're going to peddle BS at me.
*sigh* yeah let's switch over to name-calling and ignoring......
If healers are, as you said, very rarely nice people then you're implying ( reinforced by the rest of that post ) that the huge majority are ( again from your post ) "the dregs of humanity, the worst of the worst, the psychopaths, the sociopaths, the real nutjobs with no end of hate speech".
And my argument, even if wrong, is not a straw man. I'm not misrepresenting any part of your argument. I'm not substituting any part of your argument with something superficially similair.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
I'm sorry for those of you who endured the bad behavior of a healer. No one should ever use their class as leverage in a group. It is a group effort after all.
That being said I enjoy playing a support role. It is very gratifying keeping my team alive. I was a GvG monk for over two years and have yet to surpass that experience within any other game. It never had anything to do with being singled out as better than anyone else or using the position to make demands. It was just the thrill of keeping my team alive. I will miss it in GW2! My greatest fear for GW2 is that all classes will lack distinctivmess. I don't want GW2 to be turned into an FPS.
Finally stop pretending healers are the only class with attitude problems. I've met and dealt with aragant and annoying tanks, and DPS. In fact most of the time as a healer you bite your tounge when a warrior over extends or a soft DPS refuses to kite damage. It is not the class floks, but the people who play them.
Comments
I'll probably be in the minority and say I'll doubly criticize all of you saying "stop judging a game before it came out" and then adding "this will be so great not needing healers" because your criticizing people and ignoring the fact your making a critique too. And frankly regardless of all the criticism that has been presented in this post, the fact is mmo's that rely on a healer class also tend to feature a more system that is morew "party" instead of "lone wolf". Frankly I'm not surprised really on this from these forums because most Americans tend to really fall on the latter and the former.
In fairness if we swap on the Asian forums whether it be sina or whatnot, its more disappointing news as they tend to prefer the former vs. the latter. The one thing that I am certain though is that it makes the game more of an individual~based system because it really is now mostly dependent on DPS and how to best attain this feature.
If you pan down a game to that single feature, it is kind of a bore in a way because your in a sense trying to create a character with an objective of best DPS and what path is best to acheive that. You can't really argue with that fact; I expect to hear "whiners" and "naysayers" but GWs is less about content and more PvP (and DPS effects your PvP). I wouldn't really toss in the "omgz skills still matter" because we're all old enough to know this route and where it'd lead to so let's not...
... GW2 still has a trinity, it's just not heal and taunt based.
If you get a ltitle educated on the subject, you'd understand a little more.
So I really don't have to argue with that fact, because it's not something that pertains to GW2.
Even in their own blog, and from experiences from people I've talked to who played the demo, there's still a focus on a trinity, it just involves support/control rather than directed healing.
Also, just saying... like a football or a soccer game requires WAY more teamwork than an MMO, and they don't have dedicated healers.
Healers may be the method by which some games create teamwork, and some games without them might be devoid of teamwork, but you can't string those two together and get 'Therefore healers = teamwork'
By the way, the last two paragraphs up there? That's not a GW2 thing, that's just a facts of life and game design thing. Yeah, if you took a system that uses a healer and just rip the healer out and don't replace it and use the same system, you've simplified the system, but that's assuming that the holy trinity method of design is the APEX of all possible methods of teamwork. Since you'd be hard pressed to find an example of on the spot dedicated healers outside of a few video games, are you trying to suggest that certain MMOs you like are the end all and be all of teamwork, and all other games and/or real life things are lacking in teamwork in comparison?
It's perfectly possible to design a system from the ground up without needing to lean on healers, and you can even strip the healer out of a holy trinity system and replace it with something else, though that's more awkward and less elegant.
I think the "WoW Generation" has had the idea ingrained into their heads that MMOs consist of 4 main classes that need tweaking to achieve balance: Tank, Healer, Melee DPS, Distance DPS. It's mostly developers' fault for adhering to it so long that it's essentially an MMO "law of physics".
The very notion that this dynamic doesn't exist is something a lot of gamers will have trouble wrapping their heads around until they play it... just like I read the bitching about the "small number of quickbar slots".
Well the quickbar is being designed from the ground up to adhere to an original system, just like the rest of the game. Not an "original system" like "We took WoW, threw some new art and animations on it and changed class names", but actually original.
That's both exciting and nerve-wracking, as I want it to succeed so badly, yet it's hard to get something like this right on the first try.
And in MMOs, first impressions are everything.
That would be ideal, and fun to be a part of. Unfortunately, I see the opposite happening much more. If enough people complain, the devs will make the game easier.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I'm actually hoping that they'll find a way to implement some sort of 'hard mode' like GW1 had added in after a while.
That would be pretty cool. No idea how it would actually work with everybody running around in the same world now. They could at least do it for dungeons...
In a panel they said that after you beat dungeons you can go on to play the hard mode diffulculty version of them and made it sound like it was a solid challenge.
Yeah, but what does that leave for DE fans? I mean, I heard some of the higher end DEs are supposed to be hard, but how high does the limit go? :< Questions we'll have to ponder until the game comes out.
Arenanet at least offered some solid challenges in GW1...
... and despite a lot of fussing, they haven't budged on plenty of things like lack of mounts, lack of a traditional healer role, and so on. So hopefully they can just stick to their guns and have a cohesive game design. One in which they design SOME content at least to just be so darn hard that even a good player feels proud beating it.
You can always make it challenging for yourself by wearing crappy gear. That's what I plan to do for some WvWvW PvP lolz, like I always tend to do in skill-based games (e.g. any FPS with customizable loadout).
Haha, like those crazy people 'I'm going to beat Final Fantasy (insert number here), but only with white mages! GRAR.
I don't think I'm motivated enough to gimp myself horribly for a challenge.
I do like picking unconventional builds, but I don't like making BAD ones, just... ones that cater to amusing me.
I really liked the playstyle of the GW1 monk, but most healer classes in most games are incredibly boring as they basically are stuck watching healthbars.
I am excited to see GW2 going in a different direction and spreading things out. It would be nice to be able to play whatever class I want and still be viable in most groups.
in soccer healers coming out just to resurect players,but in gw2 every1 can do that xD
Wait a minute here, what soccer are you watching? The soccer I've seen is very boring to watch(not because of low scores either). I have never seen an instance where someone needed resurected, not even stitches. Is this soccer you watch illegal in most countries?
I think this thread should say good riddance to tanks and healers. I won't be losing any sleep with them gone. In fact now that I'll be able to play when I want and not have to wait long periods of time for healers and tanks at all nours I will probably get more sleep if I want it.
Any sport will boring to watch if you are not interested in it.
But people are missing his point. There are numerous activities that require more teamwork to be successful than an mmo, and none of them have a "healer".
@Meowhead
How could an open-world difficulty setting work?
Good question!
I actually asked myself this question, to try to find a solution to a problem that a minority were having in Champions Online, that they felt that the open world content was too easy. A lof of solutions were presented to them - such as using lesser gear and gimped builds, but nothing worked. What they wanted was an official solution, and something that would have some kind of title for it, because people love to show off their gaming skills. Now how do you go about implementing something like that?
This is where I got an idea, and this was before I even knew about Guild Wars 2's scaling (and this is where this whole post will become relevant, so stick with me, here, and I promise I'll get to the point as expediently as I can). My clever little idea was to simply do what everyone was suggesting - scale people down, but make it official. Essentially, you'd have more powerful powers locked out on the hardest difficulty, and on the easier ones your power output and reistances to damage would be slightly to hugely reduced, based on the difficulty setting.
What about rewards? Well, you could get titles for pulling these insae feats off, and on the hardest difficulty you'd even get titles backed up with costume parts, perhaps the sorts of costume parts that one normally has to grind a lot for - so you have a choice: you can either grind a lot for them, or do a difficult task to get them. The only problem with this though is that Champions Online isn't structured to allow this sort of thing easily, they'd have to redesign a lot of how their game works. But here's the fun part: Guild Wars 2 is.
The titles could come from completing dynamic events, and the scaling is already there - if you head into level 20 content as a level 80, you get scaled down. So personal scaling in the open world, or more specifically, in dynamic events already happens! So perhaps it could work like this:
Normal: No scaling; No difficulty based titles.
Hard: 20% reduction in output and resistances; Title reward.
Very Hard: 35% reduction in output and resistances; Title reward and bonus karma.
Extremely Hard: 50% reduction in output and resistances; Better title reward and double the bonus karma of VH.
Elite: 50% reduction, elite skill disabled, some weapon skills disabled; Same as EH, better title, and a cosmetic reward.
This would be balanced by a participation gauge that's increasingly more harsh with each difficulty setting, so with each step up, you really have to work that much harder in order to keep your participation gauge up. So you might beat the event on Elite, but if you did negligible damage then you won't get the reward because your participation wouldn't have been enough. This means that only the best of the best can play on Elite, no pretences about being 'the best' here. You'd need more than just gear, skills, and time. You'd actually have to properly manage your own contribution to an event.
If you really wanted to make it insane, on EH and E, you could have single-target mob abilities that only targeted those on those difficulty settings, so you'd see people getting hit by stuff that was relevant to their difficulty. The area of effect stuff would still be the same, but every now and then you'd be hit by something that would outright kill you if you're not careful/clever. And I think that all of this could work, since in order to get tangible rewards, there should be real difficulty there to back it up.
Specialised attacks would be one way of letting other players know what difficulty setting others are working on now, so people can either choose to lend an extra helping hand to those people, or not to, however they like. It'll also make it more amazing when you see a small group come into a dynamic event, with all of them set to E, and they actually manage to do some decent damage to the Shatterer, that's going to be impressive.
I doubt anything like this will be in there, it's just a suggestion, and as is often the case with my suggestions, there are probably holes in this. But it's a start, yeah?
(I'm tempted to turn this into its own thread. *coughs.* Might work better than way rather than hijacking this one.)
that was about diving.i like football and im looking forward to watch MU vs Barcelona Champions league final.back to thread,i like the changes arenanet has brought to the game.I wont miss healers and tanks and i can see a lot of ppl will have at list 1support skill on their skillbar to be usedful for the party
Am I the only one that enjoys playing a healer? lol... i just enjoyed in DAoC RvR playing healer, keeping everyone alive and getting the satisfaction of knowing if it wasn't for me we would all be dead... unlike a DPS that can't really say if he was the only reason for the group surviving most of the time... I normally know if I was the main reason for us winning battles... and in DAoC I don't really think it was a wack a mole style play... normally the entire enemy group was trying to kill me while I was trying to keep my entire group alive... so I think it was a good challenge, and i enjoyed it..
What is a good class for this in GW2? i like to play full support... dont care much about DPS or anything... just like to help out a group and keep everyone alive
Definately a Elemetalist/Necro, Elementalist is more support, however, the Necro can be very fun to play.
Everyone in Gw2 plays a role in healing, even a tank can heal you. So, pick what you want to play, and you can revive/heal at any given time, while enjoying the action.
Maybe set up a group/guild that when you do dynamic events, you can be the one dependant on going around healing, nothing says you cant, so enjoy the action
if you want to play support go guardian, They mass blind the enemy, have the ability to dispel both debuffs and buffs on a mass scale, have ability to give your allies the ability to block an attack, lots of forcefields and area denial, small amounts of heal regen, ability to apply protective/offensive boons to allies, have abilities that make your team immune to knockback, etc. No profession currently has such a defensive/support role like the guardian, hell it is even in their name.
Healing may be gone but a successful support guardian will make it so their team takes barely any damage. In GW2 there is no ally target abilities, every support ability effects every player around you. Support in GW2 is about managing a group not individual players.
Same with tanks. Good riddance to tanks!
Let's make all classes non-important in a group so it dosent' matter what do you pick.
Sounds like a much better design.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
Straw Man.
You substitute healers for "the dregs of humanity, the worst of the worst, the psychopaths, the sociopaths, the real nutjobs with no end of hate speech". Your entire argument is based on your misrepresentation of healers as sociopaths. This is a straw man fallacy.
And seeing as how "the dregs of humanity, the worst of the worst, the psychopaths, the sociopaths, the real nutjobs with no end of hate speech" isn't even superficially similair to healers it's the most absurd straw man in the history of the internet.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Actually it takes strength of character and maturity to play a healer, thus not many people do it. First, because it's one of the two jobs that hold responsibility in the trinity and people are generally aversed to responsibilities. Second, because healers are more than often subjected to abuse, sometimes justified, most of the times not, while having to perform that stressful role in the party.
When you sacrifice your precious ego boost to support a party instead of being the big hero, it is not a sign of sociopath or whatever that fellow came up with, but a sign of a caring person, a person that does put the team first and himself second. There are bad apples everywhere, but the majority of the people playing healers were people you would easily hang out with in your RL.
Straw Man back at'cha, because I didn't, that's a lie. I said that some people who're like that use healing as a clutch, you're saying that I say that all people who pick healers are like that (which I did not). So you've got yourself a Straw Man there right off the bat, and that makes you a massive hypocrite.
I hate it when people call a fallacy and then use the same damn fallacy to build up their own argument.
And it's not absurd to think that some people use a mechanic to force other people to group with them because they don't know how to ask other people how to group with them. As I pointed out, in FF XI I encountered some really horrible White Mages, they used the White Mage class because people needed White Mages, and when you're out in the field in FF XI, you can't just boot a White Mage from the team, that's like asking for death.
So next time get your head in the game, and don't use the fallacies that you're accusing someone else of using, because that makes you more absurd than the person you're arguing with, a bit of a joke, and a hypocrite to boot.
If you're going to argue with me, you need to do better, or pick yourself an easier target for your fallacious fallacy flinging.
(Clarification.)
It doesn't have to be all. A large majority, like you did say, is more then enough.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
*sigh* yeah let's switch over to name-calling and ignoring......
If healers are, as you said, very rarely nice people then you're implying ( reinforced by the rest of that post ) that the huge majority are ( again from your post ) "the dregs of humanity, the worst of the worst, the psychopaths, the sociopaths, the real nutjobs with no end of hate speech".
And my argument, even if wrong, is not a straw man. I'm not misrepresenting any part of your argument. I'm not substituting any part of your argument with something superficially similair.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
I'm sorry for those of you who endured the bad behavior of a healer. No one should ever use their class as leverage in a group. It is a group effort after all.
That being said I enjoy playing a support role. It is very gratifying keeping my team alive. I was a GvG monk for over two years and have yet to surpass that experience within any other game. It never had anything to do with being singled out as better than anyone else or using the position to make demands. It was just the thrill of keeping my team alive. I will miss it in GW2! My greatest fear for GW2 is that all classes will lack distinctivmess. I don't want GW2 to be turned into an FPS.
Finally stop pretending healers are the only class with attitude problems. I've met and dealt with aragant and annoying tanks, and DPS. In fact most of the time as a healer you bite your tounge when a warrior over extends or a soft DPS refuses to kite damage. It is not the class floks, but the people who play them.
Later